Land Rover Owner Message Digest Contents

[ First Message Last | Table of Contents | <- Digest -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Send Submissions Land-Rover-Owner@Land-Rover.Team.Net

From: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:29:09 -0500
Subject: RE: How many amps in the fuse

Luis,

Our friend with the math disability makes a good point - when your battery is
down the current is going to rise past the 20-amp level. Now, most fuses are
designed to go 110% overcurrent for at least an hour before blowing out, but in
this case perhaps better safe than sorry. If you're in a situation where having
the lights is a real issue, you don't want to take the chance of the silly fuse
blowing out.

I think he's right - maybe a 25-amp fuse for the lights might be a better idea,
as my calculations were based on 13.8 from a running vehicle. The extra fusing
won't be a problem - if it shorts the fuse will go in seconds in either case.

               ajr

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:44:19 EST
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings(no flame)

In a message dated 98-11-24 05:00:39 EST, you write:

<<  With the axle at the bump stop the angle formed by the
 shackle plate and main leaf is 30 degrees.  At full travel (against the
 limiting strap) the angle is 75 degrees.   That is a change of 45 degrees
 over the full travel.  >>
 
     The total movement of the shackles "stop to strap" may be 45 degrees, but
that is only 22.5 degrees in either direction.  That is not very much, really.
And the 1/8th inch of rubber in the bushing is actually more than enough when
you consider that the actual distance which 22.5 degrees represents at the
pivot.
      The fact that you are getting wear on your shackles tells me that
something is wrong, even if that wear is only a groove being worn into the
side of it.  If tighten your shackles, you will experience no wear.
     As far as having loose shackles to improve articulation, I believe this
is one of those concepts which seems to make sense but which does not hold
water.  The unsprung weight of a Land Rover is more than enough to overcome
the resistance of the rubber in the bushing.  For sure the sprung weight will
overcome the resistance.  This is why the vehicle must be place on it's wheels
before tightening the shackles.  Otherwise, the first time the spring
compresses, the rubber will tear because the shackle will at that time
approach 45 degrees relative to where it was tightened (if wheels up), and as
you have correctly stated, 45 degrees is just too much to expext.

Thanks for getting my brain going this morning
enzo

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:48:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Rear axle leaking

Luis Manuel Gutierrez wrote:

> Before I went on my -almost- holiday trip to the caribbean (yea, right!), I
> took the the precaution of disconnecting the bateries, just to be sure it
> would crank up just right when I got back.
> Well, just that it did, BUT it had a 'little' surprise for me:
> It had a little pond of infamous 90wt out of the rear right side, on the
> outside of the wheel. It wasn't leaking before I parked. And, after I began
> moving it it bace obvious that it has an EXXON-Baldez tendency.
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
> It missed you! Land Rovers are a lot like puppies. If they feel neglected
> they will engage in bad behavior.

If you go away in future you must arrange someone to take it for "walkies"
   John and Muddy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:57:00 EST
Subject: Re: HELP!  Valve Adjusting!

Valves clack, even when adjusted perfectly.  Perhaps you are listening closely
to it for the first time.  Bring it to a gas station with a mechaninc on duty
and ask him to give it a listen.  He'll tell you if it's too loud.  If he
thinks it is, check them again and see if the lock nuts have loosened.
Happens sometimes.

enzo

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:58:16 -0400
Subject: articulation and those dreaded bushings

Thinking carefully now, if your landie can bend those big ole springs
will a little bit of rubber stop it articulating?
John and Muddy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Garrick Brett Olsen <gbolsen@allina.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 06:57:45 PST
Subject: Generator

This seems simple, but I'm sure I'm missing something...

I've been tinkering with my "NEW" 1961 Ser II.  It had lots of original parts 
in it including 
the transmission oil!!

My generator is pooped. (Outputting 0 volts at idle. Gen light now stays on- 
used to go off over 
idle.  Lights dimmed and motor stopped. New battery- limped home.)  Gotta have 
a rebuild.

Can't get the damn thing off!!!!

I've got the top bolt off and the tensioner bar bolt is loosened.  The nut at 
the bottom front 
is off and all it does is rotate toward and away from the block!  I even tried 
taking out the 
two bolts that are in the piece of some mounting metal below the generator and 
got no further 
slack.  There does not feel to be a bolt behind and below the generator.  

The Haynes and another Manual say "loosen and lift out", but I don't see how to 
get around the 
threaded mount sticking out of the front-below!!!

Which fastener am I missing?

-Rik
Name: Garrick Brett Olsen
E-mail: Garrick Brett Olsen <gbolsen@allina.com>
Date: 11/24/98
Time: 6:57:45 AM

This message was sent by Chameleon 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Bas <9318860@law-fs3.leidenuniv.nl>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:16:31 +0100
Subject: Brake problem

I have a problem with my brakes. After driving for maybe 15 minutes
and using the brakes firmly about 20 times, all the wheeles slowly
lock up. When I release a few drops off brake fluid from a wheel I can
hear the brake-shoes from all the wheels coming back to the right positions.
In other words, there is building up more and more fluid in the system and
its not flowing back to the reservoir.

Its clear there is something wrong with the master-clinder/brake
servo, but what?

Thanks.

Bas Timmers
Holland

88 '74
88 '75

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:30:18 EST
Subject: Re: Generator

In a message dated 11/24/98 8:17:12 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gbolsen@allina.com writes:

> Which fastener am I missing?

There is a threaded rod with nuts on both sides (originally) whichis at the
back end of the genny low.  The rod goes through a bracket on the block.  If
the rearmost nut is removed, the rod cannot be removed--too long.  It will
foul against the front bracket.  Back it out far enough so the rear of the
genny will clear it.  On my rover, I replaced that rod with a really long bolt
which I ran through both sets of lower brackets...much easier to remove.

Get in there with a bright light...you'll see what I'm talking about.

Nate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:31:38 EST
Subject: Re: Brake problem

In a message dated 11/24/98 8:24:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, 9318860@law-
fs3.leidenuniv.nl writes:

> Its clear there is something wrong with the master-clinder/brake
>  servo, but what?

Possibly deterioted flex lines which are acting like one way valves.

Nate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Philip and Aimee Houser <pahouser@fidnet.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:16:53 -0600
Subject: Re: How many amps can fit in a fuse

- Power (Watts) = Volts x Amps so the amperage of that circuit would be
- 260 Watts/ 12 volts or 21.7 Amps. You should size the fuse larger, say 30
-amps
- to avoid burning the fuse every time the lights are turned on.
-
-Er...Um...Ah...Yeah, 12 volts NOMINAL! ..... Never mind.
-
-Bill (I really did pass that class) Lawrence
-Albq, Nm

Correct, a nominal 12 volts... which translates to up to 15 volts in a
nominal car.  However, for the above calculation, using 12 volts
automatically adds in a "safety margin" for your fuse size selection.  I
would use a 25 amp, myself.

I was once told that ceramic fuses were capable of higher amp ratings than
the glass ones because "more amps could hide in there.  Amps are afraid of
the light, you see.  That is why wires have that plastic coating on them."
This scared me 'cause I _think_ he was serious!!

		Philip, LR-less, and now late for work :)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Philip and Aimee Houser <pahouser@fidnet.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:30:41 -0600
Subject: RE: How many amps in the fuse

=Luis,
=
=Our friend with the math disability makes a good point - when your battery is
=down the current is going to rise past the 20-amp level.

Um, no, not quite.  This would be true if the power (wattts) stayed
constant with changing voltage.  It is actually the resistance (ohms) of
the light will stay fairly constant and the current will proprtionally
follow the voltage as it changes.  (volts = amps x ohms)   Since watts is
volts x amps, it too will change.  You can find the resistance from the
power with;  volts x volts/ watts = ohms

Hope this is at least slightly clear....  :-b

=Now, most fuses are
=designed to go 110% overcurrent for at least an hour before blowing out,
but in
=this case perhaps better safe than sorry. If you're in a situation where
having
=the lights is a real issue, you don't want to take the chance of the silly
fuse
=blowing out.
=
=               ajr

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:35:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Brake problem

OK - could be 2 or three things.

1. Check the adjustment of the brake pedal and its pushrod. If the pushrod is
out of adjustment (there's no slack at the top of the pedal stroke), the fluid
may not release from the hydraulics and you'll get the exact symptom you
describe.

2. The master cylinder may be bad, causing the same problem.

3. What kind of shape is the fluid in? Could be you have particles floating
around clogging the fluid port to the reservoir, though this is a pretty long
shot.

Of the three, I'd check the pedal adjustment first. I've seen this problem
personally, and adjusting the pushrod for proer slack fixed it.

               ajr

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 8:05:41 -0500
Subject: Tim burns his bushings behind him...

Dude, with the kind of know-it-all attitude you show, you are lucky that 
anybody responds to you at all. Alienating at least one of the founding 
fathers of this list is to say the least, bad manners.
If you are such an off-road monster man, why pain us with your rubber 
bushing crap-ola? Install polyurethane bushings like any serious 
individual would.
 
Why don't YOU go drive off a cliff!

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'69 Buick LeSabre Ragtop
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:57:31 -0600
Subject: RE: Rear axle leaking

>> It missed you! Land Rovers are a lot like puppies. If they feel neglected
>> they will engage in bad behavior.

That was my first thought. Poor little thing!! Already missing Daddy!!

>If you go away in future you must arrange someone to take it for "walkies"
>   John and Muddy

I thought about that before  I left, BUT, the only person available for that
purpose was my wife, and that definetily, most certainly, and almost in
every posible scenario, is a big NO NO.
I'll have to find a LR kennel for next time.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:02:31 -0600
Subject: RE: Rear axle leaking

>Something else to check is the axle case breather. The little check ball

assembly
>on the top left side of the axle housing. 2 cents worth.
>Tom

I've been looking at that little thing with a suspicious mind  on the past
days, but how do you check it? Just suck from it to see if air(?) comes out?
Or there is a more scientific method?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

-

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:13:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Brake problem

Bas wrote:

> I have a problem with my brakes. After driving for maybe 15 minutes
> and using the brakes firmly about 20 times, all the wheeles slowly
> lock up. When I release a few drops off brake fluid from a wheel I can
> hear the brake-shoes from all the wheels coming back to the right positions.
> In other words, there is building up more and more fluid in the system and
> its not flowing back to the reservoir.
> Its clear there is something wrong with the master-clinder/brake
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 19 lines)]
> 88 '74
> 88 '75

Between the servo and the master cylinder is an adjustable push rod. Shorten
this slightly and see what happens. If this doesn't fix it you are looking at a
mastercylinder  rebuild and possibly some flex hoses.
  John and Muddy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <rgdushin@blackcat.cat.syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:01:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Generator

Re: generator not comin' out...

There's (at least) two types of generator mounting set ups for that
pesky lower bolt.  One is composed of two (or three?) pressed steel
brackets that bolt to the block and to the lower mount.  Methinks (?) 
these were not introduced until "mid-early" SIIa's ('63-'65) or so. On
the "pivoting axis" of this type there are actually two bolts (one
through the brackets and outer genny lower mount, and one through
the block and inner genny lower mount hole).  BUT, it doesn't
sound to me like you've got this type, 'cause it'd be out by now
if you did...but if I'm wrong here alls you do is take the bracket
apart, remove the nut from the rear side (yes, may be one there,
look again) and remove genny by sliding back off the stud.

More likely, since you've a '61 and it's stuck in there, that you've
got the type that has a cast triangular piece that almost looks like
it's part of the block.  By removing the two bolts that hold it to
the block you get yourself nowhere...as you seem to have discovered.
Only way to get this bugger out is to push that looooonger lower
bolt (which goes all the way through the triangular piece, and the
block, and passing through both genny lower mounting holes on it's 
happy way) all the way out.  Yes, all the way.  No easy task with
that radiator in the way now is it?  Right.  It may have to be
removed....pull the entire breakfast while you're at it.  What the
hell - long weekend's comin' up and you didn't really want to sit
with the relatives now, did you?

...and you'll need a big hammer and a looonger still suitable drift...
not to mention a little heat on the side...

Um, be careful not to let the bolt hang up on the genny's rear mounting
flange...it's only cast aluminium and you'll bust it if you haven't
already.  Turn the bolt if you can, and spritz some schmeg on it.  Hi,
heat?

When you reassemble it all, make sure the NEW bolt fits nicely into the
block and through the cast piece.  If not, make like an adolescent
and take some emory cloth to the bolt until it fits right (had to
do this with one supplied by even the most reputable LR parts
supplier around).  Then be ***damned*** sure to coat it liberally
with anti-sieze before you reinstall it, and be certain the inside
of the hole in the block and triangular piece are also suitably lubed.
Otherwise, you'll be doing this all again in a few years...(that's the
only guarantee I'll offer you).

Best of luck,
rd/nige

ps BTW, chances are alls you need is a set of brushes and a quick
Schibe job on your commutator....

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Marc Rengers <mr@b4m.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:06:42 +0100
Subject: Re: Brake problem

>Of the three, I'd check the pedal adjustment first. I've seen this problem
>personally, and adjusting the pushrod for proer slack fixed it.

The pedal-thing happened to me too, so I'd check it first too...

Otherwise go for the rebuild of your mastercylinder.

Now something Dutch:

Als je meer nederlandse info nodig hebt, dan moet je even een gil 
geven... er zijn nog wel meer nederlanders met een LR.

Ok, back to normal now.

Succes

Marc Rengers
Westeremden, Holland
mr@b4m.com
0596-551334 (home)
050-3666761 (work)
06-51550521 (GSM)
06-59111461 (pager)
http://www.minerva.fk.hanze.nl/landrover/index.html

           --_                                --_         
      _____|__\___                    ________|__\___     
      | _  |   |_ |}                  |  _    |   |_ |}   
      "(_)"""""(_)"                   ""(_)"""""""(_)"
 1978 SIII 88" 2.25 diesel       1968  109"  SIIa 2.25 petrol
     reg. 47-DB-13                     reg. unknown    
      marine blue                 green (15 layers of paint)

also subscribed to LAND ROVER Owner International (great magazine)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter M. Kaskan" <pmk11@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:09:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HELP!  Valve Adj. Update

Hi All, thanks for the replies so far.
I think I'll re-adjust it this evening, but a few more things...

After driving for a bit last night, I realised the clack is inaudible only
at high engine revs, not just above 15 or 20 mphs.

At a really slow idle, the clack seems to become less prominent, and the
engine sounds a little "snappy/poppy" kind of like a diesel.  Low revs here
being below 500, just faster than the point at which the engine would
stall.  The clack appears above this point and stays.

The clack is coming from somewhere in the back of the engine.
I think its loudest at number 4.

I'm going to try to drive by a mechanic this afternoon and let them listen
to it.
As Enzo said, maybe I'm just hearing what I didn't before - though the
clack is definetly coming from the back.

Wish me luck!  - Peter

Peter M. Kaskan				Uris Hall 231
Office / 607-255-3382			Dept. Of Psychology
Lab /  607-255-6396			Cornell University
e-mail / pmk11@cornell.edu		Ithaca NY 14853
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/graduates/people/PeterM.Kaskan.htm
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/psychology/finlay/finlaylab.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Joost Kramer <jkramer@best.ms.philips.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:37:47 +0100
Subject: Re: Brake problem

> Now something Dutch:
> Als je meer nederlandse info nodig hebt, dan moet je even een gil
> geven... er zijn nog wel meer nederlanders met een LR.

Zeker weten!

JK

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: jimfoo@uswest.net
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:06:14 -0800
Subject: Bushings

While we are still on the bushing topic, who sells poly bushings since
mine are in dire need of replacement.

Jim Hall
Elephant Chaser

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:14:40 -0500
Subject: Brake Fluid specs

"Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr> wrote:

>You see, thats why I said I didn't know if it applied to LRs. Well, it
>seems to be it doesn't.

>Sorry!!!

Hey, no worries...the "DOT" label merely means that whatever fluid meets
certain gov't specifications - particularly boiling point - not it's actual
chemical composition.  In years past, when Rover seals were actually made
of natural rubber, *only* the glycol-based fluids (Girling "Crimson"",
Castrol "GT-LMA" and others) could be used.  Petroleum-based fluids would
attack the seals with predictably dire results.  In the mid-80's sometime,
Rover finally started using neoprene seals.  Barring any "old stock" still
in someone's kit or otherwise getting back into service, the chemical
content of brake fluids shouldn't be a problem any more.  BTW, the last
time I went to the autoparts store, did I see LMA now labeled as "DOT 4" ??
 Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:14:42 -0500
Subject: SOV's

Bill Lawrence DNDANGER@aol.com wrote:

>The US Army 75th Division (Rangers) uses 110 inch Landrovers in the form of
>RSOVs (Ranger Special Operations Vehicles) They chose them over HMMWVs
>because they are smaller and more easily air portable and will carry a
>better load. As far as I know this is the only use of Landrovers by a US
>Army unit. 	

Actually, I think it is only a brigade or two within the division...not
many vehicles actually.   Tracked them down a while back (they were
stationed at Ft. Benning at that time) to invite a contingent to the
MAR...got a testy letter back to the effect, "how'd you find us...we don't
exist...."  I think that RN had a contract to supply parts/engines.  When
asked about it, they said "we can neither confirm nor deny...." so the
existence of this unit was quasi-secret.  Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 09:07:01 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: Dreaded spring bushings 

> they would drive off a cliff if LR told them it was the best way to let 
>"air" out of the tires. 
problem is my LR lets the air out of its tires on its own. no need for the 
cliff
> Yes Dave B - you are probably more of an expert on elastomers than I am 
>- at least when contemplating the elasticity of your own drool.  Come on  
>- you will have to improve your rhetoric if you want to flame with the 
>big boys.
yes I love to contemplate the elasticity of my drool as it strecthes from 
my tongue to your wife/girlfriend's left t*t. You go *flame* with your big 
boys, *flame boy*. I'll stay here and play with the girls...hello 
ladies...(*not* the ones on this list, please)...aggh
> Most of your reply contains my text - mainly because you have little to 
>say on your own except absurd overbearing statements.  I would like to 
>include some of your text here but could not find much of substance.
my reply included your text because *it was a reply*...dipstick...lots to say 
on my own. published in many of the club newsletters. OVLR, ROAV, Solihull 
Society, one in OZ too I forget the name. Lots of people write me to tell me 
how much they like what i have to say. Do they write you? Are your articles 
ever printed in the newsletters? I doubt it. You say I use your text because I 
have no substance but then you go and tell me that you *tried* to repsond using 
*my style* (extracting text). You couldn't refute my arguments could you? The 
reason you didn't find much content in my message is that you are too effin' 
brain dead to figure out that you are wrong. I will now use examples from your 
text to prove my point. If you read back a few days I already explained the 
theory in detail, no need to repeat that. All I need to do now is shoot down 
the errant bits of misinformation that got through the first barrage. 
>As said in my first post - if the shackle bolts are tightened so that the 
>inner sleeves bind to the shackle plates ride quality and articulation 
>will suffer. 
1st shot...
it just doesn't I have had my axles all the way to the bumpstops plenty of 
times. no *suffering*, believe me. As for ride quality, I would say my 
rover has quite a comfortable ride. Never had any complaints, even from 
the young lasses that ride in it.
One down...
> The more the spring varies from resting state the harder that bushing is 
>going to try and prevent the spring from traveling.  The more time spent 
>with crossed up axles the more the bushings will wear prematurely.
ok, here you are correct...but...how much TIME do you spend crossed up? 
add it up pal. Up, and over...it aint like you are parking it there.
all of your figures don't really add up the way you sya they do. 45 
degrees of movement split two ways is 22.5 degress in either direction, 
for a bushing that is 1" diameter, that equals *1/16* of a turn, or about 
1/5 of an inch.
As for diagonal movement that is greater than the 1/8" of rubber allows, 
(although I believe it is thicker than that, more like 3/16" to 1/4"), 
that kind of movement isn't really necessary to such a degree. the axle 
will reach the bumpstops just fine in the stock configuration. 
two down
> Think about it - the whole reason the shackle is there is to allow fore 
>and aft movement of the leaf spring.  Anything that inhibits fore and aft 
>movement is working against the main purpose of the shackle. 
Tim, are you incapable of listening? Binding the shackle *does not* 
inhibit anything. I have epictures where my tires are buried in the wheel 
wells and even with bumpstops the still rub on the underside of the wheel 
well. That for example is maximum articulation. 
1st one again...must I keep repeating myself?
>The other concern brought up that I do agree with is a fear of excessive 
>metal to metal wear by not binding the inner sleeves....The bolts will 
>move with the shackle plates so there will be no wear of the shackle 
>holes due to rotation.
in theory...but the end of the bushing sleeve will wear a round groove in 
the shackle plate. Then your carefully set clearance will be much larger. 
And *then* road vibration (think about 30-40 mph over miles of washboard) 
will make the hole oval for you. 
 3 down 
>>  A good trick to avoid this is to install a fender washer between each 
>>plate and bushing. 
yes, I see lots of trucks with that. You are a miracle worker. How come no 
one ever thought of that before! You really are a genuis.
>> I recommend this even if you decide to bind the inner sleeves because 
>>it will still protect the plates from rubbing on the spring eyes - my 
>>Series shackles have a ridge ground into them from this friction.
ooh, now you are on to something. your series shackles have a *ridge ground 
into them because they weren't properly tightened. I.e. YOU HAVE WEAR. do it 
right dude and you won't need those washers.
3 again...
>And no, grease fittings are not a prerequisite of this setup as several 
>other vehicles use this design and yet do not have grease fittings.  I 
>have experienced minimal wear on the bolt/inner sleeve surface - just 
>some scoring.
oh, no wear, right...*just some scoring*....you don't see the forest for 
the trees...
3 again
>  If you are still worried then at your 6 month or one year service 
>intervals apply new grease - it is easier than buying and replacing the 
>bushings and you get all the advantages of free swinging shackles.
what were those advantages? I have a great ride and full articulation. So tell 
me please what more is there?
1 again
>if you go for the kind of rock crawling done here in Colorado then you 
>are doing anything you can to keep the rubber on the trail and axle 
>articulation issues are quite important.
then you should have bought something that *has some*...
in conclusion, I'd say our boy wants sometihng else. Something with lots of 
chrome...
Apologies to anyone who may have been offended by insults directed at Tim.
later
daveb/greenHELL

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:21:49
Subject: Re: Brake problem

Seriously, if your flex lines are old, its probably them.  The interior
lining of the house deteriorates allowing fluid to spread out into the
surrounding matrix where, when the brakes are applied, the pressure clamps
down on the inner tube sealing it off.  After an idle period, the pressure
seeps out opening the line again and the brakes release.  I have not had
any leaks from the offending hoses or other outward sign that this is
happening but I'm sure fluid could migrate right out of the hose.  Have had
this happen on several cars most recently the rear brakes on the rover.
Its good preventive maintenance to change doubtful flex lines on a single
line brake system on a series any how.
Aloha Peter  

>I have a problem with my brakes. After driving for maybe 15 minutes
>and using the brakes firmly about 20 times, all the wheeles slowly
>lock up. 
>Bas Timmers

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Paul Lonsdale <Lonsdale@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:53:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Crimp vs Solder

<<  connectors are crimped because it takes less time
and less skilled workers. >>

 Not entirely. Solder tends to wick up in between the strands of the 
conductor. This makes it stiff. In areas of high vibration (Land 
Rover?) the stiffness can cause breakage of some, or all, of the wire 
strands.
 
 That is why you will find crimps on aircraft, not because airline 
staff and Boeing / Airbus staff are "less skilled workers", but because 
crimping is a superior method of making connections. (And because the 
FAA, the CAA & JAA all say so....).
 
 Someone with the right training, and more importantly the right tools, 
can consistently turn out superior connections.
 
 For an amateur, with poor tools, soldering may have a place.
 
 However, for both techniques, cleanliness is all important!
 
 (Rant over ;)  )
 
 Paul

 Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:47

 Ex- H.M. Coastguard Series III 88 Inch
 "Dougal Mc Landie"  B 895 OJT  (1984)
 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:15:58 -0800
Subject: Re: HELP!  Valve Adjusting!

From: "Peter M. Kaskan" <pmk11@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 02:08:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: HELP!  Valve Adjusting!

>Well, I adjusted the valves for the first time.
Before I did it, the engine sounded normal to me.  Now it is soo much
quieter and smoother!!  But I'm still concearned; it is now more
"clackety."  Very prominent at idle, not audible above 15or20 mphs.  I feel
I got them pretty close to .010, but even if they are slightly off, they
are much better than before!
	Can you tell me if all 2.25s sound "clackety." 

Back in 1973, not long after I'd bought my Series III  I asked an
experienced mechanic who'd worked on Land Rovers in the UK about the mild
valve clatter my new engine had at idle.  He told me that if you don't hear
any valve noise at all in the 2.25 engine, there's something seriously
wrong.  I have adjusted my valves yearly for the past 25 years, always
following the manual's instructions to the letter.  There has always been a
bit of a valve "tap" when I'm done.  If you got the clearances right at .010
(hot or cold, so it obviously isn't super-critical, although I've always
done it hot) you did the right thing.  The only way you could possibly mess
up is if the cam was not at its lowest point for that follower and pushrod
when you did the adjustment.  But using the hand crank, either directly or
through a Fairey capstan winch as on my vehicle, it's very easy to determine
the exact point when the follower is on the lowest part of the cam lobe.

The fact that the valve train is completely mechanical with a small but
specific "gap" in it (the .010 clearance) means that some mechanical noise
is inevitable.  The gap is there to ensure that the valves always close
completely despite the heat expansion of the head, follower components,
pushrod, rocker, valve stem, etc.  So depending on how the metal in all
these components reacts to heat, some of the clearances will be less than
others, hence the tapping from some of the valve trains that you are
hearing.  Don't worry about it.  Reducing or eliminating the clearances to
eliminate the noise will do FAR more damage, and relatively quickly, than
the tapping,  which does result in wear, obviously, but over a very long
time.  When I pulled the head off my engine at 125K miles or so to deal with
a pair of burned exhaust valves, the camshaft, followers, pushrods, rockers,
and springs were in perfect condition.  The only wear was to the lower
halves of the rocker bushings and the underside of the rocker arm where the
constant upward pressure on the rockers had worn the bearing surfaces.  But
even after 125K miles, this wear was still well within the adjustment range
of the valve adjuster screws.  I installed a new rocker arm and put new
bushings in the rockers, and everything was back to as-built specifications.

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:27:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Bushings

Order them from your usual mail-order parts supplier. They all carry 
them. Two brands...Old Man Emu and Polybush. Pricewise, about a hundred 
bucks...I think.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'69 Buick LeSabre Ragtop
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "BROWN DAVID E (DAVE)" <debrown@srp.gov>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:27:58 -0700
Subject: I think I need a distributor???

Hello my friends... I hope one of you geniuses can help me with a problem
with my US spec. '71 IIa 4 cylinder. 

The problem is that at idle (tickover) it has a fairly steady miss in the #3
cylinder. Pulling the plug wire on #3 makes very little difference (a slight
bit more vibration but not much) where the other 3 cylinders make a large
difference when I pull each one's wire off.

I have replaced the cylinder head (old was cracked), spark plugs, ignition
wires, cap, rotor, points, condenser, and have tried swapping plugs and
wires around. It's always the #3 cylinder that's doing it. Compression is
fairly good for around 1200 foot elevation at around 125 PSI on all
cylinders. I have also checked, and double-checked the valve adjustment.
(Even re-torqued the head bolts after several weeks using the new composite
head gasket.)

The distributor shaft where the rotor (dizzy) goes on has around 1/16" of
play. Seems kind-of sloppy to me, but why would this only affect the #3
cylinder????

PLEASE help me figure this thing out!!!  Anyone know any good leads on a
rebuilt distributor?
Please respond directly to me if possible at: debrown@srp.gov
<mailto:debrown@srp.gov> 

Thank you
Dave Brown,  <http://www.srp.gov/> AM/FM
Phone:  602-236-3544  Fax:  602-236-2303
Hours: 7:00 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. Mon-Thurs  AWW: Off Fridays
E-mail:   <mailto:debrown@srp.gov> debrown@srp.gov

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:02:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings

From: INDIO2 <Indio2@cris.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 04:58:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings

>As said in my first post - if the shackle bolts are tightened so that the
inner sleeves bind to the shackle plates ride quality and articulation
will suffer.  The more the spring varies from resting state the harder
that bushing is going to try and prevent the spring from traveling.  The
more time spent with crossed up axles the more the bushings will wear
prematurely.....
>To summarize I am in no way advocating leaving the shackle bolts loose -
only not tightening them to the extreme so as to bind shackle movement.
If you are into show restoration or drive mostly on the road then this
topic is about as interesting as the dreaded "Ask me about East Coast
Rovers" thread.  But if you go for the kind of rock crawling done here
in Colorado then you are doing anything you can to keep the rubber on the
trail and axle articulation issues are quite important.

I can see how for extreme off-road use, not tightening the spring and
shackle bolts to specifications could improve the rate of axle articulation
(it won't affect the amount of articulation, but it could slightly improve
the rate, which I suppose could be important to maintain traction under
extreme circumstances) and could give you a slightly milder ride.  And I can
see how it could prolong the life of the rubber.  But the trade-off for this
will be accelerated  wear- not the rubber but the metal.

I have a friend in Manchester (UK) who owns a commercial-vehicle hire
company specializing in Land Rovers, vans, and large lorries.  Of course all
his Land Rovers today are of the coil-spring variety, but he started out
with a fleet of Series Land Rovers, mostly 109 pickups, but a few 88s as
well.  Most of his vehicles are hired on a short-term basis by construction
firms, and like all rental vehicles, are treated very roughly.  At one point
back in the early 1980s he had a mechanic who advocated a shackle
bolt-bushing setup pretty much as you have proposed, thinking it would give
a better ride as well as prolong the life of the bushings.  (You will find
when you've been involved with Series Land Rovers long enough that there is
nothing being proposed today that hasn't been thought of and tried by
somebody in the past, unless it involves the use of a new technology that
wasn't around back then.)

Anyway, this mechanic set up a number of the company's Land Rovers this way.
The results are in a big box that's still in the back of my friend's shop:
dozens of prematurely worn out bushings, shackles, and shackle bolts.  Some
of the shackles I looked at are actually fatigue-cracked around the bolt
holes.  While these vehicles were certainly not used for rock-crawling, they
were used on the kinds of rough ground associated with motorway and
industrial construction projects,.  They were often carrying very heavy
loads, and sometimes pulled trailers with air compressors, generators, etc.
on them.

When my friend made the mechanics go back to replacing springs (they went
through a lot of them) using the factory-recommended procedure, the number
of failed bushings, and worn bolts and shackles dropped off considerably.
Given that the kind of use my friend's vehicles are put to is more in tune
with the way I use my own Series III, I will continue to follow Land Rover's
spring installation procedures when the occasion arises in the future.  If I
were crawling around on the rocks of Moab or Colorado, I might be inclined
to try your methods if I really felt I was losing traction using Land
Rover's setup.

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:15:12 EST
Subject: Re: I think I need a distributor???

In a message dated 11/24/98 9:36:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, debrown@srp.gov
writes:

<< Seems kind-of sloppy to me, but why would this only affect the #3
 cylinder???? >>
Well, the dizzy is kind of loose, but it wouldn't affect the #3 cylinder
alone.  Try rotating the engine with the valve cover off and see if the
excursion of each valve is appropriate, sounds like #3 has some idiosyncratic
response. Something is different about #3 and you need to find it. if you'd
hold the engine a little closer to the keyboard, perhaps some of us could be a
little more help.

Zack Arbios
Series 2-A
two Range Rovers

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:16:05 -1000
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings(no flame)

>The unsprung weight of a Land Rover is more than enough to overcome
>the resistance of the rubber in the bushing.  For sure the sprung weight
will
>overcome the resistance.

I have always wondered, what is the meaning of sprung and unsprung?

Is sprung the weight "on" the axle and unsprung the weight "of" the axle it
self?

Mahalo
Pete

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:21:57 -0500
Subject: Re: I think I need a distributor???

I think you do too.....8*)

Seriously, AutoZone has them rebuilt for about $60-70. Ask for one for an MG
Midget, late 60s vintage.

OR!

Go out and get yourself a Pertronix Ignitor or the like - the reason you're
getting the fluctuations you are is due to shaft wobble causing the points to
miss. The Ignitor will help with a lot of it.

Seriously, though, with the advance weights and the like off the top of the
shaft, any sideways wobble is too much and you need new bushings..

               ajr

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:25:52 -1000
Subject: Re: Rear axle leaking

>>Something else to check is the axle case breather. The little check ball
>assembly
>>on the top left side of the axle housing. 2 cents worth.
>>Tom
>I've been looking at that little thing with a suspicious mind  on the past
>days, but how do you check it? Just suck from it to see if air(?) comes

out?
>Or there is a more scientific method?

If you remove it from the axle and the leak stops then you know it is the
problem.

Seriously though.  Remove it and shake.  If it is a check ball type of
breather you should here the ball moving.  Same way you chaeck a PCV valve
on an emissions equiped car.  If it doesn't rattle I do not know if a good
soak in carb cleaner will work or not.  If it is not a checkvalve type but
more like a bolt with a hole running down the center, look through it.  No
light, clean it out with a bit of stout wire.

Pete

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:34:02 -0800
Subject: Sprung & Unsprung

Sprung weight is anything that the springs are supporting (most of the
truck).  Un-sparing weight is everything below the springs (axles, wheels
etc.)  

Now for the Zen question:  What does that make the springs themselves?  The
shackles (no not them!) would be sprung whereas the u-bolt plate thingy
would be un-sprung.  Mmmmm, a gradual progression from sprung to un-sprung.

We Reach!
Peace & Love.

Paul in Victoria

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:32:54 EST
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings(no flame)

In a message dated 11/24/98 11:28:50 AM Pacific Standard Time,
phope@hawaii.rr.com writes:

<< s sprung the weight "on" the axle and unsprung the weight "of" the axle >>
Yup, with meaningless fine tuning to the definition.  the ratio of the two
weights has an effect on the ride, as do the shocks, wheel inflation
suspension stiffness etc.  As does the loose nut at the wheel.

Zack Arbios

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:43:02 EST
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings(no flame)

In a message dated 98-11-24 14:28:50 EST, you write:

<< >overcome the resistance.
 I have always wondered, what is the meaning of sprung and unsprung?
 
 Is sprung the weight "on" the axle and unsprung the weight "of" the axle it
 self? >>  Yup
 
Sprung Weight: anything which rides on the springs (Body, frame, engine,
cupholders)

Unsprung weight: Anything which does not ride on the springs (axles, wheels,
springs)

Basically, when you jack up the car, the unsprung weight droops.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:47:13 -1000
Subject: Re: SOV's

>>The US Army 75th Division (Rangers) uses 110 inch Landrovers in the form
of
>>RSOVs (Ranger Special Operations Vehicles)
>Actually, I think it is only a brigade or two within the division...not
>many vehicles actually.
>asked about it, they said "we can neither confirm nor deny...." so the
>existence of this unit was quasi-secret.  Cheers

Just incase anyone care.  It is the 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger).
Composed of four battalions, 1 training and 3 Operational, they trace their
liniage to the 75th Infantry that had the task of climbing Pointe De Hoc on
June 6th, 1944, Merills Marauders in the PTO and New Hampshire's Rogers
Rangers of the French and Indian War period (modern day Ranger handbook
still contains Major Rogers original standing orders).  One Battalion each
is at Fort Lewis, Washington, Hunter Army Airfield, Savanna, Georgia, and
Fort Benning, Georgia.  The training unit runs all the different phases of
Ranger school across the country and has its headquarters at Ft. Benning,
home of the Infantry, Follow Me, huuuahhh and all that (sorry, can't help my
self sometimes).  For a time, each phase of the school was considered a
different battalion, even though it only had 20-40 cadre.
I think people were just pulling Sandy's leg as I have read an article about
the Defenders, complete with pictures.  Sorry but I do not remember where I
saw it and yes it is possible it was in the Army Times, but this is not a
secure document, very publicly available.  I do remember thinking as I read
it and saw the pictures of all the weapons, now that's a Range(r) Rover.
Also James Taylor has mentioned them in some of his books.

Aloha
Pete

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:50:44 -0600
Subject: RE: Rear axle leaking

>If you remove it from the axle and the leak stops then you know it is the
>problem.
>Seriously though.  Remove it and shake.  If it is a check ball type of
>breather you should here the ball moving.  Same way you chaeck a PCV valve
>on an emissions equiped car.  If it doesn't rattle I do not know if a good
>soak in carb cleaner will work or not.  If it is not a checkvalve type but
>more like a bolt with a hole running down the center, look through it.  No
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 11 lines)]
>light, clean it out with a bit of stout wire.
>Pete

I will be getting it out maybe tonight. But anyway, it is too much oil
comming out, so I think something else must be ready for the trashcan.

This brings comfort to me in some way: If I have not lost my patience with
this truck by now, this must mean that I will never loose it with it. (knock
on wood, just to be safe!!)

I will check on the gasket seals on it, but for now, I will just add the
already lost amount of 90wt and hope for some time.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:59:50 -1000
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings(no flame)

>Basically, when you jack up the car, the unsprung weight droops.

Sorry, but do you mean jack and fix a flat or lift it to fit larger tires?
Pete

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
boundary="------------DB03B48D18AA0080C527892A" ]
From: Thomas Spoto <tspoto@az.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:31:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Rear axle leaking

> Seriously though.  Remove it and shake.  If it is a check ball type of
> breather you should here the ball moving.  Same way you chaeck a PCV valve
> on an emissions equiped car.  If it doesn't rattle I do not know if a good
> soak in carb cleaner will work or not.  If it is not a checkvalve type but
> more like a bolt with a hole running down the center, look through it.  No
> light, clean it out with a bit of stout wire.
> Pete

If it is the ball type, then a soak in solvent will generally clear up the
problem. Use  stiff brush to remove all the grime from around the breather
before removing it from the housing. Remove as much of the grim as you can from
the outside before soaking in solvent, brake clean or carb cleaner, whatever
you choose to use. It shouldn't take much to free up the ball.

Tom

	[ Original post was HTML ]
[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii ]

	[Attachment  removed, was 35 lines.]	

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: multipart/alternative; ]
From: "Frank Elson" <frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:24:06 -0000
Subject: Re: not nice
	charset="iso-8859-1"

yeah,
 but not as good as Thwaites'

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+           
     I !__|  [_]|_\___  
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

	[ Original post was HTML ]
[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: text/html; ]

	[Attachment  removed, was 60 lines.]	

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Frank Elson" <frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:28:37 -0000
Subject: Re: not nice

no no,
he was from Blackburn, hence Lancastrian, not French.

ps bloody spellcheck got its knickers in a twist over the word
Lancastrian.........I need a warm beer.

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: multipart/alternative; ]
From: "Frank Elson" <frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:03:52 -0000
Subject: Mice
	charset="iso-8859-1"

please excuse a slight deviation from content, but can any of you =
computer experts out there help a simple (minded some would say) user?

After about three years of cleaning I reckon my present mouse is near =
enough toast. Now, I used to have a trackball on a laptop and quite =
liked it (new one's just a pad, weird) so I see in the magazines that I =
can buy a mouse with a trackball on it (well a couple of mice actually, =
but I only want one so...) anyone out there use/d one and can compare it =
with a normal mouse?
My old one was el cheapo and not bad for three years I reckon, but I am =
prepared to pay some =A3=A3=A3s if it makes the use of my PC as good as =
that old laptop...
TIA

BTW if I haven't made myself very clear that's 'cos I'm just =
thawing/drying out after 1) putting a new front propshaft on PKV (LR =
content) and 2) chasing the sheep off the front lawn..... Mutton for tea =
one of these days

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+           
     I !__|  [_]|_\___  
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE17E5.8EFC4680
	[ Original post was HTML ]
[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: text/html; ]

	[Attachment  removed, was 60 lines.]	

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Riaan Botes" <riaanb@iafrica.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:46:54 +0200
Subject: RE: Dreaded spring bushings with confusion

With no intention of extending this thread more than is necessary I am still
rather confused. I have just removed the axles off my SER1 and sooner or
later they have to go back and seeing as spares are a problem it is
important to me that I get this right.
I have now totally lost track of all the pro/con arguments but here is the
way I understand it with my 6 minutes worth of mechanical experience ...

1. The function of the leave springs are to allow axles articulation in a
controlled manner.
2. By design these leave springs are concave up and when the axle travels,
the leaves slide over each other.
3. The front end (engine side) of the leaves are attached at a fixed point
on the chassis.
4. The rear end is attached to shackles which are attached to the chassis.
5. The maximum play/rotation/movement that has to be accommodated is the
effective change of length as the top leave goes from a concave shape
(879mm) to flat (921mm) a difference of 42mm. (SER1 front leave spring) -
and the change of angle about the bushes.

So ...

6. If the shackles are tight is it the task of the 3 bushes to take up this
length and angle change? i.e.. viewed from the RHD side of the vehicle the
front bush rotates clockwise the rear bush on the leave rotates
anti-clockwise and the bush in the chassis rotates clockwise, as the axles
rises?
7. If the shackles are tightened against the sleeves what allows movement to
take place -- or is the rubber of the bush located on the outside of the
sleeve??? I haven't looked that closely yet :-)
8. What is the real functional value of the shackles ? to me their function
seems to be ensuring that the leave springs are horizontal in accommodating
for the shape of the chassis.
9. If the shackles were not tightened will this not cause the rear end of
the leave spring to knock up against the chassis as one goes over bumps
etc.?
10. Lastly .. with my never-ending amazement of these vehicles - surely
Solihull would have put in some sort of stop/plate to prevent tightening
past a certain point if this was so critical???

Does this make sense ??

Riaan Botes
'96 Tdi 110 PU
'76 SIII 109 , 2.25l Petrol PU
'52 S1 80"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:48:40 -0600
Subject: 90wt alternatives

Yesterday when going through some old car-like stuff on the 'patio', I
found, besides a brand new Subaru Hitachi carburator, which is completely
useless for me right now, 2 quarts of 80-140 wt Gear Oil.
I'm sure I dont need any exterior-temperature-related-ability on the oil,
since the variations on normal driving conditions will always be within 18
to 27 C degrees, tops. (Well, to be honest, 31C.) So, I dont see why I
should not use this oil as refilling fluid for my axle.
Multigrade oils give an advantage when the temperatures drop too low and
operation temperature must be reached from low.
I am right on this one. Right?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: jimfoo@uswest.net
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:06:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings with confusion

The purpose of the shackles is to allow the springs to bend. If they
were attached to fixed points on both ends, not much movement would
result. The shackles will function weather loose or tight. The majority
of the list, and the book say to tighten them, while a few people say
loose is better. The decision is up to you.

Jim Hall
Elephant Chaser 1966 88" truck cab
Riaan Botes wrote:
> With no intention of extending this thread more than is necessary I am still
> rather confused.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:14:57 -1000
Subject: Re: Mice

>can buy a mouse with a trackball on it (well a couple of mice actually, =
>but I only want one so...) anyone out there use/d one and can compare it =
>with a normal mouse?
>My old one was el cheapo and not bad for three years I reckon, but I am =
>prepared to pay some =A3=A3=A3s if it makes the use of my PC as good as =

Frank,
the Logitech Trackball Marble is prety reliable.  Have had mine for almost 2
years.  Works on a beam of light reflecting off the ball instead of
mechanical rollers.  No moving parts = no wear I guess, and it is smooth and
quite.  I have used trackballs, touchpads, and mice for a long time (nothing
too good for the 'puter syndrome?) and I have no complaints about the
Marble.  I did notice that my right thumb was sore for the first few days
after some intense gaming, but have not had a problem since.
Aloha
Pete

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: TeriAnn Wakeman <twakeman@cruzers.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 13:17:14 -0800
Subject: Re: I think I need a distributor???

>Hello my friends... I hope one of you geniuses can help me with a problem
>with my US spec. '71 IIa 4 cylinder. 

Gosh Dave you have a puzeller there.

Let me see if I understand what you have done:

- Compression is good
- spark plug change did not affect the problem
- spark plug wire change did not affect problem
- distributer cap change did not affect problem

How strong is your spark?  Is the centre wire and coil up to snuff?  If 
they are not, you could be experienceing problems in all cylinders, just 
number #3 more than the others.

Your distributer does seem to have some wear in it's bushings.  New Lucas 
distributers are cheaper than having an old one rebuilt to new specs.

Have you considered that your problem may not be electrical?  Have you 
checked to see that the valves are opening properly and about as far as 
the others?  Try pulling the valve cover and watching while it is hand 
cranked.

Have you considered an intake manafold leak affecting #3?  Is the vacume 
intake for the power brake booster just above the #3 passage inlet?  
maybe you have a ruptured vacume diaphram?

Its hard to tell without playing with the engine.  If it is electrial I 
would suspect low voltage going to the distributer center connector.  But 
from what you have said I suspect your problem is not electrical.

Good luck tracing it down.

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
twakeman@cruzers.com           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   

Walk in harmony with the earth and all her creatures and you will create 
beauty wherever you go.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:55:15 -0500
Subject: Strange front hubs

Rob, years ago there was a compnay made some " automatic " free wheel hubs,
Mayflower  I think ( MAP ) . These may be what you have. They do not work in
reverse  and are not much good, but for the regular 2 w driver they served a
purpose.
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:57:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Mice

Frank Elson wrote:

> please excuse a slight deviation from content, but can any of you =
> computer experts out there help a simple (minded some would say) user?
> After about three years of cleaning I reckon my present mouse is near =
> enough toast. Now, I used to have a trackball on a laptop and quite =
> liked it (new one's just a pad, weird) so I see in the magazines that I =
> can buy a mouse with a trackball on it (well a couple of mice actually, =
> but I only want one so...) anyone out there use/d one and can compare it =
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 16 lines)]
> BTW if I haven't made myself very clear that's 'cos I'm just =
> thawing/drying out after 1) putting a new front propshaft on PKV (LR =

Now lets get this straight,  you need a new sheep for your lap and  the top of
your lawn has mice..... so what's  the problem with a wet drive shaft?  : )
 cheers           John and Muddy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:47:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings(no flame)

Yes
  John and Muddy

Peter Hope wrote:

> >The unsprung weight of a Land Rover is more than enough to overcome
> >the resistance of the rubber in the bushing.  For sure the sprung weight
> will
> >overcome the resistance.
> I have always wondered, what is the meaning of sprung and unsprung?
> Is sprung the weight "on" the axle and unsprung the weight "of" the axle it
> self?
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 12 lines)]
> Mahalo
> Pete

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:46:27 -0400
Subject: Re: I think I need a distributor???

Check carefully for vacuum leaks, you may well have a bad manifold gasket or
even a porous manifold.
      John and Muddy

"BROWN DAVID E (DAVE)" wrote:

> Hello my friends... I hope one of you geniuses can help me with a problem
> with my US spec. '71 IIa 4 cylinder.
> The problem is that at idle (tickover) it has a fairly steady miss in the #3
> cylinder. Pulling the plug wire on #3 makes very little difference (a slight
> bit more vibration but not much) where the other 3 cylinders make a large
> difference when I pull each one's wire off.
> I have replaced the cylinder head (old was cracked), spark plugs, ignition
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 26 lines)]
> Thank you
> Dave Brown,

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:03:13 -0500
Subject: Noisy overdrive

Terianne wrote :In summary, I advise:
1. remove the overdrive and put a non-OD gear & back plate on.  Drive the 
car to verify that the noise indeed came from the OD.
2. If the OD is the noise source get it rebuilt to new specification.

 I agree with much of what you have written regarding the bearings, however
a word of caution. I have found on one or two occasions that the overdrive
noise is caused by the overdrive output gear on the transfer box
intermediate gear, typically on overdrives which have been fitted to more
than one gearbox. I have also found similar problems with the standard
gearbox output gears which may have been used in in more than one box. 
 Having owned a few Land rovers and only two overdrives, I have moved them
from vehicle to vehicle and found that on some boxes they ran quieter than
on others.
 I posted an article some time ago with the bearing part numbers etc which
are much cheaper from a bearing factors than they are from Rover.
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Rick Grant <rgrant@cadvision.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:14:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings with confusion

At 02:06 PM 24/11/98 -0800, jimfoo@uswest.net, wrote

>result. The shackles will function weather loose or tight. The majority
>of the list, and the book say to tighten them, while a few people say
>loose is better. The decision is up to you.

I was part way into a spring replacement when all this stuff started and
I've been a bit paralysed through pressure of business and confusion ever
since.   In the hope of not offending anybody I "think" I have decided to
join the _tight_ crowd as per the book.  But -- to what tightness?  The
Green book doesn't say and I can't remember seeing a recommended torque
setting here although it would have been easy to miss in all the welter of
back and forth.

So, how tight?

                                                         Rick Grant

Rick Grant Associates,  Calgary Canada
Media Communications, Crisis Management, Media Training
www.cadvision.com/rgrant
rgrant@cadvision.com

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "d.h.lowe" <dhlowe@idirect.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:46:26 -0500
Subject: Re: I think I need a distributor???

Put your timing light inductive pick-up on the number one lead and check where
the timing is set on the pointer, Now put the clamp on to the number 4 lead (180
degrees away) and check the timing mark again. If it is significantly different
you have a worn distributor.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "d.h.lowe" <dhlowe@idirect.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:58:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange front hubs

Mayflower was the forerunner of  the Fairey Company of Tavistock Devon not far
from Plymouth.hence the name.Mayflower Automotive Products. Land of the Oggie.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "d.h.lowe" <dhlowe@idirect.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:00:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Mice

You know Jasper Carrot once did a very funny skit on getting creatures off your
lawn.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:00:50
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings with confusion

Think someone came up with an actual figure from a Series III manual.  If
memory serves me right, it was 35 lbs for the bolt/shackle and 50 lbs for
the nut/shackle.  It any event, a 1/2" ratchet with as much leverage as I
can apply has worked fine for me.  A breaker bar or leverage extenders
might be another story.
Aloha Peter

At 03:14 PM 11/24/98 -0700, you wrote:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: jimfoo@uswest.net
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:44:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings with confusion

Rick Grant wrote:
=   In the hope of not offending anybody I "think" I have decided to
= join the _tight_ crowd as per the book.  But -- to what tightness?  
= So, how tight?

I think someone mentioned 50-70 ft lbs.
Jim Hall

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:36:11 EST
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings

In a message dated 11/24/98 10:03:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com writes:

<< When my friend made the mechanics go back to replacing springs (they went
 through a lot of them) using the factory-recommended procedure, the number
 of failed bushings, and worn bolts and shackles dropped off considerably >>
You go!  Marin, I love it when you post.  Well thought out and with examples
as well.

Zack Arbios

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Jeff and Chris Jackson" <jcjcj88@email.msn.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:00:54 -0800
Subject: heaters

Paul Donohue wrote:  Two other items to consider are fan and ducting.  No
matter how much hot coolant goes through your Smiths shinburner, if the fan
does not move a lot of air through it, you are not going to be roasted out
of your Rover.  The
Series 2a defroster system with it's mastodon intestines and multiple right
angle ducts is a monument to inefficient design.  In cold weather mine will
barely keep frost off the inside of the windscreen.

Also, insulation (or lack thereof) plays a role.  To preserve my hearing
during The Year of Living Dangerously (I'm commuting 80+ miles/day to school
this year), I soundproofed and carpeted, including the seatbox, floorboards
and rear tub.  My stock SIII heater does much better than last year.  During
tonights ride home (about 38F) I actually turned the heater down to the
never-before-used low speed setting.

An uninsulated Series truck is a hell of a heat exchanger in its own right.
It's a bit much to expect the heater to keep you toasty warm while the
unprotected flooboards, seatbox et al shed heat so quickly that the car
would be nothing but a bright orange bloom if viewed through an IR camera.
Few heaters that I've seen could keep up.  Rip all the carpeting and
insulation out of a Volvo and you'll freeze your Scandinavian arse off.

Jeff

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: David Cockey <dcockey@tir.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:16:48 -0500
Subject: Freelander drive

I drove a diesel 4 door Freelander this weekend. We did some errand
running, and several trips around the countryside for a total of a 150
miles or so. No off-roading though, and no low traction situations to
test the all-wheel-drive system. It appears larger in person than in
pictures, though still smaller than a Discovery. A few people seemed to
notice it, though less than I expected.

It definately feels more like a truck than either a CR-V or RAV 4.
Turning circle was very good compared to conventional suv's, though not
as good as the smaller RAV 4. The performance is adequate, though we
weren't heavily loaded and there are no long steep hills within several
hundred miles. The diesel engine has a good torque range, though there
isn't much acceleration in fifth gear on even slight grades. General
noise level is good, and the diesel is civilized, though there is
distinct engine noise at highway speeds. Road noise was low, though the
low profile 17 inch tires probably accounted for some of the impact
harshness. Wind noise is moderate. Not many squeaks and rattles, and
general fit and finish are good.

It will be interesting to see how LR positions the US version, and how
it does compared to Discovery. Presumably the US version will have a V6
and automatic. It will probably fall between the CR-V and RX300, is more
truck like than either, but won't be confused with a conventional SUV
such as a Discovery, Jimmy or MB M-Class.

Regards,
David Cockey

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:20:36 EST
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings

In a message dated 98-11-24 05:00:39 EST, you write:

<< With the axle at the bump stop the angle formed by the
 shackle plate and main leaf is 30 degrees.  At full travel (against the
 limiting strap) the angle is 75 degrees.   That is a change of 45 degrees >>

To be as tactful as possible I feel the only appropriate response is
"Balderdash"
The springs on all of the leafers I have found a reference to are placed under
static loaded camber of less than two and a half inches. That means that as it
compresses it pushes the rear pin and shackle end to the rear slightly less
than 1" before it goes flat and begins to pull the pin back forward. At this
point the pin motion is back toward the front of the vehicle. Before the
spring goes another two inches it bottoms on the rebound buffer Again the
total motion of the shackle pin is less than 1". The shackle links are four
inches center to center which means the angle of motion is on the order of one
in four or about 12-15 degrees. In the neutral position the shackle is slanted
about 30 degrees to the rear at the bottom. Even if the axle dropped and hung
on the spring (a condition the check strap is designed to prevent) it would
probably not pull the shackle into a vertical position. The axle does not
weigh enough to cause the spring to stretch that much. I would say the maximum
drop would be around five inches that would give a total wheel travel of about
nine and a half inches which I believe is near spec. If the spring did allow
the shackle to come vertical the maximum angle of motion would only be about
30 degrees. If your check straps are allowing 8 or 9 (re: 35%/65%) inches of
axle drop then they are not correct. If that is the case you have either
damaged your shock absorbers or your suspension is so modified that none of
this applies.

Respectfully

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:27:05 EST
Subject: Re: How many amps in the fuse

In a message dated 98-11-24 07:30:57 EST, you write:

<< Our friend with the math disability makes a good point  >>

Hey fella! be kind to the handicapped. 

Wanna buy a pencil?

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:35:18 EST
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings(no flame)

In a message dated 98-11-24 07:47:06 EST, you write:

<<   As far as having loose shackles to improve articulation, I believe this
 is one of those concepts which seems to make sense but which does not hold
 water.  >>
I can see one condition where it might make sense. If you were to replace your
rubber bushings with some stiff plastic self lubricating bushings you might
approach the friction free spring action that is desired. Another trick I
tried once was to place polyethylene buttons between the spring leaves where
the lower spring end tends to wear the upper. seemed to help a lot.

Bill Lawrence 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:37:35 EST
Subject: Re: Rear axle leaking

In a message dated 98-11-24 07:48:33 EST, you write:

 If you go away in future you must arrange someone to take it for "walkies"
    John and Muddy
 
 >>
Thats what happened to my boots!

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:40:20 EST
Subject: Re: HELP!  Valve Adjusting!

Gas station?...Mechanic on duty?     What decade are you living in?

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter M. Kaskan" <pmk11@cornell.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:40:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Valves Adjusted

Thanks for all you help with my valves.  I went through and did it again.
Same result.  Clackety clack clack...  Mechanic said it dosen't sound too
bad.  Much smoother than before!!  Doing the 700 mile thing tommorrow.

I'm heading to MA, Worcester/Boston area in particular.  I leave tommorrow
about 930 from Ithaca, traveling 88 to 90.  I'll be in my bronze green 88
w/ limey-stone HT - RHD.
Cheers - I'll be back here Sunday, and going the reverse route - Peter

Peter M. Kaskan				Uris Hall 231
Office / 607-255-3382			Dept. Of Psychology
Lab /  607-255-6396			Cornell University
e-mail / pmk11@cornell.edu		Ithaca NY 14853
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/graduates/people/PeterM.Kaskan.htm
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/psychology/finlay/finlaylab.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:51:39 EST
Subject: Re: SOV's

In a message dated 98-11-24 14:50:02 EST, you write:

<< I do remember thinking as I read
 it and saw the pictures of all the weapons, now that's a Range(r) Rover.
 Also James Taylor has mentioned them in some of his books.
 
 Aloha
 Pete >>

How depressing that they are commonly referred to by their users as "gun
jeeps" ugh now i have to wash my hands!

Bill lawrence
Albq, NM

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:56:38 EST
Subject: Re: .Re: How many amps can fit in a fuse

In a message dated 98-11-24 08:34:37 EST, you write:

 Correct, a nominal 12 volts... which translates to up to 15 volts in a
 nominal car.  However, for the above calculation, using 12 volts
 automatically adds in a "safety margin" for your fuse size selection.  I
 would use a 25 amp, myself.
  >>
Do you get credit if you solve the problem but don't know it?

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:11:26 -0800
Subject: Re: SOV's

A. P. "Sandy" Grice wrote:

> >The US Army 75th Division (Rangers) uses 110 inch Landrovers in the form of
> >RSOVs (Ranger Special Operations Vehicles)

> Actually, I think it is only a brigade or two within the division...not
> many vehicles actually.   Tracked them down a while back (they were
> stationed at Ft. Benning at that time)

I talked with an instructor at LRNA who'd been responsible for training them
onmaintenance (apparently TDi).  They were in Ft. Lewis at the time.  LRNA keeps
a TDi in the USA for such training.   Apparently they (the Rangers) don't use
tranmission jacks and the like... they prefere to carry the things around
themselves :)

Jeremy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:08:38 EST
Subject: Re: SOV's

I think the only people they are trying to hide them from are at AM General.

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:11:56 EST
Subject: Re: Brake Fluid specs

There are several manufactureres making DOT 4 rated fluid now and Valvoline is
making one with wet and dry boiling points quite a bit in excess of the
specialty racing fluids.

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:21:21 -0800
Subject: Re: I think I need a distributor???

Zaxcoinc@aol.com wrote:

> << Seems kind-of sloppy to me, but why would this only affect the #3
>  cylinder???? >>
> Well, the dizzy is kind of loose, but it wouldn't affect the #3 cylinder
> alone.

Or would it?  The cap is fixed as is the body.  Perhaps the wobble is 
consistently
biased to one side by the gears or something leading to a consistent miss on #3.
Just a thought.

Interesting.

Jeremy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: David Scheidt <david@infocom.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:21:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: HELP!  Valve Adjusting!

On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 DNDANGER@aol.com wrote:

:Gas station?...Mechanic on duty?     What decade are you living in?
:
:Bill Lawrence
There are at least  three gas stations with mechanics within a mile of me.  

David

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:20:57 EST
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Dreaded spring bushings

In a message dated 98-11-24 11:20:19 EST, you write:

<< Apologies to anyone who may have been offended by insults directed at Tim.
 later
 daveb/greenHELL
  >>
Ahh, Bartender. BARTENDER! These guys just knocked over my beer!

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:24:17 EST
Subject: Re: Crimp vs Solder

In a message dated 98-11-24 11:56:44 EST, you write:

<<  For an amateur, with poor tools, soldering may have a place.
 >>
You got my number.

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:46:11 EST
Subject: Re: Mice

In a message dated 98-11-24 15:42:11 EST, you write:

<< well a couple of mice actually, =
 but I only want one so.. >>

Yeah, more than one and you will have a house full.

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Dale Smith <smithdv1@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:59:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re[2]: Dreaded spring bushings 

 Apologies to anyone who may have been offended by insults directed at
Tim.
 later
 daveb/greenHELL

Why don't you guys have another virtual beer and settle it outside(off
list)...:-)
Smitty

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 01:59:49 EST
Subject: Re: Dreaded spring bushings with confusion

In a message dated 98-11-24 17:15:50 EST, you write:

 I was part way into a spring replacement when all this stuff started and
 I've been a bit paralysed through pressure of business and confusion ever
 since.   In the hope of not offending anybody I "think" I have decided to
 join the _tight_ crowd as per the book.  But -- to what tightness?  The
 Green book doesn't say and I can't remember seeing a recommended torque
 setting here although it would have been easy to miss in all the welter of
 back and forth.
 
 So, how tight?
  >>
My green book says 60 to 70 lbf-ft.

Happiness is being tight.

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:41:17 EST
Subject: Re: Freelander drive

In a message dated 98-11-24 23:19:13 EST, you write:

 It will be interesting to see how LR positions the US version, and how
 it does compared to Discovery. Presumably the US version will have a V6
 and automatic. It will probably fall between the CR-V and RX300, is more
 truck like than either, but won't be confused with a conventional SUV
 such as a Discovery, Jimmy or MB M-Class.
 
 Regards,
 David Cockey
 
 >>

I had a friend who owned a 1966 Corvette with a license plate surround that
said "Yes I know they made Corvettes after 67, but who gives a shit?"

 I wonder how many people will be saying that about Land Rovers after some
date in the near future. You can only water the liquor down so far before it
stops being booze.

My tuppence

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: DNDANGER@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:49:03 EST
Subject: Re: HELP!  Valve Adjusting!

In a message dated 98-11-25 01:22:05 EST, you write:

<< There are at least  three gas stations with mechanics within a mile of me. 
 
 David
  >>
Far out! Can they work on your Landcruiser?

Bill Lawrence

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: INDIO2 <Indio2@cris.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 02:53:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bushing smooshing

Thanks for the excellent reply's to my post - even the two goofy ones.
The two goofy reply's first.

Bill A - That you would complain to me for being rude while defending one
of the biggest gutter flamers on the list is probably the strangest thing
Ive heard during this entire bushing debate.  Were I to act like Dave I
would now start calling you names and questioning the type of relationship
you guys have - but I will leave the sexual comments to Dave since he has
some "issues" I definitely do not want to be a part of.

Dave B - I will give you credit for one thing - predictability.  After
your personal attacks on my original post I thought to myself - why is
this guy acting like this to someone he does not even know and what could
be going on in his life to make him react to the outside world in this
way.  After writing my last post I decided to do a little experiment and
tacked on that flame bait paragraph to the top.  I included a few flame
lines using bushing related terms.  (Wanted to determine if my suspicions
were correct or if may be he didn't really take the goofy things he was
saying seriously)

Well turns out the stink bait hooked a whopper and I got my answer - Dave
you are quite unhinged.  Guess it wasn't nice to toy with you like that 
but a guy at the office wanted to see how worked up I could get you.  It 
is often said that the less a person has to argue with the more he will
fill the spaces with name calling and foul language - so thank you for the
numerous complements in your latest post!  Once again after removing my
text and the rude stuff there is not much left but what the heck:

 I believe it (the bushing rubber) is thicker than that, more like 3/16 to
1/4
You have been talking about the bushings all this time and you dont even
know the thickness!
Strike one.

> 45 degrees of movement split two ways is 22.5 degrees in either
direction...
Have you ever crawled under your vehicle?  There is more compression
travel than droop - it is not a 5050 split.
Strike two.

> Binding the shackle does not inhibit anything.
Of course it does - this isnt even being argued.  The twisting rubber
trying to return to its static shape is a force working against the spring
movement.
Strike three your out.

_
[#wU
8
`a

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: INDIO2 <Indio2@cris.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 04:05:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bushing Madness

Thanks for the excellent reply's to my post - even the two goofy ones.
About the two goofy reply's first:

Bill A - That you would complain to me for being rude while defending one
of the biggest gutter flamers on the list is probably the strangest thing
I've heard during this entire bushing debate.  Were I to act like Dave I
would now start calling you names and questioning the type of relationship
you guys have - but I will leave the sexual comments to Dave since he has
some "issues" I definitely do not want to be a part of.

Dave B - I will give you credit for one thing - predictability.  After
your personal attacks on my original post I thought to myself - why is
this guy acting like this to someone he does not even know and what could
be going on in his life to make him react to the outside world in this
way.  After writing my last post I decided to do a little experiment and
tacked on that flame bait paragraph to the top.  I included a few flame
lines using bushing related terms.  (Wanted to determine if my suspicions
were correct or if may be he didn't really take the goofy things he was
saying seriously).

Well turns out the stink bait hooked a whopper and I got my answer - Dave
you are quite unhinged.  Guess it wasn't nice to toy with you like that
but a guy at the office wanted to see how worked up I could get you.  It
is often said that the less a person has to argue with the more he will
fill the spaces with name calling and foul language - so thank you for the
numerous complements in your latest post!  Once again after removing my
text and the rude stuff there is not much left but what the heck:

> ... I believe it (the bushing rubber) is thicker than that, more like
> 3/16" to 1/4" ...
You have been talking about the bushings all this time and you don't even
know the thickness!
Strike one.

> 45 degrees of movement split two ways is 22.5 degrees in either
> direction...
Have you ever crawled under your vehicle?  There is more compression
travel than droop - it is not a 50/50 split.
Strike two.

> Binding the shackle does not inhibit anything.
Of course it does - this isn't even being argued.  The twisting rubber
trying to return to its static shape is a force working against the spring
movement.
Strike three your out.

To Marin F - I always read your messages with interest and I respect your
opinions.  I agree with a lot of your post but personally have not
experienced the type of wear that the mechanic you mentioned did.  On my
vehicles I have always greased the shackle bolts on install, used thin
fender washers to protect the plates, and adjusted the bolts to a very
close tolerance.  Also to be clear I believe that some people think that
when I say the bound bushings will limit or work against spring travel
that the axles will never meet the bump stops.  This is not what I mean -
just that more force is required to bend the spring when the shackle
bushing is working against it.

To Enzo and the others who were interested in my numbers thanks.  Briefly
- I got the angle numbers when my springs were apart - I reinstalled the
main leaf and used a bottle jack to cycle the leaf from bump stop to
limiting strap - used a protractor to measure the change in angle of the
spring and shackle plate.  So the 45 degree measurement is directly off
the vehicle and valid for the bottom shackle bushings.  I think our
numbers diverge from this point for two reasons - one is that the rotation
you should be applying to the bushing is greater than 22.5 degrees because
compression travel of the spring is greater than droop - as stated the
split is about 65/35 on my Series.  Also we may be measuring from
different points.  I made a tracing of the outside of the inner sleeve and
the inside of the outer sleeve and then applied the degree rotation and
measured the change in distance between two fixed points on the sleeves to
arrive at my numbers.  Our conclusions may also differ - I believe it is
poor design to expect the bushing to distort by over double its static
state - a thicker bushing should have been used in this application.  Also
Enzo you mentioned the groove worn in my shackle plate - this was not from
the setup I advise.  This groove was there when I bought the vehicle - the
sleeves were bound and where the rubber had disintegrated the spring eye
was able to rub on the plate - I brought it up in reference to using
washers. 

Well I have given my opinion on the set up of stock shackle bushings and
the reasons, measurements, and data associated with all of it.  I think I
will compile all the pros and cons somewhere on my web site.

Readers are probably saying man this guy Tim does not like the stock LR
bushings and set up - you are right!  Every other day someone is posting
with a spring bushing problem.  So in closing this chapter I will again
refer to Bill A since he asked me so "nicely" about urethane.  My
ultimate solution to the spring bushings on my Series III was to install
urethane bushings meant for the rear springs on a Jeep CJ-7.  I measured
all the bushings at the local 4x4 shop and found these to be the closest
match and also less expensive than the stock rubber LR items.  An
advantage of these bushings is they are twice the thickness of the stock
LR units and have a flange on the outside edge that insulates and protects
the shackle and spring eye from abrasion.  This isn't a direct "bolt in"
job - minor modification is necessary.  I installed the bushings with some
shackles with a brace welded between the plates.  Now I have a shackle
assembly that swings back and forth with very little resistance yet
provides excellent support against side to side distortion - did not cost
a lot either.

While the springs were off I disassembled the leaves, cleaned them, and
applied paint.  While the paint was still tacky I sprinkled dry graphite
lube (someone else on the list mentioned using dry graphite - good idea) 
on the contact surfaces.  Also modified the spring clamps so they no
longer restrain the leaves from sliding. 

While the leaf spring design is dated it is also strong and easy to
modify.  Just look at the points that are working against spring travel -
interleaf friction, overly tight leaf clamps, binding shackle bushings,
shocks that are too heavy duty, etc.  The Series really can have a decent
ride and articulation if these concerns are addressed.  Have a great
Thanksgiving all - even you Dave.

Tim Czajka
1972 Series III 88

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

  END OF * LIST DIGEST 
 Input:  messages 85 lines 3922 [forwarded 283 whitespace 0]
 Output: lines 2678 [content 2289  forwarded 234 (cut  49) whitespace 0]

Digest Messages Copyright 1990-1999 by the original poster or/and Empire Rover Owners Society, All rights reserved. Photos & text Copyright 1990-1999 Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved. Empire/LRO List of charges for Empire/LRO Policies against the distribution of unsolicited commercial e-mail (aka SPAM). Empire/LRO fees for the distribution of unsolicited commercial e-mail (aka SPAM). Frequently Asked Questions
<--Back	HOME	TOP	Forward -->	height=31 width=88 alt="Made with Macintosh" border=0>