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From: Ian Stuart <Ian.Stuart@ed.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:21:33 +0100
Subject: Re: UK Trip

Dennis White wrote:
> Ultimate Challenge" which is a two day Camel Trophy driving course at
> Eastnor Castle training grounds. We're arriving Friday AM and completing the
> "Adventure" on Monday. We then plan on driving our rented 110 up to Scotland
> and back through Wales to Gatwick, doing the B&B routine on the way (no
> formals plans or reservations) If anyone on the list has any recommendations
> on where to go or what to see it would be greatly appreciated. I'm on digest
> mode, so a private email would be great

Edinburgh is always worth a visit..

If you let us know the dates, there are at least two list members in the
area..

-- 
Ian Stuart
Computing Services
The University of Edinburgh

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From: "Andy Woodward" <azw@aber.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:09:05 +0100
Subject: Andy freaks under pressure...

\Most tires that come with the LT or Light Truck in their nomenclature 
\usually are constructed in a way that allows for high pressure. The BFG 
\All Terrains I own are rated at 85 psi. 

Mine are too. But the manufacturer's rated pressures for a specified vehicle 
are radically different from this. And insurers/TheLaw use the latter. If you 
are 
more than 10% away from these latter figures, they can nick you for a 
defective vehicle and insurers can get out of paying.

In my case, the ratings on the sidewall are 85psi and the manufacturers 
recommended pressures fro my 90 are 25 all round. The ogic is that the 
higher the pressures, the smaller the contact patch. at 85psi your contact 
patch is less than 1/3 the size at 25psi, so you have sod all grip and are an 
unguided missile.

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From: "Chris Dillard" <cdillard@Aholdusa.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:22:55 -0400
Subject: Re: mid-atlantic delema

I believe that they extended the registration deadline. I'm not sure of the
date. E-mail Sandy (rover@pinn.net)  and let him know your situation. I'm
sure that you can probably fed-ex the money overnight etc. etc.

Christopher (late entry) Dillard

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From: Dave Haynes <david.haynes@roke.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:21:16 +0100
Subject: LR Yuppies

TeriAnn Wakeman wrote :-

> Instead of Rover owners think of them as Rover care takers who are > simply 
> keeping them in good condition until the real owner can afford to 
> purchase the rig.

Sorry TeriAnn, but I still think its a
shame that the majority of the people
who own LR products (or most 4x4s for
that matter), have no
comprehension of what their vehicles are
capable of. Most owners seem
to think that a 4x4 simply means you can
drive over the kerb without
damage when parking!

I can't justify or afford the price of a
newish LR for the amount of
off roading I can get in. So I have a
20yr old Rangie thats falling apart
around me (My friends don't call it the
'Clown Car' for no reason).

When we can all afford to buy the newer
LR products, the electronics
and emissions controls will make it just
as unreliable as your Series
or my RR, and a lot more expensive to
fix. An abused 3.9 EFi RR, with twin
cats, electronic auto box and ABS, full
of mud and water and 
fifteen years worth of rattles and
squeeks sounds like a nightmare to me,
and I'm a professional electronics
engineer.

All those yuppies who own those shiny LR
products had better enjoy
them now, cos it's downhill from here
;-)

Dave

Dave Haynes				Tel : +44 1794 833583
					Mob : +44 701 070 3554
Roke Manor Research Ltd.		Fax : +44 1794
833586

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From: Lorri Paustian <lorri@sound.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 05:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Landies and Yuppies

Maybe you're right, but I think that the value of D90s will continue to hold
up.  Look at the price of the series compared to what they sold for
originally here in the US.  Even the ones that are in need of a lot of work
are high compared to other vehicles of their era in similar condition and to
what they sold for originally.  The rarity as well as the aluminum body will
help them to retain their value.

At 08:40 AM 9/24/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Instead of Rover owners think of them as Rover care takers who are simply 
>>keeping them in good condition until the real owner can afford to 
>>purchase the rig.
>Excellent idea  ! In a few more years we should see D90's below $15k

Lorri Paustian, Flatland Rover Society
Lenexa, Kansas
'95 Coniston Green D90 SW
'95 Arles Blue D90 SW
'93 D110

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From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:42:17 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?

In a message dated 98-09-24 14:32:08 EDT, you write:

<< > while the dwindling number of people who still
 > want to actively live the "bad" Harley lifestyle can't afford the bikes
 > anymore.
 I've heard this comment but don't believe it. (Not worth explaining here.)
  >>

    Just checked my morning paper.  14 used Harleys in the classified section.
Average age 7 years (1991),  average asking price $12,000.  Seems like a bit
more that the average Joe can afford to spend on a bike.

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From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:43:29 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?

In a message dated 98-09-24 14:32:08 EDT, you write:

<<  I didn't price the LRs in the '70s, but in 1981 the cost for a
 109SW was almost $20k in the US.  With all the options it would be well over
 that. >>

Grey market?  Blame the importer and the buyer.  They set the price.

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From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:47:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Heaps and Harleys

In a message dated 98-09-24 15:34:15 EDT, you write:

<< just about
 every bike I see broken down is a Harley...'meriKan POS, IMNSHO. >>

   A few years ago in a BMW Motorcycle magazine there was a picture of a
street sign which said "Motorcycle Parking Only!  Harleys must use drip pan"

                         

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From: Paul Oxley <paul@adventures.co.za>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:00:19 +0200
Subject: L-R chat

Hi All,

Just been trying to get into the L-R chat thingy...

Keep getting "Applet GUIClient cant init: NEW" message in browser's
status bar. Any ideas?

No, I don't have the feared Lucas Inside label on my PC. BTW anybody had
any experience with the new Lucas alternators? Just put a new 70A one in
the R6, agents (who are also Bosch agents) reckon they're as good as the
Bosch - a vast improvement on the old Lucas' with the layered diode pack
rectifiers that kept falling apart.
 
Regards

Paul Oxley
http://AfricanAdrenalin.co.za
http://Adventures.co.za
http://AfricanAdrenalin.com

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From: "Chris Dillard" <cdillard@Aholdusa.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:21:16 -0400
Subject: Series I (Purchase Questions)

Going this weekend to look at purchasing 2 50's series I trucks. The owner
say that he will never get around to re-building them and for me to make
him an offer. He "says" that out of the two I should be able to have all of
the parts to re-build 1 good one. They are both hard tops. He says one
frame is good and the other pretty rotten. Just wondering what kind of
things that I should look for right off the bat other than the obvious
frame, transfer box, etc. I'm not much up on Series 1's. Also, how much
should I offer if they are "workable". I'd rather start low then high!!( of
course). I'm not going with any expectations and I know that, or doubt,
that they will even crank. Just looking for advice. (before my wife tries
to tell me that I don't need ANOTHER LandRover) She said this with the
first two!

TIA

Christopher Dillard
Database Administrator        Phone: 864-987-8633
BONUSCARD Marketing           Fax:  864-675-5456
Ahold USA (BI-LO Inc.)        E-Mail:cdillard@aholdusa.com
Greenville SC USA             www.bi-lo.com

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From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:48:30 -0400

>Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>

>   We regret any inconvenience it may have caused if you received a
>  copy of the Scotland edition. You may return it to Microsoft for a
>  replacement version.

Congradulations are probably in order, Adrian.  Just saw a bit in the paper
that Denmark is officially the world's *least* corrupt nation.  Canada
comes in at 4th, the US, around 17.  The worst?  Cameroon.  Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

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From: "S. Vels" <dko5319@vip.cybercity.dk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:36:06 +0001
Subject: Re: L-R chat

> Paul Oxley <paul@adventures.co.za>
> Just been trying to get into the L-R chat thingy...
> Keep getting "Applet GUIClient cant init: NEW" message in browser's
> status bar. Any ideas?

Just did at test at   http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko5319/LRD/mainchat.html

Everything loaded fine. 

Are you still behind a firewall?

rgds 

sv/urens
The Unofficial Land-Rover Directory:
http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko5319/LRD/main.html

Land-Rover chat site:
http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko5319/LRD/mainchat.html
Sat-/Sundays 22:00 UTC

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From: Paul Oxley <paul@adventures.co.za>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:45:16 +0200
Subject: Re: L-R chat

"S. Vels" wrote:
> Just did at test at   http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko5319/LRD/mainchat.html
> Everything loaded fine.
> Are you still behind a firewall?

Umm, yes, but that shouldn't prevent me from chatting. I do SSL,
RealAudio, Java, etc without any hassles.
 
Regards

Paul Oxley
http://AfricanAdrenalin.co.za
http://Adventures.co.za

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From: Keith Mohlenhoff <krm@nj.paradyne.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:05:04 -0400
Subject: RE - Driving Series rigs in the US and Zenith MPG

Semi-related to TeriAnn's post concerning unused Series rigs

I have 2 series rigs and one classic Rig, The Classic came last in
purchasing order. Each month I use a different rig as my commuter
vehicle. This spreads out the mileage and gives us a spare vehicle, so
that if something needs to be fixed, it can be done at my leisure, since
after all Rovers are my hobby. I don't want to make it like... work.

Secondly, I calculated MPG for my 1971 88" 2.25P

>From 04/97 to 05/98 
6,863 miles using 464 gal = 14.7 MPG

>From 05/98 to 09/98 (switched to K&N filter)
2,403 miles using 168 gal = 14.3 MPG

The mileage on this Rover is now at 30,418 original miles
The Rover gets a mix of highway and local use.
The carb was new when I bought the Rover from the PO in 1997.

Keith R. Mohlenhoff
1963 Series Rig
1971 series Rig
1988 Classic Rig

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From: "Chris Dillard" <cdillard@Aholdusa.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:07:51 -0400
Subject: Series I Weekend

AM I getting through here? What the ?#$% is goign on with my E-Mail. Some
posts I get some I don't. Sorry for the wasted bandwidth!!!!!!!!!!!

Christopher (irritated) Dillard

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From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:10 -0500
Subject: RE: L-R chat

> Umm, yes, but that shouldn't prevent me from chatting. I do SSL,
> RealAudio, Java, etc without any hassles.
   

Depending on the chat program, it could... all of that other stuff
uses the nomal port 80 http stuff, but the chat programs usually
use other ports...

 -S  

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From: "Alain-Jean PARES" <InfoDyne@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:07:09 +0100
Subject: Re: L-R chat

>Are you still behind a firewall?
I have the same problem... And I have a firewall... Java chat doesn't work
behind firewall due to socket connection problems. (I did one).

Alain-Jean PARES
Fontainebleau, FRANCE
88D Series III

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From: "Chris Dillard" <cdillard@Aholdusa.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:18:02 -0400
Subject: Series I Weekend (Real LR Content)

This weekend I am going to look at two Series I trucks and would like some
general advice on what things to look at and inspect before I decide to
purchase or not purchase. The two trucks are 50's series I's hardtops. The
owner says that he will never get a chance to re-build them and for me to
make an offer on them. I'm not getting my hopes up as to what kind of shape
they are in. I doubt if they will even start. He (the owner) says that out
of the two I should be able to get one good rig. Are there things that I
should look for to see if they are worth re-building? I;m not looking to do
a"complete" restoration, just something to work on fixing up and making it
driveable to work around the farm and to take on short trips. Any advice is
welcome as I will need some reasons in my defense to use against SWMBO (who
told me i didn't need our first 2 rovers) in order to buy them if they
prove to be "decent".  What are MAJOR things to look for?? thanks for any
help or advice. Oh, also what would be a good price to offer assuming that
they are in "decent condition" I'm sure that they don't run though?? (I
guess that I should start as low as I can huh!)

TIA,

Christopher Dillard
Database Administrator        Phone: 864-987-8633
BONUSCARD Marketing           Fax:  864-675-5456
Ahold USA (BI-LO Inc.)        E-Mail:cdillard@aholdusa.com
Greenville SC USA             www.bi-lo.com

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From: Dale Smith <smithdv1@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:19:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: LR Yuppies

 All those yuppies who own those shiny LR
 products had better enjoy
 them now, cos it's downhill from here
 ;-)
 Dave
> Dave Haynes				Tel : +44 1794 833583

What a pleasant thought for a Friday. I remeber people were saying the
same things about the leafers 15 years ago. "All that abuse those poor
trucks take, in a couple of years they'll all be junk". Guess it all
depends on the owner...:-)
Smitty 

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From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:22:35 -0500
Subject: RE: waxing the end of the USA LandRover

>>      the D90 for the USA market was, I think at the time, a one off - not
>> available as a V8 anywhere else in the world (not available in any form
in
>> Australia)
>Or anywhere else in the world.

Last time I went to check the LR dealer, they had a D90 with rear
window-less canvas with a V8. Brand new.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

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From: Todd Schlemmer <nullman@ptinet.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:30:59 -0700
Subject: test test

My posts to the list seem to be vanishing into the ether...

bboT

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From: "Tackley, John" <jtackley.dit@state.va.us>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:35:10 -0400
Subject: RE:Tire ?

Anyone out there running 265/85/16 MT tires on their Series?
I have an opportunity to buy 4 very slightly used Cooper Discoverer STT in
that size for a very very good price but am concerned about the 265 width
compared to the normal 235 width.
Advice appreciated.

John Tackley
Richmond, VA

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From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:44:45 -0500
Subject: RE: L-R chat

>>Are you still behind a firewall?
>I have the same problem... And I have a firewall... Java chat doesn't work
>behind firewall due to socket connection problems. (I did one).
>Alain-Jean PARES

I'm behind a firewall too, and a proxy server, but have no problems.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

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From: "Robert A. Virzi" <rvirzi@gte.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:58:12 -0400
Subject: RE: balancing tyres

Peter writes:
>The reason I asked about balancing was the
>fact that there are no balancing weights on my current tyres and the
>balance seems fine to me.

Did you look at the inside of the rim near the hub?  I recently had my
tires balanced and the shop was able to do it by placing the stick-on
weights on the inside of the wheel, near the hub.  Should be less likely to
come off while offroad that way.  To see them you have to pull the wheel.

The other thing is that occassionally a tire and rim just happen to work
out fine together and don't need weights.  This is fairly uncommon, so I
would doubt that all four of your wheels balanced out this way.

Someone else mentioned bent rims.  There are shops that will re-true rims,
steel or Aluminum, should the problem be bad enough.
		-Bob

GTE Labs, MS-38            rvirzi@gte.com         voice: +1.781.466.2881
40 Sylvan Rd                                        fax: +1.781.466.4035
Waltham, MA, USA  02454

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From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:04:47 +0200
Subject: Re: corrupt?

Don't believe what you read in the papewrs Sandy - they're corrput too!
Here in less-corrupt Denmark, the news story was that Nigeria was the
most corrupt country in the world.

:-)

A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice wrote:

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From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:16:08 -0400
Subject: LROi piece

Brett Storey <brstore@ibm.net> wrote:

>Just got the Oct. LRO yesterday and I see there is a smashing piece
>in there on Greek Peak by Kevin Girling..., and I don't mean smashing
>in a good way.

Haven't gotten the mag yet, but the "main" article will be written by James
Taylor.  LROi sent him across the pond specifically to cover the event for
them.... Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

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From: "Alain-Jean PARES" <InfoDyne@wanadoo.fr>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:03:47 +0100
Subject: Re: L-R chat

>On a firewall you can specify which ports you allow and which you dont.
>What port does the chat use ?
>Find out and ask you network admin if this port is blocked.

After looking a little at the chat java program, it seems to be the port
3000

Alain-Jean PARES

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From: dbobeck@inetmail.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 10:48:24 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: Landies and Yuppies 

>Maybe you're right, but I think that the value of D90s will continue to 
>hold up.  Look at the price of the series compared to what they sold for 
>originally here in the US. 

The current price of Series rigs has more to do with 
a. the popuarity of SUV's
b. the popularity of LRNA products due to (a.)
c. the cost of rebuilds (people sink $$$$ into them.
d. they look cool and are fun to cover in mud.
The D90/110 has yet to prove itself in terms of longevity as compared to 
Series rigs. If there is any evidence as of yet it is more of the negative 
variety. Thinner aluminum, non-galvanised steel, drivetrain problems, etc. 
The SUV craze is going to take a downturn and all of these products 
including series vehicles are going to nosedive in price. Probably right 
around the time petrol goes up to the rest of the world's price.
I know you don't want to believe this, but with three Defenders you must be a 
real enthusiast and you oughtn't care what they are worth. They aren't really 
collectors items, they just look good and are fun to cover in mud. Kinda like 
Tanya Roberts.
Oops, was that out loud?

later
dave

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From: dbobeck@inetmail.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 10:58:45 -0500
Subject: Re: LR Yuppies 

> Most owners seem
>to think that a 4x4 simply means you can 
>drive over the kerb without
>damage when parking!

f course we know better...that's just a wee part of it...
there's also:

bumping shopping carts
door wars
games of "chicken"
gear oil spray keeps tailgaters away
u-turn *anywhere*
always remember where you are parked (follow the rivulets of oil)
everyone thinks you are on vacation(holiday)
get to leave people out of conversations
you always have something to do

I could go on...

later
dave

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From: dbobeck@inetmail.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 11:11:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Replacing door posts? 

>Can anyone briefly outline the method to replace them?  Do I need to get the 
>bulkhead out to do it right or can it be done in place.  I noticed that 
>several of the common suppliers in the US sell door posts but RN says theirs 
>are taller to make alignment easier for when I assume you weld them in 
>place. Thought?

mine were done in place. RN has two types. first is a one piece that nicludes 
the foot and the bottom 16 inches or so. Only includes the bottom two hinge 
holes. Mine were glavanised but not advertised as such. Measure within an 1/8 
of an inch and you will be fine, remember the hinge holes are on a movable 
plate to aid alignment. meausre twice, cut once, bolt it to the outrigger and 
the door sill and bob's yer unlce as they say.

the other one comes in two pieces, the foot and then the pillar. the pillar 
extends to above the top door hinge. I don't think these are galvanised.
no worries about getting the two hinges the wrong spacing but then you are 
vcutting away good metal already since they rarely rust up that high, and you 
still have to measure just as carefully to ge tthe foot placement.

If I was doing one I would buy the first item.

later
dave

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From: dbobeck@inetmail.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 11:24:38 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: Landies and Yuppies 

>I'm wondering where folks...who actually *use* thier range 
>rovers/discos come in.

Mud-yuppies?

:)

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From: "Franklin H. Yap" <FHYap@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:20:49 -0700
Subject: Re: waxing the end of the USA LandRover

Luis Manuel Gutierrez wrote:

> >>      the D90 for the USA market was, I think at the time, a one off - not
> >> available as a V8 anywhere else in the world (not available in any form
> in
> >> Australia)
> >Or anywhere else in the world.
> Last time I went to check the LR dealer, they had a D90 with rear
> window-less canvas with a V8. Brand new.

I believe that is new for 97 or 98.

Frank

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From: dbobeck@inetmail.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 11:31:54 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: Driving series rigs in the U.S. TW

>.Yes seeing a series rig on the open road must be REAL common if you 
>vividly remember driving past one 8 years ago.

>Thanks for providing data to prove my case ;*)

well, there isn't much "open anything" out this way, but I see one or two 
seriess rigs a month. One day we saw one broken down, pulled over, and onther 
drove by minutes later, and he pulled over. None of us had ever seen the others 
before. I helped the guy fix his coil wire. There are at least 5 Series Land 
Rovers in a 5 block radius of my house and there is a garage in Arlington that 
has one parked out front most of the time and works on them, but not well.
last time I saw one *driving* was about a month ago, and I was in my volvo but 
I bonked and waved anyway.

later
dave

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From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:36:06 EDT
Subject: Re:  Re: waxing the end of the USA LandRover

In a message dated 9/25/98 11:24:27 AM, you wrote:

<<> >>      the D90 for the USA market was, I think at the time, a one off -
not
> >> available as a V8 anywhere else in the world (not available in any form
	 [ truncated by lro-lite (was 9 lines)]
> Last time I went to check the LR dealer, they had a D90 with rear
> window-less canvas with a V8. Brand new.

I believe that is new for 97 or 98.>>

Land Rover UK offered a 90 V8 in the UK. I think it was a special edition,
like the 90SV. Currently you can buy a 90 V8 in the UK, from the factory,
which is 90% like the NAS spec one. It is RHD, obviously. Their last-of-the
bunch special edition SW is a virtual copy of the NAS-spec SW's.

FWIW, when I asked for a price list from a UK dealer two years ago, for a LHD
vehicle delivered in the UK, there were only two engine options listed: 300
tdi & V8.

--pat

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From: "Franklin H. Yap" <FHYap@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:37:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?

Jpslotus27@aol.com wrote:

>     Just checked my morning paper.  14 used Harleys in the classified section.
> Average age 7 years (1991),  average asking price $12,000.  Seems like a bit
> more that the average Joe can afford to spend on a bike.

Average Joes don't buy Harleys.  If you are into the "bad-boy image" and want to
get one cheap, there are ways.  You don't get them from the classifieds.

Frank

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From: dbobeck@inetmail.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 11:36:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Price Conversion 

>The US spec 110 has all the bells and whistles and is fitted with several 
>items not fitted to the UK version.
 >A Range Rover in the UK is circa $80,000, who is getting the better deal ?
>Don't tell the limeys that they are less than $70,000 over here. 

I was in a delaer showroom in London a few weeks ago and saw a 50th anniversary 
D90 that was exactly the same spec as the '97 US model. SD roll cage, diamond 
plate, V8, Auto, SW HT. About 27k pounds. About $43kUS. We aren't getting such 
a bad deal here...

later
dave 

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From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:39:05 EDT
Subject: Re:  Re[2]: Driving series rigs in the U.S. TW

In a message dated 9/25/98 11:32:24 AM, you wrote:

<<last time I saw one *driving* was about a month ago, and I was in my volvo
but 
I bonked and waved anyway.>>

One would have had to wave too, after *bonking* someone, in a Volvo no less...
;-)

--pat.

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From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:48:16 -0700
Subject: RE: Beginning of the end for LR?

>Does anyone know the legalities of acquiring an old Series vehicle, 
pre-1975 and rebuilding it with a new body, new chassis that happens to 
have coil springs?  Would it still be considered a pre-1975 vehicle, if 
almost everything else has been replaced and upgraded except for the
VIN?

I suspect that if you acquire a pre-1975 Land Rover and then proceed to
replace everything but the part that has the VIN stamped on it, or stamp
the same VIN on a new frame, no one will be the wiser.  People have been
upgrading leaf-spring Land Rovers to coil springs in the UK for years,
so it shouldn't be a problem to do the same thing in the US, although
you'll probably have to order the necessary parts from the UK.  As the
frames of the newer Defenders are somewhat different than the Series
frame, you may have some trouble fitting a Series body onto a Defender
frame.  However, if you're going to replace the original Series body
with a Defender body there will be no problem.  But I wonder if going to
all this effort to make a "new" Land Rover out of an old one will
actually cost you more than simply buying a used Defender 90.

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

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From: "Neil Brownlee" <metal_thrasher@email.msn.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:54:20 +0100
Subject: Re: LR Yuppies

Guys,

I've been reading this thread for a while now, it's really academic, if
someone wants to buy a vehicle because they like what it stands for, so be
it, but WHAT IF THEY LIKE THE DESIGN?!

I own a F*ord E*plorer okay, I bought it because I have a growing family,
the Scorpio I owned before it was fully loaded and did everything, but it
couldn't handle the luggage for 2 babies. I saw an Explorer, saw the
alternatives, weighed up the costing and decided that £28000 for a new
Scorpio Estate was worth spending on a £28000 Explorer, and I couldn't
afford the £45000 for an equivalent Rangie okay!?

I LIKE THE DESIGN. I have taken her off road, she performs fine, SHE HAS
LIMITS though, I take the old SIII anywhere, it only take a hammer to
straighten her out, but a £28000 car? C'mon!

I suppose I am among the minority in the UK, I am mad enough to try and
offroad a 1 month old vehicle (thats how old she was when she went mud
diving)...she got hung up on a tree, but hey, who cares? It's only a piece
of metal in the end, a bit of spray and ABS plastic put her back in showroom
condition. DON'T GET MAD AT THE OWNERS WHO BUY AN OFFROADER BECAUSE THEY
LIKE THE LOOK.

They are SUPPORTING the manufacturer by purchasing the NEW vehicles and
providing a market for the marque!!!!

GET REAL GUYS...STOP SLAGGING PEOPLE FOR OWNING PLUSH MOBILES EH?! My club
is an all marque club, and we all GET ALONG, we have Vitaras, Explorers and
MORE LR's than anything else, but we all LOVE DRIVING OFFROAD.

Anyway, I guess my point is, LIVE AND LET LIVE. If you are p*ssed off by
people buying new cars and treating them like 'trollies', live with it, they
will only them until the lease runs out in 2 years, and then they'll be on
the market again (in the UK anyway..at half the cost!)

Neil (gosh, I need pint now)

P.S.

To the touring people, if you want a base in the UK to see lots of places,
Northampton is as good as any, EMAIL me and I'll gladly put you up
somewhere!!!!

SIII '78 2.25 Petrol LWB Canvas - BNH 449S Salisbury Diff. Zenith Carb -
'The Rancor'

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From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:04:11 -0700

From: TeriAnn Wakeman <twakeman@cruzers.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 98 07:05:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Landies and Yuppies

>I think the best strategy is to let the status yuppies purchase as many

of these as possible.  Let them take very good care of these cars and
not 
abuse them while they depreciate.

>When the car has depreciated to the point where people who would use
them 
to their limits can afford them the cars will be in excellent well 
maintained shape.

The only problem with this strategy is that due to the small number of
Land Rovers, particularly Defenders, in the US, they don't seem
depreciate that much with age.  The best example is the group of
Defender 110s that was imported in 1993.  The selling price was $38,000.
All the ones I've been aware of that have sold used have been priced
much higher than that.  I've related the fact that an acquaintance
bought one of them for about $60,000 after three previous owners had put
a total of 30K miles on it.  I've seen D110s advertised in the US for
$40K and $50K, and the sellers seem to get what they're asking.  So far,
it seems that D90s do depreciate in price, but not much.  If the status
of Land Rover ownership continues in the same vein as today, the
Defenders in this country will begin to appreciate.  I understand that
old Series Land Rovers are starting to rise rapidly in price due to the
high demand for anything with a Land Rover badge on it.  I paid
somewhere between $4,000 and $5,000 for my new Series III in 1973.  It
is still in very good condition and runs well, but it is by no means as
nice as some of the restored Series vehicles you can buy today.  Yet
several years ago I was offered $10,000 cash on the spot by a fellow who
chased me for miles down the freeway.  So unless the Defender is
imported again in large enough numbers to satisfy the demand, or unless
owning a Land Rover becomes less of a status symbol, I suspect the
prices of Defenders, especially well-maintained ones, will begin to go
up instead of down.  We'll see...

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Faure, Marin" <Marin.Faure@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:20:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?

From: "Franklin H. Yap" <FHYap@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:28:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?

Faure, Marin wrote:

>> I just think it's an interesting indicator of how our culture is
> changing in the US.  Where there used to be a lot of people who
actually
> went out and did things, we now have more and more people who actually
> experience very little but use symbols to imply that they do. ...
Most
> new Harley buyers today wouldn't dream of participating in the social
> "activities" that created the current Harley image in the '50s, '60s,
> and '70s.

Altho the image of the Wild Ones with Marlon Brando helped to create
Harley's image, I believe he was actually riding a Triumph.

> > But by coughing up $18,000+ and buying one along with the
> required leather apparel, they believe they will get the credit for
> helping create that image.  In fact, they're simply attaching
themselves
> to the image's coattails,

>But isn't that what advertising does?  A huge part of a product's cost
is
advertising.  "Good" (a relative term) advertising can make ior break a
product.  Do you really believe that some cologne will have women
drooling
over you or that using shoes/apparel with a swoosh on the side will make
you
a better athlete?

Of course advertising plays a major role in a product's image and its
success.  As a TV commercial producer for years, I'm well aware of the
power of advertising.  And while intellectually you can reason that
buying a certain cologne or vehicle will have no affect on your love
life or whatever, people obviously believe it will at some level because
this kind of advertising works so well.  If it didn't, we wouldn't be
producing it.

> >It's the same with the Land Rover.  Very, very few of the new Land
Rover
> vehicles sold in the US today ever venture off pavement (the same
thing
> can be said of Jeeps and Landcruisers, too).

>Very few vehicles go off-road. Period. How many Explorers and Cherokees
are
sold every year? Over 1/2 million?  LRs are a small drop compared to the
others.  Yet, from what I have read (but am unsure where the statistics
come
from to back it up), LR owners take their vehicles off-road in a greater
percentage as compared to other makes.

You are probably correct in terms of the percentages when compared to
other makes of 4wds.  But even so, very few of the Discoveries and Range
Rovers sold ever venture off-road.  In terms of percentages, I suspect
that a greater percent of Defender owners use their vehicles off-road
than the percentage of Range Rover and Discovery owners.  But the owners
of the few used Defenders I have seen for sale in this area have made
much of the fact that their vehicles were "never used off-road."  To
them, no off-road use meant they should be able to get more money for
the vehicle, a position which seems valid to me.

>>  If the
> primary market for Land Rovers in the US was farmers who used them as
> utility vehicles, you wouldn't see the prices you see today.

>And, you wouldn't see any LRs.

Sure you would, if they were affordable, available in reasonable
numbers, had good dealer support, and were effectively marketed.  In the
late 1960s, the Japanese introduced their first small pickup to the US.
No one took it seriously at the time, but look what persistence, good
dealer support, and effective advertising has got them.  This is just
one example, but the Parker Ranch on the island of Hawaii, at one time
one of the largest cattle ranches in the US, had a large fleet of Land
Rovers in the late 1960s and early 1970s which were used for all
purposes by the ranch hands.  However, there was a Land Rover dealer in
Kamuela, the town where the ranch was located, and so parts and service
was no problem.  I agree that the situation today in the US precludes
any utilitarian use of Land Rovers, but if you visit other countries
where Land Rovers are among the choices for utility vehicles, you will
find plenty of companies and individuals who've chosen to use them.
Defenders and the earlier  90s, 110s, and Series Land Rovers are not
considered status symbols in most parts of the world.  They are
considered utility trucks, and for the most part are priced accordingly.

>> I'm not knocking Harley Davidson motorcycles or Land Rover vehicles.
I
> like both of them a lot.

>There has been a lot of comparison to LR and H-Ds.  I think the more
appropriate comparison is Jeep and H-D.

No, I think the comparison is valid.  In each case you have a relatively
old design that is priced considerably above its true value in terms of
technology and capabilities.  Yes, things are priced at what the market
will bear, so in that respect you can say the Harley and Land Rover are
priced accurately.  But when you compare either of them with equipment
from other manufacturers that do the same things, I believe both of them
are overpriced for what you're objectively getting.  If you add in the
image factor, however, this muddies the water a bit as you can't put an
accurate value, or price, on image.

>>  As I lived in Hawaii at the time,
> I thought the aluminum body would be an advantage in combating rust,
> which pretty much decimated the bodies of swb Land Cruisers, my other
> choice,  within a year or two.

>Rust problems in the island are usually due to a lack of maintenance.
(I
grew up in Jamaica.)  You learn to regularly rinse the vehicle,
particularly
after direct exposure to salt.water.  Even LR frames will rust.  BTW, I
have
seen worse rotted vehicles in Canada from the salt on the roads.

For some reason, some of the steel used by Toyota in the 1970s was very
prone to rust in certain environments.  I had friends who bought Land
Cruisers as well as Toyota cars who took extremely good care of them
including washing them down regularly.  It did little good; the LC
bodies rotted out in the same places on all of them within two years.
Mind you, this did not affect their operation: the frames and suspension
components did not rust.  Even the cars would begin to rust quickly,
always from the inside out where the steel was folded over for strength
like under the rear windows.  There is no way to flush out these parts
of the body without disassembling the car.  The Land Cruisers I see here
in Washington State of the same vintage seem to have no rust problems at
all, so there was obviously a problem with the steel Toyota was using
when it was put in a salt air environment.  My Land Rover, by the way,
developed very little rust on it anywhere during the seven years it was
in Hawaii even though I did not go to great pains to hose down the frame
and undercarriage.  I agree with you on the road salt issue; it is
devastating to vehicles because it splashes up into places that you
simply can't flush out.

>In terms of status, LR ads back in the '60s and '70s also emphasized
their
"heritage."  The ads I have seen weren't gesred towards farmers and
others
seeking an inexpensive vehicle.  And, as far as I am aware, the Series
LRs
were always more expensive than what could be considered their US
equivalent.  I didn't price the LRs in the '70s, but in 1981 the cost
for a
109SW was almost $20k in the US.  With all the options it would be well
over
that.

The 109 is a long wheelbase, not a short wheelbase vehicle (if that's
what you meant by "109SW"), and Land Rovers weren't available in the US
in 1981, so I'm not sure how you arrived at the $20K price.  But as far
as Land Rover ads in the '60s and '70s are concerned, yes they talked
about their heritage, but most of the visuals, at least for the Series
Land Rovers, depicted the vehicles at work.  I have many copies of ads
from that period showing Series Land Rovers being used to bale hay, haul
horses, pull plows, run PTO drill rigs, fight fires, etc., etc., etc.  I
have not seen any ads for Series Land Rovers promoting their
recreational use, although there may have been some.  Early ads for the
Range Rover, however, which went on the market in 1970, did emphasize
the "out on the town" aspect of the vehicle, although for awhile they
promoted the RR's working abilities, too.  You're right in that Series
Land Rovers were more expensive in the US during the years they were
imported than other equivalent vehicles.  A good friend bought a Jeep
CJ-5 the year after I bought my Series III; he paid over $1,000 less for
the Jeep.  The Toyota Land Cruiser swb, which was my other choice at the
time I bought the Land Rover, was priced about $500 less than the LR.
What percentage of the higher Land Rover price was due to import duties,
shipping, and so forth I don't know, but I'm sure that played a role in
the pricing.

__________________
C. Marin Faure
faurecm@halcyon.com
marin.faure@boeing.com
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:30:09 EDT
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Landies and Yuppies

When we moved to Downtown Sacramento, I felt we were becoming Urban Pioneers,
as my wife and I have agricultural interests, outdoor enthusiasms and a
general dislike of the City and Suburbs.  When I got into Land Rovers, I'm
pretty sure that makes us Uppies, not Yuppies.

Zack Arbios
Die Yuppie Scum.

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From: Tim Harincar <harincar@Camworks.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:30:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Driving series rigs in the U.S.

> It seems that most people who own series rigs also own another car that 
> is their primary source of daily transportation. 

Well, mine was a second car for the family. It got more use than a "hobby"
car, but not as much as the "primary" car. I commuted a lot with the IIa,
but didn't do as many quick trips.

I say "was" because I just sold it and bought a Discovery.

> When going on a trip or holiday, the series rig tends to stay home 
> because:

> - It is too slow...
> - It is uncomfortable for long distance driving...
> - The car is not dependable enough...

There is some truth to all of these for us. I did *a lot* of work on my IIa
to make is safe on the road. However, there were quite a few things that I
*didn't* do, so there was always the possibility that one of them would
fail. Yes, this is true with newer cars, too, but I'd be wary of *any*
vehicle with 90K+ miles with parts that I wasn't sure of.

Comfort was an issue, but not for me but my gear. I haul my telescope and
assorted astronomy gear in my Rover, and the leaf sprung 88 really beat the
shit out of my scopes. I always have to pull the primary mirror for a drive
and re-align all the optics after ever every trip. Dust was also in issue
with the scopes, too, but I tried to have them sealed up regardless of the
vehicle. I wanted to use the Rover because these sites can get pretty wild
in the spring & fall, and after a hard rain (usually the best observing
times), not to mention snow.

Speed was a factor, but not a major one for a holiday as we try to make the
journey. The nice thing about the slow Series rigs is that is doesn't matter
then if you take back roads. And the back roads are always more interesting
than freeways. 

Speed was more of a problem when I wanted to go observing. In the Twin
Cities of Minneapolis & St. Paul, urban sprawl is a horrid problem (though
many ignore it). My two observing sites are both over 60 miles from my
house, and that's not even far enough for good skies. I do a lot of
observing and that translates into a lot of drive time, usually at night and
on weekdays. I want to observe, not drive. The Series was good for keeping
awake, though :-)

The biggest reason for moving to a Disco was hauling the whole family. The
88 simply did not have space for the four of us (and more) so it got left. I
wanted something with 4 wheel drive for observing & such, but I admit, I
wanted modern safety features, amenities and something with more guts than a
109 with the 2.25 (not to mention smaller overall). We are a two car family,
I don't have space to start a car collection nor the money. 

I'm frustrated with the list right now for a lot of the generalizations
being tossed about regarding newer models Rovers and their owners. There are
a lot of Series rigs that are just as much symbols to their owners, no
matter the amount of reverse justification they use, as the newer models are
to theirs. Yeah, I'm sorry that all the new models have to be decked out. I
wish I could have bought a "basic" Discovery. I'm not so concerned about all
the extras in the US models as much as the overall design of the vehicle.
But I can't really control that. That's not to say that the leather seats,
etc., aren't *nice*, however  :-) 

My 88 served well. I use to have an FJ40 that died of rust here in the salt
belt. The 88 was a good rig for me at the time and in this environment, but
it's ability to do the job I needed and wanted didn't match my new
requirements. A Discovery does. Isn't *that* the true meaning of Land Rover?

Tim
---
tim harincar
harincar@camworks.com
Camworks, St. Paul, MN
http://www.camworks.com
Internet Solutions that Power Business 

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From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:46:16 EDT
Subject: Re: Landies and Yuppies

In a message dated 24/09/98 22:51:08 BST, you write:

<< owners (two terms which I
 despise), I'm wondering where folks like Tom W., Tom P., John Benham,
 myself, and others who actually *use* thier range rovers/discos come in.
 
wouldn't dream of stereotypifying ya  :-)>

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

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From: "Carter, Howard C" <Howard.Carter@PSS.Boeing.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:54:04 -0700
Subject: WTB: Land Rover Series I,II,III or ???

Wanted: Land Rover Series I,II,III vehicle.
Northwest US/Southwest Canada Preferred Area
SWB or LWB.  Any condition or body config considered.
Cash or trade for '88 Range Rover.
Thanks, Howard  425-454-3608

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From: Lorri Paustian <lorri@sound.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:01:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Landies and Yuppies 

Dave,
You're absolutely correct.  I really couldn't care what the value is of my
Rovers.  I have no intention of getting rid of mine.  I do hope that the
thinner aluminum doesn't make them rot, though. 

At 10:48 AM 9/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I know you don't want to believe this, but with three Defenders you must be a 
>real enthusiast and you oughtn't care what they are worth. They aren't really 
>collectors items, they just look good and are fun to cover in mud. Kinda like 
>Tanya Roberts.
>Oops, was that out loud?
>later
>dave

Lorri Paustian, Flatland Rover Society
Lenexa, Kansas
'95 Coniston Green D90 SW
'95 Arles Blue D90 SW
'93 D110

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From: Benjamin Smith <bens@psasolar.colltech.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:09:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Landies and Yuppies 

Dave Bobeck wrote:

> The current price of Series rigs has more to do with 
> a. the popuarity of SUV's
> b. the popularity of LRNA products due to (a.)
> c. the cost of rebuilds (people sink $$$$ into them.
> d. they look cool and are fun to cover in mud.

	I think the increase in price of Series Rover from about $5k US for
a good 88 in 1990 to $10k US for the same Rover today is due to the import
of the D90s to the US.  You had people who couldn't afford $30k for a D90,
but they could afford $10k.  So the price rose and took them for all that
they could pay.

Ben

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From: slade@dreamlab.cc (Michael Slade)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:31:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re[2]: Landies and Yuppies

>>I'm wondering where folks...who actually *use* thier range
>>rovers/discos come in.
>Mud-yuppies?
>:)

thanks for the laugh.

late...

Michael Slade
Portland, Oregon
www.DreamLab.cc

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From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:41:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Landies and Yuppies

RE:  The reliability of 'modern' LRs:

There is a nice article about this at Ms. Mango's Range Rover Web
(http://www.rovernet.com).  The article can be found at
http://www.rovernet.com/Burr's_zen.html 

C

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From: Paul Oxley <paul@adventures.co.za>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:59:11 +0200
Subject: Re: L-R chat

Alain-Jean PARES wrote:
 
> After looking a little at the chat java program, it seems to be the port
> 3000

Cool, now if you'll just tell me what type of server I must set to port
3000 I can chat. It's my own server and firewall and proxy (poxy), but
I'm technically illiterate so I'll just have to hack it out on my own.
 
Regards

Paul Oxley
http://AfricanAdrenalin.co.za
http://Adventures.co.za

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From: "Wise Owl Innovation Incorporated" <wiseowl@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:24:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Land Rover Series I,II,III or ???

Howard we always have some listings for Land Rovers for sale here in B.C. 
Give me a call or check  our website at www.bcoffroad.com/wiseowl.

Ray Wood

----------

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From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:18:35 -0400
Subject: tyre changing

Peter. I change my own Land Rover tyres, repair punctures etyc. I have never
found the need to balance tyres on any of the dozens of Land Rovers that I
have owned. I have discarded a few bent rims though. So my advice is to fit
em and forget em. Just be careful not to trap the tube with the tyre levers
or between the tyre and the rim. Soap on the tyre helps a lot when fitting
the tyre, try not to lever too much tyre at each stroke, say 50 to 100  mm,
ensure that the tyre bead is in the well of the wheel and that the tube is
not trapped there either. The XCL 's are a relatively soft wall so are easy
to fit, It is more difficut with 10 ply tyres.
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

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From: "PETER HOFFMANN" <dcc4851@vip.cybercity.dk>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:55:47 +0200
Subject: HOW DO I CHANGE THE 110 REAR BRAKE SHOES?

CAN ANYBODDY TELL ME HOW TO CHANGE THE REAT BRAKE SHOES? I CANNOT REMOVE
THE UPPER SPRING AS IT IS STOCKED IN THE TWO WHOLES????????

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From: Vel Natarajan <nataraja@cig.mot.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:39:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Winter, Waxoyl & POR-15

Steve,

I tried calling the number below for POR-15 (1-800-767-1577) and got
some company name Leximark (???), and they had no idea what I was
talking about...  Are you sure that's the right number?

Vel

>> Best place I have found to order POR-15 is thru 1800-POR-15-77
>Steve Bradke  68 lla 88

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From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:36:11 EDT
Subject: Re:  Re: Winter, Waxoyl & POR-15

In a message dated 9/25/98 6:42:54 PM, you wrote:

<<Steve,

I tried calling the number below for POR-15 (1-800-767-1577) and got
some company name Leximark (???), and they had no idea what I was
talking about...  Are you sure that's the right number?

Vel

>> Best place I have found to order POR-15 is thru 1800-POR-15-77
>Steve Bradke  68 lla 88>>

www.por15.com
1-800-457-6715
fax:1-973-887-8007

In New Jersey Call: 1-973-887-1999

That's from their order form.

--pat.

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From: asfco <asfco@banet.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:43:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Winter, Waxoyl & POR-15

Vel Natarajan wrote:
> Steve,
> I tried calling the number below for POR-15 (1-800-767-1577) and got
> some company name Leximark (???), and they had no idea what I was
> talking about...  Are you sure that's the right number?
> Vel

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 10 lines)]
> Vel
> >VEL;
  Sorry...the correct number is 1-800-777-6715
If you order from This number in Delaware you will not be charged
shipping costs or tax
Rgds
Steve

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From: asfco <asfco@banet.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:43:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Winter, Waxoyl & POR-15  correct phone number

Vel Natarajan wrote:
> Steve,
> I tried calling the number below for POR-15 (1-800-767-1577) and got
> some company name Leximark (???), and they had no idea what I was
> talking about...  Are you sure that's the right number?
> Vel

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 10 lines)]
> Vel
> >VEL;
  Sorry...the correct number is 1-800-777-6715
If you order from This number in Delaware you will not be charged
shipping costs or tax
Rgds
Steve

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From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 19:52:37 EDT
Subject: Re:  Greek Peak in LRO

In a message dated 9/24/98 6:45:51 PM, you wrote:

<<OK, so there were some problems, so what. For a first attempt at a
undertaking this big, what else would you expect. But there was just so
much going on that weekend, with the majority of people, I'm sure,
having a great time, that I think Mr. Girling could have presented a
much more realistic view of the event. I was there and certainly
didn't think the event was "spoiled".

I think Mr. Girling and LROI blew it this time.>>

I was there too. I don't really think Mr. Girling was *there*, if you know
what I mean. Besides, I don't really know what his capacity is within LROI, it
obviously isn't as a journalist, or even photo-journalist, in the traditional
sense of the term. Maybe the pan was because he wasn't given enough hats &
hoohas or VIP treatment, but then again, the Budweiser Girls were busy at the
monster truck meet down road, and the organizers & volunteers were busy
enough.

It is too bad that a Marque-Specific magazine would not emphasize the good
that came about from this whole event and then add some suggestions to make
the event better next year. 

You know, I heard some of that whingeing on-site, and I also saw the same
people kissing the vendors' asses trying to get more of a deal, and schmoozing
with the trade, etc., so they ought to realize that they wouldn't have had the
opportunity to get good gear at reduced rates if it weren't for the *whole
event* being put on.

They can only complain after they've done all they could to improve the
situation, and they didn't (help out, volunteer 32.5 seconds of their time or
do something nice for anyone they didn't know).

.02

--pat "I've got my asbestos suit on" parsons

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From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:10:10 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?

In a message dated 25/09/98 16:48:30 BST, you write:

<< People have been
 upgrading leaf-spring Land Rovers to coil springs in the UK for years,
 so it shouldn't be a problem to do the same thing in the US, although
 you'll probably have to order the necessary parts from the UK.  As the
 frames of the newer Defenders are somewhat different than the Series
 frame, you may have some trouble fitting a Series body onto a Defender
 frame. >>

Arrow Services at Doncaster, who make coilled chassis (frames) for Ser motors
can't make them fast enough for the US.
I believe something like 90% of their producrt now sells in the States....
Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

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From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:10:07 EDT
Subject: Re: LR Yuppies

In a message dated 25/09/98 16:16:22 BST, you write:

<< bumping shopping carts
 door wars
 games of "chicken"
 gear oil spray keeps tailgaters away
 u-turn *anywhere*
 always remember where you are parked (follow the rivulets of oil)
 everyone thinks you are on vacation(holiday)
 get to leave people out of conversations
 you always have something to do >>

had a double appointment at my GP the other day.
Did the business with me, then had to take a blood test from my SO.
There he is, looking for a vein, chatting away to me about the steering on his
110, talking about Billing etc etc... eventually my missus says "hey, I'm in
the room as well".....

so to add to you list:

something to talk to the doctor about after you've discussed your illness.....

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From: Russ Wilson <rwwilson@mho.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 06:52:15 -0700
Subject: Re: HOW DO I CHANGE THE 110 REAR BRAKE SHOES?

>CAN ANYBODDY TELL ME HOW TO CHANGE THE REAT BRAKE SHOES? I CANNOT REMOVE
>THE UPPER SPRING AS IT IS STOCKED IN THE TWO WHOLES????????
Step one is to hit the CAPS LOCK key on your computer.

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong...."
				Dennis Miller

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From: Allan Smith <smitha@candw.lc>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 20:43:52 -0400
Subject: Re: waxing the end of the USA LandRover

In that case there was only a short period when the V8 was not available.
It was one of the options on my '95 (ROW-spec) 90, and was still an option
when a friend here was "convinced" to order a 110 in 96.
Still making converts at every opportunity.
Allan 

>> Last time I went to check the LR dealer, they had a D90 with rear
>> window-less canvas with a V8. Brand new.
>I believe that is new for 97 or 98.

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From: Allan Smith <smitha@candw.lc>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:20:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Driving series rigs in the U.S.

At 12:30 25/09/98 -0500, Tim wrote:

I use to have an FJ40 that died of rust here in the salt
>belt. The 88 was a good rig for me at the time and in this environment, but
>it's ability to do the job I needed and wanted didn't match my new
>requirements. A Discovery does. Isn't *that* the true meaning of Land Rover?

To me that is exactly right - finding the right tool to get the job done. I
still hope one day to have the equivalent of the IIa I learned to drive on
in Rhodesia ( with a cushion on the seat to be able to see out front) , but
for now the TDi 90 is the best piece of kit for what I need to do. Sure it
has coils and all-round discs and power steering but, for example,  with
the past week's trucking of turf to where my house is being built I have as
much mud inside as outside.
Cheers
Allan

 

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From: "Franklin H. Yap" <FHYap@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 21:36:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?

Faure, Marin wrote:

>  ...
> than the percentage of Range Rover and Discovery owners.  But the owners
> of the few used Defenders I have seen for sale in this area have made
> much of the fact that their vehicles were "never used off-road."  To
> them, no off-road use meant they should be able to get more money for
> the vehicle, a position which seems valid to me.

Except that I know of people who claimed there vehicles nver went off-raod
when it did.  I even recall someone on the list (before it was split) who
used to talk about off-roading (but then maybe it was just talk) then
advertised trhe vehicle as never been off-road.

>  If the
> > primary market for Land Rovers in the US was farmers who used them as
> > utility vehicles, you wouldn't see the prices you see today.
> >And, you wouldn't see any LRs.
> Sure you would, if they were affordable, available in reasonable
> numbers, had good dealer support, and were effectively marketed.  In the
> late 1960s, the Japanese introduced their first small pickup to the US.
> No one took it seriously at the time, but look what persistence, good
> dealer support, and effective advertising has got them.

No, it was really due to lower production cost and higher quality control.
I know of productivity experts who went to Toyota to study how things were
done.

> ...  I agree that the situation today in the US precludes
> any utilitarian use of Land Rovers, but if you visit other countries
> where Land Rovers are among the choices for utility vehicles, you will
> find plenty of companies and individuals who've chosen to use them.
> Defenders and the earlier  90s, 110s, and Series Land Rovers are not
> considered status symbols in most parts of the world.

My understanding is Defenders/Ninety/One-Ten were traditionally priced
higher than the equivalent  Japanese 4wd which accounted for a large switch
in Third World countries.  While the long term overall cost of the LR may be
justified (altho some on the list doubt the longevity of the Defender), the
short term initial capital cost is very imjportant for poorer nations.  Even
the Jamaican Constabulary, that have always used LRs, recently switched to
Toyota LCs (Series 70s which I like) altho from what I have heard some of it
may be political.

> I think the more
> appropriate comparison is Jeep and H-D.
> No, I think the comparison is valid.

I believe the comparison is not the same mainly because the cleintele and
the number of buyers are different.  Traditional H-D buyers are not the same
as traditional purchasers of LRs.  Altho today they may be because of some
status perception.

The 109 is a long wheelbase, not a short wheelbase vehicle (if that's what
you meant by "109SW"), and Land Rovers weren't available in the US in 1981,
so I'm not sure how you arrived at the $20K price.  But as far

> as Land Rover ads in the '60s and '70s are concerned, yes they talked
> about their heritage, but most of the visuals, at least for the Series
> Land Rovers, depicted the vehicles at work.

I am referring to the 109 Stationwagon. There was a place in LA importing
them in the early '80s.  I got brochures, price list, etc. from them.  They
even brought a 109SW to the SF Auto Show in 1981.  I simply couldn't afford
the $20k and instead got an '82 diesel Westfalia vanagon camper.  (But it
couldn't cope with trails.)

Frank

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