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From: Thorsten Klein <kleit001@mail.Uni-Mainz.de>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:33:51 +0200
Subject: Re: Michelin tyres

Peter Thoren writes

snip
> it be wise, or even necessary to put tubes in them? They will be on
> original 16" rims.

Yes it is necessary. If they are radials (I think so) you need radial
tyre tubes

Bye, Thorsten

Thorsten Klein, Germany

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From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 8:35:00 -0400
Subject: BMW and the end of LR...

You read it here first. I predict that BMW will take a buyout bid from a 
larger auto manufacturer in the near future (<two years). Seeing that 
Mercedes-Benz has done so and become part of Chrysler Corp, it's just a 
matter of when, not if, BMW will go seeking a patron.
Then maybe LR will be an american company, and they'll move their 
manufacturing operations to Georgia or Mexico or Guatemala and the 
offices to Lanham ! Then the Brits can start importing parts from the USA 
( Wow, VAT plus duty....then the shoe'll be on the other foot!) Go NAFTA 
!

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

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From: Scott Wilson <scott@scratchstudio.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:03:19 +0100
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

> You read it here first. I predict that BMW will take a buyout bid from a 
> larger auto manufacturer in the near future (<two years). Seeing that 
> Mercedes-Benz has done so and become part of Chrysler Corp, it's just a 

Actually, Chrysler was the smaller of the two companies, so Chrylser is
really part of Daimler-Benz... Benz is actually the largest in the world
is it not?

The sad thing to me is that they are making the freelander, etc, but
the marketing doesn't seem to be pushing any of these cars... All
I see here in NYC are those Subaru Oubacks and Foresters...

(Or is the freelander not available here yet?)

-Scott

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[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: multipart/alternative; ]
From: "Mark L. Freeman" <baker@iland.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:14:48 -0500
Subject: Inspection Lamp Socket, Plug Is Available
	charset="iso-8859-1"

The male plug and wire adaptor is LR part # 560617.  Be advised that =
this plug has one pole sightly larger diameter than the other and may =
require that you drill one of the female terminals to accept the larger =
plug.  At some point the plug and socket configuartion changed and the =
older plug is NLA.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDE2DC.675A5E20
	[ Original post was HTML ]
[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: text/html; ]

	[Attachment  removed, was 26 lines.]	

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From: Allan Smith <smitha@candw.lc>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:19:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR?? 

>	Maybe we need to start the "Classic Camel Trophy".
>Ben

Great idea.
But just rename the original as the Classic (like RR), then restrict it to
only the square ones.

Dreaming on, on a Friday
Allan

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From: Ray_Burton@notes.sabre.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:34:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Beginning of the end for LR??

From: M.J.Rooth@lboro.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:05:58 +0000
>Whoever told you that?John Wayne won WW2....
>I can see the day when Solihull will be manufacturing "lifestyle"
>equipment.Bicycles,prams,sunglasses,teddy bears wiv funny 'ats on
>(Growls with a Bavarian accent),boots,jackets and trucker caps.
>No vehicles.These will be bought in from "approved" manufacturers.

Wasn't the first product marketed by Rover a bicycle?

Was it the Bavarian (BMW) influence that changed the Camel Trophy from a
true off-road event to a "yuppie-fied event" or was it the influence of all
the Yuppie-scum who purchase LR products here in North America.  I'm so
disgusted, I could just puke!

News note:  While at my local news stand last night, I noticed on the cover
of one of the automobile magazines (Road & Track, I believe), that BMW is
bringing out their own Sport Ute.

Now we know why they're killing the Defender line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,
Ray Burton
'64 S2a 109 SW "Lola"    '70 S2a 88      '84 lhd RR "Brown Bess"

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From: Ray_Burton@notes.sabre.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:39:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The Camel Trophy just has *got* to be renamed

From: M.J.Rooth@lboro.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)

>While we're on the subject.......
>The Camel Trophy just has *got* to be renamed.After all,the camel
>is big,dirty,noisy,slow,and useful.Just like a Land Rover (even more so
>a series Land Rover).But not like a Freeloader.So what do we call it?
>Donkey Derby?
>Pussy Cat Rally?
>Teddy Bears Picnic?
>Any suggestions...?

I think Pussy Cat Rally sounds good.

Wouldn't that be more appealing to all those yuppie wives who have Discos
and Rangies only for the status and to drive to the grocer whenever snow is
predicted!

Lord forbid that they'd even consider using them for what they're built
for.

Regards,
Ray Burton

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From: Ray_Burton@notes.sabre.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:42:16 -0500
Subject: Re: From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>

From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>

>What's a PRAM? Robyn Hitchcock finds them somewhat humorous,
>but he finds everything humorous, and Billy Bragg has a song with a
>line somewhere in it about "People ask me When will you grow up to
>be a man, But all the girls I loved at school are already pushing prams"

Scott,

A pram is a baby carriage.

Regards,
Ray Burton

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From: Steven Henry <sahenry@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:10:57 -0400
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

On Friday, September 18, 1998 4:03 AM, Scott Wilson 
[SMTP:scott@scratchstudio.com] wrote:
> The sad thing to me is that they are making the freelander, etc, but
> the marketing doesn't seem to be pushing any of these cars... All
> I see here in NYC are those Subaru Oubacks and Foresters...
> (Or is the freelander not available here yet?)
> -Scott

According to a NY dealer on Long Island where I purchased the car, I asked 
why are they waiting until 2001 to import the Freelander.  He replied that 
they want to fit a six cylinder to the car for the American market.  I 
don't know how true this is, but it wouldn't suprise me since Suzuki's 
Grand Viatra has a six cylinder engine.

Too bad Land Rover doesn't bring it over sooner to attempt to save some 
sales to the small SUV market.  In the NYC area there are many small SUVs 
with 4 cylinder engines.

Steven

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From: "Bill Fishel" <bfishel@cisnet.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:29:17 -0400
Subject: SIII rollbar

Hi All
At GP I seen a couple of Rovers with the military rollbars.
They were the two tube type. Anybody know where I can 
find one. 
I'm in NE Ohio
Bill

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From: MARCINKO3@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:29:54 EDT
Subject: Re: Deerslayer/ locked diffs.

All,

     One foggy night a few months back I had just put an LRNA bull bar and a
new set of Hellas on "Prince" my 97 Disco-zilla. (I had removed the burned out
hulk of the Warn-out winch from the front bumper.) 
     Anyhow, here we were, cruising at 45mph on a back road and just around a
corner there were two deer just standing there. I slammed on the brakes and
cut to the left where there were no deer, and being a straight section ahead,
I could see no oncoming traffic. Then the third deer jumped out of the bushes
and WHAM! I tend to ramble, so I will just say the LRNA bull bar did save the
grill, even though I believe it to be a piece of trash. It did smack into the
side and leave a nice dimple just behind the "wrap around" part. The Hellas
were ok too. 
     I am sorry to say that the deer did not fair as well. 

Rover on...

Steve

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From: MARCINKO3@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:36:59 EDT
Subject: Re: Modifying Rovers

In a message dated 98-09-16 17:55:22 EDT, you write:

<<  Do not listen to people who tell you something cannot be done. >>

All,

    I agree. I have pics of leaf-sprung Range Rovers in Africa. the roads are
so bad, this one guy adds leaf springs because he thinks they help. (?!?!?) I
will send the pics to anyone who is interested. Just email me under the
heading "Leaf sprung Range Rover" 
     Yes Alex, these are your pics. 

Rover on...

Steve

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From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:29 -0500
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

> He replied that
> they want to fit a six cylinder to the car for the American market.  I
> don't know how true this is, but it wouldn't suprise me since Suzuki's
> Grand Viatra has a six cylinder engine.

This is most likely true... Americans have some infatuation with anything
that's not 4-cylinder... A friend of mine was looking at the Audi A4. The
dealer told him that the V6 package was a US only marketing thing.
the 4 cylinder (with a performance chip and different exhaust system)
actually performed better than the 6 cyl. mainly cause the engine was
so much lighter...

I dunno... I can't wait for the SUV market to go the way of the minivan
in the late 80's.

 -Scott  

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From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:38:53 -0500
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

>I dunno... I can't wait for the SUV market to go the way of the minivan
>in the late 80's.

I have to ask.
And where did the minivan market went in the late 80's?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

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From: "Clayton Kirkwood" <kirkwood@garlic.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 07:49:21 -0700
Subject: any british bulldog comments

Morning-

Sorry for the cross post...

I have seen bb advertising on the big lists as a sponsor and seen
their web page (actually pretty nice!!), but I don't recall seeing any
comments on their knowledge, availability, pricing and parts quality.
I would like to see some remarks along those lines, please, both pro
and con.

TIA,

Clayton Kirkwood
(916) 663-2368
kirkwood@garlic.com

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From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:58:48 EDT
Subject: The Marlboro Trophy

     Today is the test of man and Rover.  20  miles over state forest land to
the in- laws along snow-mobile and motorbike trails.  No winch, no gps,  no
nothing but extra gas, camping gear, food and water, a compass and a mountain
bike for the just in case.  I am bringing a cell phone for emergency.  I took
the same route last year with a ATV and it took 7 hours.  It has been dry, so
the route should not be impassible.  I will let you know of my adventure!

Enzo

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From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:52 -0500
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

> And where did the minivan market went in the late 80's?
To Hell.

 -S  

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From: MARCINKO3@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:05:06 EDT
Subject: Re: any british bulldog comments

All,

     Never before have I found a more accommodating group of individuals than
at British Bulldog. I have a rather small business where I, among other things
set up Land Rovers for people. British Bulldog has always pulled the rabbit
out of the hat for me. I do not know, nor do I care if or what my own
reputation is in the "Rover community", but if I have a foot to stand on I
will do it with a British Bulldog decal stuck on my Rover. 

Rover on...

Steve Williams 
Armada Off-Road LLC

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From: David Scheidt <david@infocom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:17:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Luis Manuel Gutierrez wrote:
:I have to ask.
:And where did the minivan market went in the late 80's?
:
To hell in handbasket, the same way that the large sation wagon market did
following the introduction of the mini-van.  the next time gasoline prices
in the US take a sharp rise, there will be a gluto f nver used off-road
SUVs.

David

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From: Benjamin Smith <bens@psasolar.colltech.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:21:59 -0500
Subject: Re: BMW and the end of LR... 

In message <bulk.1208.19980918071048@Land-Rover.Team.Net>you write:

  According to a NY dealer on Long Island where I purchased the car, I asked 
  why are they waiting until 2001 to import the Freelander.  He replied that 
  they want to fit a six cylinder to the car for the American market.  

	All Freelanders are currently a stick shift with relatively small
4 cylinder engines (1.6 Liter I think) or diesels.   LR wants to fit a V6
and an automatic transmission before they import it to the US.   

Ben
--
Benjamin Smith                   "If I were running such a contest, I would
Collective Technologies          specifically eliminate any entries from Ben 
    (a pencom company)           involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere. 
Land-  : '72 Series III 88"      He'd drive it up the Amazon Basin for a half
 -Rover: '94 Discovery 5-Spd     can of Jolt and a stale cookie." --K. Archie

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From: lndrvr@ldd.net (BRIAN WILLOUGHBY)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:44:49 -0500
Subject: Defending BMW

Sorry, though I've held it in as long as I can stand.  I getting little
hacked off with all the condescending remarks levied against my friends in
Munich.  Someone correct me if I am wrong, though to my knowledge, the
Freelander was already in development when BMW purchased Rover group. 
Besides which, I think it's a bit presumptuous for so many American
subscribers to this list to condem a vehicle merely from descriptions and
heresay:  how many of you have actually driven a Freelander to find out
just how terrible and unworthy of the Land-Rover name it truly is.  I will
admit that I haven't and that I am open minded enough to give the vehicle a
chance.  If it proves itself to be poor incarnation of Land-Rover ideals
and engineering, then I will join everyone else in declaring it unfit.

I've mentioned this before and now find it necessary to do so again.  I
believe that BMW's purchase of Rover Group was the best thing that could
have happened.  Land-Rover owners (at least Series vehicle owners) are
their own cult.  To paraphrase several other postings, it was insinuated
that BMW would not continue to support "older" vehicles, that, as a
corporation, they made disposable, heartless cars and would force
Land-Rover to do the same.  Any of you ever heard of the BMW 2002?  Talk
about a cult car with a dedicated/devout group of owners who worship their
machines!  The 2002 went out of production in 1977 (U.S. imports ceased in
'76) and BMW still supplies virtually any part you could want for these
wonderful cars.  BMW hasn't let owners of its cars down (in fact, it
readily encourages restoration and preservation of classic Bimmers, even
Isettas!)  It's hard to fathom them taking this approach with Land-Rover. 
BMW respects history; if it didn't, why on earth would it continue to talk
of resurecting such long defunct makes in the Rover Group stable as
Austin-Healey and Riley?  If it didn't respect these makes, why go to the
effort of bringing them back in a market where most people have forgotten
of their former existance?

I've often been disgusted when buying parts for my Land-Rover:  they always
look like junk and cost a fortune.  At least Bosch components don't have
the appearance of having been pounded out by hand in a 14th century
alchemist's laboratory on a dirt floor!  I once bought some interior trim
pieces (which were very costly) that didn't even hold together for a month!
 And they were genuine Land-Rover!

Finally, I was frequently embarassed by Land-Rover prior to the BMW
takeover.  The quality control on Range Rovers and Discoveries had to be
about the lowest of any vehicle sold on the U.S. market at that time. 
Hyundais looked impressive next to one of these very costly British
machines.  I remember looking at a new Range Rover at a dealer that also
sold Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti and Cadillac.  A
puddle of oil was accumulating on the floor beneath the pan and the panel
gaps were so variable from top to bottom that they ranged from nearly a
quarter of an inch to scrapping each other at the bottom.  I had always
laughed at Cadillacs; I went away saddened by the fact that they were much
better built vehicles than Land-Rover's finest.  Though things are getting
better at Land-Rover.  While I don't know that we can ever hope for a
Land-Rover to be as well made as a BMW, one can always hope.  Perhaps if
they move production of them to Germany...

Okay, everybody:  I'm ready to be flamed and attacked, so let me have it!

Brian Willoughby
1960 Land-Rover Series II 88" S.W.
1963 Volvo PV544
1987 Volvo 240DL
1996 BMW 318ti

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From: TeriAnn Wakeman <twakeman@cruzers.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 98 08:43:14 -0700
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

> And where did the minivan market went in the late 80's?

I thought that they brought out 4WD minivans than soon made a few changes 
and called them SUVs.

An awful lot of SUVs out there are about the size of and look like 
minivans.

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
twakeman@cruzers.com           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   

"How can life grant us the boon of living..unless we dare"
Amelia Earhart 1898-1937

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From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:57:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Defending BMW

In a message dated 9/18/98 11:42:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lndrvr@ldd.net
writes:

<< Okay, everybody:  I'm ready to be flamed and attacked, so let me have it!
 >>
Afraid I'm going to have to agree with Brian on this one.  BMW has good QC,
and is excellent about support of their old product lines.  Better BMW than
Honda.

Nate

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From: "Peter M. Kaskan" <pmk11@cornell.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:17:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Anybody in/near LA??

Hi All - I'll probably be heading to LA downtown for a meeting around the
second week of Nov.  I'd love to see the territory around there in a series
(that is, if there is something nice to see). Well, Bye for now - Peter

Peter M. Kaskan				Uris Hall 231
Office / 607-255-3382			Dept. Of Psychology
Lab /  607-255-6396			Cornell University
e-mail / pmk11@cornell.edu
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/graduates/people/PeterM.Kaskan.htm
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/psychology/finlay/finlaylab.html

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From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:46:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Defending BMW

Has anyone noticed that the 1996 and beyond years of the Disco show
significantly less problems than the pre-'96 Discos?  Our Disco has had
fewer problems in 40Kmi than our previous *Toyota*!  Yes, BMW did crank
up production too fast after purchasing the Rover Group, however, they
did fix many of the QC problems they had.  

Regarding BMW and history:  I can walk into a BMW *dealer* and get parts
for our '78 528i, and they are usually *in stock*.  I sure as hell can't
do that for my IIA, and if I had a '78 SIII, I couldn't do that,
either.  So, I think we should wait and see if BMW abandons us.  Leyland
sure as hell abandoned us (in the USA) in '74, so at this point, I think
the evidence is in favor of BMW, not against them.

I understand why people don't like what's happening at Land Rover, but
do understand that BMW has had some rediculous number of profitiable
quarters (I dimly recall them going back to the '60s in an unbroken
stream).  They get there by doing things that appeal to a lot of
people--not just some niche (let's face it, that's what we are).  I'd
rather have Land Rover still in business and making different cars than
have them just gone.

RE Camel Trophy:
Here in Nor. Cal., I've actually been given a heaping measuer of $h!t
because of the pics from CT events (comments along the lines of "Tread
Lightly, my ass.  You guys are tearing up Mother Earth").  I don't
necessarily agree with them.   I'm sure that some of that hit Land
Rover, too.  So, they've turned the event into something more like
EcoTrek.  So what?  Land Rover is a business, and most businesses rely
on the good will of the populace to stay in business.  If people are
uncomfortable with an event with which a business is involved, you can
bet you a$$ they are either going to change the event or pull out. 
There are very few exceptions to this, and those usually either involve
a company that's too powerful to be moved by this (Disney & domestic
partners), or a company that ignores this and ceases to exist because
they pissed off their customers.

C

NADdMD@aol.com wrote:
 
 In a message dated 9/18/98 11:42:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
lndrvr@ldd.net
 writes:
 
 << Okay, everybody:  I'm ready to be flamed and attacked, so let me
have it!
  >>
 Afraid I'm going to have to agree with Brian on this one.  BMW has good
QC,
 and is excellent about support of their old product lines.  Better BMW
than
 Honda.

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From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:21 -0500
Subject: RE: Defending BMW

> Okay, everybody:  I'm ready to be flamed and attacked, so
> let me have it!

Hmm... I wasn't really going off on BMW per se... I'd be going off on
land rover had they not been bought out... it's just easier to attack the
"corporate" entity than the engineers and the manufacturers... they're
just making the guys who sign the checks happy.

 -Scott  

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From: Michael Carradine <cs@landrover.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:55:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Defending BMW

At 10:44 AM 9/18/98, BRIAN WILLOUGHBY <lndrvr@ldd.net> wrote:
>The [BMW] 2002 went out of production in 1977 (U.S. imports ceased in
>'76) and BMW still supplies virtually any part you could want for these
>wonderful cars.  BMW hasn't let owners of its cars down (in fact, it
>readily encourages restoration and preservation of classic Bimmers)

 That's because German law requires auto manufacturers to supply
 parts for 20 years.  The test for their support of older vehicles
 has barely begun.  Of course, today BMW sees the value of heritage
 vehicles, as do the German people.  They have become nostalgic for
 the older cars and pay dearly to repatriate 'classics' to Germany.
 Seems that another German law sent all derilic cars to the crusher,
 so now few examples exist in Germany and most all old cars are
 collectible.

 As to parts supplies, price was not mentioned.  A recent inquiry
 to Mercedes for a 20 year old vehicle resulted in a quote of $2400
 for a radiator, $1640 for a distributor, $96 for a spark plug.
 Sure, they will supply your old machine with new parts, but can
 you afford it??

-Michael Carradine

 50-80", 72-88", 89-RR
 55-404S Unimog  

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From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:23 -0500
Subject: Catskills? Connecticuit? WHERE can I take this thing?

Okay... I NEED DIRT!!! I got my cool GPS thing and the delorme
Topo USA thing, and found some "Jeep Trails" in the catskills...
Got there, and couldn't find them - only hiking trails with big
"No motor vehicles beyond this point" signs...

There's some events coming up, but most of them I would need
to take a friday and a monday off to get there... Normally that
would be fine, but I'm working like crazy lately, and I need some
stress relief... and some positive reinforcement for all this work
that I've been doing on the rover. Not that the work isn't positive
reinforcement enough =:)

So anyway... It would be nice to hear about some places to go...
I've bitched about this before, but now I'm doing it again...

thanks...

 -Scott

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From: "J.M. Reinan" <jreinan@grmlaw.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:16:58 -0600
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Land-Rover-Owner@playground.sun.com wrote:

> <<< This message is part 2 of a previous message >>>
> Subject: inspection lite sockets
> For a while I tried to use the sockets to  with jacks from the local radio
> store. They fit, but they shake out. This ain't no Bentley, after all.
> Rovers shake. Jacks slip, especially if a bunch of wiring is swinging
> merrily off them.

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 390 lines)]
> Subject: Water Temp Guage
> <<< Continued to next message >>>

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From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:20:25 EDT
Subject: Re: "British Car" LR fact & fiction

In a message dated 17/09/98 23:23:29 BST, you write:

<< Microwave Safe and Dishwasher Safe >>
not so, too much metal paint for the microwave and judging from the state of
my once favourite plastic handled cutlery before the SO put it in the
dishwasher not that either......

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:20:16 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR??

In a message dated 17/09/98 23:11:12 BST, you write:

 I like my car, I know what she can do, OEM companies will still be making 
 parts as long as people buy them.  The decay of the British automobile 
 manufacturing industry has long since lost it's ability to affect my cars.
 
 The British automotive manufacturing industry is dead.  Long live the 
 British heritage parts manufacturing business.
  >>
couldn't have put it better myself.
The only effect having Land Rovers actually built in this country has had on
me for the past ten years or so has been the ability to pop over to the
factory every now and again - and I've still never seen a Defender built
anyhow...

Doesn't matter to me where they build 'em. Mine's only fifteen years old, why
should I want another???

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:20:27 EDT
Subject: Re: RV: Thoughts on a Salisbury in a 90 for Luis.

In a message dated 17/09/98 23:57:04 BST, you write:

<< not common.
 I'll fix it up a little, try to make it more reliable and have fun with it.
 Any rover should serve for that purpose, even this one.
 I'm not planning to buy any big-bucks things for it. Maybe if I find some
 rangie drivetrain stuff (used, of course) I can begin to experiment, but
 those are only thougths. It can serve it's purpose as it is (well, almost).
 Thanks for your concern.
  >>
Luis,
if you remember I was one who advised against the motor before you bought it.
However, I was doing so bearing in mind the problems you could have with parts
etc.
If you are happy to play about with it and have fun then that's just what you
will get.
 I have never subscribed to the "everything must be original" train of
thought.
 There is often much fun messing about with non-original/standard parts and
still ending up with a Land Rover at the end of it - my friends and I have
been doing that with various Land Rovers for thirty years now. We've got five
between us, non is "original" but we love 'em.

You've got a Land Rover. Now you're going to make it YOUR Land Rover....in
five years time we will all know you for your Toyota engined Ninety with Ser
hardtop...

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"
 ROVER ON!!!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:20:37 EDT
Subject: Re: End of the beginning of the end for LR??

In a message dated 18/09/98 00:27:28 BST, you write:

<< I think the ghost
 was given up when the stage four emerged - the thin end of the "let's
 dress it up as a 'proper' car" wedge. >>
you don't think I could let that one go Adrian??

The ghost went out the window when they called the then agricultural 110/90
Land Rovers "Defenders".
Up to then each Land Rover model had been a natural progression of the other -
including fitting coil springs.
>From "D" day onwards it was downhill all the way.....

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW - A REAL
Land 
            "(o)======(o)"
Rover.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:20:43 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR??

In a message dated 18/09/98 00:57:51 BST, you write:

<< go out 
 & wash the TR3 >>
ah, but has it got flowers painted all over it ?

LR content- there's a Ser3 ambulance in the Valley painted with flowers and
owned by a very nice bloke and his SO I often drop in for a .....cup... of
tea.

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:20:24 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR??

In a message dated 17/09/98 23:11:12 BST, you write:

 I like my car, I know what she can do, OEM companies will still be making 
 parts as long as people buy them.  The decay of the British automobile 
 manufacturing industry has long since lost it's ability to affect my cars.
 
 The British automotive manufacturing industry is dead.  Long live the 
 British heritage parts manufacturing business.
  >>
couldn't have put it better myself.
The only effect having Land Rovers actually built in this country has had on
me for the past ten years or so has been the ability to pop over to the
factory every now and again - and I've still never seen a Defender built
anyhow...

Doesn't matter to me where they build 'em. Mine's only fifteen years old, why
should I want another???

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:20:33 EDT
Subject: Re: "British Car" LR fact & fiction

In a message dated 17/09/98 23:59:54 BST, you write:

<<  I have worked there 20 years, 
 and never used my cargo allowance.
   
   Just think what I could ship with that lot... a 101 one piece at a 
 time maybe?
  >>
or all at once??

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Michael Carradine <cs@landrover.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:25:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re2: Defending BMW

At 09:46 AM 9/18/98, Christopher H. Dow <dow@thelen.org> wrote:
:Regarding BMW and history:  I can walk into a BMW *dealer* and get parts
:for our '78 528i, and they are usually *in stock*.  I sure as hell can't
:do that for my IIA, and if I had a '78 SIII, I couldn't do that,
:either.  So, I think we should wait and see if BMW abandons us.  Leyland
:sure as hell abandoned us (in the USA) in '74, so at this point, I think
:the evidence is in favor of BMW, not against them.

 British Leyland didn't abandon anybody in '74.  US law at the time
 required dealers to support vehicles for 10 years after the date of
 manufacture.  I had bought a used '72 Series III in '76, and for
 years went to the San Francisco British Leyland dealership to buy
 parts.  As time went on, fewer parts were in stock and I had to wait
 a day or so for items to arrive from their Bay Area warehouse.  Such
 is the same today for low volume parts from many dealers or NAPA.

 Later I migrated to Rovers North, who became the official Land Rover
 source for parts, and who's service, inventory, and even prices were
 better than British Leyland.  Funny thing is, although parts sources
 were a concern, I never ordered very many since the Land Rover was
 built rather stoutly and thrived on regular service and preventive
 maintenance.

 BTW Chris, how old were you in '74??  ;)

-Michael Carradine

 50-80", 72-88", 89-RR
 55-404S Unimog

  

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:19:30 -0500
Subject: RE: Defending BMW

> As to parts supplies, price was not mentioned.  A recent inquiry
> to Mercedes for a 20 year old vehicle resulted in a quote of $2400
> for a radiator, $1640 for a distributor, $96 for a spark plug.
> Sure, they will supply your old machine with new parts, but can
> you afford it??

I have to agree that those prices are way too high compared to prices for
parts of other vehicles, BUT you have to assume one thing: a Mercedes is
always a Mercedes, no matter how old it is. I bet that if you went to the
dealer for a price quote on a radiator for a 1998 SLK the price would be
similar. For them they are both genuine MB parts, which have to represent
their brand. So on both you pay the price for the part and you pay the price
for the brand name. When new, the 20 year-old Mercedes was very expensive,
and so are 1998 ones. You pay the price for your "luxury" car, no matter how
old it is.
I'm not in favor of expensive parts for old cars, but you will always be
paying for the brand name, and thats a fact of life. You can't blame MB or
BMW for it, its just the way this consummer society works.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Wise Owl Innovation Incorporated" <wiseowl@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:21:34 -0700
Subject: Re: BMW and the end of LR...

Bill there was some interesting speculation in "The Economist" that Fiat is
considering joining with BMW.

Ray Wood

   ^   ^
  (0 0)
 v(    )v
---+ +------

----------
> From: Adams, Bill <badams@usia.gov>
> To: lro@playground.sun.com
> Subject: BMW and the end of LR...
> Date: Friday, September 18, 1998 5:35 AM
> You read it here first. I predict that BMW will take a buyout bid from a 
> larger auto manufacturer in the near future (<two years). Seeing that 
> Mercedes-Benz has done so and become part of Chrysler Corp, it's just a 
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
> manufacturing operations to Georgia or Mexico or Guatemala and the 
> offices to Lanham ! Then the Brits can start importing parts from the USA

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:31:55 EDT
Subject: Engine removal question.

Hi all,

I'm going to pull the old engine out of the IIa this weekend.  I'm being a bit
lazy and decided not to remove the wings (I usually do).   Those of you who
have done it like this, is there generally good clearance to get the engine
out without undo damage to inner wings or wiring?  (Everything has be
carefully moved out of the way).

Thanks
Nate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:30:43 -0500
Subject: RE: RV: Thoughts on a Salisbury in a 90 for Luis.

Frank wrote:

>You've got a Land Rover. Now you're going to make it YOUR Land Rover....in
>five years time we will all know you for your Toyota engined Ninety with
Ser
>hardtop...
>five years time we will all know you for your Toyota engined Ninety with

At that moment I hope I would have gotten ride of the ser. hardtop at least.
I have just begun to make it MINE, and as I said before, I already love it.
Thanks for the support.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:46:56 -0700
Subject: Re: Re2: Defending BMW

Why, I'm the same age as Rosencranz, so I was 9 in '74!

C

Michael Carradine wrote:
>  BTW Chris, how old were you in '74??  ;)
> -Michael Carradine
>  50-80", 72-88", 89-RR
>  55-404S Unimog

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Steven Henry <sahenry@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:58:07 -0400
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

On Friday, September 18, 1998 11:18 AM, David Scheidt 
[SMTP:david@infocom.com] wrote:
> To hell in handbasket, the same way that the large sation wagon market 
did
> following the introduction of the mini-van.  the next time gasoline 
prices
> in the US take a sharp rise, there will be a gluto f nver used off-road
> SUVs.

I rationalize driving an SUV in the next gas crisis by saying, it costs 
quite a bit more in Europe than America.  You will see a lot of people 
getting rid of the SUV that was used for mall runs.

Steven

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:52:01 -0500
Subject: LR chat

Does anybody ever continued using the LR-Chat site?
I found the bookmark in my browser and wondered if it ever came to life.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Steven Henry <sahenry@sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:00:17 -0400
Subject: RE: BMW and the end of LR...

On Friday, September 18, 1998 11:43 AM, TeriAnn Wakeman 
[SMTP:twakeman@cruzers.com] wrote:
>> An awful lot of SUVs out there are about the size of and look like 
> minivans.

The ML320 comes to mind.

Steven

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:04:15
Subject: Re: Engine removal question.

	You must be feeling VERY lazy.  Once the grille and radiator are out,
there are only 5-6 more bolts, if memory serves me correctly, on each
fender to remove them.  I find it SO much easier to work on the engine that
I remove the wings for any major work.  You might just remove the left wing
if that will make you feel like you have gotten away with something.  But
then getting at the clutch lines may be facilitated by taking off the right
wing.
	You will want the fenders off for the reinstall, anyway.  It seems to 
take
a bit of jockeying to get the engine to slide back in.  You can wade right
in with the wings off.  Hate to think what damage might happen if you tried
it with them on.  Did my first valve job with the wings.  Put a permanent
kink in the left wing trying to get leverage during the reinstall.
Aloha Peter
	

At 01:31 PM 9/18/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>I'm going to pull the old engine out of the IIa this weekend.  I'm being a

bit

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:04:03 EDT
Subject: Re: LR chat

In a message dated 9/18/98 2:01:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lgutierr@jccr.co.cr writes:

<< Does anybody ever continued using the LR-Chat site?
 I found the bookmark in my browser and wondered if it ever came to life.
  >>

I've been there several times at the appointed time, but never find anyone.

Nate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:08:02
Subject: Re: Engine removal question.

	You must be feeling VERY lazy.  Once the grille and radiator are out,
there are only 5-6 more bolts, if memory serves me correctly, on each
fender to remove them.  I find it SO much easier to work on the engine that
I remove the wings for any major work.  You might just remove the left wing
if that will make you feel like you have gotten away with something.  But
then getting at the clutch lines may be facilitated by taking off the right
wing.
	You will want the fenders off for the reinstall, anyway.  It seems to 
take
a bit of jockeying to get the engine to slide back in.  You can wade right
in with the wings off.  Hate to think what damage might happen if you tried
it with them on.  Did my first valve job with the wings.  Put a permanent
kink in the left wing trying to get leverage during the reinstall.
Aloha Peter
	

 I'm being a bit lazy and decided not to remove the wings (I usually do).   
>Thanks
>Nate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:16:38 EDT
Subject: Re: Engine removal question.

In a message dated 9/18/98 2:10:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ogilvi@hgea.org
writes:

<< You must be feeling VERY lazy.  Once the grille and radiator are out,
 there are only 5-6 more bolts, >>

Well, there's also the mudshields and steering box cover.  All told it would
add probably 4-6 hours to the process, but your points are good ones.
(However, the trannys out already and all the lines and wires are neatly out
of the way).

Nate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:18:11
Subject: Re: Rover's North web site acting up???

I'm only getting gibberish out of the RN site.  Anyone else having similar
problems???
Aloha Peter

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:23:00
Subject: Re: Engine removal question.

	What mud shields and steering box cover????  Thought those things were
ornaments for my garage wall.  Still shouldn't take that long though the
mud shield fender attach bolts are a bear to install, they come out easily,
however.
Aloha Peter

At 02:16 PM 9/18/98 EDT, you wrote:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: asfco <asfco@banet.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:25:40 -0400
Subject: Re: SIII rollbar

Bill Fishel wrote:
> Hi All
> At GP I seen a couple of Rovers with the military rollbars.
> They were the two tube type. Anybody know where I can
> find one.
> I'm in NE Ohio
> Bill
>   **

Yeah good luck...been lookin for one for a looong time myself
Rgds
Steve Bradke

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From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:31:03
Subject: Re: Engine removal question.

	What mud shields and steering box cover???  Thought those were 
decorations
for the garage wall.  The mudshield to fender bolts are a bitch to get at
on reinstall but they are easy to remove when taking off, shouldn't take
more than a 1/2 hour per fender on the removal side.  Won't the fender come
off without removing the steering box.  Never have had one of those things
on mine.  Think the PO removed as a safety feature.  When the goo on the
steering box ceases to grow, you know that you are out of hypoid oil in the
box.
Aloha Peter

Well, there's also the mudshields and steering box cover.  All told it would
add probably 4-6 hours to the process.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ggg@mediaone.net (Gerald)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:34:54 GMT
Subject: Re: SIII rollbar

Safety Devices in the UK sells roll bars for SIIIs. I don't know if
they are military or civilian. I know several people who made their
own.

On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:29:17 -0400, you wrote:

>At GP I seen a couple of Rovers with the military rollbars.
>They were the two tube type. Anybody know where I can 
>find one. 
>I'm in NE Ohio
>Bill

--
Gerald
ggg@mediaone.net

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: ggg@mediaone.net (Gerald)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:35:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Catskills? Connecticuit? WHERE can I take this thing?

I think you are in New York City. I recall a state park about half way
down New Jersey that was popular, but can not recall any more
information.

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:23 -0500, you wrote:

. . . . 
>So anyway... It would be nice to hear about some places to go...
>I've bitched about this before, but now I'm doing it again...
>thanks...
> -Scott

--
Gerald
ggg@mediaone.net

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:55 -0500
Subject: Rovers and Birthdays...

> Why, I'm the same age as Rosencranz, so I was 9 in '74!

Anyone else the same age as their rover? Mine is one month
younger than I am... I'll be 25 tomorrow, and the rover was born
in October of '73.

 -Scott

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Michael Carradine <cs@landrover.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:01:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: IQ, Rovers and Birthdays...

At 01:55 PM 9/18/98 -0500, Scott wrote:
: > Why, I'm the same age as Rosencranz, so I was 9 in '74!
:Anyone else the same age as their rover? Mine is one month
:younger than I am... I'll be 25 tomorrow, and the rover was born
:in October of '73.

 I am, sort of.  My Land Rover and I were in production
 at about the same time.  The LR was released first, me
 a few months into the following year.

-Michael '51

 80" Series I, 1950

 Hey, anybody the same IQ as their Land Rover model??

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Casey McMullen <st93wxta@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:03:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Rovers and Birthdays...

My 88" is two years my senior.  I can assure you I have learned to 
respect my elder, and do whatever it tells me.  It's a '72, I am a '74.

There is something cool about driving a car that is older than you are.

-Casey M

> > Why, I'm the same age as Rosencranz, so I was 9 in '74!
> Anyone else the same age as their rover? Mine is one month
> younger than I am... I'll be 25 tomorrow, and the rover was born
> in October of '73.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter Hope" <shdwrvr@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:13:05 -0700
Subject: A ?? for our friends down under

1.  I was wondering if the JRA/Perentie 6x6 rovers come up for sale often?
I have been contemplating a Land Rover camper conversion and believe that
this vehicle would be perfect for my plans.
2.  I have not seen many adds in LRW or  LROI mags, any internet sites
specialising in vehicles from OZ? For the 6by as well as other Series
vehicles.
3.  Also as a new resident of Hawaii, I was interested in Australian
aftermarket/OEM parts dealers.  I am thinking of getting a rover that will
need some work and want to check out my options for the parts I will need
(possibly a frame) and am wondering if shipping will be better from OZ then
the UK.

My last ??? is directed towards those in this country.  Every purchased a
vehicle from overseas?  I am very UNfamiliar with grey/gray/grei/grae (your
choice) market cars.  Say I find a foriegn vehicle that is of the same age
as those originally imported into the US (60's early 70's) are these legel
here?  Or better yet, is there a web site that explains the laws in this
respect?

TIA for the help/info.
Aloha (from Pearl City)
Pete

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From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:21 -0500
Subject: RE: A ?? for our friends down under

> I am very UNfamiliar with grey/gray/grei/grae (
Unfortunately, there's not "gray" market anymore...

You can basically bring in anything that's 25 years old or older,
so you're okay with 73 and prior...

I read somewhere that you could bring in something younger
than that, but you have to go through and importer, and before
you even get your hands on it, it basically has to be rebuilt to
meet current DoT regulations... sounds like a lot of trouble
to me...

 -Scott  

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From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:56:57 -0700
Subject: Re: A ?? for our friends down under

At the Shallow Alto field leak on Sunday, there was a guy who got a 110
Tdi into California(!!).  It took three years and $6500, but he's got
it.

C

Wilson, Scott wrote:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Joseph Broach <jbroach@selway.umt.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:07:28 -0600
Subject: Re: Rovers and Birthdays...

>> Why, I'm the same age as Rosencranz, so I was 9 in '74!

>Anyone else the same age as their rover? Mine is one month
>younger than I am... I'll be 25 tomorrow, and the rover was born
>in October of '73.

Sidney's 12 years my elder, give or take. I only hope I don't need a
"frameup" when I'm 31 :->

-joseph and "Ole" sidney
Missoula, MT

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Keith Mohlenhoff <krm@nj.paradyne.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:14:32 -0400
Subject: Steve's Deal of the day

I look forward to seeing what the deal of the day is, sometimes I get
pissed off, like early this week when I ordered a part from RN and later
in the day the same part was the part du jour. Today's deal looked neat
but how much are the filters once you used the two included?  LROI just
had an article on converting the standard oilbath filter to link up with
a snorkle, looked almost too easy.

Bad part is that here on the east coast I don't get today's deal till
it's more than half over. I think Steve should get up earlier

Keith R. Mohlenhoff

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From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:22:29 -0400
Subject: Synchro springs

Scott-  it is possible to replace the  third / fourth gear synchro springs
through the top of the gearbox. It is tediuos and requires patince and some
dexterity but it can be done. I have done it several times, I use some
surgical instruments " heimostat" ? ( the pliers surgeons use to clamp blood
vessels ) it can be done also with long nose pliers.
 Drain the oil, move the hub until the spring position is near the top and
using the pliers 'simply " push in the replacement spring. Rotate the shaft
and do the others !! It is tedious to 'simply" fit the spring, I can't
describe how to do it, just play with it until it goes in.
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:28:26 -0400
Subject: Pram

Pram is an abbreviation for Perambulator, the proper English word for a US
Baby Carriage.
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "The Becketts" <hillman@bigpond.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:42:10 +1000
Subject: CB Talk (was BurmaBright Brotherhood)

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Pat wrote:

Trevor, Trevor, come in, Trevor... List-to-Trevor, over.  (or whatever you
HAM'ers say)

Nate replied:
I believe it's "breaker, breaker good buddah"
Nate (just joking, I have 2 ham brothers WA7ZWP and WB7WFN)

I was wondering - if CBers say negatory when they mean no, do they say
suppository when they aren't sure? 8-)

Ron

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From: "The Becketts" <hillman@bigpond.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:33:22 +1000
Subject: : Kpa - Psi

Paul Oxley wrote:
>Need a quick spot of help... What is 1240Kpa expressed in Psi?

The quick and dirty conversion is kpa divided by 7 = psi so 1240kpa = 177
psi (approx).  The actual conversion figure is 6.895. So 1240 kpa =
179.84psi

Ron

Ron

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From: "The Becketts" <hillman@bigpond.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:45:14 +1000
Subject: Contradiction in terms?

>High quality British steel?
>isn't that a contradiction in terms - like -
>non rusting land rovers
>honourable lawyers
>sober judges
>p*ss*ed newts

Don't forget:
Cheap Porsche
Happily Married
Miiltary Intelligence

Then there are tautologies, e.g.,

Criminal Lawyers

etc,

Ron

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:36:32 -0500
Subject: RE: Contradiction in terms?

Ron wrote:
...
>Then there are tautologies, e.g.,
>Criminal Lawyers
>etc,

C'mon!
I said I was used to that kind of jokes, but dont take it on me!!!!
Weren't we talking about the bad side of stereotypes?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

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From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:49:34 -0700
Subject: Re: CB Talk (was BurmaBright Brotherhood)

The Becketts wrote:
8<
> I was wondering - if CBers say negatory when they mean no, do they say
> suppository when they aren't sure? 8-)

I've started replying with 'affirmative' and 'negative' because I've
noticed that sometimes people can't tell I'm saying 'yes' or 'no'. 
'Negatory' hasn't gotten in to my vocabulary yet, though.

C

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:39:49 EDT
Subject: Re: I think Frank's in overrun...

In a message dated 18/09/98 01:51:57 BST, you write:

<< Hi Frank - typing late at Elson Towers? >>
Hi Adrian and all,

sorry for smothering you all but I've just gone through two days' worth of
mails and found more than a few to answer, so I did.
I can go away and leave you if you like.
Now (cue violins) the reason I was away from email for two days is that I went
to see the consultant and the news was not as good as I was expecting.......

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:39:59 EDT
Subject: Re: Frankelson@aol.com

In a message dated 18/09/98 03:42:03 BST, you write:

 Today's Gold Star is for Frank Elson, our prolific journalist list member,
 whose employer obviously doesn't give him enough pages in the magazine...
  >>
Pat,
see mail to Adrian (probably two aol is still doubling up my first :-(> )
I'm not at work.........

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:45:43 -0300
Subject: Re: Engine removal question.

NADdMD@aol.com wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm going to pull the old engine out of the IIa this weekend.  I'm being a bit
> lazy and decided not to remove the wings (I usually do).   Those of you who
> have done it like this, is there generally good clearance to get the engine
> out without undo damage to inner wings or wiring?  (Everything has be
> carefully moved out of the way).

 Just pull the Rad that gives you lots of room to bring the engine out
and saves apile of time. A little care will prevent any damage to sheet
metal.
 John and Muddy

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From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:00:05 -0300
Subject: Re: Turbo

jimfoo@uswest.net wrote:
> William Leacock wrote:
> > > Is it possible to fir a turbo to a Land Rover diesel ?
> >  Yes it is Rover did it back in the sixties and again in the eighties, not
> > very sucesful on a three bearing crank, There are a few UK companikes that
> > offer kits, Allard etc.
>          Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever put a turbo on a 2.25 petrol?
> No I'm not going to, just wondering.

 Rovers North or Atlantic British used to offer a turbo kit for the 2.25
    John and Muddy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:19:17 -0400
Subject: Engine rebuilds

TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:

>If you are experienced wrenching, have a clean work space, can follow the 
>stops in the factory workshop manual and some time, you might want to 
>have a go at rebuilding them yourself.  If time is an issue or you don't 
>trust your ability, go for a quality rebuild.

Correct on all counts.  You *can* do it yourself.  The only thing that I
would add is go out an buy a parts washer that uses Varsol or some other
solvent.  Northern Hydraulics, and I suppose Central Tractor and maybe even
Crappy Tire have these 3.5 gallon units for about $100.  The only thing
you'll need a machine shop for is stuff like boring cylinders or turning
cranks.  If you are going to do it right, be sure to have the head
Magnafluxed.  Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:19:19 -0400
Subject: Next CT

>Todd_Wilson_at_Rivergate@ccmail.columbia.com (Todd Wilson)

>     So maybe we can help with the agenda for the next trophy.
     
>     Day 1
>     Identify major parts of the truck, err, car. Winch (that spooly wirey 
>     thing that hooks on the front).

We're in trouble from the git-go.  T'ain't no place on a Freelander for a
winch....

At this year's CT each and every Freelander was accomapnied by a "support
vehicle" fitted with a winch.

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:15:45 EDT
Subject: Re: Turbo

I do not know the cam specs for a 2.25, but if you wanted to turbo your motor,
it would be a good idea to lessen the overlap between intake and exhaust
valves. If they are open together for a long time (say, to help with
scavenging in a NA motor), the turbo will just blow the mixture right through
the chamber and into the exhaust, and the pressurization effect will be
reduced, as will the efficiency of the system. 

--pat.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:44:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Next CT

All the Camel Trophy Freelanders, were fitted with a removable winch, it has a
socket  for front and rear along with added wiring, so say their pre race
publicity.

I say let's string em up with em.  

Yuppie lightweights.

Zack Arbios

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From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:41:43 -0500
Subject: RV: Contradiction in terms?

>Ron wrote:
>...
>>Then there are tautologies, e.g.,
>>Criminal Lawyers
>>etc,

C'mon!
I said I was used to that kind of jokes, but dont take it on me!!!!
Weren't we talking about the bad side of stereotypes?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:57:53 +0200
Subject: Come back Frank...

Hey Frank,

I guess the comments about your prolificity were more of a compliment
than a whinge - keep 'em coming!

Adrian Redmond

CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 86 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
website				    www.channel6.dk
Visit the "Native Experience" project website at
http://www.channel6.dk/native

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 01:01:31 +0200
Subject: Re: Synchro springs

Could weak / bad / missing synchro spring(s) be the cause of my gearbox
dropping out of 4th at around 50 mph?

(He asks hopefully...)

Adrian

CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 86 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
website				    www.channel6.dk
Visit the "Native Experience" project website at
http://www.channel6.dk/native

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:33:39 EDT
Subject: Re: Synchro springs

In a message dated 18/09/98 21:25:22 BST, you write:

<<  I can't
 describe how to do it, just play with it until it goes in. >>
are we back to Clinton again??

anon

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From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:33:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Turbo

In a message dated 18/09/98 03:45:07 BST, you write:

 	 Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever put a turbo on a 2.25 petrol?
 No I'm not going to, just wondering.
  >>
yeah, I drove one a few years ago. It was built by a Turbo and fuel injection
specialist to prove that it could be done - and, yes, he'd injected it as
well!!!!!
mostly Ford Escort (UK version) parts if I recall correctly.

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:33:35 EDT
Subject: Re: Defending BMW

In a message dated 18/09/98 17:51:43 BST, you write:

 I understand why people don't like what's happening at Land Rover,  >>

I'm not sure that I do.
Yes we like our old Land Rovers, once we've spent a fortune getting them to
work properly, but this thread all started because of the news that production
of the Defender may move to South Africa...

Now how the hell can it matter where the thing is made so long as it is made?

I've got my own views about the Range Rover, Discovery and Freelander. I've
driven all of them, in most of their model ranges. I've aldo driven almost
every other Srer/type of Land Rover over the past 30 years - including the
very first off the production line, Camel motors, one of the Darien Gap Range
Rovers etc etc

You know what I drive.........

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:33:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR??

In a message dated 18/09/98 14:37:03 BST, you write:

<<  BMW is
 bringing out their own Sport Ute.
 
 Now we know why they're killing the Defender line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>

they're not killing it, they're building it in SA.
The Defender is not a Sport Ute - ask the farmers and shepherds who are my
neighbours. True they don't think much of the new fangled fancy colours, but
they still stick sheep, bales of hay etc in the back...

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:33:37 EDT
Subject: Re: IQ, Rovers and Birthdays...

In a message dated 18/09/98 20:04:35 BST, you write:

<< > Why, I'm the same age as Rosencranz, so I was 9 in '74!
 :Anyone else the same age as their rover? Mine is one month
 :younger than I am... I'll be 25 tomorrow, and the rover was born
 :in October of '73.
 
  I am, sort of.  My Land Rover and I were in production
  at about the same time.  The LR was released first, me
  a few months into the following year.
 
 -Michael '51
 
  80" Series I, 1950 >>

soddit, you're not going to make me feel old.
This is a conspiracy, right?

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:33:24 EDT
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR??

In a message dated 18/09/98 03:42:12 BST, you write:

 Yup, either: typing too fast or importing with "Renewed Traditions"... ;-)
 (Yes, Mr. Customs Agent, I swear it is a 73, it just has a "Defender-look"
 front clip... ahem.)
  >>
that makes me wonder what is the deal regarding rebuilds over there?
We have a tax exemption for vehicles built before 1973 and the drill is to buy
one. Put a new chassis on then report that to the licensing authority - who
change the details on our document, then  put in a new engine, write to them
again, engine type and # changed, etc etc....... That's legal

However, recently a guy drove up in a Ninety - with old number plates on and
said "d'you like my Ser11 rebuild?" and winked.....
all he'd done was buy a logbook for a tax exempt plus a new Ninety. Sent the
log book in for a few months until all was altered, then "scrapped" (on paper)
the Ninety...... not legal but who's to know?

is that possible in the States?

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110 CSW
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Todd Schlemmer <nullman@ptinet.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:05:56 -0700
Subject: New Tires (!) (?)

Just bought a 5-pack of BFGoodrich Radial All-Terrains T/A (235/75/R15 LT).
 I gotta face, prime, and paint my spare rim before I can get my spare
mounted; too many years of Pacific NW weather with the wheel on the hood
(er, Bonnet).  Any suggestions for this chore?

FWIW These tires at Costco US$ 78.00 + $7.00 to mount and balance.  I
would've gottem the mud terrains, but seriously, (and unfortunately) most
of my driving is not off-road (but these should get me where I am going
when I am off-road).

Question:  The Yay-hoo that mounted my tires arbitrarily decided that 35
PSI would be good; I find it a little rolly-polly on the road.  The tires
are rated to 50 PSI.  Is it a mistake to inflate to 40 or 45?  What is the
rational behind how the vehicle manufacture reccomends tire ( er, tyre)
pressure?

Todd

PS  RN's site is spewing HTML garbage like:

0) /Type /Annot /Subtype /Link /Rect [488 416 633 427] /Border [0 0 0] >>
endobj 13226 0 obj << /D [12868 0 R /XYZ null 570 null] >> endobj 13227 0
obj << /Dest
(I10.1.101885) /Type /Annot /Subtype /Link 

How do these things break?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:05:41 +0200
Subject: Buying a new defender - one bit at a time

The Land Rover "concept" is basically in conflict with many governments'
automobile taxation policies.

Government (or politicians) talk a lot about the need to keep a car in
tip-top condition - all in the name of safety. What they really want -
and what most european countries policy actually inspires - is cars that
quickly fall apart when they get to 4-5 years old.

This suits the manufacturers - as they sell more cars. The avaerage
lifetime of a family saloon is shorter today (I would postulate) than it
was 25 years ago. Despite the radical improvements in manufacturing
technology, materials, and service - the route from the showroom to the
crusher is shorter.

This suits government as well - every time a car is imported - tax! A
small family saloon which costs the dealer here in Denmark around 60,000
kr - costs the buyer, once VAT and import tax is added nearly 200,000

Good for the treasury maybe - but remember all the talk about "the
environment" - what is the extra cost to the environment for all the
extra cars manufactured and transported - what is the cost for extra
disposal?

Let's face it - when the farmers say "It's not us who's polluting the
river - it's the cows" can also be applied to cars. The car doesn't
pollute - it's the drive train and a few other bits. The car as a whole
only contributes to the pollution account when being built, and when
being scrapped.

With the way the used parts market is today - good, useable,
non-polluting replacements are easy to buy. Why not adopt the rover
concept to other cars - not totally implementable in practice - but
still feasible for many parts? Make the periodic inspections tuogh -
demand the lowest attainable emission levels and safety standards - so
that owners keep their cars in tip top condition - without having to buy
a new car.

For most countries (those which do not produce cars) importing cars
means a negative influence on the balance of trade - so taxation is the
only remedy to prevent total madness. But given the negative effects of
import - the net effect of import duties is only to redress the balance.
This raises the price of the car, reduces public support for taxation,
and doesn't really release revenue to repair roads or finance motoring
safety.

But if the car lasted longer - without lowering safety - the only one's
to lose out would be the car manufacturers - and itf the entire system
was geared to provide incentives for cars that last - instead of cars
that rust - then maybe even they would adapt.

Consumability has it's limits - look at the average car on it's way to
the crusher - how many parts of the whole are actually without problems
- many I would maintain.

So bying the new wagon is fine for me - if I can do it a bit at a time.

Adrian Redmond

CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 86 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
website				    www.channel6.dk
Visit the "Native Experience" project website at
http://www.channel6.dk/native

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Todd Schlemmer <nullman@ptinet.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:14:24 -0700
Subject: The English Channels

I need to replace the channels, tracks, grooves in the door tops, in which
the glass slides.  It looks a devilish task.  Any words of wisdom ( on this
subject)?

Todd

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From: Scott Wilson <scott@scratchstudio.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:21:29 +0100
Subject: RE: New Tires (!) (?)

> The tires
> are rated to 50 PSI.  Is it a mistake to inflate to 40 or 45?  What is the
> rational behind how the vehicle manufacture reccomends tire ( er, tyre)
> pressure?

If the tires say 50, use 50. I have The Cooper Discoverers Mud Terrain,
and if they were any less than 50PSI, I would feel bad driving them 
around. At 50 they seem to be the correct "shape" for radials with just 
enough bulge at the bottom of the tire.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Todd Schlemmer <nullman@ptinet.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:27:27 -0700
Subject: Apples and Oranges

As an owner of several old / classic Mercedes Benz's  I wanted to offer the
following information.  

1) old MB's are VERY reliable vehicles (fewer spares needed).
2) MB stocks (or will fabricate!  $$$) every part ever produced.  
3) old MB's frequently get trashed because the interior is uninhabitable,
rather than due to mechanical crisis.   
4) there are a LOT of old MB's available as parts cars, this is due to both
the above item and the relative popularity of the cars.
5) MB offers 24 hour roadside assistance to ANY MB owner.
6) MB will search the WORLD for any model MB you might want.
7) as daily drivers go, old MB's are a bargain.
8) I have a good MB mechanic, I have no interest in
tuning/modifying/fiddling with the Benz'
9) I love monkeying with the rover!

my $.02
Todd

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:32:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Defending BMW

Christopher H. Dow wrote:

> Has anyone noticed that the 1996 and beyond years of the Disco show
> significantly less problems than the pre-'96 Discos?  Our Disco has had
> fewer problems in 40Kmi than our previous *Toyota*!

Supposedly LRs customer approval ratings are now up in the top ten with
Lexus,Cadillac and the like.

>  I'd rather have Land Rover still in business and making different cars
> than
> have them just gone.

On that note I'll add that in my view LR was essentially "created" the
luxury 4x4 marketwith the RR... whether or not you think that was a good
thing.

Jeremy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:35:01 -0300
Subject: Re: New Tires (!) (?)

Todd Schlemmer wrote:
> Just bought a 5-pack of BFGoodrich Radial All-Terrains T/A (235/75/R15 LT).
>  I gotta face, prime, and paint my spare rim before I can get my spare
> mounted; too many years of Pacific NW weather with the wheel on the hood
> (er, Bonnet).  Any suggestions for this chore?
> FWIW These tires at Costco US$ 78.00 + $7.00 to mount and balance.  I
> would've gottem the mud terrains, but seriously, (and unfortunately) most
> of my driving is not off-road (but these should get me where I am going
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 15 lines)]
> rational behind how the vehicle manufacture reccomends tire ( er, tyre)
> pressure
I wish we could get this misconseption put to rest. The inflation
pressure stated on the tire is the Max Safe pressure. It is Not a
recommended pressure for use. If you are not comfortable at 35psi put
in  a couple of lbs at a time until you get there. Quite frankly the
idea of driving around in a Land Rover on tires as high as 50psi scares
me.
The tire contact patch is so small on a rock hard tire that the
possibility of skidding on any thing that bone dry pavement is extreme.
 One other thing to remember if you are useing 16 inch tires is that
many in this size are intended for use one 1 ton + trucks and may well
have a Max Pressure of over 80psi to support a high Gross Vehicle Wieght
which of course does not apply to LandRovers.
   John and Muddy

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From: GElam30092@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:36:33 EDT
Subject: Re: Defending BMW

In a message dated 9/18/98 5:29:45 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
bartlett@slip.net writes:

<< Supposedly LRs customer approval ratings are now up in the top ten with
 Lexus,Cadillac and the like. >>

I think I saw the survey mentioned in the paper.  If my memory is correct
(never a good bet),  the order was Lexus, Caddy and Land Rover as the top 3.

Regarding M-B's:  good points all and I've frequently thought about buying one
when the summer heat finally get to me (if it hasn't already).  I mean, here
it is the third week in Sept. and it's still 107 here today.  Yep.... bout
this time of the year, it starts getting to me.  But how many M-B's are used
in the same manner as LR's?

Have a nice weekend all....
Gerry Elam
PHX AZ

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From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:50:22 +0200
Subject: Re: The English Channels

Todd asked about the english channels (rerplacing the window bits in a
SIII door)

before you start - ask youirself if it's only the channels which are
rusted or moth-eaten - often (usually) there is considerable rust inside
the cavity between where the top and bottom doors sections meet, and the
underside of the window channel. If this is the case, replacing the
entire doortop is much easier.

Door tops come in two versions - one is a steel simple frame with
aluminium cladding, unpainted. The other is fittied with glass and
channels, also unpainted.

I always go for the simple version, because there's no point putting an
unpainted, yet assembled version into the car - it will rust within
three years.

I have a recipe for this project -

Take the aluminium cladding off - carefully, so that you can reuse it.

Clean the steel frame, and paint with 2 coats anti rust primer (or
galvanise/metalise if preferred)

Paint inside of aluminium cladding with 2 coats ditto.

When dry, line the cladding with either silicone/plastic mastic or
plastic Nitto tape to prevent galvanic corrosion between cladding and
frame - rassemble and lean extra mastic off.

1 coat rust primer again - then 2 coats top coat. When priming, make
sure to run paint inside the frame, rotate the frame to distribute
evenly (or waxoyl).

I use the black mastic which builders use between window frames and
bricks to hold the glass in place. Applying this is easy.

Installing new track for the opening window is easy - just drill the
track and pilot drill the frame, then use countersunk self threading
screws hold it in place. Remember the aluminium spacers. Press the
channel sides together to ensure a tight fit. The top channel often
widens due to slamming the door to get it to close right - eventually -
one day when you are slamming it in a car park in pouring rain, the
window glass falls into your lap)

When fitting the channel and alu. spacers, use sealent/mastic between
these and the metal to keep water out.

If you want the job to last then new door tops and hand-building is
essential - and much easier that ripping rusted track out and removing
old rust - it's just too much bother for a result which is
disappointing.

Good luck!

Adrian Redmond

CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
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e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
website				    www.channel6.dk
Visit the "Native Experience" project website at
http://www.channel6.dk/native

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From: David Cockey <dcockey@tir.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:04:17 -0400
Subject: Re: BMW and the end of LR...

Replies to miscellaneous parts of this thread:

LR announced that the Freelander will have a V6 and automatic
transmission when imported into the US. Neither is currently available.
This is probably the reason for the delay.

Technically Chrysler will be merged into Daimler-Benz and the resulting
company renamed Daimler-Chrysler. This is partly due to German laws
which would mean large taxes and other problems if the resulting company
was non-German. There was a report/speculation on Detroit radio today
that a significant portion of the new companies operations would end up
in the US because of lower tax rates. I'll wait and see.

Minivan sales in the US have been flat for several years, but have not
declined. The usual definition of a minivan includes having a "flat
floor" with removable seats (for classification as a truck for CAFE
purposes, etc.) and "short" hood. I'm not aware of any SUV's directly
derived from minivans. SUV's are usually tall "station wagon" type
vehicles with a folding second seat and 4WD/AWD available.

GM is the largest car/truck company in the world. My recollection is
that Ford is the second largest and Toyota third. I think Chrysler
builds more vehicles than Daimler-Benz, but DB is the larger company
when non-automotive business is included.

GM tried to buy LR in the mid-80's as part of a combined purchase of
Leyland truck and LR which would have established Britian as a major
center for GM truck engineering and production. The Millbrook proving
ground was going to be the GM truck proving ground. "Keep LR British"
sentiment caused the UK government to stop the deal. Leyland was then
sold/given to DAF, who soon afterwards ran into severe financial
problems. LR was combined back with Austin/Rover,  and "sold" to British
Aerospace, from whom BMW purchased it.

Rumors of the sale of BMW have been emerging periodically for a decade
or more. Most seem to based on the assumption that BMW will eventually
be too small. Given GM's present state of affairs, I doubt GM would go
after BMW. A european partnership, or a partnership with a truck maker
might be possible.

Be skeptical of what salesman at dealers tell you. The dealers do get
some limited, advance information on products from the manufactuers, but
not very far ahead of the press. They may also read the trade press
including Automotive News. On the other hand salesman may be motivated
to tell you what they think will help a sale or impress you.

Regards,
David Cockey

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From: Jpslotus27@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:07:57 EDT
Subject: Re:  The Marlboro Trophy

In a message dated 9/18/98 3:02:53 PM, you wrote:

<<Today is the test of man and Rover.  20  miles over state forest land to
the in- laws along snow-mobile and motorbike trails.  No winch, no gps,  no
nothing but extra gas, camping gear, food and water, a compass and a mountain
bike for the just in case.  I am bringing a cell phone for emergency.  I took
the same route last year with a ATV and it took 7 hours.  It has been dry, so
the route should not be impassible.  I will let you know of my adventure!
<<Today is the test of man and Rover.  20  miles over state forest land to

    I made it!   Hell, a freelander could have made it. (No, I've never driven
one, but I don't have to drink piss to know it's salty.)  Maybe I'll give it a
go in the snow melt season.  The only trouble was the narrowness of the track
in some spots.

Off to bed (only 9:00pm, I know.  It wasn't THAT easy!)

Enzo

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From: David Cockey <dcockey@tir.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:08:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Beginning of the end for LR??

Ray_Burton@notes.sabre.com wrote:

> News note:  While at my local news stand last night, I noticed on the
> cover
> of one of the automobile magazines (Road & Track, I believe), that BMW
> is
> bringing out their own Sport Ute.

The automotive press reports for the last several years have been that
the BMW will be closer to a car than a truck-based SUV. I also saw a
report today from a Swiss? publication in July that the both the Disco
and RR will be replaced in 2002 or so.

Regards,
David Cockey

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From: Todd Schlemmer <nullman@ptinet.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:15:45 -0700
Subject: Trivia (nee: BMW and the end of LR...)

At 09:04 PM 9/18/98 -0400, you wrote, in part:
>Minivan sales in the US have been flat for several years, but have not
>declined. The usual definition of a minivan includes having a "flat
>floor" with removable seats (for classification as a truck for CAFE
>purposes, etc.) and "short" hood. I'm not aware of any SUV's directly
>derived from minivans. SUV's are usually tall "station wagon" type
>vehicles with a folding second seat and 4WD/AWD available.

If you ever wondered how an Isuzu Trooper II differed from a regular ol'
Trooper:  The Trooper II was shipped to the USA without backseats to
circumvent duty/taxes/rigamaroll over what was legally considered a minivan
WITH the seat.  Buyer could then get backseats as an option.

Todd

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From: Scott Wilson <scott@scratchstudio.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:27:27 +0100
Subject: We're Pathetic... (where's the filler tubes?)

I am all of a sudden reminded of the crazy Lego Manics who's mailing
lists I monitor for entertainment. I was on the development team for 
the new Lego Mindstorms product, and I remember thinking how 
pathetic these guys were who know every lego kit and what came
in them from day one... and how they speculated about what Mindstorms
was going to be like... and how they bitched when it finally came
out... 

And then I realized that we are doing the same thing... 

So i"ll now not partake in this thread any further... I'm gonna go get 
some dinner and head out for a Bass or two... and instead of bitching 
about how I'll never own a real defender, think about how I'm gonna 
get my fuel tank filler hose to fit when my PO has cut off the metal 
filler tube to about 2" long.

Anyone have any spares?

-Scott

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From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:55:18 EDT
Subject: Re:  We're Pathetic... (where's the filler tubes?)

In a message dated 9/18/98 9:49:44 PM, you wrote:

<<I am all of a sudden reminded of the crazy Lego Manics who's mailing
lists I monitor for entertainment. >>

Now there's a bunch of *anoraks*. And I thought we were a bunch.   ;-)

--pat.

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From: David Scheidt <david@infocom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:00:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:  We're Pathetic... (where's the filler tubes?)

On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 SPYDERS@aol.com wrote:

:
:In a message dated 9/18/98 9:49:44 PM, you wrote:
:<<I am all of a sudden reminded of the crazy Lego Manics who's mailing
:lists I monitor for entertainment. >>
:
:Now there's a bunch of *anoraks*. And I thought we were a bunch.   ;-)

We are , Pat, don't worry.  The mud just makes the garish colors less
obvious.

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From: Shannon <cbcc@sbt.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:00:19 -0500
Subject: Koenig winch

Looking for a Koenig PTO winch for a SIII 109.
Shannon Gomes 319 352-1227

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From: "John Baker" <daddyo@loxinfo.co.th>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:07:52 +0700
Subject: Gas Tank sealant

I am having a leak in the gas tank for my 109 repaired. Before I reinstall
it I thought it might be a good idea to line it inside with some sealant. I
checked in the archives and saw that several different substances were
being recommended for this purpose, in addition to dedicated tank sealers.
I would use a tank sealant but have had trouble finding some here
(Thailand--it's available somewhere, but I don't have time to track it
down). Anyway, here is the question. I happen to have a can of POR15 paint.
They say it won't dissolve in solvents once it is dry, seals rust, etc.
etc. Could I use this, or would that be a no-no?

Regards,

John Baker
(Bangkok)

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From: Paul Nash <paul@frcs.alt.za>
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:40:07 +0200
Subject: Re: portal axles

>Once spent an afternoon watching the Australian Army recovering a Unimog
>from a boghole,

Many many years ago, I saw some SADF troops trying to snatch a Unimog with
a tank transporter.  The Unimog came free, but the axles stayed firmly
behind in the sand.  Not a pretty sight.

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From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:27:00 EDT
Subject: Re: A ?? for our friends down under

...Was kinda thinking about a Perentie myself...

Charles

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From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:28:07 EDT
Subject: Re: Anybody in/near LA??

Pete,

I'm about 20 miles south of downtown.

Charles

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