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From: JKwas61947@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:28:01 EDT
Subject: Looking for John Tackley - no LR content

John
    Check your Bigfoot e-mail account

  John

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From: eheite@dmv.com (Ned Heite)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:48:50 -0500
Subject: LRNA arrogance

Scott Wilson wrote

>As a web person, there is a point when you say... look... I want to
>do some cool stuff... this or that, and I'm gonna use this technology
>or that technology, and it may alienate those who wish to disable
>Java or not download Flash for whatever political reasons, but for
>me to accomplish what I want, I have to do that...

What incredible arrogance!

A commercial website is (or should be) a communications medium, not a
vehicle for some web designer to show how many totally irrelevant bells and
whistles he can stuff into some poor schnook's computer.

My time is valuable, and some of us pay by the minute for both web access
and telephone access. These excessively cute web pages are nothing but
theft of services by the insensitive, the arrogant, and the un-talented.

    _____
___(_____)                  Please be patient.
|Baby the\                  I am a recovering bureaucrat.
|1969 Land\_===__
   ___Rover   ___|o         Please be patient.
|_/ . \______/ .  ||        I still move slowly.
 __\_/________\_/________________________________________________
Ned Heite, Camden, DE  http://home.dmv.com/~eheite/index.html

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From: Scott Wilson <scott@scratchstudio.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:36:06 +0100
Subject: RE: LRNA arrogance

> A commercial website is (or should be) a communications medium, not a
> vehicle for some web designer to show how many totally irrelevant bells and
> whistles he can stuff into some poor schnook's computer.

I guess all I was trying to say is that the LRNA website is NOT a communications
medium... it's an advertisement...  bells and whistles suck...  But I went
back and looked at the site, and there really is nothing there that took
forever to download... (my connections are generally 33k) The pages 
that were informational (off road driving tips was abou the only place I 
could find) didn't have excessive graphics...  and the only bells and 
whistles that I ever remember seeing was some goofy java based
car picker... and that wasn't exactly irrelevant... 

You have to think about it from LRNA's perspective... they're not catering
to the information hungry - gotta find out how to rebuild my brake system,
fueld pump, etc... they are catering to the person who is looking to 
buy a new $40,000 toy car... They're probably at work browsing the
web on a harwired connection, and on a decent computer... 

And just because a page loads fast doesn't mean that it's any better...
Like the www.land-rover.team.net pages? sorry to offend anywone, 
but I still can't make heads or tales of it, and have mever found anything
in the "search engine", and that animated ad space at the bottom every
page makes me sick....

> My time is valuable, and some of us pay by the minute for both web access
> and telephone access. These excessively cute web pages are nothing but
> theft of services by the insensitive, the arrogant, and the un-talented.

Sorry to offend, but I was just trying to support LRNA's web page for what it
is... an advertisement... not criticize it for what it is not... I think we all 
get
along fine without any support from LRNA, and any effort they made to 
provide some online stuff like Rovers North, Bill Wood, or team.net would 
probably fail miserably because these are all community supported, not 
coorporate supported... 

now that I've pissed everyone off and made everyone think I'm a self 
righteous web snob....

-Scott

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From: "brian ..." <brdelab@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 06:03:23 PDT
Subject: The Brakes go Thump, Thump.

Hey everyone,

I have been on the list for a couple months now but have been reading 
the digests for the past couple of years.  I am located in the beautiful 
midwestern town of St. Louis, Missouri with a Series population of at 
least two-handfuls.

I have a late IIA with a strange noise. (hmm. haven't heard that one 
before.)  When I apply the brakes, I get this thump thump thump sound
which is coming from around the middle section of the vehicle, but since 
noises seem to resonate throughout the vehicle from one end to the other 
with the greatest of ease, it is only a guess.  I notice it more on slow 
braking (gliding towards a stoplight in third with medium pressure on 
the brake pedal hoping to double clutch into second as the light turns 
green, avoiding a complete stop at red.)

Also, what is the proper procedure for bleeding the brake system?

good day to all,

Brian
1971 IIA 88 "M"
St. Louis, MO

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From: Lodelane@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:39:05 EDT
Subject: Re: The Brakes go Thump, Thump.

Brian,

Just a guess, with the hot weather, and other wear, you may have a hub seal
leaking.  It is allowing 90 weight to leak into one of your brake drums.  You
are either getting oil on a shoe or the drum itself.  This causes the grab-
release, grab-release, that you feel as a thumping.  Look behind all four
wheels and see if there's any wetness.  Pull that wheel and drum and see if
there's 90 wt inside the drum.  If so, replace the seal and clean up the oil
contamination with something like Brakleen.

You didn't say how long you had your truck.  If this is something you've
noticed all along, you might have a drum out of round.  Also check the bolts
and U-joints on your drive shafts.

Larry Smith
Chester, VA

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From: "David R. Bobeck"<dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:12:59 -0500
Subject: Re: How do I troubleshoot Sqealing brakes on my Slll Lightwe

>> I have never heard another LR ever squeal-

then why are so many called PIG?

>-the British army is hardly gonna sellect a rapid deployment vehicle with a 
>propensity to cause explosive diarrhea each time the brakes are touched!!. 

Army kept theirs from squealing by keeping the drums full of mud.

>I would really appreciate any toubleshooting advice.

Build a bridge and get over it. Land Rover brakes do what THEY want.

later
daveb

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From: "David R. Bobeck"<dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:36:23 -0500
Subject: TW:Re: Back from Greek Peak 

>A special thanks to the gallant boys from Virginia who provided the 
>evening entertainment ;*)

so *that's* how your frame broke...

daveb

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From: "Stude, Herman L." <hermans@krts.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:59:26 -0500
Subject: Rust inhibiting coolant

Dear List;

I flushed the radiator from the SIII, first time since I bought it 3 yrs
ago, and found some nasty rust and stuff.  The worst came from flushing
the heater core.

My question is: Is there an antifreeze with a rust inhibitor that I
should be using?  And, am I hurting anything by just having water in
there until I find the best antifreeze mix? (will replace before the
first freeze down here in Texas).

Thanks,

Herman

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From: Dave Gaboury <dgaboury@GPS.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:06:07 -0500
Subject: RE: US Spec Defenders

> I noticed the back of the US Defenders in The Great Divide, 
> Colorado 1996,
> has round rear lights. Is this standard and what are they like?

> With the front lights, do the top set of orange indicator-style 
> be treated
> as side lights or indicator lights?

The back lights on my 1995 US Spec Defender 90 are round. They are somewhat
larger than the round lights found on the South African Defenders, which I
believe are the same as the European models. Both sides have a red
running/brake light and a yellow turn indicator. The left (driver's) side
also has a white reverse light. I think the 1997 US Spec Defenders went to
square lights (shame). There were no 1996 Defenders in the US. As a side
note, the rubber seals that are suppose to keep the rear bulbs dry aren't
the greatest. When I go in for a plunge I usually get a brake light full of
water.

As for the front, each side has two round orange lights. The upper one is
smaller and is a running light. The lower one is a turn indicator.

For those who don't get to enjoy the "cooler" climates, you'll be glad to
know that the ice breaking capabilities of the Defender are admirable. I've
cut through 8 cm. of ice on a frozen lake with no difficulty. The 1.5 meter
ice in mid winter is a problem, but you can drive on top of that of that
instead of through it.

Cheers,

Dave Gaboury
Fargo, North Dakota, USA
1995 D90

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From: "Chris Weinbeck, Office Logic, Inc." <cmw@tiac.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:23:51 -0400
Subject: Welder etc.

Hello everyone.

I had a great time at GP!!  That was me driving my GF's Toyota all weekend 
(and across the camping area).  Really nice to see people again, and meet 
others for the first time.

Gerry Elam asked about welders.

Practice is key no matter what you buy.  If you really want a good start 
take a night course at your local technical school at about $150 with 
almost unlimited materials it could be a great investment.

A "100 amp" MIG welder will weld everything steel on a Rover.  I would 
suggest Lincoln, but Miller, Hobart and even Century are just fine.  The 
"Weldpak 100" is a good machine, though not quite as inexpensive as it once 
was.  If you can swing the extra $100 or so you should buy the SP125 
-arguably the best portable 110v welder you can buy.

Find a course -it's very easy to use a MIG and very easy to make good 
looking, but poor welds.  If you don't take a course buy a book, practice 
and then TEST your welds destructively.  Hammer apart what you welded to  
gether.  Does the weld fail?  Grind away your welds.  Do you find funny 
patterns or pockets?  Just keep doing it.  Remember you're going to be 
driving this thing.

Chris
(not sure if my sig. is going to get added on and don't really care at the 
moment)

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From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:28:48 -0500
Subject: RE: Dual postings

>Does the Major have a problem ? I posted a couple of messages to the lro
>list and they also appeared in the cso list, I don't know if this is a
>problem with my software  or the majors. There seems to be a lot of
>duplicated messages ( all Teri Ann's for example )
>Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
> 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR

Bill, you better check your software. There is a little confusion with
majordomo's new features, but I dont see any double postings.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

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From: "Peter M. Kaskan" <pmk11@cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:36:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Rust inhibiting coolant

Hi Herman,

>My question is: Is there an antifreeze with a rust inhibitor that I
>should be using?

	I think that either the glycols inhibit rust, or most antifreezes
come with rust preventitives - In most cases, all you do is use the
antifreeze and H2O.

>And, am I hurting anything by just having water in
>there until I find the best antifreeze mix?

	I did this for a little while - the H2O rapidly turned rust
colored. I then drained and mixed the antifreeze and H2O in the radiator -
with my usual ignoring of directions. It is much harder to get the ratio
right this way because you have a fixed volume. Mix it in a bucket first,
then add it in.

	Anyway, I noticed that it was still becoming rust color. This may
be because I used Sierra brand antifreeze, which is safer, but probably
dosen't stop the rusting as well as the normal antifreezes. So I went to
NAPA and bought some antirust additive, something like 'NAPA - Formual 13'
- I can't remember the exact name.

	The result - ten months later my antifreeze looks like it just came
out of the bottle.

Cheers - Peter

Peter M. Kaskan				Uris Hall 231
Office / 607-255-3382			Dept. Of Psychology
Lab /  607-255-6396			Cornell University
e-mail / pmk11@cornell.edu
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/graduates/people/PeterM.Kaskan.htm
http://comp9.psych.cornell.edu/psychology/finlay/finlaylab.html

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From: TeriAnn Wakeman <twakeman@cruzers.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 98 07:42:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Back in 109 Brake system HELL (Again...)

Pressure bleed the system.  It was the only thing that worked for me when 
I had the stock single brake system on my 109.  It is a LOT easier on the 
109 dual brake system.

If you do not have the equipment, many service stations do and thay do 
not charge much for it.  Just make sure that they know the wheel 
cylinders are alloy and not to overtighten the bleed screws.

;>Hi All,
;> Well As I rebuild my 109 three door I knew this time would come as it
;>seems to every time I work on 109 brake system.   New wheel cylinders,
;>master cylinder, & brake lines all around Followed the manual directions
;>still no solid pedal.   I have bled the air out of the lines & bench
;>bled the master before installing.  the master is a CB type I am looking
;>for suggestions.
;>
;>Regards,
;>  Rob Davis_Chicago

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
twakeman@cruzers.com           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   

"How can life grant us the boon of living..unless we dare"
Amelia Earhart 1898-1937

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From: "bill.di" <bill.di@mci2000.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: A Little Brake Scraping is Okay

Scott and John wrote:

>>>>Only thing was that magically, there were no brakes anymore...
--poof-- nothing...

>> Yes, on those adjusters that you turned, if you go too far you start over
at zero.  No big deal, just turn 'em until the wheel doesn't turn, then back
them off until it *just* rubs.  No drag, just a little scraping.

Old timers can skip the following story from a nubie ...

Per my Haynes manual, what I did was " ... slacken the adjuster anti-clockwise 
just enough to enable the wheel to rotate freely."  With no other experience to 
go on other than these words, I did this until the wheel  rotated freely ... 
noscraping at all.  I think I was backing them off half-a-flat to a whole flat 
relative to the flats of the hex on the adjuster.  Then I proceeded try to wear 
out my master cylinder by bleeding the dickens out of the system to get rid of 
"air" (took two or three pumps of the brake to get that solid feel I wanted).  
Don't ask how many litres of Castrol DOT 4 brake fluid I went through.

Finally, after a little scare while pumping to stop, I returned to ground zero 
(the adjusters) but this time I happened to get out my Land Rover repair 
manual. 
 It says "Turn the adjuster until the brake shoe contacts the wheel drum."  
Then "Back-off two serrations on the adjuster."   So what are two serrations?  
I 
dimly recalled seeing little bumps on the cam surface of the adjusters the last 
time I had a wheel apart.   So I felt carefully for each bump as I backed off 
the adjuster.  Two serrations is a relatively small movement as compared to one 
half or a whole flat.  And I could still feel/hear a little scraping as John 
mentioned.

Boy did that ever make a difference!!!

Bill in Albuquerque

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From: TeriAnn Wakeman <twakeman@cruzers.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 98 07:59:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Land Rover Website

TeriAnn from the USA (Silicon Valley) wrote:

;> > A couple of years ago I would have envied me and my trips too.  I 
was 
;> > working 10 to 12 hours a day, was maxed out on my vacation time and 
;> > loosing what I should have been accruing.  My self definition and 
worth 
;> > was tied up in my job.

Mkrkus from Germany replied:

;>A very nice essay and so true !!!

To which TeriAnn replies:

I thought that Europeans had a better understanding of the balance of 
life than Americans.

It was my understanding that Europeans didn't volunteer unpaid hours do 
get a project completed on time when the managers purposely set it up 
with too little time and too few people.

Europeans have double or more the paid holidays and vacation time as 
their American counterparts.  

I had been told that Europeans in general were able to keep work hours 
separate from the rest of their life.  Could it be that you are sucked  
into the same company generated trap??

If this is true it is like saying that Xanadu does not exist somewhere.

TeriAnn Wakeman                       The Green Rover, rebuilt and
Santa Cruz, California                and maintained using parts from
twakeman@cruzers.com                  British Pacific 800-554-4133
http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman      

Walk in harmony with the earth and all her creatures and you will create 
beauty wherever you go.

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From: TeriAnn Wakeman <twakeman@cruzers.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 98 08:08:57 -0700
Subject: Re: The Brakes go Thump, Thump.

>I have a late IIA with a strange noise. (hmm. haven't heard that one 
;>before.)  When I apply the brakes, I get this thump thump thump sound
;>which is coming from around the middle section of the vehicle, but 
since 
;>noises seem to resonate throughout the vehicle from one end to the 
other 
;>with the greatest of ease, it is only a guess.  I notice it more on 
slow 
;>braking (gliding towards a stoplight in third with medium pressure on 
;>the brake pedal hoping to double clutch into second as the light turns 
;>green, avoiding a complete stop at red.)

SOunds to me like it is time to pull all the brake drums and look at 
what's going on inside.  You may have an oil leak, you may have badly 
worn or warped shoes, something may be loose or maybe a drum got warped.

Of course now maybe you have something loose.  Check your 'U' bolts for 
tightness with the car jacked up under the diff, and wiggle your prop 
shafts.  Just for giggles it probably wouldn't hurt to check you engine & 
transmission mounts.  Try jacking the engine & transmission up a little & 
see if the mount seperates.

;>Also, what is the proper procedure for bleeding the brake system?

Follow the work shop manual.  I recommend pressure bleeding.  Many 
service stations have a pressure bleeder if you do not.

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
twakeman@cruzers.com           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   

"How can life grant us the boon of living..unless we dare"
Amelia Earhart 1898-1937

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From: Slade@dreamlab.cc (Michael Slade)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 08:18:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: LRNA arrogance

Ned replied...

>A commercial website is (or should be) a communications medium, not a
>vehicle for some web designer to show how many totally irrelevant bells and
>whistles he can stuff into some poor schnook's computer.
>My time is valuable, and some of us pay by the minute for both web access
>and telephone access. These excessively cute web pages are nothing but
>theft of services by the insensitive, the arrogant, and the un-talented.

Finally!

someone who thinks like I do in regards to web sites!  *sigh*

You may want to look at mine Ned.  Apart from being rather image intensive,
I have purposefully made it clean, simple, and easy to navigate.

Take a peek at:

www.dreamlab.cc

BTW, there are some Land Rovers there.  :)

Later,

Michael Slade
Portland, Oregon
www.DreamLab.cc

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From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:49:27 -0400
Subject: Breakin' up isnt hard to do

"William L. Leacock" <wleacock@pipeline.com> wrote

>The short half shaft fails more frequently than the long one. Simply
>explained, if the axles  are  stressed so that the ends are twisted say 10
>degrees, the helix angle of the twist in the short shaft is more severe
>than the twist in the long shaft. So for equal loadings the short shaft is
>more highly stressed and it's fatigue life is shorter. 

Sounds eminently logical...however, I've never broken a short side.  It's
always been the long one.  Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

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From: Elwyn York <eyork@ey-eg.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:02:19 +0100
Subject: Re: How NOT to recharge a battery

At 20:22 16/08/98 EDT, you wrote:
>     Stupid me forgot that a MECHANICAL fuel pump would fill the cylinders,
>and then the exhaust, even without the engine actually running.  I guess I
>charged the battery enough in that 300 yards to produce juuust enough
spark. I
>blew the muffler clean open all along the seam, and my ears rang for about an
>hour for after.

Does this mean i cant jumpstart a landrover downhill that has a flat
battery? I have done before but will stop this method if it will blow the
muffler/silencer!

Cheers
Elwyn
LR S3 '72 (Dented) Lightweight. "Green Brick" [47 FL 06]

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From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:04:12 EDT
Subject: Re: Rust inhibiting coolant

Re Coolant,
Coolant also acts to inhibit the formation of rust, and reduce wear on water
pump seals, or at least that is what it is designed to do.  If you do as I,
and change it seldom, then it acts to be an indicator of water pump failure.
Either way works, one way gets you new cooling parts.

The onliest thing I change the coolant on is my wifes horse toting truck.
I don't want to visit the scene of THAT breakdown.
She's a veterinarian and I must sleep sometime.
The woman performs castrations in under 1.5 minutes.

Zack Arbios

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From: Elwyn York <eyork@ey-eg.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:03:09 +0100
Subject: Re: How NOT to recharge a battery

At 20:22 16/08/98 EDT, you wrote:
>     Stupid me forgot that a MECHANICAL fuel pump would fill the cylinders,
>and then the exhaust, even without the engine actually running.  I guess I
>charged the battery enough in that 300 yards to produce juuust enough
spark. I
>blew the muffler clean open all along the seam, and my ears rang for about an
>hour for after.

Does this mean i cant jumpstart a landrover downhill that has a flat
battery? I have done before but will stop this method if it will blow the
muffler/silencer!

Cheers
Elwyn
LR S3 '72 (Dented) Lightweight. "Green Brick" [47 FL 06]

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From: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:17:18 -0400
Subject: Re: How NOT to recharge a battery

Re: Not jump-starting a car by rolling:

I think not - I do it all the time myself (mostly for amusement...I have to
get a life...)

I think what this says is to:

1. Make sure the dead battery's putting out enough oomph to spark the
plugs.

2. if it doesn't kick over quickly, be careful about extended cranking.

I've blown out a muffler myself - after drenching my engine with water, I
kept cranking to get it to start. Once the silencer filled up with petrol
fumes, the engine finally dried out enough to fire....and the silencer was
history.

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From: "Tackley, John" <jtackley.dit@state.va.us>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:49:48 -0400
Subject: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

Fellow LRO List members, I would beg your indulgence to consider the
following, even at the risk that it may start a thread, regarding what I
hope will only be a constructive exercise.

Here's the scenario, (in limited detail to conserve space) in which 2
LRO List members, in distant states, agree to a parts transaction.
Sorry, it is a bit crypric, as I have no desire to reveal the identity
of the other list member (obvioulsy, I am #2).  I only wish that, those
of you who are interested, will carefully consider yourself in this same
situation, and send your comments back to the LRO List.  #1 will
hopefully read your collective comments, as will we all, who are
interested.  What conclusion(s) we may come to as a result remains to be
seen, I sincerely hope we can all learn something from this...about how
and how not to conduct business transactions (on this mail list).

A LRO List member (#1) posts to the List a message offering several
parts for sale, giving two phone numbers for responses.
A second list member (#2) calls, within 15 minutes of the post, and
speaks for some of the parts at the prices offered, in other words a
gentlemen's agreement is struck.
E-mails are exchanged the next day, providing #1 with #2's phone number
(and the number of his relative), and finalizing a schedule of payment
for and delivery of the parts.  
#2 mails a certified check to a relative (in close proximity to #1).
The agreed to plan is to that #1 will personally deliver the parts to
the relative, who will receive the parts and hand #1 the certified check
in payment.
#1 agrees to deliver said parts to #2's relative on the following Sunday
afternoon, but only after calling #2's relative on Saturday evening to
confirm that both, the check has arrived, and to arrange a time.

Sunday comes.  #2 calls his relative in the AM to verify that the check
has indeed arrived in time for the expected transaction later that
afternoon.  #2 learns that #1 has failed to call the relative on
Saturday evening, as agreed in the the exchanged e-mails, to verify
arrival of the check and to arrange a mutually convenient time on Sunday
for the delivery. 

So, #2 places a call to #1's home, only to get an answering machine.  #2
leaves a message asking #1 to please call the relative to advise of
delivery, so the relative doesn't have to wait around all day for #1.
#2 then calls back his relative to advise, and gives the relative #1's
phone number.  Later in the day the relative needs to go out, so he
calls #1 and leaves a second message on #1's machine to please call to
make arrangements for the delivery.  The relative does not receive any
return calls as a result of these two messages, nor does #2 for that
matter, though #1 has both #2's and the relatives phone numbers.

Meanwhile, Saturday AM, #2, (with the help of a friend), begins
dismantling his project vehicle in anticipation of eventually receiving
the parts as agreed to by #1.  (By Sunday evening the truck is very much
dismantled, with the many parts taking up space in a friend's garage.)

On Monday morning, #2 receives an e-mail message from #1.  It reads, in
part:

#2,

I'm afraid there's been a change, and I feel really bad about it.  It's
an
opportunity I cannot pass up, and it'll be doing a friend a favor.
    This morning a friend of mine who teaches auto mechanics at a local
community college contacted me to ask about using my Land Rover as a
semester
project.  I guess he's been having a hard time finding a simple, non
computer
car for the freshman class that is interesting enough to keep them from
losing
interest.  I told him that I already had a buyer for it, and he told me
that
he did not want to buy it from me, he just wanted to use it as a
teaching
tool, and that after the semester I would get it back fully assembled
and
driveable.  I would only have to pay for parts (most of which I already
have),
not including paint, body filler, misc fasteners, etc.
    This is just too good of an oppertunity to pass up.  I hope you can
understand where I'm coming from.  I've thought about it all day,
because I've
basically told you that it's yours, and I hate to not do what I said I
would.
But when somebody offers to turn for $3500 pile of parts into a $7-8k
vehicle
for free, it's just too hard to turn down.
    I don't blame you for being pissed off.  If you come back up this
way ...I'll buy you a beer (or a few cases) to try to make it
right with you.  I feel like a schmuck for things going like this.

signed, 
#1

As a result, #2, who relied on #1's offer, is left with a dismantled
vehicle taking space in a borrowed friend's garage, with no suitable
replacement parts (and a sizeable certified check made out to #1).  

What to do? ( if anything...beside to just "get over it"...)  I decided
to write this message request to the LRO List...instead of responding
directly to #1.

So, LRO List members, these are the pertinent facts in a transaction
gone bad between two List members.  

Please think about yourself as being in this same situation, both as #2,
and as #1.  
What would your feelings be, as both individuals?  What would you do, or
not do?  What can be done...?
After due consideration, please post your comments to the LRO List.  #1
will undoubtedly read them, as will I, as will you.  

Maybe we can collectively determine a more amenable and veracious way to
conduct future parts transactions, or at least, ourselves.  
(After comments are in I promise to post mine.)

TIA

John Tackley
Richmond, VA

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: JKwas61947@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:54:05 EDT
Subject: Re: Breakin' up isnt hard to do

     Regarding a short shaft breaking more often than a long shaft:

  I've had 2 parts cars, both with long side breaks.  My way of thinking goes
like this:
If the shafts break when the helix reaches 10 degrees, it makes sense to me
that the long side would break first, because the short side would be more
resistant to torsional forces than the long side.  Think of a long screw-
driver working on a really stuck screw.  It's easy to "twist" the screw-driver
along the shaft.  Work on the same screw with a stubby screw driver, and it's
much harder to "twist" the screw driver shaft.
  So, if the diff is putting the same amount of force into both axles, the
short side will resist going to the breaking point more easily than the long
side, leading to more broken long sides.  
  But what the hell do I know.  I'm a pharmacist, not an engineer.  It's hard
to argue with Bill L's spate of broken short sides...

John Kwasnik
Sherburne NY

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Clayton Kirkwood" <kirkwood@garlic.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:10:16 -0700
Subject: RE: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

Although I understand #1's desire to go forth with good fortune, #1
apparently (not withstanding apologies and feeling like a SMUCK) has little
regard for gentlemen's agreements et al. I see several possibilities (not
knowing the value of the parts): #1 buys said new parts and sends them to #2
(or keeps the new parts and sends the agreed to used parts (this can be
afforded given that the original value of said car is ~$3500 and will be
$7000), or #1 make other agreeable reparation to #2.

In situations like this, #1 should have contacted #2 as soon as possible to
come to an amenable agreement. This could at least possibly averted the
dismantling in friend's garage. Tsk, Tsk #1.

Clayton

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Jason B. Carroll" <carrollj@up.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:12:07 -0000
Subject: Sound Insulation

I was wondering what people are using for sound insulation in their 
Series vehicle?? In our 1969 we have nothing (bare metal nothing), and on 
the highway with that V8 it can get a little noisy (mostly from the 
transfer case). Any ideas? Thanks,

--Jason

1969 Land Rover Series IIa V8

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:17:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR

OK, so the deal fell apart. You learned that you should not begin a 
repair job until you have parts in hand. You'd probably be more 
philosophical about this issue if you hadn't set yourself up for 
inconvenience.
Seeing that no money actually changed hands, I don't see a problem, 'cept 
that you have to re-source the parts you thought you had coming, and 
you're hopping mad at Mr. Flaky, who you are probably hoping to "run 
into" at some future Rover rally.
This is, unfortunatly, part of the charm of owning and restoring old 
vehicles. 

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:19:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Sound Insulation

Ear plugs. Cheap and easy to install.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:14:55 EDT
Subject: Re: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

In a message dated 8/17/98 12:50:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jtackley.dit@state.va.us writes:

<< As a result, #2, who relied on #1's offer, is left with a dismantled
 vehicle taking space in a borrowed friend's garage, with no suitable
 replacement parts (and a sizeable certified check made out to #1).  
 
 What to do? ( if anything...beside to just "get over it"...)  I decided
 to write this message request to the LRO List...instead of responding
 directly to #1. >>

Hi John,

This kind of thing happens all the time in the world of small business.  There
is little else to do about it other than small claims court (doesn't seem
worth the effort in this case).  You are completely at the mercy of the other
guy's level of integrity.  Other than written contract and attorney at hand,
no protocol for parts transactions can really prevent this sort of thing.

An example:
My neighbor's business consists of attending auctions and private sales,
purchasing heavy duty equipment (front end loaders, bulldozers, backhoes,
etc.), fixing them up and reselling them.  He is a 2 man operation.  He has 2
lawyers on retainer to deal with just this sort of problem (which he
encounters regularly).  I suspect this is simply one of the risks involved in
buying used stuff from private parties.

Caveat Emptor!

Nate

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: JKwas61947@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:15:59 EDT
Subject: Re: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

    My name is John Kwasnik, I am a member of this list, and I am person
number one in the LRO transaction senario.  This will be my only post on this
subject.

    I feel really bad that this happened, but ask, what would you do?  This is
a problem when a transaction takes place over long distances and things
change.  As it is, I e-mailed John T. at the address he gave me last Thurs or
Friday letting him know that I would no longer be selling my frame.  I got
home Sunday night from a weekend away, and there were 2 messages from John's
brother left Sunday wanting to know when I was going to deliver the frame.
    By this time, I no longer had John's tele# (I canned it, not thinking I'd
need it).  So today I left a message on this list for him to contact me so I
could explane things.
   As I said before, I feel badly about this.  I am a fair person (ask one of
the people that came to my house last spring to help themselves to the parts-
car free for all).  However, when presented with the opportunity that I have
been given, only a fool would turn it down.
   My appologies go out to John Tackley, his brother, and to anyone else who
thinks what I did is inexcusable.  If it happened to me I'd be very
disappointed, probably pissed off, too.
   
John Kwasnik
Sherburne NY

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:14:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Sound Insulation

Lots of things can be used for sound insulation - depends on what your
budget is.

I ended up using synthetic felt auto carpet underlayment glued to the
seatbox and the metal areas, with carpet applied over it. Cut the noise
considerably and helped the cab stay warmer in the winter (definitely a
consideration in new England...).

Some others have used Dynamat (a 3M product), while others still have used
adhesive metal honeycomb and products like it.

                    ajr

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:44 -0500
Subject: RE: How NOT to recharge a battery

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that if you have one car with a
good battery and alternator, then you might be better off with a
set of jumper cables, and let the rover charge the battery
while it's just idling? I know Ive been known to make things a lot
harder than they should be, but this seems obvious....
Is there some reason to not do this?

But then again, if we wnated things to be easy, we wouldn't
own land rovers...

 -Scott  

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:28:47 -0400
Subject: #1's response

It is too bad that you have destroyed your credibility and have no doubt 
flogged any chances of people doing business with you in the future, at 
least as far as this list is concerned. We have no sympathy for you.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Benjamin Smith <bens@psasolar.colltech.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:24:06 -0500
Subject: Re: How fast should I go (was overdrive question) 

I origninally wrote:
  
> My Series III currently has 32" tyres.  Without the OD I have a
> self imposed top speed of about 62 mph.  

C. Marin Faure responded:

> The redline of the 2.25 petrol engine is 4,250 rpm.  If you drive with
> the engine turning consistently at 4,000 rpm, you are only 250 rpm away
> from its maximum rpm.  

TerriAnn Wakeman wrote:

> I drive by paying attention to my tach.  Over the years I have noticed 
> that my 2-1/4L petrol engine seems to feel smoothest and "happy" between 
> about 3000 and 3400 RPM.  

	In another post TerriAnn wrote that 62mph equals 3500 RPM for a
Series LR in 4th gear, no O/D with 265/75/R16 BF Goodrich M/T tyres
which has about an 31.5" diameter.  (both of us are running the exact
same tyre).

	I find this quite interesting.  My self imposed upper limit where
to me the sound of the engine is enough for me not to want to push it
any more is just 100 RPM higher than what TerriAnn mentions that she
has measured to the engine to run best in her opinion.   Interesting how
the ear and the tach agree so closely.

	In other news, the lack of the OD and impending trips has cause me
to break down and order my 3rd Overdrive last week.  I know that if I kept
on towing Dora (SIII) behind the the Black Watch (Disco), any more, Dora would
get pissed and do something nasty to me in some extremely remote location.
The OD should arrive today or tomorrow.  Hopefully it will last 75,000 miles 
like the first one did.
 
Ben
--
Benjamin Smith                   "If I were running such a contest, I would
Collective Technologies          specifically eliminate any entries from Ben 
    (a pencom company)           involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere. 
Land-  : '72 Series III 88"      He'd drive it up the Amazon Basin for a half
 -Rover: '94 Discovery 5-Spd     can of Jolt and a stale cookie." --K. Archie

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:24 -0500
Subject: RE: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal

This your first web type transaction? Well... Most go better than that,   
but
I've had my share of sour deals... It's gonna happen unfortunately, and
even more unfortunately within groups like this...

What he did is definately pretty shitty... but... I can tell you never to   

count on something from a complete stranger... and involve as few
friends as possible in these transactions... if you had sent him the
money directly, and after receiving it, he still did the same... Then
he owes you more than a couple of pints of beer. At that point, you
are getting into mail fraud territory.

So thanks for not slamming anyone on the list... that's the last
thing you should do, but if he ever posts things for sale again,
go ahead and let us all know about it, and give him the chance
to defend himself...

I had one deal where someone got slammed when I was buying
something from him (this was my first net transaction, btw) and
he offered to send me everything, and after I got it and decided
that I actually wanted it and it was what he said, then I could
send him the money... that worked out really well...

Scott  

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: JKwas61947@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:45:26 EDT
Subject: Re: How NOT to recharge a battery

In a message dated 98-08-17 13:22:41 EDT, you write:

<< I know Ive been known to make things a lot
 harder than they should be, but this seems obvious....
 Is there some reason to not do this? >>

The charging system on the Sprite doesn't work, so if I jumped it, it would
not charge itself up.

John

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Michael Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 10:45:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: #1's response

Mr Flako writes:
 
    My name is John Kwasnik, I am a member of this list, and I am person
number one in the LRO transaction senario.  This will be my only post on this
subject.
***********
Well, I'll give points for brass balls here, but that's all you gets points for!
When you agree to something as large as selling a frame, YOU DO IT! When the 
other
guy came and offered to rebuild the frame you say "Thanks, but I've already sold
it!"
************
    I feel really bad that this happened, but ask, what would you do?  This is
a problem when a transaction takes place over long distances and things
change.  As it is, I e-mailed John T. at the address he gave me last Thurs or
Friday letting him know that I would no longer be selling my frame.  I got
home Sunday night from a weekend away, and there were 2 messages from John's
brother left Sunday wanting to know when I was going to deliver the frame.
    By this time, I no longer had John's tele# (I canned it, not thinking I'd
need it).  So today I left a message on this list for him to contact me so I
could explane things.
   As I said before, I feel badly about this.
****************
Oh I'll bet! We don't have many problems like this on this list, because with
notable exceptions, YOU BEING A GLARING ONE, we're all above board here. If you
agree to sell something to someone, YOU DO IT! You don't reneg because a better
offer comes along. What you did was chickensh*t and you know it! 
*************

  I am a fair person(ask one of the people that came to my house blah blah blah
*************
How the hell can you make this statement!?
***********

However, when presented with the opportunity that I have
been given, only a fool would turn it down.
***********
No actually, you ARE the fool for taking the other deal. An honest, fair person
as you claimed to be WOULD have turned it down.
**********

   My appologies go out to John Tackley, his brother, and to anyone else who
thinks what I did is inexcusable.
**********
A bit late for that old man, don't you think? Hope you never post here again, 
particularly
to sell something. Our memory is long and our reach is far. As Bill noted, "you 
have
destroyed your credibility and have no doubt flogged any chances of people 
doing business
with you in the future. We have no sympathy for you.

 
You're a loser, change your name to John Beatnik.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Benjamin Smith <bens@psasolar.colltech.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:48:34 -0500
Subject: Re: LRNA 

In message <bulk.22692.19980816110854@Land-Rover.Team.Net>you write:
  
> That's the LRNA page, and you'd better have a very up-to-date browser,
> because it is full of unnecessary gimmicks, gimcranks, frames and pointless
> virtuosities. In short, it is an amateurish monstrosity created by someone
> who obviously hasn't the first clue about the niceties of communication.

	Actually LRNA went with a "professional" group to design their
web pages.  IMO many of these group add of of this crap because they can
and have no concept of the 28.8 dialup.  (I had a huge fight with one when
I showed him that the front page for a company took 7 seconds to load
when on the same physcial segment and 10 minutes from home, and if one
broswed with images off, you got nothing, and...I digress).  LRNA pays the
money for the site and doesn't realize the annoyance.  Once upon a time I
bitched at the and they made the "lite" LRNA web site.

> 1. To get into the owner's section, you had better have a seventeen-digit
> VIN from a new vehicle. 

	Everyone should call LRNA and bitch about this.  Maybe if enough
of us call they will do something.   But in the meantime, if you want to get
in, got to the Defender registry section of the LR FAQ and grab a VIN to 
use.  Some 300 or so are listed.

http://www.off-road.com/LR_FAQ/Defender/D110.db.html
http://www.off-road.com/LR_FAQ/Defender/D90ST.db.html
http://www.off-road.com/LR_FAQ/Defender/D90SW.db.html
http://www.off-road.com/LR_FAQ/Defender/D90auto.db.html
http://www.off-road.com/LR_FAQ/Defender/D90willow.db.html

> 2. If you should have a complaint (like the stupid graphics), there is no
> readily-apparent feedback or email area.

Call LRNA: (301) 731-9040 

> 3. With all the extraneous visual garbage, it takes forever to load even
> the simplest pages. Maybe they have high-speed lines at Lanham, 

	I doubt it, from their DNS records it would indicate that they only
have a few boxes.   Their pages do load quite nicely over a T3 though, but
what < 1% of the next population has access to that.  ;-)

Ben

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Joseph Broach <broach@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:49:56 -0400
Subject: Re: 16x5" wheel question, etc

I have a few wheel and tyre ?'s for the experts today...

1) What size tires will fit on the old narrow 16x5" 88 rims w/o trouble? I
was thinking something like a 215/85 w/ tubes of course.

2) I am having trouble locating a 4th rim. I do, however, have 1 good
16x5.5" rim off of an old 109 (PN#279309). What if I used the wider rims in
back where clearance isn't a problem and the skinny rims up front? All with
the same tires. Can anyone think of a problem w/ doing this?

Thanks,
joseph

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Elwyn York <eyork@ey-eg.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:51:37 +0100
Subject: Re: How NOT to recharge a battery

At 20:22 16/08/98 EDT, you wrote:
>     Stupid me forgot that a MECHANICAL fuel pump would fill the cylinders,
>and then the exhaust, even without the engine actually running.  I guess I
>charged the battery enough in that 300 yards to produce juuust enough
spark. I
>blew the muffler clean open all along the seam, and my ears rang for about an
>hour for after.

Does this mean i cant jumpstart a landrover downhill that has a flat
battery? I have done before but will stop this method if it will blow the
muffler/silencer!

Cheers
Elwyn
LR S3 '72 (Dented) Lightweight. "Green Brick" [47 FL 06]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Joseph Broach <broach@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:57:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Help w/ wiper wiring

I'm trying to get the kinks out of my new wiring harness and am having
trouble with the wiper switch wiring. The motor is the original IIa neg
earth (drives both wipers). The switch, though, is from a serIII I believe
(knurled knob that pushes for washer). It has four numbered connectors in a
circle and then one extra sticking out from the middle. I assume this extra
connector is for a windscreen washer. The wiper motor has five leads: black
(to ground), green (power), brown/lt green, red/lt green, and blue/lt
green. I tried wiring it as per SerIII diagram but only get one speed and
the wipers don't park. If anyone could take a look at theirs I'd appreciate
it.

Thanks,
joseph

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:58:24 EDT
Subject: Re: #1's response

When situations like this happen to me, I decide simply that, from that point
forward, IF I do any more dealings with the person involved, it'll be in
person, parts on hand, cash in hand ONLY - if I cannot ensure any of the
above, then no deal. England is only a fax/credit card number away, and if I
need the part in a hurry, then that's what FedEx is for.

Charles

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Russ Wilson <rwwilson@mho.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR

I vote for a "nerf sword" fight at the next national Rally.....  We will of
course need your heights/weights so that the odds makers can set the odds
for the ensuing flood of wagering.  It won't solve anything but it should
be entertaining.

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong...."
				Dennis Miller

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Leger Marc-Andre <ma.leger@wefa.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:10:07 -0400
Subject: RE: LRNA arrogance

Cool website ! Love the land Rover pictures.

http://www.dreamlab.cc/

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Russ Wilson <rwwilson@mho.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:05:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: #1's response

>It is too bad that you have destroyed your credibility and have no doubt
>flogged any chances of people doing business with you in the future, at
>least as far as this list is concerned. We have no sympathy for you.
Bill, Don't beat around the bush.  Tell us how you really feel.

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong...."
				Dennis Miller

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Ray Burton" <Ray_Burton@usairways.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:06:57 -0400

At Greek Peak I met Dermot Harvey, another grey market owner.  Does anyone
know his e-mail address?

Thanks in advance

Ray Burton

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Russ Wilson <rwwilson@mho.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:17:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Buying/selling

I just wanted to say that I've been on both ends of the buying/selling long
distance, as I'm sure alot of other folks on this list have.  There are a
few things you can do to CYA.  First is use a U.S. Postal Service Money
Order.  The penalties for fraud when cashing one of these tend to be on the
severe side.  The second thing is to ask others  on the list if they know
the other person you are dealing with.  This applies to you either as a
buyer or seller.  I just sent $6000.00 accross the country to a person I've
never met to purchase a vehicle I've never seen. Go ahead say it...I know
I'm nuts.  That said, this was not done before alot of checking around as
to the credibility of the person that I was dealing with.  I couldn't find
a single person to say anything bad about the guy so I went ahead with the
deal.  I consider myself lucky in that as I said I've been both buyer and
seller and have dealt with nothing but very honest straight forward folks.
I sold a winch to a person for an agreed upon price even though before
shipping it off to him I had offers for far more money.  What would have
come of my reputation in the LR community if I had gone bad on an agreed
upon deal?  I would rather keep my word and be able to look people in the
eye when I see them at the next rally.  I hope that people will take their
personal reputations in to account before doing anything that will get
their name flogged and drug through the mud infront of a few thousand folks
on this list.

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong...."
				Dennis Miller

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: JKwas61947@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:18:55 EDT
Subject: Re: #1's response

    A nerf sword fight at the next Rally sounds like fun, folks.  I'm 6'3",
245lbs, for the handicappers out there...

John Beatnik

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: jory bell <jory@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:19:10 -0700
Subject: RE: LRNA

>Sorry to bring these web design issues to the lro list, but I must
>support LRNA's site... I do web backend work, and people said
>all the same stuff about Lego when they made some changes to their
>site...  And I know that normally only the criticism get made
>and positive notes are hardly ever uttered.
>As a web person, there is a point when you say... look... I want to
>do some cool stuff... this or that, and I'm gonna use this technology
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 15 lines)]
>are all free, and 56k modems are cheap... probably cheaper than
>the hi-lift jack and the two jackstands I bought today. =:)

there is also no reason for a web designer not to implement a site which
supports both the most current hippest plugins and such, as well as less up
to date users/hardware/software. i am always amazed when some lazy web
weenie (and i use that as a term of endearment ;) refuses to use alt tegs
for images, or create at least a minimal noframes version of the site.

::jory

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Russ Wilson <rwwilson@mho.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: #1's response

>    A nerf sword fight at the next Rally sounds like fun, folks.  I'm 6'3",
>245lbs, for the handicappers out there...
>John Beatnik

I think you may have misunderstood. YOU get a nerf sword the other poor guy
gets a REAL sword.  That might just even things out.

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong...."
				Dennis Miller

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From: "Clayton Kirkwood" <kirkwood@garlic.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:35:16 -0700
Subject: RE: #1's response

Pretty funny, not. Just make sure that you bring parts and plan to leave
them there free of charge, ie you don't get to change your mind.

Clayton

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From: "Robert A. Virzi" <rvirzi@gte.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:35:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Buying/selling

>  I hope that people will take their
>personal reputations in to account before doing anything that will get
>their name flogged and drug through the mud infront of a few thousand folks
>on this list.

Actually, I rather doubt that having 'mud' spattered on oneself has the
same derogatory meaning among land rover owners that it might among other
groups.
;-)		-Bob

GTE Labs, MS-38            rvirzi@gte.com         voice: +1.781.466.2881
40 Sylvan Rd                                        fax: +1.781.466.4035
Waltham, MA, USA  02454

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Neil Brownlee" <metal_thrasher@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:55:19 +0100
Subject: Help? Lost soul

Help!?

I seem to recall someone said there was a UK version of this list? Where? I
have had so much help from this list it is unreal, but I suspect if there is
a more UK based list I might meet some fellow enthusiasts!

Neil

1978 Series III 109" Ex-MOD Soft top
1998 Ford Explorer - 'What Boy Racer? Where? I Can't see him!?' - NIB 4318
1998 Daewoo Lanos - 'Well, the wife has to take the kids to nursery in
something!'

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Hastelow, Simon - DM/NT" <simon.hastelow@dailymail.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 98 20:42:00 PDT
Subject: Help? Lost soul

Help!?

I seem to recall someone said there was a UK version of this list? Where? I
have had so much help from this list it is unreal, but I suspect if there is
a more UK based list I might meet some fellow enthusiasts!

Neil

1978 Series III 109" Ex-MOD Soft top
1998 Ford Explorer - 'What Boy Racer? Where? I Can't see him!?' - NIB 4318
1998 Daewoo Lanos - 'Well, the wife has to take the kids to nursery in
something!'

HELLO NEIL

go through the same subscription proces but in the message type

subscribe uk-lro

simon wh
97 discovery tdi

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From: Adrian Redmond <121407237875@tele.dk>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:28:34 +0200
Subject: Re: #1's response

And there I was, taking a sureptitious peak at the list after a week's
absence - still not wild about rovering at the moment but my week of
upgrading our server to Windows98 has begun to put things in
perspective  - and what do I find - you are all bickering.

OK someone screwed someone else - or at leats wasn't playing cricket -
but I can't resist saying how it seems that some of us get a little too
macho in our tone of writing when we are the the same-arms-length of a
modem.

If someone promised to sell something to someone else, and then backed
out when he got a better offer - I think that's immoral, not playing
straight, and definately not kosher - but as to calling the accused a
fool and a loser - that's beyond the pale for me.

I was beginning to mis everyone's company, but this tone of writing
makes me want to stay off line for a week or two more - sorry.

Yours disappointedly,

Adrian Redmond

CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 76 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)	channel6denmark@hotmail.com

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From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:25:06 -0500
Subject: RE: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

What I can tell you is a very rough legal aproach to the matter.
A buy-sell contract is perfected when the parties agree in terms of the
object of the contract and it's price. When the agreement is reached, the
contract is in every respect enforceable. When you say "I sell this for a
buck" and the other party says "OK, I buy it" the buisness is already
history. The trade of the goods is another matter, but property over the
goods has already changed.
There is no turn back, unless both parties agree on it. If one fails to
perfom, the other one has every right to be paid for the damages incurred as
a consequense.
Your #2 should not only be ashamed, but offer you some kind of compensation.
His truck had already been sold, and he took it back without your consent,
it's your right to get at least some kind of compensation.
I took your side.
:-)

Lic. LUIS MANUEL "I only take winner cases!" GUTIERREZ
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

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From: andy Smith <andy@bobstar.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:11:53 +0100
Subject: Re: Back in 109 Brake system HELL (Again...)

Throw the CB type away now, use the Cv type it is a much better unit.
When we rebuilt the 1965 2a it had a CB type of a LWB. It was replaced
with a brand new Cb type but the brakes would never bleed properly so 
we were told to ditch the Cb and use the CV. The CV bled alot easier and
is a much better  unit.

best Cheers-- 
Andy Smith
1965 Ser2a V8 SWB CCV/Road
1971 Ser2a 2.25P SWB Road
Tamworth Staffordshire.

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From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:39:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Breakin' up isnt hard to do

A. P. "Sandy" Grice wrote:

> So for equal loadings the short shaft is
> >more highly stressed and it's fatigue life is shorter.
> Sounds eminently logical...however, I've never broken a short side.  It's
> always been the long one.

I'm no engineer but isn't the long side, by virtue of its length capable of
being twisted more
and hence reaching a tortional failure point sooner than the short one?...
basically a torque issue?

Jeremy

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From: Adrian Redmond <121407237875@tele.dk>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:43:06 +0200
Subject: Re: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

But re. my previous whining about the tone of conversation regarding a
lack of gentlemanly honour here...

At least i would add that Mr. Tackley has offered a fine example for us
all to follow when trying to ask the list for advice and moral support
on a delicate issue. John's original description of the problem is about
as objective and fair as one could expect of an involved party, for
example he does not paint #2 as an uncaring rogue - he even cites #2's
letter of apology and offer to "try and make things right".

I have seen many gripe-postings over the past two years on this list,
but this one was the fairest, most gentlemanly of all - just a pity that
other subscribers, in their lust for blood and casting their
two-pennyworth into the debate, did not follow John's honourable example
of objectivity. If the aggreived party can behave like that, why not the
audience?

Cheers

Adrian Redmond

CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 76 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)	channel6denmark@hotmail.com

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "David R. Bobeck"<dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:43:31 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: 16x5" wheel question, etc 

>I have a few wheel and tyre ?'s for the experts today...

I used to be a pert...

>1) What size tires will fit on the old narrow 16x5" 88 rims w/o trouble? I 
>was thinking something like a 215/85 w/ tubes of course.

235/85/16's WILL fit. I've been running them for over a year. If I had to do it 
again I would've fit tubes. btw I have run them at 20 psi off road with no bead 
failures.

later
daveb

the woods are lovely, dark and deep, many gas stations before I sleep...

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From: Michael Carradine <mc@landrover.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:04:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Back in __ Brake system HELL (Again...)

At 09:11 PM 8/17/98 +0100, Andy Smith wrote:
>Throw the CB type away now, use the Cv type it is a much better unit.
>When we rebuilt the 1965 2a it had a CB type of a LWB. It was replaced
>with a brand new Cb type but the brakes would never bleed properly so 
>we were told to ditch the Cb and use the CV. The CV bled alot easier and
>is a much better  unit.

 I'm replacing a 3 hole bracket CB type master brake cylinder on a 80"
 Series I with a 2 hole CV type.  The plunger diameter seems to be the
 same, so I expect no difference in the brake pedal action.  The old
 CB type was mounted sideways at an angle, ie approx 30 degrees from
 vertical.  By installing the new CV type at the same angle, will this
 be problem bleeding the unit?

 Also, the CV type has smaller diameter fittings.  What are people
 doing to adapt their lines (short of replacing the entire brake system
 as I am)?

-Michael

 '50 80", '72 88", '89 RR

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From: "Wilson, Scott" <wilsons@msmail.vislab.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:45 -0500
Subject: RE: Breakin' up isnt hard to do

> I'm no engineer but isn't the long side, by virtue of its length   
capable of
> being twisted more
> and hence reaching a tortional failure point sooner than the short   
one?...
> basically a torque issue?

Y'all are thinking way too hard about this... I mean, where was any   
measurable
maufacturing consistency brought into the equation? I think a statistical
measure was a good idea, but a little hard to do considering there's   
probably
a lot more at issue here than long vs short... driving habits, terrain,   
frequency
of off-roading, etc...

 -Scott Wilson
 (just trying to piss more people off =:)

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From: Marijn van der Himst <marijn@multiweb.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 23:16:33 +0200
Subject: I'm gone

 Sorry folks, it's too much,
 guess I'll be on the UK-list.
 
 Marijn
 SIII 109' FFR

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From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:16:45 -0500
Subject: RE: I'm gone

> Sorry folks, it's too much,
> guess I'll be on the UK-list.
> Marijn
> SIII 109' FFR

Too much what?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

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From: "Jeffrey Jackson" <jcjcj88@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:08:02 -0400
Subject: Manifold Mouse

Here's one that I didn't bother to check for on the FAQ list before asking
your advice:

A semi-fresh 2.25 gas engine which I am installing spent a few months lying
on it's side in a field in Maine.  The exhaust and intake manifolds were in
place, but the exhaust pipe had been cut, rather than unbolted, about 6"
below the manifold.

Enter the mouse, which finds a perfectly-sized hidey hole safe from all
predators less land rover enthusiasts.  Mouse makes home in exhaust pipe,
and, since mice are not known as the Martha Stewarts of Rodentia, gradually
fills his new home with shell husks, dried grass, and his own turds, all of
which he vigorously pushes back into the hidden recesses of his house.

I discovered this mess today when I pulled the manifolds.  The exhaust ports
for cylinders 2 and 3 were fairly well crammed with this hantavirus stew.
The other exhaust ports were clean.   I blew it the stuff out of the two
ports with compressed air.

The Question:  I had not planned to pull the head.  Should I?  Is there a
chance of more debris further along into the cylinder, or are the tolerances
so tight as to make this unlikely?   I've not pulled a cylinder head before,
so I'd like to avoid it if possible, since I'm scared of new things and all.

Thanks,

Jeff Jackson
73 SIII 88

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:13:25 EDT
Subject: Re: Help? Lost soul

In a message dated 17/08/98 20:05:29 BST, you write:

<< I seem to recall someone said there was a UK version of this list? Where? I
 have had so much help from this list it is unreal, but I suspect if there is
 a more UK based list I might meet some fellow enthusiasts!
  >>
Neil,
send subscribe uk-lro to Majordomo and you're with us brother!!
but leave the Daywhoo at home...

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

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From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:13:23 EDT
Subject: Re: Land Rover Website

In a message dated 17/08/98 15:59:07 BST, you write:

<<  had been told that Europeans in general were able to keep work hours 
 separate from the rest of their life.  Could it be that you are sucked  
 into the same company generated trap??
 
 If this is true it is like saying that Xanadu does not exist somewhere.
  >>
TeriAnn, 
not to destroy all your preconceptions but I am the way I am because I worked
12-14 hours a day and weekends.......
I know other Europeans who do as much - in fact I meet a lot of them in my MI
rehab class each week...:-)>

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:13:07 EDT
Subject: Re: LRNA arrogance

In a message dated 17/08/98 12:52:35 BST, you write:

<< My time is valuable, and some of us pay by the minute for both web access
 and telephone access. These excessively cute web pages are nothing but
 theft of services by the insensitive, the arrogant, and the un-talented.
  >>

here, here!!

I'm with you on that. When will these pratts realise that we have come to look
at a particular website for information, not to look at pretty graphics??

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Michael Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:20:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Manifold Mouse

 I discovered this mess today when I pulled the manifolds.  The exhaust ports
 for cylinders 2 and 3 were fairly well crammed with this hantavirus stew.
 The other exhaust ports were clean.   I blew it the stuff out of the two
 ports with compressed air.
 
 The Question:  I had not planned to pull the head.  Should I?  Is there a
 chance of more debris further along into the cylinder, or are the tolerances
 so tight as to make this unlikely?   I've not pulled a cylinder head before,
 so I'd like to avoid it if possible, since I'm scared of new things and all.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Jeff Jackson

Jeff,

  Cool! OK, rather than pull the head if thats too intimidating, try this.
First off, pull the valve cover, and check to see if either of the exhuast
valves are open. If both are closed, then nothing got past them into the cyls
and you're OK. If one is open, (both can't be open), pull the spark plug for the
open cyl, and blow compressed air in through the spark plug hole. This will 
swirl
the mousy turds around and up/out the open valve. Let us all know.

Rgds
Mike 
101FC

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From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:38:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

Tough Breaks for both of you.  As with many disputes of this nature, nobody is
going to be really happy with the outcome.  You who didn't get the parts you
anticipated, and now has a portion of the original problem ( you want new
parts in your truck and don't have em.  He who now has to wait for a bunch of
students (by definition, they don't know what they are doing.) to finish
botching his re-build.  You aren't too much the worse for wear, you had to
dismantle to put in the supposed good parts and now you only have to do the
parts getting exercise let's hope for cheaper than before.  The real problem
for you is the logistics and the crushing loss of the glowing anticipation of
seeing the "brand new" shiny parts which were probably covered in the same
crap as your old parts.

I do have sympathy for you but you will be happier if you just feel some
sympathy for your erstwhile vendor who will be crying some night stuck on a
deserted road while the circlip which wasn't installed correctly inside his
gearbox or diff chews it way out the side of the case with assorted gears and
shafts.  If you wish you can imagine some shrapnel where it would do the most
good.  The proximity of sensitive parts is pretty easy for this.

Zack Arbios

More Rovers than my wife would wish and been there done that,
got the T-shirt, didn't get the parts.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:49:31 EDT
Subject: Re: How NOT to recharge a battery

Brute Force and Massive Ignorance, a concept I think codified by Robt
Heinlein.  In this case, the ignorance was replaced in the face of a
scientific exercise with unintended consequences.  Hypothesis, Will the car
start? Experiment, diving over the precipice, gathering speed, and KABLOW
(emphasis on the OW auditorilly speaking).  New Hypothesis, Perhaps the energy
latent in an exhaust system full  of a gas air mix can exceed the mechanical
limits of the perimeter of the silencer.  Experiment, see above, hypothesis
appears to be correct.  New hypothesis, Perhaps I don't want to do that again,
Experiment, Call R.N. get price for exploded parts, Hypothesis again correct.
Science again triumphs!  Technology is no place for Wimps.

My hat is off to all of you.

Zack Arbios

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:57:12 EDT
Subject: Re: How NOT to recharge a battery

So, you were going to drive it to the repair shop?

Perhaps what we who may someday be lazy buggers did with Daniel5's diesel
(jacaranda) might be of some use.  Swap the good battery from the charging car
to the not charging car, then jump the charging car from the bad sprite.  a
few minutes at idle whould get the bad sprite up to full charge and my back
doesn't hurt for days and days from pushing anything.

Or something like that.  Actually Daniels didn't start (on the compression run
downhill) although he had plenty of battery so we jumped it later.

Zack Arbios

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From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:59:49 EDT
Subject: Re: #1's response

While I might privately agree with you, nobody died or was short food.
We all, I hope, can learn from this one, which is why I'm here.  Even if it is
only who not to do business with.

Zack Arbios

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From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:05:28 EDT
Subject: Re: #1's response

Taught Fencing for 13 Years Foil Epee and Saber...
I'm there 6' 1" but older and slower.

Zack

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From: "Chris Velardi" <tchris@freewwweb.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:15:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Sound Insulation

Rhino Lining
--

>I was wondering what people are using for sound insulation in their 
>Series vehicle?? In our 1969 we have nothing (bare metal nothing), and on 
>the highway with that V8 it can get a little noisy (mostly from the 
>transfer case). Any ideas? Thanks,
>--Jason

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From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:22:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Parts transaction between LRO List members (long, minimal LR cont

Not a lawyer, but I disagree.

The elements of a contract are ;  1.  Offer,  which for the transaction
contemplated, seems all there.  2. Acceptance.  , Seems all there as well.  3.
Consideration ( a lawyerly term which doesn't mean what you might think it
does.   It can be taken to mean cash).  not there, but effort to make the
transaction go forward certainly is which is almost as good.  

Nobody died, nobody went hungry, We won't do business with him in future.
This is where most of this will go.

But I do get to referee the fencing match.  Real epees without protective gear
of any kind.  First blood or eye patch.

Zack Arbios

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From: "Wolfe, Charles" <CWolfe@smdc.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:27:58 -0500
Subject: Alternator wiring help!!

So I bought a wiring harness meant for my 59 II.  Should I use the new
wiring with my 60 AMP alternator or do I nee to run 10 Guage wire from
the alternator??  The wiring diagram from Rovers North shows using
existing wire but I heard I should use the larger guage (10 G).  What do
you think/know?

Cwolfe

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From: Zaxcoinc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:37:22 EDT
Subject: Re: Manifold Mouse

Regarding Mice in engines,

They tend to not only fill things up but also urinate with seems to be great
frequency.  Salt water is not a pleasant environment for machined surfaces.
I'd probably turn the motor over by hand, with a shop-vac providing some
pressure at the carb end for fun.  Perhaps you could even short circuit the
Shop-vac Exhaust to Inlet so as to get the most flow possible.  Then if you
could get the thing turning over easily with the hand crank, you don't have
too much to lose by running it.  

We used to put a lot of old engines back into service on the Ranch, and found
that once getting ignition, pouring a drizzle of Marvel Mystery Oil down the
carb at a rate which would allow the engine to continue to run gave us better
service than without such a process.  Besides, the can is so cool...

Zack Arbios

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "The Stockdales" <mstockdale@mho.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:02:02 -0600
Subject: On how not to Recharge a Battery.

I wouldn't be suprised if you have also damaged a valve.
Remember that explosion in you exhaust has an effect on both
ends of the system.  I have seen this happen before, fuel
gets into the exhaust and an errant spark ignites it.  Blows
the muffler clean apart and also splits a valve.  Do a
compression check before you proceed to far.

Mitch and the Red Dinosaur

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: MARCINKO3@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:19:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Warn 8724-50

Bill,

     I helped Phil Rau install one a few months back at the Brit car show at
Elan. they are here and you can get one. For a Warn, it is a very nice winch. 

Steve 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:42:01 -0300
Subject: Re: Warn 8724-50

If you have the space on the front of your vehicle the 8274 is the best
electric winch for offroad use. It is more powerful than many rated up
to 10,000 lbs and a whole lot faster. The Battery drain is a little
greater but if you are well set up with a large battery and a good
alternator this isn't a problem.
  John and Muddy

>      I helped Phil Rau install one a few months back at the Brit car show at
> Elan. they are here and you can get one. For a Warn, it is a very nice winch.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "ALLAN SMITH" <smitha@candw.lc>
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:41:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Buying/selling

Hi all - back today after nearly two months of computer problems, and had
the same impression as Adrian (although his offline time was momentary in
comparison :-)
Certainly this was a poorly-conducted exchange, and I sympathise. ( A few
years ago I  called the owner of a Niva  to confirm a time to meet to
exchange a bank draft for a vehicle that I thought I was buying only to be
told that someone had come by with cash so it was now gone. I fumed for a
while and then called him back .....).

Still,  the feeding frenzy that resulted gives a poor impression of the
integrity of the list members. I don't think the scale of an exhange
matters - it could be a frame or a crankshaft seal - it is how it is
conducted. In every LR list transaction I have had I  felt I was dealing
with friends, and don't plan to change that impression soon.

My 2c.

Which is an Eastern Caribbean aluminium square coin that makes a great
washer.

Allan

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: jimfoo@uswest.net
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:26:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Buying/selling

ALLAN SMITH wrote:
>... and had the same impression as Adrian (although his offline time > was 
momentary in comparison :-)
> Certainly this was a poorly-conducted exchange, and I sympathise.
> Still,  the feeding frenzy that resulted gives a poor impression of > the 
integrity of the list members. 

I don't quite agree with the statement here about the members response.
If we sit still, shut up and ignore such sales gone bad, aren't we
saying that it is all right to do the same thing to somebody else. The
seller obviously knew that what he was doing was wrong or he wouldn't
feel bad about doing it. I wouldn't sell something out from under my
friends, so why should we make other people feel that it isn't so wrong
to do it. The more we condone these types of actions, the more
frequently they will happen. Let's all stay friends and keep our word to
each other. If someone wants the most money for their parts than they
should just ask for the highest bid.
	Just my thoughts on the matter. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Jim Hall
Elephant Chaser 1966 IIA 88"

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