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The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

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From: Peter Goundry <peterg@aircast.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:59:44 -0400
Subject: Billing 98

Hi Frank, we were sorry to have missed you but you were as elusive as 
the Marie Celeste. We enquired after you on the Thurs., looked for you 
on the Friday, and you were conspicuous by your absence on the 
Saturday. The club had to settle for Bob Morrison when the club 
photograph was taken outside the LROI tent. Mind you the girls inside 
the tent were much better looking! You green truck provided a suitable 
stand-in for you (LR content).

As far as the Thwaite's is concerned, we did not get up Manchester 
way. Mind you I have always found the beer better on the eastern side 
of the Pennines (being a Yorkshireman). I did want to visit Cookes 
brothers but that will have to wait until X'mas.

Sorry to have missed you but there is always next time unless you want 
to force the issue and take a cheap trip to the USA in the fall. I am 
sure all the clubs in the North East would make you welcome.

Peter Goundry
67 GS 109" IIA, 73 Lightweight, 97 D90 #127

------------------------------

From: Leger Marc-Andre <ma.leger@wefa.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:06:04 -0400
Subject: RE: unsuscribe

Unless you get airbags installed, all vehicles of less than 25 years of
age are subject to strict safety regulations, these are all on the web
at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov . There are, of course, customs regulations,
tariffs and so on, but really, just the cost of installing an airbag is
a show stopper... regardless of the current controversies on their
use...

             / ,            |                        |
        /\  \|/  /\         | Marc-Andre Leger        |
        |\\_;=._//|         | Network Eng.             |
         \."   "./          | WEFA inc.                |
         //^\ /^\\          | 800 Baldwin Tower        |
  .'``",/ |0| |0| \,"``'.   | Eddystone Pennsylvania   |
 /   ,  `'\.---./'`  ,   \  | USA                      |
/`  /`\,."(     )".,/`\  `\ | 19022                    |
/`     ( '.'-.-'.' )     `\ | (610) 490-2763           |
/"`     "._  :  _."     `"\ | mailto:ma.leger@wefa.com |
 `/.'`"=.,_``=``_,.="`'.\`  | http://www.wefa.com      |
           )   (            |                         |
 My roomate Tigger (the cat)|________________________|

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
Albert Einstein  

------------------------------

From: MARCINKO3@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:44:08 EDT
Subject: Re: unsuscribe

In a message dated 98-07-26 21:26:06 EDT, you write:

<< , I think I'm better off letting mine go. >>

Yes, Alex does a lot of crack. 

Big kiss.

Steve 

------------------------------

From: M.J.Rooth@lboro.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:02:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Silly Yank Ways

 and we may - just may if you ask really nicely -
>let you back into the Empire.......
Er...No,Frank.*Not* until they learn to play cricket...

Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: jules@learnlink.emory.edu (Sean P. Murphy)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:43:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Austin Gipsy manual & LR Manual

lro@playground.sun.com writes:
>Hello All.  I have two Land Rover Haynes manuals.  Series II, IIA and 
>III 1958 thru 1978.  140 Cu In or 2.3 liter. 4 cylinder gas.  88 and 
>108 wheelbase. These Workshop Manuals are new and out of print.  Also 
>have one Haynes Austin
>Marina 1971 thru 1975.  New and out of print.  Each manual $25 
>shipped
>John Rossi  Flintstone,  Ga.  706-820-1771

Where is Flintstone, Georgia?  I'm in Atlanta.  Do you have Rovers to go
with those manuals?

Sean P. Murphy
Project Director, LearnLink
Emory University

------------------------------

From: "Tackley, John" <jtackley.dit@state.va.us>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:02:58 -0400
Subject: RE: It's been a long time...

Steve, 
What a generous offer!  If not already spoken for, I would be proud to
have the front axle.  I, too, lived near Ithaca.  I grew up in Owego but
now live in VA.  I visit Owego often as my family still reside in the
immediate area.  In fact I will be staying at my Mom's house while
attending the Greek Peak event.  Sorry you can;t make it.  E-mail to
advise, and thanks!

------------------------------

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:12:00 -0500
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

>on the wrong side of the road and you drink cold beer.
>Frank

Is there any other way of drinking beer other than really cold?
Are we being serious here?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744
, you drive

>             +--+--+--+
>            I !__|  [_]|_\___
>            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
>            "(o)======(o)"

------------------------------

From: "Richard Marsden" <rmarsden@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:22:03 +0100
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

You only drink beer cold if you don't want to taste it!

And American beer is weaker than tap water.

(excluding some of the microbrewery output from this latter derogatory
comment)

Richard (ex-Gurkha SIII 109 FFR)

"Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr> on 07/27/98 02:12:00 PM

Please respond to lro@playground.sun.com

cc:    (bcc: Richard Marsden/EAME/VDGC)

Subject:  RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

>on the wrong side of the road and you drink cold beer.
>Frank
Is there any other way of drinking beer other than really cold?
Are we being serious here?

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744
, you drive

>             +--+--+--+
>            I !__|  [_]|_\___
      [ truncated by lro-lite (was 9 lines)]

------------------------------

From: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:27:35 -0400
Subject: RE: Proper Ale Temperatures for Manuel...

>Is there any other way of drinking beer other than really cold?
>Are we being serious here?

Yes we are and I'm wishing you were closer.

Good ale is tasteless at too-cold a temperature - it should be drunk at
45-50 degrees F. This lets the proper tastes come through.

If you ever get up this way let me know and we can educate your beer palate
properly.

               Alan R./Chelmsford.MA. USA...

------------------------------

From: David Scheidt <david@infocom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:37:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Richard Marsden wrote:

> You only drink beer cold if you don't want to taste it!

If it is hot, cold beer is rather nice.  Of course, you brits wouldn't
know anything about that.  

> And American beer is weaker than tap water.

And British beer is going that way, so don't be too smug. 

Besides, there is a strong argument that "American-piss beers" are in the
very old tradtion of small beer, which isn't intended to cause
intoxication, but rather quench thirst and provide some carbohydarates.
Beer as an energy drink:  I love it!

David 

------------------------------

From: "Kenner, Dixon" <Dixon.Kenner@ms.rc.x400.gc.ca>
Date: 27 Jul 1998 10:20:00 -0400
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Norman Lewis <norm@kpco.com> writes:

>So what about suffix H??  Very late Ser IIa's had suffix H serial
>chassis numbers, but its not on your list.  Are you sure about the
>suffix F, as I seem to recall that F was skipped?

My table shows an H starting in 11/70, but it relates to the axles and
diff.  Could be in the wrong column though.  (Table shows seperate
suffixes for chassis, engine, gearbox, and axles)

-----

------------------------------

From: "Richard Marsden" <rmarsden@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:46:09 +0100
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

I know what you mean, and these are the only circumstances I 'd normally
drink lager.
When its hot + done some manual work.

Not quite supping a decent beer in t'pub...

Even with a weak beer, it seems a bit odd to drink a diuretic if
dehydrated!

Richard (ex-Gurkha SIII 109 FFR)

David Scheidt <david@infocom.com> on 07/27/98 03:37:30 PM

Please respond to lro@playground.sun.com

cc:    (bcc: Richard Marsden/EAME/VDGC)

Subject:  RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Richard Marsden wrote:

> You only drink beer cold if you don't want to taste it!

If it is hot, cold beer is rather nice.  Of course, you brits wouldn't
know anything about that.

> And American beer is weaker than tap water.
And British beer is going that way, so don't be too smug.

Besides, there is a strong argument that "American-piss beers" are in the
very old tradtion of small beer, which isn't intended to cause
intoxication, but rather quench thirst and provide some carbohydarates.
Beer as an energy drink:  I love it!

David

------------------------------

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:49:49 -0500
Subject: RE: unsuscribe

>just a thought here. I know that some people buy pre 69 Ser motors in the
UK,
>have them 'seen to' by a LR specialist and ship 'em back home - something
to
>do with the tax laws and the years when LR first imported?
>So, with clean (but not perfect) 110/Nineties easily available over here
for
>£10,000 sterling would it not be a proposition to do the same with them...
or
>am I missing something legalwise?
>Best Cheers
>Frank

To do so, you need the truck to be 25 years old, that means up to 1973
models, OR get them fitted to comply with emission standards -quite
expensive deal-!!
Series III seems to be tops for importing to the US.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

>             +--+--+--+
>            I !__|  [_]|_\___
>            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
>            "(o)======(o)"

------------------------------

From: David Scheidt <david@infocom.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:55:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Richard Marsden wrote:

> Even with a weak beer, it seems a bit odd to drink a diuretic if
> dehydrated!

Consider though, that until recently, many places had water that wasn't
fit to drink.  Beer is unlikely to give you cholera.  See "Alcohol in the
Western World", Bert Vallee, Scientific American, June 1998.  Vallee
covers pre-distilation uses of alcohol.  Quite interesting.  Unfortunatly,
it is not on SciAm's web site.

David

------------------------------

From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" <rover@pinn.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:20:36 -0400
Subject: Great goo

>RoverNut@aol.com Alex Maiolo wrote:

> otherwise add "climbing" gear oil, at a ratio of up to 20% in the
>Fairey and it will run cooler and stay lubed a little better. Personally, I
>like the stuff they sell at NAPA. You know, the stuff that climbs up the
>spinning cogs you play with while you wait an hour to be served...
>That's some great goo.

It's called "HiTach" and I use it everywhere.  I've found that it lowers
the temp in the transfer case by 80 F.  

Here's another thought to file away for future use.  A while back, I
reported that my fuel guage had started reading weird.  This weekend,
anticipating a long hot run to Greek Peak, I changed out the coolant and
tried to cure my occasional "spikes" in the temp guage.  It would almost
redline, but a meat thermometer in the rad said all was well.  A new
thermostat and temp sending unit failed to cure the problem.

Driving along, eying the redlined temp guage with trepidation, I came to me
in a flash.  Where to gas and water meet?  The instrument voltage
stabilizer!  Eureka!  Problem solved.  

See you all at Greek Peak....

Cheers

  *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----*
  |                                                   |
  |             A. P. ("Sandy") Grice                 |
  |    Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
  |     Association of North American Rover Clubs     |
  |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
  |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 |
  *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----*

------------------------------

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:11:53 -0500
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

>You only drink beer cold if you don't want to taste it!
>And American beer is weaker than tap water.

My God.
Warm beer. And I thought we all were growing into one big global comunity.
On the later you are right.
We don't have weak beer around here, in CR, We make beer like it is supposed
to be, and drink it like its supposed to (that is COLD, really really COLD,
sometimes with some little frozen bits in it).

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

------------------------------

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:19:46 -0500
Subject: RE: Proper Ale Temperatures for Manuel...

Thanks Alan, I"ll have it in mind.
But, God, I can't even imagine a beer comercial showing warm beer.
I dont know if I'm right but this has caused a cultural shock on me.

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com <Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com>
Para: lro@playground.sun.com <lro@playground.sun.com>
Fecha: Lunes 27 de Julio de 1998 08:32 AM
Asunto: RE: Proper Ale Temperatures for Manuel...

>>Is there any other way of drinking beer other than really cold?
>>Are we being serious here?
>Yes we are and I'm wishing you were closer.
>Good ale is tasteless at too-cold a temperature - it should be drunk at
>45-50 degrees F. This lets the proper tastes come through.

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 18 lines)]
>properly.
>               Alan R./Chelmsford.MA. USA...

------------------------------

From: M.J.Rooth@lboro.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:31:31 +0000
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

 (that is COLD, really really COLD,
>sometimes with some little frozen bits in it).

OK Luis.So if you freeze it enough,then pour off what's left,you've got
the alcohol content.Which makes it a short drink,not a long one.Big deal.
You drink your beer the way you want,we'll drink ours the way *we* want.
English Ale,with English hops,should be drunk at 45-50F for maximum taste.
Typically 3.8-4.8 or 5% Alcohol By Volume.And contrary to foreign opinion
it doesnt need a refrigerator,Lucas,Bosch,Ducellier,AC Delco or anyone elses.It
needs a cellar,which will keep it at the required temperature,using no
power at all.And it is drawn at the bar into a pint pot,using a Beer
Engine,which is a manual pump,not an electric one nor,heaven forbid,is
it blasted up the pipe using gas pressure.
I think,in fact,you'd find,it suits our climate perfectly,as yours no
doubt suits yours.

Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: "Luis Manuel Gutierrez" <lgutierr@jccr.co.cr>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:43:05 -0500
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

--
> (that is COLD, really really COLD,
>>sometimes with some little frozen bits in it).
>OK Luis.So if you freeze it enough,then pour off what's left,you've got
>the alcohol content.Which makes it a short drink,not a long one.Big deal.
>You drink your beer the way you want,we'll drink ours the way *we* want.
>English Ale,with English hops,should be drunk at 45-50F for maximum taste.
>Typically 3.8-4.8 or 5% Alcohol By Volume.And contrary to foreign opinion
>it doesnt need a refrigerator,Lucas,Bosch,Ducellier,AC Delco or anyone

elses.It
>needs a cellar,which will keep it at the required temperature,using no
>power at all.And it is drawn at the bar into a pint pot,using a Beer
>Engine,which is a manual pump,not an electric one nor,heaven forbid,is
>it blasted up the pipe using gas pressure.
>I think,in fact,you'd find,it suits our climate perfectly,as yours no
>doubt suits yours.
>Cheers
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 10 lines)]
>Cheers
>Mike Rooth

Like its always been my moto: "Every day you learn something new" (specially
on this list!).
Now I know that whenever any of you british decide to visite this tropical
site, I'll prepare myself and take some bottles out of the Samsung (no Lucas
here!) refrigerator, for a propper welcome.

...and about the alcohol by volume, 5% sounds just right....

Lic. LUIS MANUEL GUTIERREZ CHACON
Jose Cartellone Construcciones Civiles S.A.
E-mail: lgutierr@jccr.co.cr
Tel: (506) 296 2743
Fax: (506) 296 2744

------------------------------

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:09:09 -0700
Subject: ...like making love in a canoe.

On a recent, non LR related trip to Seattle, a couple of friend and I
had dinner with about 15 American friends. (see
http://www.interbridge.com/photos/seattle.html) I'm standing on the
right.  When it came time to order our drinks, us Canadians ordered a
couple of Guinness.  When they arrived, the pints of Guinness sure stood
out from all the other pale, pale glasses of B*dweiser &  C*or's
light... like two black sheep in flock.   Many of the Yanks looked at us
with an expression that plainly said 'ugh, how can you drink that
stuff...?'   Of course we returned the sentiments  :-)

Back on topic, well, I guess beer is *always* an acceptable topic...
my Rover goes into the shop to have the remains of it's rear crossmember
removed and the new one fused on.  I also plan to have some repairs done
on a bent & rusted front chassis horn.  I am going to have both front
and back waxoiled after the repairs.  Any other maintenance
recommendations while I have the tub off?

Paul Quin
1961 Series II 88
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/4954/
Victoria, BC  Canada

------------------------------

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:21:02 EDT
Subject: Re: ...like making love in a canoe.

In a message dated 7/27/98 12:14:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Paul_Quin@pml.com writes:

<<  Any other maintenance
 recommendations while I have the tub off? >>

Flip the tub over and check the crossmembers for severe rust damage and the
floor of the tub for needed repairs.

Nate

------------------------------

From: "Ray Burton" <Ray_Burton@usairways.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:38:22 -0400
Subject: Re: ...like making love in a canoe.

Paul,

Not all Yanks are so uncouth.  I drink Guinness whenever possible (which
excludes the hellish months of July and August down here in the "Sweat
Belt" of the southeast  USA).  During those months, I prefer something
lighter, like a Bass Ale or a Young's London Lager.  I, also, get the same
reactions as you got whenever I order steak & kidney pie, liver & onions or
calimari (aka: cuttlefish or squid)

Ray
Richmond VA
'64 109 SW "Lola"
'70 88
'84 RR

------------------------------

From: Leger Marc-Andre <ma.leger@wefa.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:48:34 -0400
Subject: Guiness !

In my personal experience as a Canadian now living in Philly, Guiness is
available on tap here !

             / ,            |                        |
        /\  \|/  /\         | Marc-Andre Leger        |
        |\\_;=._//|         | Network Eng.             |
         \."   "./          | WEFA inc.                |
         //^\ /^\\          | 800 Baldwin Tower        |
  .'``",/ |0| |0| \,"``'.   | Eddystone Pennsylvania   |
 /   ,  `'\.---./'`  ,   \  | USA                      |
/`  /`\,."(     )".,/`\  `\ | 19022                    |
/`     ( '.'-.-'.' )     `\ | (610) 490-2763           |
/"`     "._  :  _."     `"\ | mailto:ma.leger@wefa.com |
 `/.'`"=.,_``=``_,.="`'.\`  | http://www.wefa.com      |
           )   (            |                         |
 My roomate Tigger (the cat)|________________________|

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
Albert Einstein  

------------------------------

From: RoverNut@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:44:55 EDT
Subject: Re: LR driving Yanks

In a message dated 98-07-27 07:10:52 EDT, you write:

<< However, Alex, dear chap, you are on the right lines - now just convert the
 other however many millions and we may - just may if you ask really nicely -
 let you back into the Empire....... >>

I forgot to add:
I think I'm one of the 7 people in the US that truly understands cricket.
HOW'S THAT?!?!?!?! HMM!!??! Now can I come back home? Pleeeeaaassee?

Bowling a Yorker through your stumps,

Alex Maiolo <-------bain of Molly Doogers and Thwaites (the SECOND best beer
in the UK) drinkers everywhere.

------------------------------

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:49:14 -0700
Subject: RE: ...like making love in a canoe.

	Ray writes:Not all Yanks are so uncouth.  I drink Guinness
whenever possible (which
	excludes the hellish months of July and August down here in the
"Sweat
Belt" of the southeast  USA).  

I hear you.  Right now BC is having a nice heat wave.  Interior
temperatures are up around 40deg C.  That's well over 100deg F.  Here on
the coast it's a more comfortable 30.  At these temperatures, I prefer
an ice cold apple cider - and lot's of water.

Paul in Victoria.

------------------------------

[digester: Removing section of:  Content-Type: multipart/mixed;  ]
From: "Ray Burton" <Ray_Burton@usairways.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:59:44 -0400
Subject: RE: ...like making love in a canoe.
Content-Disposition: inline

Paul,

I remember getting excellent apple cinders at "The Fortification" a quaint
bar in old Montreal while on vacation many years ago.  I've never been able
to find any down here in the heathen USA that are anything comparable.  If
you're coming to Greek Peak, please bring a few cases.

Ray

                                                                  
 (Embedded                                                        
 image moved   Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>                      
 to file:      07/27/98 12:49 PM                                  
 pic05099.pcx)                                                    
                                                                  

Please respond to lro@playground.sun.com

cc:    (bcc: Ray Burton/VEN/USAIR)
Subject:  RE: ...like making love in a canoe.

     Ray writes:Not all Yanks are so uncouth.  I drink Guinness
whenever possible (which
     excludes the hellish months of July and August down here in the
"Sweat
Belt" of the southeast  USA).

I hear you.  Right now BC is having a nice heat wave.  Interior
temperatures are up around 40deg C.  That's well over 100deg F.  Here on
the coast it's a more comfortable 30.  At these temperatures, I prefer
an ice cold apple cider - and lot's of water.

Paul in Victoria

--0__=posIjsOvkq4QP5ihQMzaJkPIQko3RpeZEtamZY4tDdsGtKDFluxwEncg

------------------------------

From: RoverNut@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:00:46 EDT
Subject: Re:coiless Rifle...

In a message dated 98-07-27 07:10:52 EDT, you write:

<< So, with clean (but not perfect) 110/Nineties easily available over here
for
 £10,000 sterling would it not be a proposition to do the same with them... or
 am I missing something legalwise? >>

If I could pull it off, Frank, these guys on the list would make me a
millionaire. A little bird told me a guy up North is going to jail and all of
the vehicles he's sold are being confiscated. The owners: screwed.
I'm lucky, I almost bought a 110 200 TDI from him.
Defenders and TDI anythings are in demand here for a select, but very
dedicated group (most of whom you chat with daily). People have actually taken
the title from rotted out vehicles and brought Defenders over piece by piece
to reassemble their "1963 Series II 109." *wink*wink*nudge*nudge*
This country is no fun. It's one thing to not import them commercially for
safety, lack of profit or other reasons, but to refuse a citizen the right to
do it under his own wherewithall - phooey.

Alex Maiolo

------------------------------

From: "Ray Burton" <Ray_Burton@usairways.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:06:17 -0400
Subject: RE: ...like making love in a canoe.	[multipart mime alternative 6

To all on the list,

Please forgive all the garbage at the end of my previous posting.  It is
beyond my control.  The e-mail package here is a cooperative effort between
Lotus and IBM, therefore you can understand the monster that it is.

Again, I apologize.

Ray Burton

------------------------------

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:06:57 -0700
Subject: Greak Peak vs Portland ABFM

I don't think that I'll be making it to Greek Peak, but from what I
hear, there will be 500+ Land Rovers at this year's Portland (OR) All
British Field Meet on the Labour Day long weekend.  Looks inviting.  I
may be able to make the 300 mile trip, depending on how much work I can
do to the LR over the next month.  Anybody else fron the left coast
going to make it to Portland?

Paul in Victoria.

------------------------------

From: Michael Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:33:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Portland ABFM

 
 I don't think that I'll be making it to Greek Peak, but from what I
 hear, there will be 500+ Land Rovers at this year's Portland (OR) All
 British Field Meet on the Labour Day long weekend.  Looks inviting.  I
 may be able to make the 300 mile trip, depending on how much work I can
 do to the LR over the next month.  Anybody else fron the left coast
 going to make it to Portland?
 
 Paul in Victoria.
 
Paul,

   Yes, I'll be there with Bronze Green bells on. I guess now would be
a good time to reannounce the event. With the Greek Peak event coming, it
wouldn't have been fair to steal their thunder, but now is OK. The Pacific
Coast Land Rover Club is part host/sponsor for this years All Brit Field
Meet, held at Portland Intl Raceway as usual on Labor Day weekend in Portland
Or. Land Rover is the featured marque in honor of the 50th blah blah blah.
We're expecting a LOT of Land Rovers, don't know about 500, but certainly
200, which is still a lot for the US. It will be one of the largest West
Coast events. Please come on down Paul, and as many of the BC folks as you can
muster. There are large contingents coming from California, Washington, Idaho,
Colorado even, as well as Oregon of course.
    All are invited to check the official website at:

    http://www.abfm-pdx.com/

   On site camping is again available, so pack up the family and come out and
enjoy lots of drooling 90wt history. Lot's of fun.

Rgds
Mike Fredette

------------------------------

From: RWilli4013@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:59:24 EDT
Subject: unsubscribe lro

unsubscribe lro please

------------------------------

From: Keith Cutler <keith_cutler@csgsystems.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:59:25 -0600
Subject: 7:1 / 8:1 How to Tell?

According to "Practical Classics" (a sister publication of "Land Rover
Owner International") engines starting with serial numbers 253, 251, 904
and 364 are 7:1 compression.

Keith Cutler
1960 Series II SWB Pickup

------------------------------

From: BPJenks@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:17:25 EDT
Subject: 1 Thirsty D90

Have a blue '94 D-90 with 70k on the clock.  Loves to drink gas.

Had left oxygen sensor replaced, and timing checks out dead on. Air filter is
clean, 8.5mm spark plug wires are new, however, vehicle averages 9 -10 mpg.

Any sugestions????

------------------------------

From: BPJenks@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 14:22:47 EDT
Subject: Rough ride

'94 D-90 with BFG MTA...265/75/16...w/ 5k on them.  A vibration kicks in at
about 62mph.  It feels as if a tire is out balance, but the tires have been
trued...balanced...and 'replaced' (I'm on the second set in 15k because I
thought the tires were the problem).  Having replaced the tires...the problem
still persists...I don't think the problem is the driveshaft...the vibration
is not fast enough....any ideas????

------------------------------

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 98 15:50:58 EST
Subject: Re: 1 Thirsty D90

>Had left oxygen sensor replaced, and timing checks out dead on. Air filter is 
>clean, 8.5mm spark plug wires are new, however, vehicle averages 9 -10 mpg.

I think that's what most of them get.

It *is* a Land Rover!!!

Bob Kelly (D90) says to me the other day, "you know what business i wish i 
owned?" 

"No, what?"

"A gas station right next to Greek Peak"

Now that's what i call business savvy...
daveb

------------------------------

From: MARCINKO3@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:48:38 EDT
Subject: Re: Silly Yank Ways

In a message dated 98-07-26 21:38:37 EDT, you write:

 Alex Maiolo <-------a master of left-side road driving in ANY country
 (hahahahaha!) >>

Alex also does a lot of fishing. Which means he bates his own hook. He has
been dooing it for so long he is now a Master Bater. 

Steve

------------------------------

From: MARCINKO3@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 08:46:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Zebra

the d90 LR Cary had an after market Zebra decal kit on it, but they couldn't
sell it. 
The stripes have been removed and I think it sold.

Rover on...

Steve 
Armada Off-Road LLC 

------------------------------

From: "Yves" <yves.L@suisse.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:21:33 +0200
Subject: Re:  Experience with 9.00 R 15 Sand Tyres?

>As I am frequently doing trips in the Sahara desert with my 1996 SIIa 4cyl

Sorry, I wanted to say 1962 IIa ;-)  Thanks for the hint, Ray.

Yves

------------------------------

From: asfco <asfco@banet.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:43:26 -0400
Subject: New Roof rack F/S

I have a brand new full length galvanized roof rack for sale.  I can
deliver it to you at Greek Peak to save on shipping costs.
e-mail quickly if interested
Rgds
Steve Bradke

------------------------------

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:47:29 EDT
Subject: Re: Silly Yank Ways

In a message dated 27/07/98 14:04:59 BST, you write:

<< Er...No,Frank.*Not* until they learn to play cricket... >>

Mike,
Michael Atherton's excellent innings today aside - when are WE going to learn
to play cricket again ?
 Anyway they play rounders, rugby and netball - I seen 'em on CNN -  it was a
bit different from proper rounders, rugby and netball, but essentially the
same :-)> (nomex knickers ON)

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

------------------------------

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:47:37 EDT
Subject: Re: ...like making love in a canoe.[multipart mime alternative 6 lines 
deleted

In a message dated 27/07/98 18:06:14 BST, you write:

<< apple cinders >>

If you meant 'cider' then carry on. If you really meant cinders then, first
you need a small fire...........
Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

------------------------------

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:47:33 EDT
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

In a message dated 27/07/98 15:39:42 BST, you write:

<< Beer as an energy drink:  I love it! >>

David,
following my heart attack I am under doctor's orders to 'have a pint, it will
do you good.'  he meant to add 'warm' but he's a busy man.

anyway I'm quoting him to the magistrate when my case comes up :-)>

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

------------------------------

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:47:34 EDT
Subject: Re: ...like making love in a canoe.

Oh for goodness sake, what have I started?

For once and for all.. if you are hot and thirsty, drink an ice-cold Coke or
Dr Pepper (or even water..... no, well maybe not)
If you want a DRINK, have a beer served at the correect temperature ie, as
Mike said, one which is not so cold it kills the taste.
Let's get back to sanity, Land Rovers....... err, though now I think about
it...........

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

------------------------------

From: Frankelson@aol.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:47:36 EDT
Subject: Re: coiless Rifle...

In a message dated 27/07/98 18:05:16 BST, you write:

<< a select, but very
 dedicated group (most of whom you chat with daily). People have actually
taken
 the title from rotted out vehicles and brought Defenders over piece by piece
 to reassemble their "1963 Series II 109." *wink*wink*nudge*nudge*
 This country is no fun. It's one thing to not import them commercially for
 safety, lack of profit or other reasons, but to refuse a citizen the right to
 do it under his own wherewithall - phooey. >>

that was going to be my next suggestion. We have a 'tax-exempt' class for
vehicles built before 1973 (used to be a rolling 25 year old - b*st*rds). A
guy I know turned up in a  nearly new Ninety the other day - 'like my tax
exempt Ser 11?' he said . same sort of nudge nudge wink wink, know wot I mean,
squire.....

ah well, despite my recent postings about our differences one thing seems to
be fairly standard throughout the world. 'they' want to screw us all, make us
wear grey suits and sit at home in front of the 'box' and not think....
another good reason for owning a Land Rover. Own one of those suckers and
we're sort of forced into thinking all the time.........

Best Cheers

Frank
             +--+--+--+   	        
            I !__|  [_]|_\___   
            I ____|”_|"__|_ | /   B791 PKV - Bronze Green 110
            "(o)======(o)"

------------------------------

From: "Andrew Steele" <andrewmsteele@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 17:56:15 -0400
Subject: Lease Car Availability in UK? Returning w/ parts.

Speaking of rental cars and moms, my mother is moving to England in August
for a few years.  She has me coming over to take a look at cars, and
buy/lease one for her.  Common sense tells me she won't be happy with my
first choice, a diesel 110 (she wants something small), but I will use the
opportunity to parts shop for my RR and Series III.    Anyway, if anyone has
leads on automobile lease companies (around Northampton) or a favorite
dealership, please let me know off list at andrewmsteele@email.msn.com.

I'm assuming that my to be purchased, new rear lift window frame (to replace
my completely rusted -- I can stick my fingers in through the frame) will
pack and travel just fine in an airline provided bicycle box with a little
foam.  Anyone have experience to the contrary -- or other travel/packaging
suggestions for "awkward" sized, must have LR parts?  What experience have
you had with US airport Customs Officers.   "Really Sir, this is not
business travel, I always select my vacation destination for the
availability of non-farm OEM parts."

Thanks
Andrew Steele
73 Series III (windows permanently stuck open, see below)
87 RR (no back seat, see below)
1 Great Dane

------------------------------

From: "David and Cynthia Walker" <wahooadv@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 16:15:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Greak Peak vs Portland ABFM

Paul, I am glad to see you changed your mind and are coming. If you come to
Seattle on Thursday, we may have a bunk for you.

Cheers
David
Full-time father of a 3.5 year old
1970 Land Rover IIA, 88" - "BEAN TOAD"
S/V KALAKALA, Ingrid 38, ketch - our home
wahooadv@earthlink.net

------------------------------

From: James Wolf <J.Wolf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:24:41
Subject: Scotland

>ubject:  Scotland
>Well the Misses and I are planning a trip/holiday to
>Scotland in mid September.  Interested in driving a Series
>Rig while there anybody, anybody?
>Looking for advice; 7 days, arrive Glasgow, where /what
>should we see?

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 11 lines)]
>should we see?
>Mitch and the Red Dinosaur

DON'T MISS THE SCOTCH WHISKEY TOUR !! If you do you'll wish you had taken
it, until your next visit 8^).

Jim Wolf

------------------------------

From: Christian Neuhaus <chnw@amauta.rcp.net.pe>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:02:47 -0500
Subject: unsuscribe

Unsuscribe  lro@land-rover.team.net chnw@amauta.rcp.net.pe  

------------------------------

From: "Mark Talbot" <rangerover@top.monad.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:27:37 -0400
Subject: NH / VT of-road trip....

Hello all,

Some of you have inquired about the off-road trip I was planning in late
August. Unfortunately due to my work schedule I'm going to have to postpone
this event until September sometime.

I would like to try and do a two state trip over a weekend. I was thinking
NH on the Saturday, Vermont on the Sunday. Chris Velardi is going to arraneg
the Vermont off-road trip for me...

The plan is this...(we may switch the sat VT and Sun NH)

Saturday, NH travel down the power lines, green lanes.

Saturday Evening - Cook out.

Sunday, VT off-road trip....

I will look at dates into September, maybe as the leaves are changing....

E-mail me if your interested.

Mark

------------------------------

From: chrisste@clark.net (Chris Stevens)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:56:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: New Roof rack F/S

how much?

>I have a brand new full length galvanized roof rack for sale.  I can
>deliver it to you at Greek Peak to save on shipping costs.
>e-mail quickly if interested
>Rgds
>Steve Bradke

------------------------------

From: bcw6@cornell.edu (Braman Wing)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 00:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Tweaking the 2.25 petrol ?(long and probably boring)

>any ideas for tweaking the 2.25 without loosing in simplicity and
>reliability?

>I need more low down and mid range torque, top speed is unimportant.

This is a tough one, because the engine is designed specifically for low
end grunt and it is difficult to improve upon. The shape of the torque
curve is largely a function of the volumetric efficiency of the engine, or
how it "breathes". You can change it by tuning the manifolds and valve
timing to flow more air and provide a boost due to inertial and resonance
effects of the air.

Manifold
In general, longer intake runners boost low end torque at the expense of
high speed torque. The stock intake has fairly average runners, and as a
rough guess(very rough,I don't have my references handy) it is probably
tuned for about 3-4000rpm or even higher.  Therefore, it would seem that
you could add some low end by making an intake with longer runners.
However, there is a catch, and this is probably the reason Rover engineers
did not do this themselves. On a carburetted or throttle-body-injected
engine, the fuel tends to "un-evaporate" and condense on the walls of the
intake runners. With relatively short runners, this is not a big problem,
but with long runners, by the time the mixture reaches the cylinder, the
fuel is not as well vaporized as it should be. It negates any power gain
and does horrible things to economy and cold starting. However, with port
injection, where the fuel is sprayed onto the hot intake valve to aid
vaporization, you can use any length runners you like. Thus you see newer
cars with longer and more elaborate intake manifolds.

Cam
In terms of valve timing, the simple version is that low durations and low
overlaps aid low end performance, while high overlaps and durations boost
the high end. The 2.25 cam is very low duration. Thus it pulls like a
tractor at low speed but runs out of breath quickly. Purely conjecture, but
I'm guessing that the 2.5L cam is a higher duration cam designed to improve
the midrange slightly without sacrificing too much low end. This was
probably in response to more and more rovers seeing highway use. Likewise,
I think that people like Turner and automotive make big power gains by
using a hotter cam. The torque figures you have certainly bear this out. If
it would hold together, I'm sure the 2.25 could make at least 150bhp with
the right cam and manifold tuning. Driveability would be a problem, though.

exhaust
A free flowing exhaust system with headers can help a lot. The length of
the headers is not nearly as critical as the length of the intake runners,
and the headers available for the 2.25 are long enough to begin with.

Compression Ratio
Raising the compression ratio will increase the torque across the entire
rev range. This is the easiest way to improve power, and you improve the
fuel economy at the same time. However, knocking limits the amount of
compression you can have. This is espicially a problem at low speed, since
one type of knocking is worst at the engine's torque peak.

b/s ratio(mine is extremely high)
The stroke of the engine is the last major item effecting the torque, and
for low end, longer is better. The 2.25 is roughly a square engine, meaning
the bore is close in dimension to the stroke. This surprises me somewhat,
since british engines of the period tended to be "strokers". increasing the
stroke would be an effective, albeit extremely expensive, way to boost the
low end.

If it were my engine and I was going to take it on an expedition somewhere,
I would convert it to a port injection system and make an intake manifold
with long runners, high flow air cleaners, cold air intake, etc. This would
probably give me about a 10% gain if I am lucky, and if done right could
yield massive reliability benefits. I would definitely add a free flow
exhaust with headers. The headers won't dramatically affect the power, but
they are relatively cheap and easier to repair than a cast manifold since
they can be welded easily. I would then raise the compression ratio as high
as I dared depending on what the fuel situation is where I was planning to
go. On regular petrol, I wouldn't go much above 8.5 to 1. Extensive head
work(porting, big valves, etc.) wouldn't be a cost-effective way to
increase the power. I wouldn't touch the cam. (With these mods, you might
actually see your peak horsepower go down a bit, but it's a tough call. The
increased efficiency and fuel vaporization from the FI would do a lot to
offset this loss).

If you're lucky, the above could net you about 10-15% in low and mid range
torque. If you require more than that, I think the only reasonable thing to
do would to go with a forced induction system. Proably a mechanical
supercharger(roots type) for simplicity and reliability and low end grunt.
I would stll add the FI and exhaust.

To summarize, Boosting the midrange or high end of a 2.25 is relatively
simple and cheap, and dramatic power gains can be made with minimal work,
hence the success of Turner and the like. LRs are so low geared that the
loss in low end torque is probably not noticed. Significant gains in the
low end of the power band are possible, but expensive. The 2.25 has
enormous torque already for its size, and very low in the rev range.

This is an over-simplification for some and incredibly boring for others, I
am sure, but please feel free to ask me about specifics. Engine tuning is
one of my favorite subjects.

cheers,

Braman
1966 88" 2.25 - soon to be resurrected(and fuel injected and supercharged)

P.S. I forgeot to mention - if you can't go FI, at least use an SU carb.
The simplicity, easy tuning and maintenance, and throttle response makes
this the only choice for a performance carb, IMO. It would boost the low
end throttle response over any carb I can think of.

>RPM/torque (LB.FT)
>RPM            1500    2000    2500    3500    4000
>2.25 Std.     108      120      110       90        80
>tuned            100      116     122       138      129

------------------------------

From: Paul Oxley <paul@adventures.co.za>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:07:42 +0200
Subject: Was: Silly Yank Ways, Now: Perfidious Brits

Frankelson@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 27/07/98 14:04:59 BST, you write:
> Michael Atherton's excellent innings today aside - when are WE going 

God, Frank, how can you even mention "The Whinger's" name? That cheating
swine knows he was out to Boucher off Donald, and so does everyone who
saw the incident, including the bloody umpire! The honourable thing to
do would have been to walk. Any of the SA players would have walked as a
matter of principle. Nonetheless England did deserve to win yesterday,
congratulations.

Regards

Paul "really burning up about that one" Oxley
http://AfricanAdrenalin.co.za
http://Adventures.co.za
http://AfricanAdrenalin.com

------------------------------

From: GElam30092@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 01:30:09 EDT
Subject: RE Greak Peak vs Portland ABFM

<<Anybody else fron the left coast going to make it to Portland?>>

I'm not quite on the left coast unless CA falls off in the ocean.  I'll be in
Portland with my daughter, Robyn.  Due to a severe lack of time, we'll be
flying up on Friday and camping at the speedway.  

I'll also fly to Schenectady for a meeting on Thursday and then drive over to
Greek Peak on Friday/Saturday returning to PHX on Sunday.  (Thanks for the
ride offer  Richmond Ray!)

What do the organizers of each event expect in the way of vendor
participation?  Will  RN/BP/AB/ECR/et al be there with LR stuff for sale?

See you all at Greak Peak!
Gerry Elam
PHX AZ
'73 Series III "Tigger"  (daily driver until it hits 110 F / 43 C)
'64 Series IIA Dormobile "Humpty Dumpty"  
'95 Disco "Great White"

------------------------------

From: "Said Geoffrey at MITTS" <Geoffrey.Said@magnet.mt>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:32:32 +0100
Subject: $$$$$ Parts

I went yesterday to buy the parts needed to put my Series III back on wheels.

The cost of everything came to about 85 Local Pounds which are equivalent to 
about 212.5 US Dollars.

Parts included
A second hand left front short halfshaft
A second hand stub axle with nuts
2 new bearing sets
2 new rear oil seals
1 bearing that is needed to support the chrome ball in place.

What do you thing.  Is it expensive or not???

Thanks
Geoffrey
Malta

------------------------------

From: Dale Smith <smithdv1@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 23:39:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

 We don't have weak beer around here, in CR, We make beer like it is
supposed
 to be, and drink it like its supposed to (that is COLD, really really
COLD,
 sometimes with some little frozen bits in it).

I didn't know that you guys made Newcastle or Smith's extra smooth
down there, ya learn something new every day.....;-)
Smitty

------------------------------

From: Mick Forster <cmtmgf@mail.soc.staffs.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:26:14 +0100
Subject: Re: Tweaking the 2.25 petrol ?(long and probably boring)

Braman Wing wrote:
> >any ideas for tweaking the 2.25 without loosing in simplicity and
> >reliability?
> >I need more low down and mid range torque, top speed is unimportant.
> This is a tough one, because the engine is designed specifically for low
> end grunt and it is difficult to improve upon. 

Far from boring, for me this is what the list is all about. I love the
humour and banter but the expertise and knowledge is worth its weight in
gold.
Thanks to everyone for a daily worthwhile read.

I am feeling very apprehensive at the moment, the 109" Safari goes for
its MOT today.

Mick Forster
1972 Series III 109" Safari 2.25 petrol
1963 88" IIA 2.25 petrol
Very sad Metro :-(
http://gawain.soc.staffs.ac.uk/~mick/landpics.html
http://members.aol.com/Tony4star/
http://stox49.soc.staffs.ac.uk/www49/landys/LWBrst/LWBrst.html
(Details will appear as time allows)

------------------------------

From: M.J.Rooth@lboro.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:49:47 +0000
Subject: Re:coiless Rifle...

>This country is no fun.
>Alex Maiolo
Well,we've got *that* in common,at any rate Alex.

Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: M.J.Rooth@lboro.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:15:26 +0000
Subject: Re: Silly Yank Ways

>Michael Atherton's excellent innings today aside - when are WE going to learn
>to play cricket again ?
Perhaps when Ian Botham is cloned........?

> Anyway they play rounders, rugby and netball -
Well,since you mentioned it.I *was* going to say something about Rugby.
Like the Yanks play rugby with little balls.But I didnt like to.....

Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: M.J.Rooth@lboro.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:21:21 +0000
Subject: Re: Was: Silly Yank Ways, Now: Perfidious Brits

 Nonetheless England did deserve to win yesterday,
>congratulations.

Aw come on Paul.It was only a flash in the pan.I reckon your blokes
got a couple of dodgy decisions to their disadvantage.
Our lot are only just getting used to playing a team whose "tail enders"
can actually bat,and what's more play actual strokes when they're doing
it.Nice cricket to watch.Fer crissakes dont play too many one day matches.
Ruins the style,in my view.

Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

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