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Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:59:50 -0400
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Bent rims, how to straighten.

Faye and Peter Ogilvie wrote:
>         Got yet another nail in my tire so took it down to yet another tire store
> to get the tube repaired.  Big problems, the tube that only had a leak from
> the nail suddenly has a hole on the wheel side and is worthless.  The tire
> shop claims no responsibility for the second hole which was undoubtedly
> caused by their tire machine.  I need the tire so I pay the outrageous
> price of $27 for a new tube and all is well, I thought.  Not so, the wheel

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 25 lines)]
> Mahalo
> Peter
If they are saying that all your rims are bent I would bet their
balancer can't handle the LR rims The centre of a LR rim has a much
bigger hole than any other light truck (except Austin Gypsy which is
interchangable) I've had this trouble myself but I am on good enough
terms with the tire shops around here that I can watch the job being
done and they believe me when I tell them they are not doing it right!
        John and Muddy (who's wheels are almost completely round)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:07:30 -0400
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Found a gem but what kind?

Rod Knox wrote:
> Could someone please point me to a site with pictures of Land Rover front
> ends. I found a semi abandoned beauty, one of those rare finds in that it's
> been sitting for years and looks horrible but with only surface rust. I
> didn't want to inspect it too closely or show too much interest without
> knowing anything about it but it looks like it's never been off road! Has a
> plastic grill that is only broken in one place and the tinny looking bumper
> only bent on one corner. I've wanted one for years but could never afford
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 17 lines)]
> seem to find are People trying to sell new ones.
> Please help
If the Rover has the head lights in the fenders and has a plastic grill
then it almost certainly is a Series III. However if it has the lights
in the grill area and has a plastic grill you may have found a rare
ceremonial model. you say that the bumper is tinny, is there any sign
that it may have been chromed ? is there a proper rear bumper? all of
these are signs of the rare model.Keep us posted on whatyou have found.
           John and Muddy ( who is "rarely" clean)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:18:18 +0000
From: Mick Forster <cmtmgf@mail.soc.staffs.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Found a gem but what kind?

Rod Knox wrote:

> Could someone please point me to a site with pictures of Land Rover front
> ends. I found a semi abandoned beauty,

> Please help,
> ends. I found a semi abandoned beauty,

I have some pics on: http://gawain.soc.staffs.ac.uk/~mick/landpics.html

The one you have found sounds like a Series III but the bumpers are normally
anything but tinny. The bumper on my Series III is an ex-military one I have
had for 18 years on three different Landys. Its very good for demolishing gate
posts and things, I just have to paint it every so often to cover the
scratches.

Mick Forster
School of Computing
Staffordshire University
cmtmgf@mail.soc.staffs.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:31:19 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (East Coast Rover Co.)
Subject: Re: Found a gem but what kind?

>Could someone please point me to a site with pictures of Land Rover front
>ends.

The FAQ has lots of cool stuff. If you want a brief run down and photos of
US type Land Rovers check the Information and History section of ECR's web
page. It is just photos of the various types of Rovers found in the US and
how to tell what is what (no advertising). It does take a little while to
load though. (at least on my slow computer)
Have a great day!
http://www.eastcoastrover.com

From: Mike Smith,  EAST COAST ROVER CO.
*Land Rover and Vintage 4X4 Specialists*
21 Tolman Road, Warren, ME (USA) 04864
207.594.8086 phone  207.594.8120 fax
http://www.eastcoastrover.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 8:42:41 -0500
From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Subject: sII bearings

Am I mental or aren't bearing shells re-babbitable (new verb!) Coatings 
can be applied for .010 over and everything. Some places specialize in 
this. I would think though that first-oversize bearings for a series two 
motor shouldn't be all that hard to find.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:56:42 -0500
From: "Spencer K. C. Norcross" <spencern@acr.org>
Subject: ECR Nonsense - Keep it off the list.

jimallen@onlinecol.com (Jim Allen) writes...
> As one member of this merry band, I would prefer that the 
> ECR stuff be left for private discussions. I don't know 
> who is right and who is wrong in this and, frankly, I don't 
> need to hear the issues debated ad nauseum. Whatever 
> problems there are should be worked out by the parties
> involved. Last time, this turned into a pissing contest. 
> Please have mercy on the rest of us and don't let us get 
> caught in the overspray. Again!

Jim, 
i have to disagree, obviously chris, ben and others were unable to be
satisfied by mike, and their last recourse a public forum such as this
list. chris stated as much when bringing this issue up last year.

if you had been extremely dissatisfied with a vendor and been unable to
reach a satisfactory agreement i imagine you would do the same thing, at
the very least to warn others of your experience.

Mike Smith wrote in response to Chris Weinbeck
> I simpply refuse to let a few bad apples ruin my input to this list. 

Mike, 
someone who isnt satisfied with your service is a bad apple? 
is that what you really meant to say?

Re: Ben Newman
Dont make fun of him because he shipped his truck 2500 miles to have it
worked on, not all of us are great mechanics, some of us arent. i'm a
wretched mechanic. he shipped his truck to someone with a known
reputation, someone i imagine he found through this list. he has every
right to relate his experiences back to the list, satisfied or
otherwise.

rgds,
spenny
Arlington, VA

1969 SWB, The Wayback Machine
1965 Ex-MOD LWB, Gromit <- Just add bolts  :-0
Land Rover - 4WD of choice for the Information Superhighway

Q. Why do they call it a kilt?
A. Because a lot of people got kilt when they called it a skirt.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 8:54:01 -0500
From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Subject: Mr. Wheel, straighten up and fly right!

In my area, there's a place called Ye Olde Wheel Shop that will 
straighten bent (steel) wheels. They have a big press that they chuck 
your wheel into and proceed to exert all kind of hyraulic pressure upon 
until it begs for mercy. Then they clean it down to shiny metal and paint 
it so that you get them back looking good as new. I haven't used their 
service, but have heard very good things about them. Perhaps there's a 
similar operation in your part of the world. I found these people via the 
local tire shop.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

------------------------------

From: Roland Klein <klein@bond.net>
Subject: Re: Series 2A engine Stalling
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 09:21:32 PST

Many thanks to the people who responded to my query.  The culprit 
was a small piece of rubber caught in the fuel pick up line.  Despite 
rebuilt carb, new fuel lines, rebuilt fuel pump, new coil, HT leads, etc. 
etc., it comes down to the simplest of solutions.  I guess it could start 
up and the reduced fuel flow could keep it idling, but once I started 
driving, it would consume what was in the float bowl and then die, 
which was usually around 10 min, (which is why I thought it was 
temperature related).  Anyway, after a year in the garage and 18 years 
in a barn, it is finally on the road again.  Thanks again.
Roland Klein
1968 Series IIA 88" Station Wagon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 9:16:35 -0500
From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Subject: Spen, is that really you?

You're sounding more like a Democrat all the time. Are we finally getting 
through to you? Yay!

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

------------------------------

From: b.boehlers@olsy.dk (Bent Boehlers)
Subject: Need supplyer of sparepart
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:35:06 +0100

I have a problem getting a sparepart to my LR 110 from 1983. In the 
collapsible steering shaft assembly there is 2 rubber bushes.

Number of complete shaft is RTC4738, and price about 230 GBP.
Number of the rubber bushes is NRC8367, Prize unknown, but 5 years ago 
about 3 GBP each. These bushes is NO LONGER SERVICED, according to the 
sparepart catalogue.

Do any know about a second source of these bushes ?? In europe ?? or if not 
somewhere else. Even with some mail costs it is supposed to be much cheaper 
than a new shaft.

Hope for Your help.

Happy Rovering

Bent Boehlers

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:51:35 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (East Coast Rover Co.)
Subject: Re: ECR Nonsense - Keep it off the list.

>Jim,
>i have to disagree, obviously chris, ben and others were unable to be
>satisfied by mike, and their last recourse a public forum such as this
>list. chris stated as much when bringing this issue up last year.

I don't mind it being public, but just think the details should be hashed
out in private. Then say publicly if you are satisfied or not. I sent an
email to Chris privately. I'm sure you'll all be filled in if we come to
terms that Chris can live with. I hope so.
>the very least to warn others of your experience.
>i have to disagree, obviously chris, ben and others were unable to be

I agree. I just dumped on the "Painless Wiring" system yesterday. That is
sort of what Chris and Ben are doing. I welcome it, but do feel bad for
those who do not want to hear it. I did offer Ben quite a lot. I think most
would have been satisfied with my efforts to make it up to him

>someone who isnt satisfied with your service is a bad apple?
>is that what you really meant to say?

Probably not. I meant to say that 2 pissed off customers, and myself,
should not dominate the topics of this list.

Have a great day all. Thanks for all your private emails. Hopefully I'll
get one from Chris so we can work out something.

From: Mike Smith,  EAST COAST ROVER CO.
*Land Rover and Vintage 4X4 Specialists*
21 Tolman Road, Warren, ME (USA) 04864
207.594.8086 phone  207.594.8120 fax
http://www.eastcoastrover.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:23:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "PCG" <pcg@tennis.org>
Subject: ECR-Flame fest

With all due respect to Dave B. and Ben,
I know that Ben feels he has been wronged. I remember the threads.  I have had
no personal dealings with ECR or Mike.  I made inquiries on the list and in
private before buying my rover and have responded both in private and on the
list when a question about vendors has come up.  

I miss talking about how to improve my rover and solving problems that come up.
 

Please let's not get into another flame fest. {especially established issue's} 
It's kinda tiring.

PS Being "Toed" must have been painful.

Paul G.
SIII SWB "Grendal"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:23:10 -0500
From: Dean Meyer <Dean.Meyer@citenet.net>
Subject: Front spring hangers

Anybody tell me how the front spring hangers go back on? There is an
offset on one and I don't remember which side they go on. Does it
matter?

Dean Meyer

1964 Morris Mini Minor Traveller "Wanna see my woody?" - (Having the big
snooze)
1966 Austin-Healey 3000 MK III "The moneypit from Vegas" - (Sealed in an
Andy Warhol time capsule and buried in the yard)
1967 Austin-Healey Sprite MK III "The big block" - (95 BHP Swiftune
Sports Tourer  from Longs Corner Farm sitting on the dock at customs!)
1974 Land Rover Series III 88" "Kinabalu" - (How does this go back
together?)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:39:18 -0500
From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Subject: Re: Front spring hangers

Offset goes to the inside. This is the threaded side of the shackle.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:46:59 -0800 (PST)
From: jimallen@onlinecol.com (Jim Allen)
Subject: Re: ECR Nonsense - Keep it off the list.

Spenny-

        Fortunately, if the offending thread (to me at least) is well
marked, I have the option to "delete." That's the ultimate safety net,
isn't it? It looks like the major warfare is over at this point anyway. My
point is that this isn't a trial. We're not judges or a jury and the
details shared are often biased, overly emotional and at times insulting.
Who can tell the truth of the matter based on what we saw here anyway. I
really don't see much good coming out of it. It's one thing to share a
problem with a vendor in a succinct, adult way as a "heads up" to the rest
of us (caveat emptor stuff). But when it goes on and on and the list
becomes a way for the vendor and customer to throw barbs at each
other.....well, 'nuf said.

        Jim Allen

------------------------------

From: Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:50:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Front spring hangers

Thanks, Bill, for answering a question I was about to ask.....how'd you do
that?

Now, for the other half - anyone got any idea on the bolt lengths used in
the spring hangers on an 88 front and back?

               ajr/workin' on the daughter's 88....

------------------------------

From: SPYDERS <SPYDERS@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:27:37 EST
Subject: Re:  Found a gem but what kind?

In a message dated 12/5/97 5:20:48 AM, you wrote:

>I found a semi abandoned beauty, one of those rare finds in that it's
>been sitting for years and looks horrible but with only surface rust. I
>didn't want to inspect it too closely or show too much interest without
>knowing anything about it but it looks like it's never been off road! Has a
>plastic grill that is only broken in one place and the tinny looking bumper
>only bent on one corner. 

It is a 127, the plastic grille was cracked when it was shipped to florida to
have the oil changed. The mechanic forgot to fill the engine before he sent
the owner driving home and it barely made it on the STP additive that was in
there... so it has sat, rusting, until now.

The tinny bumpers are what land Rover puts on their new stuff.

Don't show *any* interest until after I've been up there to dissasemble it and
import it into the US ;-)

Pat
93 "with terrible bumper" 110

ps, seriously, it sounds like a SIII, but who knows from your description...

------------------------------

From: Autoconv <Autoconv@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:03:41 EST
Subject: Re: 3.54 diff question (reply)

Mike

Something we do that may be of interest on the rock crawlers is to fit a 4.75
ratio Ring and pinion we manufacture, this is almost the same as the Ser III
4.7 but uses a different tooth combination ie 8/38 as opposed to the Ser III
of 10/47 this makes a far stronger R & P.

The only problem now is the high range is also lowered, to combat this we fit
a set of higher ratio high range gears in the transfer case to raise high
range.

The overall effect is that low range is lowered by 34.2 % and high range is
lowered by 8 % which is usually acceptable as a rock crawler has larger tyres
anyway.

We think this solution is one of the best but it is fairly expensive and quite
a lot of work. (good things don't come easy)

Regards
David Ashcroft   (Automatic Conversions UK)

------------------------------

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Subject: RE: Waxoyl
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:16:26 -0800

Try a company called Permastoprust America @ 1-800-611-7713

I've never delt with them but they may be able to help you out

Paul Quin
Victoria, BC  Canada
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	SFmms [SMTP:SFmms@aol.com]
>Sent:	Friday, December 05, 1997 12:54 AM
>To:	lro@playground.sun.com
>Subject:	Re: Waxoyl

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 28 lines)]
>Karen Sindir
>'74 SIII 88 "Red Rufy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:36:43 -0500
From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Subject: bolt length

take the length of the shackle bush, add the thickness of the two shackle 
pieces, figure on a fat locknut on the end, and you'll have figured it 
out without even having to remove an old one. Doh!

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

------------------------------

From: DHW4U <DHW4U@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:12:14 EST
Subject: Re: Series 2A engine Stalling

Roland,

While skiing in VT i saw this written on the side of the lift shack

It is not the mountians that lie before you that will prove the greatest
challange, but that grain of sand in your boot that will bring you down.

Dave Walls
65 lla 88  

------------------------------

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Subject: FW: Found a gem but what kind?
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:44:04 -0800

>Hi There!
>Since I also live in Victoria, I'd be more that happy to help you idenitify
>the beast!
>I'm presently rebuiliding a '61 SWB in my garage.

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 55 lines)]
>Internet rknox@horizon.bc.ca
>==============================================================

------------------------------

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Subject: Freelander vs Cherokee vs RAV4
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:01:48 -0800

Interesting test in Decebers CAR magazine comparing the Freelander to
the Jeep Cherokee & Totota RAV 4.

They seem to like it, saying that it does well what it is supposed to
do...capabilities right between the Cherokee & RAV4.

They call it land Rover's lifestyle-heavy soft-roader.  I like that
term.

Paul.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:55:39 -0500
From: "Robert A. Virzi" <rvirzi@gte.com>
Subject: re: EAST COAST ROVER

... Major invective hyberbole from Ben N. deleted ...

"MIKE HOW COME EVERY TIME YOU GET ON THE NET YOU DRAW FIRE?"
-BENJAMIN G.
NEWMAN

Gee. Could be because you're waiting in the bushes loaded for Bear? Why not
give it a break unless you have something new to add?		-Bob

GTE Labs, MS-38            rvirzi@gte.com         voice: +1 617.466.2881
40 Sylvan Rd                                        fax: +1.617.466.4035
Waltham, MA, USA  02254

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:22:28 +0100
From: Adrian Redmond <121407237875@tele.dk>
Subject: Frames (no LR content)

(also sent to Bill Adams)

Is there anyone on the list who knows how to write HTML in frames? what
HTML editors (WYSIWYG) can handle this?

Words of wisdom welcomed warmly...

Adrian Redmond

---------------------------------------------------
CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
---------------------------------------------------
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 76 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)	channel6denmark@hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:44:21 -0500
From: Mike Johnson <johnsonm@borg.com>
Subject: Re: Frames (no LR content)

Adrian Redmond wrote:

> Is there anyone on the list who knows how to write HTML in frames? what
> HTML editors (WYSIWYG) can handle this?
> Words of wisdom welcomed warmly...
> Adrian Redmond

hi Adrian,

if you are using a computer, take a look at 

http://sunsite.auc.dk/tucows/htmlbeginner95.html
http://sunsite.auc.dk/tucows/htmledit95.html

or if you are using a Mac, look at
http://sunsite.auc.dk/tucows/mac/htmleditmac.html

As you can see they are all Danish sites and they have several different
kinds for free.

-- 
end
Mike Johnson
johnsonm@borg.com
http://www.borg.com/~johnsonm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:55:56 -0800 (PST)
From: gpool@pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: Balancing Land-Rover Steel Wheels

Peter said:

>	Is their a way to straighten bent wheels.  The rims on all these wheels
>are straight and look good with no sign of abuse whatsoever.  Apparently
>the centers are bent or were assembled improperly.  
>	Funny thing is that I have run all these wheels on my rover at one time
>or another and there was no problem.  Any one have a clue???  I am going to
>take the rims to another shop and get a second opinion.

Make sure that the tire shop uses a lug-pattern adapter, rather than a
center-hole adapter to mount the wheels on the balancing machine.  I've been
told that the steel LR wheel center is not reliable for this purpose, even
if the machine has an adapter big enough to fit the opening.

Unfortunately, I was told this about two days after I'd just had mine done
and had been told about the same thing you were told.  So I'd wasted my
money.  The ones I was having balanced are custom wheels, with 8" rims
welded to cut-down stock Land-Rover 15" centers.  I got them second-hand but
was told that they were built by Dick Cepek when he still did that sort of
thing.  I expect that they were built properly.

Cheers,

Granny

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:53:17 +0200
From: Paul Oxley <paul@adventures.co.za>
Subject: Re: Frames (no LR content)

Adrian Redmond wrote:

> (also sent to Bill Adams)
> Is there anyone on the list who knows how to write HTML in frames? what
> HTML editors (WYSIWYG) can handle this?
> Words of wisdom welcomed warmly...
> Adrian Redmond

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 22 lines)]
> HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)    channel6denmark@hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------

Hi Adrian,

The best HTML editor, for frames or non-frames environments, is Windows
Notepad. Once you understand how HTML works you can fine tune to a far
higher degree using notepad than with any paint-by-numbers kit. Get a basic
HTML command reference and play from there. Another major plus about
Notepad is you can open a trillion of them at once.

Regards

Paul Oxley
AfricanAdrenalin, your online African adventure specialists
http://AfricanAdrenalin.co.za & http://AfricanAdrenalin.com
into Africa adventures, your African adventure webzine
http://Adventures.co.za

------------------------------

From: DONOHUEPE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:17:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:   The Land Rover Owner Da...

get lro digest 971205 donohuepe@aol.com

------------------------------

From: RykRover <RykRover@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:00:47 EST
Subject: Re: Mass Apology

Mike, I`m glad your not giving in this time. I look forward to your knowledge,
Rdgs , Rick Valentino

Ps. this is a list for learning and lr questions , so i think it`s time to
lighten up on the personality nonsense.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:56:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn@ricochet.net>
Subject: ECR stealing *my* thunder!

Hey!  This is *my* flamefest!  I was trying to work my way up from creep to
a**hole (and somebody suggested I was already a bellybutton!) and along
comes the ECR nonsense to steal my unglory.  Dang! 

I guess I'll just have to get someone to ship their vehicle 3000 miles to me
to fill it with my super-special ultra-liberal left-coast
san-francisco-style RoverGas (tm).  

Gee, if I don't get enough attention, I might just hafta start sending
personal messages to people telling them that their PC/Mac sucks.  

P.S., The brits did make computers -- Anyone remember the Sinclair ZX81?  Or
Amstrad (I've got two Amstrads (and another coming from Oz) in my collection
and would love a Sinclair QL!)

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:56:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn@ricochet.net>
Subject: Mike's Coil Conversions

At 06:05 PM 12/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>I have no idea who this Mike Smith guy is but he is anoying.
>Why doesnt he just give up. This is very anoying to us who dont give a Sh*t.
 
Actually, Mike didn't start it...  A couple of disgruntled customers did.
Mike was just participating when they started up the old threads about his
company.

>BTW I did look at his web site.  Did you see the cost of the coil
>conversion $6500.  What the hell is that. 
 
Well, from the name, I would guess it would be taking your old body off your
frame, replacing the leaf springs with coil springs (ala RR/Disco/Def) and
putting the body back on.  I don't know if a new frame is included.  Not
cheap, but if you haven't got that kind of money, do it yourself or suffer
the leaf springs.  

(At $75/hour, (and guessing $500 for parts) that's 80 hours of work.  Maybe
a bit much, but you also gotta realize he's got development time to recoup.
How much time would you (or some other mechanic) spend to figure out and do
such a conversion?)

P.S., I don't know Mike Smith, never shipped my rover to him, but I do run a
business and have a higher percentage of disgruntled customers (1/8 or so)
so I understand how that can happen.  Plus, I've worked my way up to Creep
on this list without even working on anyone's LR!  8^)

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

From: CAPT PAYNE <CAPTPAYNE@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:38:33 EST
Subject: Re: New Rover Owner

to THX, Charles
I have a similar problem with my 94 D90.  The first click on the heater seems
to work
on forced air flow, not the fan.  It never bothered me.
By the way, just bought a new hard top for my D90.  If you know anyone who
needs
a full softtop in good shape, no reasonable offer refused.

Don
captpayne@aol.com
94 D90

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:27:21 -0400
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: ECR stealing *my* thunder!

Uncle Roger wrote:
> Hey!  This is *my* flamefest!  I was trying to work my way up from creep to
> a**hole (and somebody suggested I was already a bellybutton!) and along
> comes the ECR nonsense to steal my unglory.  Dang!
> I guess I'll just have to get someone to ship their vehicle 3000 miles to me
> to fill it with my super-special ultra-liberal left-coast
> san-francisco-style RoverGas (tm).

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 20 lines)]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
> Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
But what I want to know, Uncle Roger, is did they leak oil?
   John and Muddy ( Who is never called any derogatory body part)
   Ps ECR do install new frames in their coil conversion

------------------------------

From: BRITISHNW <BRITISHNW@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:39:25 EST
Subject: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

SALE’    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORATION.
REBUILT ENGINE, GEARBOX, DRIVELINE, NEW OVERDRIVE, CARBUTETTER, DISTRIBUTOR,
ALTERNATOR, STARTER,  RADIALS, SPRINGS, SHOCKS,  FUEL/OIL/WATER PUMPS, GAS
TANK,  RADIATOR. PAINT, ROOFRACK,  SEATS &  INTERIOR ..  $14,000.00 DELIVERED.
SOUND LIKE THE PERFECT VEHICLE ?   WHILE THIS DESCRIPTION IS FUNDAMENTALLY
"ACCURATE", OUR CLIENT HAS SPENT ALMOST $12,000.00 CORRECTING THE PROBLEMS
WITH  THIS RECENTLY PURCHASED LAND-ROVER. COULD YOU PREDICT THAT THIS LAND-
ROVER WOULD TURN INTO A $26,000.00 NIGHTMARE? OUR 350-PAGE FULLY ILLUSTRATED
PROSPECTIVE OWNER’S  INFORMATION  KIT, PROVIDES A  VETERAN LAND-ROVER
PROFESSIONAL’S COMPREHENSIVE ANALYSIS OF THE INTELLIGENT AND ACCURATE WAY TO
EVALUATE AND PURCHASE A SECOND-HAND LAND-ROVER.  4,000+ SATISFIED CUSTOMERS
TO DATE.     KIT BECOMES A RESTORATION GUIDELINE AFTER PURCHASE OF VEHICLE.
INCLUDES OUR 38-PAGE CARS & 115-PAGE PARTS CATALOGUE. $60.00 POSTPAID. BRITISH
NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512.
360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:11:34 -0500 (EST)
From: kelliott@intranet.ca (Keith Elliott)
Subject: Re: Mike's Coil Conversions

>>BTW I did look at his web site.  Did you see the cost of the coil
>>conversion $6500.  What the hell is that. 
>Well, from the name, I would guess it would be taking your old body off your
>frame, replacing the leaf springs with coil springs (ala RR/Disco/Def) and
>putting the body back on.  I don't know if a new frame is included.  Not
>cheap, but if you haven't got that kind of money, do it yourself or suffer
>the leaf springs.  
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 14 lines)]
>How much time would you (or some other mechanic) spend to figure out and do
>such a conversion?)

I could be wrong here but from the description on the ECR web site you also
get D90 axels, disk brakes and all the related hardware.

Keith

1961 Series II 88"
Ottawa

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:08:19 -0800
From: Todd_Wilson@ccmail.columbia.com (Todd Wilson)
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

     Wait..................
     
     let me get my nomex suit on.
     
     OK, go ahead and flame away.  Or should that be FLAME AWAY!
     
     tew

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
> Subject: Land Rover Buyer's Kit
> Author:  BRITISHNW <BRITISHNW@aol.com> at Internet

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 27 lines)]
> NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512. 
> 360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 17:22:35
From: David Kurzman <kurzman@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

>SALE’    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORATION.
(snip)
>NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512.
>360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970. 

This oughta be good. I KNOW that some listers have some stories about this
N.W. guy. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:39:11 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (East Coast Rover Co.)
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

>SALE=ED    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORATI=
ON.
>INCLUDES OUR 38-PAGE CARS & 115-PAGE PARTS CATALOGUE. $60.00 POSTPAID. BRIT=
ISH
>NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512.
>360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970.

Cool! Someone else who is going to get some sh*t! instead of me. ;-)
I remember all the "non commercial" flames a year ago as well!
Sorry Uncle Rog, I'll let you have the next go round! :-)

Best to all, have a good weekend!

=46rom: Mike Smith,  EAST COAST ROVER CO.
*Land Rover and Vintage 4X4 Specialists*
21 Tolman Road, Warren, ME (USA) 04864
207.594.8086 phone  207.594.8120 fax
http://www.eastcoastrover.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:16:38 +0100
From: Adrian Redmond <121407237875@tele.dk>
Subject: Re: ECR stealing *my* thunder!

I have an original Sinclair Cambridge calculator from 1973 - complete
with red led display - +-/* and no % - it cost a fortune back then and
had no error buffer, you could run the batteries flat by asking it to
calculate 0.0 / 0.1

Should be in a museum I guess..

Adrian Redmond

---------------------------------------------------
CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
---------------------------------------------------
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 76 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)	channel6denmark@hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:18:09 +0100
From: Adrian Redmond <121407237875@tele.dk>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

It would be easier to read if you didn't SHOUT - might even sell better
:-)

BRITISHNW wrote:
> SALE’    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORATION.
> REBUILT ENGINE, GEARBOX, DRIVELINE, NEW OVERDRIVE, CARBUTETTER, DISTRIBUTOR,
> ALTERNATOR, STARTER,  RADIALS, SPRINGS, SHOCKS,  FUEL/OIL/WATER PUMPS, GAS
> TANK,  RADIATOR. PAINT, ROOFRACK,  SEATS &  INTERIOR ..  $14,000.00 DELIVERED.
> SOUND LIKE THE PERFECT VEHICLE ?   WHILE THIS DESCRIPTION IS FUNDAMENTALLY
> "ACCURATE", OUR CLIENT HAS SPENT ALMOST $12,000.00 CORRECTING THE PROBLEMS
> WITH  THIS RECENTLY PURCHASED LAND-ROVER. COULD YOU PREDICT THAT THIS LAND-
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 17 lines)]
> NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512.
> 360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970.

-- 
Adrian Redmond

---------------------------------------------------
CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
---------------------------------------------------
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 76 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)	channel6denmark@hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:40:42 +0100
From: Adrian Redmond <121407237875@tele.dk>
Subject: Re: Mike's Coil Conversions and Rovering as a business

Uncle Roger wrote:
P.S., I don't know Mike Smith, never shipped my rover to him, but I do
run a business and have a higher percentage of disgruntled customers
(1/8 or so) so I understand how that can happen.

I agree on this point - here we all are, extolling the virtues of the
individualist solution to motoring (well it used to be called motoring)
and we expect guys like Mike to have the economic, technical and
business solidity of a major corporation.

The fact is, that running your own business (which i also do) or trading
with one, involves certain compromises - and certain advantages - don't
expect the small business to have the economic resources which allow
other corporations, who make just as many mistakes, to "buy" an image
-and don't expect the major corporations , despite all their wealth and
flocks of lawyers, to have the sme morality as the "mom-and-pop"
operations.

Let's face it, most small businesses are run by people who ended up
running a business as it's the only way in the western world of getting
paid for doing your hobby - I run a tv company - not because I am at all
interested in the art of business management, financial control,
marketing, building my own computer network, answering the phone,
studying the accounts or helping the government administer the slice of
my action which it needs to pay the people who one day might put me out
of business, but because I still believe, that the 10 days spent in the
office are usually outweighed by the rewards of one or two days taking
the camera out of the box, starting the rover, and making films.

If you go into a deal expecting the have to sue people, then choose
suppliers on the basis of their "sueability" or "threatenability" - if
you want a personal service, based on personal commitment, personal
judgement, and personal effort, you must be prepared to encounter
personal weakness sometimes.

As a european it would probably vbe far to easy for me to say that this
is an "American phenomena" - the art of always looking for someone to
sue, fine, punish or pillorise - so I won't - but the thought, just for
one short moment, did possibly cross my mind... (Glad I didn't say it
though - even in jest!)

I hate it when i make mistakes, but I know that running abusiness,
following my heart and my ambition, often leads me into promising more
than I can fulfill - usually i am able to manouver my way around it,
usually by investing more time and energy in solving the problem, and
creating yet another loss which i must put down to experience -
hopefully gaining knowledge, confidence, experience, and a few loyal
customers into the bargain - but I have sometimes run into difficulties
which i cannot blow away by throwing a few extra resources at the
problem - then I just have to look the guy in the eye and admit my
failings - sometimes it wins respect, often it wins a prize-tirade of
abuse.

I don't know Mike from Adam - and I don't even know Adam. But let's face
it, anyone who tries to make a living restoring old rovers, and selling
them to folks like us, can hardly be categorised as a fat-cat
opportunist. OK - so a few deals turn sour. That's life - move on.

I don't necessarily expect every mechanic to be better, to know more
about a rover than a typical member of this list - if we are typical of
the "pool of knowledge" about rovers - and if we're all so perfect -
then what is the reason we write to each other? The fact is, that we
have all set ourselves goals when working on our trucks, which by the
time we pull the junk apart and spread it over the workshop floor (or
drive, kitchen floor, bathroom floor) we discover that we have
underestimated the time, tools, money, parts, cunning, determination -
and sometimes - luck which is necessary to put the whole shabang
together again and achieve the result. Why should a professional be any
different  if his angle on the business is the same as ours?

I am glad for the flame war - like most of the tiradeal disagreement
which punctuates the more mundane (though equally vital) discussions
about imports, paint colours, free-wheel-hubs, and J**p history on this
list, it serves to remind us of the more "human" aspects of our
obsession.

Let's stay human guys - our cars like us that way...

Adrian Redmond

---------------------------------------------------
CHANNEL 6 TELEVISION DENMARK       (Adrian Redmond)
Foerlevvej 6  Mesing  DK-8660  Skanderborg  Denmark
---------------------------------------------------
telephone (office)		    +45 86 57 22 66
telephone (home)		    +45 86 57 22 64
telefacsimile / data		    +45 76 57 24 46
mobile GSM (EFP unit)		    +45 40 74 75 64
mobile GSM (admin)		    +45 40 50 22 66
mobile NMT			    +45 30 86 75 66
e-mail			     channel6@post2.tele.dk
HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)	channel6denmark@hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:49:55 -0800
From: "Con P. Seitl" <seitl@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Mike's Coil Conversions and Rovering as a business

Adrian Redmond wrote:
> Uncle Roger wrote:
> P.S., I don't know Mike Smith, never shipped my rover to him, but I do
> run a business and have a higher percentage of disgruntled customers
> (1/8 or so) so I understand how that can happen.
> I agree on this point - here we all are, extolling the virtues of the
> individualist solution to motoring (well it used to be called motoring)
> and we expect guys like Mike to have the economic, technical and
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 94 lines)]
> HoTMaiL (www.e-mail)    channel6denmark@hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------

 Thankyou Rev. Redmond.  I wish I had that in my back pocket when dealing 
with the some odd customers I screwed up on! :-)

 Maybe TV isn't your calling!

Con Seitl
1973 III 88 "Pig"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:42:21 -0500
From: Gavin Smith <GavinFSmith@compuserve.com>
Subject: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Message text written by INTERNET:Land-Rover-Owner@playground.sun.com

And now the question:  Will someone clear up the mystery of the Fairey
overdrive dipstick mark - does it signify max level or min level?  =

TIA,

Jeff Jackson
73 SIII 88" =

Waterford, CT

Have I got the answer for you!

My O/D makes oil!!!!!!

It is always well up the dipstick and there are signs that some has been
escaping from the breather. But then on further inspection the transfer
case is always low. I suspect that the transfer box is pressurising and
blowing oil into the O/D (seeing as the transfer doesn't have a breather)=
,
or the seals in the O/D unit are stuffed. Mind you, it's done this ever
since the O/D was installed so I suppose I should have bailed up the
retailer I bought  the O/D from at the time!!

Any thoughts on the pressurising versus stuffed seals would be welcome

Gavin Smith
ZL2ACT
66 88" 202 cu in Holden
New Zealand

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:54:03 -0800
From: Thomas Spoto <tspoto@az.com>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

David Kurzman wrote:
> >SALE’    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORATION.
> (snip)
> >NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512.
> >360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970.
> This oughta be good. I KNOW that some listers have some stories about this
> N.W. guy.

Mr. Kellogg is well known on the mendo list.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:22:16 -0800
From: Thomas Spoto <tspoto@az.com>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

Thomas Spoto wrote:
> David Kurzman wrote:
> > >SALE’    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORATION.
> > (snip)
>          [ truncated by lro-lite (was 9 lines)]
> > This oughta be good. I KNOW that some listers have some stories about this
> > N.W. guy.

Some how my statement about the mendo_recce list and Land Rover N.W.
did'nt go thru the first time. He has been well discussed on the list
suffice it to say.

------------------------------

From: CIrvin1258 <CIrvin1258@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:18:24 EST
Subject: Series IIA gearbox case...

Anybody out there have one? I kinda killed mine yesterday. Don't know what
caused it, but I had an increasing noise in 1st/reverse, which culminated in
the truck deciding not to back out of my driveway. I parked it, got out, and
found all the gearbox oil pouring out of a crack about 2 inches long, on the
bottom of the case!

I'm being exciled to N.Y. on Monday, and Thursday eve I'm going to Boston for
a day, or two, then back to N.Y., and back to L.A., so if there's a spare case
there that's empty, and it's owner doesn't want it, and it's inexpensive, let
me know. The alternative is to get a rebuilt 'box from the U.K., BUT, after
having purchased a Steyr USR, I don't really want to use plastic again, for a
LONG while!

Email me privately, if anybody has one, and please, use the above header - I
still get lots of junk email, so if it isn't familiar, I ignore it.

Thanks,
Charles

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:26:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Todd <tad@selway.umt.edu>
Subject: Belleview electric winch? 

Did someone really mention the belleview ellectric winch in Dec. 5?  I
can't belleve it, after looking thru 726 or so winch postings that had
absolutely nothing to do with this particular winch... Who manufactured
said winches, are they reliable, can you still find replacement parts,
blah, blah, you get the point. If anyone has info about these hulks please
drop me a line.

Todd Ondick - tad@selway.umt.edu

'65IIA88" (I'm still trying out names, maybe leaky, or something cute like
	   squeeky) 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:47:23 -0800 (PST)
From: jimallen@onlinecol.com (Jim Allen)
Subject: Re: Belleview electric winch?

 The Belleview winch is the predecessor to the Warn. A few parts may still
be available from Warn but please continue to breath. It was one of the
first electric winches for 4x4s and had a great reputation. It's an
ancestor to the now legendary Warn 8274.

        JIm Allen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 21:01:23 -0500
From: landrovr@usaor.net (Jon R. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Belleview electric winch?

>Did someone really mention the belleview ellectric winch in Dec. 5?  I
>can't belleve it, after looking thru 726 or so winch postings that had
>absolutely nothing to do with this particular winch... Who manufactured
>said winches, are they reliable, can you still find replacement parts,
>blah, blah, you get the point. If anyone has info about these hulks please

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 16 lines)]
>'65IIA88" (I'm still trying out names, maybe leaky, or something cute like
>           squeeky)

Do you have a Belleview, or are you thinking of buying one?
Damn reliable, and powerful.
What gear reduction is it???
Don't know about parts cause mine has never broke.
Mine won't hold oil so I fill it all the time and watch it drip.
Covers the steering and tie rods so they don't rust.
Buy it or use it
You'll be happy

Jon R. Humphrey
and The young Gentleman named;
" Buddzo "
"Fort Pitt Land Rover Group"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:39:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn@ricochet.net>
Subject: British Computers

At 05:27 PM 12/5/97 -0400, you wrote:
>But what I want to know, Uncle Roger, is did they leak oil?

Not that I've noticed, but I haven't filled 'em up yet.  (Although, the
PPC640 I have does have a sorta 90w-colored stain in the battery area... 8^)

>   Ps ECR do install new frames in their coil conversion
 
I'd ask how much a frame costs, but then we'd get a couple dozen copies of
an answer...  8^)

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:39:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

At 05:39 PM 12/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>SALE=ED    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL=
 RESTORATION.
>>INCLUDES OUR 38-PAGE CARS & 115-PAGE PARTS CATALOGUE. $60.00 POSTPAID.=
 BRITISH
>>NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512.
>>360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970.

>Cool! Someone else who is going to get some sh*t! instead of me. ;-)
>I remember all the "non commercial" flames a year ago as well!
>Sorry Uncle Rog, I'll let you have the next go round! :-)

I bow out in the face of a far more deserving target...  Good ol' Corn
Flakes has finally stepped out of the shadows (come on, y'all know he's been
on the list for ages) and boy, did he do it with a flash!  As I see it, his
mistakes include:

1) he's on AOL.  Everybody *loves* aol'ers.  (And he's sure helping their=
 rep.)
2) All caps.  Makes it *so* much easier to read.
3) Commercial content.  Boy, do we *love* adverts on this list!
4) Selling his "buyer's kit" to a list of "Land Rover *Owners*"? 

I'm sure others will be more than happy to light up their flamethrowers...
8^) 

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:55:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Spoto <tspoto@az.com>
Subject: Re: Belleview electric winch?

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Jim Allen wrote:

>  The Belleview winch is the predecessor to the Warn. A few parts may still
> be available from Warn but please continue to breath. It was one of the
> first electric winches for 4x4s and had a great reputation. It's an
> ancestor to the now legendary Warn 8274.
>         JIm Allen

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 12 lines)]
> ancestor to the now legendary Warn 8274.
>         JIm Allen
I have an early warn on my '72' 88" probably the same vintage. When I 
asked Warn about parts they said they stocked nothing for it. They did 
however send me a parts breakdown.  I had the motor rebuilt at an 
eletrical shop here in town, $100. Nothing else has needed work however.
The number stamped into my case is 5287 for what it's worth. Looks 
identical to the Belleview on a friends 109.

Tom Spoto

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:15:22 -0500
From: landrovr@usaor.net (Jon R. Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

>At 05:39 PM 12/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>SALE=CC    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORA=

TION.
>>>INCLUDES OUR 38-PAGE CARS & 115-PAGE PARTS CATALOGUE. $60.00 POSTPAID.
>>>BRITISH
>         [ truncated by lro-lite (was 7 lines)]
>>I remember all the "non commercial" flames a year ago as well!
>>Sorry Uncle Rog, I'll let you have the next go round! :-)
>I bow out in the face of a far more deserving target...  Good ol' Corn
>Flakes has finally stepped out of the shadows (come on, y'all know he's bee=

n
>on the list for ages) and boy, did he do it with a flash!  As I see it, his
>mistakes include:
>1) he's on AOL.  Everybody *loves* aol'ers.  (And he's sure helping their r=
>>I remember all the "non commercial" flames a year ago as well!
ep.)
>2) All caps.  Makes it *so* much easier to read.
>3) Commercial content.  Boy, do we *love* adverts on this list!
>4) Selling his "buyer's kit" to a list of "Land Rover *Owners*"?
>I'm sure others will be more than happy to light up their flamethrowers...
>8^)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
>Flakes has finally stepped out of the shadows (come on, y'all know he's bee=
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 14 lines)]
>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
>San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
.............................................................

Oh Fantastic and wonderful, goodie goodie goodie

It's almost Christmas Time.
A time to frolic in the new lain snow.(rover content)

When Santa stirs and lights his pipe,,, and elves clean up a years worth of
reindeer shit. And Ms Clause makes cocoa before the big trip.
And Rudolphio gets his battery cables cleaned. (rover content)

It's a wun' wun' wun'derful time of the year.

Clip/clop Clip/clop Clip/clop Clip///.............."MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBOD=
Y"

(flamethrower died cause of lack of butane & it might melt the new lain snow=
>3) Commercial content.  Boy, do we *love* adverts on this list!

PS I'm on your side Uncle Rog, but if you just look up in the sky at that
bright little light, you might remember that night in Canada, when the sky
was ablaze with wonder and beer and rover people drinking that beer.

      Jon R. Humphrey
with The young Gentleman named;
        " Buddzo "
     He rides *shotgun*
Early series IIA 109" Pick-up/
       and 3/4 canvas
 "Fort Pitt Land Rover Group"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 23:44:52 -0400
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Belleview electric winch?

LandRover offered the bellview winch as dealer installed option in the 
late 50s or early 60s and it came with a LandRover name plate. I have
only ever seen one with the plate still on and I can't remember the
exact wording but it was some thing like Land Rover winch by Belleville.
   Oh what a fund of totally useless trivia  I seem to be.
      John and Muddy ( has a Warn 8274 that is well Worn)Todd wrote:
> Did someone really mention the belleview ellectric winch in Dec. 5?  I
> can't belleve it, after looking thru 726 or so winch postings that had
> absolutely nothing to do with this particular winch... Who manufactured
> said winches, are they reliable, can you still find replacement parts,
> blah, blah, you get the point. If anyone has info about these hulks please
> drop me a line.

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
> '65IIA88" (I'm still trying out names, maybe leaky, or something cute like
>            squeeky)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:08:13 -0500 (EST)
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Back, again?

I was going to stay out of this, but Adrian Redmond started it. ;-)

>I am having some trouble with my temperature sensor in my SIII....

Same here, plus the fuel guage, though - curiously - not at the same time.  
Do both guages draw from the "voltage stabiliser" deep within the dash?  In 
the summer, the SIII would read hot when it seemed to be normal and 
occasionally it will 'spike' to near the hot zone and promptly return to 
normal - far faster than any sensor or actual change in coolant temp could 
occur.  Now the fuel guage seems to drift - getting a notch or two higher as 
the cabin warms up.  I kind of expected the voltage stabilizer to be a all- 
or-none proposition, but then this *is* Lucas....  Cheers

      *---"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                  | 
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
      |   "The oldest Rover-marque club in the Americas"   |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730    |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 757-622-7054 (Day) |
      |    757-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 757-622-7056    |
      |                                                    |
      *---1972 Series III 88"-----1996 Discovery SE-7(m)---*

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:08:17 -0500 (EST)
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Bearing numbers

David Cockey wrote:

>Does anyone know of a source who can provide custom bearing shells....

I don't know about "custom" but here are some 'American' part numbers.  All 
are for "standards", though.

Crankshaft:     Federal Mogul 6061m or AE B4324SA
Camshaft:       AE C4044S
Con Rod:        Fed. Mogul 65190cp or AE M3275SA
Thrust Washer:  AE S4575L  (again, standard only)
Small end bush: AE S4575L

These are "old" numbers, in that they may have been superceeded by now.  The 
nice thing about "modern" bearing numbers is that the part number defines 
the bearing size, or so I'm told by out local bearingplace (though I haven't 
figured out how). In theory, Timkin will cross right over to SKFs.  Cheers

      *---"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                  | 
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
      |   "The oldest Rover-marque club in the Americas"   |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730    |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 757-622-7054 (Day) |
      |    757-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 757-622-7056    |
      |                                                    |
      *---1972 Series III 88"-----1996 Discovery SE-7(m)---*

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 22:21:50 -0600
From: car4doc <car4doc@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Belleview electric winch?

Hi All,
 With all of this talk about winches history has remianed me that I
still need one.  If any one has a 8274 Used & working? they would be
looking to sell I am looking for one.  
Regards, 
Rob Davis_chicago

------------------------------

From: robot1@juno.com
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:38:40 -0600
Subject: Dot4

Here's my stupid question for the week: Is Castrol/Lucas/Girling the ONLY
Dot4 usable in LR brake systems, or is any dot4 satisfactory? For
instance, is the chemical composition of one Dot4 different from another
Dot4, or is chemical composition what separates Dot4 from dot3 from Dot5?

Jus' wunnerin.

Mark Hardig
1967 109 "sheila"
1967 Winchester
1911 Colt

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:22:39 -0400
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Back, again?

Alexander P. Grice wrote:
> I was going to stay out of this, but Adrian Redmond started it. ;-)
> >I am having some trouble with my temperature sensor in my SIII....
> Same here, plus the fuel guage, though - curiously - not at the same time.
> Do both guages draw from the "voltage stabiliser" deep within the dash?  In
> the summer, the SIII would read hot when it seemed to be normal and
> occasionally it will 'spike' to near the hot zone and promptly return to

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
> the cabin warms up.  I kind of expected the voltage stabilizer to be a all-
> or-none proposition, but then this *is* Lucas....  Cheers
They do indeed feed fromthe same voltage stabilizer.If you take a
voltage reading at the temp sender it should read 10 volts with the wire
off the sender. if not then summat strange is going on. It might be a
good idea to check the charging voltage too if that is erratic it might
have an effect on the gauges.
   John and Muddy ( who isn't as erratic as the driver)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:09:17 -0500
From: Brian Cramer <defender@mail.uscom.com>
Subject: Re: 1968 Series 2A engine stalling

Check your ignition points. I had a similar problem that was solved with a
new set on points.

At 09:57 AM 12/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I have recently finished rebuilding a 1968 Series 2A 88" , 2.25 litre gas 
>Rover.  I am experiencing the following problem and am stumped as to 
>what the solution might be.  It starts and runs fine, until it reaches a 
>certain temperature, at which point it dies (usually around 10-15 
>minutes).  Once it cools down, it will run great for another 10 minutes.  It 
>will always start up right after, but as soon as any throttle is applied it 

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 16 lines)]
>Roland Klein
>1968 Series IIA 88" Station Wagon
Cheers,

Brian Cramer
(888)434-4678 office
(609)665-4451 office fax
(609)273-9708 home
'94 D90 (#1251)
'90 RR County
'70 IIa Lightweight
'89 Range Rover (For Sale: $10,995 OBO)
'70 IIa SWB (For Sale: $3,295 OBO)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:11:13 -0800
From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

Uncle Roger wrote:

> >>INCLUDES OUR 38-PAGE CARS & 115-PAGE PARTS CATALOGUE. $60.00 POSTPAID. BRITISH

> >I remember all the "non commercial" flames a year ago as well!
> >Sorry Uncle Rog, I'll let you have the next go round! :-)
> I bow out in the face of a far more deserving target...  I'm sure others will be
> more than happy to light up their flamethrowers...8^)

Ah shucks.. Roger... just when I was wondering if you'd make the big leap from
belly button to "Flaming a**hole"  :)

BTW... CHUCKIE... hit the caps key.

cheers,

Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:12:53 -0800
From: Granville Pool <gpool@pacific.net>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

Jeremy wrote:

>Ah shucks.. Roger... just when I was wondering if you'd make the big leap
from
>belly button to "Flaming a**hole"  :)

Ooooo...

>BTW... CHUCKIE... hit the caps key.

No use telling CharlieSpamKelloggSpam about his SHOUTING because he's
posted this without having subscribed to the list.

Cheers,

Granny

------------------------------

From: DONOHUEPE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:19:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Checking Tire Pressure is Good

Russ Wilson
Fort Pitt Land Rover Group
Pittsburgh, Pa.

Russ:

On Thursday, you inquired where (at some considerable distance from home)
you could get the air pressure checked in the tires of your Land Rover.
There are two or three decent mechanics who could perform this chore for you
in (or near) the People's Republic of Boulder.

Be sure to instruct your mechanic to change the air in your tires.

Paul Donohue
1965 Leak Rover
Denver

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:31:45 -0900
From: "Deanna D. Sitter" <lani@alaska.net>
Subject: Bent Wheels

Peter Ogilvie wrote about a problem with bent wheels that I may have
the answer to, at least how they became bent.  I used to work in a tire
shop for a few years and ran across this problem with some 16" wheels I
bought for my 88.  The later model 5.5" wide 16" wheels use a reverse
drop center.  By this I mean that the deep groove in the rim which
allows the tire to fit on is located closer to the backside of the rim
than the front. A conventional tire machine has a post in the center. 
The wheel is placed flat on the machine with the post sticking through
the center hole of the wheel.  A cone shaped nut is then screwed down
over the post to hold the wheel down.  At the left of the machine is a
dismounting shoe which pushes the bead up off the backside of the rim
when the machine is activated.  This is the problem.  Because the rim is
so narrow and the drop center is located toward the backside of the rim
the dismounting shoe hooks into the drop center and tries to push the
rim up off the machine.  Of course because the cone nut is holding the
rim down it bends the center section of the rim.  I hope I explained
this in an understandable way.  It is much easier to see with a bare rim
set on the machine but not clamped down.

The rims can be straightened but it takes some work and is even harder
to explain.  Basically you have to hammer on the center section to
return it to a flat condition.  One option might be to have a machine
shop look at it.  perhaps a press might be a nice controlled way to do
it.  On a more positive note while I was able to do a very acceptable
job of initial straightening they have actually improved over the years
from simply being clamped to the vehicle.  The worst one only has 8 oz.
of weight with a 235/85R16 on it now.

The moral is...make sure the shop doing your tires has a rim clamp type
of tire machine.  Most decent shops have these as they are much kinder
to alloy rims.

Tim Sitter
Peters Creek, Alaska

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 22:44:29 -0800
From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

Granny or Uncle Roger, 

Would you mind explaining the Corn Flakes thing?  I don't get it.
[Granny mentioned Corn Flakes in an OOB conversation we were having today, and
UR mentioned it again].

BTW, In case the non-NADA or NADA-but-not-west-coast people haven't gotten this
yet, British Northwest is not reeeeal popurlar in these (N. Cal to Seattle)
parts.  

C

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:33:13 -1000
From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Subject: Re: Bent Wheels

Aloha:
	I live in Kailua-Kona which is pretty much at the end of the known world
so going to another tire shop is not an easy thing.  Have gone through all
two shops here in Kailua so went 90 Miles to Hilo today to have Lex Brodie
tires have a go.  Any one familiar with the Islands is familiar with Lex
Brodie.  They pretty much told me what you all have reiterated.  The Lex
Brodie guy banged on the center section for about 15 minutes and was able
to get the wheel to run reasonably true and then he balanced it.  20
minutes and $10.  Honest people who know what they are up to.  Next time
you have your Rover in the Islands, give them your business.  They stock BF
Goodrich mud terrains.
	A word to the wise!!!  Be careful when getting tires mounted because the
wrong machine bends the center section.  I am going to bite the bullet and
buy some tire irons and do the job myself from now on.  I should have done
this with my last flat and would have paid for all the equipment by now.
It would also have saved time.
	A big Mahalo Nui Loa to all those who responded to my inquiry on bent rims.
Peter

At 08:31 PM 12/5/97 -0900, you wrote:
>Peter Ogilvie wrote about a problem with bent wheels that I may have
>the answer to, at least how they became bent.  I used to work in a tire
>shop for a few years and ran across this problem with some 16" wheels I
>bought for my 88.  The later model 5.5" wide 16" wheels use a reverse
>drop center.  By this I mean that the deep groove in the rim which
>allows the tire to fit on is located closer to the backside of the rim

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 39 lines)]
>Tim Sitter
>Peters Creek, Alaska

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 20:52:27 -1000
From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Subject: Re: Northwest Land Rover Land Rover Buyer's Kit

	Years ago I went to see his operation.  He ran a teaser ad in the Seattle
Papers that I responded to.  Something about a 109 pickup for $2000 or the
like.  I went down and looked at what he had and came to the conclusion
that he was making money off other peoples ignorance.  The 109 pickup was a
diesel that hadn't run for years, had a bunged up body, what you could see
of it, because he was using the car as his dumpster.  
	He had several other rovers in the process of rebuild.  All were very
rusty.  One that stuck in my mind had a perforated fire wall and spring
hangers that had rusted off.  He tried to tell me it was an AZ car.  I
don't know how he did his rebuilds but that one needed a new frame and fire
wall.  If he did a patch job instead of a replace, I feel sorry for the
person who bought it.  Anyway he wanted $4,000 or more, as is, for that
109.  This was back in the days when I was turning down the opportunity to
purchase running 88's for under $500 and could have bought a restored 109
for $1,500.  I thought he was a little overpriced and didn't have the
conscience to admit it to himself.  
	Apparently he hasn't changed.  He had the b***s to place an ad for his
"buyer's kit" at only $60 and one of his rebuilts on the Rover's North
bulletin board.  Talk about cheek.
	Apparently he is doing something right as he is still in business,
however.  Maybe there are just too many Microsoft Millionaires in the PNW.
While I was there this past summer I saw a nice looking 1964-65 pickup with
full canvas top.  Tried to find the owner but found a neighbor who said the
owner paid $20,000 for it.  It looked stock and in good condition but was
not pristine and had enough oil leaks to suggest that it wasn't newly
rebuilt, don't think it had an O/D or winch either.  The owner was rehabing
a house in the neighborhood that she had just bought for something around
$200,000, a new high for the area.  The neighbor said she was dropping
another $300,000 into the rehab.  Something I don't doubt as part of the
rehab was pouring an entire new foundation and basement under the brick
house.  Any way the economics were that she would have a $500,000 home in a
$175,000 neighborhood.  I guess it makes $20,000 for a 109 a good deal.
The strange part is that she wasn't from California but a local.
Aloha Peter

At 05:22 PM 12/5/97, you wrote:
>>SALE’    1973 LAND-ROVER STATION-WAGON.  COMPLETE  PROFESSIONAL RESTORATION.
>(snip)
>>NORTHWEST LAND-ROVER.  1043 KAISER ROAD, OLYMPIA,  WA 98512.
>>360-866-2254/866-1232.  OR BRITISHNW@AOL.COM.  FAX 360-866-6970. 

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
>This oughta be good. I KNOW that some listers have some stories about this
>N.W. guy. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:40:26 -0800
From: Thomas Spoto <tspoto@az.com>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Buyer's Kit

Christopher H. Dow wrote:
> Granny or Uncle Roger,
> Would you mind explaining the Corn Flakes thing?  I don't get it.
> [Granny mentioned Corn Flakes in an OOB conversation we were having today, and
> UR mentioned it again].
> BTW, In case the non-NADA or NADA-but-not-west-coast people haven't gotten this

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
> parts.
> C

The gentleman in question is named Kellogg. Some who have dealt with him
have considered some of his business practices peculiar.  I'll let you
put it all together. 

I have purchased from him in the past when my normal source said a part
was no longer available. I had no complaints at the time. If you read
the mendo_recce archives you can find stories of others who have some
amusing and some frustrating stories to tell.

------------------------------

From: "Ron Beckett" <hillman@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: 3.54 diff question
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:01:07 +1100

nicotra@worldnet.att.net,Internet writes:
>I am going to call local salvage yards and try to find a set of RR diffs
>for my ser III. Does anybody know what Range Rover years will bolt right
>on to my axle?

A number on the list have commented that only early RR used 10 spline
diffs.  I guess it depends on what you mena by early.  My late-86 model has
10-spline diffs.  I checked 'cos I wanted to buy Mark Ritter's Lock Rite
he was selling for $200 but it is 24 spline and I'd have to get new axles
too.

Regards,

Ron Beckett
Emu Plains, NSW, Australia

'86 Range Rover 4.6L auto (The Last Aquila)
'71 Hillman Hunter Royal 660 1725cc manual
'67 Hillman Gazelle 1725cc auto
'67 Hillman Gazelle 1725cc manual

check my home page at 
http://www.users.bigpond.com/hillman for Hillman and Rover

------------------------------

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