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From: reynoldsg@tfn.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:18:03 -0500
Subject: Re: LROi Nov & Dec

Mike Johnson <johnsonm@borg.com> wrote:

> finally shows up friday,  then I Dec shows up yesterday.  I have 
> never gotten a copy delivered so late or so early ( Net 0 )

Apparantly they didn't print enough copies for those of us on this 
side of the pond and had to play catch up...

> I was kinda miffed when I was looking at Nov,  I may be out of line
> here,  But it kinda looked like a big ad for "Safari Gard".

Not only that, but the title of the article suggests that they are 
going to show you how to modify a standard Discovery into the XD 
model.  The reality is that they are telling you what stuff they 
decided to bolt onto their Disco.  The technical info on how the stuff 
bolts on was pretty much useless, especially considering how much 
space they gave it.  In the December issue, they describe (I think) 
installing the Safari Gard bumper/skid plate combo, but show pictures 
for the Rhino Guard skid plate.  The way that section was set up, it 
looks like the pictures should go with the text, but they don't.  This 
is one time I think I'm going to email them a complaint...

> I understand ARB gets a lot of press too,  but they do make 
> functional equipment, at a reasonable price.

Actually, I haven't seen an article on their bumpers in quite some 
time.

> Safari Gard, to me, just makes "bolt on technology" i.e. armor 
> plating, so BIG DEAL.  WHY ALL THE PRESS?  And why does their trendy 
> looking crap cost so damn much?

It's high quality stuff and limited production - therefore expensive.  
If you compare the price of their bumper without skid plate to an ARB 
bumper, it's not that much more.  Their rock sliders cost the same as 
Rhino rock sliders...

> I might be interested if they would incorporate some sort of 
> function,  like curb/stump feelers sticking out from their "Sliders" 
> ( OH YEAH,  THATS IT ).

:)

> As for me and my money,  I think I'll just spend mine on 90wt and 
> 7.62 shells for my AK-47.

Great - now we're likely to have another firearms flame fest :).

Jeff Reynolds
1995 Beluga Black Discovery
Rovers North Roof Rack
4 Hella Rallye 4000's
1 Hella Work Lamp

------------------------------

Subject: Re: You've got to be kidding
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 08:58:57 -0500
From: David Russell <David_R@mindspring.com>

On Dec 01, David Kurzman <kurzman@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>David Russell wrote: I came across the following at the Land Rover 
>>Exchange(http://lrx.com/): For Sale
>>1998 LR Defender 110  300Tdi 5door Station Wagon
>>Available January/February 1998...Title and registration not my 
responsibility

(snip)

>If you're worried about this type of transaction why draw attention to it 
>by posting the info on this mailing list? 

I think the list already knows that this is very risky and borderline 
illegal.

>If you love Land-Rovers, be cool.
>There's probably about 2 people in the US that would go to these lengths
>to get a 110 into the US. 

I think there are more than that.

>It'll probably end up costing $50,000-$60,000
>to get the thing on the road after the rich guy pays somebody $50 an
>hour to put it back together. ...Dave in Va. 

I thought this was a forum for all issues Land Rover and it's members 
were the best informed Rover enthusiasts anywhere. I feel that, because 
this issue pops up often, it's worth noting, that's all. 

I have received, as a result of my pretty _simple_ web site at least 5 
inquiries from people, who it was obvious new very little about Land 
Rovers. Their mis-information could lead them into a situation where they 
pay dearly for something like this. In addition, I have seen on other 
Rover-related web sites, discussion of this issue with no one ever 
knowing the current regulations and leading other people to believe that 
this type of importation was acceptable to the Fed. Correct me if I'm 
wrong, but the US Gov't does not look kindly on the illegal importation 
of vehicles.

>I strongly feel that people should mind their own business in these 
situations.

Please explain. I found this ad on a public web site, accessable by the 
entire world. I was simply soliciting other people's opinion's, in much 
the same way people ask about brush guards or locking differentials. I am 
just wondering if this type of transaction could eventually lead to a ban 
on all non-US-spec autos, regardless of age.

Cheers

David Russell
http://www.mindspring.com/~david_r
David_R@mindspring.com
1969 SIIA SWB (Pastel Green, 4-speed)
1997 SD (Oxford Blue, 5-speed)
1977 FJ40 (rust, 8-speed (hopefully still))

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:03:05 -0800
From: matt <nelsml73@snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu>
Subject: Wilks Willys Jeep based SI prototype

What does that thing look like?

I have a late willys that has been converted to a landrover type body
and supposedly came from britain after WW2 some time, Ive had no luck
identifying it so if someone can send me a pic of the earliest
prototypes I'd appreciate it...
Matt nelson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:15:22 -0800
From: matt <nelsml73@snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu>
Subject: Re: Wilks Willys Jeep based SI prototype

could someone post the transmition and transfer case ratios for say a
1965 s2a?  also how do you determine the end ratio
ie. tranny-transfer-diff..
add multiply ??? I can't remember and need the data to do some
comparisons...

thanks
matt

------------------------------

From: Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:25:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Wilks Willys Jeep based SI prototype

Matt,

Considering the original center-steer prototype was documented to have been
returned to a Jeep body and sold, I don't think you've got it...

The center-steer would be the identifier - if it's got the wheel in the
middle wonder of its origins....

                    ajr

------------------------------

From: Andy Phillips <AnPi@norsk-data.co.uk>
Subject: RE: You've got to be kidding
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:24:28 -0000

No I don't want another flame war so I'm going to be brief:
I agree with this because its very relevant to the Land Rover situation
in the USA. I say post it and see who replies. I find that if something
doesn't interest me or I don't know the answer to the question I just
delete the email as I can't help. That doesn't mean I'm constantly
deleting messages because I'm not interested, simply that I don't know a
lot about Land Rovers yet! If someone doesn't want to discuss this sort
of thing, then don't reply to it and use the email headers to reduce the
amount of email you read. I also believe that without actually wearing
their red underpants outside their trousers and leaping tall buildings
etc. the major contributors to this list are viewed as superheroes or
fonts of knowledge for all issues Land Rover. People need to be a bit
careful with their email . . . no-one wants to get into trouble but what
you say here may be taken literally by a newbie who gets into trouble
for it later. This is I think a valid issue which I can't help with
(being in the UK) but I'll be watching with interest. All flames to
someone else with asbestos underpants please,

Andy.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	David Russell [SMTP:David_R@mindspring.com]
> Sent:	Monday, December 01, 1997 1:59 PM
> To:	lro@playground.sun.com
> Subject:	Re: You've got to be kidding

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 75 lines)]
> 1997 SD (Oxford Blue, 5-speed)
> 1977 FJ40 (rust, 8-speed (hopefully still))

------------------------------

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 09:55:03 EST
Subject: Re: Wilks Willys Jeep based SI prototype

>I have a late willys that has been converted to a landrover type body
>and supposedly came from britain after WW2 some time, Ive had no luck
>identifying it so if someone can send me a pic of the earliest
>prototypes I'd appreciate it...
>Matt nelson

theres a picture in the back of the rovers north catalog, "identifying your 
land rover" section.

later
DaveB

------------------------------

From: CAPTPAYNE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:54:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Updated Website / November Newsletter

asanna:  knock it off.  the captain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:16:28
From: David Kurzman <kurzman@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: You've got to be kidding

I've taken this discussion to e-mail where it belongs. Best, Dave in Va.
'66 88 ragtop

------------------------------

From: Lodelane@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:41:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bearings

Recently I took my mother's car in for work and while killing time in the
waiting room, read thru one of the service trade magazines.  In it was an
announcement that T&N bearings of the UK has recently been bought out by
Federal Mogul.  Wonder if this will help in the interchange/substitution
situation when buying aftermarket bearings and seals.

------------------------------

From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:15:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: the "importation" of vehicles, 110s or otherwise

This is an issue that belongs on this list, as there are some people who
*are* qualified to answer the questions and clarify the issue here. I see
this topic as having a few sides to it, ie: there are those who say the
loophole exists, so use it (like tax dodgers, eh?) and there are those who
feel it jeopardizes the future importation of vehicles; there's people who've
probably done it and some who want to...

Personally, I think the issue is a small one and that the greater injustice
is the actual law that prohibits the importation of non-us-spec vehicles. It
does so while there are tons of sub-spec vehicles driving on public american
roads today. I live in Dade County, Florida where it seems like almost
anything goes (kinda like New Mexico); there are cars without bumpers (new
ones, like my neighbors' 96 Civic and a 97 JGC) that don't meet DOT regs
without them, cars with mashed doors, fenders, etc., driving around rusting
and my favorite one so far, a Volvo missing everything up front except for a
buckled hood. Yup, no fenders, bumper or grille (the headlights are wired
on). All that cr*p gets by. (Sorry, I have nothing against you if you drive
neglected vehicles, but just feel that standards are called such because they
apply to all and ought to be upheld) It is kinda ironic and a little
hippocritical that the feds and all their laws can't do anything about the
lack of standards a vehicle should adhere to to stay on the road; at the
minimum would be safety standards like seatbelts and brakes. If I wanted to,
I could cut the rear brake hoses, remove my front bumper and seatbelts put on
slick tires (not to mention put on headlights pointed syward with bailing
wire, crack the windshield and tie on the doors with rope) and get my
registration renewed for another year, yes, a whole 'nother year, here as
long as my engine passed the "emissions test" (which a flatulent horse could
pass). 

At the same time, I can't import my 94 Audi S2 which exceeds all the US regs
but wasn't put through the "official" US tests. Yes, it will pass crash
tests, emissions tests, paternity tests and whatever else; but I can't bring
it in. All I can do is watch the decrepid state of vehicles allowed to be on
the road around me. So frustrating.

Is it just me, or is this an "american thing"? In all the countries I've
visited, many that have had a US involved background, whether former colony,
protectorate or commonwealth (even the countries America had/has a lot of
influence over), seem to have a ton of beat up vehicles allowed on the road.
In contrast to that would be former British colonies, etc., that seem to
strive to keep up the standard of what is allowed to drive on the roads.
Here's a short list of examples:

American Style:			British Style:
Puerto Rico				Hong Kong (until recently)
Philippines				Malaysia
Guam						Australia
Mexico						Singapore

Is there something to that, or is it just my perception? Sorry for being so
long winded, but the whole vehicle importation thing kinda gets to me when i
see what wasn't imported but was *sold* here (like the rusty Chevette, blue
smoke pouring out the exhaust, sliding sideways with locked tires on a rainy
day, in my rearview mirror...).

Oh yeah, I've got my asbestos underwear on. I'm wearing the asbestos
underwear over my SafariGard (tm) skidplate with curbfeelers...

pat "why don't we have an MOT?" parsons
93 "with bumpers and brakes" 110 

ps: just ask me about Florida's "Collector" tags... a friend drives an old
GMC dumptruck. He turned up to work and there were now Collectible Car tags
on it merely for being as old as it was ('72). it didn't even have paint on
it. aaarghhh! So shiny old packards are now as "Collectible" as dumptrucks to
this state...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:14:33 -0800
From: Todd_Wilson@ccmail.columbia.com (Todd Wilson)
Subject: Front end questions

     
     I was wondering if anyone could give me some input on some front end 
     repairs I'm about to undertake.
     
     The steering is loose on my truck. Occasionally if I hit a bump just 
     right i get a serious death wobble. I jacked up the front and moved 
     the wheels back and forth. It looked like the slack was in the relay. 
     As I moved the wheels back and forth the upper arm didn't move while 
     the lower did. The question is that it looked like the lower arm was 
     rocking on the shaft. The pinch bolt was tight. I pulled the arm and 
     checked the splines. They *looked* ok but..... 
     
     Do these splines wear? Am I looking at a new relay or just an arm. 
     From the relay removal thread awhile ago I know they are rebuildable. 
     I haven't taken it apart yet but it looks like the shaft is solid. 
     
     Also, the front end does some serious creeking and low level poping as 
     I turn and go over bumps. I don't think it's the UJ's in the swivel 
     balls, but I can't imagine that the shocks, springs, bushes could 
     creek that much. Any thoughts?
     
     thanks
     todd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:45:13 -0800
From: Todd_Wilson@ccmail.columbia.com (Todd Wilson)
Subject: Re: Front end questions

     
     I was wondering if anyone could give me some input on some front end 
     repairs I'm about to undertake.
     
     Sorry, 1967 IIA 109 SW
     
     thanks
     todd

------------------------------

From: Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:51:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Front end questions

This sounds a lot like Mr. Churchill was when I first bought him.

Good news - it can be fixed.

Bad news - it's not 5 minutes and a screwdriver.

>From the sound of the relay, the lower split bushing is shot. Try grabbing
the lower arma dn walking it back to front, or side to side. If it moves
that way the relay will need rebuilding or replacing. The bushings
themselves are no nightmare to do if you take time and are careful - take a
look at the OVLR Web site - I wrote an article on rebuilding them not too
long ago and it's posted there.

The creaking and groaning sounds to me like rusty springs. If the truck's
been sitting for any length of time outdoors the leaves are likely rusted
and an oil spray combined with some serious bumper jumping might help.

Also, check the condition of the bushings, and the tightness of the through
bolts. All are supposed to be at 70 foot-pounds so that the movement is
taken in the elastomers inside the bushing, not with the bolt rotating in
the sleeve. If it's rotating and rusty, this could create a lot of this
noise.

Email me if you want more info -Alan/ Mr. C.

------------------------------

Date: 1 Dec 1997 12:59:07 -0400
From: "LT J Jackson" <lt_j_jackson@unixlink.uscga.edu>
Subject: SIIA in Manhattan

I took the family to Manhattan on Saturday for a day of shopping (read:
looking).  As we entered the FDR parkway (East Side Highway) southbound from
the Queensboro Bridge, we merged right next to a sharp SIIA with Vermont
plates, dark green, canvas top, and Hella's.
Unbelievable.  The absolute last place I expected to see a Series truck.  I
waved, but sadly I was in the Honda and went properly unnoticed.  Was it
anyone on the list?

Jeff Jackson
73 SIII 88
Waterford, CT

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:31:25 -0500
From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Subject: Importation blues in Florida...

Get with it dude! The import regs aren't in place to protect the public 
from shoddy cars and trucks...they're there to protect the U.S automobile 
manufaturers from the likes of you who would go overseas and buy someone 
else's (better) car and bring it home. Imagine if anybody could bring any 
vehicle they wanted into the country, there'd be a whole lot of Land 
Rover 110's, Gelandewagens, 101s, Unimogs, Mercedes Benz home market 
rocket sleds...you name it. Who'd buy a Chrysler when they could hop a 
plane, buy a fabulous vehicle and bring it home for tons less than a 
similar U.S. made car would cost. When the hobby-car/grey market lobby 
has more clout in Washington than the Big Three, maybe then the laws will 
change.

Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator
'66 Land Rover S2A 109 Diesel Station Wagon,
'81 Honda Goldwing 1100 Standard:
"Practicing the ancient oriental art of ren-ching"

------------------------------

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 13:34:19 EST
Subject: Re: SIIA in Manhattan

>  As we entered the FDR parkway (East Side Highway) southbound from
>the Queensboro Bridge, we merged right next to a sharp SIIA with Vermont
>plates, dark green, canvas top, and Hella's.

joe murphy has a SIII that matches this description. don't know wether he's on 
the list.

later
DaveB

------------------------------

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 13:43:05 EST
Subject: 95 sighting.

88" Land Rover white/limestone/other? spotted parked/stopped/broken/resting 
along shoulder of route (4)?95 somewhere in Delaware, (i think) thursday 
am/afternoon. Spotted by Sister-in-law, hence sketchy details.
This is the same woman, who, upon first viewing my Rover, said "are you 
gong to start delivering mail?"

later
DaveB

------------------------------

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 13:48:33 EST
Subject: Re: Importation blues in Florida...

> When the hobby-car/grey market lobby 
>has more clout in Washington than the Big Three, maybe then the laws will 
>change.

'speshly when the guvmint has spent so much bailing them out over the years. 
It's THEIR money that's on the line.
It's their investment they're protecting.

later
DaveB

------------------------------

Subject: Re: churchill tools
From: Atul Chhabra <atul@Nynexst.COM>
Date: 01 Dec 1997 14:11:03 -0500

I called Kent-Moore and asked for a catalog of LR tools. They say they
have a catalog of LR tools but they send it out only to LR dealers,
not to individuals. 

--Atul Chhabra
  atul@nynexst.com
  '95 disco

>>>>> "Jeremy" == Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net> writes:

    Jeremy> Deezilbob@aol.com wrote:

    >> does anyone know the telephone # of churchill in northants,england, web
    >> address?

    Jeremy> FYI,  Kent-Moore sells the special LR tools in the US.
    Jeremy> 1-800-345-2233.

    Jeremy> cheers,

    Jeremy> Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:20:55 -0800 (PST)
From: "Paul Gussack" <pcg@tennis.org>
Subject: RE:Springs 

My SIII was listing to the RH (it is a RHD and the springs are old) in an
attempt to assassinate multiple fowl with a singular mineral projectile. I
removed the rear bench in the bed of the truck on the LH side and mounted a
steel footlocker donated by my father ( a disco owner) from his days in the
Navy. (weatherproofing and mounting details may be had if requested).  This
provided me with a balanced very solid riding rover and a whole lot o' tools in
a case that can be removed in just minutes. It is right over the wheel so adds
some traction (maybe I just think so).

 It does have two drawbacks:

1. I am down by two passenger places. (not having that many friends brave
enough to ride in the back of Grendal this has not proved that significant)

2. Some added weight which means the possibility of poor gas and greater chance
of sinking in mud.  

Now if I can just get that engine finished I could really prove these theories

Paul G
SIII SWB "Grendal"

------------------------------

Subject: I'm Re:  Re:  Re: Really Sorry
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 14:56:29 -0600
From: asanna <asanna@sacofoods.com>

Geez...  I'm really sorry guys.  What a Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Re: 
 Re: mess.  I just leave town for a few days and my Mac gets me into hot 
water.

The problem is that once a month I help the local elementary school 
publish a newsletter.  Since I get a lot of the articles from the parents 
and teachers via e-mail, I set up my e-mail system to sort any mail with 
the word NEWSLETTER in the title to a special folder, and (here's the 
catch) auto-respond to let the authors know that the articles were 
received.  It's been this way for three years without a problem.

However, combine my not-so-fool-proof system with the Thanksgiving 
holiday and an incoming message from the Rover List titled "Updated 
Website / November Newsletter", and what we got was the self-perpetuating 
loop of my unattended computer responding to its own replies (hence the " 
Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Re:  Updated Website / November 
Newsletter" etc.).

Thanks for your patience.  ....and don't worry, the auto-responder plug 
has been pulled and my computer properly chastised.  Isn't that right 
HAL?  HAL?  HAL??  Open the door HAL.  HAL, open the door....

Tony

Anthony R. Sanna
SACO Foods, Inc.
6120 University Avenue
Middleton, Wisconsin  53562  USA

asanna@sacofoods.com

1-800-373-7226
(608) 238-9101

------------------------------

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Subject: Putting it all back togeather.
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:01:35 -0800

Hi All,

Well, the time has come to switch the socket wrench from
counter-clockwise to clockwise.  

I'm now in the process of painting the frame and bolting things back on.

I have another question about paint colours.  I have decided to go back
to my Rover's original colour (Sand) and was wondering what the
'correct' combination would be for the colour of the hard top and
wheels.  Should they be white? Or limestone?  Is there more than one
shade of white?

Has anyone found a successful way to clean the galvanized bits of their
vehicle like the windshield frame and the body cappings?  Mine has
turned mostly brown to black with age.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Paul Quin
1961 Series II SWB
Victoria, BC  Canada

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:07:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Can't somebody stop this guy!

At 12:59 PM 11/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>It's stopped,  Dixon killed him.
 
Isn't that a bit harsh?  Besides, now we'll start getting messages that say
"We're sorry, but your intended recipient has been murdered brutally with a
left-handed starting crank.  You message, however, has been forwarded to his
next of kin who will no doubt appreciate your sympathy in this, their hour
of lost e-mail...."

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:08:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: You've got to be kidding

At 06:42 PM 11/30/97, you wrote:
>>>1998 LR Defender 110  300Tdi 5door Station Wagon
>>>Available January/February 1998, LR 110 completely disassembled, tell me
 
>>I know this topic has been beaten to death but is anybody concerned that 
>>people who do this may screw it up for the rest of us? 
 
>If you're worried about this type of transaction why draw attention to it 
>by posting the info on this mailing list? If you love Land-Rovers, be cool.
[...]
>hour to put it back together. I strongly feel that people should mind their
>own business in these situations. Dave in Va. 
 
Well, I doubt anyone on this list (especially since a goodly portion of the
subscribers are non-US people) would take the guy up on his offer...  He's
targeting people like Taylor.

But, of definite interest to at least the US folks is the potential harm he
(and others like him) may do to the rest of us.  There are a lot of people
out there who are 100% anti-off-highway, even though the damage done to the
evironment is caused by only a few yahoos in big pickups.  How many areas
have been closed to Land Rovers because some inbred idiot in a
wanna-be-bigfoot-in-mouth tore up part of the countryside?  

Similarly, there are a lot of people who hate mountain-bikers -- again
because of a few troublemakers.  Same for skateboarders (I still ride mine
now and again) and hunters (<-- Gun content!).  Sometimes the resulting
legislation is a good thing (I think waiting periods for guns aren't a bad
idea, I mean, so what if the guy dies before you get a chance to kill him?)
and sometimes they're a bad thing (there are a lot of areas where
responsible LR use would not be damaging that are now closed) but almost
always, the ensuing irrational predjudice is a bad thing.

(I know a guy who truly believes that anyone who owns a mountain bike is
pure evil, even if they never even take it near dirt.)

So, Are nitwits like this guy who try to circumvent the laws for their own
gain going to screw things up for the rest of us?  Probably.  What can we do
about it?  I'm not sure.  Calling attention to him may get Customs (or
whoever) looking more closely at all LR imports, even if its just one of us
ordering parts for our NADA vehicles.  That, of course, would me more
paperwork at the very least, and probably more fees to pay for the paperwork.

Imagine that you've ordered one of those 2.5l spin on oil filter adapters
and the UPS guy shows up with a couple of Customs dudes and FBI guys.  They
want to search your house to make sure you're not bringing in a 110" Tdi one
piece at a time.  Then, because they don't know an Ibex from an inkblot,
they decide to confiscate your '59 88" because they think you've forged your
DMV paperwork.  

So, I dunno what to do.  I do know I don't appreciate his attempts to get
rich at the expense of others.  

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:25:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@nrn1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: Can't somebody stop this guy!

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:

> Isn't that a bit harsh?  Besides, now we'll start getting messages that say

	Nope.  The murdered chap put his Lucas tripolar cup holder on top
of the server which caused the internals to go wonky under the influence
of a Lucas generated electo-magnetic field.  He got what he deserved
Guv'nor... 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:44:24 -0400
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: the "importation" of vehicles, 110s or otherwise

Here in Nove Scotia  (go to Maine and turn right) we have annual
inspections for vehicle safety and you rarely see substandard cars on
the road. There are periodic road block checks made and if you are in
violation you car will be towed on the spot and the the cops will call
cab for you just after they give you an expensive ticket. Needless to
say you pay the tow bill and the cab fare. As the inspection only costs
$15.00 and can be done at most garages it is hardly worth not getting it
done. They examine the steering, suspension, brakes(including the E
brake) body, wipers,exhaust, doorseals and lights, all of it quite
thoroughly. If it passes you get a windshield sticker good for a year
but if it fails you get a red reject sticker and 16 days to get it
fixed.Most motorists grumble when it is time for inspection but agree it
is a good thing really as we rarely hear of accidents where vehicle
failure was the cause.When a vehicle is sold it must have been inspected
during the time you have owned it. This means that Used Car dealers must
have their vehicles done too before sale.Inspection stations passing
unsafe vehicles are liable for large fines and loss of business.
    This system is not in force in all Canadian Provinces unfortunatly.
       John and Muddy(who needs a new inspection this week)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:23:56 -0400
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Front end questions

Todd It is almost certain that your relay needs rebuilding. As for the
clunking etc when turning  Jack up the front axle under the axle its
self and holding the top and bottom of each wheel attempt to move the
wheel in and out at the top. If there is any movement you probably have
swivel bearings gone as the only other cause of this looseness is worn
wheel bearings. you can check this by taking the wheel off and looking
to see if the movement is the hub/brake drum assembly or at the the 
swivel. While you are under there check the oil level in the swivel
housing. This is often over looked and if dry will quickly take out the 
swivel bearings causing the very noise you describe.
     John and Muddy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:45:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Russ Wilson <rwilson@usaor.net>
Subject: Re: Putting it all back togeather.

and was wondering what the
>'correct' combination would be for the colour of the hard top and
>wheels.  Should they be white? Or limestone?  Is there more than one
>shade of white?

Paint it however suits your fancy.....

>Has anyone found a successful way to clean the galvanized bits of their
>vehicle like the windshield frame and the body cappings?

Send the stuff out to be regalvanized  $75 (U.S.) for the whole works.
It looks great to have it all fresh if you are going to go to the trouble
of repainting.

cheers

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

Fort Pitt Land Rover Group
Pittsburgh, Pa.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:20:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn@ricochet.net>
Subject: Illegal Importers: Good or bad?

At 06:44 PM 12/1/97, you wrote:
>I don't really understand your reply to this part of the discussion. I 
>agree; most anyone on this list knows you can't "legally" bring in a 
>new 110 to the US without federalization. So why bring it up? The only
   
The intended discussion was not "to import or not to import?" but "what will
be the effects on *us* when this guy (and others like him) get caught?".
This is a very valid and important issue.  This guy (and others like him)
could seriously muck things up for the rest of us.
 
>result of an open discussion of this touchy subject on the LRO mailing list
>would be to get someone in VERY deep trouble. The cost of getting caught
>bringing in an illegal auto is loss of the auto and a $20,000 fine. I
   
My guess is that the guy knows what he's doing ain't exactly kosher.  So
when he gets busted (not if) he should be ready for it.  (I say *if* because
it will happen.  The simplest way is when one of his customers gets his
vehicle impounded and goes after him, but the DOT, Customs, et al aren't
dummies either.)
 
>personally don't care if a few guys break the law and risk their ass 
>just to say that they are one of the few with a non-NADA 110 in the US
>anymore than I care if some people drive 65 in a 55mph zone or that some
>people smoke a few joints. It's all against the law. 
   
There are reasons those laws are in place.  In some cases (pot, maybe
importing cars) they maybe stupid and should be removed, and in others
(speed limits, in many places, maybe importing cars) they are very important
for the general well being of most people.  
  
Would you have the same attitude about someone who gets drunk, gets in his
car, and runs down one of your kids?  What if he manages not to kill anyone?
  
 
>OK...maybe 10 or 20 or maybe 50. It's a moot point. It's a very small 
>number. I think it would be a VERY small # because the people that could
>afford to jump through the hoops to get a new 110 would be much more likely
   
So now you've hit another reason.  Let's say its 20.  (Not everyone has to
pay someone to rebuild a vehicle, and what if this guy is also a mechanic
who "rebuilds" land rovers?)  20 vehicles is 5% of the number of 110's
legally imported.  If you take away 5% of a  company's business, they're
going to feel it.  Which means they may decide to pull out of the US
completely.  And that wouldn't do anyone any good.  
 
A lot of software companies went bankrupt because, although everyone used
their software, no one ever bought it.  (Yes, it's different scales, but I'm
not saying LR would go bankrupt -- but they might pull out of an
unprofitable market.)
 
>It's worth noting in private conversations. Not in a public forum. Think
>about it. The only people that are really concerned with illegal 
>importation of current Land-Rover models is NOT the DOT but LRNA. The real
   
Actually, the DOT *is* concerned.  As is local law enforcement, federal law
enforcement, customs, various DMV's, etc.
 
>world result of an illegal LR purchase is that LRNA will probably lose 
>a sale on a Range Rover or a Disco. And you better believe that every sale
>matters to small co. selling luxury goods. And don't you think that 
   
So are you gonna tell all the real world employees of LRNA that they won't
get a christmas bonus because they lost too many sales of RR's or Discos to
illegals?  I know two diehard *series* fans who are now working for local LR
dealers.  They would get hurt too.
 
>at least ONE employee of LRNA is subscribed to the list? And how long would
>it take LRNA to do a web search and find the webpage you refer to? About
>10 minutes. Then they could screw up this guys (admittedly quasi-legal at
  
So what you're saying is that we should shut up and become accessories to
this guy's little scheme?  Sorry, but I regularly get into verbal arguments
with people who (improperly) park in disabled parking spaces; do you think
I'm going to shut up to help someone get rich at my expense?
 
>best) business, cause them to lose money AND ruin some LR fanatics chance
>of getting a nice shiny new 110. 
   
Let that fanatic buy one of the legally imported 110's.  Or better yet, a 109".
 
>STILL be completely clueless as to the illegality of this rigamaroll
>is ludicrous.
   
Personally, I don't care whether someone does it knowingly or not.  I'm
worried about being screwed because of it, and that's what I think is a
valid topic for discussion on the Land Rover list.
 
>>just wondering if this type of transaction could eventually lead to a ban 
>>on all non-US-spec autos, regardless of age.
>Do you think if someone is caught bringing grenade launchers into the US
>illegally that this would cause the banning of shotguns? Why on earth would
>the smuggling of illegal trucks affect the laws concerning legal imports?
>I can see no connection.

   
There is a huge connection.  There's a place called Fly Geyser in Nevada.
Used to be anyone could go there, camp, soak in the hot pools, etc. even
though it was privately owned.  There was a gate, but it was always open,
always welcoming.  
 
Then a bunch of idiots showed up and trashed the place.  The owners
reportedly had to spend about $5K to get garbage removed from the pools and
surrounding area.  
 
Now the gate is closed and locked.
 
It doesn't matter that it wasn't everyone, or that it wasn't even Land Rover
Owners (certainly not!).  Someone did it, and spoiled it for the rest of it.
I'm sure the had quite a party.  A grand old time.  And we paid the price.
 
There are plenty of other areas like that.  Mojave road.  Much of the Sierras.  
 
So this guy sells a few.  Makes some decent money.  His buddy in  the next
shop sees it and starts doing the same.  Pretty soon, you've got a bunch of
guys bringing in Land Rovers, Citroens, Jaguars, etc., circumventing the
laws.  Then the government catches on.  
 
Maybe somebody tries to register a 110" in california as a '67, and Candido
Gomez in the Sacto, thinking it must be a mistake, contacts the local office
to check it out.  The guy gets his 110-from-parts confiscated.  He tells
them about our friend the importer.  Customs or DOT or NSA or whoever show
up on his door and shut him down.  
 
LR, or Chevy, or whoever makes a big stink about it and some bright young
senator with a promising future decides to introduce a bill saying that
parts can no longer be imported except by licensed dealers.  (i.e., LRNA.)  
 
Then what happens to the price of series parts, if they're available at all?
What happens to people like Steve at BritPac, or the guys from Rovers North,
or Scotty, or even Dixon and crew who bring in their own parts?
 
Maybe none of this would happen, maybe I'm just getting hysterical over a
worst case scenario that would never happen.  BUT, I don't know that it
wouldn't happen and I would really like to hear from people who are in a
better position to know than I.  I *Strongly* feel this is an IMPORTANT
issue to be discussed.  I'm not sure I shouldn't dig up this web page and
turn the guy in myself.  
 

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger@sinasohn.com                           that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

From: IBEdwardp@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:32:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Front end questions

In a message dated 97-12-01 12:28:33 EST, you write:

<< The steering is loose on my truck. Occasionally if I hit a bump just 
      right i get a serious death wobble. >>

Mine did this when I first got it.  I was, like you, preparing to make all
kinds of front end repairs/adjustments.  A friend with lots of "old truck"
experience and no LR experience suggested I buy tires first.  A new set of
radials cured it.  Don't know why but it worked.  If you're going to buy
tires anyway, you might try it and see.  Good luck.

Ed Bailey
66 S2a SWB  No Name
Somewhere in East Tennessee

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:48:05 -0800
From: Blair Gillespie <BlairG@fix.net>
Subject: Re: Illegal Importers: Good or bad?

Good evening,
	Well, curiosity got the better part of me and I looked at the ad that we
have been talking about. 
	The guy who is advertising the 110 for sale states in the ad that it would
be the owners reponsabilty to register the vehicle. This says to me that he
understands that making the vehicle legal is far harder  than bringing the
parts in to the USA. Who's not to say that the person that would buy this
vehicle would not go through the time and money to bring the vehicle up to
spec? If a person loves something enough they will spend alot of money to
do and have something that others don't. Regardless of cost!
	Do I think this is going to effect us as Land Rover owners? No, I think we
will go about our normal Land Rover way while these type of people will
realize that what they are doing is not going to make that much money and
not worth the effort.
	Would I love to have a 90,110,or 127? Damn straight! Do I agree with the
rules of importation? Hell no! Am I happy with what I have? Yes.
Rover On,
Blair
	
Blair Gillespie
San Luis Obispo 
California USA

1988 Range Rover
1972 SIII 88
1967 HD FLH
1940 Ford Pick Up

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:10:53 -0800
From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Subject: Re: churchill tools

Atul Chhabra wrote:

> I called Kent-Moore and asked for a catalog of LR tools. They say they
> have a catalog of LR tools but they send it out only to LR dealers,
> not to individuals.

There's always a catch isn't there?  I wonder if Churchill is the same.

cheers

Jeremy

------------------------------

From: SPYDERS@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:17:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:  G-wagens in NM

In a message dated 12/1/97 1:35:54 PM, you wrote:

>Get with it dude! The import regs aren't in place to protect the public 
>from shoddy cars and trucks...they're there to protect the U.S automobile 
>manufaturers from the likes of you who would go overseas and buy someone 
>else's (better) car and bring it home. Imagine if anybody could bring any 
>vehicle they wanted into the country, there'd be a whole lot of Land 
>Rover 110's, Gelandewagens, 101s, Unimogs, Mercedes Benz home market 
>rocket sleds...you name it.

I'm slowly getting with it, thanks for helping my feeble self along. Part of
my getting with it process also agrees with all you've said. The volume of
personally imported vehicles would just kill the local auto industry,
wouldn't it?

Can anyone on the list enlighten me on all the new Gelandewagens running
around Santa Fe NM? They can't *all* be kit-wagens, can they? They're new
within the last couple of years (95ish on) and registered in NM. haven't seen
so many in one place. The only other one I've seen was here in Miami on a
tourist visa from italy. Maybe benz only sold them in one state, but I find
that hard to believe.

pat
93  110

------------------------------

From: "Charles Morris" <scimg@quiknet.com>
Subject: New Rover Owner
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:41:12 -0800

Just got my new D90 last month and I must say I am having a hell of a great
time.  I already have put about 2200 miles on it and created an exhaust
leak my first time offroad with it. (The rock just jumped up and attacked
me, really <g>).  No lockers, stock wheels, and unmodified suspension still
took several places my buddies J**ps couldn't go <G>. (<g>=little grin
<G>=big grin)

Just one question... The airflow slide switch doesnt seen to work properly
all the time.  When the engine is cool only the last two clicks work.  Once
the engine is warmed up all the levels work.  Wierd huh? Has anybody
experienced this same quirk?

Any help appreciated.

THX,
Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:48:54 -0800
From: Michael Carradine <cs@unimog.net>
Subject: Re: G-wagens in NM

At 10:17 PM 12/1/97 -0500, SPYDERS@aol.com wrote:
:Can anyone on the list enlighten me on all the new Gelandewagens running
:around Santa Fe NM? They can't *all* be kit-wagens, can they? They're new
:within the last couple of years (95ish on) and registered in NM. haven't seen
:so many in one place. The only other one I've seen was here in Miami on a
:tourist visa from italy. Maybe benz only sold them in one state, but I find
:that hard to believe.

 They are imported legally by Europa Motorcars, www.gwagen.com.
 They reportedly had the G-Wagens certified and crash tested.
 The modifications to meet US specs are proprietary (not in public
 domain).

-Michael

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 22:52:24 -0500
From: David Cockey <dcockey@tir.com>
Subject: Re: You've got to be kidding

My understanding about importing LRs into the US based on reading the
NHTSA safety regulations (as a non-lawyer) and observing what is
practiced openly on a long term basis is as follows:

Any vehicle at least 25 years old (since built, not since the serial
number plate was stamped) does not have to comply with the Federal
safety regs. EPA can and almost always grants waivers to vehicles over
25 years old but otherwise subject to emission regs, and Customs seems
to be empowered to grant the waivers automatically. Vehicles rebuilt in
a non-original configuration could be considered as new when rebuilt and
thus not 25 years old. Note that your state (Calif. for example) may be
more stringent about registration, but that does not affect importation.

Individual vehicle parts can be imported for anything as long as they
don't have to meet safety standards as parts or assemblies. Tires for
highway use are an example of parts that have to meet safety standards.
I don't know about complete running engine assemblies and pollution
regulations, but incomplete engines appear to be okay.

Collections of parts which don't constitute a vehicle can be imported.
Caterham Seven kits have been advertised and imported openly for years.
I don't think the kits include the engine or transmission. Other parts
may also be missing. A vehicle assembled from such a kit currently falls
in a gray area which the feds are ignoring for individuals not operating
as a business. Again, you have to meet your state's requirements for a
kit or assembled vehicle.

I've don't know when a collection of parts constitutes an incomplete
vehicle. Such vehicles have to meet the applicable Federal safety and
emmision laws when completed, and the importer has to be certified, etc.
This is presumably the route the ARO importers are taking.

So if you acquire a collection of parts which you build a vehicle from
in the US, the feds won't care as long as you didn't import too many of
the parts together. But you will have to satisfy state requirements for
safety and emissions. The resulting vehicle will need to be registered
according to state law as a "kit" or "assembled" vehicle unless you
started with a legal, titled donor vehicle which was then modified.

Importing a single vehicle dissasmbled with the intent of evading
federal law might be illegal in any case (but I'm not a lawyer!). Best
bet is not to try it. The previously legal methods for individuals to
import recent "gray market" vehicles vanished when the law was changed
several years ago, unless the manufactuer will certify for your
individual vehicle that it meets all applicable safety and emission
rules. Virtually none will.

I've also heard 3rd or 4th hand that some customs offices have caught
onto the SIIA serial number plate and paperwork on a 90/110 etc.

Regards,
David Cockey

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:59:47 -0800
From: Blair Gillespie <BlairG@fix.net>
Subject: Re:  G-wagens in NM

Pat,
	The company in Santa Fe ( I can't remember the name ) has done what MB
would do if they wanted to bring the G-wagen in to the US. They have
provided the feds with vehicles to crash, Installed all the safety
equipment and emmisions control devices and in turn are able to charge the
buyer over 100,000 grand for a new G-wagon ( short wheel base! ). All
vehicles are legal and are able to be registered as a new vehicle. 
	Sometimes money can buy happyness.
Blair
Blair Gillespie
San Luis Obispo 
California USA

1988 Range Rover
1972 SIII 88
1967 HD FLH
1940 Ford Pick Up

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:08:11 -0500
From: David Cockey <dcockey@tir.com>
Subject: Re: G-wagens in NM

> Can anyone on the list enlighten me on all the new Gelandewagens
> running
> around Santa Fe NM? They can't *all* be kit-wagens, can they? They're
> new
> within the last couple of years (95ish on) and registered in NM.
> haven't seen
> so many in one place.

The importer in New Mexico has an arrangement with and cooperation from
MB to import the vehicles, and has spent considerable money to modify
and properly certify them as meeting all applicable safety and emmision
regs. I don't recall the price they get, but a large portion of it must
go to pay for the certification.

The changes in law several years ago which closed the door on individual
gray market imports was primarially at the behest of the imports, not
the domestic industry. BMW, Porche, etc. claimed that vehicles were
being sold which might be unsafe, and that their reputations were being
sullied by vehicles they had no control over. There were also some folks
who were fraudently certifying vehicles, particullarly for emissions.

Regards,
David Cockey

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:04:39 -1000
From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Subject: Re: Illegal Importers: Good or bad?

Calm down uncle roger, you have taken the importation of gray market
vehicles to the absurd.
	1.  Should the government be in the business of protecting me from myself.
 Vehicles that are unsafe should not be on the road, but neither should the
government deny a citizen the right to own something because they are
afraid what it may do the citizen, not the general populace.  That goes
beyond the realm of the states police powers.
	2.  Let's talk about the environment and land rover.  The environmentally
friendly modern land rover would be a stripped, bare bones, d90 with turbo
diesel and 5 speed.  Lowest consumption of materials to build and lowest
consumption of fossil fuels to run.  Instead rover forces a gas guzzling v8
with energy wasting auto trans, air conditioning, and more plastic to fall
apart than a tupper ware sales person.  The insult is they expect us to pay
$35,000 for piece of junk that is only a small improvement over our series
vehicles in performance and a definite step back in utilitarian value.
	So what are our choices.  Bend over and let our "save us from ourselves"
gov't force improper, unreasonable, and inefficient products on us.  Or we
can show some independence and create our own vehicles out of parts we have
(series vehicles) or parts we can bring in (disassembled 90's or 110's).
Either way, we and the country benefit by our initiative.
	What really bothers me about your harangue, Roger, is your use of the
pejorative "profit."  Is profit immoral in your mind or have you been
existing on handouts from some poor street person.  So the guy makes a
buck.  Since LRNA has seen fit to deny us a proper choice of vehicles, this
guy is filling an unnatural vacuum.  I doubt that he is going to get rich
unless he is going to disassemble/assemble the vehicle himself and even
then "rich" is definitely a term with a subjective value.  Profit is what
this country is built on.  Without profit and the incentive to be rewarded
for your efforts, this would be a much poorer country and definitely a much
poorer world.
	What about the poor soul who buys the vehicle and gets stuck??  Have you
ever heard of personal responsibility???  You buys your illegal toys and
takes your chances.  That is the problem with our society, today.  The
lawyers have convinced us that everything is somebodies else's fault.
Stuff tons of illegal white powder up your nose, get busted for lifting the
funds to pay for your habit, and its okay because its not your fault.  Your
mother smoked while bottle (not breast) feeding you leaving you permanently
responsibility impaired.  The government owes you disability because of
your habit, the prisons need more cable channels to broaden your experience
if you are unfortunate enough to get incarcerated and the police need
billions of dollars to try and catch sorry souls like you, while the
Columbian drug lord makes millions of dollars off the grossly inflated
value of the powder you put up your nose and the grossly inflated cost of
your habit excuses you for ripping off people to feed your habit in the
first place.  A sorry web we weave.
	What it all boils down to, if the government wasn't so all fired up
determined to save us from ourselves, we would be better off, physically,
mentally, and economically.  We have to stop them from passing laws that
waste our time and money.  Yes it is our money that pays for each wrecked
vehicle to meet inspection requirements to make a vehicle a legal import.
Once again that evil word "profit" comes up.  The company jumping through
the hoops to make a vehicle "legal" will recoup the cost of those hoops
from the sweat of our brows.  
	Let the sleeping dogs lie and shoot the dog politicians that use our
stupidity to try and protect us from ourselves.  Enough of this thread, cut
it.
Aloha
Peter 

07:20 PM 12/1/97 -0600, you wrote:
>At 06:44 PM 12/1/97, you wrote:
>>I don't really understand your reply to this part of the discussion. I 
>>agree; most anyone on this list knows you can't "legally" bring in a 
>>new 110 to the US without federalization. So why bring it up? The only
>The intended discussion was not "to import or not to import?" but "what will
>be the effects on *us* when this guy (and others like him) get caught?".

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 80 lines)]
>>of getting a nice shiny new 110. 
>Let that fanatic buy one of the legally imported 110's.  Or better yet, a
109".
>>STILL be completely clueless as to the illegality of this rigamaroll
>>is ludicrous.
>Personally, I don't care whether someone does it knowingly or not.  I'm
>worried about being screwed because of it, and that's what I think is a
>valid topic for discussion on the Land Rover list.
>be the effects on *us* when this guy (and others like him) get caught?".

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 31 lines)]
>I'm sure the had quite a party.  A grand old time.  And we paid the price.
>There are plenty of other areas like that.  Mojave road.  Much of the
Sierras.  
>So this guy sells a few.  Makes some decent money.  His buddy in  the next
>shop sees it and starts doing the same.  Pretty soon, you've got a bunch of
>guys bringing in Land Rovers, Citroens, Jaguars, etc., circumventing the
>laws.  Then the government catches on.  
>Maybe somebody tries to register a 110" in california as a '67, and Candido
>Gomez in the Sacto, thinking it must be a mistake, contacts the local office
>to check it out.  The guy gets his 110-from-parts confiscated.  He tells
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 38 lines)]
>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
>San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

From: Bob Sjonnesen <bob@cancom.net>
Subject: Starting problem - battery or other?
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:30:48 -0500

My 1957 Series I Landrover, 88", has been having difficulty starting =
recently.  While the cold weather certainly hasn't helped, I do believe =
it has exacerbated the situation to a non-start position. (But I can =
still start it by hand!)

I've been reviewing the options for why this is happening and I have =
noticed the following symptoms -

  -  when I press on the starter button, with the key engaged, the =
starter feels like it has a substantial load on it.  It kicks in and =
really has to push to turn the engine.  Until recently, it's always =
'made it'.

 -   When I hand-start it  (I've done so twice- not much experience)   - =
 the engine feels like it may be stiff.  (I'm 190# and had to put a lot =
of weight behind it.)

-   When I operate the vehicle after self-starting, all of the =
electrical components operate fine.

-  The battery may be partially worn down as a result of a few recent =
misadventures with mud and winch. However, the load problem was there =
before this.

Reading my manual indicates that one of the problems when the STARTER =
FAILS TO OPERATE  may be a "stiff engine, indicated by inability to turn =
by hand- locate and remedy".

1.  How stiff should an engine be?

2.  How do you unstiffen an engine? (ie. remedy!)

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Cheers

Bob Sjonnesen
Elliot Lake, Ontario, Canada
bob@cancom.net

------------------------------

From: "Richard Marsden"<rmarsden@digicon-egr.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:29:49 +0000
Subject: Re: Can't somebody stop this guy!

Nah, I reckon it was the presence of time warp/dilation/travel due to the
spontaneous presence of a small black hole!  (Stephen Hawking is the
current Lucasian Professor...)

Richard (ex-Gurkha SIII 109 FFR)

dkenner@nrn1.nrcan.gc.ca on 12/01/97 11:25:14 PM

Please respond to lro@playground.sun.com

cc:    (bcc: Richard Marsden/EAME/VDGC)

Subject:  Re: Can't somebody stop this guy!

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:
> Isn't that a bit harsh?  Besides, now we'll start getting messages that
say
     Nope.  The murdered chap put his Lucas tripolar cup holder on top
of the server which caused the internals to go wonky under the influence
of a Lucas generated electo-magnetic field.  He got what he deserved
Guv'nor...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:17:20 +0100
From: Jan Schokker <janjan@xs4all.nl>
Subject: RE:Springs 

At 11:20 1-12-97 -0800, you wrote:
>My SIII was listing to the RH (it is a RHD and the springs are old) in an
>attempt to assassinate multiple fowl with a singular mineral projectile. I
>removed the rear bench in the bed of the truck on the LH side and mounted a
>steel footlocker..

snip
>Paul G
>SIII SWB "Grendal"
>removed the rear bench in the bed of the truck on the LH side and mounted a

Paul,

I already saw this post a couple of months ago.
What happened in the meantime?

Regards,
jan.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:47:40 +0200
From: Chris Swart <swartc@iafrica.com>
Subject: Acronyms

Hi
Anyone know the full version of the acronym JATE?
Also, what is the origin of the term *breakfast*?
Regards
Chris

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