Land Rover Owner Message Digest Contents


[ First Message Last | Table of Contents | <- Digest -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Send Submissions Land-Rover-Owner@Land-Rover.Team.Net

msgSender linesSubject
1 Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus@lo28Good substitute part - Air cleaner to carburettor hose
2 dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.o47Re: Distributor Self Destruct/Engine Noise HELP!!
3 NADdMD@aol.com 20Re: clutch question
4 dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.o13Re[2]: clutch question
5 "Cooper, Paul" [P.Cooper9[not specified]
6 Bernd Jonas [Bernd.Jonas15IIa wonīt run...HELP!!!
7 "Christopher H. Dow" [do47Re: IIa won't run...HELP!!!
8 DONOHUEPE@aol.com 15LRO Digest Blues
9 Paul Wakefield [pwakefie32re: Harness burnouts and batteries
10 "Dan Prasada-Rao (301)7541Distributor Self-Destruct/Engine Noise
11 AKBLACKLEY@aol.com 13Beer (not LR related, much)
12 ARTuro500@aol.com 19Re: RE: Sticky Steering Wheel
13 NADdMD@aol.com 12Re: Beer (not LR related, much)
14 AKBLACKLEY@aol.com 16Parts
15 "Dan Prasada-Rao (301)7538Distributor Self Destruct/Engine Noise HELP!!
16 Andy Phillips [AnPi@serv18RE: Parts
17 Autoconv@aol.com 13Re: splines (reply)
18 Jeremy Bartlett [bartlet14Re: Beer (not LR related, much)
19 Jeremy Bartlett [bartlet31Re: IIa won't run...HELP!!!
20 RoverNut@aol.com 19Re:
21 gpool@pacific.net (Granv50Re: Parts
22 "Jeffrey A. Berg" [jberg160FINSUPdate: Repair follies.
23 Russ Wilson [rwilson@usa20Re[2]: clutch question
24 Hoot6@aol.com 8Referral to Northern Virginia sand blaster for axle and prop shaft
25 QROVER80@aol.com 22Cheep 2.25 motors for sale
26 matt nelson [nelsml73@sn46Pioneer Tools, British surplus etc.
27 dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.o11Re[3]: clutch question
28 john cranfield [john.cra22Re: FINSUPdate: Repair follies.
29 rover@pinn.net (Alexande22Roll cages
30 rover@pinn.net (Alexande23"Emergency"
31 Paul Quin [Paul_Quin@pml23Thanksgiving with no Landy
32 ASFCO@worldnet.att.net 14engine guard
33 cascardo@ix.netcom.com 20Mantec intake install
34 David Scheidt [david@mat29Re: FINSUPdate: Repair follies.
35 David Cockey [dcockey@ti26Axle Ratios (was:Used Winch wanted)
36 David Cockey [dcockey@ti18Re: Brake fluid redux
37 Brian Cramer [defender@u18=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_IIa_won=B4t_run...HELP!!!?=
38 Todd_Wilson@ccmail.colum25Diesel Woes.....
39 john cranfield [john.cra16Re: Diesel Woes.....
40 Solihull@aol.com 26NAS D110 FS in Metro Atlanta
41 @info2000.net 12EURO PARTS


------------------------------ [ Message 1 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:56:11 -0400
Subject: Good substitute part - Air cleaner to carburettor hose

Recently I decided the rusty-hole-filled tube from my air cleaner to the
carb swan had to go - but I wasn't paying original prices.

OK, so call me cheap - I'll admit it.

A fair bit of scouting around found me a perfect replacement. It's an
Mighty-Flow air-intake flexible hose made my Motormite, of Colmar, PA, and
sold by PartsAmerica houses in the US. Pep Boys, Canadian Tire and the like
would likely also have it or a similar bit.

Part # is 96058 - 2-19/32" diameter by 17" long.

Thee nice bit about this part is that it comes with pre-attached hose
clamps and simply slips and locks into place with no cutting or fitting.
The severely tradition-bound could, if they wished, cut off the plastic
clamps and put on the proper hose clamps, but I didn't see the need.

In construction, it's simply a tough plastic tube, spiral-reinforced with a
steel band. Clloks good and fits fine, though nowhere near as heavy as the
original LR part.

          Alan/Mr. Churchill

------------------------------
[ <- Message 2 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 08:23:14 EST
Subject: Re: Distributor Self Destruct/Engine Noise HELP!!

And so the saga continues.
This one is bugging me and costing me money.
  
My engine has just chewed up the third distributor that I know of.  One
with the PO and two since I've owned it.  The latest failure appears to
have been caused by a rivet that held the contact piece on the top of the
rotor.  I found the rivet in the bottom of the distributor.  On the way
down it appears to have knocked the advance weights loose causing the
weights to start grinding around on the inside of the distributor housing. 
I've got it going again but I still have a problem as follows.

>When this engine (2.25 petrol) is running it sounds like a deisel or like
>it needs the valve adjusted.  

no, it doesn't. It sounds like and engiune that is sick and has some kind of 
permanent damage inside. It doesn'tsound like valve noise AT ALL.

> I found a
>vibration in the distributor that matches the noise. ... as I turned the engine
>over by hand...I've noticed that the rotor jumps or snaps forward in four 
>places 

remove the engine side covers. (fuel pump and oil filler neck). remove the right
side wing. look through the covers at the cam to see if you can find anything 
wrong.
have a helper turn it over while you watch the cam.
My guess is that you will need to replace lots of bits to fix this. you might be
better off getting a motor out of a parts truck that doesn't have lots of miles 
on it. 

Stop trying to speculate what the problem is. Either fix it, or replace the 
engine, or just live with it. Sounds liek ti could get expensive though with all
those distributors.

> The noise that this engine makes is worse at idle and generally quiets down or
>disappears at high revs.

as do most noises, its going too fast for you to hear it.

later
DaveB

------------------------------
[ <- Message 3 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:36:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: clutch question

In a message dated 97-10-10 06:51:26 EDT, you write:

<< A spacer was used under the slave cylinder in LR's factory equipped with
 9 1/2 inch clutches. Most North American IIAs and IIIs came with the
 larger clutch. The same thing is accomplished by adjusting the push rod.
  >>

I noted this difference in the SII and SIIa slave cylinder set up (I actually
have a parts late IIa which I practiced on first).  When I asked Charlie at
RN, his opinion was the spacer was unnecessary for the SII clutch and that
the pushrod could be adjusted to the correct height without it.  His opinion:
 Leave the spacer out and adjust the pushrod to the factory spec.

Nate

------------------------------
[ <- Message 4 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 08:43:00 EST
Subject: Re[2]: clutch question

I'm looking for a decent rear tub for my 88, willing to spend about 100-150 
dollars for a striaght one, without lots of corrosion. MD/DC/VA/PA/WV 
preferred.

thanks
DaveB
dbobeck@ushmm.org

------------------------------
[ <- Message 5 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: "Cooper, Paul" <P.Cooper@shu.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:59:32 +0100

Subscribe P.Cooper@shu.ac.uk
Paul Cooper
Admin Computing
Ext.4560

------------------------------
[ <- Message 6 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:30:40 +0100
From: Bernd Jonas <Bernd.Jonas@munich.netsurf.de>
Subject: IIa wonīt run...HELP!!!

Hi Greg!
I had a similar problem on holiday in Croatia.
First you have too be sure there is NO air in your fuelsys.
Now it might be running. If not it should be a fuelpump or fuelinjector
problem. In my case it was the low-pressure-part of the CAV. A little
coverplate was not absolutely airproof (iīm not very well in english)
-->Air in the fuelsys-->motor was not running.
Hope itīll help you!
Bye
Bernd

------------------------------
[ <- Message 7 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:13:58 -0700
From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Subject: Re: IIa won't run...HELP!!!

Brian Cramer wrote:
> My newly purchased IIa starts and idles fine, but after driving along a
> mile, or two the engine starts missing and eventually dies. It won't
> restart right away. It cranks, but doesn't fire up. After sitting for a
> little while, it starts, and drives only to miss and stall again. Any ideas?

Coil, Distributor cap, and fuel have all been mentioned, and my
experience would lead me to those three conclusions.  The coil is cheap,
and the distributor cap is easy to check, so try them first.  Then, if
that doesn't work, look at the fuel system (just simple sorting by
ease-of-test, and cost).

> BTW, how does the CHARGE light operate? Mine glows bright at idle, and dims
> at speed, but never seems to go out completely. Is this correct, or do I
> have a charging problem?

The charging lamp works like this.  Power comes out of the ignition
switch, and goes to the lamp.  From there, a wire goes to a connection
on the charging system (generator/alternator).  When the ignition key is
turned on, but the car is not running, there is 12V on one side of the
lamp, and 0V from the charging system, so the electricity "falls"
through the lamp and illuminates it.  When the car is running, there
should be 12V from the charging system and 12V from the ignition system,
so there is nowhere for the electricity to "fall", and the lamp does not
come on.  A dim charging lamp means you're not generating 12V, and a
bright charging lamp means you're closer to 0V.  

So, there is much data to support the conclusion that you have a
charging problem.  Now, what do you do about it?  You can get a rebuilt
or new generator, or you can get a Delco alternator (this requires a +VE
to -VE conversion).  I did the latter, and am quite happy.  However,
that was in the process of completely rewiring my '65 IIA, so you may
decide differently.  Note that a Delco alternator costs around $100
(that's actually on the high side), and you can mount it (and do the
ground coversion) in an afternoon using anything from a stack of washers
to custom-fabricated brackets for the physical mounting.

I have a web page describing the process at
http://www.thelen.org/IIAAlternator.html

Good Luck.
C

------------------------------
[ <- Message 8 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: DONOHUEPE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:21:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: LRO Digest Blues

Hello Major:

Today's LRO digest arrived as a totally garbled WINMAIL.DAT file instead of
the usual ASCII text file.  This happened once last month; none of my
software will decrypt this stuff.  Am I being picked on in particluar or is
this an AOL peculiarity?

Paul Donohue
donohuepe@aol.com

------------------------------
[ <- Message 9 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:29:26
From: Paul Wakefield <pwakefie@mail.esrin.esa.it>
Subject: re: Harness burnouts and batteries

Hi All,

Well, I still only have a backlog of 1 months mails to read, but the thread
on battery disconnection reminded me of a mechanic I once knew and an
incident I saw.

Nate Wrote:
>Most backyard mechanics know if there's an electrical fire, the first thing
>to do (if possible) is DISCONNECT THE BATTERY!  Worry about where it's 
>coming from later

The guy was working on a Renault (4 I think) when the harness fused and the
aforementioned smoke billowed from the dashboard.

His only weapon close at hand to solve the disaster (on a customers car)
was a large hammer.

In a split second of reasoning, he though he could knock off the battery
post, as a replacement battery would be cheaper than a replacement car.

Swing, connects with post, swing, connects with huge glass radiator
overflow bottle ! (pause for expolosion of antifreeze, water and glass)
swing, removes post.

Still, new battery & 1 overflow bottle later I think he learnt his lesson !

Paul.

------------------------------
[ <- Message 10 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:33:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Dan Prasada-Rao (301)757-1479 X26" <prasadaraodp.nimitz@NAVAIR.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Distributor Self-Destruct/Engine Noise

>From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 05:47:47 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: Re: Distributor Self Destruct/Engine Noise HELP!!

Dan,  .....snip...

>>My friend, you have a loose crank pulley! It COULD be the timing gear on
>the camshaft, but it's most likely the crank pulley. This, in turn, lets
>the timing gear on the crankshaft move back and forth, and eventually,
>side to side, causing the keyway on the crankshaft itself, to wear out.

>This, is why you don't have the "The valves are WAY out of adjustment -
>but I just did it!" sound, all the time, and, it's also why the dizzys'
>are committing suicide.

>Now, if the crank pulley is nice and tight, take it off, (check also, for
>a new locktab here) and check the timing gear on the crank: if the keyway
>is worn and the locktab is new, then the PO probably figured it out, and
>didn't want to spend money on a new crankshaft, and so, he sold the truck
>for whatever he could get.

>Hate to be the bringer of expensive news, but - been there, done that.

>Charles
>P.S. If you've been re-adjusting the valves, you may also want to take a
>look at the pushrods: a few of them could have been bent, since the timing
>isn't consistant.

>>Charles, 

Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't even considered that.  Now that you
mention it, there is about 10-15 deg of play when I move the fan back and
forth before I feel the drag of the engine moving.  Ill be checking it this
weekend.

Dan

------------------------------
[ <- Message 11 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: AKBLACKLEY@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:58:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Beer (not LR related, much)

Alan: Any defamatory statements made by me always automatically exclude the
Listers, who, by virtue of owning and maintaining the worlds greatest 4X4,
have already proved their good taste in all things, including beer. If the
cost of said maintainence forces them to drink cheap fizzy piss water, well
one can only salute their sacrifice and acknowledge that with a lift o'the
glass of something warm and dark. :>) Cheers, and may your hops stay fresh
and your brew never go flat. Andy Blackley

------------------------------
[ <- Message 12 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: ARTuro500@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:59:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: RE: Sticky Steering Wheel

Re: David Hope's sticky steering wheel problem.

I had similar problems w my IIA and solved it thusly. Bicycle shops sell a
wrapping for handle bars (often seen on touring bikes).

This material is tough and nonadhesive. It stretches a bit as you apply it.
Purchase of two kits is plenty to do a steering wheel. I found application a
little awkward around the steering wheel metal spokes, but that was the only
difficulty. Three years later, it still looks and feels good.

Paul Driscoll
65 IIA 88 HT
White Sulphur Springs, MT

------------------------------
[ <- Message 13 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:06:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Beer (not LR related, much)

In a message dated 97-10-10 11:01:25 EDT, you write:

<< and may your hops stay fresh
 and your brew never go flat. >>
 or get contaminated with a wild yeastie! 
Nate

------------------------------
[ <- Message 14 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: AKBLACKLEY@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:09:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Parts

I agree with Mark regarding Rovers North. When I started my Land Rover fever
they were very helpful, and almost always have the correct part in stock. But
they are pricey. I have not used Europoarts, but go directly to the UK. As I
ve posted before I have found Famous Four in Louth, Lincs. UK to be very
helpful, reasonably priced (doggone cheap in many instances) and they ship by
UPS. Typically I send them an order inquiry by email, they send me a quote
back about 24 hrs. later, I then confirm by email or telephone and the stuff
arrives at my door (in NE Ohio) in about a week or less. One less middleman
to deal with. Others have reported similar success with this and other
companies that advetise in LROI. Cheers. Andy Blackley  

------------------------------
[ <- Message 15 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:46:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Dan Prasada-Rao (301)757-1479 X26" <prasadaraodp.nimitz@NAVAIR.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Distributor Self Destruct/Engine Noise HELP!!

>Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 16:22:00 -0700
>From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
>Subject: Re: Distributor Self Destruct/Engine Noise HELP!!

>Well, this isn't particularly specific, but I'd be wondering abouteither
>the distibutor gear/shaft assembly (and its associated gearing
>on the camshaft).

That's what I thought the first time.  I checked it and all seemed well
except the coupling gear for the dist. which I replaced.

>Given the engine noise I wonder if the distributor is actually just
>revealing a more fundamental problem in the cam (or engine rotation
>generally).

>Are the rotor "snaps" erratic or equally spaced/timed?

They are equally spaced and occur about 20 deg before the points open.

>Did the prior distributors also behave this way?

Yes, they did but not as cosistent as it does now.

>cheers,

>Jeremy

I'm thinking about pulling the timing cover and checking things out up
there.  The dist drive gear, coupling, and cam gear for dist all seem fine.

Thanks for the response.

Dan

------------------------------
[ <- Message 16 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: Andy Phillips <AnPi@serviceteam.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Parts
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:17:35 +0100

Just to say I've found Famous Four to be a trouble free supplier of
parts too.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	AKBLACKLEY@aol.com [SMTP:AKBLACKLEY@aol.com]
> Sent:	Friday, October 10, 1997 4:09 PM
> To:	lro@playground.sun.com
> Subject:	Parts

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 27 lines)]
> to deal with. Others have reported similar success with this and other
> companies that advetise in LROI. Cheers. Andy Blackley  

------------------------------
[ <- Message 17 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: Autoconv@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:47:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: splines (reply)

Mike

When talking about 10 or 24 spline one is generally refering to the diff end
of the shaft, it was this I meant.

Regards
Dave Ashcroft

------------------------------
[ <- Message 18 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:52:20 -0700
From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Subject: Re: Beer (not LR related, much)

> << and may your hops stay fresh
>  and your brew never go flat. >>
>  or get contaminated with a wild yeastie!

Unless you like Lambics :)

cheers

Jeremy

------------------------------
[ <- Message 19 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:58:09 -0700
From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Subject: Re: IIa won't run...HELP!!!

Christopher H. Dow wrote:

> Brian Cramer wrote:
> > My newly purchased IIa starts and idles fine, but after driving along a
> > mile, or two the engine starts missing and eventually dies. It won't
> > restart right away. It cranks, but doesn't fire up. After sitting for a
> > little while, it starts, and drives only to miss and stall again. Any ideas?

> Coil, Distributor cap, and fuel have all been mentioned, and my
> experience would lead me to those three conclusions.  The coil is cheap,
> and the distributor cap is easy to check, so try them first.  Then, if
> that doesn't work, look at the fuel system (just simple sorting by
> ease-of-test, and cost).

Actually I'd look at the fuel system first on the visual side.. especially
if you have a see through filter (might even be worth fitting).  Air drawn into
the fuel
system will produce this symptom... sort of a dynamic vapor lock.  Check
for tight connections all along the fuel delivery route.

How long will it idle and what happens if you manually rev it (manipulate the
throttle linkage?

cheers,

Jeremy

------------------------------
[ <- Message 20 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: RoverNut@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:06:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: 

In a message dated 97-10-10 07:02:25 EDT, you write:

<< << The steering wheel (the old style) on my 64 llA gets sticky when wet
and 
  leaves black deposits on my hands.  Is there any cure for this?
   >> >>

Get a lace up steering wheel cover. Problem solved.

Alex Maiolo
69IIa
89RR
93NAS110

------------------------------
[ <- Message 21 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:15:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: gpool@pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: Re: Parts

AndyB said:

[snip]
>ve posted before I have found Famous Four in Louth, Lincs. UK to be very
>helpful, reasonably priced (doggone cheap in many instances) and they ship by
>UPS. Typically I send them an order inquiry by email, they send me a quote
[snip]

I have not ordered overseas from FamFour but have heard only good things
from those here and in the UK who've dealt with them.  My experience was a
visit to the premises last November.  Funky place, pretty much of a repair
shop with a big store room and a little showroom.  Small outside lot,
crammed with projects and breakers.  Hard to find, in an old industrial
area.  Great blokes who are friendly and accommodating.  I hunted through
the store rooms and shops with one of the fellows for interesting bits.  I
bought a big set of Raydyot driving lamps and some UK-style D90 back-up
lamps at amazing prices.  They gave me a couple of old UK reg plates, one
old silver on black and one newer black on yellow.  Tried to get me
interested in buying what had to be the biggest capstan winch ever put on a
Land-Rover.  Had to weigh more than the engine!

Although the stock levels are modest, one great feature of this place is its
direct connection with Peter Hobson Land Rover (a few miles away) which will
not sell to you directly.  I toured PHLR.  This was a guided tour and I was
not allowed to bring in a camera.  Only got to go in at all after a
third-degree to make sure I was not some sort of spy or something!  Pretty
strange.  But my god the stock of cool stuff in that place!  Had shelves of
NOS (new, old stock) obsolete genuine parts and other interesting bits.
Several dozen Fairey free-wheeling hubs, brand new (out of production since
Superwinch took over Fairey).  I'd have bought a couple of sets (through
FamFour, of course) but they were--alas--24-spline only.

PHLR has a huge shop which apparently does restoration work and rebuilds of
wrecked or faulty new LRs (?)  Lots going on in there!  Lots of new RRs.
Out back, some very interesting vehicles.  A beautifully restored 101 FC.  A
very original and complete but unrestored SIIB (?) FC Carmichael Fire
Tender.  Best of all, two (very derelict) Land Rover 100s (yes, 100s).  True
prototype stuff as one had a fabricated Defender-style windscreen frame and
the other had a Series III type.

The one time in my life that I wished I had a spy camera!

Cheers,

Granny who's in no way connected with Famous Four or Peter Hobson or anyone else

------------------------------
[ <- Message 22 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:25:44 -0400
From: "Jeffrey A. Berg" <jberg@hearstnewmedia.com>
Subject: FINSUPdate: Repair follies.

I guess it's time to come clean. The sordid details are bound to become
common knowledge anywhow--at least once the next OVLR rag hits the
mailboxes. Besides there are lessons to be learned from all of this so pay
attention and learn them well...

It's been a rather pricey month of Rover ownership. It all started at
British Invasion in Stowe when  I decided to "treat" FINSUP to a set of
genuine equipment bumper over riders. These were installed (in my parents
driveway so I had the use of my 1/2" drill) without a hitch. While I was a
bit dirty, I decided to do an oil change for the engine and overdrive and a
90 weight top-off for the rest prior to the Mid-Atlantic Rally.  Everything
was looking good. That is until I pulled out of the driveway to run an
errand--that's when the the horrible hissing sound began to come from the
brake tower.

Rule #1: Never do nice things for your Rover--it resents them. It's kind of
like buying your significant other (assuming Rover ownweship allows you
enough time and money for such pursuits) a present to make up for the
neglect she's suffered while you're out wrenching (or winching) with the
Rover.

Doug Main diagnosed (correctly as it turns out) a bad brake servo. Charlie
Haigh confirmed it by phone, and I ordered ordered one up. While I had
Charlie on the phone I also ordered a set of Lucas Speedlead wires. Many of
you know about the embarassment I suffered in Lake Ontario due to poor
fitting wires.

I got the servo installed without too much trouble (didn't even have to
pull the wing) losing only 1 socket (it might still be under the steering
box) and a bent cotter pin in the process of trying to reinstall the bent
cotter pin. (The socket was knocked off the wing by my elbow while cursing
at the bent cotter pin's refusal to slide into place.) Of course losing the
cotter pin meant I had to drive 30 minutes to Home Depot for bits before I
could seal up the pedal tower. (It being a Sunday, and everything local to
the folks save "cotterless" Caldor is closed on Sunday.) I was smart about
though. Having driven the distance, I bought several cotter keys and a
couple of hitch (clevis) pins that looked like they'd do a better job. Once
home, the hitch pin slid into place in about 4 seconds and all was well. I
popped the wires in place, put the bonnet back on, and was ready for the
upcoming Middy.

One exciting adventure on the way to the Middy.*BANG*--a very sharp
backfire. FINSUP was running rough and the engine wasn't at full power. I
*thought* I knew what caused it--but it seemed so much worse than last
time. Pulling over I quickly confirmed my diagnosis. One of the Speedleads
had fallen off. The *worse* was caused by a second one being very loose.
Having gotten used to the sloppy fit of the old wires, I'd neglected to
push the new ones down until they clicked. Thirty seconds later I was back
on the road with all four wires firmly seated. (And a mental note to buy a
pair of the pliers for pulling and installing these wires.)

All went well at the Mid-Atlantic. FINSUP ran well. Wasn't bothered by the
water. I bought a set of "rock sliders" from Stuart Moore (ignoring rule
#1) to replace thesill panels that got mangled at the Downeast. Only
apparent damage at the end of the weekend was a cracked Hella H4 headlamp
(warm light, cold water--leave lights off unless necessary!), something
keeping the parking brake from working (mud?), and a clogged radiator. I
washed much of the gunk out, but she still ran warm on the way home. What
she needed was a good pressure wash.

Monday I was back at the folks house. Plan was to pressure wash the
underside, clean out the K&N filters, engine bay and dismantle and clean
the brakes and tranny brake. I took care of the radiator, engine bay and
filters first. While washing the underside I noticed something kind of
disturbing--one of the side steps which had been previously bent in Maine
was not pushed into the side of the fuel tank. The two pieces of the tank
bottom had seperated. Hmmm, that could have been bad...

Making a mental note to price out a new fuel tank (no sense taking
chances!) I continued the washing process. The real fun began when I washed
the fuel tank as apparently the only thing keeping it sealed was the layer
of mud caked onto it. Gasoline began to pour out of the tank just about the
time my father pulled up. Noticing my problem, he offered the following
helpful advice: "Gasoline will damage the coating on the driveway you
know."  Fortunately, I hadn't stopped to fill up on the way, so most of the
gas made it into an empty 5 gal. gas can.

Rule #2: If you're going to ignore Rule #1 don't ignore the Prime Directive
at the same time. The Prime Directive of course being that one should never
wash a Land-Rover with a hose--that's what water crossings are for!

I ordered a new stainless steel tank from D.A.P. It arrived the next day.
Yesterday I decided to "take the day off" (consultantspeak for no client
booked) and get FINSUP back on the road. The plan was to install the gas
tank in the morning and deal with the brakes after lunch.

Step one was to remove the mangled step. Were it not for the distinct smell
of gasoline, I might have been tempted to use a sawzall or grinder--a sure
solution for a number of my problems, both Rover and otherwise. Instead I
removed each of the rusty bolts--including the one imbedded into the side
of the tank. Estimated time 10 minutes. Actual time 1.5 hours. (An average
of 30 minutes per bolt.)

And lets not forget the time I wasted unbolting the filler hose cover
behind the seats (remember, I have the tool box there) and bending
(destroying) it in an attempt to pull it out around the seat belt retractor
bracket which is welded to the roll cage. Of course, this was before I
realized that I didn't need to remove *that* cover at all--the one I wanted
to remove was under the passenger seat. Call that another hour or so.

Finally the old tank was out. Time for a quick lunch, then an evaluation of
what bits to buy at the hardware store. Mom had errands in town too, so
this wasn't a quick trip.  Back at it--convinced that I'm only an hour away
from starting her up.

I had to mount the old sender unit and output elbow on the new tank. The
output pipe *just* fits into the tank--if you use the cork gasket. I had
originally planned to use RTV, but you need the thickness of the gasket. As
I hadn't ordered a gasket and mine was pretty firm, I "broke the rules" by
using an RTV coated cork gasket. As a result, the tiny little 8/32 bolts
I'd purchased wouldn't grab with spring washers in place. "Oh well, the RTV
is doing the real work."

Time to bolt the new tank in place. I'm not sure what was out of
square--the new tank or my tank mounts--but it took a bit of persuasion,
and an 8' pipe clamp (well I only needed about 3' of it!) to get the thing
to line up with the mounting holes. My helper for the parts that required
an extra set of eyes or hands was my sainted mother--who isn't even strong
enough to turn the release valve on the floor jack. In the end Dad was
there too, helping out with questions like "What's holding it up? Couldn't
you just..."

12 hours (including lunch and shopping) later the new tank is in place,
connected, and only lacking three bolts. (Oh, and I *fixed* a 90 weight
leak from the rear hub by tapping the hub cap firmly back into place.)

The plan for Saturday is to install the last three bolts (longer!) with
spacers at the aft end. There's no way the mounting flange on the tank is
going to be flush with the mounting bracket on the frame--it wasn't on the
original tank either. As long as I'm still at it, I'm going to remount the
output elbow using couple of slightly longer 8/32 bolts--I'm not happy with
the shallow bite of the existing ones or the lack of a spring washer.

Then I can finally tear apart the tranny brake and maybe clean the regular
brakes--unless of course I didn't actually "fix" that leak in the rear
hub...

...or maybe I'll just swing by the dealership and put myself into hock for
a D90. (NOT!)

RoverOn!

jeff

==
Jeffrey A. Berg
Macintosh Systems Consultant
Phone     (212) 649-2322
FAX        (212) 957-8524
mailto:jberg@hearstnewmedia.com

To report HNMC Macintosh problems use
mailto:support@hearstnewmedia.com
Remember, the subject line must include
NMC MAC "Brief Description"

------------------------------
[ <- Message 23 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:27:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Russ Wilson <rwilson@usaor.net>
Subject: Re[2]: clutch question

>I'm looking for a decent rear tub for my 88, willing to spend about 100-150
>dollars for a striaght one, without lots of corrosion. MD/DC/VA/PA/WV
>preferred.
>thanks
>DaveB
>dbobeck@ushmm.org

Dave, check in Pete's backyard.  I seem to remember a rather straight, nice
looking tub just sitting there.

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

Fort Pitt Land Rover Group
Pittsburgh's Smallest, Biggest, Best, Worst, and Only Land Rover Club

------------------------------
[ <- Message 24 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: Hoot6@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:01:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Referral to Northern Virginia sand blaster for axle and prop shaft

I would appreciate a referral to a firm which would sandblast a rusty
Salisbury axle casing and propeller shaft in the Northern Virginia area.

------------------------------
[ <- Message 25 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: QROVER80@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:08:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Cheep 2.25 motors for sale

I understand about the prohibition on "commercial" list postings But...... As
some of you may know I am in the UK this month. I have an opertunity to
aquire a LOT of ex military 2.25 motors. These were mostly good running
takeouts from diesel conversions. These are complete motors carb,
distributer, starter etc. Alas many of them may turn out to be 24v :-(
I have a means of returning them to the US. ( Baltimore ) BUT I would like to
get some idea of the size of the demand. How many of you would be interested
in a 2.25 cheep? I am thinking that I would be able to sell them in the $350
to $400 range. If I don't get a lot of response I will just buy 5 or 10 and
see how it goes. The advantage is that while I am here I will be able to sort
through and choose the better ones.
Also any body want Salisbury rears ? For about $300 ? Drum to drum :-)  Same
deal.
Rgds Quintin Aspin 
from the jolly old........
Obviously flying without the benifit of a spell checker. :-(

------------------------------
[ <- Message 26 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:20:28 -0700
From: matt nelson <nelsml73@snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu>
Subject: Pioneer Tools, British surplus etc.

If anyone here is interested, the sportsman's guide has(still) british
"jeep" tools, those like the ones sold in the Roversnorth catalog. only
they are cheaper, $20 for the pick and shovel set.

I ordered two last week after I saw them in a local surplus store for
$20 a piece.  They are in like new-good condition, the pick heads are
sheffield and date from WW2, the handles were from the 50s and 60s some
from the 80s. it looks like they were stored in a war reserve as the
ones I saw had never been used, just shelfworn.

The "guide" also has british army kit like sleeping bags(including
arctic ones.) and those neat WW2 canteens with the wool covers shoulder
straps and cork tops, they are only $5 a piece. they have black plastic
british 5 gallon water cans too for $10. 

they used to have Swiss army jerricans for $15, these were the nicest
Jerricans I've seen, much nicer than US,british,russian,east german and
german WW2 ones i've seen.(I've got quite a collection going...)

The swiss ones are of the typical european type with the lever closed
small top...

If anyone is interested in these things i'd call them up

the shovel is h7-23737
pick h7-23738
5 gal water plastic can h7-17676

I dont know the other #s

They also have british webbing equiptment and dpm clothes, lots of
camping gear tools night vision, hunting shooting supplies etc etc etc

I'm not connected with them in any way, I'm just a satisfied customer
who has recently picked up some nead cheap accessories.

their phone # is1-800-888-3006

they have a website too but its useless

Matt Nelson

------------------------------
[ <- Message 27 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 14:22:15 EST
Subject: Re[3]: clutch question

>Dave, check in Pete's backyard.  I seem to remember a rather straight, nice
>looking tub just sitting there.

yeah right. it's taken.
otherwise wes woulda grabbed it

------------------------------
[ <- Message 28 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 17:59:05 -0300
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: FINSUPdate: Repair follies.

Jeffrey A. Berg wrote:
> I guess it's time to come clean. The sordid details are bound to become
> common knowledge anywhow--at least once the next OVLR rag hits the
> mailboxes. Besides there are lessons to be learned from all of this so pay
> attention and learn them well...
> It's been a rather pricey month of Rover ownership. It all started at
> British Invasion in Stowe when  I decided to "treat" FINSUP to a set of

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 157 lines)]
> Remember, the subject line must include
> NMC MAC "Brief Description"
Jeff where did you find  the panel bending rocks at Down East? and as
for the gas tank problem you should have prebent it on those rocks.
Thats why Muddy has a one gallon dent in its tank just to avoid future
nasties. Yeah Right      you never know where high tension leads.
John
muddy.....109  2dr

------------------------------
[ <- Message 29 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:08:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Roll cages

Steve Fullwood wrote:
>If anyone knows of pictures on the web of roll cages that would also be
>appreciated.

Well, it's not the web, but the ARC Yearbook has 20-30 pages on design and 
what's acceptable to the scruitneers.  As most are indeed home built, it 
tells how to build one and what guages of pipe are acceptable.  Cheers

      *---"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                  | 
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
      |   "The oldest Rover-marque club in the Americas"   |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730    |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 757-622-7054 (Day) |
      |    757-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 757-622-7056    |
      |                                                    |
      *---1972 Series III 88"-----1996 Discovery SE-7(m)---*

------------------------------
[ <- Message 30 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:08:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: "Emergency"

As long as we're on this thread (I think it was called "Emergency" in 
original prime-time, and "Squad-51" in re-runs and syndication), there's a 
fire department in Virginia that has a nice, shiny new Defender.  The 
chief's vehicle for the Highland County volunteer fire department is a '96 
NAS spec. If you're ever passing through Monterey on US 250 or 220, check it 
out.

Cheers

      *---"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                  | 
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.    |
      |   "The oldest Rover-marque club in the Americas"   |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730    |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 757-622-7054 (Day) |
      |    757-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 757-622-7056    |
      |                                                    |
      *---1972 Series III 88"-----1996 Discovery SE-7(m)---*

------------------------------
[ <- Message 31 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Subject: Thanksgiving with no Landy
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:17:00 -0700

Well, its the beginning of the Thanksgiving Long Weekend here in Canada
and I was hoping to have The Beast on the road but it looks like it
won't happen :-(

I was hoping to take the Rover on this weekend's scuba diving trip to
Gabriola Island but I guess I'll have to cram 300 lbs. of salty dive
gear in the trunk of the 533i.

Have a good weekend all & Happy Thanksgiving to all the Canadians on the
list!  The Yanks celebrate theirs about a month later.  Guess that's
because their harvest season lasts a little longer farther south.

Catch up on all the mail on Tuesday.

Paul Quin
1961 Series II 88 (under construction)
Victoria, BC  Canada

------------------------------
[ <- Message 32 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: ASFCO@worldnet.att.net
Subject: engine guard 
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:40:46 +0000

Anybody on the list have first hand experience with an engine pre-luber
called Engine Guard??
looks like a good idea
see http://www.engineguard.com 
Rgds
Steve Bradke       96 Discovery
WA2GMC             72 S lll 88 (For Sale)
                   68 S lla 88                 

------------------------------
[ <- Message 33 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: cascardo@ix.netcom.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:10:32 -0400
Subject: Mantec intake install

Can someone out there post/repost pointers on installing the Mantec air
intake on a NAS d90.

Couple of questions I see looking at the thing:

1) How far down do you hack saw the trumpet on the air filter housings. 
2) Do you wedge the Pre cleaner (the top canister) into the tube or do
you attach with screws (there are no predrilled holes in the tube to
accept the top canister).

Thanks.

Lucas.
d90 sw

------------------------------
[ <- Message 34 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:18:10 -0500 (EST)
From: David Scheidt <david@math.earlham.edu>
Subject: Re: FINSUPdate: Repair follies.

On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Jeffrey A. Berg wrote:

> It's been a rather pricey month of Rover ownership. It all started at

You too?

> Rule #1: Never do nice things for your Rover--it resents them. It's kind of
> like buying your significant other (assuming Rover ownweship allows you
> enough time and money for such pursuits) a present to make up for the
> neglect she's suffered while you're out wrenching (or winching) with the
> Rover.
> output pipe *just* fits into the tank--if you use the cork gasket. I had
> originally planned to use RTV, but you need the thickness of the gasket. As
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 13 lines)]
> I'd purchased wouldn't grab with spring washers in place. "Oh well, the RTV
> is doing the real work."

RTV disolves in gasoline.  this may be bad.  

David Scheidt
--------
David_Scheidt@math.earlham.edu

yip yip yip yap yap yak yap yip *BANG*  -- no terrier

------------------------------
[ <- Message 35 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:17:55 -0400
From: David Cockey <dcockey@tir.com>
Subject: Axle Ratios (was:Used Winch wanted)

>  I also need some help to figure out what ratio the diff's are in my
> 88
> axles.  It is my understanding that two differant diff's where used.

All series LRs other than extremely early SIs and Stage Ones had 4.7
axles from the factory. (Stage One used 3.54). Rover car ring and pinion
with  4.3, 3.9 or 3.54 ratio are a straight swap into Rover axles.

To check axle ratio:
Jack up one front wheel while in 2wd (with FWH engaged). Or jack up one
rear wheel while in 2wd and neutral with parking brake off and front
wheels blocked.
Mark prop shaft.
Turn wheel two revolutions while counting prop shaft revolutions.
Number of prop shaft revolutions equals axle ratio.

The two turns of the wheel are needed because the other wheel is not
turning, and the differential is averaging the rotation.

Regards,
David Cockey

------------------------------
[ <- Message 36 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:25:13 -0400
From: David Cockey <dcockey@tir.com>
Subject: Re: Brake fluid redux

> If water
> is somehow finding its way in (with silicone), then you don't have a
> braking
> system that is operational.

The other way water could get in is through condensation. Water can
condense out of the air in the resevoir and sink to the bottom of the
resevoir. Not much in a single day, but over several years it could be
enough to cause trouble. A modern resevoir with a rubber cover over the
fluid largely eliminates this problem.

Regards,
David Cockey

------------------------------
[ <- Message 37 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:35:44 -0400
From: Brian Cramer <defender@uscom.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_IIa_won=B4t_run...HELP!!!?=

Thanks for your help!!

At 03:30 PM 10/10/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi Greg!
>I had a similar problem on holiday in Croatia.
>First you have too be sure there is NO air in your fuelsys.
>Now it might be running. If not it should be a fuelpump or fuelinjector
>problem. In my case it was the low-pressure-part of the CAV. A little
>coverplate was not absolutely airproof (i=B4m not very well in english)

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 15 lines)]
>Bye
>Bernd

------------------------------
[ <- Message 38 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:46:46 -0700
From: Todd_Wilson@ccmail.columbia.com (Todd Wilson)
Subject: Diesel Woes.....

     
     I could use some help trouble shooting a problem with my truck.
     
     It's a 1967 109 sw and it has a 2.5 liter turbo diesel. It is making 
     an unnerving knock that increases with engine speed. At idle it puts 
     out a little smoke but if I rev the engine, It billows lightish smoke. 
     
     A rover mechanic in the UK suggested an injector stuck open. Slacken 
     the feed line and the injector that doesn't change how the engine runs 
     is the culprit. I have one spare new injector. after loosening the 
     feed lines one at a time, it was the rear most injector that had the 
     least affect on running. I swapped it out noting that the little wire 
     tip thing was about the same lengh on the injector coming out as the 
     new one i was planning to install. I proceeded with the swap and 
     started the truck. No difference.
     
     thoughts, comments
     
     yours
     tew

------------------------------
[ <- Message 39 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:03:53 -0300
From: john cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Diesel Woes.....

Todd Wilson wrote:
>      I could use some help trouble shooting a problem with my truck.
>      It's a 1967 109 sw and it has a 2.5 liter turbo diesel. It is making
>      an unnerving knock that increases with engine speed. At idle it puts
>      out a little smoke but if I rev the engine, It billows lightish smoke.

	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 24 lines)]
>      yours
>      tew
Sounds like your timing has changed check the condition of the belt( not 
the fan belt)  best of luck      John

------------------------------
[ <- Message 40 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

From: Solihull@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:47:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: NAS D110 FS in Metro Atlanta

I saw this in the Atlanta Constitution this week: 1993 Defender 110, 49k
miles, asking $33,900. I called him and he said it came out of Texas. He owns
a D90, but is in the car business and just wants to move the 110. I haven't
seen it, but the price seems a little low for the limited edition 110s. I
usually see them go for closer to $40K. I thought I'd share this with the
list. I'd be available to go check it out. The number is (770)935-5774. If
you call, please tell him I told you about it. I have no interest in this
truck, and haven't seen it. 
Cheers!!
John Dillingham
near Canton, GA
KF4NAS     LROA #1095
73 s3 swb 25902676b DD "Pansy"
72 s3 swb 25900502a rusted, in suspended animation
Looking for a P5 project, well, OK, or a P6 or another SD1
Vintage Rover Service, since 1994, where we say:
Land Rovers for Agriculture!
Land Rovers for Industry!
Land Rovers for Recreation!
Land Rovers forever!! D.V.

------------------------------
[ <- Message 41 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:11:19 -0600
From: @info2000.net
Subject: EURO PARTS

Euro Parts is one of the best parts suppliers here in the U.S. 
Dealing with Euro Parts I have saved alot of money. There is'nt any 
other parts supplier here in the U.S. that can meet there prices. I have
purchased both genuine and aftermarket and both are high quality parts.
You can always get through on the phone. (unlike RN)

CC

------------------------------
[ <- Message 42 -> end | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

  END OF * LIST DIGEST 
 Input:  messages 41 lines 1886 [forwarded 332 whitespace 409]
 Output: lines 1311 [content 874  forwarded 136 (cut  196) whitespace 356]

[ First Message | Table of Contents | <- Digest 971011 -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]


Back Forward

Photos & text Copyright 1990-2011 Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved.
Digest Messages Copyright 1990-2011 by the original poster or/and Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved.