Land Rover Owner Message Digest Contents

[ First Message Last | Table of Contents | <- Digest -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Send Submissions Land-Rover-Owner@Land-Rover.Team.Net

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:05:00 +0100
From: "Geoffrey Said" <Geoffrey.Said@magnet.mt>
Subject: Oil consumption.

May I ask this question?

I a 2.25l Rover Engine does a milage of around 150 miles and consumes about a 
coke bottle and a half of oil, is it normal?

The engine does not smoke blue, those not consume water and there are no major 
leakages, just some drops.  

Also where I live (Malta) is full of slopes and this requires many gearchanging 
which affect the engine as it must be kept under pressure.

Sorry for reasking the question about oil but I was not totally convinced by the 
previous answers.

Geoffrey
Proud Landrover Owner
1979 Series III 109"

------------------------------

From: ericz@cloud9.net
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:21:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Kangaroo-bars vs bull bars: A working definition!

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, ewhite2@ALPHA2.CURTIN.EDU.AU wrote:
>Hi again, 
>You are probably right about the banter, although I have spoken to many 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
>case of enonomy coming before nature. I have often wondered what right we 
>have at all to do the damage we do to this magnificent country. 

It all depends on where you are....around here (suburban NY would) the Deer 
population is quite out of hand...much more than the current state of the 
ecosystem can handle.  The high level of development makes any effective hunting 
extremely difficult if not impossible.  As a result, animal strikes are 
increasingly common...causing a significant number of injures and quite a few $$ 
in damages.  Although I'm not recommending going out and running down deer to 
hit with that brand new bumper on your Rover (see, LR content)....a reduction in 
the Deer population would certianly reduce the widespread starvation that 
happens each year.
Your mileage, or ecologicaly outlook, may vary...

Eric

------------------------------

From: ericz@cloud9.net
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:21:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Driveshaft Drama

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, PDoncaster@aol.com wrote:
>How do the drive shafts on a land rover get out of phase?

Its when the 'yokes' are not lined up on the axis about which shaft rotates.  In 
other words, when you take the shaft apart (separate the slip joints or 
splines), the shaft MUST be reassembled properly.

Can somebody explain better?  I'm not sure I'm making sense.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:28:25 -0700
From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: Oil consumption.

Geoffrey Said wrote:
> May I ask this question?
> I a 2.25l Rover Engine does a milage of around 150 miles and consumes about a
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 19 lines)]
> Geoffrey
> Proud Landrover Owner
> 1979 Series III 109"
HI Geoffrey,

Many of us would claim that this is natural oiul consumption for a Land
Rover, but the absence of leaks underside seems to indicate that this is
not due to the solihull in-built oil dispensing characteristics of the
series which are the usual butt of humour in this post - something more
serious seems to be the case.

If the oil is not leaking, it must be burning - such a consumption
cvannot be explained by leaky gaskets and oil escaping to water system
or such, it must be burning. It sounds expensive! 

My own experience would indicate piston rings need replacement - but
others may have good ideas?

Good luck, let us all hear the result.

adrian redmond

------------------------------

From: Lodelane@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:39:26 -0400
Subject: Re: IT LIVES!!!!!!!!!!

Dave,

Congrats!!  Wish I could have been there at its "Rebirth" as I was at its
"Demise" 8*)

Larry Smith
Chester, VA

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 29 Aug 96  7:44:36 EDT
Subject: Re: Driveshaft Drama

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 07:58:09 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Subject: Re: Driveshaft Drama

Eric swears:

>>>  I will NEVER let my driveshafts get out of phase!

Now write that a hundred times on the chalkboard...

Cheers

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 29 Aug 96  7:59:04 EDT
Subject: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:11:00 +0100
From: "Geoffrey Said" <Geoffrey.Said@magnet.mt>
Subject: RE:Re: Oil consumption.

channel6(a)post2.tele.dk:
>Geoffrey Said wrote:

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 31 lines)]
>others may have good ideas?
>Good luck, let us all hear the result.
>adrian redmond

I must also add that the sump does leak as it is always covered with oil and 
also from the oil filler tube some white smoke comes out.

Geoffrey

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:31:04 -0700
From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Subject: Heater adjustment

I have two series III, both with the same problem -

The hot/cold lever works ok at one end, but is springy at the other,
never quite reaching the opposite setting. This means that the control
offers either hot to very hot or cool to freezing, but never the entire
range.

Every witner/suummer I adjust the wire clamp at the valve on top of the
block to allow me to use the seasons most desireable temperature!

All components are original and without visible faults

any ideas

adrian redmond

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:33:39 -0400
From: Nathan Dunsmore <dunsmo19@us.net>
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus wrote:
> 109 2-door Goes where it's pointed, but after a while on the highway the
> steering starts to feel, as best I can describe, "swoopy".
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> steering starts to feel, as best I can describe, "swoopy".
> You turn the wheel, it starts to turn, then it TURNS. Odd.

> THis has got me stumped - any ideas?

Alan,

Any chance your dragging a brake shoe?
-- 
Nate Dunsmore
Rocking Horse Farm
Boring, MD 21020
dunsmo19@us.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 09:27:26 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Subject: Re: Heater adjustment

I have two series III, both with the same problem -

The hot/cold lever works ok at one end, but is springy at the other,
never quite reaching the opposite setting. This means that the control
offers either hot to very hot or cool to freezing, but never the entire
range.

Every witner/suummer I adjust the wire clamp at the valve on top of the
block to allow me to use the seasons most desireable temperature!

All components are original and without visible faults

any ideas

adrian redmond

Well, Adrian, my SIII's heater worked rather nicely when I bought the truck last
year, 'cept for the fact that the defrost/cab flaps were stuck and the cable to 
the valve was very stiff. I merely disconnected the cable to the valve and 
opened the windows to control the temperature. Worked like a charm. On really 
cold days the windows remained closed and the drafts took care of temperature 
control. Occasionally the heater blower would cut out and I would have to bum 
the ignition key to get it working again. Also the flaps were conveniently stuck
between defrost and cab so that I was always able to get both. I have since 
bought a new lower dash (with no rust holes) and a new control cable for the 
flaps. The flaps don't seal to well, and I suspect that it won't control the 
flow any better. It does blow quite a bit more volume now thanks to new seals, 
and a "non-swiss cheese" lower dash. The control cables are cheap, so it might 
be worth it to buy a new one. Also check to see that the cable isn't slipping 
aat the handle end. Sometimes they move with the handle part of the way, and 
then slip at a certain point during their travel. It really is quite a 
difference how easily the new cable moves.

Cheers

Dave 
Not requiring heat at the moment

------------------------------

From: ericz@cloud9.net
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:27:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

On 29 Aug 96, Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com> 
wrote:

>I wil say that steering was a bit sloppy till a few days ago, when I found and 
>corrected a case of loose wheel bearings.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>corrected a case of loose wheel bearings.
>THis has got me stumped - any ideas?

Alignment?  Wrong amount of toe-in (or out, actually) would induce a 'swoopy' 
feeling...i.e. not inherently stable.

Just a thought.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 09:38:48 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

Alan was just "wandering":

>>>109 2-door Goes where it's pointed, but after a while on the highway the 
steering starts to feel, as best I can describe, "swoopy".

>>>You turn the wheel, it starts to turn, then it TURNS. Odd.
 the relay's a bit 
sloppy but not horrid 

    Isn't there a preload check you can do on the relay? 

>>and th alignment is correct. Tires are radial and at 
about 34 PSI or so. Steerig box does move a bit, but it always has.

    Your steering box REALLY should be bolted down rock tight. Try tightening 
all the fixings including those to the bulkhead on both sides of the truck. I 
thought I had mine down tight, and that it was just moving the bulkhead becaus 
there were no other body parts on to keep the bulkhead from moving. Then I 
tightened the big bulkhead to chassis bolt...

>>tHis has got me stumped - any ideas?
 
jack up the front wheels of the truck and turn the wheel from lock to lock to 
see if you can feel it binding. If it binds it may be the adjustment on the side
of the box. Have somebody do it while you watch (!) and look especially at the 
relay to see what it's doing. My guess is the loose steering box. The 
bulkhead/or steering box is taking the strain of the wheels trying to turn, and 
then at a certain point it moves as far as it can and then the wheels REALLY 
turn. Make sense? Form what little I know about them, worn steering relays seem 
to cause wander more than anything. They won't cause play in the steering wheel,
unless the relay shaft is twisting or the arms are stripping their splines.

------------------------------

From: QROVER80@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:44:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

 
Steering trouble. 
Do you by any chance have free wheel hubs?
I have a 80" that I have been flat towing all over the eastern US for the
past couple of years and I have noticed an interesting phenomena. I have been
towing it with the rear drive shaft disconnected and the FWH's on the front
in the UNLOCKED position. I have noticed that although the steering is OK (
read vague but not malevolent ) when I leave home often by the time I reach
my destination the steering has "stiffened" up considerably. I.E., It won't
self center. As I drive the 80 around with the hubs LOCKED the steering
eventually loosens up. As near as I have been able to determine this
phenomena is caused by the swivel pin bearings seizing up for lack of
lubrication. I would recommend a couple of things
 1) how much oil is in the swivel ball housings? Any? OIL?
 2) if you have fwh's lock those devils for a while ( there is a reason that
Rover never made them )   
 3) What is the condition of the swivel pin bushings? ( jack up the truck ((I
know but I like trucks)) and check for play at the 6 and 12 o- clock
positions, more than very little play is probably too much
 While you are at it is there any oil in the steering relay?

Rgds Quintin Aspin
1951 80" ( now known as "Tortoise"
1957 107"
lots of IIa's

------------------------------

Date: 29 Aug 96 10:04:47 EDT
From: Rob Dennis <73363.427@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Series Database

        I noticed one inconsistency:  There are no pre '64 LRs in the list,
but one vehicle is listed as a IIa.  I think the IIa came out earlier than
'64, so that must be a mistake--either that or I'm full of it :-). <<

I think what you meant to say was that series II (not IIa) were made prior to
1964. The earliest vehicle on John's list was 1964, and so there couldn't be a
series II on that list.

Series II : 1958-1961
Series IIa: 1961-1971
Series III: 1971-1984

  
     -------------------       
    |         |         |
    | _ _ ____|____ _ _ |       Rob Dennis
  O |[___|>>>>>>>>>|___]| O     73363.427@Compuserve.com
   \____===_=====_===____/      Atlanta, GA USA
   |oo   |(_)###(_)|   oo|      (404) 875-4537
   |     |   ###   |     |      
   |     | ####### |     |      1972 SerIII 88
   |_____|_#######_|_____|      1990 RangeRover
  [_______________________]     1996 Discovery
     EEEI           EEEI
 

Send By: Rob Dennis 73363.427@Compuserve.com
 On 29-Aug-1996

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:29:02 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (Mike Smith)
Subject: Re: Diffs

Fellow Rover nut writes...
>Has anybody had any experience with positive locking diffs of detroit lockers?
>for about 300$ US.  Any horror stories, words of wisdom, etc...
>Thanks.  Steve Rochna   '72 SIII 88

Steve,
        Price is right. A detroit style locker is a great invention if put
in the proper use. The up side is in certain traction loss situations
you'll get both wheels on the locker axle to apply power, rather than just
one as in an open diff. axle. That helps out a bunch. The down side is that
you have little control when that locker will take hold. It could lock on a
snowy road when you are in a corner and apply power *spin out*, or on a
steep side climb on loose ground *lock and slide the rear downhill*. I've
seen lockers put people in bad positions, but they will also get you out of
some bad positions.
        Air lockers were invented to counter act the bad side of detroit
style lockers, they only lock when you want them too... but they cost about
twice as much. Hope the info. helps your desicion, make sure it is right
for how you use your Rover, and you'll have fun. Any other questions you
can email direct.
        See ya!

From: Mike Smith
East Coast Rover Co.                    207.594.8086
21 Tolman Road  *Rt. 90*                207.594.8120 fax
Warren, Maine 04864                     ecrover@midcoast.com
    Land Rover Service, Sales, Restoration, and More
        Series Coil Chassis Specialists

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:24:53 -0500
From: "John P. Casteel" <jcasteel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

QROVER80@aol.com wrote:
...
>  2) if you have fwh's lock those devils for a while ( there is a reason that
> Rover never made them )

I read somewhere that if you have fwh's you should engage them for 30 miles for every 150 miles driven or 
some such figure.  Is this accurate?  Am I remembering this incorrectly?

John Casteel

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Flame Fodder
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 10:30:00 DST

Bill Leacock and I just spent the last three days, along with my son 
Richard,  "working" for Andy Philpot and "The 4x4 Experience.  We were at 
the Canadian press launch of the Toy Otter RAV4. We spent three days 
offroading and assisting the gentlemen (and ladies) of the press. The only 
thing we broke was the front number plate mountings on three of the RAVs 
(Which we have redesigned for their chief engineer for a small retooling 
cost of about $250K) and an aftermarket towing bracket that interfered with 
the departure angle. Nary a broken halfshaft in sight.

The RAV4 turns out to be a quite capable off road unit, climbing steep sandy 
tracks, fording steams, descending the hills (low range would have been nice 
here) and handling cross axle situations well. though of course not designed 
for extreme conditions, just the unpaved road to the lake and similar 
excursions. We probaly drove as much offroad in the three days as the rest 
of their first years production will do in a lifetime.

 The Toyota Hats are much better quality than the Land Rover Gear hats and 
$19.95 Can. instead of $29.95 Can.  (Of course ours were free).  Does this 
same philosophy apply to their vehicles as well?

Trevor "A 4x4 by any other name is just as much fun" Easton
(Especially when it still belongs to the manufacturer)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 10:28:36 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Subject: How to diagnose overheating problems...

Yesterday, I lamented: 

She was overheating though so I shut her off. There was a bit of antifreeze 
coming out of the front of the head...ugh. I shut it off and sure enough the 
head needed retorquing. 

Well, it's a good thing I had this problem, since it led me to check EVERYTHING,
short of removing the head again. I found a loose temperature sender (the source
of my coolant leak!) both manifolds loose, the head bolts loose, and the 
alternator loose! All that squared away, and the valves readjusted afeter 
retorquing, it still ran in the upper reaches of the temperature guage. I sat 
there for hours scratching my head and trying different "tests" to see if 
something was faulty. At one point the needle climbed up into the red and I let 
it go to see if the engine would show signs of overheating. Nothing. At one 
point I gave up and was sitting in the drivers seat, futzing with the guages and
checking to see if stuff was working. I noticed that when I hit the dash panel 
lights, the tmeperature guage clicke dup a notch. Hmm. OK, Joe Lucas, I'm hot on
your trail...So I diddled the switch alittle more and then watched in amazement 
as the needle bumped its way back into the red. I set the guage cluster down on 
the steering column and went to work hooking up th oil pressure guage. Pressure 
checked out alright, and then i went back to my temeprature problem. The needle 
was on 'N'. That's "normal" for you metal-dashers. I picked up the cluster and 
the need le started climbing again into the red zone. After a bit more head 
scratching it finally dawned on me at close to midnight. The entire gauge 
cluster needed to be grounded. I touched ti back to the steering column, et 
voila! One overheating problem diagnosed and cured in one fell swoop. With all 
due respect to Joe Lucas, so far every problm I've had getting this thing going 
has been due to Lack Of Ground...I'll have to remeber that next time before 
performing the "battery" of tests...

Cheers
Dave 
Not very well grounded

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 07:39:36 -0700
From: cascardo@ix.netcom.com (Lucas Andres Cascardo)
Subject: Couple of D90 questions

Hello all,

I need some help on the following:

1.  On my D90 station wagon I have a trailer wiring plug that has 7 
pins.  Using a test light I found that two pins are hot at the same 
time when I turn on the parking lights.  I am under the impression that 
one pin is for the parking lights and another is a 12v extra line.  Am 
I correct?  If so is one pin specifically dedicated to the parking 
lights (which one)?

2.  I had an air conditioner installed and it was once very cold all of 
the time but it varies (blows both warm and cold air).  I have noticed 
that only when I hear a clicking sound does cold air come out and when 
there is no clicking, just warm air.  Is the condenser switching on and 
off?  Has anyone had this problem?  Any solutions?

Thanks.

Lucas C.  

------------------------------

From: "Mr Ian Stuart" <Ian.Stuart@ed.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:45:04 +0000
Subject: Re: how often to lock FWBs?

Quoting John P. Casteel, from 29 Aug 96

> I read somewhere that if you have fwh's you should engage them for 30
> miles for every 150 miles driven or some such figure.  Is this accurate? 
> Am I remembering this incorrectly?
1 mile in 50, yup.

This does *not* mean that you can leave them unlocked for 3,000 miles 'coz 
you had them locked for the preceding 60 miles!

Me, I alternate the days - 1 day locked, 1 day unlocked...

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
 <http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/> or <http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/>

However strong my opinions are, they are mine and no-one elses.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:35:13 +0000
From: ewhite2@ALPHA2.CURTIN.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: Odd steering - Same here.

When I turn the steering wheel, especially when going slow the wheel 
occaisonally sort of bumps then slips an inch or two- rather worrying. 
Iwonder if it is the steering relayneeding replacing or servicing. From 
the manual it looks as if it could slip...

Chris 

------------------------------

From: "Mr Ian Stuart" <Ian.Stuart@ed.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:20:14 +0000
Subject: Re: Couple of D90 questions

Quoting Lucas Andres Cascardo, from 29 Aug 96

> 1.  On my D90 station wagon I have a trailer wiring plug that has 7 pins.
>  Using a test light I found that two pins are hot at the same time when I
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> If so is one pin specifically dedicated to the parking lights (which
> one)?
The pinouts are:

1: Left-hand indicaror
2: Fog Lamp
3: Earth
4: Right-hand indicator
5: Left-hand tail light
6: Stop lamps
7: Right-hand tail light & numberplate light

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
 <http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/> or <http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/>

However strong my opinions are, they are mine and no-one elses.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:24:50 -0400
From: Nathan Dunsmore <dunsmo19@us.net>
Subject: Re: How to diagnose overheating problems...

Bobeck, David R. wrote:
>  The entire gauge
> cluster needed to be grounded. I touched ti back to the steering column, et
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> has been due to Lack Of Ground...I'll have to remeber that next time before
> performing the "battery" of tests...

This is not just an LR problem.  Most automobile electrical wierdness (i.e. 
gauges acting strangely, starters working poorly, lack of charging etc) is
due to poor grounding/poor contact.  It is always the first thing I check
when something is not working be it the land rover, the tractor, or the
lawnmower.
-- 
Nate Dunsmore
Rocking Horse Farm
Boring, MD 21020
dunsmo19@us.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 16:03:03 UT
From: "Mark Talbot" <Land_Rover@msn.com>
Subject: Another Land ROVER WWW

All, 

surfing today I found WWW.EXTREMETERRAIN.COM. Don't know who it is, but they 
sell a ton of LR genuine stuff. 

Check it out. 

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:00:10 +0300
From: nahari ofir <ofir_n@parker.inter.net.il>
Subject: Re: Rear Brake question reply

At 08:08 AM 8/28/96 -0600, you wrote:
>     rovers north has an excellent instruction sheet you can get from thier 
>     web site. http://www.roversnorth.com  when i did my brakes, one 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 11 lines)]
>     73 88 sw "peggy"
>hi
 tryed myself and can't find rovernorth on the web.
I'm still trying and let you know .
bye 
Ofir

Ofir Nahari

LandRover series 1 80"  1951
(under restoration)
Israel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:21:13 +0300
From: nahari ofir <ofir_n@parker.inter.net.il>
Subject: Re: Series Database

?,1951,I,80,Corajo,bronze green,Emek Hefer,ISRAEL,ur,Israel Border
Patrol,ofir_n@inter.net.il,lro-net,Can't find VIN !please help me look for it. 

------------------------------

From: Bill Cooper <Lovejoy@3wnet.com>
Subject: Series Database
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:38:05 -0400

Here's one more for your database.

1966 Series IIa  88'

Bill Cooper

http://www.3wnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:19:18 -0700
From: gpool@pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: It was How Long?

Bill Cooper said:

>Here's one more for your database.
>1966 Series IIa  88'

Wow!  That gives a whole new meaning to LWB!

Granny

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:20:25 -0500
From: "John P. Casteel" <jcasteel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Series Database

nahari ofir wrote:
> ?,1951,I,80,Corajo,bronze green,Emek Hefer,ISRAEL,ur,Israel Border
> Patrol,ofir_n@inter.net.il,lro-net,Can't find VIN !please help me look for it.

My book says this about the Chassis number (pre 'VIN") on an 80 inch, 
"these can be found on the nearside enfine mounting and on the brass 
plate on the nearside of the bulkhead (the latter were positioned inside 
the cab on later models)."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:26:23 -0700
From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus wrote:
> 109 2-door Goes where it's pointed, but after a while on the highway the
> steering starts to feel, as best I can describe, "swoopy".
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 16 lines)]
> corrected a case of loose wheel bearings.
> THis has got me stumped - any ideas?

I have had similar propblems with my two beasties over the years - no
clear cut answer , but two suggestions -

Once when replacing the steering-rod elbow-joints, I refitted the joint
below the steering box in the wrong position, so that the steering gave
slightly more turn angle to one side than the other, the side which had
two much turn (I forget which) gave precisly that effect which you
descibe but only on sharp turns in that direction.

If the steering is stiff  or disformed in any way, the first part of a
turn will be hard-work, as the natural position of the wheels is on
centre, but once having turned quite a lot, the forward momentum,
especially on bump ground, mat tend to push the steering further in the
turned direction. I found this tendany on my 88, the problem was a
broken steering column bearing - an inexpensive part, but a b**ch to
change if 1. YOU are doing it for the first time 2. the old bearing has
been there for a long time.

If the bearing is replaced, and all slack or backlash is taken up and
eliminated, the tendancy for the truck to "start imagining it's got
servo assisted steering" will probably disappear.

I don't know if this is a help, but I hope you find the solution.

adrian redmond

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:41:42 -0400
From: "Jeffrey A. Berg" <jeff@purpleshark.com>
Subject: Spin on oil filter: Pros & Cons???

With my next oil change just a few (hundred) miles away, and having
expended my stock of cannister type filters, I'm trying to decide if I want
to order more cannister refills or purchase one of the spin-on adaptors.

I know we've been through this debate before, but it's been awhile and I
can't remember the results.  Besides, we might have some "newer" members
who would be interested. So...

How do folks out there feel about using the adaptor and QUALITY (not
discount store) spin-on oil filters.  Specifically, are there any problems
with the set-up that won't be offset by my being more willing to change the
oil, and having filters readily available when I get the urge.

RoverOn!

JAB

==
 Jeffrey A. Berg          Purple Shark Media                 Rowayton, CT

                         jeff@purpleshark.com
                          ==================
               My garden is full of papayas and mangos.
          My dance card is filled with merengues and tangos.
                       Taste for the good life,
                      I can see it no other way.
                                --Jimmy Buffett, Lone Palm (live version)

------------------------------

From: Bill Cooper <Lovejoy@3wnet.com>
Subject: RE: It was How Long?
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:16:19 -0400

>Here's one more for your database.
>1966 Series IIa  88'

Wow!  That gives a whole new meaning to LWB!

Granny

You should try parking it......

Bill

P.S.  Oops.

------------------------------

From: debrown@srp.gov
Date: 29 Aug 96 11:26:31 MST
Subject: Broken half shaft.

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist ~ S.R.P. ~ AM/FM - Graphic Records
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
Hi there!

Yesterday I reported a "bang" and then no motion... Well, several
guessed the half shaft. You were correct! I pulled both of them out this
morning, and pulled off the prop shaft as well, so nothing should be
turning inside there now. Sure feels weird turning corners in front
wheel drive.

The short side half shaft broke, and luckily, I have a spare short side!
However... The shaft was very obviously twisted and the break itself is
over 8" long! (20 CM) The shaft is also bent about 4" from the outside
end, and is worn down about .15" at this point. (Really chewed up!) I
can't wait to open her up and see what other damage was done! It surely
must have torn something else up. I may need to replace the whole diff,
case and all! :-(

The half shaft looks like it was cast in 2 pieces? There's a "seam"
running down both halves. Is this "normal?" It broke along this "seam."

Thanks to all who helped diagnose this, and Lisa for offering rides or
what ever else may be needed. It is very comforting to know that none of
us is "alone" in the "Land Rover experience."

All of the sudden that wobbly front U-joint is far more urgent on my "to
do" list!

Best regards, Dave Brown.

#=======#         _________         "What lies behind us and what lies
|__|__|__\___    //__/__|__\___    before us are tiny matters compared
| _|  |   |_ |}  \__ - ____ - _|}  to what lies within us."
"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                     Ralph Waldo Emerson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:03:41 +0200
From: Jan Schokker <janjan@xs4all.nl>
Subject: Re: How do I get the head off?

At 21:51 28-08-96 -0700, adrian redmond wrote:

-- and use a peice of fine wire to see if the pisrton is down - roll the
-- car to move the piston down, and fill the cylinder with oil!" then
-- replace the plug/injector, and slowly roll the car in gear so that the
-- piston pushes the oil up - don't turn the engine over, just roll in gear
-- the head will come easily free this way"

>You may have already solved it, but I ........

Adrian,

No, I haven't solved it. The bad weather didn't help much either. 
In three weeks my new (higher) garage will be ready.
The things one has to go through after buying a Landrover......
Tonight I tried to free it by putting in the plugs, and turning the engine
with the starter motor. No movement at all!
Ten minutes ago I was reading my LRO-mail, drinking a glass of wine,
and thinking of solutions like connecting a pole to the head that goes
down to the floor, and using a jack to lift the pole.
But now I will certainly consider the oil-option.
Clever. I will let you know how "easily" this was.
Anything is better than putting it all together again and drive to a workshop.

You will be hearing more about this.
Thanks, Jan.

janjan@xs4all.nl
De Woude, Netherlands.

------------------------------

From: newsroom@acsworld.net (Merf Radio/WIEZ Newsroom)
Subject: Another LR for the list
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:11:39 -0400

Here's another aluminum driveway ornament <vbg> to add to the list:
 24440110G, 1970, IIa, 88, "Lan'Grover", tan, PA, USA, dd, private =
inportf rom Canada, newsroom@acsworld.net, lro-net, tropical roof; lions =
painted on the doors; jerry-can rack on back.

The e-mail address will change in the near future, but i'll forward a =
new one when I have it.

Also,
For those who don't check the Electronic Telegraph on a regular basis  =
--  this one from 8/28/96 (issue 462):

Freewheeling dogs take Rover for a run
By Carole Cadwalladr

SHOPPERS ran for safety when a Range Rover careered 50 yards down a hill =
with just two dogs in the front seats.

The vehicle came to a halt only after it had clipped a Ford Escort, =
crashed into a BMW, and hit a parking meter in Newcastle upon Tyne's =
Bigg Market. The Range Rover, left without its handbrake on, ran out of =
control after the dogs - two collies - knocked the gear stick into =
neutral.

It had been heading towards the window of a restaurant, but the parking =
meter checked its progress. Tassos Mastrodimitris, 28, a chef at Zorba's =
Greek restaurant, said: "I was horrified because there seemed to be no =
one at the wheel." The Range Rover crashed into his BMW causing =A33,000 =
worth of damage.

He said: "I saw the whole thing happen from the window. It started to =
roll slowly at first. It was as though it was in slow motion. I set off =
outside and had just reached the door when I noticed the driver of the =
car was a dog. I realised then there was no chance of avoiding my car =
and it slammed straight into the back."

Owen Humphries, a photographer, said the Range Rover had been heading =
straight for him. "The collies were sitting in the front," he said. "I =
thought I was seeing things when I saw them at the wheel."

The dogs, Jess, aged three, and Megan, nine months, had been left locked =
in the Range Rover by their owner Richard Fawcett, 29, while he went for =
a meal with his family. Mr Fawcett, a residential care home manager, =
from Chester-le-Street, Co Durham, said: "When I came out of the =
restaurant to look in on the dogs the car wasn't there. I thought it had =
been stolen. I then looked down towards the BMW and there it was. I got =
a hell of a shock. I was really worried about my dogs but when I got =
there they were in the car just wagging their tails."

Today they had one about a guy who stuffed a shetland pony into his Ford =
Escort, only to be stopped by police.  Too bad he didn't have a LR.

Happy Rovering,

Nils Frederiksen
"newsroom@acsworld.net)

------------------------------

From: Lodelane@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:37:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Spin on oil filter: Pros & Cons???

Jeff,

I've been using a spin on with FRAM, Deutsch, and Genuine Land Rover.  No
problems what so ever with the quality of the oil.  Replace oil and filter at
3000 miles.  Sure is easier and cleaner to change the oil, versus the
canister type.  Easier for me to find filters also.

Had a problem with a feed line for the adaptor (old style, now out of
production I think).  Had the local heavy junk dealer
(Catepiller/Komatsu/Case/et al) make me up a 3000psi hydraulic line as a
replacement.

Larry Smith
'72 SWB Petrol - Grover
Chester, VA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:58:26 -0600
From: Rick Grant <rgrant@cadvision.com>
Subject: Re: Spin on oil filter: Pros & Cons???

How does one go about adapting?  Is there something on the NA market or is a
fabrication sort of thing?

			Rick Grant

			1959, SII   "VORIZO"  

rgrant@cadvision.com	
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cobracom
Cobra Media Communications.  Calgary, Canada

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:10:52 +0300
From: nahari ofir <ofir_n@parker.inter.net.il>
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

At 07:59 AM 8/29/96 EDT, you wrote:
>109 2-door Goes where it's pointed, but after a while on the highway the 
>steering starts to feel, as best I can describe, "swoopy".
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 18 lines)]
>I wil say that steering was a bit sloppy till a few days ago, when I found and 
>corrected a case of loose wheel bearings.
>THis has got me stumped - any ideas?
hi
I had this problem on a different car (not rover) that on road was accuring
(sometimes )
It was a front shock absorver(I dont know how you spell it...) disconected
on the top 
which was on the frame bet sometimes got loose (on bumps) and then the car
was "wobbly".
but I'm afraid you shold check ANY connection on the frame (mainly front end)
sometimes joints get disconnected and only look OK .
try shaking the vehicle by someone and looking at any joints in the frame.
Hope you don't find any cracks .
(asumming the steering is ok)
bye
Ofir

LandRover S1 80" 1951

ISRAEL 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:51:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Place <dplace@SIRNet.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Driveshaft Drama

Look on the yoke of the drive shaft and there is an arrow where the 
locking screw ring is.  These arrows must be pointing at each other 
before and after the dissasembly.  If you don't have the arrow, just 
scribe one on before you separate the two sections.  It really is to keep 
the balance right so you don't get a whip or a rumble in the shafts.  
Some better driveshafts have counter weights welded on the side to make 
sure they don't whip or rumble.  You would want to keep those in the same 
position after reassembley, and the arrows make sure you do this.  Dave VE4PN

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 ericz@cloud9.net wrote:

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 18 lines)]
> Can somebody explain better?  I'm not sure I'm making sense.
> Eric

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:17:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Justin Chala <rchala@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: PARTS

I have recently finished my engine conversion on my Ser. III 88".  I have 
been left with some parts which I have no use for.  I am now looking to 
sell them.  All parts are in Portland, Oregon.  
Parts are as follows:
	* 2.25 engine complete; still mated to the bell housing, just 
ready to bolt in.  Was good running and never before been rebuilt.  
(probably needs a rebuild, for it burns some oil and there is some 
blow-by while shifting and upon ignition)  
	* Series III transmission/gearbox; Once rebuilt and in great shape 
except for the 3rd to 4th synchro.  
	* Rear end complete with brake backing plates and drums;minus passenger 
side half-shaft; diff in good condition.
	* Front differential; not used much and is obvious by seeing the 
rust on the inside of the carrier housing and on the R & P.
	

That is all I could think of now I'll let you know if I have anything else.

Richard Chala
rchala@gladstone.uoregon.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:09:19 -0700
From: Jeremy Bartlett <bartlett@slip.net>
Subject: Re: PARTS

Richard Justin Chala wrote:
>         * Series III transmission/gearbox; Once rebuilt and in great shape
> except for the 3rd to 4th synchro.

> Richard Chala
> rchala@gladstone.uoregon.edu

Richard,

I am very much interested in the SIII transmission and will be at the Portland meet.
How much do you want for it.

cheers

Jeremy Bartlett
bartlett@slip.net
jjbpears@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 20:59:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: charles wolfe <cwolfe@d.umn.edu>
Subject: LANDROVER and PARTs FOR SALE

I have finally decided that I am definitely going to part with some of my 
landrover stock.

1964 109IIA SW.  Runs but no brakes. great restoration project.  Frame 
needs rear frame member,  body good, interior good. SPH good.  

109 IIA totally rebuilt frame.  Never seen road.  NEW HD leafsprings and 
bushing. NEWshocks, rebuilt SPH, rolling on 16 inch wheels

Plus 1963 body complete, block, head, differential, transmission
various other stuff, starter,generator, votage regulatior steering wheel, 
electrical potporri, quages, redone firewall, redone grill

extra safari roof, 2 or 3 extra quarter panels, extra hood.  

109 PU window to make PU bed enclosed (like sport utility vehicle)

$5000.00

call 218-345-6419

Cwolfe
35 miles north of Duluth MN

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:10:34 -0400
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Breaking up (isn't) hard to do...

Rick Grant wrote:

>from the number of times this happens...I think I'll lash a couple (I have
>four spares) under the frame with duct tape.

"Duct tape.  Because in the end, all solutions are temporary." 
                                                -Garrison Keeler

I've never broken an axle on the trail - always around town while wearing a 
suit.   Anyway, *always* carry a pair.  Coat in cosmolene, wrap in newspaper 
and then plastic wrap.  And duct tape.  

It's best not to drive more than a few feet when the axle breaks.  Drop the 
rear prop shaft, pull the axle shafts and isolate that diff so the shards 
and shrapnel can't do any more damage.  Cheers

      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.     |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 757-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    757-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 757-622-7056     |
      |                                                     |
      *---1972 Series III 88"------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)---*

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:33:20 -0400
From: Garret Scott <scottgs@usit.net>
Subject: Re: Diffs  (locking diffs)

At 28 Aug 96 21:29:50 EDT you wrote:

>From: Steve Rochna <75347.452@CompuServe.COM>
>Subject: Diffs
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>for about 300$ US.  Any horror stories, words of wisdom, etc...
>Thanks.  Steve Rochna   '72 SIII 88

Steve,

I once drove a J**P *J-7 which had a Detriot Locker in the rear.  It wasn't fun, or in my opinion 
safe.  Unless you have a very large vehicle, and enjoy replacing half-shafts, I wouldn't recommend 
it. Also, I believe the Quaiffe differential is designed like the Detriot locker.  On the other 
hand, I have heard wonderful reports from thier use in "Monster Trucks". 

Most limited slip differentials seem to have strange quirks, some are noisy (Detrio*), some wearout 
quickly, one can't handle tires over 31" diameter (Tors*n) and some won't even work if one wheel is 
off the ground (Tru*-Tra*).  Most will not handle and drive like a normal "open" diff on the road. 
Unfortionatly, there are few designs which will fit the Land Rover axle.  Fortunatly there are some 
good ones, including my favorite: the ARB "air-locker". 

The ARB is a differential which can give the best of both worlds.  It is a normal "open" 
differental while unlocked, and locks up 100% when engaged, just like a Merced*s Unim*g.  You can 
find some info at:   http://www.4x44u.com/pub/k2/am4x44u/video/arbpage2.htm

I have had ARB's in my lightweight for almost 8 years now.  As best as I can tell, they are
virtually indestructable.  They are machined from forged billet steel and have a 4-pinion diff. 
They work extremely well off-road.  In addition to the 100% lockup for off-roading, I have found 
they are wonderful for preventing side-to-side sloshing in ruts while driving in the snow at speed. 
Something I doubt "limited slip" differentials can do.

On the downside: 

  -They are expensive (about $500 US each + $150 air compressor + misc. parts + installation) 

  -The ARB air compressor must be made by Lucas's brother. 

  -Operator training is required, it is manually engaged. 

  -They eat halfshafts if abused in anger.  

An interesting side note about halfshafts: I once (well, really my dad, an ex- Y-12 machinist) 
custom made several 24/10-spline halfshafts from 4340VA alloy steel.  They still broke.  The 
metallurgist said the inside 10-splines are just too few to prevent reverse torsional strain 
fractures (No, I don't know what this means either).  

Anyway, I can highly reccomend the ARB. If you decided to go this route, I would recommend using 
the 24-spline ARB with Series 24-spline axles.  A British Company, KAM differentials, make these 
axles.  Also, if you have 4.7 diffs, you will have to use a spacer, and long ring gear bolts (still 
standard LR parts).   And remember, "you gets whats you pays for" 

Good Luck,

Garret
scottgs@usit.net

~67 Air-Portable aka Nigel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:42:09 -0500
From: "John P. Casteel" <jcasteel@mindspring.com>
Subject: Series Database

This information is based on 17 vehicles reported.

Vehicles by Year:       Vehicles by Series:     Vehicles by Country:
1951    -  1            I       -  1            UK	-  1
1959    -  2            II      -  2            S.Afr   -  1
1964    -  1            IIa     -  9            USA     - 13
1965    -  2            III     -  5            Israel  -  1
1966    -  2					Canada	-  1
1967    -  1
1970    -  2		Vehicles by Wbase:
1971	-  1		 80"    -  1
1972	-  3		 86"    -  0
1973	-  1		 88"    - 13
1975	-  1		107"    -  0
			109"	-  3

The most popular color is some form of Green with 6.  Second choice of 
color is some form of blue with 4.  Safari top also seems to be a 
popular option.

I'll be in Tampa, FL for a few days so the next posting of these stats 
will be early next week.

Ta Ta,
jc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:20:06 -0700
From: gpool@pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: Re: locking diffs

Garret,

I agree with all that you said about limited-slips and auto-lockers.  I'm
keen to get ARBs for my Rover too.  But I'd like to point out that these are
not the only manual lockers available for the Land-Rover.  There are also
MacNamara and Maxi-Drive diffs, also both made in Australia.  I don't know
much about the Maxi-Drives except that the actuation is vacuum rather than
air.  I think the MacNamaras may also be vacuum but am not sure.  

MacNamara makes a special modified Hypoid diff for the Land-Rover
(Rover-type axle only), based upon the Toyota Hilux sold in Oz, which is
supposed to be much stronger than the Rover diff and therefore able to take
the abuse of the locker better.  Also has a four-pinion carrier and uses
24-spine axle shafts which are available from MacNamara.  I understand that
these units are very pricey (I've seen but forgotten the exact price).
Available in a variety of ratios, as well.  MN makes some other interesting
options for Land-Rover diffs, too, including "diff-strengthening kits"
(four-pinion carriers and 24-spline half-shafts) and a simple manual locker
(works sort of like a free-wheeling hub on one side and is for the rear only).

It is my understanding that Kamm of the UK was also coming out with
driver-lockable diffs. 

Cheers,

Granville Pool
Redwood Valley, CA USA
'73 Series III 88 (the Snark)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:59:01 -0700 (MST)
From: Dirk Tischer <dtischer@U.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Dif Protection

Does anybody know a good source for a Differential Skid plate for a D90.

I put a ding in my front dif awhile back and noticed it the other day.
Before I do any real damage, I'd like to find something to put between
mother nature and my differential. 

I'm shopping around now, and would appreciate any advice on brand or
dealer.  I think I want something more than just a cover, but I'm not
sure.  I haven't seen much advertised in this regard.  LROI seems to have
adds for covers...will they prevent low speed dings?
 

Thanks in advance,

Dirk Tischer
Tucson, AZ
Yellow Defender 90
   _____
  |  \()/                        
  -------       /^\
  o | | o      /   \
  |=+===|     /     \
  ||/^\||   /        \
  /     \  /
 /       \/
 

------------------------------

From: slade@sisna.com
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:20:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Series Database

My entry,

>VIN,year,type,size,name,color,current location,country,shape,original
>dealer,e-mail,lro-net,notes (limit of 250 characters)

26415317G, 70, IIA, 109 SW, none (The Green Elephant (maybe???)), Pastel
Green, Oregon, Canada, dd, Fred Deely (Vancouver, BC), slade@sisna.com,
lro-net

Michael Slade
'70 109 Station Wagon
Portland, OR
slade@sisna.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 16:37:33 +1000 (EST)
From: Lloyd Allison <lloyd@cs.monash.edu.au>
Subject: one for Michael Carradine

the Unimog / Range Rover -
   <URL:http://www.sofcom.com.au/4WD/Events/Finland.html>
I don't know what Solihull would think about this

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:03:11 +0000
From: ewhite2@ALPHA2.CURTIN.EDU.AU
Subject: Re: Odd steering - but I can't put my finger on what's up.

Yes, I heard the same about running the hubs every week or so to 
lubricate the uni joints in the swivel pins, as they are splash 
lubricated and will dry out if not engaged every now and then.
Chris

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, John P. Casteel wrote:

> QROVER80@aol.com wrote:
> ...
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
> some such figure.  Is this accurate?  Am I remembering this incorrectly?
> John Casteel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:10:00 +0100
From: "Geoffrey Said" <Geoffrey.Said@magnet.mt>
Subject: Landrover history

questions:

1  Why has landrover retained the 2.25l diesel engine on both Series III lwb and 
swb.  I understand that the swb is more powerfull and that the lwb is more 
underpowered.  Also the lwb is much heavier and was required to move around 
larger loads then the swb. 

2  What are the main differences between the Series II and IIa.

3  Why has landrover taken long to introduce a much more powereful diesel engine 
on their workhorses knowing that their models where underpowered.

Geoffrey
1979 Series III 109"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 06:06:06 EDT
From: "Steve Reddock" <steve_reddock@uk.xyratex.com>
Subject: What is a bimini top?

Subject says it all!

Steve Reddock, Xyratex        |  "NEVER QUESTION AN
Ext.(01705) 486363 x4450      |   ENGINEER'S OPINION,
IBMMAIL (GBXYR96P)            |   YOU THUNDERING MORON !"
Steve_Reddock@uk.xyratex.com  |     - Dogbert 1996

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
 Input:  messages 54 lines 2234 [forwarded 220 whitespace 565]
 Output: lines 1623 [content 974  forwarded 104 (cut  116) whitespace 488]

Land Rover Owner Subscription Information:

	* All new subscription requests are via the digest. *

In addition so subscribing and unsubscribing, the Frequently Asked
Questions (FAQ) file and the last month of daily digests may be retrieved
(by mail) from majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

Useful commands for this are 'index lro-digest' which returns a list of
files available, as well as 'get lro-digest <filename>', etc.

World Wide Web Sites start at
	 http://www.Land-Rover.Team.Net/~majordom/lr/pages.html
(shadow) http://www.Senie.com/billc/lr/pages.html

If majordomo barfs at something, and you're convinced he should have 
understood what you sent him, contact majordomo-owner@Land-Rover.Team.Net

  -B

Back	Forward
Photos & text Copyright 1990-2011 Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved. Digest Messages Copyright 1990-2011 by the original poster or/and Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved.