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From: azw@aber.ac.uk
Subject: Mercedes Question-Reply   G-wagen info
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:48:25 UNDEFINED

>exclusive US dealer is in N.M. and new ones cost $127,000.  Used are
>considerable cheaper with early 80's starting at around $10,000. 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>suspension. 10.5 inches on wheel travel at all four wheels!  rated to
>cross water of 24 inches with no problem.  Mercedes diesel available.  

Many years ago, 4 Wheel Poser did a cmpaprative offroad test of G Wagen, 90, 
Tonka Hi-Lux Pickup and others I forget. The G wagen came outt best on snowy 
roads but worst on everything else, despitet htre allround diffflocks!!!!

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ...Defender related
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:51:25 UNDEFINED

>John writes about needing ' a bit of forward and backward movement' to get
>>his D90 Defender's centre diff unlocked.  My experience with the Defender
>>110 is the same as it is for several other Defender owners that I know...

Just run the inside wheels along the verge. The windup will spin out and the 
diff unlocks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:43:52 +0000
From: Roy Wassili <wassili@AMC.UVA.NL>
Subject: Re: Flimsy Discos

Ok, so now we have the discussion about who has the thoughest car?

A while ago the Germans did some crash testing on a Nissan Patrol GR. 
The car was leathal at 50 km/h ( = 31 mph ) and car damage was 
relative small.

The dummies were wearing safty-belts. But real people whould have 
died due to severe ruptures of internal organs.

So "flimsy cars" seem to absorb lots of energy while crashing and 
the driver, and passengers, have a bigger change to survive. 

So IMO I'd rather be the though guy in a flimsy car, instead of a 
sissy in a though car ;-)

IMPORTANT: No offense to anyone!
LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR*LR
                ____
      |   _____/|__||     Roy Wassili,<wassili@amc.uva.nl>
      |  /(-8|  \   |       Almere, The Netherlands
  ____|_/[]__|__\___|#  Avalon Blue '95 Discovery, VG-XH-66
 |] __=|     |  __  |#         "The Chameleon"
[|_/  \|_____|_/  \_|]
  ( o )        ( o )

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 07:19:23 EST
From: "Steve Reddock" <steve_reddock@uk.xyratex.com>
Subject: I'm jumping the pond

Hi all,
  
In April I will be on holiday (oops I mean a very justifiable business
trip!) for 3-6 weeks in Charlotte, N.Carolina. Is there anybody around
there who would like to down some beer with me whilst I am there?
  
I will be at the IBM manufacturing plant there & will have transport, but
it will be some inferior 2wd Hertz mobile.
  
Send me a note, and I'll get in touch when I am there. As with all
business trips, it isn't confirmed until the plane has taken off!
  
Cheers, Steve Lightweight V6
  
Steve Reddock, Xyratex       | Just as he thought he had
Ext.(01705) 486363 x4450     | clinched the interview he was
IBMMAIL (GBXYR96P)           | visited by the ghost of Usenet
Steve_Reddock@uk.xyratex.com | Postings Past.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:10:37 -0500
From: benedick@pa.net (Darwyn/Kris Benedict)
Subject: Series: Thanks for the enlightment

TO all:

In some ways it is a shame to see the list split.  On one hand, the amount
of mail is getting very high (to say the least), which is good; on the other
hand, it has been wonderful for me to learn so much about the heritage of
LR's.  I did not know anything about the series when I first joined the
list.  I now would like to someday go a rally and learn more first hand
knowledge.  I'm not an expert machanic and probably never will be, but it
had been great getting advice from all.

Plus, I'll just miss some of the "off" conversations! (Beer bottles and
etc.)  I, personally, would still like to hear about rallys and off-road
experences from the other list anytime after the big split happens.

Keep in touch, all.

Kris- 94 white Disco. "Thumper"

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk
Subject: D90 manual
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:13:29 UNDEFINED

I recently purchased a '95 D90 shop manual
>and it looks great.  However, it didn't come
>with a binder and I can't seem to find one.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
>A4 size)
>Any help?

Just a normal A4 ring binder fits just fine -uinless you ar hellbant on 
using all four holes........

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Tow Hooks & Hi-Lift
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:07:51 UNDEFINED

>Hi-Lift jack fits real nice behind the seats and attached to the cross brace
>of the D-90.

This is what I do too. But it'd be a squash if I had a 5 foot jack..........

------------------------------

From: ericz@cloud9.net
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 05:26:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Flimsy Discos

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Mark Perry <rxq281@freenet.mb.ca> wrote:
 sport-utilities and came up with 
>conclusion that they may *look* tough, but if you drive them into a 
>solid barrier, d-oh, they can bend.
>What's worse, they bend enough that they can be very expensive to fix.

Oh, you mean the gov't requirement for crumple zones on newer vehicles ?  That's 
merely a subsidy for our 'failing' auto body repair industry....:)  Seriously, 
go ahead and hit something with a Series LR, I dare you NOT to be able to drive 
away.

Eric

------------------------------

From: ericz@cloud9.net
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 05:27:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Diesels and Imports

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, azw@aber.ac.uk wrote:

>They arent. For two reasons. Firstly the power spread is far lesss than on a 
>petrol. Deisels are ideal for constant rev applications and are suboptimal for 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>hardest to acheive the set revs. Get stuck in a deisel and it as far harder to 
>drive out than a petrol

Every diesel I've seen off-road was incredible!  With feet off the pedals and 
ticking over at idle, the vehicle was able to crawl over virtually anything.  
The same segment saw V8s and 2.25ls spinning like mad

>The ideal car for strickling is a petrol AUTOMATIC. Ask the Icelandic glacier 
>merchants.

Yeah, but try push-starting it!

>Yup,. The fuel consumption being hjalf that of the petrol is what makes em 
>sell in the UK. In the US , where fuel is free with breakfast cereal, I cant 
>imagine why anyone would buy anything other than the 3.5V8.
>down the power in very slippery situations, cos the governer will try it's 
Free as breakfast cereal???  You must remember that we also drive significantly 
larger distances than you do.  I regularly put 500-600 miles A WEEK on my V8.  
Although not as expensive as in England, its certianly not free!

Regards,
Eric

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <trowe@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:01:54 GMT -0600
Subject: JERRY CANS (not really LR related)

Eric wrote:

> ask which war).  It seems the English had trouble with their models, causing 
 shortages of fuel and nearly their defeat....funny how something as seemingly 
 insignificant as a gas can can have such an effect.  
 
> This is just heresay....so please don't flame me if I got it wrong.
-
Assuming the British tank commander who's books I read was right, you 
are absolutly correct. The British were using 5 gal tins, those 
shinny tall square deals made from very thin tin. They would develop 
leaks and rupture due to the vibration. This was before the yanks got 
in on the action in North Africa. I believe  the US brought into 
action our feeble immitation of the Germans' cans.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
Madison,WI, USA
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <trowe@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:14:42 GMT -0600
Subject: Re: 2.5l VM Turbo Diesel

> Does a smudged or blown turbo gasket imply a buggered or soon to be history 
> turbo?

Maybe yes, maybe no. Depends partly on what gasket. and if it's a 
gasket at all or one of the oil seals which is really like a piston 
ring sort of. The gaskets are on the exhaust housing flange, probably 
no big deal if it's blown, but I'd inspect the exhaust system good as 
they should last as long as the turbo is installed. Unlees the 
mounting bolts came loose.
Sometime there's a like gasket on the intake, I don't know that 
particular engine.
Then there's the seal (the piston ring type) on the impeller shaft. It 
could be blown for any number of reasons, some worse than others. The 
only way to know for sure is to tear down the turbo. You can pretty 
much bet on the turbine blades needing to be cleaned up. When the 
seal goes, it passes oil into the compressor end and it cokes up on 
the blades. It could be blown because teh housing in worn beyound 
spec. (New housing needed)
Or it could have blown because the oil drain line got blocked.
If there's a bypass on the exhaust it might have failed, but usually 
that just results in too much or no boost.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
Madison,WI, USA
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:24:51 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (Mike Smith)
Subject: Diesels

Dear Mike Rooth,
        You can't tell me that you seriously think the 62 hp diesel is
overkill. Do you understand the meaning of the word. A 600 hp gas turbine
in a SIIA 88 is overkill. A low rpm  4 cylinder diesel is not overkill.
That is the point. Yes diesels have thier plus side to be sure, mileage
etc, but balanced out for road use in the USA, which is what we are talking
about, it is not a well rounded vehicle. Well rounded would mean you would
give it to your wife to drive to Boston, the store, or drive up a tree.
Diesels excell off road, that is why I have one, but the fact still
remains, and you can dispute it as long as you like, but a 62 hp engine is
in no way overkill. Maybe it is because I am from the land of horsepower,
where 200 horse is average and gas is 1.25 a gallon. My other truck has a
7.7L, and my other car has a 7.8L, so I guess you and I have a drastic
difference in what is considered overkill. A blown V8 with Nitros oxide and
2 4bbl carbs is overkill. Putting a Cat 3208 turbo diesel in a 109 is
overkill.
        BTW, I am a certified Caterpillar, John Deere, Luggar, and MTU
diesel machanic, I used to be a Marine Engineer who rebuilt diesels with
bigger blocks than entire Land Rovers, so if you think I have experience
with only one diesel you are severly mistaken.

Mike Smith, East Coast Rover Co.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:22:32 -0500
From: Sanjay Prasad <Prasad@ba-iplaw.com>
Subject:  RR: County

I just saw a message referring to County style wood trim on a RR.  I have
a '90 RR which doesn't have the County designation on the tailgate. 
Does anyone know what the difference is between the County and
non-County versions in the '90 RR?

Sanjay Prasad
Boston, Massachusetts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 06:37:37 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Power steering leak(or ooze) on a Disco

I'm a little new at this Land Rover ownership gig myself; however, I do have
it on good authority that a bit of leakage on Land Rovers is like a wet nose
on a dog.  It's healthy.

Gung Hay Fat Choy!
John
'95 Discovery (healthy)
San Francisco

At 17:03 26.02.97 -0600, John B. Friedman wrote:
>I find a few drops of PS fluid on the ground under Disco and two  
>drops of same beaded on the ferrules of the oil cooler hoses. But no  
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 13 lines)]
>where this stuff is a escaping from please let me know or post  
>generally. Thanks, John Friedman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 06:37:41 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Vanna of my dreams!

At 19:55 26.02.96 -0800, Michael Carradine wrote:

 Wheel of Fortune prize today: $37,000 Land Rover Discover, Grey/Grey

 I want!    (...sorry, Rumpole)

                          ______
 Michael Carradine        [__[__\==                     Rumpole of the Bay
 510-988-0900             [________]                        Land-Rover 4x4
 cs@crl.com  ___________.._(o)__.(o)_____...o^^^^  '65 IIA 2.235m (was 88)
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Land-Rover 4x4 Connection WWW page at:  http://www.crl.com/~cs/rover.html
 
==========================================================================

What's this?  Another Series owner lusting after a plushmobile???
Uuuuuhmmmm.  I'm tellin' TeriAnn on you.

Gung Hay Fat Choy!
John
'95 Discovery (Say it loud!  I'm plush, and I'm proud!)
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Sodium Hydroxide aka drain cleaner
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 06:39:12 -0000
From: Hugo Madden <madhugo@best.com>

>Now before someone flames me for non LR content, please remember that what 
>you 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>Matthew (fizz, pop, BANG)
>ZA

Yes you should only use bicarbonate for battery acid spills.  Bicarb 
won't touch the ally

                                                        _______
                                                       //_/_|__\___
                                                       \_ - ___ - _d 
                                                         (o)   (o)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 06:37:59 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Diesel overkill my ...

At 19:56 27.02.96 -0800, ericz@cloud9.net wrote:

Just because I seriously considered getting a radar detector for my series 
vehicle.....:)  :)  :)

===============================

Why stop there?  I'd check with NASA about getting some of those heat shield
tiles they use on the space shuttle.

Gung Hay Fat Choy!
John
'95 Discovery (Take us out of orbit, Mr. Sulu.)
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

From: Russell Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Diesels
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 6:45:37 PST

Mike,

I have been thinking of replacing my 3.9 with a diesel in my D-90
Any recommendations.

Thanks Russ
94 D-90
95 D-90sw
91 R-Rover

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Vacuum Advance
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 10:04:00 EST

Ian Harper wrote:-Can anyone explain to me the Vacuum advance?  I know the 
principles, ie it
advances the timing under acceleration to increase efficiency,

Actually, Ian, it retards the timing under acceleration and advances it 
under steady state running. The purpose of ignition advance is to initiate 
the explosion within the cylinder early enough that, to put it simply, the 
bang arrives at the piston as the piston arrives at top dead centre. Because 
it takes a finite time for the mixture in the cylinder to burn and this time 
is fairly constant than as the engine speed increases the spark must fire 
sooner. This is what advance does. When accelerating in order to get the 
most push out of a full charge in the cylinder the spark must occur later 
and the vacuum advance effects this because when accelerating the vacuum is 
lower. In steady state cruising the light load and partial charge means that 
the explosion can be initiated earlier and the burn can be more complete 
before TDC to extract the energy most efficiently.

Or something like that

The vacuum advance is ported from the carburettor at a point such that the 
closed throttle blanks the vacuum advance to prevent overadvance at idle.
A vacuum gauge should be connected to the manifold in the same way as the 
brake servo. It ought to show about 20 inches (From memory, please correct 
me if I'm wrong) at idle, drop on acceleration and increase on the overrun.

Errattic timing may be indicative of sticking centrifugal advance mechanism, 
worn distributor shaft, or vacuum leaks.

Trevor Easton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 07:08:29 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Splitting the List.

At 01:54 28.02.96 -0500, William Caloccia wrote:

>	The list is now *officially* split.

And all the king's horses and all the king's men...

------------------------------

Date:         Wed, 28 Feb 96 09:55:54 EST
From: Patty Burke <PBURKE@american.edu>
Subject:      Dateline trashing of Disco?

My friends are all informing me that I am driving an "unsafe" vehicle,
based on some "Dateline/NBC" report on the general lack of safety
standards in SUVs.  Apparently "Disco is the worst" of the lot.

All I know is that someone driving a Ford Taurus rear-ended me at
a speed that couldn't have exceeded 5MPH.  I did not feel the slightest
bump, only heard the CRUNCH of his demolished front-end (almost up to
his windshield!), and my Disco had a cracked bumper-light.  There was
absolutely no other evidence that I had been hit.

So, I am highly skeptical of these reports -- what kind of "tests"
were performed to suggest results so contrary to my personal experience?

I have my gripes about the quality control of LRNA Discos, but it seems
to be quite a sturdy vehicle to me.  I'm glad I won't have to pay the
sticker price for sure-to-be-legislated new safety requirements, but I am
annoyed that such reports will likely result in higher insurance rates
(now lower than what I was paying on my Audi--of course, that rate was
courtesy of 60 minutes and the sudden acceleration scare).

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer <Alan_Richer.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 28 Feb 96 10:52:36 EST
Subject: Odd acceleration quirk - opinions?

I have an odd acceleration quirk in my 109, that an opinion would be 
appreciated on.

It's like this:

When I keep the revs down on clutching in at a light, the engine spiutters like 
spark is failing. If at the same light I keep the revs high, it pulls away 
nicely, not sputtering at all.

As I have an electronic ignition in the beast, i don't think it's the 
points.....8*)

However, I do think that perhaps I might have mispositioned the IR sensor so 
that, upon acceleration it's moving the spark firing point off the cap tower 
for the plug, causing misfires.

Anybody got any idea how I can figure this one out? -ajr

------------------------------

From: debrown@srp.gov
Date: 28 Feb 96 09:12:52 MST
Subject: Jerry cans leaking - Very LR-ish.

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
John writes:

> If I have this right, the cans were designed to leak out the top seal as a
> mechanism for keeping  dirt and sand out of the fuel, this allowed carbs and
> filters to have extended life in desert conditions.

How *very* Land-Rover like!!! That *must* explain the oil leaks of our
beloved (or is that "bewitched"?) beasts! Frame oiler, designed to keep out
dirt and sand... What will they think of *next*?

P.S. With *only* around 100 messages a day, the digest goes by *much* too
quickly!! Why, by the early afternoon, I've already browsed through the
entire digest! Come-on people! I have a couple of hours left of work time
to kill! Surely we can push the volume up past 200-300 posts!!!

Oops! Almost forgot...

*** WARNING!!!! *** THE ABOVE WAS *NOT* INTENDED TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY
BY THOSE FEW ON THE LIST WHO SEEM TO HAVE *NO* SENSE OF HUMOR.

 Any resemblance to truth is purely coincidental. These are not the opinions
 of my employer, heck, they're not even *mine*! I *stole* them! Yeah! That's
 it! I stole them!! I snagged them from some poor sap on the internet!!!

All information contained herein is copyrighted. None of it may be used,
cited, reproduced, or in any way, shape, form, or media, be used, duplicated,
or even read. If you've read this far, then you must report yourself to
the internet police, and send me $10 to cover damages!

Thank you, and have a nice day...
Oh yeah! I forgot the "smileys" to show that it's humor!! ;) ;) ;) ;)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) HUMOR!!! (Or at least, an attempt!!)  ;-)
 #=====#         #========#          -------,___          _________
 |___|__\___     |___|__|__\___      |--' |  |  \_|_     //__/__|__\___
 | _ |   |_ |}   | _ |  |   |_ |}    |  _ |--+--|_  |    \__/-\_|__/-\_|}
 "(_)""""(_)"    "(_)"""""""(_)"    ||_/_\___|__/_\_|}      (_)    (_)
                                       (_)      (_)
 1971 "88" IIa   1970 "109" IIa     1994 Discovery (Sold) '87 Range Rover
 LIC: LION B8    Historic plates     (Too hard to "draw")  rear Lock-Right
 Phoenix Arizona USA (602) 820-8052                        Crane cam
 Have: tools, knowledge, couch, etc...  Pager: (602) 275-2508 #6486

P.P.S. Just to spark some conversation... Plushmobile, bottle opener,
rust, seat switch, over powered, under powered, oil leak, whining overdrive,
spam, parts, manual, rodent, heater, worms, waving, tires, snubbed, ABS,
leaks, galvanize, importing, bleeding brakes, splitting the list, and finally,
Taylor like questions!!! So THERE!   ;-)
;-)

#=======#         _________           We make a living by what we get,
|__|__|__\___    //__/__|__\___        we make a life by what we give.
| _|  |   |_ |}  \__/-\_|__/-\_|}
"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                       Winston Churchill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:48:29 GMT
From: Gerald Tan <gtan@bbchw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Vibration?

How's your vibration problem?
Gerald
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Gerald Tan    EMail gtan@bbchw.demon.co.uk                              |
| Purely my own opinions - not those of my employer                       |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 96 11:16:46 EST
From: Mark Ritter <70472.1130@compuserve.com>
Subject: Isuzu Diesels

I have read several articles in LR world and Owner about the installation of
Isuzu Diesels into LR products. In Australia they seem to use the 3.9 litre
turbo diesel. A trip to my local Isuzu truck dealer the other day revealed that
this engine is indded available in the US. It is known as the 4BD1 engine. It
produces 129 hp and a mountain of torque. In a conversation with a tow truck
driver who used and Isuzu truck equipped with this engine me told that the truck
had half a million mile on the original engine with only a valve job. Does
anybody out there know a a company who produces the necessary conversion parts
to fit this engine into Land Rovers, Range Rovers and Dicovery's? I'm thinking
that some of you "down under" probobly have acces to this info as LR's sometimes
come eqipped new in OZ this this engine. There are several people in our club
SOLAROS who are trying to find a diesel conversion for the LR's and RR's and
this engine is readily available here.

								Mark Ritter

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Diesels
From: David.Tinley@bbc.co.uk (Dave Tinley)
Date: 28 Feb 96 16:20:52 EST

The best all round performance comes from the 300TDi.  It suits the 
chassis well & as a bonus all parts can be sourced from LR. (LRNA ?? not 
sure).  I have owned a 200TDi 90 & was the best LR I ever had - until it 
was stolen (3 years ago).  It's also worth considering the ZF4 speed auto 
while your swapping engines.  I know of a couple of 90's that were 
converted for disabled drivers. 
       _______
      [____|\_\==              david.tinley@bbc.co.uk   
      [_-__|__|_-]           
 ___.._(0)..._.(0)__.._
                                  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:23:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Odd acceleration quirk - opinions?
From: "Andrew A. Dallas" <adallas@systemsoft.com>

I had a similar problem in my 1975 BMW R90 motorcycle. After about a 
month of fiddling, I replaced one of the two ignition coils. Everything 
cleared up. Odd behavior of the motorcycle included occasional power loss 
and poor idling.Initially it seemed that temperature or outside humidity 
levels seemed to be affecting performance. The coil appeared to be OK 
when I tested it with an ohm meter so I couldn't detect that anything was 
wrong until I replaced it.
Upon removal of the old coil, I noticed a carbon deposit on the end of 
the cable.

I hope this helps.
-AD

************************************************************************
 Andrew A. Dallas
 Full Spectrum Software, Inc.
 30 Whittemore Road
 Newton, MA 02158, USA

 (617) 965-7580, On Site Office: (508) 647-2948
 email: adallas@tiac.net, Web Page: http://www.tiac.net/users/adallas/
************************************************************************

------------------------------

From: debrown@srp.gov
Date: 28 Feb 96 09:24:24 MST
Subject: Relating to Doug Scott

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
Doug, I can relate! I "usually" drive the RR, and wave at *all* LR's,
and rarely do I receive a return wave. Once in Flagstaff AZ, a Disco
actually flashed it's lights AT ME! I returned a "flash." (Could have
gotten arrested for that! ;-) ) I had a total of two RR's respond to me
while driving the 109. Once in Washington state (or was that
Vermont???), and once in Arizona.

As someone else stated: Maybe if I washed my LR more often...

But take heart... Some day, you may wave at ME! And unless I'm sleeping
at the time, I *will* wave back! (If I *am* sleeping at the time, please
honk to wake me. Sleeping while driving *could* be a bad thing.)

Dave ("wavey Dave") Brown

#=======#         _________           We make a living by what we get,
|__|__|__\___    //__/__|__\___        we make a life by what we give.
| _|  |   |_ |}  \__/-\_|__/-\_|}
"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                       Winston Churchill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:27:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Tebbin Salvesen <tsalves@slcpl.slcpl.lib.ut.us>
Subject: Re: Dateline trashing of Disco?

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Patty Burke wrote:

> My friends are all informing me that I am driving an "unsafe" vehicle,
> based on some "Dateline/NBC" report on the general lack of safety
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> based on some "Dateline/NBC" report on the general lack of safety
> standards in SUVs.  Apparently "Disco is the worst" of the lot----
actually the RODEO was the worst---remember crash tests are like
statistics --- if you set it up right you can make it say anything you want!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:32:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Tebbin Salvesen <tsalves@slcpl.slcpl.lib.ut.us>
Subject: Re: RR: County

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Sanjay Prasad wrote:

> I just saw a message referring to County style wood trim on a RR.  I have
> a '90 RR which doesn't have the County designation on the tailgate. 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> Sanjay Prasad
> Boston, Massachusetts

the county not only has the ARB feature (air re-breather) but in the ARB
locker in the rear it has an APMD (automatic poupon mustard dispenser), a
must whilst attending tailgate parties at the polo field!

------------------------------

From: "Ron Franklin" <oldhaven@mail.biddeford.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:53:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Snubbed by a Plushmobile

> Give it up.  I live in Rover city..or so it seems.  Discos & Range Rovers are
> very common here.  In my 109 I probably get a wave back in about one of every
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 11 lines)]
> I just think they don't care
> TeriAnn
I have to admit that I spent years driving series LR's and just didn't see 
enough RR's to watch for them.  It was only when I saw someone a couple of 
years ago waving wildly at me from a vehicle which seemed strangely more 
attractive than the average SUV that I began to look for and wave to RR's 
and Discovery's.  So thanks to the anonymous Discovery driver in Brunswick 
Maine who at least knew what I was. (and was probably encouraged that a Land 
Rover could look that bad and still run)

Bowdoin, Maine, USA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:17:38 -0800
From: matts@cacilj.caciasl.com (Matt Snyder)
Subject: tire step

I'm looking for one of those steps that you take out and fit over a tire, 
for getting at the roof rack.  I've seen them, but I can't remember where.  
Anyone know a source?
-Matt

------------------------------

From: Mark.Kraieski@mailport.delta-air.com
Date: 28 Feb 96 12:20:45 -0500
Subject: Update: BMW Discovery

The latest issue of Autoweek quotes a higher-up in BMW who indicates that 
BMW will not rebadge Land Rover products as BMWs. But he did say we 
shouldn't be surprised if Land Rover badged Discoveries appear in BMW 
showrooms as Land Rovers. No time frame was given for when this might occur.

Maybe this will improve LR dealer competition and pricing, as well as 
providing more places for vehicle servicing. Here in Atlanta we have 2 LR 
dealerships, neither conveniently located for me, and both owned by the same 
people.

This issue of Autoweek also listed the big gainers in North American sales 
for Jan '96 versus Jan '95. LR posted the biggest gains of all makes.

------------------------------

From: crash@merl.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:28:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Manuals, floor mats for sale...

If the person who had the Disco floormats for sale would
please call me, that would be great!  (Email to your
address bounces).

	-Bill Yerazunis
	 617-621-7530 
	 crash@merl.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:30:39 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Re: Diesels

>Dear Mike Rooth,
>        You can't tell me that you seriously think the 62 hp diesel is
>overkill. Do you understand the meaning of the word.

Indeed I do.Overkill is not the realms of fancy,such as you describe,
as well as being a physical impossibilty.Overkill is,in fact,any situation
where there is more of a given requirement than is strictly necessary to
acheive a given end.Therefore two bullets used where one will do the
job is overkill.A complete magazine is wasteful.

>.

>etc, but balanced out for road use in the USA, which is what we are talking
>about, it is not a well rounded vehicle. Well rounded would mean you would
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>remains, and you can dispute it as long as you like, but a 62 hp engine is
>in no way overkill.
There's more to measuring engine performance than HP.And up until now,
road use in the USA has not been mentioned either by me,or yourself.
I would quite cheerfully give mine to my wife to drive anywhere,but she
would have more sense than to drive it up a tree.I consider my 88" a
perfectly well rounded vehicle,thanks.(Truth to tell,like all series
vehicles,the adjective "rounded" doesnt sit well with them,but there you
go,they're just the wrong shape for the word).

>where 200 horse is average and gas is 1.25 a gallon. My other truck has a
>7.7L, and my other car has a 7.8L, so I guess you and I have a drastic
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>bigger blocks than entire Land Rovers, so if you think I have experience
>with only one diesel you are severly mistaken.

I dont question your experience with a multitude of makes.What I actually
said was "one diesel *Land Rover*".And if the thing underperformed,why not
get it sorted so it didnt? I fail to see what the price of fuel has to do
with the discussion.I assume your diesel is equally cheap?We are all well
aware of the relatively inexpensive nature of fuel in the USA.But that doesnt
mean you have to try to use it all at once,surely?You are,of course,entitled
to your opinion,as you are to state that opinion.But IMO,you are *not*
entitled to state it as fact.

Aside from this,folks.It occurred to me the other day,that diesel fuel
in the UK rejoices in the name of DERV.For Diesel Engined Road Vehicles.
Isnt it a good thing they didnt use the same convention for Petrol?
Think about it.........
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:14:37 -0800 (PST)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: CAR and DRIVER article on 87 RR -Reply

On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, David Olley at New Concept wrote:

>   Please repeat: A VCU RR DOES NOT HAVE A CENTRE DIFF!

Wait -- slight correction -- a VCU RR DOES have a center diff, providing 
the direct mechanical coupling to the front wheels at all times. It's just 
that the viscous coupling locks this diff when it senses wheelspin.  

This is in contrast to various "all wheel drive" vans and other pseudo
4X4's like the "Four Wheeler of the year" 1996 V8 Jeep Grand Cherokee
which have a viscous coupling with no center diff. In the latter case the
vehicle is effectively in 2 wheel drive unless a rear wheel starts
spinning, causing a difference in speed between the front and rear
driveshafts and bringing the viscous gizmo into play to send some torque
to the front. 

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR WITH a center differential

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 13:17:28 -0500
From: "barnett childress" <barnett=childress%Eng%EMCHOP1@fishbowl02.lss.emc.com>
Subject: re::Disco, SUV safety.

>My friends are informing me that I drive an "unsafe" vehicle.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm in an accident I would rather 
be in a LR with a good solid frame and (roll cage), than some unibody 
piece of junk.

>SUV's cost more to fix than cars. Foreign SUV's are even more expensive 
to repair.

Duh! They cost more to begin with, and so do the parts.

After watching the way the media handles everything these days I have to 
wonder about the truth content of these reports. I have a hard time 
believing any of it. The number one item seems to be "shock value" for the 
best ratings, not truth in reporting.

While on the subject of safety. One thing I have noticed about the way 
some people drive...

It seems like air bags, anti lock brakes, Etc. have given the average SUV 
"mall hopper" the impression of invulnerability. All of these safety 
(improvements?) have there place, but these toys by themselves are not 
going to keep them safe. No matter (what) you drive the best "safety 
device" in the vehicle is you! Nothing will ever replace good driving 
habits and staying cool in a panic situation!

All of this reminds me of Consumer Reports wanting everyone to believe 
that SUV's are inherently unsafe. "Due to their high center of gravity, 
they don't handle like a car in a panic situation."

The bottom line is simple. If you make a habit of driving like an idiot 
your chances of having an accident are greater.

Now I guess there will be more legislation and higher insurance rates for 
SUV's? Does anyone know if insurance rates are calculated more for what 
type of vehicle you drive, or your driving record?

Sorry, just venting. (sick of government trying to legislate common 
sense).

Barnett
95 D90 with OME HD suspension (1.5 inches extra height), front/rear 
swaybars removed, and the brains to drive my LR safely and not take all of 
these consumer safety reports as the "truth". 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:20:17 -0800 (PST)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Borg Warner Transfer Box RR '89 Model Year onwards

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Gerald Tan wrote:

> The Viscous Coupling Unit (VCU) is fitted across the centre differential (not 
> instead of it), to automatically lock the differential when a significant speed 
> difference between front and rear prop shafts is sensed. Land Rover 
> optimistically state that it will lock up after half a wheel's revolution, but 
> that's another story.

Actually I've found it seems to lock quite immediately in the dirt and 
even squeals the tires in a tight turn on concrete. It also provides 
enough "give" in the drivetrain to prevent binding and hopefully damage 
due to wind-up as experienced in mechanically locked up vehicles used on 
rocks or pavement.

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:29:45 -0800
From: Christopher Boese <cboese@co.san-bernardino.ca.us>
Subject: Re: CAR and DRIVER article on 87 RR -Reply

John Brabyn wrote:

> This is in contrast to various "all wheel drive" vans and other pseudo
> 4X4's like the "Four Wheeler of the year" 1996 V8 Jeep Grand Cherokee
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> driveshafts and bringing the viscous gizmo into play to send some torque
> to the front.

Not to mention the "new" Ford Explorer, which is also always in 
two-wheel-drive until wheelspin at the rear is sensed and power is 
transferred to the front axle. Great for those slippery spots at the 
entrance to the mall parking lot.

-- 
Christopher Boese
County of San Bernardino, California
Information Services, Information Systems Security Office
'95 beluga black Discovery V8i

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:41:18 -0500 (EST)
From: m8f@ornl.gov (M Scott Fugate)
Subject: Waving

TeriAnn writes: "In my 109 I probably get a wave back in about one of every
300 to 400 Disco and range Rover close encounters.  i get a wave from about
one in ten Defender close encounters.  Heck, the last 88 that went by on a 2
lane road didn't even wave. "

Perhaps criticism should be directed away from the owners of the vehicles
specifically, and onto the populous in general.  Around here, if I can make
eye contact with another Rover driver, I get a return wave about 95% of the
time.  My wife tells of another RR driver waving furiously to her as they
passed on our city's main street after our last foot-deep snow storm.  We
went to church one morning during the same storm, and were flagged down by
another RR.  The guy driving it is a nationally known defense attorney. Just
wanted to talk Rovers for a second. 

People around here are just a bit more amenable to waving.  Heck, in the
neighborhood around my Dad's farm, nearly everybody waves at everybody.
It's subtle, though.  Procedure is thus: 1) With left or right hand at
either 11 or 1 o'clock (respectively)  raise index finger exactly 4 seconds
when another person is nearing closest point of approach. 2) Expect return
gesture.  3) More hearty waves are reserved for people you actually know.
Too bad in other parts of this country people are more likely to raise
another finger.

Additionally she says: "I just think they don't care."

Obviously not.  Have you considered moving to a place where the natives are
friendly?

Bye Y'all (wave).

Scott (No, I'm not affiliated with the Chamber of Commerce.) Fugate
Knoxville, TN

1970 IIa 88
1989 RR

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <trowe@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 12:48:08 GMT -0600
Subject: re::Disco, SUV safety.

> SUV's? Does anyone know if insurance rates are calculated more for what 
> type of vehicle you drive, or your driving record?
-
Call me cynical, but I expect it's dependent on which way they can 
get the most money.
Actually, I had an insurance co. in VT (I forget which) refuse to 
insure my LR because they didn't insure Jeeps anymore. (this after 
the 60 min. report years ago on rollovers)

Regarding "panic situations". Sure you can't avoid all of them (there 
will always be the idiot that will come from nowhere) but you can 
avoid alot of them by being aware of your surroundings and keeping an 
escape path open.

Case in point: In a construction zone outside of Cleveland where the 
left lane was closed, I was sitting in backed up traffic, the last 
car in line. I usually don't sit at lights etc, with the tranny in 
neutral, and this time it paid off. I heard tire squeals and the only 
place it could be coming from was behind me. I looked in my rearview 
to see a SUV nose down (read hard braking) with the boat he was 
towing, starting to come around. He obviously was depending on his 
brakes to keep from hitting me, which weren't going to do it. So I 
popped the clutch and pulled between the barrels into the left lane.
It was scarry, and I got quite an adrenaline rush about 15 minutes 
later. (the space left after he stopped was less than a car length.

So, it pays to be prepared (as much as you can) for the person who is 
driving beyond their limits, or not paying attention, or both. And 
don't depend on those safety devices to save your life.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
Madison,WI, USA
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:54:15 +0000
From: David Olley at New Concept <newconcept@tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Borg Warner Transfer Box RR '89 Model Year onwards

Gerald Tan wrote:
> The Viscous Coupling Unit (VCU) is fitted across the centre differential (not
> instead of it),

Thanks for that Gerald. I am glad that someone who has obviously looked at the 
drawings (or maybe inside a box) has come to my aid. I based my text on 
"hearsay", which was obviously incorrect. I am a simple Series soul, and cannot 
be expected to know about these fancy quiet, warm, comfortable vehicles!

I cannot see why a diff should be used, however, since it's only purpose is to 
allow for minor front/rear revolution differences. This is surely done by the 
VCU. Is this another case of design overkill? A cone clutch, rather like the old 
electro overdrives would surely be sufficient to lock the front/rear drive 
train.

I would love to see a drawing from the manual, showing the design. Any chance 
that you could fax me a copy?

Anyway, in the interests of accuracy, I will amend my web page on the subject.

If anyone else sees nonsense in my mutterings, I will be happy to be rebuked.

-- 
David Olley
.....................................................................................
Winchester, England
Tel: +44(0)1962-840769      Fax : +44(0)1962-867367
    Home Page:  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~newconcept
.....................................................................................

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 12:51:36 -0600
From: "John B. Friedman" <johannes@scribes.english.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: :Disco, SUV safety and Insurance costs

We have a 1990 Saab 900 sedan with abs, driver air bag but no burglar  
alarm., This was the safest car on the road at the time. We also have  
a 1995 Disco 5 speed manual. We are both middle aged non smoking  
drivers with perfect records. The insurance costs are
1805.00, with the SAAB costing 893.00 and Land Rover Discovery 912.00  
a year. This coverage is for  250k deductible. Bodily Injury  
Liability each person 500,000.00. Medical payments 50,000.00;  
collision 250.00 deductible; uninsured motorists 500,000 each  
occurrence; comprehensive 100.00 deductible on each car, towing 75.00  
per disablement.

I thought those figures were interesting in the light of this  
discussion. John B. Friedman

------------------------------

From: amaravil@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:59:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Dateline trashing of Disco?

I must agree with you on this one.  With all new cars now having crumple 
zones  they are going to be more costly to replace.  A car can be totalled 
now a days at 20mph, but baout 20 years ago when tey were built like tanks 
that wouldn't be the case.  I still believe one is safer in a head on crash 
with an SUV than in a car, because we are higher up.  I have been getting a 
lot sh_t about my discovery since this report, but many of these people come 
change their view once I speak to them.
THe reason why it is such big news is because our present society believes 
that SUV's are indestructable.  It can be seen on the highways during bad 
weather when SUV's pass you up going 55mph or faster.  When i bought my 
Pathfinder and Disco I knew what I was getting into, it is just plain common 
sense.  Bigger vehicle longer stopping distance and because on has 4 wheel 
drive it doesn't expempt one from sliping on ice or wet roads.  It just 
gives better traction in deep snow, gravel, sand, etc.
Did they mention that if a Porsche or Ferrari is damage in an accident that 
it would be expensive to fix those types of cars as well?As you said, since 
it is a foreign car of course it will be expensive.
Well I better get going now.  I can debate about this all day.
John Maravilla
'95 Bronze Discovery
No matter what NBC says, Rover's are still the best!
>On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Patty Burke wrote:

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 17 lines)]
>actually the RODEO was the worst---remember crash tests are like
>statistics --- if you set it up right you can make it say anything you want!

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Diesels vs Petrol
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 14:17:00 EST

From: azw@aber.ac.uk
Writes

" They are superb for idling thru probelms
feet off - about the best way to get em thru many, cos the governer
automatically compensates for the varying demasd on the engine."

Has anyone tried a cruise control tied to engine revs to achieve the same 
effect from the petrol engine.
ie dial in 1000 rpm, engine loads up control opens throttle. Dip clutch 
control, closes throttle etc.

Trevor "mr Gadget" Easton 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:16:51 +0100
From: lopezba@atnet.at
Subject: Re: Hand crank instead of winch

Trevor Easton wrote:
>A further use for the hand crank is by those of us who can't afford or don't 
>want a winch. With the vehicle in low first it is possible, if one is fit 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>only results in wheelspin.
>Trevor"puff, pant, grunt, groan" Easton

Trevor - maybe you left that little piece of info out by design, but it is 
usually recommended to remove all the spark plugs first, or you will really 
be puffing, etc.
Alternatively, have sombody step on the clutch pedal all the time.
Or do real men do it the hard way?
Peter Hirsch
SI 107in S/W
Vienna, Austria (officially 1,000 years old this November 1)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:16:43 +0100
From: lopezba@atnet.at
Subject: Re: Welding Birmabright

Gentle readers,
because of positive replies I will try and type the Land-Rover Series One 
Newsletter article about Birmabright welding on the weekend and mail it 
then. However, to provide reasonably complete information to the North 
American LRO's, can somebody mail me sources and/or alternative products in 
the US and/or Canada for the following products:

Lumiweld

As an alternative to Lumiweld you can use birmabright, but then you need:
Hari-Kari Aluminium Welding Flux
(sounds extremely unlikely, hope you can come up with an alternative!)
Till later
Peter Hirsch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:16:54 +0100
From: lopezba@atnet.at
Subject: Re: Pinzgauer

I was not going to respond to that, but I am only human, no matter what my 
fellow-workers say. So:
Benjamin Archer wrote:

>Subject: Re: Mercedes G

>Shall we correct this minor misunderstanding?  The Pinzgauer is a competant
>offroad truck, although it is cosnsiderably more expensive per unit that the
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
>before you even come close to looking at the political implications of the
>verdict. 

The LR is a very good compromise between a roadworthy vehicle and a very 
competent off-road vehicle. The Pinzgauer, IMNSHO, is much better off road, 
and a pain in the neck and several other parts of the body on the road. Some 
people would argue that it is important for a field ambulance to reach 
casualties pretty much whereever they are, and troop morale would be better 
for that reason. As for cost - the Vauxhall standard truck would have been 
even better price-wise, and easier to maintain than the LR. But:

>        Calling our government unfair for choosing the superior wolf is to
>be blind to the facts, upto =A3500m worth of orders relied on the purchace=
> of
>=A3200m worth of home grown produce.  

And that sums it up very neatly, and I have full sympathy for it. If Austria 
was going to spend so much money on its army (which it is not, thank 
heavens), I would hate to see the contract go abroad, too, EU or no EU. It 
does not change the basic truth: the Pinzgauer is more specialized and 
better off-road, and it is much more expensive for that reason.

>As to the claim that the Austrian is
>superior is misquoting the facts,  the Austrian was considdered the "Gold
>Plated Option," and unnecessarily costly for the role of a field ambulance.
>        I hope that straightens thing out slightly.

See above under Possibly Desirable Capabilities of a Field Ambulance.
Well, got it out of the system now, and that's that for me. Actually the 
original message was meant to be funny like ;>) or :-) or c=:>o (a 
frightened cook in case you don't know)...

>>> are Made in Austria, by the way, if I may say so, by Steyr-Daimler-Puch=
> who
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 11 lines)]
>>	intruded...
>Ben Archer
Peter Hirsch
SI 107in S/W
Vienna, Austria (officially 1,000 years old this November 1)

------------------------------

From: "DAVE MCKAIN" <MCKAIN@cemr.wvu.edu>
Date:          Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:31:26 EDT
Subject:       Re: Vacuum Advance

Vacuum advance is used to minimize pre-ignition in the cylinders 
during acceleration due to increased combustion chamber temperatures 
associated with that event. I think.

David McKain
1972 SIII SWB (parting)
1970 SIIA SWB (parting)
1969 SIIA SWB (rebuilding)
1959 SII Ex-Mil SWB
1963 SIIA SWB (parting)
mckain@cemr.wvu.edu
(304) 599-0120
Morgantown, WV
USA                     

------------------------------

From: "Hugh Grierson" <Hugh_Grierson@trimble.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:16:17 +1300
Subject: Re: D90 manual

> >and it looks great.  However, it didn't come
> >with a binder and I can't seem to find one.

> Just a normal A4 ring binder fits just fine -uinless you ar hellbant on 
> using all four holes........

But Andy, these wacky 'murcans aren't too hot on A4.
-- 
Hugh Grierson   hugh_grierson@trimble.co.nz  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:58:25 -0800
From: Kathryn Krages <krages@ohsu.edu>
Subject:  Insurance Question re 57 Series I

Thanks to all who responded two weeks ago to my husband's request for
advice about his flooded '57 Land Rover Series I 88 in Portland, Oregon. 
He drained all the fluids and found a good LR mechanic who is currently
working on it and thinks we got to it in time.  My husband also found the
last of the seat cushions which had floated away.

Now that it looks as if the vehicle may actually be driveable in a few
weeks, we have a question about determing the value to get car insurance. 
When I called our insurance agent last week, she couldn't find any Blue
Book value for the LR and said we needed some kind of proof of its value. 
We know how much we paid for it, but my husband and now this mechanic have
put a lot of work into it over the past two years.  Has anyone else had
problems obtaining insurance for an old Land Rover or setting its value? 
--Kathryn Krages
krages@ohsu.edu

------------------------------

From: Simon Barclay <sbar@jna.com.au>
Subject: RE: Dateline trashing of Disco?
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 07:47:00 EST

There were similar "findings" here is Oz. a couple of years ago (maybe last 
year!!) when two motoring bodies/insurance companies did crash testing on 
4WD's.  I think the Discovery came out worst of all in that situation.

But how many people drive at 38km/h head-on into a 50 tone block of 
concrete!!  Hasn't slowed their sales at all, there are everywhere.

There was another "finding" published before this which was the result of 
survey of 250,000 accidents in the states of New South Wale and Victoria 
which involved death or serious injuries and it listed the top 5 (most save 
vehicles) where these were (I think this was the order) 5 series BMW, 
Mercedes (can't remember the model) Pugote 504(sp??), Honda Prelude and 
Range Rover!

It also listed the worst 5 which included on or two small the Jap/Korean 
4wd's.

So you can read what you like into these things.  I've been driving Land 
Rover products for more than 20 years and I'm not going to change now 
because some insurance company tells me that the 50 tone block is going to 
win every time!

Simon Barclay
Sydney Australia
'90 5sp RR
'51 Series 1 (Louie)
 ----------
From: LRO-Owner
Subject: Dateline trashing of Disco?
Date: Wednesday, 28 February 1996 9:55AM

My friends are all informing me that I am driving an "unsafe" vehicle,
based on some "Dateline/NBC" report on the general lack of safety
standards in SUVs.  Apparently "Disco is the worst" of the lot.

All I know is that someone driving a Ford Taurus rear-ended me at
a speed that couldn't have exceeded 5MPH.  I did not feel the slightest
bump, only heard the CRUNCH of his demolished front-end (almost up to
his windshield!), and my Disco had a cracked bumper-light.  There was
absolutely no other evidence that I had been hit.

So, I am highly skeptical of these reports -- what kind of "tests"
were performed to suggest results so contrary to my personal experience?

I have my gripes about the quality control of LRNA Discos, but it seems
to be quite a sturdy vehicle to me.  I'm glad I won't have to pay the
sticker price for sure-to-be-legislated new safety requirements, but I am
annoyed that such reports will likely result in higher insurance rates
(now lower than what I was paying on my Audi--of course, that rate was

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 16:26:28 EST
From: jib@big.att.com (Jan Ben)
Subject: put D's with Series!!!

Re: splitting the list..

Why put the D90/110 with the plushmobiles? (Does my vote count?)
OK, then... where will a StageI go?  It's got a v8.. but it's
got springs.  And what about a series coiler conversion?

I think the split should be not along the "coils" vs. "leaves" line,
but along the "burmabright dash" vs. "burl" divide.

Just though I'd start something here.. :)
Jan 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:39:47
From: IIIDmentia@gnn.com (WILLIAM ADAMS)
Subject: Roadwheels needed

An expert in the field has informed me that I cannot run tubes in a tubeless 
tire for safety reasons. Since I have the riveted roadwheels I am now in the 
market for the welded kind so that I can install tubeless tires. 

Anyone with an extra wheel or two is invited to respond. Vehicle type is a 
1966 S2A Diesel Station Wagon.

I know that there are some out there hiding in a dark corner of of the 
garage. Grungy condition accepted.

Bill Adams
3Dmentia computer animation
4016 Spruell Drive
Kensington, MD 20895
301-949-9475

'66 Land Rover S2A 109" Station Wagon Diesel  ...all there

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Dateline trashing of Disco?
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:42:07 -0800

>My friends are all informing me that I am driving an "unsafe" vehicle,
>based on some "Dateline/NBC" report on the general lack of safety
>standards in SUVs.  Apparently "Disco is the worst" of the lot.

Wasn't "Dateline/NBC" the same show that, several years ago, showed how
unsafe the GMC pickups with "side-saddle" (i.e. on the outside of the
frame rails) fuel tanks were. They demonstrated that if you hit them
from the side and had a spark plug in the tank, it would explode?! Now,
there's a credible source!  (I went out after that show and removed all
spark plugs from the fuel tanks in my cars  :-)

>So, I am highly skeptical of these reports -- what kind of "tests"
>were performed to suggest results so contrary to my personal
>experience?

The web page at http://www.sofcom.com.au/4WD/A/Safety3.html shows the
result of a 1994 Disco after meeting a cement wall at 60 km/h (37 mph).
While I wouldn't want to play crash-test-dummy and find out for myself,
it looks like the cabin is relatively in-tact. Add an air-bag and it
looks downright survivable, though probably pretty uncomfortable. I'd
rather pay more to have my car replaced because it absorbed the impact,
then spend time in the hospital because I absorbed the impact. But I'm
funny that way, I suppose :-)
    _____
   /|__|_\__(|                           Bob Watson
  |   |   |  \                 a-robw@microsoft.com
  |---|___|___\____      Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA 
  |  _|=  |=  |o_  }\                
 [|_/_ \__|___|/_\_}|    '95 Beluga Black Discovery
    \_/        \_/                            N7UMU

>So, I am highly skeptical of these reports -- what kind of "tests"

------------------------------

From: TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:52:08 -0800
Subject: Re: put D's with Series!!!

I think the Defenders really belong in both groups and I hope that Defender
owners will subscribe to both lists.  The Defenders have many mechanical
things in common with the Discoverys and the Range Rovers that make contact
important.  However, the Defender is the modern day series Land Rover and
there are also a lot of parts that interchange there too.

You CAN subscribe to both groups.  Its not like anyone is saying you have a
series car so you can only subscribe to the series list.  Its a mater of
 WHERE YOU POST QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS.  Its not like a group of people have
to go away.  Its a matter  of paying attention to the address when posting to
make sure it goes into the right subject group.

TeriAnn

------------------------------

Date: 28 Feb 96 16:59:00 EST
From: <RALPH@smuggits.mhs.compuserve.com>
Subject: Frozen Bolts.

This is a quick plea for help. I was removing the exhaust on my 101 prior 
to fitting a new one and it seems I am the first to try this since it's 
construction. The bolts joining the front pipes to the manifold are 
seized (and rusted) in place. I have already snapped the head off one of 
them which I anticipate will cause me some problems. I have already tried 
all the standard tricks (plusgas, tapping, swearing etc.) and would be 
grateful if anyone has any ideas.

Thanks 

Ralph.

101 FC.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <trowe@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:04:13 GMT -0600
Subject: Re: Roadwheels needed

> An expert in the field has informed me that I cannot run tubes in a tubeless 
> tire for safety reasons. Since I have the riveted road wheels I am now in the 
-
Which expert? I bet I can find several that will say otherwise. I 
have asked tire mfg. that question and they said you could, but it 
was a waste. (unless of course your rims won't work with tubeless 
tires)
Anyway, I've done it on a Ford PU  with no problem, except the tubes stuck to the 
tires because they weren't dusted well enough with talc.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
Madison,WI, USA
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <trowe@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:24:13 GMT -0600
Subject: Re: Frozen Bolts.

> all the standard tricks (plusgas, tapping, swearing etc.) and would be 
> grateful if anyone has any ideas.

A nut cracker (and I don't mean a wayward handcrank). It's a tool 
has a ring that fits over the nut and has a sharp wedge (like a chisel) that's 
threaded. You crank it down onto the nut and it splits it. There may 
or may not be room to fit it in there though.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
Madison,WI, USA
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:50:20 GMT
From: Gerald Tan <gtan@bbchw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Re: Borg Warner Transfer Box RR '89 Model Year onwards

In your message dated Wednesday 28, February 1996 you wrote :

> Actually I've found it seems to lock quite immediately in the dirt and 
> even squeals the tires in a tight turn on concrete. 

I've always wanted to, but never had the opportunity, to compare a mechanical 
diff lock vs. viscous coupled vehicle, side by side, in a variety of situations.

Gerald.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Gerald Tan    EMail gtan@bbchw.demon.co.uk                              |
| Purely my own opinions - not those of my employer                       |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:43:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Snubbed by a Plushmobile

In a message dated 96-02-28 11:57:41 EST, (Ron Franklin) writes:

> (and was probably encouraged that a Land 
>Rover could look that bad and still run)
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>Rover could look that bad and still run)
>Bowdoin, Maine, USA

After about 2 minutes on the floor gasping for breath, I am just able to hold
my hand steady enough to say: "ha ha ha, Ron, ha ha ha."

Touche...
JOhn, D90

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:43:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Hand crank instead of winch

In a message dated 96-02-28 14:24:11 EST, you write:

Trevor - maybe you left that little piece of info out by design, but it is 
>usually recommended to remove all the spark plugs first, or you will really 
>be puffing, etc.
>Alternatively, have sombody step on the clutch pedal all the time.
>Or do real men do it the hard way?
>Peter Hirsch

So Peter, you are saying that a v8 Land Rover, like my Defender (if I were to
equip it for hand cranking), would require 3 people to start it via hand
cranks?  1 to push the clutch in, and the other two on the two cranks?

Where is my ignition key? 
John, D90, electric start...can you believe that?  

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:43:20 -0500
Subject: Re: put D's with Series!!!

I demand that the list not be split.

there.  solved. 

John, D90 (the series-style one...)

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:43:56 -0500
Subject: Re: CAR and DRIVER article on 87 RR -Reply

In a message dated 96-02-28 13:19:11 EST, you write:

>>   Please repeat: A VCU RR DOES NOT HAVE A CENTRE DIFF!
>Wait -- slight correction -- a VCU RR DOES have a center diff, 

series don't have center diffs...series don't have center diffs...series
don't have center diffs...series don't have center diffs...

what was that web page address?  oh yea...here it is...

series don't have center diffs...series don't have center diffs...series
don't 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:47:19 -0800 (PST)
From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Roadwheels needed

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, WILLIAM ADAMS wrote:

> An expert in the field has informed me that I cannot run tubes in a tubeless 
> tire for safety reasons. Since I have the riveted roadwheels I am now in the 
> market for the welded kind so that I can install tubeless tires. 

Huh?  Time for an informed second opinion, I think.  Based on my questions
along these lines, the problem comes when a tube made for bias ply tires
is used in a radial tubeless tire.  I've been running radial-type tubes in
nominally tubeless tires for many years with no known problem. 
 
Rgds,

Walt          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
              * Walter C. Swain         | wcswain@dcn.davis.ca.us       *
              * Davis Community Network | 1988 Range Rover              * 
              * Davis, California       | 1967 109 Series IIA Safari SW *
              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

------------------------------

From: Daryl Webb <dwebb@waite.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re:List splitting garbage
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:17:12 +1030 (CDT)

 Jan asks:
> OK, then... where will a StageI go?  It's got a v8.. but it's

Hey its simple,  I post my "brakes are playing up" question here and my 
"What is wrong with my CD175's?" to the Rangie list.

It isnt too painful to be subscribed to both, at least not yet (g)

-- 

  Daryl Webb   (dwebb@waite.adelaide.edu.au)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:51:59 -0600
From: William Owen <IB011CA@smtpaoc.tsc.state.tn.us>
Subject:  Re: Dateline trashing of Disco? -Reply

One thing that never seems to come out in press reports on passenger
safety tests is that the test simulates a collision with a like sized vehicle
or a solid wall.  Although compact car x may test well, in a collision
between compact x and a Suburban I'd rather be in the larger truck than
the highly rated compact.

As for insurance rates, my agent says costs of repair, esp parts, is the
main reason for LRs being so high.  My Cherokee is relatively cheap
despite it being an evil SUV.

Also, on Dateline's segment on the danger of raised  trucks, I didn't
notice any LR's at all in that piece.  :)   Perhaps dateline could suggest
that federal regulations require all SUV's be made with such good
suspensions that the modifications they criticized would not be
necessary.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:00:25 -0800 (PST)
From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us>
Subject: List splitting garbage

As much as I fail to see the need or desirability to split the list (being
a cross breed with family in each camp) I'm willing to do it if it will
avoid another round of garbage on the subject.  I did subscribe to the RRO
List some time ago (one of the 24 cited by Bill) and have gotten next to
no traffic, but I'm ready.  So let's do it or not, but let's not TALK about
it.  Enough is enuf. 

Rgds,

Walt          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
              * Walter C. Swain         | wcswain@dcn.davis.ca.us       *
              * Davis Community Network | 1988 Range Rover              * 
              * Davis, California       | 1967 109 Series IIA Safari SW *
              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

------------------------------

From: ericz@cloud9.net
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:08:13 -0800
Subject: Re: put D's with Series!!!

On Wed, 28 Feb 96, jib@big.att.com (Jan Ben) wrote:

>Re: splitting the list..
>Why put the D90/110 with the plushmobiles? (Does my vote count?)
>OK, then... where will a StageI go?  It's got a v8.. but it's
>got springs.  And what about a series coiler conversion?

Oh, and my therapist said I was starting to get over my identity conflicts....;)

>I think the split should be not along the "coils" vs. "leaves" line,
>but along the "burmabright dash" vs. "burl" divide.

What about the plastic ones?  Do we divide along the beer bottly friendly line? 
 :)

>Just though I'd start something here.. :)

You did!

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:34:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Hand crank instead of winch

> So Peter, you are saying that a v8 Land Rover, like my Defender (if I were to
> equip it for hand cranking), would require 3 people to start it via hand
> cranks?  1 to push the clutch in, and the other two on the two cranks?

	That is my understanding too...  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:41:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Roadwheels needed

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, WILLIAM ADAMS wrote:

> An expert in the field has informed me that I cannot run tubes in a tubeless 
> tire for safety reasons. Since I have the riveted roadwheels I am now in the 
> market for the welded kind so that I can install tubeless tires. 

	Rubbish...

> Anyone with an extra wheel or two is invited to respond. Vehicle type is a 
> 1966 S2A Diesel Station Wagon.

	The big Green Beastie, aka a 1964 IIA petrol Station Wagon with the
	same rims as you is running radial tires with radial tubes.  Note:
	Radial tubes go with radial tires and biasply tubes go with 
	biasply tires.  You cannot mix and match.  if you do, tube life is
	greatly reduced.  You do need tubes on your current rims.  Get
	the Michelin radial tubes.  

------------------------------

From: PDoncaster@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:56:56 -0500
Subject: Series Insurance

John Purnell wrote:

>I forget who was having problems with their insurance >carrier not correctly
identifying their Land Rover, but I just >got some renewal info and they
finally have it correct: State >Farm now acknowledges that I am in fact
insuring a 1994 >(year)  Land Rover (make) Defender (model) and they even
have >the correct VIN.

>John. #1336

That was probably me John, and to update;

I was prepared with postings from numerous people who have LRO's insured with
State Farm, and lots of other helpful information from LR gurus and from an
LRO insurance agent. I was ready for a battle, but it never happened. It
turns out that it is not my 64 IIA that they are afraid of, but, rather,  my
sordid history of moves, multiple licences and various aliases that they dont
like. 

Peter Doncaster
New Orleans, USA
'64 IIA 88 SW

------------------------------

From: TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 16:03:22 -0800
Subject: driving out the plushies

Upon reading Bills email about splitting the list this morning I put together
 a boiler plate letter and have been forwarding it to Disco & RR posters.  So
far only one flame.  I'm on a campain to drive them there plushies off our
range.

I noticed the new & vastly improved Europart web site today.

TeriAnn

Below is a copy of my boilerplate:
-----------

Your posting seem to have been accidently posted to the wrong Land Rover
List.  Ether that or you missed the message from the list admin stating that
the list was officially split.

  This list is for series Land Rover related subjects only.

You probably wanted to post your message in the Range Rover, Discovery,
Defender list.

I have provided a copy of Bill's announcement, along with the majordomo
information to help you make sure you are subscribing and posting to the
correct list.

 ---------- Bill's posting announcing the split -------------------

 The list is now *officially* split.

 You heard it here first.

 Majordomo will spell it out for you in the future.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 If rro gets enough spam (THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE),
 then I'll make adjustments as necessary.

>From: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>Subject: Majordomo results
>>>> lists
 Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net serves the following lists:

  rro                  Range Rover (& 90"/110"/Disco) Owners
                  
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  land-rover-owner     (Series) Land Rover Owners (world-wide, real-time)
     
                        ^^^^^^
  lro-digest           LRO mail in Digest form (<- START HERE !)
              
  lro-digest-ltd       LRO Digest Limited (split into pieces)
                 

  au-lro               Austrailia & New Zealand LRO (real-time)
               
  eu-lro               European LROs (real-time)
                              
  za-lro               South African LROs (real-time)
                         

  uk-lro               UK & IE LROs (real-time)
                               
  uk-lro-digest        UK & IE LROs Daily Digest
                              

  uk-arc               Association of Rover Clubs (UK)
                        
  uk-arc-nr            Attending the next ARC National Rallye
                 

    Ciao,
        --bill   caloccia@OpenMarket.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:09:14 +0000
From: David Olley at New Concept <newconcept@tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Borg Warner Transfer Box RR '89 Model Year onwards

Gerald, thanks for faxing me the drawings from the RR Manual.

They show very clearly the transfer box (epicyclic reduction gears) and 
the VCU. They do not show any detail of a differential unit, however. It 
appears to be contained within the hub of the driven sprocket which 
drives the VCU. I wonder what the diff unit looks like.

Item 7 in the drawing, though, is the reduction gear assembly, not the 
diff.

Thanks (but is there a drawing showing the diff?).

BTW I should cure my vibrations when I get a chance to deal with the 
gearbox. I suspect the bearings are shot.

-- 
David Olley
.....................................................................................
Winchester, England
Tel: +44(0)1962-840769      Fax : +44(0)1962-867367
    Home Page:  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~newconcept
.....................................................................................

------------------------------

From: smitha@mail.CandW.lc
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:19:39 -0500
Subject: Re: put D's with Series!!!

On Wed, 28 Feb 96, jib@big.att.com (Jan Ben) wrote:
>Re: splitting the list..

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 16 lines)]
>Jan 
>Or revive it?  I'll wave to any LR, but to me there are square LRs and 
contoured ones. The '95 90 I have is based on Series workhorse philosophy, 
as are most of the world's Defenders. The NAS90 is the only one with that 
level of plushness. Of course there are plenty of RR owners who know that 
their suspension went into the latest formidable square series, and use it 
similarly, but they there is nothing to stop them from subscribing to both.
>BTW, no LR drivers wave here, unless they are friends to begin with. I've 
never seen a more po-faced category of drivers. Up to a year ago I had been 
driving Lada Nivas for a decade and could always depend on a flash of 
headlights from any approaching Niva. (We use the electron version of the 
wave in this part of the world, lights, hooter (oops, horn), or both). 
Given the relatively small communities, there is a lot of flashing and 
hooting involved in driving through town.
Allan Smith
300 Tdi 90   el Galeon
St. Lucia 

------------------------------

From: smitha@mail.CandW.lc
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 20:21:09 -0500
Subject: Joy riders crash-test 90

Warmest greetings from St. Lucia
This morning I parked in an empty lot near my lab, and went to work. At 
lunch time, anticipating a relaxing hour on my verandah on the beach, I 
returned to the lot to find my vehicle 50 yards away, on the other side of 
the lot, with its nose smashed into the galvanised-iron sheeting fence 
around someone's yard. 
The vehicle was still locked, the ground was flat, it was in 2nd gear, and 
the battery was so dead that it probably won't be revived. 
I have had problems with the ignition switch for the past 2 weeks and have 
been expecting a replacement contact unit from the UK any day. So the first 
 thought was that the defective contacts had activated the starter, which 
had driven the car through the brush to crash into the wall. So, rip out 
the dash and steering column covers, extract the ignition contact unit (and 
if you have ever tried to remove both of the screws that hold it in, while 
the ignition/steering lock unit is in situ, you know what a pain it is). 
Then prise open the contact unit and find ..... ants! Hundreds of the 
buggers, live, squashed or electrocuted, all had contributed to weeks of 
problems, culminating in a  hot-wired joy-ride into an unresisting wall. 
After evicting the Hymenopteran joy-riders, and replacing the battery, 
everything worked, much to my surprise. I had expected a melt-down of the 
starter and other wiring. 

When I had the 90 custom-made last year, one of the many options was an 
under-body screen to prevent small animals from climbing into a warm engine 
bay at night and then getting the cuisinart treatment from the fan in the 
morning. They didn't tell me that 2mm long ants could totally disable one 
of Solihull's finest!
One last thing, with reference to today's postings of crumple zones, I only 
had to wipe some rust dust off my front bars; the iron fence is remodelled 
with a fold >. That makes 3 times that the bar has saved the front end - 
contact with loose cows and horses (a problem here and the reason I had the 
unit fitted) and now this. 
Allan Smith
300 Tdi 90   el Galeon
St. Lucia

------------------------------

From: SACME@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:39:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Snubbed by a Plushmobile

Thanks to all who responded, both directly to me and in the digest.

I think you all should know that I heard from the RR that snubbed me - a
gracious, apologizing, but most important, explanatory message.   I do not
think it is proper for me to give out his identity, but I think all of us
need to think about what he said.  First, he is a former 109 owner who
changed to a RR because it meets his needs of today much better.  The reason
he snubbed me, and I think this bears some thinking about, is that he assumed
that I was just another of those who, on the digest, heap scorn on anything
that isn't "Series".  To put it another way, his feelings were hurt long
before mine. I think we have both learned something we can use in the future
- stereotyping is wrong and unfair.  How would I have reacted if, a few miles
down the road, he was pulled over with a flat tire?  I would probably have
driven right by him!   

I have laughed myself silly at the plushmobile/series exchanges in the
digest, and will continue to do so when they are in fun or tongue-in-cheek,
but I/we need to pull back once in a while and acknowledge that unless the
Land-Rover name was to become ancient history only, Solihull had to move with
the times and build what would be sellable and what would meet the very
rigorous safety and pollution standards that exist today.  I drive a Series
III and I have, honest, never been in a Defender, Discovery or Range Rover.
 And you know what, I'm a little scared to try them out because I just might
find one of them irresistable...and a lot more comfortable for 55-year old
kidneys and eardrums.  At the same time, I'm sure some of the post-Series
owners who have been plagued with high-tech, especially EMU/ECU and the like,
problems envy those of us who can still see road on either side of the engine
block.  They have my sympathy and my promise of any help I can provide, even
if on the newer models it is probably about zip.

I have made two decisions: First, I'm not going to use the word "plushmobile"
any more in connection with Solihull products, and, second, I'm going to work
every way I can to foster inclusion of all Solihull products in the BB  -
starting with being the first to wave, and the first to stop and help, no
matter what has happended in the past.   (How many times have SERIES drivers
waved to me, and I just didn't see them??  How many post-Series drivers
weren't even born yet, or at least into cars, when I bought my Rover?  Why
should they be expected to recognize mine as part of the LR family,
especially in its current condition of multi-colors and mud?)

'Nough said, and apologies for excessive bandwidth.   

Doug (taken the BB Pledge) Scott 
2 ea. Older Solihull Lumps (OSLs for the acronym inclined) 
    

  

------------------------------

From: Mark.Kraieski@mailport.delta-air.com
Date: 28 Feb 96 19:46:19 -0500
Subject: RE: Dateline trashing of Disco?

Last night I watched my first and last episode of Dateline. What lousy, 
biased and cheap journalism! This is the video equivalent of the Star and 
Inquirer.

First up was a bunch of violent accidents involving lifted 4x4's. The point 
being that they are killing people in cars hit by them. In all cases shown 
the impact damage was excessive indicating high closing speeds - I seriously 
doubt the occupants would have survived regardless of the trucks' bumper 
height. Everything was heresay and innuendo, and opinion, no substantial 
facts.

At the end, after much torture to the viewers over the in-between segments, 
they finally showed the segment on Sport Utes. Contrary to some of the posts 
here, their point was NOT that these vehicles are unsafe - these were very 
low speed barrier impacts. Their point was that damage was excessive - and 
they are correct. They hinted at the real cause - worthless 2.5 MPH impact 
requirements for cars and none at all for trucks - and then blamed the 
manufacturers for designing vehicles that met all federal requirements. If 
10 MPH bumpers were mandated on sport-utes, they'd be there. This is an 
issue of standards, not shoddy manufacturers.

The other thing they did was refer to the vehicles as 4x4's - as if that 
made them unsafe. Every vehicle they showed, except the Disco, is available 
in 2WD and, in fact, I'm pretty sure the Rodeo was not 4WD. Boy did it 
crunch when they backed it into a pole! The Disco fell in the upper end of 
the repair damage range but they did not call it out special. It was 
interesting that they did NOT compare damage relative to vehicle cost, all 
were compared equally.

The report did convince me that I should order HD front and rear bumpers.

------------------------------

From: amaravil@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:58:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re:List splitting

Ok, this may be a stupid question, butnhow do I get off this list since I 
have a Discovery, and how do I get on the new one?  
Thanks,
John Maravilla
(The internet ignorant one)
'95 Discovery

------------------------------

From: TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:18:07 -0800
Subject: Re: driving out the plushies-oopps

I do appologise

I did NOT mean for that message to go out to the entire list
It was supposed to go to one person.

I do appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do
appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do
appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise

Ooooppps

TeriAnn 

------------------------------

From: Daryl Webb <dwebb@waite.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: space shuttle tiles
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:52:18 +1030 (CDT)

Stage 1 Eric writes:
> Just because I seriously considered getting a radar detector for my series 
> vehicle.....:)  :)  :)

What I want is a speed camera detector, the local plod have a couple of 
incriminating photos of VRB-298.. (not as good as the LRW one though :-)

John White suggests:
> Why stop there?  I'd check with NASA about getting some of those heat shield
> tiles they use on the space shuttle.

No thanks, stage 1's have enough cracked body panels as it is......

-- 

  Daryl

------------------------------

From: Daryl Webb <dwebb@waite.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: driving out the plushies-oopps
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:59:31 +1030 (CDT)

> Ooooppps

Nah Nah nan Nah NaH, TerriAnn's got a new mailer, TerriAnn's got a new 
mailer.
(dontchu just luv it when they upgrade to something "user friendly" you 
dont understand)

It's OK "Mum" we understand.

 TerriAnn's got a new mailer, TerriAnn's got a new mailer..........

Your loving son
-- 

  Daryl

------------------------------

From: smitha@mail.CandW.lc
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:35:29 -0500
Subject: Re: driving out the plushies

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com wrote:
>Upon reading Bills email about splitting the list this morning I put 

together
> a boiler plate letter and have been forwarding it to Disco & RR posters. 
 So
>far only one flame.  I'm on a campain to drive them there plushies off our
>range.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
>Your posting seem to have been accidently posted to the wrong Land Rover
>List.  Ether that or you missed the message from the list admin stating 
that
>the list was officially split.
>  This list is for series Land Rover related subjects only.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
>Defender list.
>Then as far as I'm concerned, the US Series aficionados, whom I admire 
greatly for their commitment and knowledge, will be separated from the rest 
of the world's Defenders, which are a part of the Series evolution. My 
custom-built 90 has little in common with the NAS90. If US buyers could 
order the type of Defender that comes here there would be no temptation to 
 relegate the model to plushworthiness. The 300 Tdi 90 is the latest 
vehicle to carry the Series banner, as far as I'm concerned. 
To quote an interested bystander at the gas station recently: *Yes man, das 
da bes jeep you have*
Like the USA, much of the world has had a hiatus in LR  presence, but 
people here still recognize a  1995 90 as the next in line to the the 
models that were here 20 years ago. 
Sorry, but the Defender is a series vehicle in most of the world and I like 
the international aspect of the net. 
Allan Smith
300Tdi 90    el Galeon
St. Lucia

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:38:00 -0800 (PST)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: List split, Boneshakers, Plushmobiles

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Jan Ben wrote:

> Why put the D90/110 with the plushmobiles? (Does my vote count?)...
> I think the split should be not along the "coils" vs. "leaves" line,
> but along the "burmabright dash" vs. "burl" divide.

Folks -- I trust you will take my following comments with a grain of 
salt, tongue in cheek, and in the spirit of camaraderie in which they are 
intended -- as I cannot resist a parting ramble on this subject.

As someone who is rather irritated to find suddenly that the list is to be
split (my fault since I have been ignoring all previous traffic on the
subject thinking it's just the annual debate) I am glad that at least the
Defenders will be in with the "plushmobiles". For the mechanical type
questions this makes the most sense since the running gear is all nearly
identical.

For off roading discussions (and also sheer mechanical know-how) it will
be a severe blow to lose the Series folks who (at least in the US)
possibly do more of it than either type of modern machine -- since most
Defenders here are currently status symbols exceeding Range Rovers in
prestige. 

Regarding the "burmabright versus burl" divide, this phrase is an
interesting new variant on the old and enjoyable series of veiled insults
to the latter group by the former, generally in the context of defending
the old as superior to the new. This is generally a one-way criticism (we
seldom see "plushmobile" owners assaulting the behaviour of Series owners
-- although such barbs could equally readily be composed. There isn't even
a semi-derogatory name for Series machines that's equivalent to the
oft-used "plushmobile" term). Even though we plushmobile folks have
generally had the losing end of this exchange, despite my futile efforts
to restore the balance, I will sorely miss this amusing aspect of the
combined list. 

In order to provide some hope for the future of this debate, I hereby
propose that counterparts to the "plushmobile" terminology be developed,
possibly with a grant from the Ministry of Silly Names.  It looks like the
list is to be split along the Coil versus Cart spring lines, whereas the
philosophical divide is more on the "BONESHAKER VERSUS PLUSHMOBILE" lines,
with Defenders suffering an identity crisis and falling somewhere in
between. 

In any case this "divide", such as it is, is more likely to be reduced if
the groups stick together and keep communicating than if they are forced
apart. So if the list has to be split it's good to include some
Burmabright in with the Burl! 

So -- I vote for keeping the Defenders in with the Range Rovers and 
Discoverys if we must be split. 

My apologies for these sentimental ramblings

John Brabyn
Incorrigible plushmobile devotee

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:46:51 -0800 (PST)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Snubbed by a Plushmobile

This was a great message to read and expresses sentiments most of us 
share -- it will be sad to miss out on things like this in the future 
when in the immortal words of TeriAnn we plushies are driven off the 
Series turf!! (no offense taken TeriAnn!)

Cheers and good wishes to all

John Brabyn
plushie who waves

On Wed, 28 Feb 1996 SACME@aol.com wrote:

> Thanks to all who responded, both directly to me and in the digest.
> I think you all should know that I heard from the RR that snubbed me - a
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 48 lines)]
> Doug (taken the BB Pledge) Scott 
> 2 ea. Older Solihull Lumps (OSLs for the acronym inclined) 

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: driving out the plushies (or snubbed by a series)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:24:18 -0800

>From: 	TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com[SMTP:TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com]
>Subject: 	driving out the plushies
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
>our
>range.

If it weren't for my thick (aluminum) skin, those would sound like
fightin' words. While I'm fundamentally opposed to changing things for
the sake of PC-ness (Politically Correct)-ness, "on a campain (sic) to
drive them there plushies..." has an ominous tone about it. :-( I
thought we were all in this together.
    _____
   /|__|_\__(|                           Bob Watson
  |   |   |  \                 a-robw@microsoft.com
  |---|___|___\____      Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA 
  |  _|=  |=  |o_  }\                
 [|_/_ \__|___|/_\_}|    '95 Beluga Black Discovery
    \_/        \_/Plushness is only upholstery deep.  

>From: 	TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com[SMTP:TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 01:49:06 UT
From: "Mark Talbot" <Land_Rover@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Roadwheels needed

I have a good set of 4 with BF Goodrich 31X15 on them, good tread for at least 
another 20K miles. These wheels came off a SIIA. 15"

Mark

----------
From: 	WILLIAM ADAMS
Sent: 	Wednesday, February 28, 1996 4:47 PM
Subject: 	Roadwheels needed

An expert in the field has informed me that I cannot run tubes in a tubeless 
tire for safety reasons. Since I have the riveted roadwheels I am now in the 
market for the welded kind so that I can install tubeless tires. 

Anyone with an extra wheel or two is invited to respond. Vehicle type is a 
1966 S2A Diesel Station Wagon.

I know that there are some out there hiding in a dark corner of of the 
garage. Grungy condition accepted.

Bill Adams
3Dmentia computer animation
4016 Spruell Drive
Kensington, MD 20895
301-949-9475

'66 Land Rover S2A 109" Station Wagon Diesel  ...all there

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:11:14
From: IIIDmentia@gnn.com (WILLIAM ADAMS)
Subject: Re: Joy riders crash-test 90

No, this is too wierd. I think you are making this one up. Besides, if it is 
for real, you deserve it for living on a tropical island while the rest of us 
throng suffer up here in the cold.

Bill Adams
3Dmentia computer animation
4016 Spruell Drive
Kensington, MD 20895
301-949-9475

'66 Land Rover S2A 109" Station Wagon Diesel  ...all there

------------------------------

From: TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:50:45 -0800
Subject: Re: List split, Boneshakers, Plushmobiles

John,

I really think defenders belong in both lists and I hope all Defender owners
will join both lists  and contribute to the plushie list for drive train &
running gear stuff and the series list for body and soul.

TeriAnn
I know a new series car when I see one

------------------------------

From: spatzek@alaska.net
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 18:55:21 -0900
Subject: Re: tire step

For the person looking for the wheel-steps (they fit over the front or rear 
wheel and let you reach the top of the roof) they can be found in any issue of 
LRO Magazine, the specific vendor is 4 x 4 Simmonites. Yes, these appear to be 
the same family that races every off-road major race in England.

Paul Spatzek
hopefully a Rover in the future

------------------------------

From: jpappa01@interserv.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:58:03 -0800
Subject: Re: What's the point?

A program with a history of crummy credentials, NBC's *Dateline* has seen fit 
to be bribed, or em, er, *asked* to do a completely objective report on damage 
performance of sport utilities. All I can say is.... here we go again.

Last year, *trucks* outsold *cars* in the USA. Think about it. Bigger 
vehicles, more mass, more weight, more force with distance, etc. etc. So they 
get and sustain some damage. Report didn't deal with crashworthiness and 
occupant protection. So perhaps the Insurance Institute is getting tired of 
paying claims out of the interest accrued by their zillions of 
premium-generated portfolios. More and more of these types of vehicles are 
around, so... surprise, more accidents. More claims.

And of course, Dateline, fresh from their GM truck phonied-up camera work 
debacle, can't resist jumping in with both feet to generate some ratings on a 
dead and dying show.

I'm really unclear as to what the show proved. The word *flimsy* is used to 
describe them because damage results to sheet metal when struck into a solid 
barrier. No sheet, shorelick! What about the robust undercarriage, heavy 
chassis, etc. Most 18-wheelers have fiberglass cabs that you can actually see 
flutter in the wind. I guess that these are *really flimsy* vehicles. 
Sheesh.... Another crusade. Just what we all need...

cheerz
Jim - sick and tired of the media trying to destroy anything that is doing 
well...

`67 2A 88 5.0L hybrid
`67 2A 109 5.0L hybrid
`68 2B 110 F/C diesel
`70 P6B 3500S
`90 Range Rover County
`93 D110 (#357/500)
`93 D90 #1958

------------------------------

From: David Scott Mary Ann <birddog@auburn.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Europarts-gene
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:14:14 -0600

Lets not look over a fact.  Gene at europarts was deceitful in his first =
post.  Nothing wrong with Capitalism on either side of the pond.  There =
is a hell of a lot wrong with dishonesty anywhere.  Screw europarts.. =
and here here to the digest member who exposed him! birddog

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:15:50 -0500
From: michelbe@login.net (Michel)
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

On Tuesday, Feb 27, Douglas wrote:

>#2: Nissan has a similar TV add showing
>their vehicle being chased by a Rhino,
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>and not at all treading lightly.
>Kinda makes you think...

Have you realized that in every single NISSAN add or picture featuring a
Pathfinder, this particular truck has a full-equipped roof rack filled with
luggage to the limit, although there is absolutely nothing inside the truck
except for the driver. Looks like the Pathfinder has a lot of fuel to waste
or a centre of gravity so low it can afford such luxury. I think their
marketind department never left the pavement....

Michel Bertrand
Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada

1963 109 PU (Rudolph)
1968 109 SW (ex-Mada, in the works)
1973 88 SW (21st century project)

------------------------------

From: William Terry <wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com>
Subject: Lists
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:31:44 -0500 (EST)

I proposed this once before, but didn't seem to get much response. I've also seen related suggestions.

To me the rro list represents a loss of comraderie as does the lists for locales.

How about a suite of tech lists and a general owner's list? Such as:
Series-tech
RR-tech
Def-tech and
LR-enthusiasts

The tech list would be just that. After all what percentage of RR tech is going to help me with my IIA? But the non-tech stories, humor, comraderie, etc. of RR owners is something I don't want to miss.

I would sub to the Series-tech and LR-enthusiasts lists to get the parts of the LR correspondance I want without the traffic which doesn't apply to my situation or interest. I would get OZ stories about biltong and how to tune my Series carb. Someone who owns a RR and Def
could get their useful tech and still get stuck, um, enjoy my stories without having to deal with my requests for technical help.

To me list splits by vehicle or location splits the group. I'm suggesting splitting the list by topics of interest (and pertinance), and the group stays together for the general LR-enthusiasts topics.

______________W__i__l__l__i__a__m_____D__a__n_____T__e__r__r__y______________
  How do we acquire wisdom along with all these shiny things? (David Brin)

  wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com
  http://glenfiddich.minerva.bah.com:8062/CyberJungle.html
  MINERVA Development Team, Booz, Allen & Hamilton

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:39:16 -0500 (EST)
From: John Antram <rewt@sover.net>
Subject: Waving, Series VS New Rovers and other recent things.

	Series / RR / Discovery Waving:

	I wave at most every Solihull product I see; occasionally I can't
tell it's a Discovery or new RR untill they're right next to me (headlights
being so damned bright - is this why I don't get waved to? or is it that
I'm already making a scene waving?) I think some people who aren't waving
back are people that wouldn't fit in with the overall attitude of this
list. These people bought thier Rovers for whatever reason but don't seem
to understand much more then 'Its better then a j**p and it has leather' -
Not a great loss IMHO. I continue to wave and make a scene when I see
them, and leaving notes on windshields to join our new local Rover group
if they're in town for a couple of days or more. So, if you're visiting 
Middlebury, Vermont - that's my note under your wiper. :)

	Splitting the List:

	I, for one - have both... and my father in law has an 89' RR so 
I'm interested in almost every post. ( I can't afford a Def90 (too!)) I 
don't think its a good idea no matter what the volume.

	Local Rover Group:

	We have just started a local group, and I'd like advice from 
other people who have worked in or setup groups; mainly, when did you 
become official with the State/Federal people? We have about 25 members 
and we hope to have hands-on repairs and with any luck, a driving day 
this summer and naturally we'll see everyone at Down East & British 
Invasion.

	My Series rover:

	After being called 'the worst' in respect to its mechanicals ( 
Frame, swivel balls, brake system etc etc ) my $500 rover is turning into 
a $6000 project. Not that I mind... even just a little driving around the 
field caused my friends and I to grin like idiots for hours. So, when it 
is paid for (tommorow) I hope to see it again soon. ( Yes, I wimped and 
had somone who knew what they were doing do my first frame-over and the 
springs and most of the other major things.) I'm not sure I'll be driving 
it when its -25F here in Vermont, but we'll see.

John Antram	rewt@sover.net     RR 3 Box 888 Middlebury, VT  05753
1972 Land Rover Series III 88", sunrooves (badly improvised by PO), Red
1995 Land Rover Discovery, 5-speed, sunrooves, Roman Bronze
1987 Mercedes-Benz 300SDL, Anthracite Gray

------------------------------

From: ASFCO@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:58:14 -0500
Subject: Re: :Disco, SUV safety and Insurance costs

John,    What part of the country are you from??

Rgds, Steve

------------------------------

Subject: Re: driving out the plushies-oopps
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 21:14:04 -0000
From: Hugo Madden <madhugo@best.com>

>I do appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do
>appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do appologise, I do
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>Ooooppps
>TeriAnn 

Don't worry TeriAnn, the Plushies Revenge will catch up with you one day 
(BTW, do you have some Lucas electronics in your computer?  I thought you 
worked for Apple!)

Hugo

Plushie, Poupon and Proud of it.

                                                        _______
                                                       //_/_|__\___
                                                       \_ - ___ - _d 
                                                         (o)   (o)

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Pinzgauer
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 21:18:14 -0000
From: Hugo Madden <madhugo@best.com>

>heavens), I would hate to see the contract go abroad, too, EU or no EU. It 
>does not change the basic truth: the Pinzgauer is more specialized and 
>better off-road, and it is much more expensive for that reason.

'bout time we split out a Pinzgauer list, IMHO

                                                        _______
                                                       //_/_|__\___
                                                       \_ - ___ - _d 
                                                         (o)   (o)

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Vacuum Advance
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 21:35:50 -0000
From: Hugo Madden <madhugo@best.com>

>Vacuum advance is used to minimize pre-ignition in the cylinders 
>during acceleration due to increased combustion chamber temperatures 
>associated with that event. I think.

I always understood that vacuum advance was an emission control thing.  
As somebody has already said, the timing needs to be advanced smoothly as 
rpm increases to ensure optimum combustion efficiency at all engine 
speeds.  This is effected by weights in the distributor which move 
outwards by centrifugal force as rpm increases and physically rotate the 
points backwards slightly.  

This centrifugal advance means that at zero rpm (i.e. as the engine is 
started), the timing is sifgnificantly retarded (equal in fact to the 
static advance that you would dieal in with the timing light during tune 
up).  While this is just fine for starting, it doesn't make for a very 
clean-burining idle.  To meet current emissions regs, it's necessary to 
advance the timing somewhat while the engine is idling.  The centrifugal 
advance doesn't really kick in significantly at idle.  The vacuum advance 
system provides the necessary ignition advance by taking ported vacuum 
from the carburettor to give finer advance and hence emissions at idle 
and off-idle conditions.  Once the throttle is opened, the vacuum signal 
to the vacuum advance drops to nothing, however by now the engine has 
begun to accelerate and the centrifugal advance has kicked in.  There is 
never any significant vacuum advance under acceleration 'cos the throttle 
is open too far.

                                                        _______
                                                       //_/_|__\___
                                                       \_ - ___ - _d 
                                                         (o)   (o)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:01:10 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Lists

At 23:31 28.02.96 -0500, William Terry wrote:

[snip]

How about a suite of tech lists and a general owner's list? Such as:
Series-tech
RR-tech
Def-tech and
LR-enthusiasts

The tech list would be just that. After all what percentage of RR tech is
going to help me with my IIA? But the non-tech tories, humor, comraderie,
etc. of RR owners is something I don't want to miss.

============================================

I like it!  I like it!  This makes more sense than chopping us up along
purely model lines.

Cheers!
John
'95 Discovery
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 02:37:19 -0500
From: landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mike Loiodice)
Subject: Re: driving out the plushies-oopps

TeriAnne sez....

>I did NOT mean for that message to go out to the entire list
>It was supposed to go to one person.
>Ooooppps
-

And we all thought it was just the West Coast List Police in action....  :)

Cheers
Mike

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:48:30 +0000
From: Arron <asd1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: space shuttle tiles

All you need to protect yourself from Radar traps and speeding 
cameras is a special covering for your landy.  I'm sure if you ask the 
Pentagon they will supply you with enough to cover your landy, just ask 
for the material that they cover the stelf bomber in.  The material has a 
special quality that effectivly absorbs all the energy from enemy radar, 
just like impedance matching on our own internet links.  The downside is 
its expensive and makes the stelf bloody difficult to fly, however it 
would have to be serious stuff to make a landy handle worse.

	arron

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:57:30 +0000
From: Arron <asd1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Lists

Split the lists.

	Well how ?

	Instead of you type i.e. Series, Defender, RangeRover & Disc's, 
how about by DRIVER ATTITUDE.  As I'am sure I'm gona affend here I'll 
make it short.

	Some drivers out there of LANDROVER products just sit on this 
list and BITCH about the state of the list ( use the delete key ).  If 
you really intend to getr the list split up more try these cats..

	Casual landy owners ( all types )
	Serious off roaders ( series, ranges, defenders )
	Green laners
	AND THE BITCHING REST

	Once again just delete the messages you dont want to read ( Crist 
you dont need a vast I.Q. toi grasp that idea ).

	Arron

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:28:16 +0000
From: Arron <asd1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Lists

Sorry about the typo errors in the last message but I was in a 
rush to get to a lecture.

Arron

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer <Alan_Richer.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 29 Feb 96  6:38:39 EST
Subject: jgoldman, are you out there?

Sorry about the waste of bandwidth, but I have some manifold studs for him and 
a disk crash took my address book out....damn Lucas computers.

     ajr

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Feb 96 6:48:02 -0500
From: "barnett childress" <barnett=childress%Eng%EMCHOP1@fishbowl02.lss.emc.com>
Subject: re:Re: driving out the plushies-oopps

Well Terriann, just showing your true colors?
Barnett

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
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