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From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date:  8 Jan 96  5:09:07 EST
Subject: 15" speedo with 16" wheels - what's the error?

Yup - my old 109 was fitted with one.

And I always wondered why it read low..... 8*)

    Alan

P.S.: Anybody got a spare 16: unit they want to sell? 

    ajr

------------------------------

From: Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmth.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Polybushes
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 11:20:20 GMT

Mark Talbot wrote:

>Any coil sprung land Rover owners fitted the poly bush kit ? My 88 RR is in 
>need of bushing job at the front and I was wondering what you lot thought of 
>them, or see if anyone had fitted them ?

When I bought my '85 Rangie this Summer, it was wandering all over the
road due to a split front radius arm inboard bush. A new set of
polybushes sorted it out beautifully.

I wouldn't use polyurethane bushes if you want a cushy ride. They do
increase road vibration and noise, but not seriously. They'll not cure
Rangie cornering wallow either, as they're neither an anti roll bar,
nor a lowering kit. I'd still recommend them though. They transform
steering accuracy when changing lanes on motorways.

Two sorts of bush kit are available; one piece and two piece. Opinions
vary as to the best sort. Two piece are easier to fit, but no-one can
agree which is more reliable in service. One piece are reputed to fall
out (if you can push them in, you can push them out), but two pieces
tend to split in the middle and work their way sideways. I've no idea
which is best - I've used both and never had serious trouble.

There are two sizes of bushes for Rangies, changing in '87 (I think)
and naturally they're incompatible. Mine had the old sort, but
appeared to have a new size panhard rod fitted. Fortunately my
supplier agreed to supply individual bushes and credit me for the
unused ones - imagine trying that with a boxed set of Ironman.

To extract old bushes, I burn the rubber out, then split the steel
liner with two hacksaw cuts and chisel out the strip between them.
Don't just start hammering away, as it's too much like hard work. You
don't need a press.

To refit the new bushes, press the two parts in by hand, then squeeze
the inner steel tube in with a vice. Use washing up liquid if you need
a lubricant.

To change the front axle, refit the driver's side first. It's easier
this way, as you have more room to swing it about when the axle is
loose at both sides. The side with the steering drop arm on it needs
all the manipulating room you can get. Refitting is easier if you take
both sides off together, but you can do one at a time if you wish.

--
Andy Dingley                                dingbat@codesmth.demon.co.uk

The Internet has given us all mountains of information at our fingertips.
...and all most people want to do is pick their noses with them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 07:49:31 EST
From: "Steve Reddock" <steve_reddock@uk.xyratex.com>
Subject: Temperature

/internet
/to tdelve@nectech.co.uk
/report
/end
Hi Trefor,
  
Still no progress on the gearbox. The starter has jammed (full of mud I
suspect) so the whole thing is stuck up against the garage wall parked
on top of about 3 inches of mud from when I jet washed it.
  
I'm just waiting for enough dry weather to do something about it as
always.
  
I have absolutely no problems with cooling. Only once have I had it get
hot. After I went off-roading at xmas it was too cold to clean properly
so the rad stayed mud clogged. The mud was all over the bonnet, so a rad
full is guaranteed. Sitting at a steady 70 MPH for a few hours the gauge
read about 120 degrees, but never seemed to boil over. I have towed a
fairly heavy trailer from Brum to Pompey on the hot part of the heat
wave with no trouble and even the Pompey traffic jams don't seem to
bother it.
  
The only heat trouble I get is the passenger footwell is very warm, even
hotter than my friends IIa petrol. Perhaps this was indicative of the
gearbox failure which has now occurred.
  
With the roof & doors off this wasn't a problem. I don't know about the
legality of this, but I have been seen by several police cars and never
been stopped.
  
Perhaps your rad is clogged internally?
Maybe 3/4 is your thermostat temp.  Ford standard stats are 92 degrees.
Is the land rover one lower?  Perhaps the mid point of the gauge is
say 86 degrees and 3/4 is 92.  Temp gauges are very non-linear.
The middle 2/3 of the scale only covers a small range ( say 85-115
degrees) whilst the full span is about 40 - 140 degrees.  Consequently
a large movement on the gauge could correspond to a few degrees in
temperature.
  
It could be worth a controlled experiment where you block off the
rad with some card and see what temperature is held whilst the car
is stationary.  If the 3/4 temp is held for ages without boiling then
it could be that is your stat temp, but if the normal (half way?)
temp is held for a while followed by ever increasing temp then I am
barking up the wrong tree.
  
My gauge is much simpler as it has real numbers for the temperatures.
  
Does anybody know at what temperature a 50:50 mixture boils whilst under
a 13psi (I think) pressure cap?  I have seen 120 without any problems
and no water / steam coming out of the overflow.
  
I tell a lie.  It did nearly overheat once.  At the hill rally I set off
at first in low ratio in extreme heat at a very high pace.  Flat out
in fourth with lots of hard acceleration saw the temp gauge rise to 120
  
fairly rapidly.  When I engaged brain & realised speeds where too high
for even high ratio things cooled down to a sensible level.
  
Happy Land-rovering, Steve
  
Steve Reddock                         Product Evaluation, 26/12
Xyratex                  Ext.(01705) 486363 x4450  Int.721-4450
REDDOCK at HVTVM         Internet: Steve_Reddock@UK.XYRATEX.COM

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:41:24 -0500
From: Rick Jaffe <rsj@ny.ox.com>
Subject: Disco won't start in cold weather

My Disco has since Saturday failed to start.  The battery is still
okay, but the engine won't turn over.  I've tried Dry Gas.  In this
storm no tow truck can get up our driveway, so the Land Rover 800
number is of no help.  I know of three other Discos in the northeast
with identical symptoms.

Help.

Rick Jaffe

USMail:   OTA Limited Partnership, 1 Manhattanville Rd., Purchase, NY 10577
Phone:	  +1 914 694-5800 x230	FAX:	+1 914 694-5831
Internet: rsj@ox.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:07:14 -0500
From: benedick@pa.net (Darwyn/Kris Benedict)
Subject: 4.0 Stuck in the snow

Good Morning All:

Well, it just stopped snowing here in Southern Pennsylvania and I can't get
an accurate measurment, but it's 2+ FEET!  My husband took his 4.0 out to
try to get to the local hospital (to help try to transport personnel) and
got as far as our neighbors' driveway (Probably 100 feet).  The snow is so
deep that he said it is lifting the vehicle up.  I did take pictures.  It's
over the headlights.  As I walked to take the pictures, it was up to my
waist (I'm 5'4") and very hard to walk in.

Sorry to all of you that have the cold without the snow (that stinks!) and
BTW I heard the wheather people are calling for another "significant snow
fall" on friday!

I'll be shoveling for the rest of the week (or month)

Kris - 94 Disco.- Thumper

P.S.
Please, Don't brand me (us) a yuppie but rather hard workers!

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: 12 noon or midnight
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 09:35:00 EST

Dave Rosenbuam wrote is 12pm noon or midnight? 12pm doesn't exist since p.m. 
is post meridiem (after noon) and a.m. is ante meridiem (before noon) 12.00 
can only be noon or midnight
12.00.01 could be pm or am. If it really matters use 24 hr clock or state 
specifically noon or midnight.

Trevor Easton

------------------------------

From: Mr Ian Stuart <Ian.Stuart@ed.ac.uk>
Date:          Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:33:13 +0000
Subject:       Re: 15" speedo with 16" wheels - what's the error?

On  8 Jan 96, Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus wrote:

> Yup - my old 109 was fitted with one.
Me too

> And I always wondered why it read low..... 8*)
I've always reckoned on about 10% - however I've also got a frayed 
speedo cable as well (35mph on the clock and I'm overtaking artics. -- 
uphill!)

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
 <http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/> or <http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/>

Quote of 1995: "The archididascalus is to be rusticated and will
                cease to be an abecedarian on the 1st of April"

------------------------------

From: Russell Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Disco won't start in cold weather
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 6:51:06 PST

My range rover has a tendincy to flood in cold weather.
If you step on the gas at all, it will flood.
Last winter I had to remove all the spark plugs, and dry them
off as Mt wife pumped the gas a couple of times while trying
to start the beast.
I was also at the dealer that day and noticed lots of
Range Rovers which has flooded.

Russ
> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 19 lines)]
> USMail:   OTA Limited Partnership, 1 Manhattanville Rd., Purchase, NY 10577
> Phone:	  +1 914 694-5800 x230	FAX:	+1 914 694-5831
> Internet: rsj@ox.com

------------------------------

Subject: Disco won't start in cold weather
From: david@stat.com (David Dodell)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 07:22:41 MST

Rick Jaffe <rsj@ny.ox.com> writes:

> My Disco has since Saturday failed to start.  The battery is still
> okay, but the engine won't turn over.  I've tried Dry Gas.  In this
> storm no tow truck can get up our driveway, so the Land Rover 800
> number is of no help.  I know of three other Discos in the northeast
> with identical symptoms.

Just one suggestion, I had a strange symptom the first time I filled up
my 96 Disco with gas.  It just wouldn't turn over.  Found out that the
connector to the fuel pump was loose.  Look under the left rear tire ...
right above the tire against the frame you'll see a connector/wire.
Pull apart the connector, make sure it is clean and then plug it back
together.

That "might" help ... it did in my case since it was dirty, and I wonder
with all the snow you've gotten water in there.

David

---
Internet: david@stat.com                 FAX: +1 (602) 451-6135
WWW: http://www.stat.com/~david

------------------------------

From: Mr Ian Stuart <Ian.Stuart@ed.ac.uk>
Date:          Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:01:53 +0000
Subject:       SLROC events 1996

If anyones planning a trip to Sunny Scotland - here's a copy of the 
provisional events dates:

(also avaliable via http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/SLROC/

Contact me for a description of me & Lucas......
---------------------------------------------------------------------
SLROC Events for 1996

Here is the events list for 1996. All dates are provisional, please check the hot line for forthcoming events.

For details of the sites and times, phone the hot line on: 
0141 632 2770

January
 Sunday 14th           Green Road Run         ?? Arrocher, Strathclyde Region ??
 Sunday 28th           CCV Trial                         Bathgate, Lothian Region

February
 Saturday 17th       Annual General Meeting   Hotel Cladhan, Falkirk, Fife Region

March
 Sunday 10th          RTV Trial                      To Be Announced
 Sunday 31st           Comp Safari                      To Be Announced

April
 Sunday 14th           CCV Trial                    To Be Announced

May
 Sunday 12th           CCV Trial                     To Be Announced
 Sunday 19th           Show                             St. Boswells
 Sunday 26th           Commercial Vehicle Show    Alford

 Saturday 25th to Monday 27th   UK National Rally     England

June
 Sunday 2nd            Show                       Mellerstain
 Saturday 8th           RTV Trial              To Be Announced
 Sunday 9th             Comp Safari           To Be Announced
 Friday 21st             Local's Dance        Brig O'Turk, Central Region
 Saturday 22nd       Green Road Run       Callander, Central Region
 Sunday 23rd         CCV Trial                 Callander, Central Region

July
 Sunday 7th           Fintry Fun Day              Fintry
 Saturday 20th & Sunday 21st     Dalmeny Vehicle Show   Dalmeny House, Edinburgh, Lothian Region
 Sunday 28th          CCV Trial                 To Be Announced

August
 Sunday 11th            CCV Trial                     To Be Announced
 Saturday 24th          RTV Trial(non-championship)    To Be Announced
 Sunday 25th           Enduro (Comp Safari variation)    To Be Announced

September
 Saturday 7th            Comp Safari                   To Be Announced
 Sunday 8th             RTV Trial                        To Be Announced
 Saturday 21st          CCV Trial & Dinner Dance     Callander, Central Region
 Sunday 22nd          Treasure Hunt                    Callander, Central Region

October
 Sunday 6th           CCV Trial                     To Be Announced
 Sunday 27th          Comp Safari                 To Be Announced

November
 Sunday 10th          RTV Trial                   To Be Announced

December
 Sunday 1st            CCV Trial                    To Be Announced
 Thursday 26th     Boxing Day Bash       To Be Announced (usually near Edinburgh)

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
 <http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/> or <http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/>

Quote of 1995: "The archididascalus is to be rusticated and will
                cease to be an abecedarian on the 1st of April"

------------------------------

From: Franz.Parzefall@lrz.tu-muenchen.de
Subject: Polybushes DIY ?
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:14:48 +0100 (MET)

Hi Rovers!
When I read the thread about polybushes it came to my mind if one
could make such things yourself.
Any experiances out there?
Has anybody got the measures for my 1989 110 ?

Yours,
Franz
-- 
Franz Parzefall			 tbr1102@hpmail.lrz-muenchen.de
       _______
      [____|\_\==
      [_-__|__|_-]           exmil. 110 2.5D
 ___.._(0)..._.(0)__.._
                                  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 09:05:53 -0600
From: William Owen <ib011ca@smtpaoc.tsc.state.tn.us>
Subject:  Discovery-Stuck in the Snow -Reply

The problem is that you have open diffs on both axles.  This means that if
one wheel looses traction and spins, it gets all the power on that axle.  Its
designed this way so the vehicle can turn properly.  The best solution is
to avoid this situation.

Some trucks come with limited slip rear diffs to lock up once there is
slippage, but some people feel these are not as dependable and may
break easier than open diffs.  Serious off roaders often put on locking
diffs, but this can make driving on the road difficult.  ARB Air Lockers can
lock the axle with the push of a button, but are expensive.  The RR has
traction control which applies the break on the wheel which is slipping in
order to get traction to the other side.

One suggestion is to apply the break just enough to stop the slippage and
get you moving again.

You have a great vehicle.  Take it from a Jeep owner.  You might also
look into one of the driving classes or rallys offered by LR or others to
learn more about using your Disco.

Good Luck, 
    William, I spent my snowy weekend looking for explorers to pull out of
the ditch, Owen

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:37:18 GMT -0600
Subject: colorado event

Awhile back someone posted tentative info about a LR gathering in 
Colorado this summer. When and where is it? I didn't save what was 
posted. I'd like to try to make this year.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:37:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregory Brown <brow7767@mstr.hgc.edu>
Subject: Visit to England

Hi all.  I will be making a business trip to Worthing either this friday 
the 12th or monday the 15th.  It is quite possible I could be in England 
for the weekend.  Please contact me if someone lives in that area or if 
there are some good parts stores to dream in.  You can reply to this 
address or my work which is gbrown@meriden.walbro.com

Cheers,

Greg
'70 Series IIA in Connecticut w/ Chains!

------------------------------

From: crash@merl.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:40:32 -0500
Subject: driveline noise, cold startups

It's also possible (not necessarily true, just possible) that you've
misphased the driveline.

Driveline "phase" has to do with the relative angles of the U-joints along
a drive shaft.  

As a previous poster noted, a U-joint does NOT have constant torque 
or velocity- it varies along a sine curve with the rotation of the 
driveshaft.  Thus, a U-jointed driveshaft *wants* to vibrate.

However, it's possible to _cancel out_ this sinusoidal variation by 
having two U-joints working at exactly inverse angles.  

More specifically, the crossbar axes of a properly phased U-joint
shaft (like your LR's front driveshaft) are at right angles at 
each end.  

Most specifically, if the crossbar of the U-joint segment that's 
bolted to the front shaft of the transfer case is held exactly vertical, 
then the driveline will be properly phased IF and ONLY IF the crossbar
of the U-joint at the input shaft to the front diff is also exactly
vertical.

My hunch is that when you took the front bits apart, you took 
the front prop shaft apart at the splines too- to clean it up, inspect it,
and put a nice new coating of grease on it, right?

Well, when you put it back together, you *must* make sure that the bars
on the ends are exactly aligned.  The cross-bars on both ends of the
splined prop shaft must be parallel (not at right angles, which some
folks mistake and gives the worst possible vibration, but parallel).

[I know this is hard to describe - I even tried ascii graphics but
couldn't draw it either...]

Note that CV joints, unlike U-joints, don't have this problem.  CV
stands for "Constant Velocity" and don't exhibit this sinusoidal 
variation of torque and angular velocity.

If you want an interesting model, there are Lego Technic sets with 
U-joints, and some of *them* even show proper driveline phasing examples. 
I wish I could scan 'em in...

-----

How to get easy starts even in subzero weather in two words:

	Synthetic Oil!

The only thing that starts out "stiff" in the morning in my Disco
is the power steering, 'cause that's the only thing still with
dinosaur blood in it.  Synthetics everywhere else!

	-Bill (94 Disco, in slush-encrusted white, in Massachusetts)

------------------------------

From: Mark.Kraieski@mailport.delta-air.com
Date: 8 Jan 96 11:06:49 -0500
Subject: Disco Fuel Door Won't Unlock

While heading out to the mountains yesterday to play in the ice and snow, I 
stopped to fill up and could not get the key all the way in the lock of the 
fuel filler door ('96 Disco). I suspect some moisture had frozen in the 
lock, even though the vehicle was in my garage over night. Anyway, I was 
determined to go off-roading and peered through the crack on the left side 
of the door to see how things work. Hmm. If I just raised the left side of 
the door a bit the latch would slide off the catch. Hmmm. I placed 2 fingers 
under the bottom left side of the filler door and lifted gently while 
slightly pulling outward. With very little effort the filler door opened 
right up. In fact, I am able to easily open and close the filler door 
without ever unlocking it.

Good news is I got to go off-roading. Bad news is these Disco's really only 
have "psychological" fuel door locks and if someone really wants in your 
tank it takes no effort at all. Check your Disco's and tell me if this works 
for you!

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 11:57:07 EST
From: SWKW53A@prodigy.com (MR JAMES F MCHUGH)
Subject: Plastic Keys

There is no metal under the plastic. The dealer also told me you
cannot get a key without the plastic. 

Jim McHugh
'95 Discover

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 11:56:12 EST
From: SWKW53A@prodigy.com (MR JAMES F MCHUGH)
Subject: Differentials

TeriAnn: 

     Thanks for your explanation of differential basics. It was the
clearest and most succinct I've seen. Your explanation raised
another question, though: Are there any disadvantages to limited-
slip differentials? If not, why aren't they a standard feature of
"full-time" 4WD systems. As I understand it, when the center
differential is unlocked on my '95 Discovery, loss of traction on
one wheel has the potential to drain power from the other three.
That potential, in turn, would seem to take away some of the
advantages of a "full-time" system when driving on the road in
areas where one might encounter, say, patchy ice or mixed snow and
dry pavement. This, too, is a serious question. Thanks in advance. 

Jim McHugh
'95 Discovery

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:12:11 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Grafton's Gallops 11

For those interested,I have received further communications from one
A.Grafton,esq,upon his travels.
This consists of an Aerogram from Mombasa,dated 22/12/95,in which he
states that the two 109's are on their way to them from Eilat,in Israel,
in boxes,onna boat.This misses out Egypt,Sudan,Ethiopia,in the process.
as he says,that's about half of Africa!
Turns out that apparently you cant take "foreign" diesels into the Sinai
region of Egypt.So they had to be shipped round.Although they *were*
considering replacing the diesel heads with petrol just to get them in
and then replaing the petrol heads once inside....academics..jeez!
Apparently thr Seuz/Prt Sudan ferry is terminally busted,so even if you
*do* get in,you cant get out except in a container!
Also,4X4 vehicles are forbidden in the Sinai,too,and the only way round
*that* one is to remove the front propshaft,and the 4WD lever *and* the
low box lever.
He says the whole party is in good spirits(judging by the cohesivesness
of the missive,*very* good spirits,and plenty of it!
He asks the collective wisdom about the possibility(or feasibiltiy) of the
cyl head change.Apparently they have done the maths and decided it would
just have
worked,albeit badly,but enough for them to have got out of sight of the
border post,and changed back again.Seems like a lot of trouble to me.I
reckon the
hire of a donkey or two to *pull* the bloody things would have been cheaper.
I'll keep you informed as I hear more.
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:18:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Mike at ECR & the dead

In a message dated 96-01-08 02:46:57 EST, you write:

>Anybody know how to break a dock-workers' strike??
>Chris

Tell 'em they'll all be driving rovers with lucas inside if they don't go
back to work...

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:18:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Soft vs. Hard tops

In a message dated 96-01-08 02:56:25 EST, you write:

>So, all told, if for the most part you can keep the top from freezing
>/solid/ in the cold, and from baking from full sun whenever possible you
>should be in good shape for quite a while.
>Chris

Thanks Chris, your comments are a helpful addition to my "database" on this
complex  issue, sometimes I feel it is over my head.   (sorry...)

John N9EJC
94 D90, Wisconsin 

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:41:15 -0500
Subject: Re: 4.0 Stuck in the snow

In a message dated 96-01-08 09:18:13 EST, you write:

>Sorry to all of you that have the cold without the snow (that stinks!) and
>BTW I heard the weather people are calling for another "significant snow
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>fall" on friday!
>I'll be shoveling for the rest of the week (or month)

Though I like to have fun requesting snow here, I don't mean to make light of
the East Coast's burial and the concomitant  life threatening consequences
with so much snow that even  Land Rovers can't make it through.  
 
maybe 2 feet with more coming  is a little excessive. I don't own a TV so I
never get to see pictures of these kinds of things.

John.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:25:49 GMT
From: Harrington Andrew Richard (eb2_95) <harrinar@ee.port.ac.uk>
Subject: Brake problems.

Dear Team,

	New member here, Andy's the name, Off Roading's the game, well trying.

	I have a few problems after a recent off roading experience at 
Salsbury,
	After returning home in my Trusty and well loved Series IIA (1969)
 88in with the odd hole and dents, cheers Steve, I have found a substantial
 loss of presure in my brakeing system. I have the old combined unit of
 clutch and brake unit.
	Since the problem first came about I have changed 50% of the brake
 pipes, two master cylinders, new shoes, new slave cylinder and a large
 bleed through operation, but I still cannot find the problem,
 Could it be my resivour?
	After the bleeding the presure returns for about two days and then
I am back to square one. And there is no fluid leak.

		Pleas help, I am running out of ideas.

	I also do not want to spend any more money as I am a poor student.

		Cheers,    Andy Harrington.

	

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:04:33 -0600
From: scoghill@starnetinc.com (Skip Coghill)
Subject: Cement On Paint Finish

Hi All,

A couple months ago I had the misfortune of apparently driving behind a
cement truck in the Chicago area.  I find now I have some cement droppings
(10-12) on my beige finish in various spots.  Some measure approximately
.25" in diameter and peak up .125".

Stupidly I have left these on while searching for the proper method of
removal.  Now the concrete has cured and I am still in search of a proper
chemical to use and not ruin my finish.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Skip Coghill
'95 Discovery

------------------------------

From: JEPurnell@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:11:16 -0500
Subject: D90 Seats

ANyone have problems with their seats making noise or falling apart?  My
passenger seatback  has a squeak that lubricant hasn't fixed, and then
recently, a long thin rod fell out of the back of it.  It is the kind of
squeak that could easily drive a human being insane, that kind.  I am hoping
that Mr. LR Dealer will see fit to replace it completely.  

To be fair, I think the problem started after I gave my 325 lb. Mandolin
player in our band a ride to a bluegrass festival.  Though the suspension
didn't complain, apparently the seat did.  (we did take first place, however,
so it was worth it...)

John. N9EJC
94D90, Wisconsin.

------------------------------

From: PurnellJE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:12:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Plastic Keys

In a message dated 96-01-08 12:24:25 EST, you write:

>There is no metal under the plastic. The dealer also told me you
>cannot get a key without the plastic. 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>Jim McHugh
>'95 Discover
While still in LA, I had a friend at a key shop look for some blanks that he
could make me duplicates for my Defender without the plastic end.  The door
key, and the center console lock key  were not a problem to find, so he made
me a set.    The ignition key was harder, but he finally found a Ferrari key
blank that would work.  He also thought it works on RR.  I can only assume
Disco too.  Well, he ordered a case of 'em, couldn't get just one, but I left
Cal before they came in.  So you can do it, it just takes a dedicated
locksmith to search for the correct blank.  

John N9EJC
94 D90, Wisconsin

------------------------------

From: Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmth.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Can you afford to off-road a Raneg Rover ?
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 16:59:36 GMT

On 7 Jan 1996, AMEDEO (Denver, CO) wrote:

> I don't say RR's are not taken off-road but give me a break; only an 
> idiot would take that 60k car in the type of terrain that would
> require skid plates on top of everything else.

I see your point, but isn't this a great shame ? The original
intention of the Rangie was that you _could_ off-road it. 

IMHO, the old Range Rover is still available - they just call it the
Disco these days. The thing with the Rangie badges on is some horrible
Beemer with a lift kit.

--
Andy Dingley                                dingbat@codesmth.demon.co.uk

The Internet has given us all mountains of information at our fingertips.
...and all most people want to do is pick their noses with them.

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:52:45 GMT -0600
Subject: Re: Brake problems.

Andy Harrington asks
> Dear Team,
Snip
 		Pleas help, I am running out of ideas.
 
 	I also do not want to spend any more money as I am a poor student.
 
 		Cheers,    .
> Dear Team,

Well Andy, you may have to more spend money, but perhaps you can control 
the amount by doing some tests first. You should (when the pedal is 
low) clamp off all your flex lines and test the pedal. If it's hard 
you know it isn't the MC or the line leading to the flexline.
Remove the clamps one at a time and retest to locate where the problem is.

For clamps I use small needle nose Vice-Grips with the teeth ground 
off ( I have a set of three just for this purpose).

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:54:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Keys (RR content)

On Mon, 8 Jan 1996 PurnellJE@aol.com wrote:

> While still in LA, I had a friend at a key shop look for some blanks that he
> could make me duplicates for my Defender without the plastic end.  The door
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
> Cal before they came in.  So you can do it, it just takes a dedicated
> locksmith to search for the correct blank.  

When I went to the local hardware store looking for duplicate keys for my
88 RR.  They drew a blank on Rover blanks, of course, but the guy cutting
the keys muttered that it looked kind of like a Nissan key.  Sure enuf, he
had to cut the shank back a bit, but it works just fine.  The blank is
made by Ilco, and is numbered X123  DA25.  I have no idea if the blanks
have been changed in subsequent years, so YMMV. 

Walt
              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
              * Walter C. Swain         | wcswain@dcn.davis.ca.us       *
              * Davis Community Network | 1988 Range Rover              * 
              * Davis, California       | 1967 109 Series IIA Safari SW *
              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

------------------------------

From: debrown@srp.gov
Date: 08 Jan 96 12:05:11 MST
Subject: Weather Forecast for Jan. 8-12, 1996

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
For those of you that live in the "snow belt", here's the weather forecast for
Phoenix Arizona.... Just remember to send us your weather forecast in the
summer, when our temp gets to 120 degrees plus!

=======================================================================
          TODAY  TUE    WED    THU    FRI
Min/Max:
     SRP  /79   48/76  48/74  46/78  48/79
     NWS  /77   48/76  48/76
(record
   maxes:  79   57 84  58 84  58 83  56 79)

TODAY's MIN: 47  (preliminary report)
YESTERDAY'S MAX: 78, MIN: 44, Avg. Dew Pt.: 25, RAIN: 0 (0000-2400)
            (record maxMAX for yesterday: 79 set in 1948)
1984-93 Normals: 45/66 (adjusted for ASOS: 42/65)

For the Valley...

TODAY: Clear skies. Morning breezes. Dew pts: near 20.

Tonight-TUE: Increasing high clouds. Light breezes. Dew pts: 20s.

WED-THU: Some high clouds. Windy (15-25 mph, higher gusts). Dew pts: 20s.

FRI: Clear skies. Breezy. Dew pts: 20s.

*   *   *   *   *

Warm high pressure aloft is giving near-record daytime warmth to the Valley.
A weak disturbance WED will bring gusty winds and a slight cooling. But
the high rebuilds at week's end for more near-record highs FRI-SUN.

If you miss winter, airlines might have some cheap flights to the East
Coast today. Great x-country skiing on the Mall in D.C.!!!

=============================================================
So what's this got to do with 4-wheeling? Uh... let's see... More along the
ever popular "mine's better than yours" thread. Hey, with our summers the
way they are, this is the only time of year we can gloat!

Dave (warm, no frozen locks, almost ready to turn on the A/C, and loving it)
Brown.

#=======#          ________           We make a living by what we get,
|__|__|__\___     /__/__|__\___        we make a life by what we give.
| _|  |   |_ |}   \_/-\_|__/-\_|}
"(_)""""""(_)"      (_)    (_)                       Winston Churchill

------------------------------

From: Ross Leidy <ross@secant.com>
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 08:47:14 0500
Subject: D90 Rusted-out rear lamps

On 01/07/96 at 07:42 PM, jpappa01@interserv.com penned:
 >1) Have had a run of bad tail lamp socket assys on D90 SWs delivered
 >recently.  They allow water ingress, pull lotsa current, and the
 >coating burns off of the  contacts and they fail very quickly and
 >look as though they are a hundred  years old! They really are not
 >very good units. Evey thirty year old Lucas  assemblies are far
 >superior. Replacing them is only temporary fix. The Rover  hardcore
 >will come up with a solution as always. For now, I recommend dousing 
 >the internals with dielectric grease and sealing everything once
 >reconnected  with RTV or wrap w/inner tube and secure w/tie wraps.
 >Crude but better than  this fire drill!
[snip]

I've got an appointment with the dealer to take care of this same problem on my three-month-old 95 D90.  Last week I noticed that one of my rear parking lights was out.  Brake light too.  I removed the tail lamp assembly and to my surprise, there was water sloshing about inside.  When I removed the bulb base, I found that it was totally rusted away.  After inspecting the remaining rear lenses, I found at least 2 others that contained water.  I didn't disassemble them for fear of losing all rear lights.

Not fully illuminated,

Ross
_____________________________________
Ross Leidy  (ross@secant.com)
Secant Technologies, Inc.
95 NAS D90

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jan 96 14:07:51 EST
From: "John P. Casteel" <70472.557@compuserve.com>
Subject: Considering SIIa

Hello all,

I have another wild hair.  I am considering selling my '90 RR and buying a
Series IIa.  (I love my RR so this is a tough decision.  I would especially miss
the heating and air conditioning.) To help in the decision process  I would like
some help from you chaps, my Rover friends.
If (When) I make this decision I will most likely get an 88 and it must have
both a hard and soft top and a wheel on the bonnet.  
 1.  What is the top speed and how fast can I expect to push a IIa for extended
periods?  I am talking about an 8 hour trip.
 2. How much will an overdrive increase the top speed?  
 3. What is the towing capacity?
 4. I prefer to do my own restoration but in this case I will probably buy a
fully restored or near fully restored vehicle.  What should I expect to pay?
 5. What is the best year (and why?)?
 6. From all accounts the 2.25 petrol engine is superb.  Should I consider a
diesel? 

The earliest I would act on this decision is three months so I am only
familiarizing myself with the market.  However, if any of you in the South East
have an interesting offering I'd like to hear about it.  Also, are there any
"Rover Car Lots" in the South East?  I seem to remember a thread about a dealer,
of Series vehicles, somewhere in the Carolinas.

Cheers and Warm Regards,
John Casteel      

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:20:08 GMT -0600
Subject: Re: 4.0 Stuck in the snow

John Purnell writes
snip
> with so much snow that even  Land Rovers can't make it through.  

Back around '77 (give or take a couple of years) the once in ten year 
big strom occured where I was living, which just happened to be where 
the current storm hit on the US east coast. I was living in VA near Harpers 
Ferry, WV and we had between 25 & 30" (plus drifts)

My dad had to catch a plane to Denver for his mom's funeral (don't 
ask me why we thought Dulles would be open) so I towed our Dodge 
Aspen the mile to the road with my '62 swb regular. It *did* take 
about 1 1/2 hours and I had chains on all four, but my LR made it 
through. I'm sure you're asking why I towed the Dodge instead of 
taking the LR. Well, it wasn't registered. But, as it turns out, that 
was no reason. In the 30 mile or so trip to the airport we saw maybe 
three other vehicles, none of them police.

Land Rovers will make it through amazing depths. In Vt one year I had 
snow rolling back over the bonnet so that I only had about a 2" slit 
at the top of the windscreen to peer through, and made it up a better 
than 50% hill to my house.

I love blizzards. When I was growing up, for fun my dad and 
I used to go about in our IHC Travelall during snow storms and pull 
people out of their stuck situations. I was always supprised when 
people would flatly refuse, I guess they thought we were going to 
charge them.

It's so flat where I live now though, it seems no-one ever gets stuck. :-(

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

From: ChrisF6724@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:39:40 -0500
Subject: index lro-digest

index lro-digest

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:02:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Ross Leidy <ross@secant.com>
Subject: D90 Seats

 >ANyone have problems with their seats making noise or falling apart?  My
 >passenger seatback  has a squeak that lubricant hasn't fixed, and then
 >recently, a long thin rod fell out of the back of it.  It is the kind of
 >squeak that could easily drive a human being insane, that kind.  I am hoping
 >that Mr. LR Dealer will see fit to replace it completely.  
[snip]
 >John. N9EJC
 >94D90, Wisconsin.

I had a horribly irritating sqeak in the driver's seat.  It was caused by
the spring that moves the seat-back foward when you release the lever.  The
part of the spring (for lack of a better term) that sits in the horizontal
metal tube at the pivot point was rubbing against the inside of the tube.  A
bit of lube fixed it up.

- Ross
______________________________
Ross Leidy    ross@secant.com
Secant Technologies
95 NAS D90

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:27:44 +0100
From: lopezba@atnet.at
Subject: Last of heaters for this winter 

Dear, cold cis-Atlantic sufferers,
no more on heaters from over there I=B4m afraid.  But to complete the=
 picture,
here is a little story I shamelessly stole from the Land Rover Series One
Newsletter, who shamelessly stole it from Southern News Update, who
shamelessly stole it from Classic Motor & Autojumble, who probably
shamelessly stole it from somebody else:

Dear Klaxton,
Is there any recognised standard for measuring the output of a heater? I ask=

this because I have fitted an optional heater kit to my (insert name of your=

Favourite Car here), and I am not very impressed by the result.  In fact it=

is difficult to tell whether or not the thing is working at all, yet I am
sure that all the water pipes are connected up properly and I can hear the=

fan running.
P. Lea, Thornton Cleveley

Dear Mr. Lea,
If you examine the maker=B4s plate on the side of your heater you should=
 find
an official rating figure. This will consist of a number (probably 2 in the=

case of Your Favourite Car heater) followed by the letters MB.  MB was used=

to measure the output in the same way that HP (for Horse Power) measures the=

engine output.  MB actually stands for Mouse Breath, so the output of a 2MB=

heater ought to be the equivalent of two mice breathing hard on your knees.=

I trust this explains things for you.

Well, haven=B4t checked on my circular heater, although it is Bosch and=
 should
be working with German efficiency.  Since my spare parts still have not
arrived (damn some suppliers!), the Green Monster stays in the yard. In the=

meantime, let us all hope for some global warming!

Peter Hirsch
SI 107in S/W

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jan 96 15:51:16 EST
From: "Stefan R. Jacob" <100043.2400@compuserve.com>
Subject: Sightings in the news

...just saw a report on german TV about the US East Coast snow
situation; folks on skis gliding past the White House, then a take
down some deserted boulevard, parked cars invisible under snow
drifts, falling snow almost blocking out visibility... Then from
the off behind the cameraman a car comes into the picture, powering
ahead and away into the blizzard: Range Rover! Camera sweeps to the left:
Out of a side street, pushing a wall of snow in front of him, another
Range Rover turns into the boulevard and passes in front of the camera.
Next take: A different street, even more snow, visibility near zero;
a dark silhouette begins to emerge from ahead, contours slowly become
clearer... you guessed it, another RR ! (Talk about free advertisement)
Was this coincidence, or is Washington that full of Range Rovers? Of course
you'd notice them more when nothing else is on the road :-)
Only backdraw was the Jeep Cherokee w/snowplough clearing the President's
driveway...

Stefan
<Stefan R. Jacob, 100043.2400@CompuServe.com>

------------------------------

From: rpeng@cadev6.intel.com
Subject: Discovery Ground Clearance
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 13:39:14 PST

One thing that strikes me about the Discovery is that it
rides on rather small tires. The ground clearance doesn't
seem to be better than most mini-vans. LRNA likes to promote
the Discovery as a serious offroader; how does it get by? 
If you take a look at a typical U.S. 4WD magazine, almost
every truck featured has a lift and large tires.

Due to limited wheelwell space, I don't think it would be easy to fit
larger tires on a Discovery, nor do I know of any lift kits made
for this vehicle. Would anyone care to comment regarding this issue?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Peng                                     (408)765-7863
Intel Corporation
Design Technology, Physical CAD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:49:50 -0800
From: matts@cacilj.caciasl.com (Matt Snyder)
Subject: Range Rovers off road

TeriAnn, visit http://www.pubsvc.dsr.com/LandRover/adventures.html and you 
will see two Range Rovers in fairly extreme offroad conditions.  I 
personally have never seen a Series IIa offroad, but I don't continually 
remind the mail group of the fact.

-Matt

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:52:15 -0800 (PST)
From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us>
Subject: Re: Keys (RR content) (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 13:26:54 -0600
From: John B. Friedman <johannes@scribes.english.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Keys (RR content)

It is XJ( or maybe i)70 an Ilco blank and works perfectly. Could you  
post this for people. It takes no strange cutting with this blank.  
John Friedman

--------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 08 Jan 96 11:50:54 EST
From: Mark Ritter <70472.1130@compuserve.com>
Subject: Snow, Ice and Disco ABS

Some gut named Amadeo just wrote:
<ABS   the Discovery ABS is passive, not active like in the Range Rover>
<so it's not that great. The RR ABS is in my opinion much better although>
<I don't mind my 87 not having any. Better none than mediocre.>
I don't know who this guy is but he doesn't know what the hell he is talking
about. Both the Disco and the RR have the same 4 channel ABS systems. Mine
worked great on ice and snow last night here in Atlanta. What the Disco doesn't
have is traction control. This system uses part of the ABS (rear wheels only) to
apply the brakes to either rear wheel should it start to spin.This will cause
the torque to be applied to the wheel with greater traction. To call the Disco's
system inferior is incorrect as its ABS is the equal of the RR's, it just
doesn't have the traction control. but then it doesn't cost $55,000 either!

							Mark Ritter
							94 Disco 
							Shopping for a 
							95 County RR to
							replace my wife's
							Lexu<
							

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:57:13 -0500 (EST)
From: m8f@ornl.gov (M Scott Fugate)
Subject: RR Bush Replacement, Dealers

Mark Talbot enquires about Polybushes for an 88 RR...

I have made this mod to my '89.  I did it all (front and back) by myself one
tiring Saturday last summer.  Took me 8 or 9 hours, but I'm not exactly an
Indy pit crew member, by any stretch.  The hardest part was getting the old
bushes out.  Used the time-tested propane torch removal system known and
loved by Series Owners.  Fitting the Polybushes themselves is a piece of
cake.  You definitely DON'T need the "special" tool.  I believe I used a
piece of threaded rod and nuts to install a couple of bushes ( I Don't
remember which ones), but most went in using hand pressure or a couple of
taps with the end of my half inch drive power handle.  Soap might make even
that unnecessary.  One caveat - the radius arm nuts call for a torque
setting of 140 ft/lbs or so (No, I don't know how many newtons that is.)  I
have the standard Sears Craftsman model torque wrench which only goes up to
120 or so, and have had a hard time getting things tight enough.  I still
get a disconcerting "bump" from the right front occasionally when I round a
corner.  This only happens when it raining, however.  Very strange.  Anyway
- the jobs not too bad, especially if its just the front you're doing.

Re the recent thread on dealers and enthusiasts - FWIW, I have dealt with
two "Land Rover Centers" since I've owned the RR.  The one in Atlanta,
(well, Alpharetta-Roswell) GA was very discourteous to my wife when she
delivered the vehicle for service and relayed my instructions that I wanted
to speak to the Service Manager before they proceeded with any repairs.  The
guy was a bit incredulous that a Range Rover Owner would actually diagnose
and repair his own vehicle, or might actually care about what work was going
to be done.  I spoke with the Service Manager later, and he treated me a bit
better, but it was obvious to me that this outfit is after the "image"
market and doesn't give a damn for enthusiasts.  Their building is very
nice, however.  The Center in Greenville, SC, on the other hand, is owned by
a real car enthusiast, and it shows.  Before they got their full delivery of
LRs/RRs, they had his restored Lotus in the showroom.  The few times I've
been in there, they've even had a Series vehicle or two on the lot, albeit
for sale at ridiculous prices.  The owner reputedly has bought a barn full
of Series Is out of Canada - all need work though, I hear.   I was in town
right before Christmas, and they brought in their mechanic to do the recall
work on my gas tank on a Saturday.  Very impressive.  Prominently displayed
on the end of the front row of their lot was a 1951 88 station wagon!
Belongs to the owner - originally a Texas vehicle -100% original condition -
perfect frame - screaming out for restoration.  The sales guy obviously
didn't know anything about Series Vehicles, but invited me to check out the
'51 and  a '70 IIa they had on the lot when I told him I had done a
restoration.  This will be my dealer from now on.  

Scott Fugate
1970 IIa 88 - Beluga light green
1989 RR - Beluga dark green

------------------------------

From: Mark.Kraieski@mailport.delta-air.com
Date: 8 Jan 96 17:03:01 -0500
Subject: RFI: Discovery Front Hitch Receivers

I recall a few list readers have installed front hitch receivers to permit 
temporary winch mounting. I am planning on purchasing such a setup in the 
next couple of weeks and would appreciate comments from these readers as to 
who manufactured the receiver, how difficult it was to mount, if there are 
any drawbacks to the installation (such as reduced ground clearance or 
approach angle when winch is NOT attached). Also, which of the receiver 
mounted winches did you purchase and how has it worked out?

Reply via email and I will summarize.

Thanks!

Mark

------------------------------

Subject: Re: looking for 109 
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 14:08:20 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

Dave Bobeck wrote:
  
]      4. Dixon K.- The answer to the question raised in our conversation 
]      today is that the Serial # does begin with 259, as does the Serial # 
]      on another local Series 3 that is still owned by its original owner. 

]      He also thinks 
]      it's unlikely that many CKD's were shipped here new. So what gives? 
]      Could it be (gasp) that there is incorrect info on the FAQ? Possibly 
]      just something overlooked, I would imagine, an honest mistake, right? 

	Damn, I could swear that I added that to the FAQ months ago.  The
US version of the Series III 88" had it's own Serial number sequence that
started with 259.  Officially the 259 designates the Federal version SIII
88" Deluxe Hardtop.  (It wasn't a Station Wagon because it didn't have the
Alpine windows or some such minor details).

        What is interesting is that the 200 series (of serial numbers) and 300 
series Land Rovers are SIIA.  900 series Land Rovers are SIIIs, excepting the 
US SIII.  SIIA NADA 6 cyl were 5224 series and siesl SIII lightweights ere
895 series.   

	The error will be fixed in a few moments.

Ben, who's feeling a little red about this because my Rover is 25900409A

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:42:41 -0500
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Disco questions

Still considering a Disco purchase...just paid the Christmas bills and it 
*might* be possible :-)  Anyway, I need the use of four wheel drive for a 
ski trip in the near future, and due to the fact that my 88 is snowed in 
with the rear frame still cut off, it's out of the question.  (Welding in 
deep snow is a real bitch...)  Is there still a general caveat that new 
vehicles shouldn't be driven on a long road trip right out of the gate?  A 
while back, there was a thread about getting rings, camshafts, etc to wear 
in gradually - like not driving on the interstate at a constant speed for a 
prolonged time.  I broke my 88 in gradually 23 years ago.  How about the 
Disco?  Also, how do you fit a block heater to a 4.0 V-8?  Cheers
      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |       Rover Owners' Association of Virginia         |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 16:45:10 -0600
From: "John B. Friedman" <johannes@scribes.english.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Disco ABS light and Mirror 

My ABS light has been going on for the last month. First it began on  
its own after I had been driving for a while. It wuold go out when I  
restarted car and then come on maybe 500 miles or maybe 20 miles. Now  
it is on all the time no matter what. Yet the battery has never been  
diosconnected and brakes are fine. Any thoughts?
	My driver side mirror developed a crack-giving odd prism or  
bi-focal effect--in our very cold weather. Anyone have experience  
with replacing the glass only. The housing and adjuster seem fine. 

	Thanks, John Friedman

------------------------------

From: Simon Barclay <sbar@jna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Parts commonality
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 09:50:00 EST

Hi all

Just thought you might like to know that I counted 72 Land Rover vehicles on 
my way to work this morning.  This was between 06.45Hrs and about 07.00Hrs 
(before the rush hour) and only over a distance of about nine or ten miles. 
 (From the Eastern suburbs of Sydney through the harbour tunnel to the 
Northern suburbs.)  Most of these were Disco's, Range Rovers (about 8 new 
ones) a S2A (ex Army) and a couple of '85ish 110's and a newer Defender tray 
back.

There are probably a few I didn't see hidden behind trucks and buses, but 
that gives you an idea of how popular they are in Sydney!  Ten years ago you 
might have seen three or four!!

Simon Barclay
Sydney Australia

------------------------------

From: TWakeman/Apple@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:56:58 -0800
Subject: Re: Differentials

>  Are there any disadvantages to limited-slip differentials?
>  If not, why aren't they a standard feature of "full-time" 4WD 
>  systems.

I have never had one so I do not know about disadvantages.  For one though
they are expensive.  Maybe someone else can address any disadvantages.

> As I understand it, when the center differential is unlocked on 
> my '95 Discovery, loss of traction on one wheel has the potential
>  to drain power from the other three.

I guess I wasn't clear on this.  If one wheel slips you only lost traction to
the other wheel served bythat diff.  A diff only serves the wheels at each
end of the axle housing its installed in.  So you would need no traction at
all on one front wheel and one rear wheel to lose everything.  As long as you
have some traction (resistance) on a spinning wheel, some traction will be
supplied to the other wheel.

TeriAnn

------------------------------

From: "Mugele, Gerry" <Gerry.Mugele@wellsfargo.com>
Subject: 800-FINE-4WD
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 15:07:00 PST

I think they have a rather fundamental problem over at LRNA.  I called the 
LRNA number 800-FINE-4WD to ask if they knew if there were any more D90 SWs 
available.  The nice person on the other end  informed me that they are not 
sold in North America and are only available in Europe, Asia, Australia and 
Africa.  (Didn't mention South America.)   I suggested that she was in error 
and she became somewhat less polite.  She repeated herself and so I said 
that there was a special release of 500 1995s for the NA market.  She 
insisted that I was wrong but that "the D90 Soft Top was available,  what is 
my Zip code?"   "Click!"  I said.   Amazing huh?  Their hotline doesn't even 
know the product line.

Gerry M 72 88
*** Life is a Sexually Transmitted Disease and it is invariably fatal.
### - I do not speak for Wells Fargo - Wells Fargo does not speak for me - 
###

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Range Rovers off road 
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 16:06:42 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <199601082148.QAA04680@butler.uk.stratus.com>you wrote:
  
> TeriAnn, visit http://www.pubsvc.dsr.com/LandRover/adventures.html and you 
> will see two Range Rovers in fairly extreme offroad conditions.   

	And take a look at http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/Benplay.html and
you will see a SIII in action.  (more photos will come later of all makes 
of Rover off road.)

> personally have never seen a Series IIa offroad, but I don't continually 
> remind the mail group of the fact.

	Personally, I've seen hundreds, from Maine to Virginia to Oregon to
Portland.  Almost every D90 that I've seen was off Road (dealer's lots
excepted).  About half of the Discoveries that I've seen were off road. I've
seen few Range Rover Classics off road.   Does this mean that Rangies aren't
good off road vehicles?  No.  I'd say that stock vehicle vs stock vehicle,
I'd take any Land Rover (excepting possible the new Rangie, I don't have
any direct experience with them) over any other off road 4x4.   

	Why I was back east in NJ the running joke in High school (by jeepers)
was that the sole purpose of Rangie Rovers was to get yuppies and upperclass
to the airport when it snowed so that they could get to Florida.  IMO the
market segment that LR sold Rangies to from 1987 to 1992 in the USA was 
interested in a luxury car that happened to be a 4x4.  So I'm not
surprised when I don't see Rangies off-road all that often.  Maybe it's that
Rangie owners in the US don't want to associate with the Riff-raff that
drive Series Rovers.  About 9 months ago a serior Land Rover North America
employee was asked if LRNA wanted to support a mostly Series LR rally.  (2nd
hand information as told to me) The response was that Series owners were 
nothing but rednecks with crudely modified trucks.  If that's the attitude of 
the company, then that would reflect somepart of the attitude of their 
customers. 

	In general, I agree with TerriAnn, Disco and Range Rover owners
don't tend to want to take as many panel bending and frame bashing risks as
the Series and Defender90 owners.  (I've seen a few D110s off-road but not
enough to make an opinion).  That is probalby related to the type of person
that buys each type of vehicle (and there are exceptions to everything).

	And of coarse clouding any discussion is that clubs are formed and
get members based on how people interact.  From what I have gathered the
new Southern California Land Rover club gets people mostly from adverts at
the dealerships.   The mendo_recce group (which is mostly Bay Area based) is
a bunch of internet folks who tend to be DYI mechanics and tinkerers.  Hence
that group tends to be half Series the rest newer vehicles with owners who
tend to have that tinkerer mindset.   Yes there are Rangie's, and some have
a Rangie for everyday and a Series that is used off road, on mendo_recce,
but I haven't seen them off road.  There are a number of Series Rovers in
Los Angeles and San Diego.  Somehow I guess they haven't (yet) heard of your
club.  So any group of Rovers is biased one way or another.

	
Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

From: JEPurnell@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:33:24 -0500
Subject: D90 locking gas cap

I recently left my gas cap at a fillerup station and remembered a post that
David Rosenbaum made a long time ago about a locking gas cap for the
Defenders.  I found the note and called an auto parts store with the Stant
part no., ok, $15.67, not too bad.  Had to get a water pump and a timing belt
for another car and went to a NAPA store  to get it.  Asked about the stant
number, yup, they had the equivalent, NAPA 703-2103, for $9.99.  Sure looks
like a Stant.  I bought a 1995 D90SW with the savings.

John.
ps: thanks David.

------------------------------

From: smitha@candw.lc
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:37:15 -0800
Subject: Re: RR Bush Replacement, 

No, this isn't about snow. Or heaters.
Couldn't help noticing the bushes/wrench items, as I'm about to do an RH 
Polybush exchange, and also getting another Sears torque wrench. I got their 
largest wrench (#44546) last time I passed through Puerto Rico, and it has a 
range of 25 - 250 ft-lbs. The next one down goes to 80. Are you sure yours is 
120? I was disappointed when I first played with mine and noticed that it didn't 
dial up high enough for some of the figures I was reading in the LR workshop 
manual. Then I read the back page of the instruction leaflet for the wrench. 
What I thought was the end of the scale at around 100  ft-lbs was just a 
tightening up as the figures rose. Hey - it was my first digitork. Tomorrow I'll 
be passing through Puerto Rico again, and will take the opportunity to get the 
smallest of the three to be happy about doing heater plugs and valve covers 
properly. 
I hate to say it but it is 29 degrees outside. 
Centigrade. 
However, while most of the network seem to snowed under they do have the Vehicle 
to deal with it, and past the last snow drift is a dealership with parts, a 
hardware store with tools, a service centre with mechanics who use torque 
wrenches, things that can be taken for granted. Sure, the sun is blazing here, 
but this is the vehicular version of Desert Island Disks. It is Desert Island 
Toolkit and Spares Stash. 

For example.  All of the engine oil types available from dealers are listed in 
the Owner's Manual as being appropriate for emergency use, but to be changed as 
soon as the real stuff is available. The F-type automatic transmission fluid 
required for the R380 and other recent gearboxes doesn't exist here. however, 
that didn't matter as it was not possible to buy the appropriate size torqx (?) 
male socket to even open the box. An 8mm hex does the job, but it took a lot of 
my time to find that out. Now I have an 8mm hex on a 1/2 in drive (from NAPA) 
that allows me to torque correctly. 

------------------------------

Date: 8 Jan 1996 15:58:21 -0800
From: "Lowe, David" <lowedj@akm0044.anc.xwh.bp.com>
Subject: Alaska Rovers for Sale

In yesterdays digest there was a note from a Paul Spatzek who was looking =
for a new used Rover preferably a diesel.  Importing one to Alaska can be =
expensive at around $2,500 for shipping from the UK or $1,500 from the =
lower 48 as we call the rest of the US.  A new frame alone from UK is =
$2500 delivered in Alaska.

There are several decent Rovers for sale between Fairbanks, Anchorage, =
and Homer.  A nice dark green military looking IIA, 109 Regular, here in =
Anchorage with new paint, rear cross member, and new camoflauge interior. =
 Looks very military, 6 cyl. engine uses some oil but starts and runs =
good.  It could be converted to desiel if desired cheaper than shipping a =
whole vehicle to Alaska.  Price $2,500.    

Also a 109, SIII, Diesel Safari Wagon in Homer that threw a rod and needs =
a major engine rebuild.  Body and frame OK with some rust around window =
frames.  Could be had for around $1,000 I think.  Its rough but =
restorable with a good frame and basically sound but filthy body and =
interior.

Also a nice low mile 88 SIII in Fairbanks without and engine that could =
be had for $3,300.  

If you are new to Rovers and need to know local sources and fanatics, =
give me a call.  Buy Alaskan!  

Dave Lowe
(907)564-4792 wk
         345-6854 hm

------------------------------

From: Simon Barclay <sbar@jna.com.au>
Subject: RE: 800-FINE-4WD
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 11:48:00 EST

Just for the record the D90 was never sold in Australia either....  the 
import duty and tax made it  very close in price to the 110!!
 ----------
From: LRO-Owner
Subject: 800-FINE-4WD
Date: Monday, 8 January 1996 3:07PM

To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

I think they have a rather fundamental problem over at LRNA.  I called the
LRNA number 800-FINE-4WD to ask if they knew if there were any more D90 SWs
available.  The nice person on the other end  informed me that they are not
sold in North America and are only available in Europe, Asia, Australia and
Africa.  (Didn't mention South America.)   I suggested that she was in error 

and she became somewhat less polite.  She repeated herself and so I said
that there was a special release of 500 1995s for the NA market.  She
insisted that I was wrong but that "the D90 Soft Top was available,  what is 

my Zip code?"   "Click!"  I said.   Amazing huh?  Their hotline doesn't even 

know the product line.

Gerry M 72 88
*** Life is a Sexually Transmitted Disease and it is invariably fatal.
### - I do not speak for Wells Fargo - Wells Fargo does not speak for me -
###

------------------------------

From: ChrisF6724@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:50:42 -0500
Subject: Re: swaps...

Andy,
To be honest with you, I hadn't really considered clearance problems with the
exhaust  manifold.  I'll pass along the info to my mechanic.  However, if I
think I'll be going through axles, I might hold off on the project until I
can afford to replace the front and rear end as well...  If I go this route,
I'll probally strip a IH Scout for its front, rear, brakes, and steering.
 The scout stuff is really strong (Dana30 & Dana 40 I believe), and very
cheap and easily found... This would give me power steering (tilt and
telescoping)  as well as disk brakes up front and drums in the rear.  Not to
mention being able to find aftermarket tires,wheels and several different
choices of lockers.  I will have to make sure the track is close to the
original rover though.  My mechanic had the exact same engine/trans. setup in
a Samurai, and was able to solve the clearance problems. (I'll check and see
if he goes through axles because he left the stock ones in place...)  How
much did it cost you for the RR axles? (I'd prefer to use as much Rover stuff
as financially possible).  I'm sure I'll end up putting alot of trust in my
mechanic (he hasn't converted a Rover before), so any advice is welcome...

Chris Fisher
'73 88 Series 3 "The Blue Fog"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 00:44:20 UT
From: "Mark Talbot" <Land_Rover@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Range Rovers off road 

Ben, 

Range Rovers are GREAT vehicles with exceptional capabilities.  Let's get 
real, if you can afford to bash the wings in every other weekend, or blow out 
a diff and can afford to replace it, then go take them off road. I have 2 
Range Rovers now and to be honest, I have yet to take either seriously 
off-road. 

I do plan on using my 88 RR to go off-road. However, I will be careful that I 
don't go dent every panel, as I have to use it for my daily vehicle, to take 
clients out in it etc.  The fact that panels and parts cost a fortune 
prohibits most from going off-road. 

I will agree, after living in Greenwich CT, for 3 years, that RR's WERE and 
STILL are a status symbol to some. God knows the problems I have had with mine 
and garages, as soon as they see one they think you have $$$$$$. And I don't 

The fact is this, you can get good 2nd hand vehicles for a fraction of the 
cost, both of mine have cost less than $33,000 !!!! Less then the 88 RR was 
new in 1988 !!! I certainly don't have piles of cash to keep repairing them if 
they break, let alone if I aid breaking or bashing them !!

Come on, most people who have RR's do know where they came from heritage wise, 
that's obvious. I English and saw what went on back home, same thing. We 
should leave them to enjoy their luxury 4X4. Pay as your money etc. 

But there is also a huge ownership of 2nd hand vehicles that DO appreciate 
their heritage and capabilities and that is becoming more obvious on this 
list.  

Stop bashing RR owners, and for that matter DISCO owners. They are all Land 
Rovers, that is all we should care about. I remember someone who shall remain 
nameless (Dixon Kenner) having a dig about metal dash Land Rovers and SIII 
plastic dash Land Rovers !!!!

Just as an aside, I have had a SIII, sold to get the RR, I have a 109 in a 
state of repair in the garage and a broken up 71 SIIA at the back of the 
garage. I used the SIII as a means of taking it off-road as the wife wouldn't 
let me bash the RR. 

Hey, I have a friend who will remain nameless, okay I told once already, 
(Steve Bradke) who treats his SIII like it was a museum piece, nothing wrong 
with that, and I respect him for it because he wants to look after it, but he 
did go off-road ONCE,  each to his own.   

Mark

----------
From:  Benjamin Allan Smith
Sent:  Monday, January 08, 1996 7:07 PM
Subject:  Re: Range Rovers off road 

To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

In message <199601082148.QAA04680@butler.uk.stratus.com>you wrote:
  
> TeriAnn, visit http://www.pubsvc.dsr.com/LandRover/adventures.html and you 
> will see two Range Rovers in fairly extreme offroad conditions.   
	And take a look at http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/Benplay.html and
you will see a SIII in action.  (more photos will come later of all makes 
of Rover off road.)

> personally have never seen a Series IIa offroad, but I don't continually 
> remind the mail group of the fact.
	Personally, I've seen hundreds, from Maine to Virginia to Oregon to
Portland.  Almost every D90 that I've seen was off Road (dealer's lots
excepted).  About half of the Discoveries that I've seen were off road. I've
seen few Range Rover Classics off road.   Does this mean that Rangies aren't
good off road vehicles?  No.  I'd say that stock vehicle vs stock vehicle,
I'd take any Land Rover (excepting possible the new Rangie, I don't have
any direct experience with them) over any other off road 4x4.   

	Why I was back east in NJ the running joke in High school (by jeepers)
was that the sole purpose of Rangie Rovers was to get yuppies and upperclass
to the airport when it snowed so that they could get to Florida.  IMO the
market segment that LR sold Rangies to from 1987 to 1992 in the USA was 
interested in a luxury car that happened to be a 4x4.  So I'm not
surprised when I don't see Rangies off-road all that often.  Maybe it's that
Rangie owners in the US don't want to associate with the Riff-raff that
drive Series Rovers.  About 9 months ago a serior Land Rover North America
employee was asked if LRNA wanted to support a mostly Series LR rally.  (2nd
hand information as told to me) The response was that Series owners were 
nothing but rednecks with crudely modified trucks.  If that's the attitude of 
the company, then that would reflect somepart of the attitude of their 
customers. 

	In general, I agree with TerriAnn, Disco and Range Rover owners
don't tend to want to take as many panel bending and frame bashing risks as
the Series and Defender90 owners.  (I've seen a few D110s off-road but not
enough to make an opinion).  That is probalby related to the type of person
that buys each type of vehicle (and there are exceptions to everything).

	And of coarse clouding any discussion is that clubs are formed and
get members based on how people interact.  From what I have gathered the
new Southern California Land Rover club gets people mostly from adverts at
the dealerships.   The mendo_recce group (which is mostly Bay Area based) is
a bunch of internet folks who tend to be DYI mechanics and tinkerers.  Hence
that group tends to be half Series the rest newer vehicles with owners who
tend to have that tinkerer mindset.   Yes there are Rangie's, and some have
a Rangie for everyday and a Series that is used off road, on mendo_recce,
but I haven't seen them off road.  There are a number of Series Rovers in
Los Angeles and San Diego.  Somehow I guess they haven't (yet) heard of your
club.  So any group of Rovers is biased one way or another.

	
Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 
88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

From: slade@teleport.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:09:09 -0800
Subject: D90 Hardtop-Party

A friend of mine here in Portland is having a hardtop party wherein he
cooks dinner for us and we (whomever shows up) helps him install his
hardtop.

I know that there have been many discussions regarding this hardtop and
it's pros/cons, but I don't remember seeing many installation tips.

If there are any things we (I) should know about that would make the
installation better/easier/slicker/quicker I'd love to hear about them.

Hopefully he cooks something good.

Thanks,

Michael

PS  Or should I just stay away?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 01:07:05 UT
From: "Mark Talbot" <Land_Rover@msn.com>
Subject: Axle guards

Anyone used, bought diff / axle guards for a RR or Disco ? If so where did you 
get them. I have looked  at the southdown products, and they seem okay. 

Any ideas ?

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 01:05:05 UT
From: "Mark Talbot" <Land_Rover@msn.com>
Subject: Load space protector

Anyone know where ABP gets their supply of RR load space protectors. It's the 
plastic sheet that fits over the rear cargo area. I'm sure they are cheaper 
back home in the UK. 

Obviously they won't tell me  where they get them from !!!!

Mark 

------------------------------

From: ChrisF6724@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:11:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Engine Swaps?

Thanks for you interest in the leftover parts... 
I would very much like to see them reused instead of melted into scrap.  

The project will hopefully start sometime this spring (I still have to sell
my other car, '92 Honda Prelude, great shape, low miles, low,low price...;-)
)  I will keep your name in my file.  I'll probally have to get rid of most
of the gauges (I'll try and reuse what I can of those) and electric's as well
as other misc. parts like radiator, run off, air filter,...  

The engine is in bad shape.  Right now it runs, but not well.  It's got water
in the oil and I think the rings are shot (hence the occassional  blue smoke,
but it doesn't "rattle" so it might be the valves...).  A tune-up (excluding
tappet adjustment) did not help.  It also drinks oil like it's going out of
style (quart a week) and has low oil pressure. The tranny on the other hand
is workin great except for a slipping clutch.  (I haven't found anyone yet
who will adjust it for a reasonable price)  Anyone know a easy way to adjust
the clutch w/o having to remove the drivers side wing?  The transfer case
also is in good working condition (shifts smooth and doesn't grind at all).  

I'm not sure yet if the preliminary estimate included a "trade-in" allowance,
but I definately mean to find out and will let you know as the parts become
available.

Chris Fisher
'73 88 Series 3 "The Blue Fog"

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Range Rovers off road 
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 17:24:47 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

Mark Talbot wrote:

	Sigh, I knew better than to get embroiled in this...

] Range Rovers are GREAT vehicles with exceptional capabilities.  

	No where was I saying that Rangies weren't good vehicles.  All I was
saying was the pattern of use that I've observed.  That's it.  And I forgot
to add in closing in the last message that any stock 4x4 that survives the 
Camel Trophy is (in my book) one of the best 4x4s built.  So that includes
Range Rover Classics, SIIIs, D90s, D110s, D130s, and Discoveries.  (the
new Range Rover (mk2 <-a designation that I used to keep them separate) and
the "Adventurer" (or what ever it is to be called) have yet so attempt my
litmus test so I don't have an opinion for or against them yet.
 
] I do plan on using my 88 RR to go off-road. However, I will be careful that I
] don't go dent every panel, as I have to use it for my daily vehicle, to take 
] clients out in it etc.  The fact that panels and parts cost a fortune 
] prohibits most from going off-road. 

	And that might be the reason that I and others have observered fewer
Rangies off road than any other type of Land Rover.  When I off-road I don't
try and dent panels.  I was referring to trails on which panel bashing was a
risk, not a certainty.  I find those trails to be more challenging and 
hence more interesting.  For others, that risk is too high.  That was all 
that I was saying, that's all.  And my Rover is my daily drive.  It is my
only vehicle.  If I break it, I walk to work until I get parts.  

] Come on, most people who have RR's do know where they came from heritage wise
] that's obvious. 

	For owners that bought new since the D110 came to America I would
have to agree with you.  Before then, they didn't even know what a "Land Rover"
was.

] But there is also a huge ownership of 2nd hand vehicles that DO appreciate 
] their heritage and capabilities and that is becoming more obvious on this 
] list.  

	And hopefully I'll meet them on the trail on day.  Even on easy stuff
like the Mojave Road.  (There is nothing better than a day spent odd pavement
with a bunch of LROs with their Land Rovers--well, ok, maybe 2 days...)

] I remember someone who shall remain nameless (Dixon Kenner) having a dig 
] about metal dash Land Rovers and SIII plastic dash Land Rovers !!!!

	That's because he couldn't open his beer on the dash.  I've since 
found a point on the SIII (and SIIA, SII..) that will do the same thing
so he's lost that point.

] I used the SIII as a means of taking it off-road as the wife wouldn't
] let me bash the RR. 

	Actually that is very common.
  
] Hey, I have a friend who will remain nameless, okay I told once already, 
] (Steve Bradke) who treats his SIII like it was a museum piece, nothing wrong 
] with that, and I respect him for it because he wants to look after it, but he
] did go off-road ONCE,  each to his own.   

	Ok, just to be clear here.  I think that percentage wise more D90s
and Series vehicles are used off road (and for more challenging terrain) than 
Discoveries and Range Rovers.  Does this mean that all of these vehicles can't
take it and are not all fully capable?  No.  Are there exceptions?  Yes.  All
it does is reflect how they are used by the general public in the US.  That's 
it. 

	And the rest of my previous post was trying to explain why certain
vehicles are used off-road less than others.    And why some people see
more of Land Rover type X than Land Rover type Y when off road.  

	As always, YMMV.

Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

From: "Dean Cording" <CORDINGD@mail.navmat.navy.gov.au>
Date:          Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:45:17 +1000
Subject:       Re: Differentials

> > As I understand it, when the center differential is unlocked on 
> > my '95 Discovery, loss of traction on one wheel has the potential
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
> have some traction (resistance) on a spinning wheel, some traction will be
> supplied to the other wheel.
> TeriAnn

Sorry TeriAnn but you got it wrong.  What you said only applies to 
part time 4wd vehicles like Series LR which don't have a centre diff.

If a wheel starts to spin on a full time 4wd and the centre diff 
isn't locked then all power will be transferred to the spinning 
wheel.

Dean
77 Series III Game

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 02:55:38 +0100
From: sm095re@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Kurt Reinhardt)
Subject: Range Rover parts

Hi folks, I am looking for adresses of a french supplier of Range Rover parts.
Especially in diff-protectors and front and rear skid plates. They are
called Allmakes and the second is ETT (Eggenspiller tout terrain). If anyone
has their adresses or fax-numbers I would be glad if he could mail them to me.

Thanks for your efforts
Kurt
88 Range 2 door diesel (regular taken off road)
....Yes, I wave to every Land Rover

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 02:06:07 UT
From: "Mark Talbot" <Land_Rover@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Range Rovers off road 

Ben, 

No problem, I totally understand where you are going from, just trying to make 
sure that newer Land Rover owners get a fair crack. 

To be honest, 98% of the $55K RR owners have no intention of going off -road, 
they are treating those RR's like a Merc or Lexus etc. Shame but that is a 
fact.

I plan on taking my 88 RR to Colorado for this mega Land Rover gathering in 
August this year. I'm looking forward to going over the great divide, with 
Steve Bradke as my partner, navigator. So if your going, you will se at least 
this RR owner going for it. 

Rgds
Mark   

----------
From:  Benjamin Allan Smith
Sent:  Monday, January 08, 1996 8:25 PM
Subject:  Re: Range Rovers off road 

To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

Mark Talbot wrote:

	Sigh, I knew better than to get embroiled in this...

] Range Rovers are GREAT vehicles with exceptional capabilities.  

	No where was I saying that Rangies weren't good vehicles.  All I was
saying was the pattern of use that I've observed.  That's it.  And I forgot
to add in closing in the last message that any stock 4x4 that survives the 
Camel Trophy is (in my book) one of the best 4x4s built.  So that includes
Range Rover Classics, SIIIs, D90s, D110s, D130s, and Discoveries.  (the
new Range Rover (mk2 <-a designation that I used to keep them separate) and
the "Adventurer" (or what ever it is to be called) have yet so attempt my
litmus test so I don't have an opinion for or against them yet.
 
] I do plan on using my 88 RR to go off-road. However, I will be careful that 
I
] don't go dent every panel, as I have to use it for my daily vehicle, to take 

] clients out in it etc.  The fact that panels and parts cost a fortune 
] prohibits most from going off-road. 

	And that might be the reason that I and others have observered fewer
Rangies off road than any other type of Land Rover.  When I off-road I don't
try and dent panels.  I was referring to trails on which panel bashing was a
risk, not a certainty.  I find those trails to be more challenging and 
hence more interesting.  For others, that risk is too high.  That was all 
that I was saying, that's all.  And my Rover is my daily drive.  It is my
only vehicle.  If I break it, I walk to work until I get parts.  

] Come on, most people who have RR's do know where they came from heritage 
wise
] that's obvious. 

	For owners that bought new since the D110 came to America I would
have to agree with you.  Before then, they didn't even know what a "Land 
Rover"
was.

] But there is also a huge ownership of 2nd hand vehicles that DO appreciate 
] their heritage and capabilities and that is becoming more obvious on this 
] list.  

	And hopefully I'll meet them on the trail on day.  Even on easy stuff
like the Mojave Road.  (There is nothing better than a day spent odd pavement
with a bunch of LROs with their Land Rovers--well, ok, maybe 2 days...)

] I remember someone who shall remain nameless (Dixon Kenner) having a dig 
] about metal dash Land Rovers and SIII plastic dash Land Rovers !!!!

	That's because he couldn't open his beer on the dash.  I've since 
found a point on the SIII (and SIIA, SII..) that will do the same thing
so he's lost that point.

] I used the SIII as a means of taking it off-road as the wife wouldn't
] let me bash the RR. 

	Actually that is very common.
  
] Hey, I have a friend who will remain nameless, okay I told once already, 
] (Steve Bradke) who treats his SIII like it was a museum piece, nothing wrong 

] with that, and I respect him for it because he wants to look after it, but 
he
] did go off-road ONCE,  each to his own.   

	Ok, just to be clear here.  I think that percentage wise more D90s
and Series vehicles are used off road (and for more challenging terrain) than 
Discoveries and Range Rovers.  Does this mean that all of these vehicles can't
take it and are not all fully capable?  No.  Are there exceptions?  Yes.  All
it does is reflect how they are used by the general public in the US.  That's 
it. 

	And the rest of my previous post was trying to explain why certain
vehicles are used off-road less than others.    And why some people see
more of Land Rover type X than Land Rover type Y when off road.  

	As always, YMMV.

Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 
88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:17:32 -0800
Subject:  Re: Differentials
From: Hugo Madden <madhugo@best.com>

>Sorry TeriAnn but you got it wrong.  What you said only applies to 
>part time 4wd vehicles like Series LR which don't have a centre diff.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>isn't locked then all power will be transferred to the spinning 
>wheel.

Oh, yup but if the centre diff has viscous coupling it'll lock up real fast!

                                                        _______
                                                       //_/_|__\___
                                                       \_ - ___ - _d 
                                                         (o)   (o)

------------------------------

From: Simon Barclay <sbar@jna.com.au>
Subject: Re: Range Rovers off road
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 13:16:00 EST

Just to throw fuel on to the fire.....

.... no-one out there seems to remember in 1956/57 an expedition from Oxford 
(??) University, sponsored by Shell and Dunlop using 2 Land Rovers were the 
first vehicles every to drive (I use this term loosely as they in the spirit 
of the Camel' had to build most of the tracks) across Columbia - trying to 
blaze this part of the Pan American Highway.  (Ref: The Wild Roads - 
Transcontinental Motoring last published 1968).  [I have further details if 
any one wants them.  This is a fascinating book.]

Then in 1973 British Army Officers (amongst others) using Range Rovers were 
the first to cross the hither to uncrossed by wheeled vehicle Darian Isthmus 
(also part of the Pan American Highway).   Though I do recall that Series 
LR's were also used to cut trails!!

I guess this tells us that all are very capable vehicles, maybe the MkII 
Range Rover (as Ben calls it) can cross the North/South Pole to prove the 
point.

Some of these details maybe slightly in error, as I'm writing this from 
memory, but the essence is correct.

Simon Barclay
Sydney Australia

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:19:28 -0800
Subject: Fwd:       Re: Differentials
From: Hugo Madden <madhugo@best.com>

Sorry TeriAnn but you got it wrong.  What you said only applies to 
part time 4wd vehicles like Series LR which don't have a centre diff.

If a wheel starts to spin on a full time 4wd and the centre diff 
isn't locked then all power will be transferred to the spinning 
wheel.

Dean
77 Series III Game

                                                        _______
                                                       //_/_|__\___
                                                       \_ - ___ - _d 
                                                         (o)   (o)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:15:33 +0930
From: philr@ozemail.com.au (Phil Rofe)
Subject: heating passengers in a series 3 88

Dear all

Having been 'lurking' for several weeks now and marvelling at the stories
of ice and snow, I in the depths pf tropical Australia (Darwin, Northern
Territory) have been wondering if any have had (or needed) the experience
of cooling a series 3 down.  Specifically, the passenger side foot well
seems to become almost too hot to touch.  I  am hoping that there perhaps
exhists an exhaust pipe heat shield or some such as original equipment on
the series 88 and perhaps I should get serious about finding one.

Bye the way an important consideration could be that Darwin's day time
temperature sits around 32 degrees C with  a humidiity of about 70 %...it
is supposed to be the 'wet season' but the rain seems to have moved to the
East!

Any comments would be appreciated; until then I'll drive the Defender 110
with the aircon turned up except when the temperature drops below 28!

Phil
Darwin NT Australia
1993 Depender 200 TDi
1975 series 3 88

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:49:36 -0500
From: landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mike Loiodice)
Subject: Re: Snow, Ice and Disco ABS

Mark sez....

>Some gut named Amadeo just wrote:
><ABS   the Discovery ABS is passive, not active like in the Range Rover>
><so it's not that great. The RR ABS is in my opinion much better although>
.......snip.......
>I don't know who this guy is but he doesn't know what the hell he is talking
>about. Both the Disco and the RR have the same 4 channel ABS systems. Mine
-

Ignore him! From his posts, he is a salesman at a Rover dealership, but IMHO
he should be selling yuppiemobiles and not Land Rovers...

Cheers
Mike

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:49:37 -0500
From: landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mike Loiodice)
Subject: Re: Range Rovers off road

>TeriAnn, visit http://www.pubsvc.dsr.com/LandRover/adventures.html and you 
>will see two Range Rovers in fairly extreme offroad conditions.  I 
>personally have never seen a Series IIa offroad, but I don't continually 
>remind the mail group of the fact.
-

Pttttttt....

I've seen Series I's, II's, IIa's, III's, 101's, Range Rovers, Discoveries
and D90's off road. Through some pretty nasty stuff, too. They all looked
marvelous and all the drivers had big grins!

Cheers
Mike
  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:43:19 -0800
From: aminner@ix.netcom.com (Allen Minner )
Subject: Re: West Coast Rover List

Hi and Happy New Year to All!

I have seen several mentions of a West Coast Land Rover List... How can 
I find it.  Any help or an address would be appreciated.

Allen Minner
Still Shopping for my Range Rover...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:44:18 -0800 (PST)
From: David Rosenbaum <rosenbau@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: D90 locking gas cap

On Mon, 8 Jan 1996 JEPurnell@aol.com wrote:

(SNIP) I found the note and called an auto parts store with the Stant
> part no., ok, $15.67, not too bad.  Had to get a water pump and a timing belt
> for another car and went to a NAPA store  to get it.  Asked about the stant
> number, yup, they had the equivalent, NAPA 703-2103, for $9.99.  Sure looks
> like a Stant.  I bought a 1995 D90SW with the savings.

Dear John,
	I'll gladly trade you my Stant cap for your '95 D90SW. I'll even 
*deliver* the cap!! ;-)

-David

------------------------------

From: Wdcockey@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:49:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: Differentials

In a message dated 96-01-08 21:23:05 EST, Dan wrote:

"Sorry TeriAnn but you got it wrong.  What you said only applies to 
part time 4wd vehicles like Series LR which don't have a centre diff.

If a wheel starts to spin on a full time 4wd and the centre diff 
isn't locked then all power will be transferred to the spinning 
wheel."

Actually TeriAnn has it right. And Dan's statement is also correct. Both
wheels on an axle with an open diff will see the same torque and the same
tractive force. If one wheel is spinning it will be at the level of the
spinning wheel. Likewise with an open center diff both axles see the same
torque, so all four wheels see the same tractive force, and if a wheel is
spinning it is the tractive force of the spinning wheel.

Now power is force times speed, and thus power is only flowing through the
spinning wheels. But all wheels are contributing to the tractive force.
Confused enough?

David Cockey

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 19:08:13 +0000
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Re: West Coast Rover List

:Hi and Happy New Year to All!
:
:I have seen several mentions of a West Coast Land Rover List... How can 
:I find it.  Any help or an address would be appreciated.

 Allen Minner,

 Write to Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil> to join,
 he's the volunteer listmeister.  Send messages to the group at
 <mendo_recce@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>

>Still Shopping for my Range Rover...

 May all your troubles be Rover!

 Michael Carradine, Architect                          Ph/Fax 510-988-0900
 Carradine Studios, PO Box 494, Walnut Creek, CA 94597 USA    <cs@crl.com>
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 4x4 WWW page at:  http://www.crl.com/~cs/unimog.html

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:55:58 -0800 (PST)
From: David Rosenbaum <rosenbau@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: D90 Hardtop-Party

Dear Michael:
  I don't have the hardtop, but here are some bits of previous posts to 
the Digest:

10/16/95 from Francis Twarog:
	...don't put those damn riv-nuts into spaces that don't need 
them. Simply meaning the first bolt just behind the door (right in front 
of the cage) can have a conventional bolt/nut setup without the hassle of 
loosening a riv-nut (not what you want to do when it is the last bolt you 
need to tighten) - also, you don't need to put a riv-nut in the hole just 
in front of the rear roll cage section - this too is easily reachable 
with a ratchet....
	...Also, is it me or did other people have to also trim the 
plastic pieces that the visors screw through - the long ones on either 
side of the interior light unit.  Both of them conflicted with the 
fiberglas top, so I trimmed a little bit off the edge to allow them to 
fit cleanly....

12/01/95 from Anthony Verriello:

	...I would not recommend installing it yourself the first time. 
Drilling and installing the riv-nuts will most likely not be worth the 
savings on the installation cost (6-8 hours of labor)...
	...Removing and reinstalling is straight forward...
	...Installing the second time: takes 2 people
  Hints: Takes five hours....Do it before it gets cold:lining-up 
holes is nearly impossible and dangerous when the fiberglas is brittle 
from the cold...make sure you have all the bits of hardware that you need
Wires to overhead lights need to go under the top, not in the door jamb.
Be patient and follow the instructions.

12/13/95 from Rick Larson:

	...You'll also need the front driver and passenger door weather 
stripping. I'd expect that this comes with the top but you may want to check.
	...You may want to reinforce the side-top screws with larger 
washers. I think I'm going to go with thin flat metal plates down the 
entire side. I've already had two bolts that have pulled through the 
fiberglass. Even on-road there seems to be a lot of flexing. 
	...Pay attention to the seals when installing the top. Will make 
a big difference in the rain.  Wish I had :(
	...Biggest problem I've found is that on the road the door windows
tend to bow out, creating air/water leaks and annoying whistle...

12/13/95 from Mike Fredette:

	...94's need to have the rear latch replaced with a keyed latch.

	...94's: you get to cut a new notch in the new hardtop since the 
notch already there is in the wrong place (for '94s) (95s have the 
riv-nuts already installed, 94's do not)

Good luck with the project! Please let me know how it turns out, and any 
further tips that you come up with.  Until I finish paying off my '94D90, 
I can only dream about more goodies.

It sounds like the riv-nuts maybe the worst of the project. If you're 
working on a '95, then *no problem* [My only experience with riv-nuts was 
while installing front mudflaps: not much fun, but wouldn't have mattered 
if I had screwed up.]

Finally, I suspect that it is essential to have some *Guinness* at the 
party. In view of what others have posted about the importance of getting 
things to fit right, the Guinness is probably best left until after the 
top is on.  Then, regardless of how the work went, you can get it to look
*PERFECT* by simply imbibing the right amount of stout.

Best wishes!
David

------------------------------

From: CORD5@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:03:27 -0500
Subject: Any reason?

Any particular reason nobody answered my question? If it is becuase I don't
own a LR, that's too bad.  Once again,  are Rovers significantly cheaper in
Europe?  What does a D90 or Disco go for?  When did Discos start being sold
in Europe?  Cord
ps - if you don't want to respond to a non lr owner publicly, you can email
me.

------------------------------

From: "Dean Cording" <CORDINGD@mail.navmat.navy.gov.au>
Date:          Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:29:19 +1000
Subject:       Re: heating passengers in a series 3 88

> Having been 'lurking' for several weeks now and marvelling at the stories
> of ice and snow, I in the depths pf tropical Australia (Darwin, Northern
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> exhists an exhaust pipe heat shield or some such as original equipment on
> the series 88 and perhaps I should get serious about finding one.

You could try wrapping some exhaust heat sheilding tape (I forget its 
proper name) around the pipe.  The tape is essentially an insulator.

> Bye the way an important consideration could be that Darwin's day time
> temperature sits around 32 degrees C with  a humidiity of about 70 %...it
> is supposed to be the 'wet season' but the rain seems to have moved to the
> East!

Your not wrong.  We have received nearly four times our average 
monthly rainfall so far, and there's still three weeks to go.  My 
Series III may never dry out.  As it is all the windows fog up when 
the sun comes out.

Dean
Series III Game
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:31:04 -0500
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Frame overs

Michael Carradine writes:
>**Voila** all done... sounds much harder than it actually is....Maybe on 
>your next frameover you can try the Western Underbody method.

I dunno, Michael.  Kinda sounds like the LR manual "offer the gearbox to the 
engine...."  or "Reverse steps 1-14..."
      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |       Rover Owners' Association of Virginia         |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Differentials
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:13:42 -0800

>another question, though: Are there any disadvantages to limited-
>slip differentials? If not, why aren't they a standard feature of
>"full-time" 4WD systems. As I understand it, when the center
>differential is unlocked on my '95 Discovery, loss of traction on
>one wheel has the potential to drain power from the other three.
This is true. When driving on low-traction surfaces (dirt, gravel, mud, 
etc.) you should lock the center diff so you have to lose traction on BOTH a 
front-tire and a back-tire before you are spinning helplessly.
>That potential, in turn, would seem to take away some of the
>advantages of a "full-time" system when driving on the road in
>areas where one might encounter, say, patchy ice or mixed snow and
>dry pavement. This, too, is a serious question. Thanks in advance. 
I don't know if it takes anything away, it's just that there are more 
options available than are found on the standard equipment list. The Range 
Rover addresses the traction problem quite effectively (so I understand) by 
modulating the brakes of the spinning tire (sort-of a reverse ABS, if you 
will) but that comes at a significant extra cost and you can't get them on a 
Disco. Likewise  you can add limited-slip differentials of the various types 
previously described, however they also introduce a variety of handling 
"personality traits" (such as wheel wear, jerking, fish-tailing, thunking 
and clunking, etc.) as well as additional cost and strain on the drive-line 
depending on the type installed. Not every one wants to have that in thier 
car. Those that do buy them as aftermarket options. 

Another thing to consider is that since it's all about traction, you might 
 think about changing the tires your driving conditions. While the stock 
michelins are very good tires, in general, you might think about using 
studded snow tires if you drive in snow & ice or some other tire more suited 
to your driving conditions. This is alot easier (though not necessarily 
cheaper) to change than your differential innards.

With some off-road driving practice and/or classes and a little practice, I 
think you'll find the Discovery to be quite capable "off-the-rack". There 
are certainly things you can add to it, depending on how/where you plan to 
use it. Likewise, there are places and times that it just won't go no matter 
what you do to it, you just have to go farther than the average SUV to find 
them :-)
    _____
   /|__|_\__(|                           Bob Watson
  |   |   |  \                 a-robw@microsoft.com
  |---|___|___\____      Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA 
  |  _|=  |=  |o_  }\                
 [|_/_ \__|___|/_\_}|    '95 Beluga Black Discovery
    \_/        \_/                            N7UMU

------------------------------

From: ASFCO@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:49:47 -0500
Subject: Off Road Adventure (s)

All;          Just wanted to clarify what Mark Talbot said regarding my ONE
off road experience...It has actually been FIVE.... once in the woods at the
end of the street for a photo...once in Maine at last years rally. I was with
Mark at the Saturday off road event with his Series  lll  while our wives
were in my s lll in Camden on a shopping spree. Towards the end of the day
they pulled into the event area which was well off the road..AND the next day
at the airport rally site where I had to drive over the grass to the display
area......................................

                                                                          and
once at Ray and Heather Dixons infamous Rocky Road tour in NH where thanks to
Ray  I did manage to get that Rover of mine very dirty,. even had a small
tree growing out of the spare tire on the bonnet thanks to Marks dad Trevor
who was visiting from the UK and was along for the ride.    OK thats
FOUR...... well....FIVE if you count jumping a curb and climbing a small hill
to get to  Ray and Heathers house  for the BBQ....BTW couldn't make it up the
hill ..my tires are like bologna skins...... had to go around the corner and
use the driveway.

                                                                          And
Yes I did run out of gas on the way to Maine last year .. and it was Mark
Talbot who saved me...

                                                                       Thanks
Mark you're a good friend and a True L-R  fanatic !!!!!

                                                                      Regards
To All      Steve      WA2GMC     72 s lll 88

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:56:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us>
Subject: Re: heating passengers in a series 3 88

On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Phil Rofe wrote:

> Having been 'lurking' for several weeks now and marvelling at the stories
of ice and snow, I in the depths pf tropical Australia (Darwin, Northern
Territory) have been wondering if any have had (or needed) the experience
of cooling a series 3 down.  Specifically, the passenger side foot well
seems to become almost too hot to touch.  I  am hoping that there perhaps
exhists an exhaust pipe heat shield or some such as original equipment on
the series 88 and perhaps I should get serious about finding one.

Phil,

Last summer (July here) I experienced a similar problem, but it was my
foot that was suffering, not my passenger's (LHD).  I installed a genuine
exhaust manifold heat shield, just a piece of sheet metal, and it solved
the problem beautifully.  I recommend them highly, and they are relatively
inexpensive, too.  Don't forget to order all the mounting hardware at the
same time. 

Rgds, 
              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
              * Walter C. Swain         | wcswain@dcn.davis.ca.us       *
              * Davis Community Network | 1988 Range Rover              * 
              * Davis, California       | 1967 109 Series IIA Safari SW *
              * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:37:46 -0500
From: Jeff & Laura Kessler <lmkessler@srnet.com>
Subject: Range Rover sidelined again

Sorry about the double entry in yesterday's digest.

The problem I thought was a frozen fuel line is back.

My RR does not want to start again.  Only 10 F ABOVE 0 but windy.

The engine cranks and we jumped it to insure plenty of volts and we are
getting a spark at the plugs.  We tried some starter fluid but that did not
help.

We think something is keeping it from getting the fuel but what?

It ran fine this morning and at lunch time but after work, nothing.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Jeff Kessler
88 RR
Newport NH  603-863-7883        work  603-526-4741

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Any reason? 
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 21:36:42 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <199601090404.XAA05268@butler.uk.stratus.com>you wrote:
  
> Any particular reason nobody answered my question? If it is becuase I don't
> own a LR, that's too bad.  

	Probably because people didn't have the information in front of them
when they saw your post.

> Once again, are Rovers significantly cheaper in
> Europe?  What does a D90 or Disco go for?  

	Land Rover Prices (as reported in the August 1995 LRO, p.16)

Tdi=300 Turbo Diesel Engine  (not availible in the US)
V8i=I assume this is the 3.9 V8 found in the US 
2.5 DT = Diesel, I think the naturally aspirated 4 cylinder, but I not sure
(I assumed 1 UK pound=$1.66 US)

                          IK price  In US$     US Availibility &
Discovery                                      MSRP
  3dr Mpi                  L18,400  $30,544    N/A
  3dr Tdi                  L19,250  $31,955    N/A
  3dr V8i                  L19,700  $32,702    N/A
  5dr Mpi                  L20,450  $33,947    N/A
  5dr Tdi                  L21,300  $35,358    N/A
  5dr MPi S                L21,635  $35,914    N/A
  5dr Tdi S                L22,485  $37,325    N/A
  5dr V8i S                L22,935  $38,072    $29,950  (not sure which is US
  5dr Tdi XS               L24,995  $41,492    N/A        model)
  5dr V8i XS               L25,445  $42,238    $29,950
  5dr Tdi ES               L28,450  $47,227    N/A
  5dr V8i ES               L28,900  $47,974    $29,290

Ranger Rover (mkII)
  4.0                      L32,850  $54,531    N/A
  2.5 DT                   L32,850  $54,531    N/A
  4.0 SE                   L37,200  $61,752    $54,000
  2.5 DSE                  L37,200  $61,752    N/A
  4.6 HSE                  L44,850  $74,451    $62,650

Defender 90
  Soft Top                   ???      ???      $28,650  V8 engine
  Pick-up Tdi              L14,981  $24,869    N/A
  HardTop Tdi              L13,483  $22,382    N/A
  Station Wagon Tdi        L16,978  $28,184    $29,000 V8  Unclear if County
  County Station Wagon Tdi L17,730  $29,432                or not. Only 500.
 
Defender 110
  Pickup Tdi               L16,332  $27,111    N/A
  High Cap Tdi             L17,037  $28,281    N/A
  Hard Top Tdi             L17,037  $28,281    N/A
  County Station Wagon Tdi L20,268  $33,645    $40,000 Sold only in 1993 and 
                                                 500 imported.  Used prices
                                                 var from $38,000 to $48,000

Defender 130
  CrewCab Tdi              L23,494  $39,000    N/A

Range Rover Classic
  Tdi Man                  L29,475  $48,929    N/A
  Vogue SE                 L37,230  $61,802    unknown, few left on lots.
                                               about $50,000

> When did Discos start being sold in Europe?  

     The Discovery was introduced at the Franfurt (Germany) Auto show in
September 1989.

Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Off Road Adventure (s) 
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 21:44:40 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <199601090450.XAA05336@butler.uk.stratus.com>you wrote:
  
] Towards the end of the day
] they pulled into the event area which was well off the road..AND the next day
] at the airport rally site where I had to drive over the grass to the display
] area
    (snip)  
] And
] Yes I did run out of gas on the way to Maine last year .. and it was Mark
] Talbot who saved me...

	Now that's all quite odd.  I was the SIII 88" that stopped right after
Mark left to get gas.  The Rover world is quite small.

Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:10:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Re: Re:Differentials
From: Hugo Madden <madhugo@best.com>

>If a wheel starts to spin on a full time 4wd and the centre diff 
>isn't locked then all power will be transferred to the spinning 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
>Now power is force times speed, and thus power is only flowing through the
>spinning wheels. But all wheels are contributing to the tractive force.
>Confused enough?

Yes well of course an open diff transmits exactly equal torque to each 
axle but if one wheel is spinning in free air so the torque on all four 
wheels is close to zero that doesn't really help you if you're stuck in a 
snow drift now does it?

                                                        _______
                                                       //_/_|__\___
                                                       \_ - ___ - _d 
                                                         (o)   (o)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:34:32 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Disco questions

The manual says not to push the Disco to freeway speed for at least 500
miles.  I took mine on a 6,500 mile road trip right after the break-in
period.  It now has 15,000 miles and seems okay so far.

Cheers!
John
'95 Discovery

At 17:42 08.01.96 -0500, Alexander P. Grice wrote:
>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>Still considering a Disco purchase...just paid the Christmas bills and it 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 26 lines)]
>      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
>      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

From: dwebb@waite.adelaide.edu.au (Daryl Webb)
Subject: Re: heating passengers in a series 3 88
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:21:48 +1030 (CST)

> of cooling a series 3 down.  Specifically, the passenger side foot well
> seems to become almost too hot to touch.  I  am hoping that there perhaps
> exhists an exhaust pipe heat shield or some such as original equipment on
> the series 88 and perhaps I should get serious about finding one.

Hi Phil, The approach we took was different.  We got some closed cell foam,
like used bushwalking sleeping mats. there are p[lenty of camping stores up
there now so should bve easy to get cheap ones.  Cut them to fit over the
floor, then get a piece of heavyish rubber matting to hold it down.  Doesnt
stop the problem completely but does help a lot.  One side effect to be aware
of. When water gets under the foam, like a reynolds crossing or you leave
the window open one night, it gets real slippery. Passengers beware.

Being in Darwin, and a land-rover person presumably you have run into Ray
West, If not look for him under "Ray West projector sales and service"  He is
a mine of information and LR expertise.  I'd be real interested to find out
how his 109 6x6 finished up.  Tell him I say "Hi"  

cheers
-- 

  Daryl Webb   (dwebb@waite.adelaide.edu.au)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 17:53:34 EST
From: carley@manly.civeng.unsw.EDU.AU (James Carley - WRL Staff)
Subject: Re:  heating passengers in a series 3 88

Others may have more specific replies but here's my 2 cents worth.

Discussions in car type newsgroups (aus.cars) seems to always recommend
some special type of wrap on exhaust heat shield which is apparantly
available from auto parts stores which cater to the speed set, though the
context of this solution is usually aftermarket headers frying electrics.

>From a bit of thermal engineering I did many years ago, I seem to remember
that Aluminium reflects heat better than almost anything else, hence foil
type insulation products. Multiple layers of aluminium separated by an air
gap or insulating material work best. The early Isuzu diesel engined 110's
in Australia had a bit of a design problem in that the exhaust manifold
melted the plastic air con box (on air con models). I recently repaired
mine with epoxy and glass fibre and made up an aluminium heat shield
which comprised 2 sheets of rigid Aluminium sheet pop rivetted together
with 2 or three washers separating the sheets at each rivet - hence an
air gap of a few mm. This backyard heat shield seems to be working
well as does my air con which no longer blows into the engine bay.

James Carley
Sydney Australia
'85 110 3.9D

------------------------------

From: JCassidyiv@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:03:02 -0500
Subject: Yahoo!-I got stuck!

It's 01:59 here in Bangor, Maine and I'm slowly warming up after getting my
1987 RR stuck in a ditch about 2.5 hours ago!  Much time spent on my back in
the snow with a shovel.  To make a long story shorter, I was driving along a
road with lots of drifting snow with a friend as co-pilot and we hit a raised
ridge of powder in the middle of the road and floated off to the
shoulder(which you couldn't see because the road and the ditch were level).
 Once in the ditch, we sank through two layers of hardpack snow which the
front of the frame came to rest on.  We dug out the whole truck, but all she
did was spin.  Said friend walked to his house toget his S-10 Blazer, but it
didn't have the guts to pull us out(thanks to the Rover Gods for sparing me
the emmbarassment!)  Finally found an acquaintance at the local truck stop
with a 1-ton Chevy with dual rear wheels who had a full load of sand to pull
her out.  His truck almost couldn't do it because of the poor traction.  We
finally got unstuck-I cancelled my call to AAA-and we all went back to the
truck stop for coffee.
      I broke almost every off-roading/snow driving rule, but man did we make
some memories!  The truck is fine and there were no personal injuries.  We
couldn't stop chuckling over coffee-I guess it was due to exhaustion.  The
guy who pulled us out simply asked-"How much does that thing weigh, anyway!?"
     Cheers!  Be careful in the snow!  John

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Discovery-Stuck in the Snow
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:11:42 -0800

Have you tried this method? Does it stink (from burning brakes & revving 
engine)?

---------- 
From: 	Russell Burns[SMTP:burns@cisco.com]
Sent: 	Friday, January 05, 1996 8:21 PM
Subject: 	Re: Discovery-Stuck in the Snow

That is how it works. With the center dif locked and one front and
one rear wheel spinning, you are stuck.
One way to hopfully get unstuck is to spin the wheels faster than
5 mph, and apply the abs brakes. This is hard on the truck,
but it can get you unstuck. If you are only digging in deeper
quit, and start shoveling.

Russ Burns
  

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