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Date: Mon, 25 Dec 95 11:01:08 +0100
From: Igor Cerutti <igor@tinet.ch>
Subject: Re:Re: Merry Christams from Switzerland

At 17,25 24.12.95 +0000, you wrote:
>Coinsins, near Vich/Nyon. Very pleasant part of the world, and at least you
>get a chance to use your Land Rovers in real snow.

I know about Coinsin, this place is also a beautiful place in the french
part of Switzerland. I'm very pleasant to met someone from England, because
I like England and english cars to (specially Land Rover). I lived in
England for 6 months near Cambridge, in Saffron Walden. And tree time a year
I try to go to England (for Holidays, classic car meeting like Beaulieu
other the NEC in Birmingham).
About the snow, this year is really bad. I don't know, but in the last 10
years also in Switzerland we have some problems, because of the to hot
temperature!
It snowing only in the mountains, and only at the beginning and at the end
of the Winter season ! Strange, very strange!
But sure we get a chance to use our Land Rovers in real snow !
This year will be fine to take part in the "Croisier Blanche" in the French
Alps. Do you know about it. I think it will be start on the 17 of january,
but I don't know about the cost, where and when exactly! And the most
important if there is now the possibility to take part !
Still, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !

IGOR

SIII '88 Pick Up 1976
RR 3.5 Carb 1984
RR 3.5 Efi 1986
D90 Tdi 1993

kind regards
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Real Name       : Igor Cerutti
Address         : TINET Sagl, Centro Galleria 2, 6928 Manno-Lugano
Country         : Switzerland 
Phone Number    : ++41 91 6108118
Fax Number      : ++41 91 6108119
e-mail          : igor@tinet.ch, http://www.tinet.ch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 95 11:01:15 +0100
From: Igor Cerutti <igor@tinet.ch>
Subject: Re:Re: Merry Christmas from Switzerland

At 11,24 24.12.95 -0800, you wrote:

>Hello Igor,
>Thank you for your season greetings to the LRO list.  I would like to 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>the List, and even those of us who are "native" speakers have our
>difficulties.

Yes I know, but for the most of non-english speakers hier on the LRO list;
english is the second language, for me is the fourth! But I know also, that
english is the most important language of the World, and for that I would
encourage me to be more active on the LRO list!
About the difficulties of "native" speakers I'm completely agree, we have
the same problem in Europe!!!

>I'm looking forward to hearing of your experiences with your fleet of 
>Land Rovers.

Ok, I would try to do my best!

Still, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year !

IGOR

SIII '88 Pick Up 1976
RR 3.5 Carb 1984
RR 3.5 Efi 1986
D90 Tdi 1993

kind regards
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Real Name       : Igor Cerutti
Address         : TINET Sagl, Centro Galleria 2, 6928 Manno-Lugano
Country         : Switzerland 
Phone Number    : ++41 91 6108118
Fax Number      : ++41 91 6108119
e-mail          : igor@tinet.ch, http://www.tinet.ch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 09:44:45 -0500 (EST)
From: John Antram <rewt@sover.net>
Subject: Sales People; Good, Bad, Ugly and Yuppie.

	I think from what people are saying around the list is that 
basicly the dealers in thier area suck. While I have not asked for series 
parts at our dealer ( RN being 20 miles north of there.) They do work on 
them. There has been a series III sitting right next to a RR County in 
the repair(ed) are of the lot. The sales people I've delt with have taken 
thier vacations at the off-road school in Colorado and the dealership 
puts on an off-road event every year. While this may not qualify them as 
rabid Series people, they certianly seem more accepting of Series rovers 
and the people who own them then perhapps other dealers. If anyone is up 
in Vermont skiing, and wants to look at new Rovers, I'd recomend the 
(Automaster).

	P.S. I'm just a happy Discovery owner; itching like mad for my 
SIII to return.

John Antram	rewt@sover.net RR 3 Box 888 Middlebury, Vt 05753
1972 Land Rover Series III 88" red, sunroofs
1995 Land Rover Discovery 5-speed, sunroofs, Roman Bronze
1987 Mercedes Benz 300 SDL Anthracite Gray

------------------------------

From: jpappa01@interserv.com
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 08:08:22 -0800
Subject: Re: 	Misc.

Hi all:

Here it is, another Xmas morning. It's a white one here in Beantown, and 
bright sun. Perfect. The old 109 is fringed with icicles - I love it! Hope 
everyone had a safe and happy one as well.

My comment about the *salesman* stuff... I kinda figured my posting from the 
other day might gear up some bandwidth. All I can say is that personally, I'm 
an enthusiast first, a *salesman* second. As in *ANY* occupation, there are 
good ones and bad ones. The other fellow's point, I'm sure, no matter how he 
stated it, was that. I don't think that the atypical *car salesman* would take 
the time, interest, and trouble to subscribe to the LRO digest, do you? I have 
seen selling styles at Land Rover dealerships that I don't particularly like, 
even at our own store. We're talking human beings here - but I think that 
blanket stereotyping is something to be avoided these days. There really are 
some genuine enthusiasts trying to get non-LROs interested, educated, and, if 
qualified, involved with our LR world. What's wrong with that. The other guy's 
point that any business must make a profit certainly is correct. Once again, 
this can be rather obvious, and doesn't really need to be stated in blunt 
terms. Why else to the majority of us get up early every day to go somewhere 
to do something. Just to break even? I don't think so. Personally, I'd rather 
go four-wheeling every day in *any* Land Rover. Selling them is the closest 
thing I can do that comes close. Some guys just moved into selling Rovers from 
other car lines. Some didn't. I never sold a wet paper bag before this. I left 
the security of a regular paycheck to work strictly on a fee for service 
basis. But being around Solihull's finest is what keeps me going.... I've made 
lots of friends in the process and managed to pay the bills (bills = *other 
business' profits*). What more could I ask for?

Please let's not be too hard on any group of people. Individual rogues exist 
everywhere. If you single them out and don't like them, then don't patronize 
them! That simple.

Enjoy the new year! See you on the trail.

cheerz
Jim

`67 2A 88 5.0L hybrid
`67 2A 109 5.0L hybrid
`68 2B 110 F/C diesel
`70 P6B 3500S
`90 Range Rover County
`93 D110 (#457/500)
`95 D90 #1958

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 15:48:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Why Buy a RR 4.0 SE

Mechanics Illustrated maybe?.  The magazine was recent, but I'm not positive
of the title. - Tony

------------------------------

From: ecoethic@rcinet.com
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 16:25:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Yuppies and Rover Salesmen

Happy Holidays Everyone, Everywhere, Series and non-Series Owners,

I simply must join the current discussion threads concerning yuppies, car 
salesmen, and the denial of Land Rover heritage.

There is indeed a bit of snobbery in some Rover dealerships. I remember visiting a 
certain dealership in Cincinnati last year looking at a very attractive yellow D90. 
The salesman was attentive and patient and was willing to show me anything, but 
then I started to tell him about how I was working on my Ph.D. and that both my 
wife and daughter were full time students as well. The glow on his end of the 
month quota face started to fade as he realized that maybe I was just dreaming; I 
didn't have enough money. I really frosted the cake when I told him about my 
Series III's and the various Land Rover clubs across the country! The smile on his 
face disappeared altogether.

Many of the people on this list are the exception to the rule that seems to prevail: 
Current Land Rover products are for the affluent; Most current owners are not 
mechanically inclined; Most current model owners do not wave to Series owners 
because they are truly ignorant of their heritage, or, if they do recognize the name 
on that strange brick-like disgustingly utilitarian thing with no power-anything and 
no radio, they develop x-ray eyes and look right through you. The many fine 
people on this list who own both new and old models are very special "yuppies" 
who may be affluent, but have a healthy appreciation for the history of Land 
Rovers' mechanical evolution, and, above all, they wave to us poor slobs in old 
Series models.

The prevailing attitudes of many of the non-list "yuppies" (and I mean that in the 
derogatory sense as applied to materialistic status conscious individuals who do 
not off-road), and the usual Land Rover salesman, reminds me of the British 
sit-com "Keeping Up Appearances" where the principal character Hyacinth is 
perpetually concerned about what other people think of her, and is mortified when 
her poor "dead common" relatives come to visit. I am still waiting for an episode 
where an old Series appears when she thought the person was arriving in a proper 
Range Rover. How humiliating!

Now, if there are people on this list who are affluent, own a newish RR, 
Discovery, or D90, know nothing about mechanical workings, have never changed 
their own oil, run to a dealer everytime something squeaks, and have never taken 
their vehicle off-road because they abhor the thought of getting a scratch or dent 
and just want to appear as if they can go anywhere, well, this comment is for you: 
I feel sorry for you, but thanks. Somebody has to take the hit of outrageous 
depreciation on new vehicles so that they can pass the decades in good condition 
while they get to the point where I and others can afford them. They should be 
satisfied to know that some deserving soul would take loving care of the vehicle 
and that they would actually take it off-road to high adventure where new vehicles 
fear to tread, but, are they ever missing something!

I do not doubt that many "yuppies" secretly admire Series owners who carry tools 
and spares for every conceivable event and keep their vehicles going through all 
sorts of adventures. They realize that all they can do is throw money at 
dealerships in order to keep their image up. I must admit that it is sometimes very 
miserable to be lying on your back wrestling with old bolts, but then, I have a 
relationship with my Rovers, they have history and many wonderful memories. 
Where were all you "yuppies" when I was criss-crossing the rockies in Colorado at 
high-elevation this summer? I did not see one of you in three weeks. You missed a 
great experience that money can not buy. I purchased the Rover I used on that trip 
for $2600 from the original owner, and I poured much labor and a few thousand 
dollars of parts into completely checking it out. The only problems I encountered 
on the whole trip were vapor lock and a loose wire, which I solved myself, but I 
was prepared to handle much more. I'll never appreciate how people can drive 
vehicles that they do not understand mechanically, or that they do not respect. 
Even if I could afford a $30,000+ Rover,(my student loans far exceed that!) I think 
I would prefer an old Series because of its honesty and utilitarian beauty. I would 
consider a D90 only because it reminds me of the Series models, in truth.

Most people at this point would apologize for taking up so much "bandwidth," 
well, I'm not. I am glad I did.

Walter Pokines

Tipp City, Ohio (Mid-West Berkeley)
Multiple Series Owner 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 00:52:18 -0500
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Disco pricing redux

Still looking for a new vehicle.  The requirements:

Me: A go-anywhere vehicle.
The wife: Air conditioning.
The kid: Something stylish.
The dogs: More *room* in the back.

When you get all of the above, you rapidly outgrow an 88.

Anyway, I've been beating the bushes on Disco prices, and the local 
dealership offered me $1,500 off MSRP even before we started talking price.
What I've learned from outisde sources (the "Edmunds" reports, http://
enews.com/magazines/edmunds/) as well as those *inside* LRNA.

-The dealer markup is about 15-16%.  To allow the dealer to pay for heat, 
lights, etc, about 10% off MSRP is the best deal anyone outside Rover is 
going to get.
-The five speed is not selling.  Only 5-6% of the basic, SD model have 
manual trannys and most *don't* want it.  The local dealer has sold 40 
Discos this year, only one of which has been a manual...and I'm trying to 
deal on the other...a black one.
-LRNA is trying to sell 20,000 units by year's end.  With a thousand to go, 
they *may* be in a better frame of mind to deal right now.
-The beluga black paint is the hardest to keep looking good (that's why it's 
clear coated).  However, it is the easiest to touch up.

I asked my source inside LRNA why a stripped Disco isn't offered...one with 
crank up windows, manual everything, no anti-lock brakes, etc.  The reply 
(probably quoted out of some manual) is that the buying public didn't want 
these...the public wanted the luxury.

I dunno.  If you could get it past EPA, I think a stripper 300 TDi would be 
*perfect* for this market.  Vinyl seats, hose-out interior, manual 
everything.  I'm sure that a fleet version of the Disco is offered in the 
UK.  Could anyone across the pond enlighten us as to the difference between 
the top of the line and bottom end prices?

BTW - The only engines offered in the '95 US spec Discovery are the 4.0 and 
4.6 petrol.  Cheers

-
      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |       Rover Owners' Association of Virginia         |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 1995 22:05:25 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Yuppies and Rover Salesmen

So, Walter, did you at least get what you wanted for Christmas?

Cheers!
John
'95 Discovery (That's "Bucket," not "Bouquet")

At 16:25 25.12.95 -0500, ecoethic@rcinet.com wrote:
>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>Happy Holidays Everyone, Everywhere, Series and non-Series Owners,
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
>salesmen, and the denial of Land Rover heritage.
>There is indeed a bit of snobbery in some Rover dealerships. I remember
visiting a 
>certain dealership in Cincinnati last year looking at a very attractive
yellow D90. 
>The salesman was attentive and patient and was willing to show me anything,
but 
>then I started to tell him about how I was working on my Ph.D. and that
both my 
>wife and daughter were full time students as well. The glow on his end of the 
>month quota face started to fade as he realized that maybe I was just
dreaming; I 
>didn't have enough money. I really frosted the cake when I told him about my 
>Series III's and the various Land Rover clubs across the country! The smile
on his 
>face disappeared altogether.
>Many of the people on this list are the exception to the rule that seems to

prevail: 
>Current Land Rover products are for the affluent; Most current owners are not 
>mechanically inclined; Most current model owners do not wave to Series owners 
>because they are truly ignorant of their heritage, or, if they do recognize
the name 
>on that strange brick-like disgustingly utilitarian thing with no
power-anything and 
>no radio, they develop x-ray eyes and look right through you. The many fine 
>people on this list who own both new and old models are very special "yuppies" 
>who may be affluent, but have a healthy appreciation for the history of Land 
>Rovers' mechanical evolution, and, above all, they wave to us poor slobs in
old 
>Series models.
>The prevailing attitudes of many of the non-list "yuppies" (and I mean that
>who may be affluent, but have a healthy appreciation for the history of Land 
in the 
>derogatory sense as applied to materialistic status conscious individuals
who do 
>not off-road), and the usual Land Rover salesman, reminds me of the British 
>sit-com "Keeping Up Appearances" where the principal character Hyacinth is 
>perpetually concerned about what other people think of her, and is
mortified when 
>her poor "dead common" relatives come to visit. I am still waiting for an
episode 
>where an old Series appears when she thought the person was arriving in a
proper 
>Range Rover. How humiliating!
>Now, if there are people on this list who are affluent, own a newish RR, 
>Discovery, or D90, know nothing about mechanical workings, have never changed 
>their own oil, run to a dealer everytime something squeaks, and have never

taken 
>their vehicle off-road because they abhor the thought of getting a scratch
or dent 
>and just want to appear as if they can go anywhere, well, this comment is
for you: 
>I feel sorry for you, but thanks. Somebody has to take the hit of outrageous 
>depreciation on new vehicles so that they can pass the decades in good
condition 
>while they get to the point where I and others can afford them. They should be 
>satisfied to know that some deserving soul would take loving care of the
vehicle 
>and that they would actually take it off-road to high adventure where new
vehicles 
>fear to tread, but, are they ever missing something!
>I do not doubt that many "yuppies" secretly admire Series owners who carry
>Discovery, or D90, know nothing about mechanical workings, have never changed 
tools 
>and spares for every conceivable event and keep their vehicles going
through all 
>sorts of adventures. They realize that all they can do is throw money at 
>dealerships in order to keep their image up. I must admit that it is
sometimes very 
>miserable to be lying on your back wrestling with old bolts, but then, I
have a 
>relationship with my Rovers, they have history and many wonderful memories. 
>Where were all you "yuppies" when I was criss-crossing the rockies in
Colorado at 
>high-elevation this summer? I did not see one of you in three weeks. You
missed a 
>great experience that money can not buy. I purchased the Rover I used on
that trip 
>for $2600 from the original owner, and I poured much labor and a few thousand 
>dollars of parts into completely checking it out. The only problems I
encountered 
>on the whole trip were vapor lock and a loose wire, which I solved myself,
but I 
>was prepared to handle much more. I'll never appreciate how people can drive 
>vehicles that they do not understand mechanically, or that they do not
respect. 
>Even if I could afford a $30,000+ Rover,(my student loans far exceed that!)
I think 
>I would prefer an old Series because of its honesty and utilitarian beauty.
I would 
>consider a D90 only because it reminds me of the Series models, in truth.
>Most people at this point would apologize for taking up so much "bandwidth," 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
>Tipp City, Ohio (Mid-West Berkeley)
>Multiple Series Owner 

------------------------------

From: iharper@afm.org
Subject: Wanted
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 95 01:19:52 EST

Does anyone know of any Series Rovers for sale in Eastern Canada/Maine as 
I will be there in January, and am always in the market for another !!!!

Ian Harper 519-273-7771

iharper@afm.org

---
 This copy of Freddie 1.2.5 is being evaluated.

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