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Date: 13 Oct 95 03:55:12 EDT
From: Leslie Stutsman <100042.254@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Bat Fastards

No I agree with you Dixon.  All I was saying is that for Bearmach, LR
supermarket are asking a premium (by English standards) price and often make you
believe you are getting genuine purely by their own ignorance of their stock.  I
have bought parts from them at "genuine" prices, only to find it is secondary
market parts, and sometimes not even as good a quality as Bearmach.  And this is
from someone who (use) to do high volume with them because of proximity .

Bearmach is probably the best aftermarket around actually, but it still does not
quite fit right some of the time.  Classic example is door tops.  But a little
this and a little that and presto... it fits.  Nothing that we aren't use to
anyhow!  We use a lot of aftermarket for those who are trying to keep the costs
down a bit.  I often feel Bearmach is the best choice for value, as much of the
genuine stuff is so highly priced and doesn't always fit well either!  Ahhh the
joy of Land Rovers....

So you had fun at the rally?  Bay State Rally ws a blast, even if there was an
huge abundance of new vehicles and only 6 or so oldies.  

Cheers

Leslie

'56 Series I 86" Trialer     "Big Bird"
'58 Series II 88"              "Scouser"
'69 Series IIa 109 5 door   "Cheez burger"  in paradise

For Sale
'62 Series IIa 109 regular  "Everton"
'65 Series IIa Military 88"  "Cedrych"

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 04:00:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Disco Review

Janine..

At first, I wasn't going to bother to reply to your letter. I don't own a
Discovery, so I really couldn't give you any feedback as to the vehicle. But
as I thought about the Consumer Reports drivel you quoted I began to wonder
exactly how a bunch of yahoos in white coats can influence the public the
way they do and Oh-My-Gosh how did we ever get along without them. 

No, I don't drive a Discovery. My daily driver (faithful companion, play
toy, work horse and occasional sleeping accomodations) is a 1965 Ser IIa
Land Rover. Most of my close friends own Land Rovers that are 25 years old
or older. That's the interesting thing about Land Rovers... they last a very
long time.

So first, just why did you consider the Discovery? It sounds as if you
really want a car, not a truck. Face it, the Disco is basically a fancy
truck. All Land-Rovers are trucks.. even the Range Rover. The Range Rover
started out as a vehicle that could be hosed out after a hard day of work on
the farm. 

As to your letter....
 
>  Now I have read this report in Consumer Reports that stated during
>  testing it had this problem, "The Discovery offers a relatively 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>  a V8 that manages to combine anemic acdeleration with miserable fuel
>  economy."

Do you need four wheel drive? Will you be doing any off-roading? The awkward
driving position is only awkward if you're expecting to be in a car. Anemic
acceleration? Remember, you're hauling a LOT of weight around. 
 
>  "The four-speed auto transmission dosen't downshift readily, and the 
>   shift lever is stiff."

I dunno... Do they come with a standard tranny. Much better deal for driving
IMHO.
 
>  "The steering feels a bit vague and slow in tight bends."

Sounds like a Rover to me...  :)

>  "The Disco stopped reasonably well from 60 mph on a dry track, but
>   it need 202 feet to stop on a wet track-among the worst performances
>   we've measured in years, and truly surprising in a vehicle with anti-
>   lock breaks."

Haven't a clue. The nice thing to remember is that when you're zooming down
the freeway in the rain and some yahoo in a Honda slams on his brakes in
front of you, that Disco will just run right over the top of the Honda.

>  "Uneven pavement makes it rock incessantly."

So...

>  "The driveline whines audibly except on the highway, where tire hum
>   and wind noise drown it out."

Sounds like a Rover! Turn the radio up louder. :)

>  "The pedals are too close to the seat and too far left."
>  "The front seats feel lumpy and a bit too firm."
>  "The seat lacks side support."

Purely subjective.

>  "The power-window switches, on the center console, are illogically
>   arranged and awkward to reach."

And typically British.

>  "The rear 3-point safety belts are hard to buckle, and the shoulder 
>   portion rides on the neck of some occupants."

At least half of the cars I've driven have had those problems. American and
foreign. It's a case of one size fits most.

>   Well, I can say that it did not get very good reviews.  This is a list
>   of the other vehicles they tested and it is in order of their best
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
>   6. Land Rover Discovery
>   7. Mitsubishi Montero
>   8. Honda Passport (Isuzu Rodeo)

How many of those will still be running in 20 years? Or even 5 years for
that matter.
 
>   *PLEASE*  I want feedback.  I am especially concerned with the stopping
>   on wet pavement 202 feet!  I just returned from England and Scotland
>   and saw tons of Disco's everywhere.  Most notable were the sightings
>   in Edinburgh, they were everywhere... even used as airport vehicles.

Duh... they build them over there. They are as common there as Fords and
Chevy's are here. 

OK.. maybe I'm being a bit sarcastic. But I'm biased. I've owned Rovers for
about eight years - and other British cars since 1973. If I had enough spare
change to buy a Disco, I certainly would. I've talked to Discovery owners
and they all love them. Sure, everyone has something to complain about, but
they wouldn't trade them for anything else.

So, again I ask... Why did you consider the Discovery? Look, you really
don't want any of that other garbage. Get the Disco and have a good long
love affair with it!

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 725-1859                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078      -USA-   1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol ("Sidney")      
              7          1972 Ser III 88 Petrol ("Fern")
           #:-}>         1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol (Parts is Parts)

------------------------------

From: J.M.Steel@iti.salford.ac.uk
Date: 13 Oct 95 11:39
Subject: Introduction and help

Hi, I've been watching this list for a while now and thought it's about time I
introducted myself (and I've got a bit of a problem which someone might be able
to help with).  My dad and I have recently bought a 1970 IIA (Diesel) which is
in pretty good condition after 3 months of work on it apart from the engine.
Starting up is fine and accelerating hard is fine, but just cruising alon at
any speen and not putting the engine under any pressure seems to make it miss
quite badly.  It's like driving down a VERY bumpy road all the time.  I asked a
local mechanic and he thought it might be the timing, but another said if it
started OK it wasn't that.  I tried using some of that Injector cleaner stuff
you put in the fuel, but that hasn't done much (is it any good?).
Does anyone have any ideas.  It's probably something quite simple, but me being
new to this, I haven't got a clue!

Cheers
James Steel

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Disco Review
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 12:03:08 BST

Janine.....
Just add a little to what Mike sayeth.
*Any* 4X4 is going to handle differently to a normal car.On
road,that is.The advantage you get is a higher driving position,
which,it has been said over here,is worth about ten BHP in urban
traffic because you can see a gap much further away than the car
driver,so you dont have to "go for it" at short notice.
As to the Disco,yes they are indeed popular over here,and if the
braking prorties were *that* bad,considering our roads(which you've
seen)they wouldnt be!
Something else to consider.Land Rover are the only manufacturer in
the world that make 4X4 vehicles *and nothing else*.Whilst that
doesnt mean there is no room for improvement,it does mean you are
driving the result of nearly fifty years experience in the field.
Sometimes literally!Almost anything other makers introduce on their
4X4 vehicles,iether Land Rover already has,or,if not,they have tried
it years ago and decided it wasnt an improvement,and dropped it.
It is widely held that the 100" chassis is the finest off-road chassis
it is possible to get,and furthermore that chassis has been around for
25 years in one form or another.And that's the chassis the Disco sits on.
I hasten to add,that like Mike,I dont have a Disco.I have a 25 year old
S11A 88" 2.25 diesel,and nothing else.Suffice it to say that I've kept
this car longer already than any other I've ever owned.Its bodged,patched,
repatched,battered,and a right scruffy mess,but I wont part with it until
the guvmint makes me(there are a lot of funny romours about over here at
the moment).
So,biased though I am,I reckon if you want a 4X4,dont try and justify it,
it never works,get one.But I think you'll find you are happier with a
Land Rover product than you will be with anything built in the land of
the rising sun.Who,themselves,incidentally,sell the Disco domestically
under the Honda badge!and if that isnt a recommendation,I dont know
what is!
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: Danny Phillips <danny@tlpgate.lonpar.co.uk>
Subject: Disco
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 13:15:52 BST

To the chap thinking of buying a disco, we have more than our fair share of rain here in the uk, and my disco even without anti lock brakes, doesn't need 
anywhere near 202 feet to stop in the wet, in fact because she has discs all round i have out braked other sports models on the road, i have on several 
occasions had golf and bmws stuck up my backside because i could stop fatser
than them, and they let me know it, with lights and horn, christ i was in 
front.

yes the switches are in an awkward position, but a lot of manufacturers in 
europe are locating windows switches in the centre after a little girl died a 
few years back in fiat twhen she trod on the switch on the door armrest and 
trapped her head.

seats, sounds like he must have recaros in everything else. as for the rest of
the driving position, i would say that whilst we don't do your sort of milage
all the time I have done over 800 miles in one and regularly do a 300 round
trip and even my vw golf gti's made my back ache the disco doesn't.

i have the deisal so can't comment on acceleration (don't have any <G>) but it
sounds like the guy had a downer on the car, i can't believe he put the izuzu
trooper so low either, its better than any mitz or toy otter offering, in fact
its the best of the jap jobs.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 07:36:39 EDT
From: (Tom Rowe) <trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Discovery specs (& Rover sighting)

On Thu, 12 Oct 1995 21:45:11 -0700 Bob Watson wrote:

Snip

>I guess you really can say that the G.C., Explorer and Rodeo are 
>"lightweights!"

Bob,
As the owner of a *real* Lightweight, I resent the above statement.
;-)

on sightings,
Champion spark plugs as an ad in the Latest "Peterson's 4 Wheel & Off
Road" using what appears to be a Series I in the backgroud.

I meant to mention this long ago, but Cheyene Software ran a contest
this summer for computer resellers that had as grand prize a Defender
90. I don't know who won. And I'm ashamed to say I forgot to enter it.
):-(
Of course, I never win those things when I do enter.

Tom Rowe
UW Center for Dairy Research
Madison, WI 53706	| Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
wk 608-265-6194	| in places even more inaccessible
hm 608-243-8660

------------------------------

From: Al Richer <richer@village.com>
Subject: The reports of my demise are exaggerated...
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:43:13 -0400 (EDT)

 My mail at Lotus is out again.....sigh.

If anybody's looking for me, try richer@village.com. Also, the
obligatory Rover question:

Can you deal with a bad steering-box bottom
gasket without removing the box from the car and
completely disassembling it? If I have to pull it
I'm going to put in a Series III box I have...

			alan"Lost in cyberspace again..."

------------------------------

From: kleihors@natlab.research.philips.com
Subject: moral
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 14:48:31 MET

Hi guys,

some guy at work that keeps buggering me to cross a large pond at 
the premises over here send me this. I don't know where he got it,
but maybe you'll like it:

 
An elephant was wandering through the jungle one day when he
heard squealing noises coming from a well-known quicksand pit. So
he rushed over to the pit and in the pit he saw a mouse who was
caught in the quicksand and who was shouting: "Help! Help! Save
me!"
 
The elephant responded: "Hang on Mr Mouse, I'll save you!" and he
threw his enormous penis out to the mouse and said, "Grab on, Mr
Mouse, I'll drag you out" and so he dragged the mouse out of the
quicksand and saved his life, for which the mouse was very
grateful and said, "If ever you are in trouble, I'll help you!"
the elephant nodded disbelievingly and wandered off again.
 
Many months later, the mouse was strolling through the jungle
when he heard a very loud, deep, shouting coming from a quicksand
pit.  So he ran over to the pit and in it he saw the elephant
drowning in the quicksand shouting: "Help! Help! Save me!"
the mouse yelled out to the elephant: "Hang on Mr Elephant! I'll
save you!" and he scuttled off into the bushes. A few seconds
later, with an sick roar, an ugly gray  old Landrover came
screaming to a halt in the clearing and the mouse jumped out from
behind the driver's seat, tied a rope to the Landrover and trowed
the other end of the rope to the elephant and dragged him out of
the quicksand.
 
The moral of the story is that if you have a Landrover, you
don't need a big penis.

Richard P. Kleihorst, Eindhoven, the Netherlands.
'63 LWB SW, '60 SWB.

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: PLease pass on... (fwd)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 14:56:18 BST

Forwarded message:
>From A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk Fri Oct 13 12:03 BST 1995
From: Andrew Grafton <A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: PLease pass on...
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 12:03:51 BST
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0 (LUT)]

Dear All,

Just a quick note via Mike to say a huge thanks to all those
who helped with our Landrover problems.  I have signed off the
list now as we begin our trip down to South Africa on Wednesday.

I will get back in touch one way or another and relate our experiences
for future info...

Particular thanks to Stefan, Charlie, Alan Richer and Mike for all their
encouragement and information.  Invaluable is the word.

South African list members, look out for two (by then) shoddy SIIIs
in the Somerset West area!

All the best,

Andy
A.J.Grafton(no longer@)lut.ac.uk

P.S. Stefan - we're going round Sudan now...
 

------------------------------

From: "David McKain" <MCKAIN@cemr.wvu.edu>
Date:          Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:10:44 EDT
Subject:       88 Springs

Just thought I'd bounce this off the list. I visited a local spring 
shop due to the increasingly apparent "sag" in the back of my LR. I 
removed the springs (PO replaced proper bushings with solid metal but 
thats another story) and took them in to see if
1) they could be re-arched and tempered
2) if not, add a few leafs and live with it
3) manufacture a new set from scrap or
4) purchase new springs
Due to the sorry state of the metal the first two options were moot, 
and upon discussing newer, thicker spring material, I found out that 
LR's had so many leaves because the spring steel was a lot thinner 
and the spring length was shorter compared to newer vehicles. Option 
three was tossed because no other vehicle would have anything close 
to a LR (american). That left open option 4, which I was avoiding 
because RN advertised new rear spring sets for $155 a piece not 
including extraneous hardware and U-bolts. Luckily, he had a listing 
and said I could get them complete with bushing, U-bolts, shipping 
and everything for $350. In addition to saving a few bucks in 
shipping (40 lbs a piece) I'm helping to support the local economy 
instead of that of Essex Jct., Vermont.
 I'm getting pretty exited about the "new car ride" after I put on 
the new springs.

David McKain
1966 SIIa Petrol
mckain@cemr.wvu.edu
(304) 599-0120
Morgantown, WV
USA                     

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:03:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: West Coast Challenge

On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Andre Maier wrote:

> also in the new issue of LRO the article on the rocky mountain rovers,the
> writer of the article should do some more research before the statments
> about the availability of Landy's and parts are mentioned concerning the
> rest of Canada.The writer is totally wrong.

	LRO: "The scaricity of Land Rovers in Canada means parts 
	      availability is not as good as for other off-roaders"

	Slightly true.  There are not thousands of dealerships like Ford
	et al at every street corner to saunter into and get parts.  Canadian
	Tire doesn't have fiche for the Land Rover.  However, RN, ABP, BP,
	the UK basied suppliers are a phone call/fax away and there is
	FedEx and the Post Office.  Alternatively, for many parts, if you
	know what you are talking about, parts are available at Canadian
	Tire because of the interchangable nature of so many with other
	Brtish cars.  I also note that despite parts availability problems,
	they are bringing in large shipments of parts (from England actually
	in fairly large quantities)

	LRO: "There would have been seven Land Rovers following a Range
	      Rover up the mountainside - a considerable gathering by
	      Canadian standards"

	Hmmm...  The Toronto "Rovers at Rovers", a one day event with no 
	off-road, but a treausre hunts etc. gathered in 12 Land Rovers
	last month.  The Ottawa Valley "Birthday Party" netted nearly 40
	Land Rovers.  There were a dozen OVLR members & Rovers at the
	British Invasion in Stowe Vermont last month.  Seven is significant?
	My, my, these boys better not stop by the OVLR Frame Oiler tomorrow.
	In fact, I should drive by my horde south of Ottawa.  That makes
	eight Land Rovers in one place, more if Dale & some others
	stop by.  A very significant gathering!  :-)  Wonder what the
	author would have thought about Sandy's wee effort in Buckingham
	County Virginia the other week, or the Downeast!  <hic>

	Neat to finally see what Malcolm's Range Rover looked like after the
	roll...  He was not in the best of shape for weeks afterwards...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 10:06:09 EDT
From: tdj@fore.com (Tom Des Jardins)
Subject: You can have our disco when you pry it from our cold wet dead hands!

> I am close to buying a new Disco after much research.  Up until
> this time everything I read confirmed that it is a good vehicle
> with bad fuel economy.  In addition, I have been a bit concerned
> about slugishness in acceleration but I was willing to deal with
> that.

I have had my disco for 7 + months now and am extremly happy with it.  My
wife drives it a lot with our two kids as I refused to buy a minvan.  Our
research said what you already know, " blah blah blah Best off -road blah
blah blah, but the explorer is ..."

Basically, we love our disco and are quite happy that we bought it.  I hate
to think that I am agreeing with someone from Cisco, but ...  This is a
real 4wd vehicle.  While the disco has been given some car-like panache,
it's soul is in the mud.

> Now I have read this report in Consumer Reports that stated during
> testing it had this problem, "The Discovery offers a relatively
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
> a V8 that manages to combine anemic acdeleration with miserable fuel
> economy."

We haven't noticed bad stopping, and our's has better acceleration than the
explorers my wife parents have.

> These are some more low lights it mentioned:
> "The four-speed auto transmission dosen't downshift readily, and the
>  shift lever is stiff."
> in our off-road tests.  But it's cursed with difficult access, an
> that.

Didn't notice this.

> "The steering feels a bit vague and slow in tight bends."
> "The four-speed auto transmission dosen't downshift readily, and the

Duh, gee Tennesse, it's not a sports car.  Works fine for us.

> "The Disco stopped reasonably well from 60 mph on a dry track, but
>  it need 202 feet to stop on a wet track-among the worst performances
>  we've measured in years, and truly surprising in a vehicle with anti-
>  lock breaks."
> that.

Did they press the right pedal?  As I mentioned above, we didn't notice this.

> "Uneven pavement makes it rock incessantly."
>  it need 202 feet to stop on a wet track-among the worst performances

Well, you don't get high ground clearance & great 4wd ability for free.

> "The driveline whines audibly except on the highway, where tire hum
>  and wind noise drown it out."
>  we've measured in years, and truly surprising in a vehicle with anti-
>  lock breaks."

Gee. I hope they don't buy it!  Then I can laugh at all the stuck Explorer
owners.  :-)

> "The pedals are too close to the seat and too far left."

I do find the seat less comfortable than the seat in the Toyota Land
Cruiser, but I take long trips all the time & I don't mind it.  My wife
actually likes it better & she drives it most.

> "The front seats feel lumpy and a bit too firm."
> "The seat lacks side support."
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> "The power-window switches, on the center console, are illogically
>  arranged and awkward to reach."

Humm, well, they are illogically arranged.

> "The rear 3-point safety belts are hard to buckle, and the shoulder
>  portion rides on the neck of some occupants."
>  we've measured in years, and truly surprising in a vehicle with anti-
>  lock breaks."

No problems for us.

>  Well, I can say that it did not get very good reviews.  This is a list
>  of the other vehicles they tested and it is in order of their best
>  to worst overall scores.
>  1. Ford Explorer Limited (recommended model)
> that.

I hated this car & have driven it extensively.  (my wifes parenst have
several Explorers)

>  2. Toyota Land Cruiser (recommended model)

It was huge, but nice.  In the end it simply didn't seem like it had good
4wd comparatively.

>  3. Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited V8

Everyone here @ work has them, the rover can blow them away, so many people
at work are now buying the rovers.  (Well, except for one of our founders
who has a hummer)  :-)

>  4. Chevrolet Blazer LT

No opinion

>  5. Isuzu Trooper (recommended model)

Not V8 as I recall

>  6. Land Rover Discovery

:-)

>  7. Mitsubishi Montero
>  8. Honda Passport (Isuzu Rodeo)
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
>  Janine
>  morison@alumni.cco.caltech.edu

You can have our disco when you pry it from our cold wet dead hands!  We
love it.

I have been unable to get it stuck.  It 4wheels awesomely, the kids love
it.  We have the jump seats and find them great for transporting a crowd.
(The kids love the jump seats, adults find them a bit cramped)  The
seperate heating & stuff is cool.

If handeling is really what you want, buy a minivan.  You'll be happier.
If you want a very good 4wd to haul the family around, well, this is a very
good choice, cheaper & more creature comforts than a hummer, cheaper & more
4 wheely than a land cruiser, much better than an explorer etc.

ttfn

Tom Des Jardins
FORE Systems (412)635-3374  FAX 772-6500 url http://www.fore.com
Please note new phone number.  I am now at the McKnight road facility.

------------------------------

From: Daniel Grambihler <danielg@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: '96 Hardtop D90
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 07:15:37 -0800 (PST)

In regards to my previous posting about the HT being riveted to the
body:

Oops! Sorry. I went to the dealer yesterday (to pick up my D90 GRIN! GRIN!
GRIN!) and while I was waiting for the finance people (I was amazed by how
long it took to give them some money) I checked out a '94 SW & asked about
the '95 SW (again). Bottom line: the HT is bolted to the frame just like
you would expect. Guess I should verify things before repeating them. 
Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.

Dixon: thanks for the correction(s). Maybe I'll just stick to answering
posts about C, or something else I actually know about. :-)

Didn't get out of the dealer until 6:30 so I haven't put any "desert
pinstripes" on it (not sure if it's a her/him yet) - definitely this
weekend!

Gotta go - need to make many for these payments!

- Daniel

-- 
Daniel Grambihler
danielg@eskimo.com
GAT !d(--) -p+/-- c++++/--- l++ u++/- e+ m/+/++@ s-/ n--- h+ f* g-/+
    w+ t+ r y++/--/**

'95 D90 (Colossus?)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:21:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Discovery specs

On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Robert Watson (CNA) wrote:

> Vehicle 		Gross Wt. 	Payload
> -----------------	---------	-------
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
> Ford Explorer	 	 4,700	 	1,050
> Isuzu	Rodeo		 4,900	   	  955
> Jeep Wrangler		 3,880	   	  800

  LR IIA 88 basic	 2,953		1,000 (+ driver & 2 passengers)
  LR IIA 88 StnWgn       3,281            100 (+ 7 persons)
  LR IIA 109 basic       3,301	 	2,000 (+ driver & 2 passengers)
  LR IIA 109 StnWgn      3,752		  400 (+ 10 persons!)
  LR IIB 109 FC          4,200		3,380 (+ 2 persons)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 07:26:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John C. White III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Disco review: Consumer Report Aug 95

I own a Discovery, and love it.  It's been my experience that Consumer 
Reports has exactly the opposite opinion and experience from me every 
time I consult them.

Anyway, let me tell you my experiences with the Consumer Reports' complaints.

"The four-speed auto transmission..."
   Can't help you there.  Mine's got a manual, which of course means that 
   smoothness of the shift is in the skill of the driver.

"The steering feels a bit vague and slow in tight bends."
   I'm not sure what they mean by "vague."  It's as good as most sedans, 
   and corners much, much better than I expected it to.  I live in northern
   California, and have driven some of the more twisty, spectacular stretches
   of Highway 1 (Pacific Coast Highway).  My Disco will take the curves 
   at higher speed than that "recommended" by the California Dept. of
   Transportation, better in fact than a lot of cars I've driven.

"The Disco stopped reasonably well from 60 mph on a dry track..."
   I've driven mine on rain-slick highways, and haven't a clue what CR is 
   talking about.

 "Uneven pavement makes it rock incessantly."
   It rides differently from other 4WDs, but I don't find this a 
   problem.  The suspension does yeoman's service off road.

 "The driveline whines audibly except on the highway, where tire hum
  and wind noise drown it out."
   Yep, but it's got a decent stereo that does a good job of drowning it out.
   There's a lot of stuff spinning around down there.  It's gonna make noise.

 "The pedals are too close to the seat and too far left."
   What?!?  I'm 5'11" and don't have this problem.  Too far left?  Didn't 
   feel that way to me when I first drove it off the lot.  Doesn't feel that
   way to me now.  I'd imagine the engineers at CR may not be taking into
   account the uncomfortable feeling one gets when driving any unfamiliar
   car.  I've taken my Disco on an 11-day, 13-state trip (6,500 miles) 
   this summer, and found it very comfortable.

 "The front seats feel lumpy and a bit too firm."
 "The seat lacks side support."
   Oy!  Maybe Consumer's Reports would like some cheese with all that whine.
   But seriously, see my response about the pedals.

"The power-window switches, on the center console, are illogically
  arranged and awkward to reach."
   At first, but that's true for any car.  You get used to it.

 "The rear 3-point safety belts are hard to buckle, and the shoulder
  portion rides on the neck of some occupants."
   I've never ridden in the back of mine or one of my model year (1995) so
   I can't say.  I did ride in a '92 Discovery on a trip to the Middle 
   East and don't remember being uncomfortable.  This sounds like it might
   be a problem for children and short people. 

Anyway, my recommendation would be to test drive all of the vehicles in the
report that you're interested in, and picture yourself driving each one 
day in and day out.  Then, decide.

Cheers!
John
'95 Discovery (Love it!)
San Francisco, California

On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Dark Dream Mists wrote:

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 71 lines)]
>   a region where it rains all the time?
>   Janine
>   morison@alumni.cco.caltech.edu

------------------------------

From: Grahame.Harden@BRI.NRC.CA
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 10:40:01 -0400
Subject: British Bits...

The last word on the Robin...

The Robin was a rear wheel drive entity, in the form that I
used to drive. Quite sweet, except the engine (747cc) could only
be got at through a hole no larger than a toilet seat. Pretty
similar concept to the Landrover.... rust-free body on a very
sturdy chassis. Remember that the Reliant people later came up
with the SS1. The Bond Bug was a small concern, using a range
of engines from Villiers (m/cycle) to Reliant to Hillman Imp.
No-one could (in the 60's) complain that the British vehicle
industry was not innovative. The car driving public at that time
were knowledgeable, expecting vehicle ownership to be 'hands-on'
affair. Now the whole thing has developed into a situation where
owning and buying (and running) a car is similar to deciding
which washing machine to buy, in which colour.

The die-hards continue to drive interactive vehicles, my Hillman
Imps are becoming very rare, my SIII diesel a Euro-Law fugative.
As we all know, the old SI-III have so much British 'character'
it's difficult to consider a moulded 4WD. I know of few other
'new' vehicles that I could rely upon to haul kayaks across
Iceland.... 

If I stay any longer in Quebec, my demanding wife (SIII) will
be crated and shipped over, it's almost worth it just to see
the faces of the Customs people (!).

Grahame

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 07:50:03 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: LRO

The Izusu Rodeo looks like a nice vehicle (though nowhere near the 
capabilities of a LR), and sells for something like $16K.  The Toyota 
Forerunner is in the 20's  ($22K and up). 

Take a look at the Ford Explorer and all will be clear.  Starts at around 
$16K or so.  The Disco starts at $30K.  You get what you pay for.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 07:50:22 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: News from the trans-Africa team

> But they are having a RAVE. 

WAaaahhh!  I wanna go to Africa!  

Okay, that's it.  Who wants to get together to organize a 50th anniversary 
trip for '97?  We can get sponsors, film/photo the whole deal, write a book 
about it, etc.  Anyone interested?  

I think the ideal vehicles would be early SII 109" 2 doors.  Why?  Well, 
lotsa reasons, but mostly 'cause that's what I gots.  Consider also though, 
that it means internal living arrangements are possible, more storage space 
(parts?), ease of repair, plenty of parts, and can carry additional 
passengers in case a vehicle must be abandoned.  (My bed converts to a couch 
that could carry 3-4 people reasonably comfortably in a pinch.)

My biggest obstacle is financial commitments.  (My parent's house mortgage.) 
 If I can get past that, I'm there.

Anyway, I'm going to ruminate on this a while...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 95 11:03:02 EDT
From: Mark Talbot <71035.3215@compuserve.com>
Subject: LR Supermarket parts

All, 

I found the thread about Bat Fastards and LR Supermarket very interesting. I
have know experience with BATs, but I will come to the defence of the LR
Supermarket . I have ordered parts from them mover the years and have had now
problems what so ever. I have found the quailty of the parts very good. I have
asked and received Genuine parts when requested. They may not be Genuine, but in
some cases how can you justify the cost of some genuine parts ! Just compare
door seals for Series Land Rovers !!!!!

I understand that the OVLR use the Supermarket for their bulk purchases, or used
too ! That's good enough for me.  One other thing, service, I ordered parts from
Paddock for my 109 back in Aug, they have still not arrived yet ! With the
Supermarket I have never had to call to follow up and the order is normally here
in less than a week. 

You have to understand that in the UK there is a growing market for aftermarket
parts, there are a huge number of companies specialising in Land Rover parts to
cash in on the boom in the product. 

If you wish to pay the overpriced genuine parts from Roves North then that is
your choice. In some cases genuine is the way to go, in others, the aftermarket
will surfice ! 

Pay as your money, you take as your choice. 

Mark 

------------------------------

Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:55:00 -0400 
From: "christian (c.j.) szpilfogel" <chrisz@bnr.ca>
Subject:  re:Consumer Reports on Discovery 

Very fine points by all once the emotion has been filtered. Please
don't be offended by those comments; LRO's tend to be as frank as
their vehicles :-)

As with any data provided, evaluate them from your own point of
view and relative importance. As you test-drive these vehicles
(and note that most of the comments were comfort related) figure
out which one brings a big grin to your face.

If I were not off-roading I likely would have gone with an on-road
comfort vehicle. Most of the so called feature nagatives in CR are
general pluses in an off-road environment.

One comment that seemed interesting was that the 4spd AT takes a
while to gear down. I've never seen another vehicle do this but
I would guess it to be an off-roading feature to avoid unwanted
gear changes in slippery terrain. Does anyone know this for a fact?

One thing not mentioned in CR was the expected longevity of the
vehicle; in particular the body and frame. In the snow belt where
salt is serious stuff, this item is important. Since the Discovery
has a nice heavy frame (14G) and Aluminum body panels I expect it
to far outlast the other vehicles. This I find helps to offset the
costs (Worked with my wife :-)). I take good care of my autos
and they always rust out before the engine weakens.

Cheers,

  -Christian
   '95 Discovery
----------------
Christian Szpilfogel
Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
chrisz@bnr.ca

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Het Shields and Vapour Lock or is it?
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 11:25:00 DST

I too suffer with the " vapour lock"  problem on Miss Golightly (Single 
choke Weber) and have come up with this theory and solution.

The symptom is most prevalent after stopping for a few minutes with a hot 
engine. There is a reluctance to start and then after starting and moving 
off the engine will stall quite readily. Further attempts to restart result 
in large volumes of black smoke and after a few seconds all settles down and 
is well.

My theory is that the problem is not vapour lock as such but the fuel in the 
float chamber "boiling" due to the heat which has come from the manifold. 
When running of course the continuous fuel flow cools the float chamber. The 
boiling of the fuel causes a reduction in its density (because of the vapour 
bubbles) and the float sinks allowing more fuel into the chamber and raising 
the level above the main jet. This in turn causes flooding and stalling.

The solution is to cool the float chamber so the fuel doesn't boil. On the 
way to the Mid Atlantic Rally I had the above flash of inspiration and 
effected a simply cooling system by rerouting the screen washer to spray 
onto the float chamber. When stopping apply a short spray to provide some 
cooling then before restarting do the same  and wait a short moment for the 
water to evapoate and cool the chamber, This appeared to work, Miss G 
experiencing no more stalling so long as I remembered the stopping and 
starting procedure.

The next mod will be a heat pipe and cooling fins to take away excess heat 
from the float chamber.

Trevor "Mad Inventor" Easton
Yes Uncle Roger, you're right about the pleasure.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:35:01 +0000
From: RMILLER@Middlebury.edu (Raoul Miller)
Subject: Re: Consumer Reports Disco drivel

I recall reading in CR that the Toyota 4runner was a a worse 4 x 4 than the
Explorer because the former was too high off the ground and therefore
"might be difficult for a woman in a short or tight skirt to get into".  I
think that sums up the Explorer and its potential owners very nicely.
        When CR tested mountain bikes, one of their most important tests
was how far the bike would freewheel down a hill - needless to say the
heaviest bike won (as all in the price range use the same hubs).  Perhaps
if they had included this test in their SUV analysis then the Disco and
LandCruiser would have topped out!
        The only comment I would agree with would be about the rear seat
access and that is not particularly awkward - just unusual and you get used
to it.  The front seats are excellent, in my opinion.
        I think CR is an excellent source for info on dishwashers and TVs
but ignore it completely on car and bicycle matters.
        Cheers, Raoul Miller

------------------------------

From: Malcolm956@aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:41:31 -0400
Subject: 4WD payloads

I would like to carry Bob Watson's comments on payloads one step further.  If
you show Payload as a per cent of Gross weight, there are changes in
rankings.  The Defender goes to the top of the list, but essentially the it
and the Hummer are together in a class of their own when it comes to carrying
weight at about 40% of gross.  

All of the others trail down from a bit under 30% (Disco) to just under 20%
(Isuzu Rodeo).  I suppose a choice could be made on the basis of either how
much absolute weight can be carried or how efficiently is the vehicle
designed to carry the weight.  

By the way, does anybody know the gross and payload of an 88"  SIIa?  Or any
other oldies like CJ's, Broncos, IH?

================
(Comma delimited table)
Vehicle, Gross Wt., Payload, % pay/gross 
L.R. Def 90, 6003, 2443, 41%
Hummer, 10300, 4100, 40%
L.R. Discovery, 6019, 1640, 27%
Chev. Tahoe, 6800, 1666, 24%
Isuzu Tooper, 5500, 1290, 24%
Chev. Blazer, 5300, 1229, 23%
Ford Explorer, 4700, 1050, 22%
Jeep G. Cherokee, 5300, 1150, 22%
Jeep Wrangler, 3880, 800, 21%
Isuzu Rodeo, 4900, 955, 20%
Average, 58702, 16323, 28%
================

Malcolm

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 95 11:49:31 EDT
From: Robert Dennis <73363.427@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re Disco Braking

Regarding the 202' needed to stop:

    I have a 1990RR and have noticed on several occasions problems with the ABS
system. In Atlanta, where the roads are constantly under repair, they cover
holes in the roadway with large 4'x8' steel plates that become extremely slick
in the rain. If I am braking and a tire hits one of these plates, it will lock
up and cause the ABS system to back off the other three wheels. I can only
assume that Lucas designed this ABS system since, once the ABS starts to adjust
the braking, I might as well be using the Fred Flintstone method of braking. I
quickly realized that releasing and reapplying the brakes would reset the
system and braking would be back to normal. I have become so accustom to
re-braking that I had forgotten about it until I saw this figure. I don't know
if the same system is in use on the Disco, but I could easily see it taking
200+' for the ABS system to recover, depending on the road conditions. (I don't
know what CR uses for testing) I imagine that the system is trying to apply
braking equally between all four wheels and with the one on such a slick
surface, none get any braking. I have driven other cars that have ABS systems
and have not noticed this, are there any other Rover owners that have
experience this?

    By the way, anyone know how to disable the ABS system on a '90RR. I have
always hated ABS brakes and the combination of Lucas and ABS could be lethal!
 Rob Dennis
 Atlanta, GA USA
 73363.427@Compuserve.com
 13-Oct-1995

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:54:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: LR Supermarket parts

On 13 Oct 1995, Mark Talbot wrote:

> I understand that the OVLR use the Supermarket for their bulk purchases, 
> or used too ! 

	OVLR has also gone straight to the Merseysides supplier Bearmach for
	some of the larger orders.  There is about a metric tonne on the
	way from the later right now.  Mostly springs etc.

	From hearsay:  Craddock - Hvae a habit of playing fast and loose with
				  prices, shipping charges & timing.
		       Paddock  - Can be good, but get a lot of parts wrong
		       Famous 4 - No problems ever heard with them
		       DLS      - No experience known...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:56:53 +0000
From: RMILLER@Middlebury.edu (Raoul Miller)
Subject: Re: Disco review

On reading the rest of the Disco thread - I have to agree with the original
poster on the issue of gas mileage.  Those of us in North America (some of
us in exile) are woefully served by LRNA in our choice of engines.  I could
not buy a vehicle that gets less than 18 mpg - no matter how long it will
last, how good it is, etc., etc. I think the reason that this is so galling
is because I know there is the same product out there with a strong,
economical engine - it is just that the damned government won't let me
import it.  So I bought a used Toyota 4 runner (26 mpg on highway) as a
stopgap and now I have to work my ass off to acquire a diesel engined LR
that I can also use to get to the Yukon as well as do my fieldwork there.
        Mileage is important in this world, especially when you teach
courses on enrgy issues.  The technology exists and that's what frustrates
me.  Landrover might not sell too many 300TDi equipped models to the Mall
rats but most of the LR vehicles in Europe are diesel equipped.  I am sure
that there must be a market amongst the real users for this powerplant.  By
the way, the salesmen here in Vermont could not even conceive that someone
would not buy a vehicle like the D-90 or Disco because of its poor mileage.
I think they thought I was lying to them because I couldn't afford it!
        Just my thoughts,
                Raoul Miller

One day:  LR 300TDi, on this side of the water!

------------------------------

From: HMEdwards@aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 12:13:34 -0400
Subject: Re: 88 Springs

David McKain wrote:
" Luckily, he had a listing and said I could get them complete with bushing,
U-bolts, shipping and everything for $350. In addition to saving a few bucks
in 
shipping (40 lbs a piece) I'm helping to support the local economy --"

David, If you could get that listing and post it, I could use a new set
myself.  Also the page at www.crl.com could add some more info to help us
all. TIA.

Harry Edwards
72 Ser. III  88"
Las Vegas, NV

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 09:10:21 +0100
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Re: 88 Springs

 David McKain <MCKAIN@cemr.wvu.edu> writes:

>Just thought I'd bounce this off the list. I visited a local spring 
>shop due to the increasingly apparent "sag" in the back of my LR. I 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 22 lines)]
>instead of that of Essex Jct., Vermont.
> I'm getting pretty exited about the "new car ride" after I put on 
>the new springs.

 I'm confused as to what you're saying here.  Are you ordering springs
 for $350 from RN??  Yoy may note that Young's Springs Inc. makes LR
 88 springs with American steel for $130 a piece.  These are superior
 to 'genuine' springs and need to be kept oiled.  Young's Springs and
 other performance aftermarket suppliers are listed on the Land Rover
 Connection WWW page at http://www.crl.com/~cs/rover.html 

 Young's Springs Inc.
 PO Box 726
 277 West Street
 Rutland, VT 05702
 802-733-7237

 Michael Carradine, Architect                          Ph/Fax 510-988-0900
 Carradine Studios, PO Box 494, Walnut Creek, CA 94597 USA    <cs@crl.com>
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 4x4 WWW page at:  http://www.crl.com/~cs/unimog.html

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Disco review: Consumer Report Aug 95
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:13:57 -0700

In Australia we have several 4wd magazines and just about every month
they have comparison tests between Disco/RR and "Toyonissan wankmobiles"
(Ben Elton). The off road part of the test is usually restricted to one 
paragraph that goes something like - "the Disco/RR outperformed
everything off road". They spend pages discussing top speed, acceleration,
stereo systems, trim levels etc, generally bagging the Disco/RR then in
conclusion the reviewer usually states that the Disco/RR would be his
vehicle of choice.

In America, we call this "balanced" reporting :-)

-- Bob W.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Locker installed in '87 RR, now I need steering track rod.

On Thu, 12 Oct 1995 DEBROWN@SRP.GOV wrote:

> weekend, and soon after, while giving it a test run, I bent my steering
> track rod. I was able to bend it back into some resemblance of straightness,
...
> My question is this: Has anyone ever welded a length of angle iron along the
> length of the track rod for strength? I did this once on a '67 Dodge van and
> it worked for many years. (at least until I sold it.)

David-- I bent mine some time ago in Death Valley and have so far simply 
left it bent!! It hangs down in a vulnerable position and is in my view a 
crummy design. Four Wheeler Magazine has to my knowledge bent two of them 
during tests etc. My bent one gives much better clearance, and I have 
checked the alignment to make sure it's ok. No doubt leaving it bent is 
not a good idea for ultimate strength etc, and I am, of course, not 
advocating that anyone else adopt such irresponsible practices as I do.

> Also, while I have your (collective) ear, Where can I get "Old Man Emu"
> suspensions for LR's? How about a catalogue? A phone number? (USA) I have
> the phone # from the LR FAQ for OME in Australia, looking for a more local
> source. (ARB in Seattle?) Jim Jackson, are you "there"?

Yes ARB in Seattle does sell them. I have their brochure at home but 
don't have their number handy right now.

> I'm also interested in locating things like skid plates. No relation to
> bending the track rod. ;-)

The only ones I know of are from Southdown 4X4 in the UK.

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Introduction and help
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 15:08:37 BST

Um,,,,I had this problem,like you '70 11A deisel 88"?
The thing pitched,thumped,crashed about as though
it had no shockers,and the springs were solid.Familiar?
Usually the problem was worse in dry weather than wet,
but I still dont know why.About three weeks ago it got
so bad it scared me,I began to fear for the half shafts.
I found,purely by chance,that the pull-off spring on the
distributor pump had broken.Actually I only looked becuase
the throttle had jammed open......
I rebent the end of the spring and re-attached it.It goes
from the bell-crank pivot down to the throttle"bar" thing
on the pump.Instant cure!Its a different vehicle.
Judging by the state of the spring,it was always weak.
So you may need either a new one(if its not there at all)
or otherwise shorten it a bit.Makes the accelerator a shade
stiff,but you soon get used to it,and the ride is lovely.
Well,all things are relative!
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:16:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Real Trucks

On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Leland J Roys wrote:

> My response to the subscriber asking about the comsumer reports (Sorry I 
> forget the name) is that , if you want a truck that just looks nice in the
> mall parking lot or to go to Tahoe in 2 inches of snow, get a Ford exploreer,
> if you want to really go off-road or do anything serious, get a disco or
> Defender-90. 

ADDENDUM -- If you want both -- get a Range Rover!!

Cheers

John Brabyn
89 RR

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:33:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: 4WD payloads

I'd be interested to know what the Defender 90's payload is in the UK; I 
believe it was artificially increased for the US market to get the gross 
vehicle weight over 6,000 lbs so it would evade various rules and 
regulations??

Cheers

John B

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 10:37:06 -0700
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: series weights

In message <199510131425.JAA15991@butler.uk.stratus.com> Dixon Kenner writes:

>   LR IIA 88 basic	 2,953		1,000 (+ driver & 2 passengers)
;   LR IIA 88 StnWgn       3,281            100 (+ 7 persons)
;   LR IIA 109 basic       3,301	 	2,000 (+ driver & 2 passengers)
>   LR IIA 109 StnWgn      3,752		  400 (+ 10 persons!)
;

Hummm ... I wonder where the 109 stationwagon gets its 450ish extra pounds of 
weight ove the 2 door?

They have the steel door posts for the rear door, a steel frame for the rear 
side doors, the rear seats but it just doesn't seem like 450 pounds worth of 
stuff.  Anyone out there done a comparitive study who knows where all the weight
difference comes from?

TeriAnn
Project 2 Doormobile 

Now I'll have to weigh the Dormobile cabinets!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Disco review: Consumer Report Aug 95

Janine -- I think after reading all the responses to this, the bottom line
is to decide what is important to YOU -- and buy accordingly. If you are
not going to do any off-roading, one of the non-Land Rover products may
well be a better choice. Most of the Land Rover shortcomings on the
pavement are due to the fact that Land Rover is the only company that
takes off-road performance seriously, and that inevitably results in some
compromises at the fuel pump, drag strip, and skid pad. If you don't want
or need fabulous off-road capability, (whether to use or just know you
have it) the advantages of some of the other brands are compelling. 

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 10:35:07 PDT
From: rlarson@lsil.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: '96 Hardtop D90

>From: wilsonhb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Henry B. Wilson)
>Subject: '96 Hardtop D90
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 16 lines)]
>Henry B. Wilson             http://vumclib.mc.vanderbilt.edu/~wilsonhb
>          '59 AHY 100-6                    '94 Disco
>      "The Healey's clean; the Rover's filthy.  Life is perfect."

With respect to lack of responses, sorry, but your's is probably the 1000th
"what should I buy" post I've seen on the list.  I can't recommend any
vehicle as an investment.  The market only goes down, I've seen more D110's
for sale used this year than D90's and can't comprehend what keeps their
prices up.  I'd be interested to know what they actually sell for as opposed
to asking price.  

There seems to be more than enough standard D90s around to satisfy demand.
I'd guess that they'll run only slightly better than other 4x4's
in resale value down the line.   

With respect to D90 hardtops.  I'd guess you'd break even either way.  To 
convert a standard NAS D90 you'll have to buy all the parts individually.
It looks like this means even things like door latches itemized separately 
from outer door panel, from inner door panel.  In the end, cost will depend
on how far you want the conversion to go.  For example would you want the
rear SW seats and roll up door windows or could you live with the bench seat
and sliding windows of the standard NAS D90.  Early rumors suggest that to
obtain a D90 SW you had better run down to the dealer and stand in line.  
Standard D90s go for a fairly big discount that could be applied to 
purchasing top parts.  Since most of the parts, or very similar parts, 
are already in your local dealers list as '93 D110 parts you should be 
able to get very good estimate of conversion cost.

It always comes down to an individual decision.  Only you can decide how
much a vehicle is worth to you.  Only you can list your real/perceived needs. 

I bought my D90 to drive off road.  It has surpassed my every expectation in
that regard.  On the other hand, it is uncomfortable, noisy, uses too much
gas, it takes forever to put up the soft top, and has started to show some 
build quality problems.   I knew all that going in to the dealer and am 
extremely happy I purchased a D90.  Frankly, a NAS spec D90's really can't be
rationalized.  I don't think I've ever made a better purchase.

-Rick
 

Richard Larson
LSI Logic Corporation
(408) 433-7149

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:12:40 -0700
From: russ burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: News from the trans-Africa team

I heard there was going to be some big doings down under for the 50th.
Russ

At 07:50 AM 10/13/95 -0700, you wrote:
>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>> But they are having a RAVE. 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 33 lines)]
>sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
>Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
>San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 14:08:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: 4WD payloads

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, John Brabyn wrote:

> I'd be interested to know what the Defender 90's payload is in the UK; I 
> believe it was artificially increased for the US market to get the gross 
> vehicle weight over 6,000 lbs so it would evade various rules and 
> regulations??

	This is the facinating bit:

 Vehicle 		Gross Wt. 	Payload
 -----------------	---------	-------

  LR IIA 88 basic	 2,953		1,000 (+ driver & 2 passengers)
  LR IIA 88 StnWgn       3,281            100 (+ 7 persons)

  L.R. Def 90		 6,003	        2,443 (WOW!)

	Considering that if you remove the 2.25l iron lump and put in
	a 3.5l aluminium lump engine, the weights of both are supposed to 
	be quite close.  Where is all this extra weight coming from?
	The roll bars shouldn't be that heavy, nor the A/C.  The skin
	is apparantly thinner in the D90 that it was on the IIA.  A 
	couple inches on the frame don't add that much wither.  We are
	trying to find 1,700 pounds plus for the comparison with the
	88 station wagon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 13:33:24 EDT
From: (Tom Rowe) <trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: series weights

On Fri, 13 Oct 95 10:37:06 -0700 TeriAnn asks:

>Hummm ... I wonder where the 109 stationwagon gets its 450ish extra pounds of 
>weight ove the 2 door?

The 2-door regular has the half cab. That full length top on the five
door ain't light. (although I've never actually weighed it)

Tom Rowe
UW Center for Dairy Research
Madison, WI 53706	| Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
wk 608-265-6194	| in places even more inaccessible
hm 608-243-8660

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 14:46:05 -0400
From: nadyne@bccom.com

subscribe Nadyne Nelson
nadyne @bccom.com

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Re Disco Braking
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:05:30 -0700

    I have a 1990RR and have noticed on several occasions problems with the ABS
system. In Atlanta, where the roads are constantly under repair, they cover
holes in the roadway with large 4'x8' steel plates that become extremely slick
in the rain. If I am braking and a tire hits one of these plates, it will lock
up and cause the ABS system to back off the other three wheels.
On my '95 Discovery, I've noticed a similary reaction, though I think it only 
modifies the affected wheel(s). They advertise the new Disco (and other LR's) 
as having 4-channel ABS (i.e. each wheel is controlled independently) as 
compared to the Explorer for example which has 3-channel (2-front and 1 rear) 
meaning if 1 rear tire is skidding, BOTH are modulated.

What I HAVE noticed on wet or dry asphalt is that it doesn't seem to want to 
stop even if the brakes are applied with both feet and no ABS influence. As 
though the brakes are just not quite up to the task. I doubt you could lock up 
the tires (with ABS somehow disabled,of course) judging by this behavior. I 
suppose this is to prevent whiplash stops :-) but it sure has cured me of 
tailgating!

    _____
   /___|_\___     Bob Watson <a-robw@microsoft.com>
  |   |   |  \                  6405 235th Place SW
  |---|___|___\____     Mountlake Terrace, WA 98043
  |  _|   |   | _  }\
 {|_/_ \__|___|/_\_}|    '95 Beluga Black Discovery
    \_/        \_/

------------------------------

Subject: importing vehicles to the US....
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 15:42:50 -0400
From: William Caloccia <caloccia@sw.stratus.com>

Don't quote me, but the scribbles on my note pad, after a couple dozen calls
to Boston and Washington tell me:

Customs wants proof of Ownership and a negligible duty (~3.7%)
	and to fill out a form for the DOT (supposedly not a big deal)

and finding, like, THE customs broker in Boston who would still deal
with vehicles, they told me:

	USDA wants your vehicle steam cleaned (with proof) before they'll
	let it in, and that has been known to hold up your vehicle for
	a week

and the broker put me on to the

	EPA's vehicle import line in washington, DC...  202-233-9660

	Now the _contractor_ there told me that for a PRE-1968 vehicle all
	you need do is fill out a 3520-1 form, and he said it would be
	category R, and that should allow it to pass through customs,
	as long as they think it is of the appropriate age.

	And he also said that for a vehicle a wee bit younger than that,
	like, merely 21 years old, you could fax a copy of the vehicle
	registration papers to the EPA at 202-233-9596, and request an
	exemption.  After a suitable amount of time, they should produce
	a form that says the EPA isn't bothered and then you're back at 
	the mercy of the USDA and Customs.

they said that bonding the vehicle would require the value of the vehicle
plus the duty to be posted, etc. and there was something about a $100 fee.

Now, knowning that this is from the government, you could call on a different
day and get different info...

	---------------------------------------------------
but me, I've got some '73 Range Rover papers to FAX to Washington...  

Hmmmm, it won't fit in the 20' container with the 88" S.II and my stuff.
Guess I'll have to bring it back after The Nationals next May... & Maybe a
trip to Ireland too, I haven't been there yet :-)

    Cheers,
	--bill	caloccia@Team.Net	http://www.senie.com/billc/

      1  3     dl OD  L           "Land Rover's first, because
      |--|--+  o  |   |            Land Rovers last."
      2  4  R  ul N   H           '72 Range Rover

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 12:46:20 -0700
From: matts@cacilj.caciasl.com (Matt Snyder)
Subject: Sog /Leatherman Knife (no rover content anymore)

FWIW, I have the Gerber tool, use it a lot, occasionally cut wire with it, 
and just love it.
-Matt

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 15:50:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: series weights

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:

> ;   LR IIA 109 basic       3,301	 	2,000 (+ driver & 2 passengers)
> >   LR IIA 109 StnWgn      3,752		  400 (+ 10 persons!)

> Hummm ... I wonder where the 109 stationwagon gets its 450ish extra pounds of 
> weight ove the 2 door?
>.
	Need the weight of a 109 hardtop to see.  The middle doors, rear
	safari door, sides with sliding windows, roof w/ safari top, rear
	petrol tank with 2x capacity (of weights are with full tanks),
	middle and rear bench seats...

------------------------------

From: Daniel Grambihler <danielg@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: 4WD payloads
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 13:12:28 -0800 (PST)

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 Dixon Kenner wrote
> On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, John Brabyn wrote:
> > I'd be interested to know what the Defender 90's payload is in the UK; I 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 24 lines)]
> 	trying to find 1,700 pounds plus for the comparison with the
> 	88 station wagon.

Looking at my D90 brochure, the following appears under "WEIGHTS"

Estimated curb weight    3560 lbs (1618 Kg)
Gross vehicle weight
rating (GVWR)            6003 lbs (2723 kg)

3560lbs + 2443lbs = 6003lbs

Looks like GVWR is a contrived number for luxury tax evasion.

later - Daniel

-- 
Daniel Grambihler
danielg@eskimo.com
GAT !d(--) -p+/-- c++++/--- l++ u++/- e+ m/+/++@ s-/ n--- h+ f* g-/+
    w+ t+ r y++/--/**

'95 D90

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 16:25:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Curtis V. Palmer" <gegcvpx@gsusgi2.Gsu.EDU>
Subject: Used LR prices on the Web

For the person who requested used Land Rover '89 prices, I offer
the following URL...  it, of course, is one organization's opinion
of the going price, but it does have some nice ratings, etc.
 
For the 1989 Range Rover in particular, use:
 
  URL  
gopher://gopher.enews.com:2100/00/showroom/edmunds/usedmake/used89/landr89.txt

This will bring you straight there to the file.  To start at the top,
use the following address:

  URL gopher://gopher.enews.com:2100/11/showroom/edmunds

You can either use a gopher tool or use the URL's above in your Web
browser... enjoy!
 
Curtis V Palmer
Atlanta, GA USA
 
hope to buy a '94 Defender next spring

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 13:32:46 +0100
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Re: 4WD payloads

 Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca> writes:

> Vehicle 		Gross Wt. 	Payload
 -----------------	---------	-------
  LR IIA 88 basic	 2,953		1,000 (+ driver & 2 passengers)
  LR IIA 88 StnWgn       3,281            100 (+ 7 persons)

  L.R. Def 90		 6,003	        2,443 (WOW!)
	Considering that if you remove the 2.25l iron lump and put in
	a 3.5l aluminium lump engine, the weights of both are supposed to 
	be quite close.  Where is all this extra weight coming from?
	The roll bars shouldn't be that heavy, nor the A/C.  The skin
	is apparantly thinner in the D90 that it was on the IIA.  A 
	couple inches on the frame don't add that much wither.  We are
	trying to find 1,700 pounds plus for the comparison with the
	88 station wagon.

 That's easy, the extra 1,700 lbs is the ego of course!  The D-90 at
 6,003 lbs is even more than my stripped SWB 404-S Unimog which recently
 weighed 4,980 lbs Net.

 Seriously though, the D-90 must be 'Gross' vehicle weight (GVW), while the
 Series are probably 'Net' weights.

                          ______
 Michael Carradine        [__[__\==                     Rumpole of the Bay  
 cs@crl.com               [________]                            '65 IIA 88
             ___________.._(o)__.(o)_______...o^^^^^^
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 4x4 WWW page at:  http://www.crl.com/~cs/unimog.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 16:08:29 -0600 (CST)
From: David Place <dplace@SIRNet.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Het Shields and Vapour Lock or is it?

Has anyone ever tried the transistor heat shields that we Ham Radio types 
use?  The could be attached with the special heat transfer cement used on 
electrical assemblies and they are aluminum and have fins.  If no one 
responds, I will try it and because it won't get hot here for another 9 
months of good skating, I will report next summer. 
On another topic, is our Islandic lady still on the net?  If I wanted to 
bring a Land Rover into Island would I have a problem and what is the 
Islandic Kroner trading at?  I have an Islandic wife and we would like to 
visit.  I understand Land Rovers are common there.  Dave VE4PN

------------------------------

From: Daniel Grambihler <danielg@eskimo.com>
Subject: D90 Specs
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 14:26:57 -0800 (PST)

FYI:

You can find the '95 Defender specs under my LR page at:

http://www.eskimo.com/~danielg

NOTE: This is a first draft undergoing constant revision, so don't
be *too* judgemental. Thanks!

-- 
Daniel Grambihler
danielg@eskimo.com
GAT !d(--) -p+/-- c++++/--- l++ u++/- e+ m/+/++@ s-/ n--- h+ f* g-/+
    w+ t+ r y++/--/**

'95 D90

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 17:59:00 EDT
From: tdj@fore.com (Tom Des Jardins)
Subject: Disco owners, winches, aftermarket or OEM

I noticed during this last spate of messages that there are a number of
Disco (is this the trendy word?) owners, and I would like to know if
anyone, especially in the states, fitted a winch to theirs? (I have to be
careful with that wording, my wife may object)

Did you have it dealer installed?
(I am worried about the air bag foo)
Does it interface to the standard brush gard?
Is it effective?
How much was it?

I recall my favorite scene in "The gods must be crazy" where the fellow
winched his rover up a tree accidently.

Could I do that?  :-)

I would also be interested in knowing what the best Magazine for the LRO is?

Thanks,

Tom Des Jardins
FORE Systems (412)635-3374  FAX 772-6500 url http://www.fore.com
Please note new phone number.  I am now at the McKnight road facility.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 08:01:38 +0800 (WST)
From: TONY YATES  <tonyy@waalpha.wa.BoM.GOV.AU>
Subject: Re: 4WD payloads

>  Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca> writes:
> > Vehicle 		Gross Wt. 	Payload
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 16 lines)]
> 	trying to find 1,700 pounds plus for the comparison with the
> 	88 station wagon.

  All that extra off-road ability has to weigh something. :-)

==========================================================
                                      ()  (  )      ()
Tony Yates                           (  ) (   )    (  )
Bureau of Meteorology               (    )(    ) (      )
Port Hedland                       (       )   )(        )
Western Australia                 (          ) ) --------
                                   ------------
ph:  (091) 401 350                 \\\**\\**\
fax: (091) 401 100                   \***\*\
                                       \\*\
email: A.Yates@bom.gov.au                \\

==========================================================

------------------------------

From: Sekerere@aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 21:38:41 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

how the heck do I decode this blooming thing-it was great when it was just a
txt
file??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Chris Whitehead

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 12:28:00 +1000
From: Lloyd Allison <lloyd@cs.monash.edu.au>
Subject: track rods

Rangie, Disco, Def trackrods:
   are vulnerable to damage 'cos they hang below the  axle line.
   They can be assisted with a bracket that bolts onto the rear
   of the front diff, to give a little support, when a rock strikes.
   It is not recommended to weld track rods or reinforce them -
   there are strong safety (and regulatory) reasons not to go
   altering the properties of the metal, besides you might
   shift the weak point to somewhere more serious.

Lloyd

------------------------------

Subject: land Rover elephant & a penis
From: rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Robin Craig)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 21:08:31 -0500

What a great put down joke, laughed for ages , brilliant,

Robin

--
Robin Craig, rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca
FourFold Symmetry, Ottawa, Ont. |  Ottawa Valley Land Rovers

------------------------------

Subject: LAND ROVER TOY NEWS
From: rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Robin Craig)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 95 21:13:42 -0500

About 5 weeks ago I offered for sale a number of Land Rover toys. I was 
pleased by the response and those who wanted toys got them, even if I did 
run into bid of a delay on shipping them ou. On receipt of their goodies 
I did not hear of any complaints.

One person who asked for stuff picked the three MOST POPULAR toys and I 
have been holding them since that time for him. His monies have not been 
forthcoming so I am offering them for sale again.

This time the deal is as follows, I want to get the transaction done 
asap, these have been hanging around too long now.
I will put my price down beside each one but you can bid for them as with 
the stamps, which seems the fairest to all of you. 

It is now Fray the 13th in the evening. BIDS close evening of Tues 17th 
of this month.

All prices are in CDn dollars.

Britains 109 miltary, green, open, paint 8/10 missing front licence 
number back presentmissing spare tyre on rear, all other wheels tyres OK.
no plastic top or accesories except shovel and ppick on fenders. 1/32 
scale diecast. A real favourite.
CDN dollars 30  

About the same size but a little smaller, corgie 109 station wagon 
safari with luggage on the roof and spare on the hood and spalshed mud 
(paint) down the side as it came from Corgi, when i say luggae I mean 
spres like rims, sand ladder etc.
Has brush bar on front. about 4 inches long. MInt condition no box.
CDN dollars 15

Dinky series one 1949 yellow Automobile Association soft top.. Mit and 
boxed number DY9-B. box verly slightly marked up.
CDn dollars 20

Buy one, pay 5 for shipping buy 2 or more and pay 7 for shipping anhwere 
in NA.

Go for it girls

PS still falling about after the elephant VS Land Rover joke.

Robin

--
Robin Craig, rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca
FourFold Symmetry, Ottawa, Ont. |  Ottawa Valley Land Rovers

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 21:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Slade <slade@teleport.com>
Subject: GPS FAQ?

Hi, 

Just a newbie seriouslly thinking about a GPS.  Don't really know much 
about them except for the fact that I have been in situations where 
having one and knowing how to use it would have been a tremendous help.

Is there a FAQ for the GPS?  Are there any good texts explaining basic 
to advanced ways to use them?

I'm sure there are plenty of users/owners out there (I've been trying to 
keep up w/the GPS thread), and was looking for list members advice.

Thanking you in advance,

Michael

slade@teleport.COM  Public Access User -- Not affiliated with Teleport
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-28800, N81)

------------------------------

From: "T.F. Mills" <tomills@du.edu>
Subject: Re: GPS FAQ?
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 00:27:28 -0600 (MDT)

Michael Slade asks about GPS.

The Nov issue of FOUR WHEELER or PETERSEN'S 4 WHEEL has an article on 
GPS.  Sorry, can't remember which mag it was:  I skimmed both at the same 
time.

T. F. Mills
tomills@du.edu                               University of Denver Library
http://www.du.edu/~tomills                          Denver  CO 80208  USA

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
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