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From: Andrew Grafton <A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : LR Lighting
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 10:07:51 BST

> Indicators top or bottom? It seems that Defenders (should) have the
> indicators at the bottom. Does this apply to all models - Series beasts too?

Our 1978 SIII has the indicators at the bottom.  The 1982 SIII has them 
at the top.  A 1976 had 'em at the bottom, and an '80 SIII of South African
origin had 'em at the top.

The only machine I am sure has them in the 'original' position 
is the 1978 model, but who in their right mind would bother
to change the things round when there are *so many* other jobs
to do once you've bought a LR?!  

Maybe LR changed the things round in 1980 when they were trying to
decide whether or not they should perhaps try using metric bolts
in Imperial holes, mate the SI and SIII, or perhaps jack the whole
thing in and make seaside rock or dry roast peanuts instead?

Please, O Lucas, don't let this turn into a "where are your indicators"
thread!  

Personally I like them at the top so they blink at the eye level
of Lesser Beings driving BMWs, Mercedes &c.  {tongue firmly in 
cheek here!}

Perpetuating the bad pun - can anyone shed any light on the 
subject?

All the best,

Andy
A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: Andrew Grafton <A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : SIIA exhaust
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 10:49:32 BST

> Have been lurking for a few weeks, and gleaning some useful information. 
 I have a SIIA 2.25 Diesel 109 SW. The vehicle has worked quite hard (had 
> a trans-africa safari two years ago). At startup there is a lot of white 
 smoke when the accelerator is used. Does this indicate that the pump 
> timing should be attended to? I'm told that that the vehicle (known as 
 green mamba) is also giving off black smoke once warmed up, so I guess 
> I'll have to have the injectors overhauled. I'd appreciate any 
 information on the above

er...  don't they all do that?

If the engine is at all worn or the injectors are dirty, there 
will be both whitey/gray smoke until the engine reaches 
its correct operating temperature (steam from exhaust 
and unburnt diesel) and black smoke under load (incomplete
combustion).

Whatever you do there will _always_ be some black smoke under 
load - to quote "Particulate emissions are a function of a
diffused flame front".  Translation - diesels will always make
black smoke unless you stick a filter on the exhaust.
(yes, Mike, I've been reading...)

Check the machine isn't using water, because there is an outside 
possibility that the white smoke may be water getting in the
combustion chambers somehow.

What to do to minimise smoke is a tricky subject.  You could try
advancing the timing a bit, but that may result in more black
smoke and knocking under load.  It would certainly help the 
start-of-day problem.  The distributor pump and skew gear that 
links it to the camshaft tend to wear so they retard the ignition 
slightly.  If that's the case then the pump may also be worn 
so it over-advances, pumping in more fuel than the engine can 
handle under load or on acceleration (leads to black smoke).
If you do advance the pump to compensate for wear, it will 
only need a very slight shift (like a hair's breadth between
pointer and groove on pump).

If the injectors are worn or dirty, the fuel won't be burning 
correctly.  That would mean white/grey smoke until the engine
is hot, and black under load.  If the idle jets are crudded up
then idling may be erratic and smoky until the engine gets warm.
>From you description it sounds like your main jets are 'hosing',
injecting a stream of fuel rather than a spray.  That would cause
unburnt diesel to be passed when the engine is cold and then 
soot as it heats up.

My guess at the plan of attack;  Injectors, pump, timing components
In approximately that order of expense...!

If you have crankcase pressure or the machine uses a lot of oil,
It might be worth having a compression check done to ascertain
how worn the engine is, 'cause if you are losing compression on 
one or all cylinders you may be fighting a losing battle.  I have 
no idea what the compression figure should be.

One of our diesels has had new injectors, pump, timing components,
head&block overhaul, and *still* makes smoke at startup and under
load.  Not a lot, but some.  I think it is a fact of life!

Sorry if that's all a bit garbled, 'cause I am in a hurry!  Oily
Wadders please correct my omissions and mistakes!

All the best,

Andy
A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:24:03 +0200
From: terje@tvnorge.no (Terje Krogdahl)
Subject: Norwegian Land Rover Club

Well folks, the Norwegian Land Rover Club (Norsk Land Rover Klubb/NLRK) now
has a new URL:

http://regina.uio.no/nlrk              (Norwegian)
http://regina.uio.no/nlrk/index.e.html (English)

Please update your links, and have fun!

For those who participated in the NLRK 20th anniversary rally at Lillehammer
in August, the results from the trials competition are available there,
as well as some pictures from the photosession.

Terje K.
terje@tvnorge.no
http://www.tvnorge.no/~terje/index.e.html

>.

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Re : SIIA exhaust
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 12:29:26 BST

Hear him! Hear him! Andy speaketh not with forked tongue.
Except what I think I'd do,is first make sure the air filter
is clean,and doesnt have too much oil in it.(Unlikely,that last
bit,I grant you,but when I first got mine,the PO<prat and a half>
had filled the bloody thing right to the top!).Then do the tappets.
Both these operations are free/cheepy cheepy.
Then the injectors etc.As Andy ses,in ascending order of pain in the
wallet.A new fuel filter might help,too.But dont forget his other
advice!
Given the mileage your engine has done,frankly,I would advise getting
the head off ASAP.(This through bitter experience).Dropping a valve
in these engines is *not* a pleasant happening.The chances are you
need to grind the valves in and fit new oil seals thereto,at the least.
Plus,if compression is not all it might be,reringing would make things
a little better,at minimal cost,and it really isnt all that bad a job.
Have fun!
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 22:08:48 +1000
From: Lloyd Allison <lloyd@cs.monash.edu.au>
Subject: grease in swivel balls - a no no

Toyotas are I think made to have grease in the swivel balls,
Land-Rovers have hypoy!

If you put grease in the swivels, it will be pushed-away from the universals
and stay away - no lubrications.

Lloyd

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer <Alan_Richer.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 18 Sep 95  8:12:01 EDT
Subject: Re : SIIA exhaust

Re: Oily Wadder compression:

The figure Mike Rooth gave me at one time was (I believe) 338 PSI.

    ajr

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 95 10:06:49 EDT
From: "R. Pierce Reid" <70004.4011@compuserve.com>
Subject: D90 Alum Hardtop for 96

Folks:

I finally saw a picture of the '96 D90 station wagon (edition of 500, I believe)
with the aluminum hardtop.

I want to find out if the Aluminum hardtop will fit a 94 D90.  I really don't
want a fiberglass hardtop, but if I can get an aluminum one (and paint the sides
Coniston green with a nice white top and possibly fit safari vents, etc) I WANT
ONE!!!  The pictures appear to be of a vehicle with full roll cage *and* the
aluminum top fitted.  The top appears to be cut out for the cage.

Any ideas out there?  I bet cost is steep, ($2000?) but inquiring minds want to
know.

Thanks, 

R. P. Reid

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 07:46:29 -0700
From: burns@lint.cisco.com (Russell burns)
Subject: Aluminum Workhorse

Roverers,
I had the  oppertunity to attend the  LROA meeting Saturday the  18.
They need your help.
I normaly don't get involved with group functions, as I have to  deal
with all the  B.S. at work, and don't need it during the weekends.
But due to my love for some smelly hunk of tin and grease, and maybe
the neurotics who sit behind the wheel, I decided to get involved in  this one.
THE A.W. is our best chance for a national club. It has been put out by a
small group of people who have been busting their butts.
They are putting out a letter to all the members explaining their situation.
There is a lot of emotion involved here. This is very near, and dear to
each and every one of them. Please respond to the letter, and get all
the other Rover owners, and lovers to respond. If you don't suscribe,
then get off you butts, and invest 20 bucks. This is out best chance
for a national club, and we can't afford to let it go to waste.
The Aluminum Workhorse is suffering from  great growing  pains.
We need to write a charter for this club, and formalize it. The
problem is that the gearheads who put out this publication have no
idea how to accomplish this. After all there just Rover owners, Mud
Rovers, and beer for the Canadian types.
Please if you have had some experience in  setting up a national club
step forward, and offer some assistance. WE NEED IT YESTERDAY.
Please do not bother to respond  with flames. We understand the problems
but just don't know how to fix them. Take a hard look at what we have in
the A.W. just the membership list is a godsend. After all who else are you
going to call if you break down, or get stuck.
PLEASE STAND UP KNOW and see what you can help.

Thanks
Russ Burns

Russ Burns________________________________________________________________
CiscoSystems

------------------------------

Subject: 7500 mi Service
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 11:18:06 -0500
From: Gary Mitchelson <garym@cais.cais.com>

-- [ From: Gary Mitchelson * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

I just checked with my LR dealer, HBL in Tysons Corner VA, and they quoted
me $95 for the 7500 mi service for my 95 Discovery. So there seems to be a
bit of a price difference around the country.
--
Gary Mitchelson                    
garym@racalrecord.com           
N3JPU             

------------------------------

From: "James" <James.Curtis@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date:          Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:23:11 GMT0BST
Subject:       Open Heart Surgery, (L.R. Style)

Hi ...

Background:
SeriesII  1960

Back on the oil episode...

There are 4 big nuts and bolts attaching the gearbox to the bell 
housing...

How does one go about undoing them?

Do I have to remove the bell housing from the engine first?
(Also the bit of the bulkhead which gives access to it?)

If I remove the bell housing from the engine...  does the clutch 
mechanism need resetting in place?

Any HELP??

Thanks in anticipation  
                                    (as they say)

Cheers...
                   James.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 08:25:11 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Finally got my 1970 IIa 109 Land Rover licensed!

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Finally got my 1970 IIa 109 Land Rover licensed!
I can hardly believe it! It's *true* I Finally got my 1970 IIa 109 Land
Rover licensed! Passed emissions, vehicle inspection, registration VIN and
all!

For the recently attending, this is a vehicle that I bought in New York
state last MAY and drove it all over the country and back to Arizona. I had
a problem with the VIN; that it was nowhere to be found on the vehicle. I
finally found a place (British Pacific) that agreed to locate a sample one,
and make a new (blank) one for me that I could stamp in the number from the
title that I had, and attach it to the vehicle. It's been almost 5 months!
The alternative route was to get a bonded title at a cost of between $350
and $600. I even got historic vehicle plates, and all only "cost *" $48.75
(In case you're associated with the DMV, I'm just kidding about this!)

  * (Actual cost: VIN plate (2) $21.00 each (messed up on the first one by
stamping in the "6" upside-down, making it a "9") Emission test $6.75 plates
and reg. $48.75. Total cost: $97.50)

  ** (A *far* sight less than the $700-$800 that the Discovery cost!)

I took it to Sedona with 5 other friends on a date. Anyone happen to see a
tan colored *huge* 5-door "the original SUV" cruising around Arizona last
week? I got a *lot* of waves, thumbs-up signs (I *think* they were thumbs!
;-) ) and smiles from almost everyone, including 2 Discoverys and 2 Range
Rovers. Only disapproving looks came from people trying to pass me while the
tired old 4 cylinder churned up the mountain passes with a load of people
and picnic gear.

And to top it all off, my personalized plate came in for the IIa "88" Land
Rover: LION B8  (Thanks to another on the LRO list, Jan Fisk, I think?)

Right now, life couldn't be much finer!!! Truly blessed I am!

Dave (in Rover bliss) Brown
 #=====#         #========#          -------,___           _______
 |___|__\___     |___|__|__\___      |--' |  |  \_|_      / /__|__\___
 | _ |   |_ |}   | _ |  |   |_ |}    |  _ |--+--|_  |     \_/-\___/-\_|}
 "(_)""""(_)"    "(_)"""""""(_)"    ||_/_\___|__/_\_|}      ( )    ( )
                                       (_)      (_)
 1971 "88" IIa   1970 "109" IIa     1994 Discovery (Sold) '87 Range Rover
  LION B8         "Historic Veh."    (Too hard to "draw")

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 08:55:49 -0700
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Which Gasket Sealant?

In message <199509170238.VAA03301@butler.uk.stratus.com>  writes:

> I've used the Permatex brand 'Blue' and 'Copper' versions....both of which
> are the rubbery silicone caulk type sealers.    Used all at various times on
; my Alfas with decent success.   I only want to do this once,  (at least for a
> long while).
> What are some of you LRO tech types finding the most success with?

Try the blue RTV that comes in the silver tube. Sorry I don't remember the beand
name or the part number.  

I think its the best of the bunch.

TeriAnn Wakeman           FOR SALE:  1968 MGBGT. British racing green with
twakeman@apple.com                    black interior. overdrive. recently
                          US$ 2500    rebuilt engine & brakes. very minor       
                                      surface rust at paint scratches   
              
                         
                       

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:58:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Rosenbaum <rosenbau@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: D90 Alum Hardtop for 96

On 18 Sep 1995, R. Pierce Reid wrote:

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
> Folks:
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 22 lines)]
> Thanks, 
> R. P. Reid
Dear Pierce:
	I wrote to Rovers North a couple of months ago about alum.top 
retrofit to '94 D-90's. They said that no *kit* would be available from 
LRNA but that the individual parts could be ordered. That sounds like 
B-I-G B-U-C-K-S, but depending on what is necessary as opposed to all of 
the interior finishings, I am holding off on getting the fiberglas top to 
see if the aluminium top would be possible. One big (read:expensive) part 
will be the full rear door.
	Please let me know what you find out.
	I am sure that there will be more info once the top is actually seen.

Best wishes, 
David 
(green '94 D-90)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Sep 95 12:07:23 EDT
From: "R. Pierce Reid" <PREID@csi.compuserve.com>
Subject: D90 leak... any tips

Howdy;

I have a minor water leak in the top of my '94 D90... It's over the
passenger-side of the windshield and sprays the passenger with enough water to
be annoying, especially in heavy rain or any time the wipers are on.

Anyone else had similar problems with leaks around the softtop/windshield
joints?  How'd you solve them?

FYI, I have not yet really looked for the leak.... it's on my '5 minute jobs'
list for this week.  I suspect a leak between the windshield frame and the
channeling that holds the softtop.  Hopefully, removing the channel and
reinstalling it with some good automotive caulking sandwiched between the pieces
will solve it.

Thanks

R. P. Reid

------------------------------

From: "Mugele, Gerry" <Gerry.Mugele@wellsfargo.com>
Subject: No Film at 11:00
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 09:19:00 PDT

This just in from the Hollister Hills:

(LCLRO/PPMGC, San Francisco 9/18/95) A super secret planned confrontation 
with the forces of wealth and excess was somewhat thwarted this weekend when 
rebel forces from the LCLRO (Left Coast Land Rover Owners) failed to 
anticipate schedule changes by LRNA (Land Rover of North America).  Further 
problems were caused by the exceedingly high attrition of non-combatants 
within the rebel camp high atop nearby Fremont Peak.  By late (very, very 
late) Friday evening it became clear that only a fraction of the expected 
troops were going to arrive in time for the planned covert Saturday morning 
assault.  This was further complicated when the leak (information not oil) 
from their mole within LRNA had dried up and/or provided misinformation.

Despite all these problems casualties were light on both sides: early on, 
one Series III 88 threw a shoe, a beautiful Series IIa NADA 109SW was laid 
down with minor injuries, another Series III 88, overcome by a severe gust 
of gravity, became wedged in a very precarious position (two wheels hanging 
down into a crevasse)  and a newly acquired Series IIa 109 roadster 
demonstrated the hazards of bonded brake linings.

In related stories: the CopeMobile earns an official name, Gooey 
demonstrates weakness in Michelin sidewalls, Ben Smith finds limits to CB 
radio range in rough terrain, and a 109 helps coin a new term:  "Brakeage". 
 Poison Oak - ally or foe?  Stay tuned for these stories and much more...

Gerry 72 88
*** You can t tell which way the train went by looking at the track.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:33:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Rosenbaum <rosenbau@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: D90 leak... any tips

On 18 Sep 1995, R. Pierce Reid wrote
> I have a minor water leak in the top of my '94 D90... It's over the
> passenger-side of the windshield and sprays the passenger with enough water to
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> list for this week.  I suspect a leak between the windshield frame and the
> channeling that holds the softtop.

Dear Pierce:
My '94 D-90 does it on *both* sides. There's foam rubber between the 
windshield top and the soft-top channel that fills with water and then 
leaks in *heavy* rain. (I don't notice it as much when the door tops are 
off because so much rain blows in from the sides :*)  ).
I haven't gotten around to fixing the leaks because ..... it hasn't 
rained hard here for a couple of months. Then, when we get to the dark 
and rainy season, it will be to dark and rainy to fix....   I do keep a 
bunch of rags in the storage compartment below the windshield.
Best wishes,
David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:32:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Aluminum Workhorse

On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Russell burns wrote:

> THE A.W. is our best chance for a national club. It has been put out by a
> small group of people who have been busting their butts.

	LROA is the best chance for an American national club.  AW is the 
	newsletter of LROA.  Correct?  AW is mostly Brad Blevins I believe.
	The LROA organisational side of things are a few other people.

	LROA could be considered the best chance because it is the biggest
	single club in North America.  However, just as a point of interest,
	if you add up the memberships of the five big regional clubs in
	North America, they have a larger total membership than LROA.  
	Add in the smaller clubs, and LROA begins to get dwarfed in size.
	Looking down themembership rolls (from the latest AW), LROA is a
	massive Western USA based club, with a fine newsletter, but 
	little else really.

> The Aluminum Workhorse is suffering from  great growing  pains.

	AW or LROA?  Just a point.  

	Regarding LROA (if that is the one) This is almost identical to the
	problems that befell the Association of Land Rover Owners
	of Canada (ALROC).  ALROC functioned quite well when the
	Executive and newsletter (production etc) were all located
	in one geographical area.  Over time, when you had a President
	on one side of the country, a vice-president on the other, etc.
	it became very difficult to co-ordinate and control evertything.
	ALROC then tended towards a position where clubs were established
	in different geographical areas that fed into ALROC.  Sadly,
	most of these clubs are gone and ALROC, or its remnants have
	been transfered to OVLR (where we have not decided what to do 
	with it)  LROA will have to bear these lessons in mind if
	it wants to be a club with individuals as members...

	The AW is similar to the ALROC publication "The Transfer Box",
	or any other club newsletter that is/was regularly produced.
	So long as AW comes out regularily and on time things will be
	fine.  Once you have AW, or any newsletter for that matter, being
	produced, the only growing pains that can be experienced are
	reproduction and distribution.  Whether you make one copy or 500,
	it doesn't matter.  But is must arrive that many times a year
	as promised.  If this isn't threatened... AW is not printed by Brad 
	personally, it is sent out.  Can't the publisher/mailer handle the 
	volume?  If not, change them.  I'm confused.  What are the growing 
	pains that the newsletter/AW is experiencing?

> We need to write a charter for this club, and formalize it. The
> problem is that the gearheads who put out this publication have no
> idea how to accomplish this. 

	Take an existing one and modify it, but there are other questions
	that need to be answered first.

> Please if you have had some experience in  setting up a national club
> step forward, and offer some assistance. WE NEED IT YESTERDAY.

	Is LROA to be an association of existing clubs, or to be a massive
	club in its own right?

	If the later, how does LROA intend to deal with the large regional
	clubs and the smaller local clubs?  (Note:  ARC is the former,
	being an association of existing clubs and does not have a membership
	per se of individuals)  Is it going to compete against ROAV, BSROA,
	Solihull Society et al?

	What has provoked this?  LROA seemed to be running fine, then a 
	sudden meeting, and now this.  You seek solutions, yet there is
	little on what is underlying these problems.  To help adequately,
	an understanding of the problems is required.

	Rgds,

	

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer <Alan_Richer.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 18 Sep 95 12:29:57 EDT
Subject: Sealants

Personally, I've had good luck with the Permatex Aviation sealer
used with the standard gaskets. Permatex Blue and Copper are
very good if you don't have the gasket (blue for the regular and
copper for high-temp (exhaust area) stuff).

Of course, for the purists, Indian Head Gasket Shellac is still
available and works nicely. The reason I prefer the Permatex 
Aviation sealer over this is its applicator...

     Alan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:00:50 -0700
From: jimmyp@netcom.com (Jimmy Patrick)
Subject: For sale!

hello all,

Dan O' Rosa has to sell his car :-<

For Sale:

1961 88" Hard Top with lift gate.(also hoops set no canvas)
new clutch
new slave and master cyl
fuel tank just relined
all new brake cyl, lines, drums resurfaced
points, plugs, cables
new generator, new battery, new 16" tyres
runs strong
factory manuals
some spares

asking $5 million will take $3500

big discount!

call 707-546-4277
showroom at 630 wright street, Santa Rosa

jimmy

--
Jimmy Patrick
jimmyp@netcom.com
                                                 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 11:02:03 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: A "slight prejudice" towards Land Rovers...

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: A "slight prejudice" towards Land Rovers...
Hello all, (Larry Soo) I'm "here"... Almost missed the invitation to comment
on LR's, was whizzing buy the offroad digest when my eyes caught the "LRO".
I don't usually "read" the offroad list like I do the LRO list, so it's just
chance that I caught it.

Anyway... I think you'll find that LR owners, like probably the majority of
you, are prejudiced towards their type/brand of rig. I've owned jeeps and
Scouts in the past, so I do have some experience with others. As for why the
Defenders "don't sell well" (as it's stated) I'm sure is simply the price.
It's not their capabilities, performance, quality, etc. Larry's right, few
people want to pay high dollar for a spartan vehicle. That's why I got the
Discovery, it was loaded, and about the same price as a loaded Jeep GC,
Mits. Montero, Trooper, or you name it. And, it had dual air bags (only one
in '94), ABS 4-wheel disc brakes, seating for 7, and dual A/C. So, I guess
it gave me what I wanted, a rough 4WD that would go anywhere, and threw in
all the "yuppy junk" to boot! I looked at the defender too, but for only a
few thou more $ it had all the luxury without compromising on it's offroad
capabilities except 10" of wheelbase length. Fuel economy, advertising (or
lack thereof) and lack of a "dealer near you" have no doubt contributed to
sluggish defender sales. Also, today's trend is a "yuppy" trend, not buying
for vehicle abilities, but status, comfort, and features. Why else are there
so many Range Rovers with perfect body's. It isn't because they don't bend or
get scratched like other vehicles. (first hand experience with the Discovery
and Range Rover.) I have also considered the FJ40 and probably would have
bought one if I'd have found a good deal. But I found the IIa LR first, and
at a good price. A very close friend, Scott Lindsey, (also on the offroad
list) wants to go out and sort of compare his FJ to the LR. I'm curious as
well, and we only have to find a mutually acceptable time, and it'll happen.

A side by side comparison of the older (as well as the new LR's) LR and his
FJ revealed that the LR has a heavier frame, and lighter body and roof.
(aluminum) The FJ has a bigger engine, LR "may have" (not sure) lower
gearing. I think (can't remember now) the LR had more leafs in the springs,
which may make it more flexible and softer ride?

My opinion, for what it's worth, the LR will have a slight advantage,
probably a better cross slope angle, lower center of gravity. It will
probably have less frame flex, and less chance of rust, and will outlast the
FJ. (No flames, please, just my opinion.)

As for the newer Land Rovers, that's where the LR really excels *as a stock
truck*. Granted, anyone can take *any* rig and make it into *the best* 4WD
there is. But, right from the factory, I don't think there is any better.
Probably the closest to it may be the Toy LC with factory lockers. This is
the only rig I've seen that compares with the stoutness of frame, steering
components, diff's, etc... that the LR's have. And where the rubber hits the
trail, the LR's have very supple suspensions, and a great deal of
articulation. All "right out of the box." They also have full floating
axles, and very "over-built" in numerous areas. Yes, I know, the FJ is too,
with 7 quart oil capacity, etc...

As I see it, LR set's the standard by which other vehicles are judged. Am I
biased? Yes, most definitely. With just cause? I think so. Do I think "all
others are junk?" Definitely not! There's a part of me that would *love* to
own a Hummer! (in spite of what I've heard about reliability or problems.)

Any LR disadvantages? Sure. Parts availability/price. Let me clarify.
Virtually any and all parts of a series LR are available. (Even the
"commission plate" for the 109) but at a price. If one were to compare price
for price of many parts, they'd probably find that the LR parts are a bit
more expensive. But probably the most frustrating thing, is not having them
available at the local auto supply store, of in wrecking yards. I called
*every* wrecking yard in all of the Phoenix area, and found *one* '74 LR
series III. When I looked at it, it had nothing I really needed except a
power brake booster that they wanted around $150 for. I can get a new one
from England for considerably less. (again, there's a substantial time
delay.) Or even more frustrating, when requesting parts, to have the sales
droid say, "That's a Toyota, right"? Most of the parts catalogs don't list
LR's, or if they do, they have a blank space where the part that you need
is. Another disadvantage (here in the USA) is availability of aftermarket
parts. Try to get lockers, rino/roo/moo bar, rock sliders, wheels, (5 on
6-1/2 inch) or many other things. Common place in many parts or the
civilized world (and "un-civilized" world too!) but not where I live. And
unless you carry with you "one of everything" if you do happen to break down
on the trail (like when I blew up my clutch) the chance of another LR coming
by with the same part that you need (or coming by *at all*) is extremely
remote.

As for newer models vs. older ones... I think the newer ones are every bit
as tough as the older, series LR's. The difference is the weight, (all the
carpeting, leather seats, power windows, etc...) may give the older LR's an
advantage, while the V8 (thirsty, though it is) will give the newer LR's a
definite power advantage. Will the Defender last as long as the Series LR's?
Why not? Only difference is more electronics in the Defenders. Sure, this
may cause electrical problems down the road, where the simplicity of the
Series LR's will no doubt have similar problems, but with much easier and
less expensive solutions.

Please don't take this as a "mine's better than yours" thing. I used the FJ
as a comparison simply because I am more familiar with them than many
others, and I didn't include any pick up's because they're in a different
league in my opinion. I'm only explaining my vantage point, and opinions.
And remember, everyone has an opinion. (I'm sure we all know the old saying
about opinions...)

I've rambled on *far* too much already. As for the comparison (LR vs. FJ)
I'm sure either Scott or myself will be glad to post the "full" story, at
least the way we each saw it! ;-)

Dave (the LR man) Brown

 #=====#         #========#          -------,___           _______
 |___|__\___     |___|__|__\___      |--' |  |  \_|_      / /__|__\___
 | _ |   |_ |}   | _ |  |   |_ |}    |  _ |--+--|_  |     \_/-\___/-\_|}
 "(_)""""(_)"    "(_)"""""""(_)"    ||_/_\___|__/_\_|}      ( )    ( )
                                       (_)      (_)
 1971 "88" IIa   1970 "109" IIa     1994 Discovery (Sold) '87 Range Rover
  LION B8        Historic plates    (Too hard to "draw")   Bargain at $8500
                                     Okay... too expensive
                                     to trash out. :-(

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

From: JAMES_CIRBUS@HPATC2.desk.hp.com
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 15:31:00 -0400
Subject: ARB install questions

Greetings,

With a couple of days to ponder the idea, I thought I would ask the D-90
owners on the list a question.  What are your experiences, good and bad,
with different mounting locations for the compressor?

The only two ideas I have come up with are, under the passenger seat, or
under the hood.  Has anyone had any experiences with these two locations?
Is there a better one?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Jim Cirbus
94 D-90
(three wheel drive by week's end)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 14:45:16 -0800
From: jfhess@ucdavis.edu (John Hess)
Subject: books, bookstores wanted

Hello again,

I have had no response to my post from last week concerning a book written
by Roderic Owen entitled Roddy Owen's Africa. As it was published in
Abington by Marcham Manor Press, I thought I would have a better chance
finding a copy in the UK than the states and to date, I've had very little
luck over here.

Now I am requesting the name, phone and fax number for the bookshop in
London just off Leicester square that specializes in automotive books.

Thank you for your help.

John F. Hess, PhD                   Phone me 916 752 8420
Dept of Cell Bio. and Hum. Anat.    FAX me (ask first)
University of Calif
Davis, CA                           Email me jfhess@ucdavis.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 18:32:33 -0500
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Mid-Atlantic Rally

I've heard some rumors, *dis*information if you will, that the date of the 
rally has been changed.  IT IS STILL SEPTEMBER 30 - OCTOBER 1.  The date was 
moved up a week...from *last years* date, but we did that a year ago.  We 
have to have two events withing one calendar year to avoid paying for 
another insurance floater (which is no small monetary outlay).

Everything is still AOK, and (knock on wood) the tropics off the African 
coast seem quiet - for the first time this year: it takes ten days to two 
weeks for hurricanes to get to us from Cape Verde.  Marilyn (apparently) 
will bypass us (not that we wouldn't like a little rain to fill up the mud pit).

For those of you on the list who have sent in reservations and to the 20- 
odd ROAV members, I pick up the next newsletter from the printers tomorrow, 
and dieties willing, the creeks don't rise (and the blokes at the post 
office take time off to buy more ammunition), you should have it in your hot 
little hands by the weekend. 

The Mid-Atlantic Rally will be the first rally "on-line."  We will be able 
to post/download meaasges on-site.  Reach us at <LR88@aol.com> or the below 
address.  Cheers
      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |       Rover Owners' Association of Virginia         |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 16:43:31 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Re: Serial # placard for 109's.

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Re: Serial # placard for 109's.
>> From: ccray@showme.missouri.edu

> SUBJECT: Serial # placard for 109's.
> British pacific has located a sample serial number placard for a IIa
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ray Harder                 Columbia, Missouri   314-882-2000
>---------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, here it is. All I learned about forging, ahem... that is... stamping
a "random" number into an insignificant piece if aluminum.

I used some stamps that my brother had. The set(s) (numbers and letters) can
be bought from J.C. Whitney for around $10-$15. Be careful though, practice
if possible on a scrap piece of metal to get a feel for how hard of soft to
hammer. Also, be very careful on spacing, and which direction the stamps
are facing. I ruined my 1st card by stamping a "9" instead of a "6". Cost me
another $21. Keep in mind that this is aluminum. Also, stamp on a flat, hard
surface, like a smooth cement floor.

I found that a business card taped to the plate made a good guide to even up
the numbers. 1st try was a pencil line drawn, but even with that, I had
high/low numbers (they weren't even). The card worked much better. I just slid
the number until it touched the card, and eyeballed the spacing. (lining up
the edge of the previous number, with the edge of the stamp shaft as I looked
down on it.)

Good luck...

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:36:04 +0930
From: Tiffany Downing <tiffanyd@tafe.sa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Re : LR Lighting

At 10:07 AM 18/09/95 BST, you wrote:
>> Which way round are the indicators & parking(marker?) lights supposed to be?
>> Indicators top or bottom? It seems that Defenders (should) have the
>> indicators at the bottom. Does this apply to all models - Series beasts too?

Our Series IIA 1975 has the Indicators on the top (Australian) if that's any
help, after reading Andrew Grafton's message

>Our 1978 SIII has the indicators at the bottom.  The 1982 SIII has them 
>at the top.  A 1976 had 'em at the bottom, and an '80 SIII of South African
>origin had 'em at the top.

this probably just makes it more confusing.  Oh well that's LandRover for
you, why use 5 bolts when you can use 12!! :-)

Regards

Tiffany Downing

********************************************
Co-ordinator, International Student Programs
TAFE South Australia, AUSTRALIA
Phone:   (61 8) 226 3202
Fax:     (61 8) 226 3655
E-Mail:  tiffanyd@tafe.sa.edu.au
********************************************

------------------------------

From: ecoethic@rcinet.com
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:00:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Avon Rangemasters

Gawie van Blerk asked about Avon Rangemasters a couple of days ago, and 
since I have been modem-less recently due to my daughter needing a modem 
quickly, I am responding late. But the wait will be worth it, because I have a 
story to tell about these tires.

Back in early 1985 I bought a complete set of 7.50R X 16 Avon Rangemasters 
mounted on new Land Rover rims from Rovers North. (Back when Mark still 
answered the phone!) I put them on my Series IIA 88' which was my first Rover 
(I still have it). We lived in a small town in Northern New Hampshire, and there 
were lots of logging roads close by. Well, back then I was trying to sell the 
glamour of off-roading to my wife, so we loaded up the three kids and the wife, 
who was pregnant at the time. I drove very slowly and gently, and I had the tire 
pressure down to 20 lbs., so don't think ill of me. Everything went nicely for the 
first few miles as we climbed the mountain slope. My wife even commented that 
the Rover wasn't so bad after all!

Well, it all went downhill, quickly. We were going down a straight stretch of 
road when I saw two young men a couple hundred feet away walking toward us. 
One looked like Hulk Hogan and the other looked like Lou Ferrigno (The other 
Hulk). The dark-haired Hulk had a 22 Cal. rifle and started shooting at cans that 
were floating in a puddle in the road in direct line with us. I honked my horn a 
few times to alert them that we were there, and he stopped. Now, as the man 
said when asked why he took his clothes off and ran through the cactus patch, 
"It seemed like a good idea at the time," I made the slight error of stopping when 
I reached where they were and saying "I don't appreciate your shooting that rifle 
in our direction, didn't you see us?"

Well, that comment combined with the beer in their guts and the fact that we 
were miles from the nearest habitation caused them to start cursing at me and 
proclaiming that they were free to do what ever they felt like. I immediately 
sensed a lack of reason and decorum so I moved out briskly with them chasing 
after us with the blonde-haired Hogan beating on the back window with his fists. 
(Still have the same window, it's all scratched.) At that point we were climbing 
uphill over bedrock and it was somewhat rough, so I only went fast enough to 
keep them running without getting any closer. The kids were terrorized and the 
wife was not too happy. After a couple of hundred feet of this they got tired as 
the trail was getting steeper. So the dark-haired Hogan started shooting at the 
Avon's to slow us down. He emptied the rifle into the right rear tire, but nothing 
happened. The sound of the gunfire made me decide to speed up a lot and we 
went flying over the bedrock and out of sight. Half a mile up the trail I stopped 
to check the Rover out, and I couldn't find any damage! 

We were faced with the prospect of eventually having to go back down that 
same trail as it was a dead end, so I headed off trail through a clear cut forest area 
to a power line that I followed back down to town. Needless to say, it was a 
very rough ride. We headed straight to the Police Station to report the situation, 
and I told them that they could probably intercept them as they came back 
down the logging road. Being a small town, they actually responded right away, 
and sure enough, within a few minutes the two Hulks came into view. There was 
only one officer available at first, but he managed to arrest and cuff the blonde 
Hogan. The other Hulk took off through a field and tossed his rifle away within 
our sight.

It turned out that these two were well-known as local felons and had been in a 
lot of trouble before, and had opportunities to lift weights in prison. The reason 
the blonde Hulk was so easy to catch, getting back to Avon's, was the fact that 
apparently many of the bullets that were fired at them bounced off and hit the 
blonde Hogan in the legs several times!

After this was all over, I examined the two rear tires very carefully, and I could 
not find any noticeable marks. The Avon's tread is mostly good for rocks and 
mud, and I find them to be relatively stiff when it comes to rolling resistance, but 
boy, bullet-proof?

I still have this same set of tires on my Series III now, and those were the tires 
that got me off that slippery mountain in Colorado at 13,500 feet this summer. 
So gang, there are better tires out there with more sophisticated tread patterns to 
be had, but would they pass the bullet test? I think I'll keep this set for a bit 
longer.

Walt Pokines

Series Rover and Avon Fan

Tipp City, Ohio

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:35:56 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: LR Ad Sighting

Saw an ad for American Express last night --  You know, one of those ones 
where they get some guy from some other company to talk about how wonderful 
it is to accept/use the Amex card.  Anyway, didn't catch who it was, but it 
was some relief or adventure travel company or something, and they had two 
110's(?) clearly featured throughout the ad.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:35:34 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Land Rover Collectibles

Well, I finally found one.  I collect coins (primarily Fugio Cents, but I 
like everything) and one day, about three years ago, I was thumbing through 
the Krause World Coins book and I happened to stop on Tonga.  

It seems that in 1985, Tonga issued a set of 4 coins to commemerate the 100th 
Anniversary of the Automobile Industry.  (I hadn't realized it had been 
around that long either.)  Anyway, they chose different British cars to grace 
the reverse of these coins.  

One has a new Rolls-Royce in the forground, with an older model behind it, 
one has an MG GT(?) with an MG TA(?) in that background, (I forget the third) 
and one has a Range Rover with a series vehicle (SI?) in the background!

So of course I had to have one.  Well, after searching on-line, checking coin 
shows, looking at coin clubs, and asking dealers, I finally found one.  If I 
can get a good picture of it, I'll definitely have it scanned and upload it 
my web page.  

The surprising thing is, it's not a low mintage or otherwise rare coin.  I 
paid $4.50 for mine (and for one of the MG ones).  It shouldn't be this hard 
to find.  But it is.  So if you see one, get it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:35:27 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Land Rover Toy News (Long)

I was thinking that maybe we should get together and make up a numbering 
system for all the different Land Rover models out there?  (Like the original 
little matchbox is #12-A (I think) amongst matchbox collectors; we could just 
number/identify LR's only.) 

Perhaps something like this (off the top of my head):

               LR-DY-01-A
    .----------'  |   | '--------------.
Denotes      .----'   '----.       Accessory,
a Land   Indicates    Sequential   Color, or  
Rover    the Mfr.     number for   other 
                      this model   variation.
                                  

For example, the one sitting on my cubicle wall would be something like:

LR-CI-05-C  - Corgi 110 in Green - CI = Corgi, it's about the 5th Corgi model 
(casting) I've seen, and this is about the 3rd paint job I've seen for this 
one.  (There's also the same vehicle as a red Fire van, and in yellow as an 
AA service van.)

LR-MB-10-F  - Matchbox 90 yellow Park Ranger - MB = Matchbox, 10thish model, 
about the 6th color scheme.

LR-MJ-01-E  - Majorette 90 Nasa - MJ = Majorette, haven't seen too different 
castings, but several variations on this one.

LR-MB-03-A  - Matchbox #12 Safari - About the 3rd or so model MB did, and the 
variation that I've seen most often (Blue, with light brown luggage.)

If we took the list that Lloyd Allison has compiled (check out his web page 
if you haven't seen it yet!), and kept adding to it, then assigned a number 
to each model, we would have a really good reference!  Any thoughts?

Are there any standards for MFR codes?  If not, perhaps:

123456789 123456 123456789 123456 123456789 123456 123456789 12345
BR - Britains    CI - Corgi       DY - Dinky       EF - Efsi-Holland
EK - Eko         ER - Ertl        HL - Heller        HW - Hot Wheels
LS - Lesney      MJ - Majorette   MB - Matchbox      SL - Solido
WK - Wiking      AF - Airfix      UN - Unknown

I know there are others; these are just the mfr's represented in my (small) 
collection.  But you get the idea.

Anyway, sorry for rambling!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:35:20 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Land Rover Toy News (Long)

A couple of weeks ago, there was a big collectibles show here in San 
Francisco, California at the famous Cow Palace.  So I was a bad boy.  In 
addition to the usual Donald Duck stuff for my girlfriend's (incredible) 
collection, I picked up a few new model Land Rovers.  

Here's what I got:

A Mersey Tunnel Police SI 86" from Dinky.  It's red, and very similar (same 
mold?) to the little fire truck recently put out by Matchbox.  I saw one of 
these almost immediately as I walked the door, but at $100.  That being way 
out of my budget, I passed on it.  The one I bought was in great shape and 
only $30.

I got another early Corgi SII breakdown truck, minus the shell that goes over 
the pickup bed, but with an intact tow arm and hook!  This is the only one I 
have with the hook, except for the later SII that I have MIB.  It was marked 
at $8, so I had to get it.  

I also got a Dinky SI (#340?) in green, with matching trailer.  This is a 
little larger scale than the others, and is a topless 86", with a driver and 
the spare mounted behind the driver's seat.  It was missing four tires so the 
guy gave me a good price on it, then I walked up the next aisle 3 or 4 booths 
and bought tires for it from a dealer of replacement tires and wheels.  
(Actually, he gave Rachel a good deal on it; she bought it for me.)

And last, but certainly nowhere near least, I got a Dinky Bomb Disposal Unit, 
MIB!  This is a 109" hardtop that comes with stickers and accessories for 
taking care of annoying bombs.  I probably paid a bit more than I should have 
at $60, (and certainly more than I could afford,) but what the heck, you only 
live once!

So then Weekend before this last one was the Palo Alto British Car Meet in 
Palo Alto, California.  I had just ordered a whole lotta parts for British 
Pacific to bring to the meet, so I wasn't really looking for models.  

Apparently, though, I wasn't looking at all, because I got home and my 
brother (newly hooked on LR's) presented me with two I didn't have!  One was 
a white 109" 4-door by Solido in a very nice display case.  Stan said he got 
me that one because its exactly what he's looking for.  

The other one, Stan said it took him about 5 minutes to figure out why BP had 
it there.  It's obvious he's not yet obsessed, because I spotted the Land 
Rover in the background instantly.  It's a model kit of a Bloodhound Missile, 
and includes the model Land Rover shown in the background of the picture.

btw, all $ are US$ and MIB=Mint In Box.

I have a few models to trade for them what's interested.  

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:41:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Which Gasket Sealant?

Rick wants to seal it..

> Next oil change (Slll / 88") I'm gonna pull the oil pan for thorough
> cleaning,  painting and new gasket.   Also gonna drain, clean and regasket
.....snip......
> What are some of you LRO tech types finding the most success with?

I've used the "Avaiation Gasket Sealer" with good results. Have also used a
brand called "Indian Head" gasket sealer. It's almost the same consistancy.
These work well if you have a good gasket to work with. Hylomar works well
too although I think it's a bit harder to work with on large areas. If I
have to make an quick repair or I don't have a gasket, the "blue goo" is the
best thing going.

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 725-1859                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol ("Sidney")      
              7          1972 Ser III 88 Petrol ("Fern")
           #:-}>         1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol (Parts is Parts)

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:42:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Open Heart Surgery, (L.R. Style)

James asks...

> There are 4 big nuts and bolts attaching the gearbox to the bell 
> housing...
> How does one go about undoing them?
/

Unbolt the bellhousing from the engine.....

> Do I have to remove the bell housing from the engine first?
> (Also the bit of the bulkhead which gives access to it?)
/

Yes and yes...

> If I remove the bell housing from the engine...  does the clutch 
> mechanism need resetting in place?
/

No... Three of the bolts holding the bellhousing on also hold the clutch
hydraulics on. If you are pulling the engine, you don't have to do anything
else with the clutch slave cylinder. 

At this point, if you *don't* have any sort of reference manual, you should
probably get a Haynes manual. The best part about Haynes books is that they
take pictures of the procedure and then reference the pictures in the text.
If you don't have anything else to go by, the Haynes books are good to have
- and they are cheaper than buying the factory manuals.

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 725-1859                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol ("Sidney")      
              7          1972 Ser III 88 Petrol ("Fern")
           #:-}>         1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol (Parts is Parts)

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
 Input:  messages 31 lines 1635 [forwarded 101 whitespace 393]
 Output: lines 1419 [content 892  forwarded 67 (cut  34) whitespace 379]



    
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Photos & text Copyright 1990-2011
	Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved. 

Digest Messages Copyright 1990-2011 by the original poster or/and
	Bill Caloccia,
	All rights reserved.