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Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:40:28 -0400
From: Ron Taylor <rtaylor@coil.com>
Subject: Re: Personal Freedom

At 9:34 PM 9/14/95, ecoethic@rcinet.com wrote:

 > who never engage in anything risky, well, get a life!
 >
 > Walt Pokines

Allow me to expound a bit on my previous posting.  I practice emergency=
 medicine in a tertiary, urban referral center seeing 65,000+ patients per=
 year.  Needless to say, my job is stressful and requires immediate, tough=
 decisions.  Personally, I have sky dived, scuba dived, ridden motorcycles,=
 hiked, canoed, and done all manner of activities sane people would consider=
 marginal at best.  When I do anything risky, I see to it that myself and my=
 equipment are properly prepared.  This is the reason I bought the rover.

If you are going to take chances, you should do everything reasonable to=
 minimize the risk.  Taking foolish risks is just that--foolish.  Driving=
 about alone in the rover is nowhere near like diving alone.  Part of=
 accepting responsibility for one's actions is to first act responsible. =
 (e.g.,.  It is ok to drive alone in the rover but not to drive drunk.)

The extent of minimizing risk depends on cost/benefit analysis.  Making=
 infants traveling on airliners use safety seats is not cost effective given=
 the enormous cost and small benefit.  Making people wear seat belts is very=
 cost effective.  Who makes the decisions as to what we do and don't have to=
 do?  In the U.S., theoretically, we the people do.  If we don't like the=
 laws, we have avenues of change.

Regardless of the law, I have no right to act irresponsibly or recklessly. =
 I do not advocate repression of individuals rights to expression and I=
 champion a person's right to be "true to themself."  There are, however,=
 necessary restrictions.  I cannot drink alcohol and drive.  I cannot=
 pollute the environment.  I cannot rob, murder, etc.

"Wisdom and good judgement are honed by solving tough situations
independently"

The council of others is what allows us to begin to make our own choices. =
 Without teachers, we are savages.  What is this list but the electronic=
 equivalent of the campfire?  If you have a problem with your rover, you=
 solve it (perhaps with knowledge gained here) and then share your knowledge=
 on the list.  If you are unable to solve it, you come here also.

        "Society might have to pay higher insurance premiums because of
the foolish actions of others...but so be it."

Actually, scratch "society" and put in "you and I."  Think about applying=
 this statement to pollution, crime, etc. and the weakness of the argument=
 should be apparent.  A similar argument would be that I like to be risky=
 and drive off the established path.  If I tear up the country side, that's=
 just the cost of my expressing my individuality.

with regards...

   Ron Taylor

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:47:20 GMT -0600
Subject:       Re: Rover tire sightings

> >Over here in OZ we have a tyre made by McLeod called the Land Rover and
> >believe it or not, had Land Rover blazened on the tyre for all to see.  Have
> >you ever seen a "Jeep" tyre!!!!  :-)
> Actually yes. They are quite common. The Goodyear "Wrangler". Sorry.

Maybe so, but Goodyear is using a D90 in their lastest ad for the Wrangler. 
Just saw it in one of the 4x4 mags at the store (I don't buy them anymore, 
not enough LR stuff). 

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 15 Sep 95  7:59:22 EDT
Subject: Re: 109 Shock Measurements Needed

The distance on mine is approximately 16", but realize that
this changes with spring health and so on. Collapsed length
on one of the stock shocks is approximately 11.25" to the
center of the upper mount from the base of the bottom bolt
the bottom bolt is 2.25" long, and longer would be a bt of trouble to fit...

     Alan

------------------------------

From: William Terry <wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com>
Subject: IIA military lights
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:03:28 -0400 (EDT)

How are/were the various lighting options used on the IIA militaries? My 
switch gives me just tails, tails/front markers, tails/front 
markers/headlamps to the left, and light under body in front of rear 
xmember, same light/front markers to the right. The latter are marked 
conv. and s.conv. I guess for convoy lighting.

TIA, Bill

______________W__i__l__l__i__a__m_____D__a__n_____T__e__r__r__y______________
  How do we acquire wisdom along with all these shiny things? (David Brin)

  wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com
  http://glenfiddich.minerva.bah.com:8062/CyberJungle.html
  MINERVA Development Team, Booz, Allen & Hamilton

------------------------------

From: "James" <James.Curtis@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date:          Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:00:42 GMT0BST
Subject:       Oil, Oil Everywhere!

Hi,
      My 1960 series II  has leaked various oils from various places 
since I have purchased it...  It has not been used for 25 years  
(occasionally moved)  This means two things...  One, the whole car is 
in excellent condition! Two, everything made of rubber has perrished. 
It actually has 25000 GENUINE on the clock!

Well... I managed to put up with having to fill the gearbox and 
engine with oil as frequently as filling the tank with petrol, and 
have managed to park the car outside someone elses house!  

However these leaks got REAL BAD!

In short...  

I have decided to take the car off the road for a couple of weeks and 
get it totally sorted!

However...  I am relatively new to this Land Rovin business so I was 
hoping if I listed what needed replacing I could rely on the wise 
beans on the list to warn me of pitfalls to avoid etc...

TO DO LIST:

Firstly, the big leak!
between the main gearbox and the bell housing...
Is this just a matter of replacing a gasket?
(Yes I know that that is NOT a simple task )

Replacing oil seals:

Front main bearing
pinion on front Diff
rear output shaft on transfer box
rear wheel hub 
front output shaft on transfer box

And last job on the list for today...

Second gear doesn't work.
Don't just reccommend another gearbox...  It has done this before and 
then mysteriously started working again a month later.  The problem 
is that it will not click into second gear properly,  It will engage 
if you hold it in but the stick is not travveling as far down as it 
should.

Any Ideas?

I know there is a lot of info needed here, and I appreciate the time 
that anyone may spend to tell me helpful hints etc,  All in all, I 
probably could do these jobs without assistance but I am sure 
anything that you have to say will mean I can do the job quicker and 
with less mistakes!

Thanks In Advance:

                              James

James.Curtis@Newcastle.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: Grahame.Harden@BRI.NRC.CA
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 09:28:51 -0400
Subject: Seats

>      1) I'm 6' 4" and find that the seating is way too close to drive in 
>      comfort (& safety!).  The only half way decent solution is to remove 
         [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>      arrangement can be moved back approx. 6 inches ? or are there any 
>      ideas/suggestions to help save my back !

My (cheap) solution, though not a complete one, was to remove the
standard subframes from the seats right across the bench. The frames
were then bolted straight to the seat box. This gave me another inch,
making a huge difference.

The only problem is that short people can't drive the car so well,
since the seats (obviously) won't adjust. Since no-one ever wants
to ride in my heap, let alone drive it, this is a solution I can
live with.

Grahame

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:27:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Haslam <haslam@alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: 88 RR: A Tale of EFI

What the Worshop Manual doesn't tell you!

The EFI light came on a few days ago.  I checked all resistances I could 
(per my own diagrams, now updated on lloyd's wedsite).  All was AOK.  

The worshop manual says "remove the hood on the back of the ECU connector 
- just undo two screws".  There are no screws on mine, so how do I remove 
the hood?  Still don't know.

Time to try putting things back together.  Started her up: EFI light was off!
Rovers North tells me that disconnecting the battery for a few minutes 
can solve the problem.

Still don't know how to reach the back of the ECU connector without doing 
damage.

Next time, I will consider tilting the seat back, runners and all, to 
gain access to the ECU.

...chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:35:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Haslam <haslam@alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: 88 RR: Rust

Other RR residents of the salt belt may be interested:

The pad under the mat for the front passenger was soaking on a dry day.  
I think I found the source of the wet: there is a plate over the hole in 
the firewall where the steering column penetrates it in England (and 
elswhere).  This plate is held on by four tack-welds, one per side, 
rather than a continuous line of weld all round.  I will silicone all round.

...chris

------------------------------

From: BobandSueB@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:20:39 -0400
Subject: re: timing marks

>Rob Bailey Asks,
>I was trying to set the timing on my 63 88" 2.25L petrol and can't find >the
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 11 lines)]
>it is with the valves, but I doubt that I can set it very accurately
>without a proper mark. I suspect that the timing is a little too
>advanced, as the engine overheats slightly at high revs.

>Anybody have a better method of finding an accurate way to find and >mark
TDC?

Hi, 
It sounds like you have a Late SIIA engine and if no notch in the front
pulley, an older pulley.
You should get a pulley for newer engine that has the notch such as 1969 
then you can time it fine.
I recently rebuilt a 65 and while doing it, I put the newer timing marks up
front, and they agree with the rear one which is very difficult to get a
timing light on even when you can find it.

good luck,
Bob B

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:35:25 -0500
From: sac4@cornell.edu (Stephen A. Church)
Subject: Re: Rover tire sightings

>> >Over here in OZ we have a tyre made by McLeod called the Land Rover and
>> >believe it or not, had Land Rover blazened on the tyre for all to see.  Have
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 17 lines)]
> Four wheel drive allows you to get
> stuck in places even more inaccessible.

I'm not sure about Goodyear, but I did see a D90 used for a BF Goodrich ad
in Petersen's.  It was one of their ads with everything (vehicle and
surroundings) the same color except for the tires.  I think the color of
choice was yellow(?).  Also, a few pages after that, there's an ad with a
Series LR in action.  Can't recall what the ad was for though.  FWIW, last
night I discovered a new web page (thanks to Yahoo --
Recreation:Automobiles:Four Wheel Drive) featuring a D90 at:

http://snark.wizard.com/4wa/

Saw a Series ?? (88) on the way to work Wednesday.  Wish I could afford one!

Steve Church

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:40:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Brown <DB@CHO004.CHO.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: Oil, Oil everywhere (and not a drop of ink)

James,

>       My 1960 series II  has leaked various oils from various places 
> since I have purchased it...  It has not been used for 25 years  
> (occasionally moved)  This means two things...  One, the whole car is 
> in excellent condition! Two, everything made of rubber has perrished. 
> It actually has 25000 GENUINE on the clock!

    It's better than that.  I also have a 1960 Series II 88 that came
    with just about every part on it original.  And all those many seals
    that stand between your 90W and the ground are *LEATHER*!  Pretty
    cool, actually.  Of course, after such a long time, and even worse
    after having sat for a long time, they simply don't flex and seal
    like they ought to.

    I went through and changed every one of them before it was over:

    -- Axle pinion seals- might as well put a "speedi sleeve" on the
    pinion while you're at it, since it probably has a groove in it and
    this is far cheaper than buying a new pinion!  (Get 'em locally or
    Rovers North will sell them to you...)

    -- Transfer case rear output shaft (have to take off the parking
    brake assembly)

    -- Transfer case front output shaft.

    -- Hub seals

> Firstly, the big leak!
> between the main gearbox and the bell housing...
> Is this just a matter of replacing a gasket?

    There is a bushing that the throwout assembly rides in that's
    somewhat unique (I believe) to the suffix A or pre-suffix A gearbox,
    which you almost certainly have.  Again, RN can supply this (I
    believe it's NLA through Rover, but they have had some machined up
    custom.)  Or your rear oil seal on your engine.

> Second gear doesn't work.
> Don't just reccommend another gearbox...  It has done this before and 
> then mysteriously started working again a month later.  The problem 
> is that it will not click into second gear properly,  It will engage 
> if you hold it in but the stick is not travveling as far down as it 

    Could easily be in the selector assembly outside the gearbox.  If
    you take your tunnel off you can see it in action.

    Duncan

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:55:46 GMT -0600
Subject:       re: timing marks

> >Rob Bailey Asks,
> >I was trying to set the timing on my 63 88" 2.25L petrol and can't find >the
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> >advanced, as the engine overheats slightly at high revs.
> >Anybody have a better method of finding an accurate way to find and >mark

 Bob B replies: 
Snip
> You should get a pulley for newer engine that has the notch such as 1969 
> then you can time it fine.
Snip

A cheaper way would be to set it to TDC via the flywheel marks, then 
mark your pully at TDC and then file a groove in it.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:58:15 -0500
From: sac4@cornell.edu (Stephen A. Church)
Subject: My friend didn't Disco after all!

Thanks again for all the advice and information from the list about the D90
and the Disco (and the older Series LRs).  As you may recall, I reported
that my friend Chris had decided to go with the Disco over the D90, but
alas, he changed his mind again!  After seeing what the payments were going
be, he lost some of his enthusiasm.  We thought he had given up on LRs
altogether when he decided to look for some other, more affordable 4x4.  He
even went as far as test driving a lifted early 70's Bronco, but another
friend spotted a 94 D90 with low mileage (less expensive!) in a PA Auto
Finder and apparently, without telling any of us, Chris went down to PA,
drove it and signed his life away. ;-)  I'll believe it when I see it (and
I hope I do see it).  He said he was going to pick it up next Wednesday and
that he wanted to take it out next weekend to get muddy!  Sounds like fun
to me!  Up til now, my lifted Jeep (no offense) has been the lead vehicle
among the two or three 4x4s we've beeen taking out, but I'm looking forward
following someone for a change.  We should be able to explore the deeper
mud now with a little less apprehension.  (The other 4x4s are a stock Jeep
and a stock S-10 Blazer.) I'll keep you posted on who gets stuck first and
who pulls who out of what!

Any LR owners in Central/Upstate New York, I'm sure Chris would enjoy
meeting you and/or doing some off-roading with you sometime (as would I if
you can lower yourselves to riding with a J**p. ;-)

Steve Church
'75 Triumph Spitfire  *British*
'87 Jeep Wrangler     *  4x4  *

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:22:35 GMT -0600
Subject:       Re: Rover tire sightings

> I'm not sure about Goodyear, but I did see a D90 used for a BF Goodrich ad
> in Petersen's.

Ah, you're right. I wasn't really interested in the tires so I 
forgot. In the ad I saw they were giving you a pair of boots if you 
bought a set of tires. What a deal, huh? :-)

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

From: JEPurnell@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:21:51 -0400
Subject: Re: My first Land Rover (Insurance $)

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:32:52 -0400
Subject: Re: My first Land Rover 

> Also, I'm having trouble with my insurance co., they consider my Rover
"high risk"

Time to do some shopping.  A good independent agent should help.  I've been
insuring Lullubelle for 25 years now, and have never paid more than $600/yr
(full liability & collision w/$100 deduct, and 100% comprehensive & glass).
Tony
=======================================================================
I hope to have some positive input here in a few months.  Currently, with
full coverage on my D90, and $500 deductibles, I'm in the $1400/year range
for Los Angeles area. ( I'm 32, single, perfect record.)  I'll post my new
insurance cost when arrive in Wisconsin.  I am hoping to save enough to buy
another Rover, maybe a 4.0, or another Defender that I don't have to care
about and can drive it in the winter and let it rust, if that's what it wants
to do.    

You think I'm joking. . . 
John.
94 D90, the one with no rust yet.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 13:24:11 EDT
From: jib@big.att.com (Jan Ben)
Subject: 3.5 v8  hop-up goodies

Hello, List:

I am curious about the high-perf. goodies available for the v8.

I mean things like intake manifolds, headers, cams, whatever.

 1. how much of it is still interchangeble with Buick? cams? pistons?
	intake? exhaust? anything at all?

2. When and what models had EFI ? were they any good ? what kind EFI?

3. Any interesting turbo/supercharger setups?  I think I remember seeing
a 215 Buick turbo setup from the late 60's ?

Also, what is the diff from 3.5->3.9->4.?  Bore/stroke change, or completely
different castings?

Thanks
Jan
jib@big.att.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:51:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Personal Freedom

Hear Hear!!

Cheers

John Brabyn

------------------------------

From: JAMES_CIRBUS@HPATC2.desk.hp.com
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 13:55:00 -0400
Subject: D-90 7500 mi. service

Greetings,

Well, I closed my last inquiry with a question.  "p**sed on, or p**sed
off?"  I've come to the conclusion that it was both.

I wrote the digest posing the question about warranty issues relating to
broken zippers.  I included the amount I was charged for my 7500 mile
service.  I received more responses on my bill than the zipper issue.  It
seems that there are some substantial differences in charges between
dealerships.  Prices on the 7500 mi. service seem to range from $45 to
$245.  Quite a difference!  This merits a few questions.

I contacted the dealership, and was referred to the service manager.
After offering no good reasons for the cost difference, he closed the
conversation with the recommendation that I consider performing my own
service in the future.  Not quite what I expected.

I just thought I would pass this information on.  (I'll pass it on to
LRNA, for what it's worth)

Jim Cirbus
Sunbury, OH
94 D-90

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:13:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: 88 RR: A Tale of EFI

On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Chris Haslam wrote:

> What the Worshop Manual doesn't tell you!
> The EFI light came on a few days ago.  I checked all resistances I could 

You'll often find disconnecting the battery will turn the light back off. 
If there's a "real" problem it'll come back on again. If so, you can't 
always tell everything from checking out the resistances as per the 
manual; get the dealer to plug in his little black box and read the fault 
code while the light is still on. (On 90 and later models there is a 
readout of the fault code behind the ECU; so you don't need the dealer's 
gadget;I wish mine had it!!)

------------------------------

From: mcbinc@world.std.com (Monty C Brandenberg)
Subject: RE: Green Oil Pressure Light IIA
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:15:56 -0400 (EDT)

Apparently normal behavior.  If you buy one of the new-design oil
pumps from RN, you'll receive something with the oil pickup rotated
about 90 degrees and moved forward a bit.  Since putting one of
these in, I still get a dipping oil-gauge when braking but the
light hasn't come on even when a quart down.

m

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:27:35 -0400
From: rvirzi@gte.com (Robert A. Virzi)
Subject: More oil change stuff, Come-a-long question

I happened to be glancing through a Northern Hydraulic catalog (okay, I was
reading and drooling over almost every page), when I came upon a device
called a "Topside Oil Changer."  It is a 2 gallon metal can with a bicycle
pump and a tube sticking out of it.  Supposedly you stick the 'clear vacuum
tube' in the dipstick tube and use the 'powerful vacuum pump action' to
suck 'dirty oil and sludge' out of the pan.  Cost is shown at $34.99, item
number 33226-J.  Northern's number is 800.533.5545 or fax +1.612.894.0083
for people who can't use the 800-number.

They also have a 8000# come-a-long with a 12' cable for $28.99,
complimenting snatch block for $23.99.  Now, 12' of pull isn't a lot, but
the real question is, is it enough?  The electric winches in the catalog
(superwinch and ramsey) at $400 - $500 are nice, but that's a heck of a lot
more scratch.  So could someone more experienced at getting stuck venture a
guess as to what percentage of the stuck cases a come-a-long would get you
out relative to an electric winch?  Is it half as useful?  Thanks.

-Bob

  rvirzi@gte.com             Think Globally. ===
  +1(617)466-2881                            === Act Locally!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:32:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Haslam <haslam@alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: 88 RR: A Tale of EFI

> > The EFI light came on a few days ago.  I checked all resistances I could 
> You'll often find disconnecting the battery will turn the light back off. 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> always tell everything from checking out the resistances as per the 
> manual; 

I'd still like to check the voltage from the air flow sensor.  Do you have a
screw-less (not screw-loose!) shell over the connector?  If so, have you
managed to get it off?

Does anyone know whether the dealer's box of tricks is available, and how
much it costs?  I have an inherent distrust of dealers (having fixed what
they mucked up), and the local one thinks he is servicing a Rolls Royce, by
the prices he charges, etc.

...chris

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:38:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Brown <DB@CHO004.CHO.GE.COM>
Subject: Green oil pressure light

All,
    Sorry if this is a repeat, can't remember if I mentioned this in my
    first reply:

    The light comes on at *18* PSI, which is a pretty healthy safety
    margin for an idiot light!!  (Amaerican cars' lights come on at a
    few PSI, meaning "your engine is toast"...)

    SO do make sure your gauge works, so you can know for sure...but if
    all you have is the light, it's not at all disasterous if it comes
    on under the rapid-deceleration scenario, and only then.

    Duncan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: 88 RR: A Tale of EFI

On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Chris Haslam wrote:

> I'd still like to check the voltage from the air flow sensor.  Do you have a
> screw-less (not screw-loose!) shell over the connector?  If so, have you
> managed to get it off?

I'd have to have another look at mine; I did do all the tests once so 
must have got the shell off somehow.

Re the air flow sensor -- I got my EFI light to come on once by choking 
the engine to death by putting my hand over the air intake -- just for 
the boyish fun of it. So I know the light can come on if something makes 
the ECU think there's something wrong with the sensor, even though there 
isn't.

Another time it came on after I ran the tank dry, which is apparently not 
uncommon -- nothing was wrong.

Another time it came on it turned out to be an oxygen sensor in need of 
replacement. If I disconnected the battery, the light would stay off for 
a while, then come back on again, so I had to take it more seriously than 
my usual policy of assuming it was only Lucas pulling my leg. as is 
usually the case.

> Does anyone know whether the dealer's box of tricks is available, and how
> much it costs?  I have an inherent distrust of dealers (having fixed what
> they mucked up), and the local one thinks he is servicing a Rolls Royce, by
> the prices he charges, etc.

I'd be interested in this too -- I'd love one. Unfortunately it requires 
a different module of some sort for almost every model year, as they kept 
changing the ECU all the time, getting its tentacles into more and more 
of the vehicle's functions.

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:49:19 -0400
From: bbonner@mail.htp.com (Brian Bonner)
Subject: Re: So it begins...

>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>Um, I still a bit of a newbie to Rovering.  If, for whatever reason, an 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>of Land Rovers escorting the coffin which is, of course, being carried by 
>a shiney (!) black Land Rover hearse.

hehehe! I like it!
                     
Brian Bonner                    ++++++==\
'94 Red D90                     |---/|---\___
                                | _  |D90|_  |}
                         * * * ==(_)"""""(_)""

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Brabyn <brabyn@skivs.ski.org>
Subject: Re: Personal Freedom

On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Ron Taylor wrote:

A similar argument would be that I like to be risky=
>  and drive off the established path.  If I tear up the country side, that's=
>  just the cost of my expressing my individuality.

I don't think Walt Pokines or anyone else on this list advocates tearing
up the countryside. I am tired of seeing off-pavement travel equated with
tearing up the countryside in the propaganda of the land closure advocates; 
let's not do it here as well. 

Cheers

John Brabyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:11:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Haslam <haslam@alcor.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: 88 RR: A Tale of EFI

> Re the air flow sensor -- I got my EFI light to come on once by choking 
> the engine to death by putting my hand over the air intake -- just for 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
> Another time it came on after I ran the tank dry, which is apparently not 
> uncommon -- nothing was wrong.

I didn't tell you what may be the first part of my tale.  My wife filled up
with gas, and the gas jockey didn't put the gas cap on properly.  I happened
to see her swing into the driveway, spilling gas. (Watch those jockeys: I
do, except at 30 below!)  The EFI light came on the next time the car was
started - it was by me.  I drove the RR round the block to make sure I'd
make it home again, then departed across town.

...chris
88RR

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:22:33 -0400
From: bbonner@mail.htp.com (Brian Bonner)
Subject: Re: Personal Freedom

>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>At 9:34 PM 9/14/95, ecoethic@rcinet.com wrote:
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 17 lines)]
> hiked, canoed, and done all manner of activities sane people would consider=
> marginal at best.  When I do anything risky, I see to it that myself and my=
> equipment are properly prepared.  This is the reason I bought the rover.

Yup. I practice pre-hospital Emergency Medicine in NYC as a Paramedic. ;^)
Other then sky diving, ditto.

>If you are going to take chances, you should do everything reasonable to=
> minimize the risk.  Taking foolish risks is just that--foolish.  Driving=
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> accepting responsibility for one's actions is to first act responsible. =
> (e.g.,.  It is ok to drive alone in the rover but not to drive drunk.)

I do not quite get the driving alone reference..

>The extent of minimizing risk depends on cost/benefit analysis.  Making=
> infants traveling on airliners use safety seats is not cost effective given=
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> do?  In the U.S., theoretically, we the people do.  If we don't like the=
> laws, we have avenues of change.

Cost/benefit analysis, is no way to make Laws. Laws shouldn't be made that
are unconstitutional, regardless of their intent. Changing/removing Laws
from the books is a VERY difficult task. Laws shouldn't be a popularity
contest. We must stop bypassing the "Spirit" of the constitution.

>Regardless of the law, I have no right to act irresponsibly or recklessly. =
> infants traveling on airliners use safety seats is not cost effective given=

I agree. But, irresponsibly and reckless seem to be open to interpretation.

> I do not advocate repression of individuals rights to expression and I=
> champion a person's right to be "true to themself."  There are, however,=
> necessary restrictions.  I cannot drink alcohol and drive.  I cannot=
> pollute the environment.  I cannot rob, murder, etc.

Sure you can. You just go to jail/pay for it, if you get caught. This is
also different then what was being discussed. These are direct action items.
That si the Govt's job. To protect someone else from violating your rights
and freedoms.

>        "Society might have to pay higher insurance premiums because of
>the foolish actions of others...but so be it."
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
> and drive off the established path.  If I tear up the country side, that's=
> just the cost of my expressing my individuality.

There you go again. We were discussing the Govt. making laws that involve
indirect effect. Not direct effect. Polluting, Crime, ect.. is not the same
as Helmet and seatbelt laws that only protect you from yourself. Then
justify it by saying it will lower our Insurance rates, and be less of a
drain on the tax payers. Which, BTW, is hogwash. Example.. Helmet Laws. The
amount of people crippled in motorcycle accidents was actually a drop in the
bucket! Also Helmets increase the Risk of C-spine injury by adding extra
weight to your head. Kinda like a tennis ball on a pencil. What should have
been done is a mandatory Motorcycle safety course. Educate not legislate.
Same with seatbelts. Lets teach people to be better drivers! Then we will
have less accidents and injuries. Not to mention there are times when a
seatbelt could kill you! It's not right that the Govt. has taken our right
to make that choice away from us. Child seats? Yes. Protect children from
the stupidity of their parents. Thats correct legislation.

Lets all just realise, that to live requires risk. It seems that alot of
people grow up, move out, then want the Govt. to take over the role of Mommy
and Daddy. Not healthy. I'm not refering directly to you Mr. Taylor. I don't
agree with cost analysis. Thats going to destroy our environment thanks to
the Govt. The Govt. seems more concerned with controlling our lives then
actually doing their jobs. did you see what they are doing to the EPA? It's
too expensive to have clean air and safe drinking water? who is kidding
whom? If they were really looking out for our best interest and safety, they
would not be doing, what they are doing, right now. The Govt. has to go back
to the basics. Concentrate on the Spirit of the constituion, enforcing the
spirit of the Law(no loop holes), get rid of rediculous lawsuits, and stay
out of our lives as much as possible.

Well, time to get off my soap box. I guess I feel really strongly about this
subject. Frankly, I am angry at the Govt. I just want to live my life in
peace and PRIVACY.

                     
Brian Bonner                    ++++++==\
'94 Red D90                     |---/|---\___
                                | _  |D90|_  |}
                         * * * ==(_)"""""(_)""

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:42:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: David John Place <umplace@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Ducellier distributor

This may be of use to those who have a miss in their engine they can't 
find.  I have been plagued with a miss at load or at high rpm.  I changed 
carbs yesterday and still nothing improved.  I used the timeing light and 
fount that first the engine ran much better when advanced what looks like 
5+ degrees or more.  What really fixed the problem however was when I 
checked the dist. rotor block, the rotor shaft could be moved back and 
forth on the shaft.  The problem at least in my IIA is the slot the drive 
sits in which is like a thick washer with a matching slot does not 
capture the drive well enough.  If you pull up on the rotor a bit you can 
rotate the shaft a full 360 degrees.  I solved it at least temp. by 
letting off on the clamp ring and driving the dist. body down a fraction 
of an inch.  Now the dist shaft is tight.  Has anyone else noticed that 
the drive and slot don't really make a very positive connection?  If I 
changed to a Ducellier dist. what advantages would I notice.?  
I remember having this problem when I rebuilt the engine and I thought I 
had solved it by shimming up the drive a bit.  I would like to solve it 
once and for all if I can.  One other question.  With the Solex on I now 
get 20" of Hg at about 45MPH in 4th.  I used to get about 15" with the 
Rochester.  Does this indicate a better gas mileage can be expected? Dave 
VE4PN

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:44:38 +0800
From: dimitry@uask4it-101.Eng.Sun.COM (Dimitry Struve)
Subject: Rover tire sightings

I have been lurking on this alias for a while as I have just bought
a Land Cruiser instead of Rover. Before everyone drives me off with
sticks and stones for being an interloper, the Toyota did come with
four, brand new, "Land Rover" tires. Size LT255/70-16; probably too wide
for any proper Rover but actually 2 sizes smaller than the Toyota OEM
(275/70). 

For the right price I _might_ sell them if anyone in the SF Bay Area
is interested. I don't want to hassle with shipping. I have no idea
who makes these tires; they are M&S rated, 2+2 tread plies and 2 sidewall
plies, and have an asymmetrical highway type tread. And as I said,
less than 1000 miles on them, including about 10 miles offroad.

-Dimitry
dimitry@Eng.sun.com

------------------------------

From: Robert Watson (CNA) <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 13:11:50 TZ
Subject: Re: So it begins...

If you're under 4' tall (or long in the horizontal position) I'll be 
happy to carry you in the back of my (black) Disco. It would seem the 
least I could do. :-) I'll even wax it just for the occasion.

-- Bob W.
'95 Black Disco

  >of Land Rovers escorting the coffin which is, of course, being carried by
  >a shiney (!) black Land Rover hearse.

  hehehe! I like it!

 Brian Bonner                    ++++++==\
 '94 Red D90                     |---/|---\___
                                 | _  |D90|_  |}
                          * * * ==(_)"""""(_)""

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 15:55:21 -0700
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Spongy pedal - OK when the rear is clamped off?

In message <199509150147.UAA00195@butler.uk.stratus.com> Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus 
writes:

> Well this is the problem.
> My brakes are in two-pump mode. I calmp off the rar flex, and the pedal
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> My thought is that I have a hung/stuck piston in one of my cylinders. Any
> opinions or sage advice? -ajr

OOOOOMMMMMMM

Couple of things,

 your rear flex is in bad condition and it bulbs up under pressure (I had one 
that did that sort of thing.

 You have air back there.  Have you looked inside your rear cylinders?  May I 
assume the springs are still there.

As long as you can lock your shoes with the adjusters, you have the brake shoes 
on correctly.  If you couldn't I would say you had the front & rear shoes 
reversed on you rear brake shoes.  If they are reversed it would take two pumps.

                         
                       

TeriAnn Wakeman           FOR SALE:  1968 MGBGT. British racing green with
twakeman@apple.com                    black interior. overdrive. recently
                          US$ 2500    rebuilt engine & brakes. very minor       
                                      surface rust at paint scratches   
              
                         
                       

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 15:55:02 -0700
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: 109 Shock Measurements Needed

In message <199509150356.UAA26826@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> Jeremy Bartlett 
writes:
> Can anyone out there with a 109 with the wheels on do me a favor and 
> measure the distance on the rear shock from the top bolt to the base of 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
> Cheers,
> Jeremy

You can take the measurment off my car when you stop by to pick up the seats 
Sunday.
                             
              
                         
                       

TeriAnn Wakeman           FOR SALE:  1968 MGBGT. British racing green with
twakeman@apple.com                    black interior. overdrive. recently
                          US$ 2500    rebuilt engine & brakes. very minor       
                                      surface rust at paint scratches   
              
                         
                       

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:19:39 -0700
From: brutus@jurassic-45.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Curtis)
Subject: My new '95 Disco

Hello all, bought a '95 black Discovery 2 weeks ago, surfed the web for
interesting mild off-road type things todo, found a reference to a nice
little trip in Deer Valley south of Lake Tahoe California ...

Well, the trip report indicated a difficulty of 3 (out of 5), ok for
stock vehicles (like a Ford Explorer), had a great drive up to the trail
head (from Sunnyvale CA).

The trail started as a paved road through a park, then too a graded once
in awhile washboard gravel and sand road down to some alpine lakes (Blue
Lakes), then into a pine tree forest on a narrow sand and boulder trail.

Things were going along slowly without to much difficulty as i was getting
used to driving over the boulders. Came upon a 30-40' stream that looked
on the deep side, some canoe'ers indicated that others had been through,
went in and up the other side with out any problems (as the water at the
deepest point just started splashing up over the hood).

Now the trouble begain, back into the forest, the boulders were getting
bigger and the trail narrower. Started trashing the side running boards
and got hung up on the front diff once when we (a good friend that had
to get out more then a few times to check things out) decided that maybe
it's time to turn around as we had a long way to go and the trail didn't
look like it was getting any better.

Along came a few other vechicals in the other direction just as we
approached a side trail, as they passed a couple in their Defender
pulled off also to talk, they agreed with the trip report and convinced
us (or was that me?) to continue on as the worst was over ... YAH RIGHT.

Well, got hung up on the diff a few more times, totally pretzelled the
side running boards and got many scratches. Upon reaching the end of
the trail inspected the vehicle, looked roadable, headed back home.

Took the Disco to the dealer (San Jose Land Rover) for an inspection
and to take off the total useless side step bummpers, ended up with
just a bent front steering tie rod, broken steering dampener, and a
mashed rear torsion bushing. All in all not bad for what it went
though.

However, i'd hardly rate this trail as "ok for stock vehicles" as a
stock Explorer wouldn't of had a chance of making it!!! Also, all of
the others we encountered on the trail had much taller tires and which
could make most of the difference, as if i had mabe another 2 or 3 inches
i think i wouldn't of gotten hung up on the diff as much.

This brings me to a question that the dealer nor any 4x4 supplier has
been able to provide info for: Where can i get side nerf bars or nerf
steps (ie something a bit more substantial and with less sharp edges
then the stock side step boards) ???
--
Bruce W. Curtis                     brutus@Eng.Sun.COM
SunSoft, Internet Engineering       http://www.toaster.net/~brutus
2550 Garcia Ave, MS MTV05-44        (415)336-2652
Mountain View, CA 94043-1100        FAX:(415)336-6015

------------------------------

From: Robert Watson (CNA) <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 15:03:44 TZ
Subject: RE: D-90 7500 mi. service & LR Dealerships

| I contacted the dealership, and was referred to the service manager.
| After offering no good reasons for the cost difference, he closed the
| conversation with the recommendation that I consider performing my own
| service in the future.  Not quite what I expected.

You might see if the owner/General Manager (i.e. his boss) cares that 
his service manager is sending business away.

| I just thought I would pass this information on.  (I'll pass it on to
| LRNA, for what it's worth)
| conversation with the recommendation that I consider performing my own
| service in the future.  Not quite what I expected.
I've noticed some differences as well. I buy the "genuine" parts from 
the Portland, OR dealer (I live in the Seattle, Wash. area). They are 
about 20-30% cheaper than the Seattle area dealer for the same parts, 
and they'll ship them overnight, and they don't charge sales tax. OTOH, 
the service dept. here in Seattle has been very helpful. They've 
dropped me off and picked me up from work while the Disco was getting 
looked after. (maybe the $49 oil change includes cab fare ? :-) Lastly, 
the the sales dept. at the Portland dealer seems to be more "into" 
(i.e. knowledgable about) Rovers. In fact one of them owns an 88. In 
Seattle, I had to search to find someone who knew the difference 
between an open diff and a locker..

Typically, from what I understand, these 3 departments (i.e. Parts, 
Sales & Service) are run as 3 separate profit centers in the dealership 
by 3 different managers and variations in "style" from one to the next 
are not uncommon.

------------------------------

Subject: Amateur Radio and Land Rover
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 95 20:37:55 -0500
From: Gary Mitchelson <garym@cais.cais.com>

-- [ From: Gary Mitchelson * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

Amateur Radio and Land Rover seem to go toghether. In the Oct issue of the
Amateur radio magazine QST they have a picture of 2 hams ( father and son,
KB9CML & N9UFW) with their white Discovery (which has a prominent Warn
sticker on the fender). They traveled 7000 miles with it from Indiana (USA)
to Belize. They kept in touch on 20M.

QST in Feb 94 also had a Discovery and a 110 on the front cover from the 93
Camel pro where amateur radio was used for comms.

--
Gary Mitchelson                     
garym@racalrecord.com                                
N3JPU

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:21:57 +1000
From: Lloyd Allison <lloyd@cs.monash.edu.au>
Subject: green oil light

The 4cyl LR has the oil pick-up at the rear of the sump
so that you don't starve of oil going up hill (high power).
However, under braking, esp' on steep bush tracks, bouncing into a hole,
the pickup will come out of the oil - green light flicks on.
It's worse if the oil level is low of course.
It can't do the engine any good, but if it's momentary, at low revs
it shouldn't do much harm either,  it always worried me,
but it was still chugging on at 100K miles when we sold it (sob).

I have heard of people playing around with baffles in the sump,
but I don't know the result  [not recommended I think].
The 4cyl (S1-S3 anyway) sump has the deep point to the rear and
a rounded front; I always wondered if a deep more sharply defined
bowl would have been better.
Fortunately the oil-pump is in the sump - self priming.

On a related note:  Holden (GM) 6cyls come with various sumps
with the deep bowl either front, mid of rear
(can anyone help my memory here?)  and one of these (front???)
is a real no-no for LRs operating on steep hills.

I note that Land-Rover now test their engines at full power at 45 degree
angles for long periods.

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: 15 Sep 95 23:31:28 EDT
From: "BENJAMIN G. NEWMAN" <71773.3457@compuserve.com>
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: landrover.team.net: host not found)

--------------- Forwarded Message ---------------

From: 	Mail Delivery Subsystem, INTERNET:MAILER-DAEMON@compuserve.com
Date: 	Fri, Sep 15, 1995, 19:07

RE: 	Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: landrover.team.net: host not
found)

        id SAA13302; Fri, 15 Sep 1995 18:57:55 -0400
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 18:57:55 -0400
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@compuserve.com>
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: landrover.team.net: host not
found)

The original message was received at Fri, 15 Sep 1995 18:57:51 -0400
from mailgate@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had delivery problems -----
lro@landrover.team.net  (unrecoverable error)

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 lro@landrover.team.net... Host unknown (Name server: landrover.team.net:
host not found)

   ----- Original message follows -----
        id SAA13298; Fri, 15 Sep 1995 18:57:51 -0400
Date: 15 Sep 95 18:55:25 EDT
From: "BENJAMIN G. NEWMAN" <71773.3457@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RR problem........HELP requested
Message-ID: <950915225524_71773.3457_EHL106-1@CompuServe.COM>

Friends,

As many of you know, I am the proud owner of a 1995 RR 4.0SE.  I have never
heard of anyone having any problems with theirs and I unhappily may be the first
to report a significant problem.  I presently have 7,000 miles on my Rover.  A
few days ago I was traveling approximately 5 mph over a speed bump when my
engine stopped and the computer said "check engine".  I turned the ignition off
and the computer read "gear box failure".  I restarted my engine without any
difficulty and drove approximately 4 minutesto my parking space without any
noticable problems and then I turned the engine off.  I called the dealer who
told me to have my Rover towed to the dealership.  After 2 days of trying to
diagnose the problem with their computer, and after they called tech services,
they came to the the conclusion that I had some sort of electrical problem such
as a faulty ground wire.  However after searching for this ground wire and using
the computer for other checks, they could find no such problem.  Today they tell
me I may have a faulty selinoid (sp) in the gear box and they want to replace
the whole transmission.  

Has anyone ever heard of such a problem or experienced this with their new RR?
Also, I would like to know when doing such a major repair, is the Rover ever
quite the same?  Should I consider asking for a new Rover sighting the Lemon
Laws?  

I would certainly appreciate hearing from my fellow Land Rover/Range Rover
collegues.  

Benjamin G Newman
   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 12:03:17 +0800 (WST)
From: TONY YATES  <tonyy@waalpha.wa.BoM.GOV.AU>
Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: landrover.team.net: host not found)

> Friends,
> As many of you know, I am the proud owner of a 1995 RR 4.0SE.  I have never
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 18 lines)]
> quite the same?  Should I consider asking for a new Rover sighting the Lemon
> Laws?  

I suggest trading it in on a SIIA. Never known one to 
have a problem with speedbumps!

-

------------------------------

From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@s101dcascr.wr.usgs.gov>
Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: landrover.team.
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 21:03:57 -0700 (PDT)

>>>>> BENJAMIN G. NEWMAN writes:

> Has anyone ever heard of such a problem or experienced this with their new RR?
> Also, I would like to know when doing such a major repair, is the Rover ever
> quite the same?  Should I consider asking for a new Rover sighting the Lemon
> Laws?  

Hello Dr. Newman,

I'm afraid that my Range Rover would qualify as the grandfather of yours, 
and as such I'm more likely to be worrying about seal leaks and the 
like.  However, allow me to make the following observation:  It sounds to 
me as though you have relatively little to worry about at this stage.  
The dealer seems to be going about the task of identifying your vehicle's 
problem in a systematic and professional manner, and the task of 
replacing the transmission, although not trivial, is reasonably routine.  
I would have to say that there is little evidence from your description 
of a lemon-like situation.  

Having said that, I'm sure that you will be keeping a full record of all 
events related to this incident, and if it is repeated several times, 
then you will have some basis for looking into replacement as a lemon.  

My life-long experience has given me a jaundiced view of dealers in 
general and I would not be inclined to trust any one of them (I've 
actually found one reliable dealer in my entire life, the Rolls Royce 
dealer in Denver.  Unfortunately they were working on an old Peugeot that 
I was driving at the time, but I can dream).  So watch them closely, 
document everything, and hopefully your 4.0 SE will be on the road again 
better than new.

Good Luck

Walter Swain      1967 IIA 109 Safari SW, petrol
Davis, CA         1988 Range Rover

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 21:59:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John C. White III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: So it begins...

Now, Bob.  You can fold the seat(s) down and fit a six-footer in there.  
It would be the least one could do for a brother or sister Rover.

Cheers!
John
'95 Discovery

On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Robert Watson wrote:

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
> If you're under 4' tall (or long in the horizontal position) I'll be 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 23 lines)]
>                                  | _  |D90|_  |}
>                           * * * ==(_)"""""(_)""

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 22:27:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John C. White III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: landrover.team.net: host not found)

Neither does a '95 Discovery 5spd.

Cheers!
John

On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, TONY YATES wrote:

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
> > Friends,
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 16 lines)]
> have a problem with speedbumps!
> -

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
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