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The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

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1 Easton Trevor [TEASTON@D17Parts
2 Easton Trevor [TEASTON@D11Movie Sightings
3 Lloyd Allison [lloyd@cs.136films
4 Easton Trevor [TEASTON@D26Viscosities
5 Easton Trevor [TEASTON@D16Parts
6 helmuth.guss@balu.kfunig25Re: Half Shaft Worries: Advice Please
7 Ray Harder [ccray@showme73Old Land-Rover Data (fwd)
8 jeremie@lutz.com (Jeremi25Re: Newbie Questions (Jeep GC, etc.)
9 "Tom Rowe" [TROWE@AE.AGE30 Re: films
10 DEBROWN@SRP.GOV 19Another S.P.O.T.
11 Alan Richer [Alan_Richer14Re: Another S.P.O.T.
12 Dixon Kenner [dkenner@em12Re: Insurance
13 rlarson@lsil.com (Rick L32Re: Newbie Questions
14 hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.co21Special Tags
15 growl@hsmpk14a-101.Eng.S16Re: Rover survival kit
16 Harincar@WWW.mooregs.com29Re: SPOTs
17 Harincar@WWW.mooregs.com25Odd story of points & ignition
18 Duncan Brown [DB@CHO004.29Pointy points
19 john@oaty.com (John Gran19Re: Splash-free oil chnages (well nearly)
20 Dixon Kenner [dkenner@em27Re: Parts (fwd)
21 "Rostykus, John" [john@m19Stupid Previous Owner Tricks
22 Mark Talbot [71035.3215@11NEW 109 rear shocks for sale
23 David John Place [umplac10Re: Parts
24 rob_hooper@om.cv.hp.com 80Not so whimpy diff's - Axles Yes! (long story)
25 RICKCRIDER@aol.com 23More RR Tire Info?
26 Tiffany Downing [tiffany39RE: Winch, Bushes
27 Tiffany Downing [tiffany27Movies
28 johnliu@earthlink.net (J26Tires for 109?
29 cs@crl.com (Michael Carr42Re: Tires for 109?
30 DieselBobI@aol.com 12Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...
31 ecoethic@rcinet.com 66Re: High Altitude Vapor Lock
32 "Walter C. Swain" [wcswa54Re: Tires for 109?
33 LANDROVER@delphi.com 18Re: films
34 Roger Sinasohn [sinasohn26Re: Rover survival kit
35 Roger Sinasohn [sinasohn88Re: Rog's misinformation......


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From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Parts
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 07:41:00 DST

Since it would be of great benefit to everyone. Why doesn't Dixon publish 
his parts list, all 47 gazzillion of them, as an FAQ? Or even a print out 
attached to the OVLR news.
This would be a better use of bandwith than flaming back and forth about who 
has more parts and where. BTW Who has the longest rods? (clutch thread joke 
:-) )

How about it Dixon. Miss Golightly may even forgive you for not mentioning 
her visit to Maine.

Trevor Easton

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From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Movie Sightings
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 07:46:00 DST

Last Night on CBC "And the band played on" about AIDS epidemic. Opening 
sequence has WHO Land Rover SIIA 109 in carrying health workers to African 
site in the rain.

Trevor Easton

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 21:53:26 +1000
From: Lloyd Allison <lloyd@cs.monash.edu.au>
Subject: films

Revised film list (long thin mail) follows.
Many thanks to all concerned.

A couple of people told me about  Ace Ventura ... ? a series ?
but I'm not quite clear on what the film's name is or will be.
Can anyone help?

A number of the entries are lacking
 . "reviews"
    e.g. was the Land-Rover's character adequately developed in the film, ....
 . date, stars, director
if you can contribute more details to:
   http://www.cs.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Films/index.html

Lloyd
-----

%T Africa Express
%T The Air Up There
%T Alice to Nowhere
%T American Ninja IV
%T An Angel at My Table
%T Babe
%T Bad Boys
%T Barbarians at the Gate
%T The Beast Must Die
%T The Black Werewolf
%T Born Free
%T This is Callan
%T Casper
%T Children of the Damned
%T Christian the Lion
%T Clarence The Cross-Eyed Lion.
%T Clear and Present Danger
%T Cliffhanger.
%T Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
%T Congo
%T Crack In The World
%T Cry Freedom
%T Daar doer in die Bosveld
%T Dark Horse
%T Darling Buds of May
%T Deadlock
%T Deadly Bees
%T Dr. No
%T Dr. Who
%T Dog Soldiers
%T The Dogs of War.
%T Dry White Season
%T Dumb and Dumber
%T An Elephant Named Slowly.
%T Emanuelle in Africa
%T Escape from Paradise
%T Four Weddings and a Funeral.
%T The Fourth Protocol
%T FX
%T Giant Behemoth
%T The Gods Must be Crazy.
%T Gold
%T Gold of the Amazon Women
%T Gorillas in the Mist
%T Guns at Batasi
%T Happy Birthday Wanda Jane
%T Heart-Beat
%T High Flight
%T High Risk
%T Highlander III
%T Hunt for Red October
%T Ice Cold in Alex
%T In a Faraway Place
%T Island of Terror
%T The Italian Job
%T Jake Speed
%T Judge Dredd
%T Killer Force
%T The Lair of the White Worm
%T Last Frontier
%T The Last Safari
%T Late for Dinner
%T Lethal Ninja
%T The List of Adrian Messenger
%T The Living Daylights.
%T Living Free
%T Love Affair
%T The Man With The Golden Gun.
%T Mogambo
%T Mountain Rescue
%T Navy Seals
%T Octopussy
%T Omega Man
%T Orca
%T Outbreak
%T The Pacific Ocean
%T Packin' It In
%T The Passenger
%T Passion and Paradise
%T Patriot Games.
%T Peter's Friends
%T The Player
%T Point Break
%T Pyrotechnics
%T Quiet Thunder
%T Red Dawn
%T Red Scorpion
%T Revenge of the Pink Panther
%T The Right Stuff
%T Romancing The Stone.
%T Roxanne
%T The Serpent and the Rainbow
%T The Serpent of Death
%T Shark aka Maneater
%T Sheena
%T Simba
%T 633 Squadron
%T Skeleton Coast
%T Sniper
%T The Specialist
%T Stand By Me.
%T Sudden Terror
%T Three Men and a Little Lady
%T The Treasure of the Four Crowns
%T The Ugly American
%T Watcher in the Woods.
%T White Heart, Black Hunter
%T Who'll Stop the Rain
%T Wild Geese
%T Wild Geese II
%T On Wings of Eagles
%T Wolf

   --- end of films ---

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From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Viscosities
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 08:10:00 DST

Dave asks about SAE viscosity ratings. These are an empirical rating based 
on the viscosities of light and heavy crudes. The limits initial chosen of 0 
and 100 were expected to cover all oils but since then oils outside the 
limits at both ends have been identified. A viscosity of 0W is equivalent to 
3,250 centiPoise at -30 Celsius and 3.8 centiStokes at 100 Celcius . 30 has 
a viscosity of between 9.3 and 12.5 centiStokes at 100 celcius. The 
viscosity of water is about 1 cS or 1cP and it doesnt vary much with 
temperature, except when it freezes. So 0W30 is thicker than water when cold 
and almost as thin when hot. ("So is blood" , Count Dracula ) When choosing 
a lubricant the temperature range through which it must operate is 
important. OK to have a nice thin oil for starting at -40, but do you want 
this watery mix in your engine at operating temperatures? A rather hazardous 
 trick employed by bush pilots of old was to dose the oil tank with gasoline 
when shutting down for the night. This kept the oil thin for starting and 
when the engine was warmed up the volatile components boiled off. No Smoking 
Please!!!
Personally for starting on cold mornings I prefer a block heater and stick 
to 10W40 as a minimum. Longevity wins over easy starting every time.

Trevor Easton

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From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Parts
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 08:37:00 DST

Catherine McLelland writes
 When do you throw things out
and when do you put them on a shelf in your garage "just in case."

You always put them on a shelf just in case.

Anybody need some slightly undersize standard pistons, 1/2 a half shaft, 
cracked manifold, good used head gaskets etc?

Trevor Easton

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:41:19 +0100
From: helmuth.guss@balu.kfunigraz.ac.at (Helmuth Guss)
Subject: Re: Half Shaft Worries: Advice Please

  Hallo Tony
   I think the Rover axle is not as bad as everybody thinks
   Thus the Diff on my SIIA broke a week ago I am shure it brokes because
   the previos owner made some mistakes when he rebuild it once.( two 
  of the 10 bolds holding the crown wheel were missing and the others
  sheared off)
   But if you need a stronger axel (LW-6cyl, off roading) it should be
  no problem for you to obtain one in UK. You could also go for a locking
  diff and reinforced shafts and using the Rover housing/diff.parts
  In the LRO- magazine you will find a lot of diff/axel specialists.
  The cheapest way on a LW-Land Rover would be to fit a Salysbury . 
  If you drive not off road the Rover diff would be strong enough(my
  opinion)
            Greadings from Austria
                                    Helmuth 
Helmuth Guss
Hauptstr.18
8435 Wagna
03452 82437
Austria

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:56:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Ray Harder <ccray@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Old Land-Rover Data (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 20:16:07 -0400
From: 74444.550@compuserve.com
Subject: Old Land-Rover Data

I clipped this from the Wall Street Journal sometime in 1982 while I was 
still driving a 1974 Series III 88" Station Wagon.  Perhaps it's still of some 
interest to The RoverWeb.

By the way, I saved the document with <CR>s only at the ends or paragraphs.
This way, it's easier to load into editors, etc. but harder to read unless you do 
some processng.

Jim Alton

************************************************************

Swamps Don't Stop British Land Rovers, But a Strike Might 

Vehicle Could Be a Casualty Of Work Stoppage at BL; Steak Cookout at Roadside 

BY BARRY NEWMAN 
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL 

SOLIHULL, England - Eighteen years ago, Tom Barton joined a party of adventurers in a desert trek from Egypt across the Sudan into Ethiopia. The group traveled by Land Rover, covering six miles in 12 hours when the sandstorms were at their worst. 

"Everybody before us perished," Mr. Barton says, "and two lots have perished since. We found one of the perished parties. It wouldn't be fair to say what type of vehicle they were using, but it wasn't a Land Rover, I'll tell you that." 

Tom Barton is a one-time railroad man who designed the Land Rover for the old Rover Co. after World War II. It was an ungainly machine: flat fenders, boxy cab, spare tire on the hood. But the Land Rover was built to survive, and survive it has-not merely in sandstorms and swamps, to say nothing of wartime battles, but through its parent company's financial perils and several decades of stiff international competition. 

Land Rover Ltd., based here on the outskirts of Birmingham, is a subsidiary of BL Ltd., the big government-owned automobile maker that used to be called British Leyland. BL is in trouble. It lost $417 million in the first half of this year. In the past three years it has shed 68,000 production workers That leaves 58,000, and they voted recently to go ahead with an all-out strike Nov. 1. the strike takes place, BL says, it will close down completely, and for good.  

Agricultural Workhorse  

Of all BL's subsidiaries, only two are stil making a profit. One is the spare-parts business, and Land Rover is the other. 

The Land Rover's exceptional success is anything but a triumph of skillful marketing, as its current makers readily concede That the vehicle exists at all today is largely accidental. It was first built, more out of desperation than by design, when Rover's steel ration was cut after the war. Needing a substitute for its decorous sedans, the company hit upon an aluminum-bodied agricultural workhorse, fitted with plow and harrow. Rover couldn't afford new pressing machines, so the Land Rover was fashioned of flat plates welded together. 

"I was told it would last only two or three years," says Mr. Barton, who, at 66 years of age, is still a consultant to the company. "My motto in those days was, 'The Land Rover goes on despite upper management.'" 

To the surprise of upper management, the Land Rover went on and on. It became [line art LR_WALSJ.TIF here] the British Commonwealth's favored four-wheel-drive vehicle, not least because its aluminum body lasted when its steel rivals began looking like colanders. More than 80% of Land Rovers came to be exported, a figure that still stands. The armies and police forces of 65 countries buy the vehicle; it has been wrapped in armor, converted into fire engines and hovercraft, fitted with tires four feet in diameter, mounted on tracks to pull railroad trains, and filled with foam and floated. 

There are 27 models of Land Rover today. Over the years, more padding was added to the seats; the spare tire migrated to various positions; and the metal radiator grille gave way to plastic (to the great annoyance of campers who had become accustomed to using the metal grille as a barbecue). But all of today's models look roughly like the first Land Rover. "We believe in evolution," Mr. Barton says. "We've done it gradually."  

What didn't evolve at Land Rover were new markets. Well into the 1950s, the vehicle was still considered a temporary product. As paved roads spread through the developing world in the 1960s, the marketing department in Solihull was predicting the Land Rover's imminent demise. Production settled down to a steady 54,000 a year; advertising was eschewed. 

In the 1960s and 1970s, the market for four-wheel-drive vehicles did the opposite of what Land Rover's people predicted. It grew. By 1980 it had reached 850,000 cars a year. But Land Rover continued to produce at its historic level. In 1969, the company introduced the Range Rover, a far more comfortable and even more capable version of the original. Its production was limited to 200 a week. The waiting time for delivery of  

Land Rover's products stretched to 18 months. 

The Japanese rushed to fill the vacuum, seeing the four-wheel-drive market as their automobile industry's opening wedge in the Third World. By 1980, the Japanese controlled 43% of the world market, taking over such long standing Land Rover stamping grounds as Australia. Toyota alone was selling 116,000 of its four-wheel-drive Land Cruisers. 

"There was a boom in the leisure market, in oil exploration," says Mike Hodgkinson, Land Rover's managing director. "Land Rover couldn't fill the orders, and Japan moved in." 

Mr. Hodgkinson, a boyish-looking 37-year-old, was given the reins at Land Rover three years ago when BL installed its hard- handed chairman, Sir Michael Edwardes. Land Rover had already waked up to the need for expansion-but at the worst possible time. It was planning to spend nearly $ 700 million to double capacity just as Britian's economy was slipping into recession. 

"We said we didn't think the plan was particularly sensible," Mr. Hodgkinson says. "We ruthlessly hacked it back." 

Land Rover is still planning to double capacity, to 110,000 cars a year by 1984, but it will spend less than $400 million to do it. Mr. Hodgkinson has shaved the work force to 11,000 from 14,000. He introduced an incentive system on the shop floor that, he says, "gave us a one-shot 30% improvement in productivity." 

In 1980, Land Rover did exceedingly well. The world automobile market was in a shambles. The British pound was strong, making Land Rovers expensive for overseas customers. In its home market, a Land Rover sold for about $15,000 and a Range Rover for about $30,000. But "despite all logic," as Mr. Hodgkinson puts it, the company sold more cars than ever before: 61,000. It had revenue of about $700 million, translating the pound at the current rate of exchange, and profits that outsiders have estimated at nearly $75 million. 

Logic won out in the first half of this year, however. Mr. Hodgkinson says Land Rover had its "worst trading period ever." But it still made a profit, and he expects a profit for the year-assuming BL doesn't lose forever, that is. The weakening pound will contribute to this year's profit, but so will the aggressive sales program that even includes advertising. 

North America is still a blank on Land Rover's sales map-thanks to the company's anemic marketing history-and is likely to remain so through the current slump. Mr. Hodgkinson isn't overly worried about overseas competition from American makes such as the Ford Bronco and the Jeep Cherokee. He considers them "dramatically less refined" than the Land Rover and Range Rover. 

But the company is a bit wary of Jeep exports now that Regie Nationale des Usines Renault of France owns a chunk of Jeep's parent, American Motors Corp. To help fend off that attack and the continuing barrage from Japan, Land Rover's evolution is picking up pace. The Range Rover now has a four-door model. The Land Rover has a V-8 engine. And, for steak lovers, the metal grille is available again. 

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From: jeremie@lutz.com (Jeremie Kass)
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions (Jeep GC, etc.)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:17:43 -0400

Talking about drawbacks to the Jeep Grand Cherokees, I have a real sob
story.  A relative bought in the past 6 months a GC Laredo.  2 weeks ago,
they got into a crash which destroyed the back window and cause body damage
to the extent of not being able to open the passenger doors.  (picture a GC
hitting a brick wall at a 15mph, going backwards)  This is in a suburb of
Detroit, MI (headquarter of Chrysler, etc.)  It is going to take them ****2
- 3 MONTHS***** before they can get all the parts they need  before the
vehicle can be repaired.  I assume that Chrysler places a lower priority on
aftermarket parts and are allocating most of what's produced to their new,
hotselling cars.  Oh well ... they should have bought a LR ... at least they
would have been able to rebuild it themselves, eh?

Jeremie
(soon to be the owner of a '96 Disco, just as soon as our dealer gets his in)
--
Jeremie Kass            | snail mail: 211 W.Fort St, Suite 1500
Information Systems     |             Detroit, MI 48226-3281 USA
 Consultant             | e-mail:     jeremie@lutz.com
JPK Computer Consulting |             jkass@detroit.freenet.org

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From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:35:44 GMT -0600
Subject:       Re: films

Lloyd Allison writes :

> Revised film list (long thin mail) follows.
> Many thanks to all concerned.

Snip
> %T White Heart, Black Hunter

Lloyd,
It's White Hunter, Black Heart.
It was on TV yesterday, here in Madison.
Yep, lot's of Land Rovers. And a couple of rigs I couldn't decide 
whether or not they were converted Rovers. 
I didn't think Clint Eastwood was mush-mouthed in it. In fact, it 
seemed  to me he spoke more intellgibly than any of his westerns or   
Dirty Harry movies.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 07:28:10 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Another S.P.O.T.

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Another S.P.O.T.
I have another to add to the "SPOT" (Stupid Previous Owner Trick) list, On
my 88, they used sheet metal screws right through all 3 doors to attach
steel plates on which they attached magnetic signs.

Sheesh! Some people's kids! ;-)

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

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From: Alan Richer <Alan_Richer.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 28 Aug 95 11:26:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Another S.P.O.T.

Re: steel plates for magnetic signs:

That's funny....'cause on my Rover (before I painted the doors)
you could make out the outlines of a stick-on Schwinn bicycle
company sign. Seems like my old beast was a bicycle delivery
truck somewhere in its checquered past...8*)

Maybe that explains the derailleurs in the transmission8*) -ajr

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:58:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Insurance

On 27 Aug 1995, compuserve wrote:

> I know this isn't a subject brought up here very often but what is the average
> liability only insurance rate for an under 25 male?

	Varies dramatically by region, rural/urban, and a host of other 
	factors. 	

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 09:31:00 PDT
From: rlarson@lsil.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions

Couple comments on Grand Cherokee's

I owned one for a couple years prior to it being stolen.  Probably would still
have if it handn't been.  I found it to be a very good vehicle.  It is lighter
duty vehicle by design than the LR's.  (My first week long trip off-road in
Nevada caused all 4 "off-road" shocks to leak.)  However my experience with 
my D90 suggests its build quality was at least as good or better.  I wouldn't
buy one for serious off roading but for the occasional trips that most SUV's
see it was very competent.  This assumes the off road package.  The street
tired, lower standard Grand Cherokee's are almost useless off road.  I ended 
up replacing it with two cars.  A D90 for off road and a Ford Probe for my
commute. To be completely honest, I would buy a Grand Cherokee over a Disco if
I could only support one car.  This decision is based on front seat leg room
alone. (I'm 6' 2" with long legs and just don't fit in Discos.)   

As for the Land Cruiser, I've put in a couple hundred miles on the road in one. No off road miles.  Seemed very solid.  A little underpowered.  The thing about
this vehicle is that it is a full size truck.  Almost as big a Chevy Blazer.
(or is that Tahoe now)  In my opinion the size puts it in a different catagory
then Rovers or Jeeps.  Could be very limiting off road if you are into narrow
mountain trails.  

-Rick
94 D90

Richard Larson
LSI Logic Corporation
(408) 433-7149

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From: hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 13:28:53 EST
Subject: Special Tags

Just got my new "vanity" tags for the Discovery.  Being in 
Maryland, home of LRNA, I was a bit surprised someone else 
hadn't already taken what I requested.  Anyway, that's me 
with          "4X4XFAR"          driving around DC area.  I 
have a bet with myself on how long it'll take the wife to 
notice the non-random plates when she get home in (my God, 
only) 3 weeks.  I think a month or so.  Perhaps it'll help 
convert her to *Enthusiast* status.  I wonder IF the dealer 
will notice when it goes in for its 7500-mile check-up.

I used to have Nevada tags on the Series 2 car that said 
"BRIT4X4."  Had to turn them in soon after turning civilian, 
though.

Hank

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:40:02 -0700
From: growl@hsmpk14a-101.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell)
Subject: Re: Rover survival kit

> I just got a Brigade Quartermaster catalog (one of those questionable 
> outfits that sells you everything you need to assault your neighbour, as 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> T. F. Mills
> tomills@du.edu                               University of Denver Library

 Why are they questioanable? Not PC enough for someone with a .edu address?
I've been buying equipment from them for years with no problems. If you don't
like something or they screw up, they make it right.

R, bg

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From: Harincar@WWW.mooregs.com (Tim Harincar)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:48:34 -0700
Subject: Re: SPOTs

A couple of things to add...

The PO of my '66IIa bought a bran-spankin'-new carb for it and I swear he 
took it out of the box and bolted it right on - no checking the adjustments 
or anything. It was running so rich that on my way home after I bought it, it 
would kill at stop lights and such. You'd have thought it was a diesel. (The 
float wasn't even *close* to being in the proper position.)

Secondly, the PO in question buys a complete new exhaust system from atlantic 
british, and hauls it all down to the local Midas shop for install. That shop 
procedes to cut off the mounting flange that mates the intermediate pipe with 
the muffler, welds on a reducer to the end of the intermediate, and welds 
that into muffler. Why? My guess is so that the next time the pipe failed, 
they could soak the PO for a new muffler as well, but thats just a theory... 

Fortunatly, when I went to replace the 18 month old rust and hole tube that 
used to be the Atlantic British pipe, I was able to cut it off flush with the 
flange so that I wouldn't have to buy an $80 muffler as well.

Tim Harincar                           Moore Graphics Services
harincar@mooregs.com         Minneapolis, MN
'66 IIa 
88SW

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From: Harincar@WWW.mooregs.com (Tim Harincar)
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:50:13 -0700
Subject: Odd story of points & ignition

Last spring, I had posted regarding an odd problem I was having with the 
ignition in my '66 IIa after replacing the points with a new pair that had 
come from Atlantic British.

The problem was this: After I installed the points, it ran for about 20 miles 
and would then start to misfire. I'd check and adjust the gap, then it would 
run fine again for a short while (couple days) then begin to misfire.

I thought I had put the points in incorrectly, but everything appeared as 
normal. Frustrated and about at the end of my rope (isn't it the seemingly 
simple problems that push you over the edge?), I put the old, pitted and warn 
points back in (another good reason never to throw anything away), and it has 
run just dandy for the last two months.

Can points be "bad"?

Tim Harincar
harincar@mooregs.com
'66 IIa 88SW

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:19:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Brown <DB@CHO004.CHO.GE.COM>
Subject: Pointy points

Tim,

> The problem was this: After I installed the points, it ran for about 20 miles 
> and would then start to misfire. I'd check and adjust the gap, then it would 
> run fine again for a short while (couple days) then begin to misfire.

> Can points be "bad"?

    Did they *need* adjustment after each 20 miles?

    I used to have this same distributor and its 6-cylinder cousin in my
    TR4 and 6's, and the only time I saw this kind of problem was when I
    got some points that were made a little wrong.  If the plastic cam
    follower is not square to the cam lobe, but rather rides on the top
    or bottom corner of the plastic, it will understandably wear much
    more quickly, closing up as it wears and requiring constant
    adjustment...until it finally wears a *new* full-height angle on the
    plastic follower, at which point it will be OK again.

    If you still have the "new" points, you should be able to look at
    them and see if that was the case (if there's a canted worn spot on
    the follower edge.)

    Duncan

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 12:00:41 -0700
From: john@oaty.com (John Grant)
Subject: Re: Splash-free oil chnages (well nearly)

I think I have a technique that is *nearly* perfect. First you do really need
a bowl with a large opening, it can be done with the little joke things that
the auto parts stores think work, but it's easier (less aiming) with the
big hole. If you have a mesh over the top so much the better.

Buy a 90 degree bend 4" plastic pipe (US$2). Don rubber gloves. Undo drain plug
almost all the way. Hold pipe over plug with bottom orifice aimed at pan,
unscrew remaining distance with fingers. Plug will shoot out and down the pipe,
but then so will the oil, so you don't need to hold the pipe *that* close.
If you have a mesh covering over the pan then you won't have to fish for the
plug and the (two or three times reusable) disposable washer.

The washers are easily available from the dealer for about 75USc (or GB 25p).
Don't forget the sealant on the threads.

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:16:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Parts (fwd)

On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Easton Trevor wrote:

> Since it would be of great benefit to everyone. Why doesn't Dixon publish 
> his parts list, all 47 gazzillion of them, as an FAQ? Or even a print out 
> attached to the OVLR news.

	Happily it isn't 47 gadzillion parts.  To stick in the newsletter,
	double column, two pages a month, it would take 284 months or a 
	little more than 23 and a half years to print it.  I think some of
	it might be outdated by now.  This is not a small file, most
	text editors will barf on the length and size.  Until it is modified
	into a more useful format etc. a RN catalogue is a better bet.
	Besides, type in Brakes and you get a couple dozen numbers pop up.
	Which of these do you want?  

> How about it Dixon. Miss Golightly may even forgive you for not mentioning 
> her visit to Maine.

	The comment was about the fact that there were eight OVLR vehicles
	there and none of them were Canadian...  :-)  Besides, we need to
	talk about that joint OVLR-TARC event at Silver Lake this past 
	June 23-24 in your newsletter... :-)

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From: "Rostykus, John" <john@mailgwy.Data-IO.COM>
Subject: Stupid Previous Owner Tricks
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 13:16:00 PDT

I once bought a 1964 109" pick-up as a parts truck (the chassis was swiss 
cheese).  It ran ok, and I was able to amble home on back roads without 
offending anyone (~20 miles).  The previous owner had driven it into the 
mountains regularly, and thought it would be  ready to roll with a new rear 
spring hanger (completely rusted away).

During the dismantling stage, I removed the seat box, and discovered only 
two bolts holding it to the rear bed.  I looked a little further to see what 
else might be holding the bed on.  With much amusement, at this point I was 
able to lift the entire rear bed off the vehicle!  I'm sure glad I didn't 
hit any speed bumps on the way home...

Rosty

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Date: 28 Aug 95 16:34:42 EDT
From: Mark Talbot <71035.3215@compuserve.com>
Subject: NEW 109 rear shocks for sale

All, 

I have a pair of 109  rear shocks for sale. Brand new, still in box asking $60
the pair. 

Mark

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 15:59:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: David John Place <umplace@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: Parts

Don't toss those broken half shafts out yet.  My machinist friend welds 
the machined ends onto new material in the middle and volia a new half 
shaft.  He told me that to machine the end would cost me more than I 
could buy a new shaft for but to weld in a piece of machine tool steel is 
about $15.  You can guess what route I choose. Dave VE4PN

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From: rob_hooper@om.cv.hp.com
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 13:50:29 -0700
Subject: Not so whimpy diff's - Axles Yes! (long story)

Item Subject: cc:Mail Text
     Greetings from a new subscriber to the LRO group. I like the SPOT's 
     people have posted - seems like I've seen many of them in the 4 LR 
     series I've had through the years.
     
     I was reading a posting about the whimpy rover diff's and I beg to 
     differ about that statement. Axles - well those are a bit whimpy but 
     I'd like to relay a story about my ols '73 III and a problem I 
     encountered. 
     
     First to set to story, I had owned the '73 from day one and this Rover 
     had been put through some pretty tough abuse (like hauling 200 gallon 
     water trailer twice/week for 5 months) out a 15 mile drive from 
     Durango, Colorado making an altitude gain from 6500ft to 8500ft; doing 
     forest fire fighting with the same trailer, 5 adults, 200 feet of 
     hose, fire pump, chain saws and hand tools at 8000-9000ft, going up 
     old logging "roads" sometimes so steep (35deg at those altitudes) 
     where we had plenty of traction (no wheel spin) "plenty" of power but 
     not enough clutch plate tension to keep from clutch from not slipping 
     - yep that means 4 of 5 people get out and push!, lots of cruising 
     above timberline 10,000ft-12,000ft in the scenic San Jauns. With that 
     as a preface, ye ole half shafts were taxed just a tad bit. One day, 
     as many of us have experienced, I had that little bang and we no go 
     forward no more under 2X4 drive. Well, I popped the shafts out, pulled 
     the pumkin (diff housing) and retrieved the remains of my left half 
     shaft. Checked the diff over, every thing appeared secure and 
     undamaged. 
     
     Then about 10,000 miles later, on the road to the Snow Bowl Ski Area 
     on Sunset Peak (Flagstaff, Arizona - 7,500 ft.), the first week in 
     January with plenty of snow on the road, a sonic wave rivalling that 
     of a .357 cal pistol came from under the back floor followed by this 
     tremendous gowl. I stopped and took a look underneath and saw a most 
     distrubing sight, a thin stream of gear lube coming from a hole in the 
     back housing of the axle - a hole the size of a .357 (well ok close) 
     with a bolt shaft sticking out through the housing. My first thought 
     was great, I just toasted a $800 pinion/crownwheel set, followed by 
     now what do I do? To make a long story shorter, I pulled the half 
     shafts out and replaced the driving members (hubs) with a little added 
     grease (always carried a 1 lb tin of grease!), pulled off the prop 
     shaft to isolate the offended diff. and drove for the next 3 days 
     using front wheel drive (yep - it really did ok in the snow) and on my 
     way back down to Phoenix I averaged about 30mpg with a road speed of 
     50-55 mph. 
     
     When it came time to pull the diff, I drained the lube and all the 
     assorted bits of metal and a couple of pieces of bolts and keepers. 
     The damage was nothing less than amazing, two teeth were scuffed on 
     the crownwheel and one pinion tooth - so slight that all I did was 
     polish the ever-so-slight burrs smooth with my Dremel (less than 
     .0005" removed) no other damage was done. All I did was put all new 
     bolts and keepers in and back in service I was. What happened 
     according to my discussions at that time ('78) with Rover UK was that 
     those funky 10mm shoulder bolts are designed to shear to help protect 
     the pinion/crownwheel when the half shafts left loose under load. Find 
     that in the shop manuals!! :-| So the moral is, blow a half shaft, 
     replace all bolts and keepers. BTW, I still have the two offending 
     bolts and the one has grind marks from the outer surface of the 
     crownwheel - the one punched through the housing.
     
     As an afterword, I know of no other 4X4 that could have accepted this 
     abuse, be fixed under not so ideal conditions and still get me back 
     home in reasonable fashion. 
     
     BTW, for any Arizona LRO's, have you seen a marine blue '73 III 88 
     Sta. Wagon with a Artic White (Rover's really white color) tropical 
     roof with alpine lights, and deluxe bonnet. It would likely be 
     sporting a Warn 8000 winch, brush guard, and a low profile gas can 
     carrier on rear door, and a modified factory roof rack. Last owner 
     lived in Bisbee, AZ. Just curious to know if it's still running. It 
     was my favorite own I had.
     
     Cheers, Rob Hooper
     

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From: RICKCRIDER@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:07:27 -0400
Subject: More RR Tire Info?

OK......I'll try this again.   My previous post got just a couple of
responses and I thank those who responded.
My question,  simply put, is:
"How much larger a tire may I install on my 1988 Range Rover with completely
stock suspension without danger of scrubbing?"
I am currently running the stock size Michelin 205-16 XMS which I am unhappy
with.   If I'm going to go through the trouble and expense of new tires I
want to use a somewhat wider,  fatter tire,  and perhaps a bit taller.
  Prefer a mutltipurpose type tread that won't be terribly noisy on the
pavement.   Most importantly, for shopping purposes,  I need sizes.....not
brands or styles.    IE:  225/75/16,  235/85/16,  etc.,  etc.,  etc.
Thanks again.
Rick Crider   KD4FXA
<rickcrider@aol.com>
' 66 SIIa 109"   (Hugo)   .......and for sale........
' 73 SIII   88"    (Jesse)
' 88  Range Rover.....no name.....my daily mule.....and needs new shoes.

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:53:33 +0930
From: Tiffany Downing <tiffanyd@tafe.sa.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Winch, Bushes

LLoyd wrote:

>The chassis spring-bushes (S1-S3) can easily be removed by hack-sawing through
>them (pass blade through bush-hole). Once cut length wise they push out easily.
>If the bolt is seized in the bush I guess one could destroy the rubber
>by various means! <snip>

We tried this method and removed three of the spring bushes however the last
one wouldn't budge no matter what we tried.  We ended up burning it out.  I
do not recommend this unless it is a FINAL LAST RESULT, because not only
does it leave a really nice pile of mushy melted rubber that sticks to
everything, but it STINKS!!!

>Getting the new [standard] bushes in is "another matter".
>I used various high-tensile bolts, washers and spacers to pull them in.

We actually did something that we'd heard along the Landy grapevine - Freeze
them.  This way they shrink slightly and can be inserted with not quite so
much trouble.  This does not affect them in the slightest (well not so far
that we know of :-)

All I can say it that I'm glad we don't need to do it again in a hurry!!!

Best of Luck!!

Tiffany Downing

********************************************
Co-ordinator, International Student Programs
TAFE South Australia, AUSTRALIA
Phone:   (61 8) 226 3202
Fax:     (61 8) 226 3655
E-Mail:  tiffanyd@tafe.sa.edu.au
********************************************

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Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 10:05:41 +0930
From: Tiffany Downing <tiffanyd@tafe.sa.edu.au>
Subject: Movies

I just happened to switch on the TV the other night and guess what jumped
out of the screen at me but a couple of SIII's and a Unimog.

The movie was called "The Odd Angry Shot" and it starred Graham Kennedy and
Bryan Brown and some other oldies that probably were stars in someone else's
time that I didn't recognise.

It was an Australian movie (I'd guess by the strong Australia Accents and
the cast) and was set during a war. I didn't watch long enough to get
anymore info, but it's another one for the movie list anyway.

Cheers

Tiffany Downing

********************************************
Co-ordinator, International Student Programs
TAFE South Australia, AUSTRALIA
Phone:   (61 8) 226 3202
Fax:     (61 8) 226 3655
E-Mail:  tiffanyd@tafe.sa.edu.au
********************************************

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:56:09 -0700
From: johnliu@earthlink.net (John Y. Liu)
Subject: Tires for 109?

My trusty Sr. IIA 109 needs new tires.  She is neither lifted nor
fender-bulged.  I will be driving her to Costa Rica and back next year with
two people and a load of camping and kayaking gear, so I'd like good,
durable, long-lasting tires for mixed pavement/dirt road/some beach
sand/maybe some mud use, but its not going to be the Camel Trophy or the
Rubicon or anything similar.  I have the 16" rims.  Currently I have two
spares on 16" rims, brand new Armstrong "Norseman" radials in 205 (I
think)/16 size; I don't care if my new tires are the same, but I'd like them
to be compatible in case they all get mixed up.  I'm not anxious to get
bigger or wider tires just for the looks, but would consider them if there
would be an advantage.  And -- sigh -- money is a consideration, so I can't
change the rims or buy $250 Dick Cepeks.

Can anyone suggest a suitable tire brand and size that would be available in
the U.S.? And do you suggest mounting them with tubes?

(I followed the recent Michelin XCL discussion but was unclear if people
were saying the Michelin was the best for my purposes or simply that "here's
how to find them if you want them".)      
John Y. Liu
johnliu@earthlink.net

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:22:24 +0100
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Re: Tires for 109?

 John Y. Liu <johnliu@earthlink.net> writes:

>My trusty Sr. IIA 109 needs new tires.  Currently I have two spares on
 16" rims, brand new Armstrong "Norseman" radials in 205 (I think)/16 size;
 Can anyone suggest a suitable tire brand and size that would be available in
 the U.S.? And do you suggest mounting them with tubes?

 John,

 You don't say where you are so I may be pissing in the wind with this reply,
 if so, maybe someone else can make use of it.

 Norseman's are good all-around tires, and I think Series III Rovers were
 equipped with them at one point.  I like the tread pattern, pliability,
 durability, and general appearance of the tire --they look like they'll
 take you anywhere and bring you back home!  For awhile I was told they
 were no longer made in the US, but I rediscovered them in metric sizing
 as they were installed at a local service station in Moraga, CA (east of
 Oakland, CA).  To my suprise they were affordable too at about $83 each
 plus valve stems, installation, tax, etc., or about $100 a pop.

 As far as using tubes, I subscribed to belief that tubes should be run even
 with tubeless off-highway tires.  After listening to some discussion, I
 find it difficult to imagine a puncture or tear that was large enough to
 cause a hole or tear in the tire, but small enough to leave your tubes
 intact.  And, I can see where tubes might work out of a tire in an air-down,
 or more likely, be dislogged in the tire and rotate away from the valve stem
 causing the valve stem to tear.  I don't know of any manufacturer who designs
 a tubless tire to be used WITH tubes.  Anything a tube tire can do, a
 tubeless tire can too, except, you can use the tubes to go rafting :)  If
 you want to be safe, take some tubes with you --they don't take up much room
 or weigh too much, yu can always use them for bartering with the natives =]:)*

 Michael Carradine         ?           '65 IIA 88" 'Rumpole of the Bay' at
 cs@crl.com                _\    __      http://www.crl.com/~cs/rover.html
                          [__[__[__]
 _________________________(o)___(o)_______________________________________  

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From: DieselBobI@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:35:54 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

to gregwhitw@trteal.com concerning the battery, get 2 12 volt batteries
somewhere in the 800-900 amp. range, wire them in parrallel,hot to hot,neg to
neg . be sure to put a kill switch between them and the solenoid. it might
just save you if you leave any electrical components on, or if there are any
bad grounds, as for the alternator, just get a lucas and have it rebuilt.you
can find a used one for 20. and get it upgraded even for about 50. to 60.

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From: ecoethic@rcinet.com
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 22:58:19 -0400
Subject: Re: High Altitude Vapor Lock

I just returned recently from a three week trip to Colorado around South Fork, 
Creede, Lake City, Silverton, Durango, etc. I put on about 1000 miles in the 
mountains with the Rover (72 Series III - 88). We, (myself and my three sons) 
crossed the continental divide many times and put on up to 140 miles in a day 
off road. The only problems we encountered with the LR involved the engine 
losing power and dying out above 12,000 feet. The first time it happened I 
discovered that if I turned around and backed up the slope I did better. I 
attributed the problem to vapor lock and a tired fuel pump. So if anyone out 
there heard reports of an 88' backing up between Carson and Old Carson 
between 12,000 and 13,000 feet, it was me. Made it to the top backwards! 

The next day I installed a Purolator electric fuel pump in addition to the 
mechanical with a separate control switch. This seemed to solve the problem 
except when I would shut it off for a few minutes to take pictures above 13,000 
feet. Vapor lock would reoccur momentarily until the fuel pump had time to 
work. When I have time I would like redo the fuel supply system in the best 
possible state. I have noticed that some recommend putting the fuel line behind 
the engine, and that some do not recommend having both the mechanical and the 
electric on together. In my setup they do not seem to conflict with each other 
(the electric is after the mechanical and before the filter and pressure regulator). 
The carb is a Weber 2 bl with Pierce manifold.

Other than this small problem, I had no troubles whatsoever with the Rover. I 
didn't come close to getting stuck, but I did have a scare with losing traction 
going up a slope in the rain at about 13,500 feet. I was following the tracks of a 
Jeep that had gone before me that I had observed from the other side of the 
valley. It was raining, but the traction was decent as it was a rocky soil. We were 
in and out of clouds, so we could not see very far ahead, and it was a fairly steep 
slope (30-35 degrees). Within a few hundred feet of the top of the peak I saw 
where the Jeep had spun out when it lost traction. Apparently it had then 
backed down in its tracks and disappeared on a side trail in the clouds, 
accounting for why I did not see it or a second set of tracks. I was torn about 
whether to continue up or not as I have seen the aftermath of what happens 
when someone gets sideways on a steep slope. I kept a steady slow speed (1st 
in low) and got about 100 feet past where the Jeep spun out when I began to feel 
it slow down. In my youthful days I would have gunned it for all it was worth, 
but instead I eased off the throttle and came to a gentle stop. I then very gently 
crept down using the brakes with the tires just barely moving. One of advantages 
of keeping your brakes evenly adjusted is being able to ease down like this. I 
think going down in reverse gear would have been too fast. I also was thankful 
for the Warn hubs on the rear wheels, for they let me see the rate of the wheel 
turn easily. I backed down ever so slowly until I reached the first mogul to turn 
around. The kids didn't realize fully how precarious our situation was until I told 
them that if started rolling sideways, we would have been spinning like a top 
until about 9,000 feet or so. Not only does a Land Rover get you stuck in places 
where you should not be in the first place, it rescues your butt when it is taken 
beyond the limits of traction! I might also add that the parking brake also held 
by itself on this slope as backup!

One last comment. During the whole three weeks I did not see one Series Rover 
anywhere (I guess everybody was up in Breckinridge). I did see four Range 
Rovers and three Discovery's, but all on paved roads, and only one driver 
acknowledged my presence with a wave, north of Silverton.

Walt Pokines

Tipp City, Ohio

60' Ser II, 66' Ser IIA, 2-72' Ser III's,
55' REO (Land Rover Support Vehicle)

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From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@s101dcascr.wr.usgs.gov>
Subject: Re: Tires for 109?
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:39:41 -0700 (PDT)

0
>>>>> John Y. Liu writes:

> My trusty Sr. IIA 109 needs new tires.  She is neither lifted nor
> fender-bulged.  I will be driving her to Costa Rica and back next year with
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
> bigger or wider tires just for the looks, but would consider them if there
> would be an advantage.  And -- sigh -- money is a consideration, so I can't
> change the rims or buy $250 Dick Cepeks.

John, having driven that particular strech of road 3 times over the years,
I would suggest that you concentrate on deciding what type of tire you
want (general purpose mud and snow tires sound about right) the size, load
capability, and durability, then go shopping for the best value.  You
might end up with Coopers, Michelins or whatever and it won't make a whole
lot of difference.  As you point out, this isn't going to be too rigorous. 

Conditions may have changed in the recent past, but when I had to go tire 
shopping in Belize due to premature wear, I resolved to not leave 
the United States again without virtually new tires.  I ended up buying 
tires that had been imported used from England.  The original owners had 
been the Postal Service.  

> Can anyone suggest a suitable tire brand and size that would be available in
> the U.S.? And do you suggest mounting them with tubes?

Brands:  if you get Firestones, be sure to get a mileage guarantee.

Tubes:  assuming your rims will hold air and the tires are designed for
it, my suggestion would be to go tubeless, but take several tubes with you. 
Make sure they are for radials if you get radials.  

> (I followed the recent Michelin XCL discussion but was unclear if people
> were saying the Michelin was the best for my purposes or simply that "here's
> how to find them if you want them".)      

This thread ran heavily to where rather than why.  I wouldn't even think 
about the XCL's for your purposes.

As an aside, I have Michelin highway tires (235 85R 16s) on my 109.  Very 
nice tires, but sadly lacking in the aggressive tread department.  They were 
purchased at great cost by the PO and I am very reluctant to spend good 
money replacing them.  My solution was to purchase 2 sets of chains and 
use them when the going gets sticky or slippery.  So far I've not had to 
put on the second set. 

Walter Swain      1967 IIA 109 Safari SW, petrol
Davis, CA         1988 Range Rover

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From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 01:53:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: films

>From Lloyd....
 
> Revised film list (long thin mail) follows.

Here's another one...
"The Lion of Africa"  Mild adventure about a transport driver who has a
Bedford truck and (of course) a damsel in distress. They get chased at one
point by "bad guys" in Land Rovers. 

Cheers
Mike
 

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:50:03 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rover survival kit

> Survival kits are pretty handy item to have around, so why not make it a 
> Rover survival kit.  

In my experience, packaged survival kits are more targeted to the average git 
who's going to get themselves broken down by the side of the road and have to 
wait a couple of hours for the tow truck.  

I would much rather put together my own kit, with what I'm likely to need.  The 
packaged kits might make a good *starting* point, except that you can probably 
put together the same items for a lot less.  

And I expect that any first aid kit sold to regular folks will be grossly 
inadequate for the sort of off-in-the-boonies travel that LRO's are likely to 
do.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

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Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 23:50:09 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Rog's misinformation......

I'm really sorry to bombard the list with this, but when someone claims, in a 
public forum, that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to my 
profession, I have to respond in public as well.

> Uncle Roger, thou knowst not what you speak. Why not stick to Rovers and

After 15 years in the computer industry, and 12 years active in the on-line 
world, I think I do know of what I speak.  I was in Ottawa recently (and got 
to attend the OVLR birthday party) because I was invited to speak at the 
Cognos North American User Conference.  My paper?  Cognos Users and the 
Information Highway.  I was also on the panel for an on-line conference 
during the conference.  

I have run BBS's, and worked with the large conferencing services.  I also 
use a direct internet provider (take a look at my address.)  I'm president of 
a computer user group, active in others.  I'm on the board of directors for 
the Computer History Association of California, and have a modest collection 
myself.  I have had several articles published in magazines and newsletters.

If you want to take a look at my current resume, take a look at 
http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn.

When it comes to computers and their use (including teleconferencing (as it 
was called in my day)), I most certainly know what I'm talking about.  

As for Land Rovers, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not technically 
knowledgeable.  I'm just obsessed.

> Most on this list are smart
> enough to realize that WE CAN MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS.

I will certainly not dispute that.  I have the highest regard for the folks 
on this list.  However, even the smartest among us can't make decisions 
without adequate information.  

I was providing some information that folks on the list may not have been 
aware of.  (This was a recent price reduction.)  Perhaps you, for whatever 
reason, chose AOL after evaluating all the other services, but others may not 
know what else is available.  Would you have someone choose AOL simply 
because that's what came with their computer?  What kind of DECISION is that?

> AOL and I have no problems with MIME attachments, 

Perhaps you don't.  But quite a few people indicated that suddenly a couple 
of LR mail lists were showing up with just the first message and a MIME 
attachment.  Okay, so you know how to deal with a MIME attachment using AOL's 
software, but others didn't.  And AOL didn't see fit to tell anyone of the 
change, or to let people know how to deal with the results.  AOL caters to 
novice computer users; they should provide the support that novices need.

Someone asked what happened, and I gave my considered opinion, based on the 
symptoms reported.  

> and to add something to the
> Address Book you click on the icon that reads "Address Book" so I can see
> where you may have had problems and become confused.

And what do you do after clicking on "Address Book"?  Type in the address, 
eh?  I'm sorry, but that's not acceptable interface design in this day and 
age.  

> I have no gripes with Compuserve yet I CHOOSE to use AOL. I respect your
> choice to use CS or whatever, just cool it with the superiority complex and
> snot attitude.

Over the years, I have used Fido (The international network popular long 
before the internet went mainstream?), BIX, Prodigy, CIS, AOL (limited), the 
Internet, and countless business and personal BBS's and WAN's.  

I use what best gets the job done. 

And when others have problems, I try to help.  When I have information that 
may be of interest to others, I offer it.  There are those who, armed with 
the knowledge of CIS's lower cost, may CHOOSE to use CIS.  I don't get 
anything out of it, except that a Land Rover Owner may be better connected, 
and may be able to help me out with one of my many LR problems.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

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