Land Rover Owner Message Digest Contents

[ First Message Last | Table of Contents | <- Digest -> Archive Index | <- Browser -> ]

The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Send Submissions Land-Rover-Owner@Land-Rover.Team.Net

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 08:38:14 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@ushmm.org>
Subject: graphics

          Sorry, I'll have make a new one, obviously my
          charachters got scrambled. Too bad, i worked on it
          for hours....

------------------------------

From: Anthony Verriello <verriello_anthony@jpmorgan.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 09:27:01 -0400
Subject: Tires, dealers and yuppies

Forgive the soapbox but:

ALL RIGHT FOLKS lets stop the yuppie bashing.  Some yuppies are enthusiasts that like
interiors that can be hosed out and tires that scream and doors that rattle and 
wind noise and bad gas mileage and all the other parts of owning a true LR.  Anyone
who buys a Defender for status and is willing to "compromise" is missing the point.
And no, I never watch 90210....I had mine before they had theirs anyway.

Robert,

>>>I just ran across a manhattan dealer who sells parts over the net.  The URL
>>>is http://www.starweb.net/zumbach.html.  One of the marques shown on the

Zumbach is the only rover dealer in manhattan. When I was pricing my 94 D90 they 
seemed to have competative prices.  They were even dealing on Discos.
However I did not buy my 90 there...mostly because of location...I work in manhattan
but found an excellent dealer near my house on Long Island.  What amazes me about 
Zumbach is that they have many makes of vehicle under one roof.  I had heard that
LR dealers had to be exclusively LR.  Can anyone verify this.  Dont have any first
hand experience with them...however it would appear (I waited 45 min for a salesperson)
they do volume.  

TeriAnn,

>>> While in Boston last week I came across a newish D90 that had 265/75R16 BF 

Mud terrains were standard on 94 D90's. LR started shipping the 95's with
all terrains.  One of the reasons was decreased road noise...personally I like
the road noise and my Muds.  

verriello_anthony@jpmorgan.com
        
 +-+--+-@
 |_|_/|__\__ 
 | _  |' |_ |} (Dagwood...named for his voracious appetite,
 =(_)=+==(_)'             petrol not sandwiches)

'94 black NAS D90 
(happiness is pulling a jeep out of a hole)

------------------------------

From: Andrew Grafton <A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Michelin XCLs
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 15:06:13 BST

Further to the Michelin XCL thread...

I also heard that XCL's are to be discontinued and replaced with 
the 'new' Michelin offroad tyre.  No details and can't confirm it
though.

Re : where to get them - there seems to be no shortage of supply 
from ex-military sources.  The tyres will have been used (by the 
Army, so it's by no means ideal...) but are cheap.  There would
appear to be a lot of 'snow' XCLs around, which have metal studs
in the treadblocks.  Rumour has it that you can rip these out 
and end up with a serviceable tyre at low cost.

I bought twelve 7.50R16 XCLs three weeks ago, ex-army, 7 virtually 
unused and 5 about half worn.

No problems so far with any of them (all have been used).

Don't know if this is any help.

All the best,

Andy
A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk
1
2
3

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 07:18:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John C. White III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Tires, dealers and yuppies

Land Rover dealers don't seem to be required to carry only Land Rovers, 
at least not in the U.S.  All the ones I've seen though seem to cater to 
the high-end market.  I bought mine at a LR/Jaguar/Rolls Royce dealership.

Cheers!
John
'95 Disco five-speed
San Francisco, California

On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, Anthony Verriello wrote:

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
> Forgive the soapbox but:
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 42 lines)]
>  =(_)=+==(_)'             petrol not sandwiches)
> '94 black NAS D90 
> (happiness is pulling a jeep out of a hole)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 07:30:55 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: D90 tyres

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: D90 tyres
Teri Ann,

You saw a '95 model. At my local dealer (Phoenix) they have some used
'94's and new '95's and that's the first thing that jumps out at you.
The MT tyres are by far more "beefy" looking, and no doubt better for
most trails. I believe the LRNA people are yielding to the desires of
the "yuppies", as they have in numerous things. From a business
standpoint, I guess you do have to give them what they want. But for us
"purists".... Away with all the frills!!! Give me the ole metal dash,
crumple zones on "the other guy's car", best trail tyres, etc...

Other differences that I've noticed ('94 vs. '95): '94 has square tail
lights, front turn indicators on the bumper. '95 has larger front "wing"
signal lamps, and round tail lights. (And AT tyres.) From what I've
seen... I'll take the round lights and change the tyres on the '95.
Er... that is... if I had the option of choosing. But as it is, I can
only afford to drive by after closing, and dream.

Cheers!

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Aug 95 20:45:38 PDT
From: Tony@hawtec.demon.co.uk
Subject: RE: Windscreen Glass, Heated & Prices 

Glad to read that you got your heated screens.  The screens are 
interchangeable according to the parts book.  The full kit (601766) 
(switches, etc.) is no longer available.

The principal parts in addition to the screens are:
2 off switches 55778
1 off switch panel 348689
2 switch labels 560408/9
plate 348542 (haven't a clue what this is for!
1 off relay(?) 142169
1 off wiring loom 555780

I haven't fitted mine yet, but will post an account.

BTW still having difficulties picking up mail!
-------------------------------------
Tony Chapman             E-mail: Tony@hawtec.demon.co.uk
HAWTEC                   Tel:    01905 723200
Haswell House            Fax:    01905 613338 
St. Nicholas Street      Mobile: 0973 316835
Worcester
WR1 1UW

Date: 08/13/95
Time: 20:45:39

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 09:54:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Richard Dodd" <dodd@nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: selling 109" Station Wagon

I am sadly forced to sell my 1962 series 2a 109" 5 door station wagon. In
excellent condition with about 15K miles on a U.K. reconditioned 2.25l
engine, overdrive, carpets, re-upholstered, extra fuel tank under passenger
seat, white roof, poppy red body. Price $12K. Land-rover is in the San Francisco Bay
area. Telephone enquiries (510) 2340731 at home, or (510) 2154217 at work.
Richard Dodd  dodd@insect.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 10:55:09 -0700
From: matts@caciasl.com (Matt Snyder)
Subject: Early (US spec) Range Rover details

My '88 RR also had the worked-loose speedo illuminator problem, as well as 
some of the other problems you mentioned.  One comment about the leaking 
power steering pump:  My mechanic advised me to just keep topping off the 
power steering fluid and not worry about the leak.  I did this for a few 
months, and then one day during a mountain snow storm, while my wife was 
driving it, the pully on the front of the pump sheared right off!  I'm not 
knowledgeable enough to know whether the leak and the subsequent 
self-destruction were related, but considering the inconvenience of trying 
to get a trailer tow in a snow storm, I sure wish I'd replaced it when the 
leak was noticed.

-Matt

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 11:05:48 PDT
From: rlarson@lsil.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: Yuppie Bashing

Please don't take it personally.  I was born and raised a yuppie and too,
have lived through the insults and cruel stares of strangers.  
 
Lately though, I wake up and start thinking of HD coil springs, winches, 
snorkels, skid plates and Camel Trophy type events and I feel the need to rebel 
against my upbringing.  Recently converted to redneck, I make myself feel 
better about my new calling by trashing my past.  Yesterday, I was feeling
particularly perturbed about the effort I'm going to have to call forth to 
get some decent skid plates (looks like fabrication or UK)  when TeriAnn's
D90 tire mail crossed my path. 

Yuppies just got caught in my frustration with LRNA.  Despite LRNA efforts
to build and capitalize on the Camel Trophy and Best 4x4xFar off road image
they don't seriously support such individual usage.  Take a simple test.  
Walk in to you LR dealer and tell them you are looking for air conditioning,
carpeting, and a CD changer for your D90.  You'd be able to have everything
installed by the end of a week.  Go in and ask for a deep water fording kit,
differential protection plates, and heavy duty springs to support a winch and
you get shown the door.  On the way out you get to pass by all those Camel
Trophy posters (even video in some dealers) showing off deep water fording, 
protection plates, heavy duty winches, etc.... 

-Rick

Richard Larson
LSI Logic Corporation
(408) 433-7149

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Choke cable
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 15:33:00 DST

Dave Place was looking for a choke cable with the switch for a light, I 
posted you a note, Dave, but saw no reply.
If you want it, I've found it. Let me know.

Trevor Easton, Grimsby, Ontario  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 16:12:12 -0400
From: sac4@cornell.edu (Stephen A. Church)
Subject: Questions on Purchasing a Defender

Hi all!  I'm new to the list and I must admit, I am not a Land Rover owner.
(I have no objections to Land Rovers, besides their price, but if I keep
saving, maybe one day...:-)  I do own a British car, though, if it helps.
It's a 1975 Triumph Spitfire and I've been on the british-cars list for a
while.  Anyway, I have a friend (really, if it was me I'd say so ;-) who is
seriously considering ordering a new Defender 90.

What should he know before he signs anything?  Any problems finding
aftermarket parts?  (I saw Rick Larson's message which leads me to believe
the dealers aren't real supportive of Land Rover off-road enthusiasts.)
One benefit of owning a 'mericun off-roader (a Jeep Wrangler) -- not that
the dealers are real supportive, but there's lots of aftermarket stuff.
Back to the issue at hand, what options should he consider?  He'll probably
be doing some off-roading, but nothing too intense (keep in mind we live in
upstate New York).  How about servicing the Defender?  He probably won't do
much of that himself, and the nearest dealer is approx. 2 hours away.  Can
local mechanics or national chains handle the work?  Would you trust them
with it?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.  Feel free to e-mail me directly in case
I'm duplicating any recent postings that I may have missed.  Thanks in
advance!

Steve Church
1975 Triumph Spitfire -> * BRITISH *
1987 Jeep Wrangler    -> *   4x4   *

(Well, it was worth a shot! :-)

------------------------------

From: Leland J Roys <roys@hpkel13.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Mr. Yuppie
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 13:09:39 PDT

Re: Yuppie Bashing

I guess I started the whole yuppie bashing by asking why anyone would
want a Def-90 with the non mud tires. Well all my friends say I am the 
biggest (not in size) yuppie they know, because who else but a yuppie would
spend $30,000 on a truck that(as my girlfriend says) has no door panels,
no carpet, no leather seats, looks like it has not been completed by the
factory, and then take it out and smear mud all over it....

I was also the first "yuppie" to buy (my now sold for Def-90) Toyota-4runner
with all leather interior, all options yuppie-mobile and take it directly to
Baja (1 week after purchase) only to get it stuck in the sand by the ocean
and fill with mud (whole front end sank past the headlights), towed out and
brought back to U.S. with major damage (and I still did not have the license
plates yet).

So I figured I would not feel so bad about messing up a Def-90 since all
that poo-poo leather stuff is missing.

Leland J. Roys
Cupertino, California
'94 Defender 90 (Red)
roys@hpkel13.cup.hp.com

------------------------------

From: Robert Watson (CNA) <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 14:44:52 TZ
Subject: Re: Yuppie Bashing

I'm still trying to "de-yuppify" my Disco, as well. Which brings me to 
the question, where can you get skid plates and those "Camel Trophy" 
roof racks? (I think I can wait a while longer on the snorkel.) The 
12-14"  "lift" to clear the sun roof is not very common.

-- Bob Watson (closet yuppie)
----------
| From: Rick Larson  <rlarson@lsil.com>
| To:  <Land-Rover-Owner@uk.stratus.com>
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
| To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
| ...installed by the end of a week.  Go in and ask for a deep water 
fording kit,
| differential protection plates, and heavy duty springs to support a winch and
| you get shown the door.  On the way out you get to pass by all those Camel
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
| protection plates, heavy duty winches, etc....
| -Rick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:50:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: David John Place <umplace@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Mind Blowing Land Rover

If you want to really blow your minds, look on page 14 of the new Popular 
Science.  It shows a SciFi  101 Forward Control of wheich 31 were built.  
It is powered by 180 HP 3.5 V8.  It is very futuristic but personally I 
like my IIA 88 a lot more.  Dave VE4PN

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 95 16:08:38 PDT
From: rlarson@lsil.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: Questions on Purchasing a Defender

>(I saw Rick Larson's message which leads me to believe
>the dealers aren't real supportive of Land Rover off-road enthusiasts.)

This is more of Land Rovers North America corporate complaint.  I've 
found some very knowledgable and 4x4 enthusiastic people at the 
dealerships I've delt with.   Just can't comprehend why things like the
D90/D110 military tow rings aren't listed as options in North America.  Why
it takes months of looking to find that Genuine LR heavy duty front springs are 
available to hold my winch up, etc.

What other goodies am I missing out on?  

As for advise to your friend.  Just buy one.  Best ( and most )
money I've ever spent.  He'll never be able to justify a D90
purchase by reasoning.  Cut the best deal you can on the D90 the best
fits what he thinks a D90 should be option wise.   

-Rick

Richard Larson
LSI Logic Corporation
(408) 433-7149

------------------------------

From: BobandSueB@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:20:30 -0400
Subject: LROA/NA General Meeting

Steve Hill, President of LROA has asked me to make this announcement:

There will be a meeting of the Land Rover Owners Assoc., North America on
Sunday, September 17, 1995.  The location and time will be announced at a
later date, but should be in the Davis/Sacramento, CA  area.  

The subject of the meeting is Publication of the Aluminum Workhorse  All
members are invited to attend.

Cheers,

Sue Bernard

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John C. White III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on Purchasing a Defender

Steve,

The reason the dealers are not very supportive of using a new vehicle off 
road is because the banks would bark at them for it.  The banks want to 
protect their equity.  Taking to the back country is too likely to cause 
damage.

As for servicing a Rover that's still on warranty, I'd be surprised if 
Land Rover North America authorized any garages that weren't also 
dealers.  LRs are just too rare to trust that "Fred's Garage" is going to 
know its way around one.  I could be wrong, but...

Cheers!
John
'95 Disco five-speed
San Francisco, California

On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, Stephen A. Church wrote:

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
> Hi all!  I'm new to the list and I must admit, I am not a Land Rover owner.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 33 lines)]
> 1987 Jeep Wrangler    -> *   4x4   *
> (Well, it was worth a shot! :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:14:03 -0700
From: jjbpears@ix.netcom.com (Jeremy Bartlett)
Subject: Early 60s colour schemes

I seem to recall someone posted on this before, so my apologies if I'm 
covering old ground.  I was wondering what the appropriate colour 
distribution is for a '65 109 SW.  The original colour was limestone.  
My question is what colour would the roof (tropical) have been, 
limestone or "white"?  I assume that all side panels up to the roof 
would have been limestone as well as the rims.

TIA

Cheers,

Jeremy Bartlett

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:25:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John C. White III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Yuppie Bashing

I'd like to know about skid plates too, Bob.  I found a listing in the 
"Vehicle Gear" marketing booklet for Discovery put out by LRNA for "Roof 
Rack, Expedition, Part No. STC8830."  Unfortunately it was one of the 
items not pictured in the booklet so I can't say whether or not it's like 
the Camel Trophy one.  If it is, and it's not too expensive... "Hello.  
Parts department..."

Cheers!
John
'95 Disco five-speed (Only yups drive automatics :-) )
San Francisco, California

On Wed, 16 Aug 1995, Robert Watson wrote:

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
> I'm still trying to "de-yuppify" my Disco, as well. Which brings me to 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 24 lines)]
> | protection plates, heavy duty winches, etc....
> | -Rick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:27:04 -0500
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Various...

Following up on several threads...
-Wind screen glass.  When a duffer of a neighbor richocheted a nine-iron 
shot off a tree and through my passenger windscreen, the local glass shop 
replaced it with DoT-approved, tinted safety glass for $37 a piece.

-Ben Newman writes about bulkhead padding.  I replaced mine six years ago 
with some cloth-faced, adhesive-backed neoprene from (dare I say it??) J.C. 
Whitless.  Used the jute original as a template, and it looks just fine 
after years of hard use.  Newspaper or cardboard can be used to make a template.

-Rad hoses.  Series LR hoses can be obtained just about anywhere...as can 
oil seals and bearings.  Land Rover owners are some of the most parsimonious 
folks on earth...some of you out there squeeze a nickle so hard the buffalo 
gets a headache...so here's a cheap fix for the intermediate hose that's 
been listed in several recent posts.  Mine failed a few years ago, and it 
was the only one for which I didn't have a spare.  Cut the ends off a beer 
can (can't remember the brand), spread it with Permatex, wrapped it around 
the hose and used the existing hose clamps to secure it.  Armored hoses - 
what a concept.  Worked like a champ for two years.

-Waterproofing distributors.  Gunk makes an ignition sealer spray, which is 
basically lacquer.  Cheap hairspray works almost as well.  In my opinion, 
you don't want to seal the distributor up all *too* well, or else inevitable 
condensation will start to corrode the innards.

"And now for something completely different...."  We were planning a work 
trip to Penlan Farm this weekend to cut a few new trails for the off-road 
course. for the Mid-Atlantic Rally.  However, Hurricane Felix (what a name!) 
is mucking about just off shore.  As I live less than 100 yards from the 
harbor and have a 32' Dutch-built mahogany sloop up on blocks (nearing the 
end of a *very* long restoration) in the boatyard, I don't feel real good 
about cuttin' outta town.  ROAV members (and there are 22 of you on this 
list), watch this space for an announcement...that is, providing the phone 
lines don't get blown down.  If you don't hear from me...it's off.  Cheers
      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |       Rover Owners' Association of Virginia         |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: 16 Aug 95 23:35:44 EDT
From: Leslie Stutsman <100042.254@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hiya   / oil filter adapters and other bits

Hi everyone.  Trust you are all having an awesome summer.  I love all
this sun (first summer in the US after 4 years of rain in Liverpool!)  
Might be taking a trip there this month, but the weather has been
pretty good there this summer too.

For those of you who expressed an interest before, I have recieved the
oil filter adapters.  I also have an assortment of other goodies - 
roofracks, tailgates, hood stick sets, SIII bullbar, PTO winch, 
speedo, etc. Just email me.

Who is going to the British Invasion this year?

Cheers,

Leslie		

'56 Series I Trialer		
'59 Series II 
'6? LWB Station Wagon V8 rebuild
'6? LWB 3 door rebuild
... etc
'65 (X 2) Series IIa SWB - 4 SALE in MASS	

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:36:53 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: models

> Toys R Us also has a Micro Machines set #37 called Trail Trackers that has a
> brown over green SIII 109.  They had another 109 a few years ago in blue. 

I have the brown & Green 109 (did you get yours, Spencer?), but not the Blue 
one!  I don't suppose you have an extra...?

> With all the model talk I haven't seen any references to Triple C Motor 
> Accessories.  They have the Dinky Dy9-B for $18 - brand new in the box.  The 
> also have a large (10" or so) *toy* LR 109 with opening doors, a winch with 
> string, very nice for about $18. 

I think BP also has this one for $12-13.  A very nice model/toy.  In fact, 
it's a nice one to have around for visiting kids to play with.  (Or, for that 
matter, as a christmas gift.  Hmmm...  I know what toys for tots is getting 
this year!)

>  I assume everyone is aware of EWA & Miniature Cars USA,

I've only gotten e-mail listings from them.  Do they have an actual catalog?  
I've never seen a LR in the listings I've gotten from them.

> early stages of forming an Arizona Land Rover Owners Association with
> puddles (thank you Roger) in Tucson, Phoenix, and Flagstaff.  
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                 /
          You're welcome.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:36:32 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: bits & pieces

One thing I noticed at Paradise Lost as we worked to replace the tie rod on my 
109" is Ben's parts boxes filled with various bits and pieces.  Things like 
cotter pins, nuts, bolts, washers, etc.

So my question is, what do you all think are bits and pieces important and/or 
nice to carry?  If everyone replies to me (at sinasohn@crl.com) I'll compile a 
list and post it.  

So far, I've got:

 o  cotter pins, various sizes (which sizes?)
 o  nuts (regular? nylock?)  (sizes?)
 o  bolts (sizes?  lengths?  fine or coarse thread?)
 o  washers (sizes?)
 o  lock washers (sizes?)
 o  ivory soap
 o  misc. wire (guage?)
 o  wire nuts (size?)
 o  electrical tape
 o  self-tapping screws

any comments, suggestions, etc. are welcome!  Thanks!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 23:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hal Leininger <halgram@slip.net>
Subject: Reviving Old Rovers

I know I've seen the answer to the question I'm about to pose many times 
before but never dealing directly with the problem I must ask; What's the 
best way to revive a Rover that's been sitting outside for 10 years unused?

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
 Input:  messages 23 lines 983 [forwarded 136 whitespace 242]
 Output: lines 775 [content 514  forwarded 42 (cut  94) whitespace 212]



    
Back
	
    
Forward
	


	
    

        
  
	



Photos & text Copyright 1990-2011
	Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved. 

Digest Messages Copyright 1990-2011 by the original poster or/and
	Bill Caloccia,
	All rights reserved.