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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:53:09 +0100 (BST)
From: Peter Aslan <paslan@uk.mdis.com>
Subject: Re: Clutch problem conclusion.

On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, Russell G. Dushin wrote:
> is long enough.......
> ......we never did settle that one, folks.......

When I get the new connecting tube, ($9 Ouch), and new pins to take out 
the slack, I should be able to express an opinion on this.

> Thing is, yer return spring is pulling the actuating mechanism and hence the 
> slave piston to the top of the slave cylinder.  OK-that is where you'd
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
> IIa's came without it-yers can, too.  Take it off and put it someplace
> safe (for the day when you buy a new slave cylinder pushrod).

Interesting thought, as you say the only problem with this is that the 
Slave cylinder is riding the clutch, Oh and that the Slave may bottom out 
before the pedal does, as a full sweep is no longer possible.

> A PO of my Nige, when faced with a similar dilema, resorted to 
> putting the slave cylinder *below* the bracket that holds it (and this was
> with the ball busting "framed-box" type mount....it required that all the
> linkage had to be removed just to get the slave cylinder out...but it did
> bring the thing a half inch closer to the push rod). 

My slave cylinder is also like that, I though it was the way it was ment 
to be, more logical that way apart from getting the bugger out that is, 
but then its no soo dificult to remove the whole assembily realy.

> Are we to assume that you never did need the clutch and that all that was
> originally wrong was insufficient play in the pedal (so the slave never
> "bled out" and you kept bottoming on the base of the slave cylinder)??

Yes, Yes and oh my god Yes. When I think of the trouble this has been, 
and the expence of having a machine down during harvest, and the time 
taken to remove the G'Box. Although the box now has some oil in it and is 
clean for the first time in34 years. And I suppose the clutch was pritty 
buggered anyhow with al that slipping.

Regards, and thanks for your comments,

  Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton).           Louden Quill Award.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  Hertfordshire HP2 7HU England               E-Mail: paslan@uk.mdis.com 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  The Opinions herein are my own and, unless explicitly stated, may not 
  represent thoes of McDonnell Information Systems Ltd.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:00:52 +0100 (BST)
From: Peter Aslan <paslan@uk.mdis.com>
Subject: Re: Clutch problem conclusion.

On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, TeriAnn Wakeman wrote stuff about replacing all worn 
parts on clutch mechenism, some usefull part numbers also.

Terry, I have already ordered the sleve and Pins, plus the bearing, the L 
shaped operating arm looks Ok. I was planning to replace all worn parts, 
then fabricate a plate or two to take up any remaining slack, I dont plan 
on removing the G'Box again so I can replace the Release Mechenism.

Im note sure about the Idea of removing the return Spring to provide for 
a Self Adjusting slave though, any thoughts ?

Regards and thanks for the interest,

  Peter Aslan (aka Captain Norton).           Louden Quill Award.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  McDonnell Information Systems               Voice: (01442) 273324
  Boundary Way                                Fax:   (01442) 256454
  Hemel Hempstead                             
  Hertfordshire HP2 7HU England               E-Mail: paslan@uk.mdis.com 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
  The Opinions herein are my own and, unless explicitly stated, may not 
  represent thoes of McDonnell Information Systems Ltd.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Science V's Religion V's LRO's
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 9:08:57 BST

> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 32 lines)]
> -- 
>   Daryl
And then,from the same source,there's always
   Cuius testiculos habes
   Habes cardia et cerebellum

Cheers
Mike Rooth
(Pratchett for Prime Minister!)

------------------------------

From: Spenny@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:10:05 -0400
Subject: Mysterious jumping water

someone wrote...
large bonnet with a dip in the middle collects water 
at any speed, just watch it flow around. When braking, this 
water is thrown forward by its own inertia, dropping into 
space in front of the truk, then flying up and onto the screen

This *proves* that the mailing list affects *at least* my rover, 
i have driven in the rain plenty of times but this never 
happened to me until the other day. just *after* reading the original post
regarding this.

spenny

Watta ya gonna do?

line eater fodder

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Swivel balls
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:03:00 DST

John B. Friedman wrote
Any secrets for happy and shiny swivel balls? Do they getenough
lubrication fron inside or would grease on them help to keep
corroosion off?

***Paint them blue and wear gaiters***

Trevor Easton  

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:46:32 GMT -0600
Subject:       RE: Warn Winch mount

Leyland (or anyone else),
snip
> Toyoto 4-runner. After putting the winch on the front, I went through front
> disc rotors about ever 5000 miles. The dealer told me that the extra weight
> of the winch and frame past the front of the brakes did not cut it. Now,
snip

Please explain the mechanics of the above claim. I can see the extra 
weight wearing out springs, bushings, shocks, and any other part up 
front that connects between the axle and frame, but I can't visualize 
how a winch could cause you to wear out rotors (aside from the added 
force needed to stop because of the added weight, but this would be 
the case wherever the winch is).Granted it's odd that it happened 
after the winch install, but it sounds like the dealer didn't want to 
accept any liability for soft rotor material.
Waiting to be educated,
Tom

ps. Did the winch allow you to go faster, hence more braking force 
needed and faster rotor wear? ;-)

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

From: William Terry <wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com>
Subject: Re. Tell Me About Your Rover "Campers"
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:12:09 -0400 (EDT)

______________W__i__l__l__i__a__m_____D__a__n_____T__e__r__r__y______________
  How do we acquire wisdom along with all these shiny things? (David Brin)

  wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com
  http://glenfiddich.minerva.bah.com:8062/CyberJungle.html
  MINERVA Development Team, Booz, Allen & Hamilton

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:09:25 GMT -0600
Subject:       Re: RN or AB engine parts???

> Hey folks I'm doing a complete rebuild of my 2 1/4 petrol engine and need 
> to know if anyone has any words  of wisdom on either RN or AB  engine parts.
> AB is a good bit cheaper..but are the parts crap? Do you really get what 
> you pay for with RN or am I paying a big price for the wrapper that has 
> the "official logo" on it???

I know that back in the '80's ABP had a problem with piston crowns 
separating. I don't know what they're selling now. AE engine parts are 
good (they're OEM for a lot of major European mfgs. including Rover.
I don't know if they are available anymore in the US but they were, 
last I knew, in Canada. Most machine shops can get them if they're in 
the US.
Tom

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

From: Bill Yerazunis <crash@concentra.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:27:41 -0400
Subject: re: Crashes and Impacts

Trevor Easton says:
<In order to provide a suitable crumple zone for compliance with US specs the 
<frame of the Discovery had to be weakened! The idea is, I guess to dissipate 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
<protect the passengers". The real answer to all these problems is not to hit 
<things.

Having crawled under numerous vehicles (both healthy and rather bent) in 
my (also healthy but bent) life, I have gotten pretty good at recognizing 
the "energy absorption" areas of vehicles.  One very common giveaway is the
"accordion pleat" area, another is the "dented angle" (where a folded box-beam
or girder section intentionally is reduced in cross-section to provide a 
fold-point or hinge for energy absorption.

My Discovery shows neither of these telltales anywhere.  The frame looks 
like it was designed to be as strong as possible to let the seat belts do 
the energy absorption.  I guess with a 6000+ lb GVWR you can get away
with that- successfully.

Note also that the Discovery does NOT comply with passenger-car standards;
as it's legally a medium-duty truck, not a passenger car (or so says the
California/Massachusetts Emissions Compliance Testing sticker under my
hood).

	-Bill Yerazunis (owner of Sally Xray)

------------------------------

From: hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:34:15 EST
Subject: Re[2]: Warn Winch mount

How about this...

F=uN    Friction force equals coefficient of friction times normal 
(perpendicular) force.

Take the vehicle as the body in question.  Sitting still, the weight on the 
front tires = the weight on the back tires assuming the CG is halfway between 
them, otherwise the equal and opposite reactions on the tires (by the road) 
would be unbalanced, and the veh would flip end over end as a result.  Now, move
the CG closer to front tires.  This changes the moment arms of the road's 
reaction (normal) force.  The veh doesn't spontaneously flip because a greater 
force acts on the front tires, the ones with the shorter moment, to keep the 
torque applied at front and back balanced around the CG.

Now move the CG so it's right over the front wheels.  There's no weight on the 
real wheels (you can tell because, again, the veh doesn't do a somersault),i.e.,
N=0, so the friction force the rear brakes absorb when you hit the pedal is 
zero.  All the braking is done where all the weight is.

Either that or it's Maggie's fault.

With apologies to Sir Isaac Newton for any misstatements,
Hank (This is what you get for taking Physics in high 
school instead of "Family Living.") Lapa
;-)

   * * * * * * * * * * * * *   <--  symbolic 13 stars
snip
> Toyoto 4-runner. After putting the winch on the front, I went through front 
> disc rotors about ever 5000 miles. The dealer told me that the extra weight 
> of the winch and frame past the front of the brakes did not cut it. Now, 
snip

Please explain the mechanics of the above claim. I can see the extra 
weight wearing out springs, bushings, shocks, and any other part up 
front that connects between the axle and frame, but I can't visualize 
how a winch could cause you to wear out rotors (aside from the added 
force needed to stop because of the added weight, but this would be 
the case wherever the winch is).Granted it's odd that it happened 
after the winch install, but it sounds like the dealer didn't want to 
accept any liability for soft rotor material.
Waiting to be educated,
Tom

ps. Did the winch allow you to go faster, hence more braking force 
needed and faster rotor wear? ;-)

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:27:33 +0100
From: cw117@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk (Charlie Wright)
Subject: RE: Warn Winch mount

At 8:46am 25/7/95, Tom Rowe wrote:

>Please explain the mechanics of the above claim. I can see the extra
>weight wearing out springs, bushings, shocks, and any other part up

I suspect that more forward weight does increase the load on the front
wheels more than the rear wheels. Since the reason front brakes take most
of the braking force in the first place is that weight transfer puts more
weight/traction on front tyres in a stop, I can see how changing the
balance could increase the braking required _disproportionately_ to the end
with the new weight.  Still, I can't see a winch making that much
difference overall.... it's just not that heavy (no more than a few
passengers would be...)

Do families of four wear out brakes faster than single men/women?  Hmmmm.

Charlie

C. R. Wright                                    Dept. of Genetics
+44 (0)1223 333970 telephone                    Univ. of Cambridge
+44 (0)1223 333992 telefax                      Downing Street, Cambs.
cw117@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk                        CB2 3EH, England

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 07:36:34 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: '56 Series I 107 5-door for sale...

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: '56 Series I 107 5-door for sale...
Hello my friends,

I found a '56 Series I for sale, I'm fairly certain he'd take $2200 for.
I am sort of interested, since this is the same year I was born! It is
in original condition (Not butchered up with any major modifications)
except for the temperature gauge, which is some cheap unit. It has dual
tanks, and series II differentials. 6 passenger, with the rear bench
seat that folds into a bed, (Wish my 109 could do that!) and a safari
top. (No overdrive.)

My thought was to possibly restore it, and make some $$? Is that likely
for this condition and age? Let me describe the condition (the faults):
Needs paint, minor body work, (probably less than $700 worth), door
panels and headliner all seem to have very minor tears or splits in the
seams, (replacement?) rubber floor mats, temperature gauge, MAJOR
CLEANING, axle straps, all new rubber, (door seals and window seals,
etc...) tires, wiring repairs, (typical Lucas- ie: wipers worked if you
wiggle the wire...), has the "opaque" sliding windows on all 4 doors,
but the drivers window was broken by vicious vandalous varments, and
needs replacing. Actually, all 4 would probably need replacement to look
right.

It runs, shifts, etc... no unusual sounds but needs a tune-up. Has the
original purchase paperwork, and brochures from the same year, full
documentation of service since around 1958, has been "all over the
world" (Saudi, Germany, Switzerland...) TOTALLY rust free!! No signs of
any sort of frame rust!

I can see some real potential for it... but then again, I can see
spending Thou$and$ on it... (Money pit) and not recovering it... Anyone
know what a restored '56 107 would be worth in the USA?

Would I most likely end up breaking even on this? Spend $2200 on it,
then $3000 finding original parts and repairing, then sell for $5500,
netting $300 for my 3000 hours of labor, blood, sweat, and tears?

Am I just being sentimental, since it's "my age"?

Help me! I'm hung up on Rovers and want to "collect the set"! ;-)

Thanks, Dave (now completely mad too!) Brown

 #=====#         #========#          -------,___
 |___|__\___     |___|__|__\___      |--' |  |  \_|_
 | _ |   |_ |}   | _ |  |   |_ |}    |  _ |--+--|_  |
 "(_)""""(_)"    "(_)"""""""(_)"    ||_/_\___|__/_\_|}
                                       (_)      (_)
 1971 "88" IIa   1970 "109" IIa     1994 Discovery       (room for one more?)

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:42:54 -0400
Subject: Re: RN or AB engine parts???

>anyone has any words  of wisdom on either RN or AB  engine parts.  AB is a
good bit cheaper..but are the parts crap?

I've been using AB since the early '70's and have had no problem with
anything they've sold.  I use RN as well, but usually for the availability of
some specific part or piece that's unique to them.  Price usually steers me
towards AB, and over the last few years, I can't recall any part that hasn't
come in a "Genuine Parts" wrapper anyway.

The people at both AB & RN are very knowledgable and helpful, and both, I
believe, offer restoration discounts for rebuilds.  You can talk with Lanny
at RN or Brad at AB for more info, but I think the price difference will add
up to a sizeable sum on a rebuild.

-

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Timing gears
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:48:44 UNDEFINED

lro@team.net

Timing gears

Re the thread a while ago about fitting timing gears and is it worth
it.....It is worth a look to see what is said about premature timing
belt failures on 2.5 diesels in LRO Aug, p118-120. Also the extra timing
precision re MOT emissions tests might be worth thinking about. My 90 2.5 
deisel n/a has a gear conversion (fortunately before the belt snapped, and is,
according to he tester, the cleanest Landrover he's tested.

-----------------

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Re : Crash test dummies
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:49:51 UNDEFINED

Re : Crash test dummies

>God knows what would happen if a LR got hit from the side.  A stock
>SIII would probably kill the driver as the impacting vehicle would 
>crumple on the chassis and force the seatboxes up to the roof.  Squash.
>That assumes it gets hit by a car... A truck would probably take the
>body off the chassis!

Farmers in Anglesey have never learned how to cope with junctions. One in a 
110 van pulled out in front of a Volvo (The BIG station wagon) doing about 
60mph and was pushed sideways thru a wall by the impact. The Landrover had a 
big dent in the side and looked as if it would take a cuouple of hours in the 
barn with a big hammer to straighten it out. The Volvo was only recogniseable 
as such from teh turret backwards.

I like the way Landrover handles the safety issue of crumple zones. The best 
place for em is on the other car. Also plods like to crash in Range Rovers cos 
they are big solid cages that dont bend. So the crash is the other guy's 
problem. Plods are good at crashing and know a lot about it.

----------------

------------------------------

From: kirkwood@strider.fm.intel.com (Clayton Kirkwood)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:29:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Another new Disco owner

On Jul 24,  7:39pm, a-robw@microsoft.com wrote:
> Subject: Another new Disco owner
> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 11 lines)]
> conditioner seems to barely keep up. Which is worrisome since I live in
> Seattle (a place not exactly famous for it's sunshine and warm weather.)

Well down here in desert Sacramento, the a/c is definitely nice but
underpowered: our saturn's a/c and most others do better. Be happy that you
are in a cool climate!!

> loads of fun! I suspect this silly smile I have will fade eventually, too.
> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

Nah, it won't fade away for a good long time. I have had our disco for three
months, and I still derive great pleasure just getting in or touching the
outside. I'm sure I still have some dopey grin on my face. Every time my wife
and  I get in *her* car (and I always drive then), I can't control the "I
sure like driving your car..." comment. It just slips out...

Enjoy!!

>  -- Bob Watson
> a-robw@microsoft.com
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> Disco owner for 4 hours and counting
>-- End of excerpt from a-robw@microsoft.com

-- 
Clayton R. Kirkwood, FM1-58, 916 356-5838

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:34:04 -0700
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Clutch problem conclusion.

In message <01HT9JSXVB5U9VV84T@delphi.com>  writes:
> TeriAnn's advice.... 
; 
> TeriAnn's advice.... 
; > There you even have British Pacific parts numbers 800-554-4133 and their
; > phone number.  Thats half the work done alredy.
; > 
> TeriAnn's advice.... 
; Good call with the phone number TeriAnn... the guy's in England...
;
One of the problems with not seeing all the headers and having a single group 
address, sometime its difficult to tell where someone is located..  Oh well, at 
least he has a list of parts he needs and people in the US who have the same 
problem, and I can't believe we were the only two, now have a parts list, and 
part numbers.

> Gee.. kids these days...

Nicest thing anyone said to me today..Thanks ;^)

TeriAnn

OK so I replied to a reply and not the original posting geeee  or OOOPPS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:51:13 -0700
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Prices of Land Rovers in US

In message <199507250307.WAA23750@butler.uk.stratus.com> Roger Sinasohn writes:

; > Is it me or have things gotten a bit out of hand in the way of 
; > second-hand Rovers.  
> I recently saw a '93 110 for sale in the SF Chronicle for $52,000.  If the 
; original list price was $40K (I think?), that represents a 30% increase in 
> value over 2-3 years.  And it wasn't even a low #/500 (somewhere in the high 
; 400's?).  That's a pretty good investment, if you ask me!  
; 
; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Uncle Roger     

Roger I paid US$350 for my 109 two door. Considering it has a good body, good 
frame, recently replaced radiator, rebuilt engine, transmission, tie rod ends, 
new swivel ball pins, front bearings, complete replacement to entire brake 
system including the steel lines with a new dual power brake system, big winch, 
duel front petrol tanks, and 5 gal propane tank, I figure I could get at least 
US$7K for her inspite the fact that she needs paint badly and the duct tape seat
covers are getting frayed.  Why if I actually get her painted and new seats I 
suspect she would be worth over US$10K.  Not bad for an initial $350 investment

 plus untold thousands spent along the way :*)

TeriAnn
What do I care what she is worth, I never plan to sell her anyway, so the value 
is meaningless.

------------------------------

From: DANCSC@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 11:56:12 -0400
Subject: black D90 for sale....

In a message dated 95-07-25 09:26:25 EDT, you write:

>-Rick
>'94 D90 - for sale, $90K, black, 9.8K miles,
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
>LSI Logic Corporation
>(408) 433-7149

hey rick... is this a typo? this price seems a bit low.  I was thinking you
should be up around the 140k mark to be fair to the competition, however if
90k is truly your selling price, then I will send a cashier's check today.
Danarosa

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:08:54 +0059 (BST)
From: Charlie Wright <cw117@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Timing gears

>From what I've seen/read, I think I'd consider the conversion very 
seriously on a 2.5, but I suspect I'd not make the effort on my 2.25 
(with chain).

Charlie

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Clutch problem conclusion.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 12:47:10 EDT

Captain Norton is waffling:

> Im note sure about the Idea of removing the return Spring to provide for 
> a Self Adjusting slave though, any thoughts ?

Just *try* it.  Again, later IIa's (like '66 or '67 onward...even before
the "classical" late IIa's) DON'T HAVE THIS SPRING AT ALL. (Nigel, a 
'60 SII, did have one, but RoverRoach, had since new in '67, and the
RedRover, another '67 but with one PO, don't have them.)

And, amidst that new bundle of parts, did you get a new clutch slave
pushrod???

If you did, can you measure it up for us?  There's five or six of us
out here wondering if our rods are long enough.

Many thanks,
rd/nigel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:46:10 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Re: '56 Series I 107 5-door for sale...

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Re: '56 Series I 107 5-door for sale...
Jan,

It's in Arizona, near Phoenix. As a 1st Rover, hard to say. Depends on
what you want to do. 4 cyl, F-head around 56 horse power! Max speed of
around 47mph! Very "armored car" like in appearance. Series II-III have
bigger engine with about 50% more power (and still slow as all...
especially on mountain hills), different body, (Series I has completely
vertical sides, II-III have a rounded top edge along the side at top of
door height) II-III's have self cancelling turn signals. Not too much
else that's radically different though. Series I seemed narrower, but
don't know for sure... Although similar in appearance, I don't think a
lot of parts will interchange between the series I and II-III's.
II-III's are more "refined" in appearance. (Using the term rather
loosely. Relative to a series I, that is...)

Don't know if this helps.... Do you want a restoration project? Or
something to take out and use? I wouldn't want to "use" this one.

Good luck! BTW, where are you?

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead
*** Reply to note of 07/25/95 08:43
=========================================================================
   Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:43:59 MST
          id AA19923; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:40:49 -0700
95 11:35:08 EDT
Posted-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 11:36:47 EDT
	id AA22847; Tue, 25 Jul 95 11:36:47 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 11:36:47 EDT
From: jib@big.att.com (Jan Ben)
Subject: Re: '56 Series I 107 5-door for sale...

Dave, where is the car?
I am looking  for a first LR.  I was thinking of a series IIa/III 109".
Are there major improvements over I?
Whould you recommend this vehicle as the entry into the LR asylum?
Jan
jib@big.att.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 09:52:34 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: So... are they "real" then?? I'm still confused...

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: So... are they "real" then?? I'm still confused...

Robin,

I'm still confused... do the infamous diesel 110's really exist? There
was so much uncertainty and mystery during the flood of interest that
anyone in their right mind would *have* to be skeptical. But then, as LR
owners, are we in our right minds? Or is the rest of the world off their
rockers?

Anyway... If they are in fact real, and available, Please tell me/us
how, and where. I still have some proceeds left from the sale of my
Disco. (Yes, sadly, it is sold.) :-(

Please inform!!!

Thanks,

Dave (out of my mind) Brown

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Independent Nation?

On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, William L. Grouell wrote:

>   I know this is not PC (I don't have a .edu address) but, the US homicide
> rate for whites is less than most European counties. It is a problem with a
> certain US sub-culture, not borders, gun laws or main stream US culture.

	All is fine since some are safe.  Bugger the rest?  Before you heave
	stones check out the amount of glass in your house when compared to
	others...

>  This is not the forum for political/cultural debate, but I will point out left
> wing propaganda, when it is served up, especially on an international alias.

	And this from a country where the biggest growth industry is building
	more prisons to fill with these "certain sub-cultures".  May I suggest
	a few evenings with the shortwave listening to what other 
	cultures and countries have to say about your country without any
	problems outside of certain sub-cultures?  What you consider 
	"left wing" is mainstream or right-wing politics elsewhere.
	
	BTW, what's wrong with a .edu address?  You imply all with one are
	automatically pseudo-communist (which is very naughty in the USA)
	and by extension somewith an education is dangerous, shouldn't
	be believed... etc etc etc...

	Rgds,

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:07:25 -0800
From: holland@catapent.com (Shannon Holland)
Subject: large/r fuel tank for D90

So, I'm really really happy with my D90 except for one, small, thing - the
gas tank. I don't particularly mind the poor gas mileage in terms of higher
gas costs, but having to fill it up every other day (and, more importantly,
having to cart lots of extra gas on long trips in the boonies) is somewhat
annoying.

I know you can get second tanks for the Series vehicles - how about the
D90? I would love to get either one larger tank or a second reserve tank.

Thanks for any info!

Shannon

------------------------------

From: JEPurnell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:08:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Disco Purchase/Basket with ants.

In a message dated 95-07-25 06:29:50 EDT, you write:

> But the "cookie" had ants all over it. We are waiting to
>have the hitch stuff arrive. (They have to remove the CD player: we didn't
>get it at 1000 when the salesman indicated we can get the equivalent pioneer
>at Circuit City or its ilk for around 550). The kids love sitting in the
jump
>seats especially over bumps and around corners. The baby cries and goos so I
>don't know what she feels really.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>Clayton R. Kirkwood, FM1-58, 916 356-5838
>From: Andrew Grafton <A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk>

Yeah, ants on the cookies sounds sort of familiar.  The basket with my D90
had good stuff in it, until I tried to eat it.  All was stale, the tea, the
cookies, wine biscuits, and the toffee.  After a few back and forths with
thedealer, and a lot of talk of CSI (consumer satisfaction index) between
salesman and manager, the manager got on the phone and had his parts guy get
"one of those special baskets in the corner I had you put aside for me..."
 It was labelled Land Rover County Classic.  It was a much better basket,
apple wine, wine biscuits, wonderful Lemon choc chip cookies.  I figured
since I'll be paying for that basket for a long time, I wanted to eat
everything in it, and I aint gonna eat no stale choc chip cookies for almost
thirty thousand dollars.  All in all, it turned out great, now I have 4 Land
Rover Mugs and a D90. (anybody figure out how to drink tea, shift, and keep
your pants dry while trail riding a D90?)
 John.

------------------------------

From: JEPurnell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:12:31 -0400
Subject: Re:  Another new Disco owner

In a message dated 95-07-25 06:29:52 EDT, you write:

> The vehicle was delivered in perfect condition except the rubber trim 
>around the rear side window has some bizzare rust color stuff on it that 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>Disco owner for 4 hours and counting
>------------------------------
Same stuff on my Defender front windshield seal.  Dealer cleaned most of off
at service, but it looked just like rust, scared the heck out of me when I
actually took notice of it.  
 
John

------------------------------

From: JEPurnell@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:12:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Cost of new Def90

In a message dated 95-07-25 06:29:51 EDT, you write:
>From: Leland J Roys <roys@hpkel13.cup.hp.com>
>Subject: Cost of new Def-90?
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 15 lines)]
>roys@cup.hp.com
>------------------------------
I have a red 1994 Def90 also, it had air conditioning installed at the
factory, rather than dealer staff hacking their way through, it has the new
Bestop full premium top, I got the back seat and the safari cage, Alloy
wheels too.  I paid 27,000 for it. (Add the tax and license to that, about
$29,900.   **Leland, when you say out the door, do you mean incl tax &
lic.?).  The truck had 150 miles on it from a previous "sale" that fell
through for lackof financing on the buyers part.  Also the dealer had a 95
model on the lot for display, and kept this 94 in the back out of site.  I
think I caught them at a good time to deal,as they really wanted the 94 to go
away.  

While at the dealership, another defender came in and the owner wanted to
trade it in on a RR, I talked to him  aside, figuring I could bypass the
dealer altogether and buy a 1500 mile pristine defender that had gone from
the Beverly Hills Hotel offices to the Beverly Hills Estates a few times (the
extent of its life of luxury), but the guy said he paid over 35,000 for it
and wanted at least 33,000.  Didn't make sense to me, I'll take the new one
for less, and get the full warranty and the picnic basket...  That green
defender had full Tickford top, rear seat, NO AIR COND, carpet kit, brush
guard and side steps.  

After the dealer scratched my plastic windows at the 1200 *free* service, I
offered to settle for a surrey top at $125.  All in all, I was happy, the
windows are gonna get scratched  anyway, and (with the top off) the Southern
California sun was boiling away what few brain cells I have left.  Heck the
rear window already, at 2000 miles, has the outline of the rear brake light
bar beat into it, or rubbed into it, or emblazoned, or smeared, or..., so I
solved that with the surrey top and the tonneau cover!  It be a brisk ride
in, but the ride home is worth it all.  

Hope to meet some of you at a future event.

John 
CARB, Engineer
Defender90
JEPurnell@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:31:57 +0059 (BST)
From: Charlie Wright <cw117@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: black D90 for sale....

On Tue, 25 Jul 1995 DANCSC@aol.com wrote:

> >-Rick
> >'94 D90 - for sale, $90K, black, 9.8K miles,

 	 [ truncated by lro-lite (was 8 lines)]

> >LSI Logic Corporation
> >(408) 433-7149
 
> hey rick... is this a typo? this price seems a bit low.  I was thinking

You think he means 90k miles, black, $9.8k? (just wishin')

Charlie

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:35:41 +0059 (BST)
From: Charlie Wright <cw117@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Clutch problem conclusion.

On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Russell G. Dushin wrote:

> If you did, can you measure it up for us?  There's five or six of us
> out here wondering if our rods are long enough.

Uh-oh, I think I hear limmericks in the distance...

cw

------------------------------

From: Paul Orland <paul@clinicom.com>
Subject: '87 Range Rover Advice
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 11:40:43 MDT

I am looking at buying a U.S. spec '87 Range Rover,
auto, 56K miles.

What should I be watching out for on this early of a RR?

Any particular problems to be aware of?
  
- Paul. 

I prefer email respnses due to the *huge* volume of the LRO list, which
I recieve in digest form.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Orland 

  paul@clinicom.com  

------------------------------

From: Russell Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: large/r fuel tank for D90
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 10:50:06 PDT

 I'll second that request.
220 miles on a tank is a bit confining.
Russ
> To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 21 lines)]
> D90? I would love to get either one larger tank or a second reserve tank.
> Thanks for any info!
> Shannon

------------------------------

From: Russell Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Disco Purchase/Basket with ants.
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 11:00:51 PDT

> thirty thousand dollars.  All in all, it turned out great, now I have 4 Land
> Rover Mugs and a D90. (anybody figure out how to drink tea, shift, and keep
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> your pants dry while trail riding a D90?)
>  John.
John, 
I have know trouble talking on the phone, drinking tea, and shifting
the D-90 at the same time, but put me in the range rover with those
leather seats, and an auto trans, I spill every time.... go figure...

Russ Burns
90 R-Rover
94 D-90

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 11:07:00 -0700
From: growl@hsmpk14a-101.Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell)
Subject: Re: Independent Nation?

Response taken off the LR alias.

R, bg

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of new Def90 (fwd)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 16:00:38 EDT

Re: cost of D90s, 110s, etc.

Here goes again.......

I know of a '94 D90, ARBs, front AND rear Warn winches (12,000
and 8,000 lb, respectively), RR springs, custom (and very nice,
I might add) skid plate (on BOTH the diff and protecting the
steering bits), the 110 yards of Hela lighting, etc. etc. etc
....... hit front and rear (it did in two toyotas and a mazda)
but repaired to customers satisfaction .......

THAT SOLD FOR $20K.

with about 20K on the clock.

And I didn't buy it, but could have, but I like Nigel more, and
so did the owner, and he like his Unimog more, too.

patience, my friends,
and don't just buy for profit,
rd/nigel

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 24 Jul 95 23:02:58 EDT
Subject: Vacuum hoses on a '74? Where do they GO?

Before you say "Check the manual, sod!" my manuals don't
cover it... bummer.

I have what seems to be a vacuum connection on the oil filler pipe,
a triple tap off the manifold by the carburetor (1 large with a 45 deg.
pipe in it, two small under the pipe's mounting), and one on the
vacuum advance on the distributor.

Nearest I can figure is that 1 of the manifold runs goes to the
distributor, the big pipe connection goes to the oil filler pipe,
the second small one gets capped...no?

Opinions? Facts? (Here?...never...<grin>) Name-calling?

     Alan

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Disco Purchase/Basket with ants. (fwd)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 16:10:17 EDT

> Yeah, ants on the cookies sounds sort of familiar.  The basket with my D90
> had good stuff in it, until I tried to eat it.  All was stale, the tea, the
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
> Rover Mugs and a D90. (anybody figure out how to drink tea, shift, and keep
> your pants dry while trail riding a D90?)

OH HACK!

Nigel had a flat ol' stale Heineken in the back, just a teaspoon of
backwash left in it.  I gulped it down and didn't complain one bit.
Tasted great.  Lapped up the spilled 90 wt in the toolkit for afters.

get with the program,
rd/nigel

------------------------------

From: Nckcharles@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:43:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Handgun Murder Rate

Just wanted to second Bill G.'s comments on handguns in the US,
I live on the border of Vermont and New Hampshire.
Vermont has virtually NO gun carry restrictions and consistenly places
at the bottom of US crime statistics, Vermont dosen't even require a 
permit for concealed carry. New Hampshire has only the most minimal
carry permit requirements. You have to pay the selectmen $6.00 for a 4 year
permi and have a clean record.
Last time I looked New Hampshire was 3rd from the bottom of the
list for violent crimes among the fifty states.
Guess where the cities with the toughest gun laws place 
when it comes to murder rates?
            "If guns are outlawed, only the Government will have guns"
                                                            Edward Abbey
Regards to the group
>From NH/VT (The Beirut of the North;)
Nick

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Handgun Murder Rate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 19:50:42 EDT

> Just wanted to second Bill G.'s comments on handguns in the US,
> I live on the border of Vermont and New Hampshire.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
>                                                             Edward Abbey
> Regards to the group

Just to place this claim in perspective.....let us all remember that
Vermont is the ONLY state in the Union to have EVER placed a Socialist
in Congress (he's there right now-for those of you riding high on
your recent "sucesses" at the voting booth).....'tis a different kind 
of folk up there.....lots of mutual respect, lovin' thy neighbor, doin' 
unto others.....you just don't get that stuff in crowded 'merican cities, 
you know-maybe you don't.

If what you are really implying is that tough gun laws breed hardened
criminals then this out of the closet left winger will tell you that's CRAP!
What I'll say you've raised is a chicken before the egg question.  How do
you think Concord, NH, would fair with a few million low income under-
educated starving families packed within the confines of it's city
limits???

IF I owned a Disco, I'd want gun control there. (But in Nigel I'd smile, 
flash the thumbs up, and get waves in return.)

'K, fine, gun control is not needed EVERYWHERE. Agreed. 

But as one who lives too close for comfort to a major metropolitan area (NYC)
I just gotta tell ya-

I'm NOT a member of the NRA, and I vote,
rd/nigel

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 16:52:07 +0100
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: RE: Warn Winch mount

>> Toyoto 4-runner. After putting the winch on the front, I went through front
   disc rotors about ever 5000 miles. The dealer told me that the extra weight
   of the winch and frame past the front of the brakes did not cut it. Now,
   snip

>Please explain the mechanics of the above claim.  I can't visualize 
 how a winch could cause you to wear out rotors (aside from the added 
 force needed to stop because of the added weight, but this would be 
 the case wherever the winch is).

 For added safety on a Toyota the brakes are to be left ON when winching. *:)

 Michael Carradine, Architect                                 <cs@crl.com>
 Ph/Fax 510-988-0900                                       .plan available
 Mercedes-Benz Unimog 4x4 WWW page at:  http://www.crl.com/~cs/unimog.html

------------------------------

From: Russell Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: D-90 underheating
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 18:55:10 PDT

I have been wondering how hot my D-90 had to get for the vicious
fan to work. Since I am headed west pulling a 25 ft trailer I thought 
I might want to test it.
So I blocked the radiator with some cardboard as set out for about a 20 min. spin. All I managed to do was put the temp needle next to
the red mark, but the viscous fan did not positively engage. I the wondered if it was defective. Having just ruined the D-90 by putting
an ice maker (air conditioner) in it I thought I would try to get
the electric fan to come on by the temp switch (after all this is how it
works on the R-Rover). after looking into the matter I discovered 
that the temp switch on the D-90 is the opposite of the R-Rover.
It is closed when cold, and open when hot, it also is in series with
the low pressure switch. Well I drove it around some more trying
to get viscous fan to engage, or the ice maker compressor to shut
off. After 15 min. of driving I finally came to the conclusion that I
was not going to over heat the beast. When I got home I then stuck a
thermometer in numerous warm places (yep that was 98.6), and
the warmest reading I could get was about 160 on the intake manifold. (yea the exhaust would have been hotter).
So what does all this glop matter... It seems that when
the temp gauge is approaching the red the engine is just getting
warmed up. I suppose if I could get it in the red, the viscous fan
might engage. Maybe this weekend I will hook it up to the trailer
block the radiator and see if I can do some real damage.....

Russ
94 D-90 (if it had a heated windshield it would be the ultimite yuppy mobile
91 R-Rover.

------------------------------

From: jpappa01@InterServ.Com
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 20:33:21 PDT
Subject: Re: 	Crumple zones

Crumple zones did result in *weakening* the forward part of the chassis on 
`bag-equipped Discos and Rangeys. Front only as rear impact does not affect 
bag deployment.

In fact, the chassis rails from bumper back to just forward of axle housing is 
*weakened* to allow controlled, repeatable (in testing iterations req'd for 
certification) crush performance. From the housing back, the chassis has 
actually been strengthened. This as was correctly pointed out yesterday to 
dissipate energy in the crush area and then to present a strengthened 
passenger cell boundary to resist deformation. So yes, it is weaker. And yes, 
it is stronger.

Cheerz,
Jim - may your zones crumple - but not your bones!
`67 2A 88 5.0L Hybrid
`67 2A 109 5.0L Hybrid
`68 2B 110 F/C Diesel
`70 P6B 3500S
`90 Range Rover County
`93 D110
`95 D90

------------------------------

Date: 26 Jul 95 00:46:33 EDT
From: Matt Snyder/CA/MO <71450.2606@compuserve.com>
Subject: white Defender, Poway CA

Tonight I passed a white Defender in Poway, CA, port-to-port, but didn't notice
until too late to acknowledge.  My apologies!

-Matt
'88 RR

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 22:48:05 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Discovery Leasing - Don't! (was: Pricing)

> Can't offer help on the negotiating, but unless you can't afford the 
> payments or don't plan to keep it long, I think there is *no way* you 
> can come out ahead on leasing. I have yet to see a lease that comes 
> close to outright purchase, even with high interest payments.

Having spent 8 years dealing with Leasing and the Leasing industry, I can tell 
you right off the bat that leasing a car is not a good idea in any way, shape, 
or form, *unless* you:

o intend to trade the vehicle in in a couple of years, or
o you need significant business expenses for tax purposes, or
o you have legal/financial reasons not to own anything, or
o you are willing to pay twice as much not to have to worry about 
  disposing of the vehicle.

Leasing is *great* for things like big, expensive (>$100K) computers, 
containers, electronics for trade shows/conventions/concert tours/shows and 
plays, corporate apartments, copiers, and the like.  It's *not* good for 
ordinary joes.

Think about it.  If you could buy a house for the same cost as renting, with 
no down payment, which would you do?  What if you wanted to live in that house 
for 10 years?  Sure, if you own you have to paint the place yourself, pay for 
a new water heater yourself, etc.  *But*, when you move, you end up with 
something for all your work.  (Yes, I know, this could be a bit of a fallacy 
of faulty analogy (I'm reading a book on logic right now), but you get the 
idea.)

Anyway, I'd say bite the bullet and buy it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 22:48:14 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: LRO Murder Rate (Long) (was: Independent Nation?)

Tom told Dixon...
> >     You wouln't want to be part of us , or vice-versa. You don't need
> >     our handgun murder rate, ...

And Bill responded...
>   I know this is not PC (I don't have a .edu address) but, the US homicide
> rate for whites is less than most European counties. It is a problem with a
> certain US sub-culture, not borders, gun laws or main stream US culture.

>  This is not the forum for political/cultural debate, but I will point out
>  left wing propaganda, when it is served up, especially on an international
>  alias.

And so I get to use what I've learned from the book on logic I've been 
reading..

The argument could be (assuming Vancouver BC, Canada):

- Tom says the handgun murder rate is very high in the states
- But, the murder rate is highly disproportionate amongst different 
  racial groups in the Seattle and Vancouver (BC?) areas.
- Murder rates for whites are about the same in the US and Canada

-> Dixon would not be in significantly more danger in the US than in Canada.

(if the study was about Vancouver WA, USA, then the last premiss would be 
"Murder rates for whites are quite low in the US", and the rest would be about 
the same.)

There are a couple of problems with this.  First, there is the implied premiss 
that Dixon is White.  This (even though it may very well be true) is an 
unwarranted premiss, unless you know for a fact that he is, and I can't say 
for sure that he is, and I've met him face to face.  (He could certainly be 
Native North American.)  So you have a Fallacy of Unwarranted Premiss 
(specifically, a Fallacy of False Alternatives.)

Further, because the study doesn't seem to take into account some important 
factors, such as income level, education, and so on, which would have a 
significant bearing on the matter, the Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence is 
committed.  

And lastly, by making the assumption that because Dixon would be safe in 
Seattle, Dixon would be safe anywhere in the US, we have a Fallacy of Hasty 
Generalization.  He might not be safe in places such as New York, Detroit, 
Chicago, L.A., etc.

If, however, the intended conclusion was just that murder rates in the US and 
Canada are similar, the argument would look like this:

- Tom says the murder rate is higher in the US
- But, Murder rates in Seattle (US) and Vancouver (Canada) are similar

-> Murder rates in the US are not significantly higher than in Canada

Again, we have problems, in that the assumption that what goes for Seattle and 
Vancouver goes for the rest of the US and Canada is another Fallacy of Hasty 
Generalization.  

And basing the conclusion on Seattle and Vancouver as being representative of 
their respective nations could be considered a Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence, 
since the important factor that each city is very close to, and most likely 
heavily influenced by, a foreign country.  (That is, Seattle is more Canadian 
than most US cities, and Vancouver may be more American than most Canadian 
cities.)

Lastly, if the conclusion is meant to be something about the role of gun 
regulations on murder rates, we have a Fallacy of Invalidity, or a Non 
Sequitur, since the facts and data, though interesting, show nothing about 
deaths due to firearms versus other deaths, so there is nothing to draw a 
conclusion from.

Now, don't take this the wrong way.  Just because an argument contains faulty 
logic, the conclusion is not necessarily false.  Dixon may very well be as 
safe here in the states as he is at home on his couch.  And Murder rates may 
indeed be similar in the US and in Canada (I don't know; I haven't looked into 
it.)  But, the arguments put forth have logic flaws in them.  (Of course, I'm 
sure I commit the same errors all the time, so don't take it badly.)

If y'all are interested in this sort of thing, check out the book "Logic and 
Mr. Limbaugh", by Ray Perkins, Jr.  ISBN 0-8126-9294-2.  It was only $9.95, 
and is quite enjoyable.  Although the author is definitely a liberal, he 
doesn't make the book a Rush-bashing exercise, but takes Rush's written 
arguments (from his books) and analyses them from a logician's point of view, 
all the while teaching about logic.  So even if you are a DittoHead (fan of 
Rush's), this won't really piss you off.  (At least not too much.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 22:48:17 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Defenders in the US future?

Frank "get your CKD for NADA and your chicks for free" Twarog suggests...
> Defender kits could arrive duty-free and then be assembled at that 

I like it!  I think that that's a great idea, if US regs would allow it.  (Who 
knows, Rover could end up buying the Toyota plant in Fremont...)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 22:47:57 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Tell Me About Your Rover "Campers"

> I'm in the process of outfitting a 109 with cabinetry to allow using the
  truck as a camper (sleeping, storage, etc.).  It occurs to me that I've seen
  a few L-R campers with homemade bed/cabinet/etc. built-ins, and no two were
  alike.  If you, Gentle Reader, have a L-R camper, please advise how it is
> set up.  Maybe I can get some ideas to incorporate into mine.

If you're a member of LROA, (and you should be,) check in the last couple of 
issues of the Aluminum Workhorse.  There you'll find an article I did about my 
set up.  If you don't have it, let me know and I can e-mail you the text of 
the article.

As time permits, I'd like to do a whole series of articles like this for the 
AW.  (Unfortunately, time permits nothing at the moment.)  I'd be interesting 
in hearing what you find out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 22:48:08 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: WTB: Bench Seats

Ouch!  I paid $20 for mine (no seat cushion, though), and almost bought 
another one for $30 (with cushion.)  That's here in the SF Bay Area.  At the 
OVLR Birthday Party (Ottawa, Ontario), someone bought *two* of them for $7 
total.  Suffice it to say, I think $200 is a bit high!

Drop a note to Dixon Kenner of OVLR; apparently they're very common up there.

(Mind you, I'm assuming you mean the LR 2-person bench seats that face inwards 
in the back.  If you mean 2nd row of seats for a 4-door, I dunno.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

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From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 02:27:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Defenders in the US future?

> -Rick
> '94 D90 - for sale, $90K, black, 9.8K miles,
>           very rare, limited, NAS edition.

At 90K, yer peddlin' that rig to the wrong crowd! Rare edition or not - NO
D90 is worth that much...

Cheers
Mike

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From: Franz.Parzefall@Physik.TU-Muenchen.DE
Subject: Re: Defenders in the US future? 
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:09:30 +0200 (MET DST)

 
 > -Rick
 > '94 D90 - for sale, $90K, black, 9.8K miles,
 >           very rare, limited, NAS edition.
 
are you sure???? I recently was offered a new D90 TDi imported via
Italia for 35.000DM (~24k US$).
Franz
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Franz Parzefall     fparzefa@physik.tu-muenchen.de
       _______
      [____|\_\==
      [_-__|__|_-]           exmil. 110 2.5D
 ___.._(0)..._.(0)__.._
                                  

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