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Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:07:18 +0800
From: William.Grouell@Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell)
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr

> perspective which clashes with your own humorous misogynist reading of
> Pierre's story. Maybe you truly found it funny. Maybe you were actually
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> That's why you're scum.
> -jory

I thought it was funny. I think you're ridiculous.

BG

------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                 PC PRIMER
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q:  WHAT IS P.C.?

PC stands for Politically Correct.  We of the Politically Correct
philosophy believe in increasing a tolerance for a DIVERSITY of cultures,
race, gender, ideology and alternate lifestyles.  Political Correctness
is the only social and morally acceptable outlook.  Anyone who disagrees
with this philosophy is bigoted, biased, sexist, and/or closed-minded.

Q:  WHY SHOULD I BE PC?

Being PC is fun.  PCism is not just an attitude, it is a way of life! PC
offers the satisfaction of knowing that you are undoing the social
evils of centuries of oppression.

Q:  I AM A WHITE MALE.  CAN I STILL BE PC?

Sure.  You just have to feel very guilty.

Q:  WHY?

If you are a white male, your ancestors were responsible for practically
every injustice in the world- slavery, war, genocide and plaid sportscoats.
That means that YOU are partially responsible for these atrocities.  Now
it is time to balance the scales of justice for the descendants of those
individuals whose ancestors your ancestors pushed down.

Q:  HOW?

It's simple.  You've got to be careful what you say, what you think, and
what you do.  You just don't want to offend anyone.

Q:  YOU MEAN I SHOULD GUARD AGAINST OFFENDING ANYONE?

That's right.  Being offensive is destructive, and will not make the world
a harmonious utopia, like in John Lennon's IMAGINE.

Q:  HOW ELSE CAN I BE PC?

Oh, there are lots of ways.  For example, why buy regular ice cream when you
can buy "Rain Forest Crunch?"  Segrega..whoops..separate all of your garbage
into different containers:  glass, metal, white paper, blue paper, plastic,
etc.  Make sure that all your make-up has not been tested on animals. Try to
find at least sixty ways to use your water; when you take a shower, brush your 
teeth at the same time.  Then don't let the water go down the drain, use it to
irrigate your lawn.  Or better yet, replace your lawn with a vegetable garden.
Don't use aerosol.  

If you are fortunate enough to know your ethnic heritage, dress the part!
Don't do drugs.  You should listen to at least one of the following PC
musicians:  U2, REM, Sinead O'Connor, Sting, or KD Lang.

Harrass people who wear fur coats.  Remind them that an innocent baby seal was
mercilessly clubbed.  Or just yell, "FUR."  They hate that.
And don't EVER eat meat.

Q:  DON'T EAT MEAT?  WHY NOT?!

Cows are animals, just like humans are animals.  That means that they have
rights.  When you eat meat, you're oppressing animals!

Q:  SO ALL KILLING IS BAD?

No, not always.  Sometimes killing can be justified, like in the Persian
Gulf.  You have to be able to tell when an animal has rights, and when
it doesn't.

Q:  HOW DO I KNOW WHEN AN ANIMAL HAS RIGHTS?

The general rule is as follows:

          IF AN ANIMAL IS RARE, PRETTY, BIG, CUTE, FURRY,
             HUGGABLE, OR LOVABLE, THEN IT HAS RIGHTS.

Examine the following chart:

      RIGHTS                       NO RIGHTS
     --------                     -----------
      cows                         cockroaches
      cute bunnies                 flies
      dolphins in tuna nets        tuna in tuna nets
      whales                       sharks
      red squirrels                gray squirrels
      owls                         loggers
      harbor seals                 barnacles

Q:  WOW.  WHAT ELSE CAN I DO TO BE PC?

Hug a tree.  Rejoice each day in our cultural differences, for they are what
gives flavour to our great country.  Get in touch with your sexual identity.
Check your refrigerator for freon leaks.  Subscribe to National Geographic.
Search it for neat non-Western cultural traditions and costumes.  After you
read it, use the paper as an alternate fuel source.

Q:  I'M NOT SURE ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

If you are feeling unsure about your motivation, just remember.  YOU ARE
RIGHT.  It's that simple.  You are right.

Q:  HOW DO I KNOW IF AN ACTION IS UN-PC?

Good question.  It's important to know when someone is saying something
insensitive so that you can have that person removed from society.  The
guideline is as follows:

     Is the confrontation between two white people?
        Yes ->  The liberal is right.
        No  ->  The white person is oppressing the ethnic person.

Remember, many seemingly obvious issues, such as the railroading
of Mayor Marion Barry, the Clarence Thomas issue, and the Saint Mary's
University Carribean Society shut-down are really race issues.

Here's a fun practice drill for you:  See how many newspaper articles you can
make into race bias stories.  It's fun!  Some PCers are so good they can make
the weather report look like a KKK pamphlet!

Q:  WHAT SHOULD I DO IF I SEE SOMEONE DO SOMETHING NON-PC?

It all depends on the situation.  If you are not in a position of authority,
by all means report this activity immediately to whomever is in charge. If
your school leader, employer, or superior is hip to the trend of the 90s,
she or he will take the necessary steps to have the insensitive offender
disciplined.

Q:  BUT ISN'T THAT CENSORSHIP?

The Constitution never meant for racism, sexism and insensitivity to be
espoused by anyone.  That's not what free speech is about.  Some call it
censorship.  PCers call it "selective" speech.  Saying something negative
about a particular race or gender is just as damaging as, say, punching
them in the face.  We just can't allow that kind of verbal assault.

Q:  I'VE HEARD A LOT ABOUT PC WORDS TO REPLACE "BLACK," "INDIAN." ETC.

Yes.  That's part of the PC movement.  You see, part of the way we think
about people comes directly from the words we use to describe them. Take
"black" for instance.  Why should a person be judged by the color of
their skin?

Q:  YOU MEAN THEY SHOULD RATHER BE JUDGED BY THE CONTENT OF THEIR
CHARACTER?

No, I mean they should be judged by where their ancestors are from.  If your
great grandparents are from Africa, or Asia, or wherever, then you should
be identified by that fact.  You can even apply for special scholarships!

Q:  I'M A MIXTURE OF FRENCH, GERMAN, ENGLISH, AND RUSSIAN.  CAN I GET
ONE?

No.

Q  HEY, WOULDN'T A WHITE PERSON FROM LIBYA OR EGYPT TECHNICALLY BE AN
    AFRICAN-AMERICAN?

Technically, yes.  But that's not the kind of African-American we mean.
That is, we're REALLY talking about skin color, but we're pretending that
we aren't.  Another example:  A white South-African immigrant is not
an African-American or either.

Q:  HOW CAN I LEARN TO MAKE MY LANGUAGE MORE POLITICALLY CORRECT?

For more help, see the PC LEXICON at the end of the handbook.

Q:  I'D LIKE MY CHILD TO BE PC.  WHAT CAN I DO?

Well, for one thing, we should forcibly encourage students to volunteer
their time with philanthropies.  Also, we should re-emphasize non-Western
perspectives on history.  Finally, we should re-structure tests and quizzes
to reflect cultural biases.

Q:  I DON'T GET IT.

Well, the way the system works now, "select" under-represented minorities
who tend to do worse on entrance tests have lower standards of admissions
at school and work and receive preferential treatment.  This is unfair
and wrong.

Q:  IT IS?

Yes.  The truly PC way to do it is to have a different grading scale for
different groups which gives or subtracts points from the final score,
depending on who is taking the test.  If you are white, then you have been
benefited by society during your life.  That means that you lose
ten to fifteen points to make the test fair to everyone else.

Q:  I GUESS THAT SOUNDS RIGHT.

It IS right.  That's the beauty of PC.

Q:  WHAT ELSE DO I HAVE TO BE CAREFUL OF?

Humor.  PC people take every comment VERY seriously.  We will not accept
any comment, joke, remark, or anything that sounds like it could be a
racial slur.

Q:  GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE.

"What's black and white and red all over?" has been staple humor for
decades.  Not PC---it can be taken the wrong way.

In every day speech, try to use phrases like,
"Isn't that the pot calling the kettle African-American."  Any racial
jokes or jokes even mentioning culture or gender should be omitted.  True,
this mostly limits comedy to the level of sitcoms, but that's the price you
pay for social equality.

Q:  IS THAT ALL THERE IS TO IT?

Yes.  The Politically Correct belief is essentially a recognition that
people are diversely equal.  We rejoice in this equality by treating
people differently based on their equal individuality.  Hop aboard the
bandwagon...  Be PC.  Or you're an intolerant, racist, sexist
insensitive pig.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                PC LEXICON
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Insensitive Term"                         "Preferred Term"
------------------                         ----------------

-> ETHNICITY <-
(PC people do not recognize the term, "race," as valid)

Black                           -   African-American
                                    (NOTE:  DOES NOT INCLUDE
                                    LIBYANS, EGYPTIONS, WHITE
                                    S-AFRICANS.
                                    DOES INCLUDE
                                    PEOPLE WITH DARK SKIN REGARDLESS OF
                                    WHERE THEY ARE FROM OR WHERE THEY LIVE.)

Oriental                        -   Asian-American
                                    (NOTE:  NOT CONSIDERED "REAL" MINORITIES
                                    SINCE THEY TEND TO DO WELL)

Indian                          -   Native-American
                                    (NOTE:  THE FOLLOWING TEAMS ARE NOT PC:
                                       Atlanta Braves
                                       Cleveland Indians
                                       Kansas City Chiefs
                                       Washington Redskins
                                     AVOID THESE CITIES!!!)

Chicano                         -   Hispanic
                                    (NOTE:  THE FOLLOWING ARE NOT PC:
                                       Cheech and Chong
                                       Chico and the Man episodes
                                       Cisco Kid
                                       Rosarita Salsa
                                       Speedy Gonzales
                                       AVOID!  AVOID!

White Trash                     -   PC Unaware
                                    Rustically Inclined
WASP (white male)               -   Insensitive Cultural Oppressor (ICO)

->  GENDER  <-
(PC people don't like the word "sex" as it has confusing connotations)

Woman                           -   Womyn, Vaginal-American

Girl                            -   Pre-Womyn

Housewife                       -   Domestic Engineer

Fireman                         -   Firefighter

Stewardess                      -   Flight Attendant

Meter Maid                      -   Parking Enforcement Aduciator

Post Man                        -   Post Person

Mail Man                        -   Person Person

Policeman                       -   Law Enforcement Officer
                                    Baton Boy
                                    Cal. Clubber

Prostitute                      -   Sex Surrogate
                                    (Teen Victim.  See:  Broken Home)

Mankind, Human                  -   Earth Children

-> PEOPLE : SUB-GROUPS <-

Handicapped                     -   Physically Challenged
                                    Differently Abled
                                    Handi-Capable

Blind                           -  Optically Darker
                                   Photonically Non-receptive

Deaf                            -  Visually Oriented

Poor                            -   Economically Unprepared

Bum                             -   Homeless Person
                                    Displaced Homeowner
                                    Philosophy Major

Hunter                          -   Animal Assassin
                                    Meat Mercenary
                                    Bambi Butcher

Whaler                          -   Blubber Lovers

Old Person / Elderly            -   4th-Dimentionally Extended
                                    Gerontologically Advanced

Conservative                    -   Right Wing Extremist Fascist Pig

Drug Addict                     -   Chemically Challenged

Bald                            -   Comb-Free

Bisexual                        -   Sexually Non-preferential

Midget, Dwarf                   -   Little People
                                    Vertically Challenged

Convict                         -   Socially Separated

Insane People                   -   Selectively Perceptive     
                                    Mental Explorers

(person with)                       (person with)
Learning Disability             -   Self-Paced Cognitive Ability

Tree-Hugger                     -   Environmental Activist

Logger                          -   Wood Weasel
                                    Paper Pirate
                                    Treeslayer

Dead People                     -   Dysfunctional Earth Children
                                    Biologically Challenged
->  MISCELLANEOUS  <-

Broken Home                     -   Dysfunctional Family

HouseBroken                     -   Family Disfunction

Cattle Ranch                    -   Cattle Concentration Camp (CCC)
                                    "Moo-shwitz"

Senile Bag o' Bones             -   Alzheimer's Victim

Ghetto/Barrio                   -   (EHA) Ethnically Homogenous Area
                                    Pre-Integrated Pre-Nirvana

Hamburger                       -   Seared Mutilated Animal Flesh (SMAF)

Cheeseburger                    -   Adding Insult to Injury

Cheating (in School)            -   Academic Dishonesty

Used Books                      -   Recycled Books

Trees                           -   Oxygen Exchange Units

Gang                            -   Youth Group

Pimp-mobile, Low-rider          -   Culturally Responsive Transportation

Drunk/Trashed                   -   Spatially Perplexed

Slum                            -   (EOZ) Economic Oppression Zone

Delicatessen                    -   Corpse Farm
                                    Charnel House

Obese                           -  People of Mass
                                   Gravitationally Challenged

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 14:56:42 -0800
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instruction

So Pierre, have you always hated women?  

Granted no one should have their first driving instruction be offroading in a 
Land Rover male or female.  But to ridicule these young women who did not know 
how to drive is just plain unacceptable.  And the way you did it, as if these 
young women were a subhuman species that you personally find repulsive says a 
lot about you.  What I read from your message is that you hate women, and find 
them totally disgusting.  Maybe you should move to a place where you can be 
around males only.  It would clearly make you happier and women would not need 
to be exposed to you disgusting lack of maners and your narrowminded pea brained
views.

TeriAnn Wakeman        Large format photographers look at the world
twakeman@apple.com     upside down and backwards     
              
                         
                       

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 15:08:29 -0800
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr

In message <01HNZU0F8GEG939YZU@delphi.com>  writes:
> jory comments on Pierre's introduction to offroad tuition:
> > congratulations pierre. your writing style is vivid and passably well
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> drivel was great! I bet you wished it was you doing the instruction (didn't
> we all!!) 

Mike, What you too hate women?  I hadn't realized we had a number of women 
hating men in the Land Rover list.  

> "sexist and offensive"??? Who cares.. I laughed my butt off!

Have you considered sitting on the cooling fan while the engine is running?  I 
suspect it may be best single thing you can do for the rest of humanity.  If 
nothing else, it would vastly improve humanitie's gene pool.  
> Cheers
> > congratulations pierre. your writing style is vivid and passably well

Not hardly!

> Mike

I think you and Pierre should find a nice little desert island where you can 
rejoice in your sexual purity without having to be subjected by people who are 
differnt from you.

TeriAnn Wakeman        Large format photographers look at the world
twakeman@apple.com     upside down and backwards     
              
                         
                       

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:47:22 EST
From: jory@mit.edu (jory bell)
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr

[schnip ...]

>keep your pathetic,
>petty, college bonehead with nothing better to do, politics off the list.
>                                                        VERY CORDIALLY YOURS
>                                                        Mike Fredette
>                                                        Portland, Oregon

So, my critique of Pierre's posting is censorship, whilst calls to keep my
"politics off the list" are somehow a defense of free speech and free
expression.

Can you say double standard? I think you've been listening to a little too
much rush limbaugh (ultra-rightwing talk radio "personality" in the US).

You can't have it both ways. Either there is a marketplace of ideas, in
which case my analysis of Pierre et al is fair game. Or,there is strict
control of content of some sort (moderation, posting guidelines, capricious
mob rule, etc).

I am in favor of allowing people to post freely (although I would tend to
prefer that the land rover list stick to land rover related posts... if
only because I do not particularly enjoy the kind of ugliness this current
thread has exposed).
However, I don't see how this mean I have to forfeit any right of response?
Who's whining now?

Mike Fredette: I suspect you don't have a general objection to politics on
the list, just those politics that don't completely mesh with your rosy
"benny hill" world-view.

-jory

ps: I quite like monty python...

------------------------------

From: "John R. Benham" <BENHAM@WFOCLAN.USBM.GOV>
Date:          Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:21:12 +1100
Subject:       Overdirve/seatbelts

Dear LRO's,

    Rick Crider writes: `Overdrive Whine - is this normal? and 
`Where can I purchase retractable seat belts?'

    Yes, the overdrive whine is normal at higher speeds.  However, 
there are two things you can do to attenuate this `whine noise':

    1. Use a `cling type oil'.  I put in multi-weight 20/50 and the
       whine has decreased;

    2. Install sound deadening foam (J.C. Whitney) under the hump,
       both floor board panels, and under the center seat plate.
       This quietens the vehicle significantly.       

    As far as seat belts, Merseyside in Liverpool or Rovers North 
have genuine Land Rover inertia seat belts for direct installation.  
However, if you order these, remember that the `left' seat belt is the 
one where the latch is to the left and the `right' is where the latch 
is to the right of the seat (drivers seat in US).  It took me a while 
to figure this out when installing.  Perhaps they just switched box 
contents on `my' order as a joke!  One of these days, the British are 
going to understand that `they ' have the accent and `they' drive on 
the wrong side of the road, and `their' seat belts are reversed!

    Right youall'?!

Later,

John R. Benham
Spokane, WA  USA
1968 IIA 88 `Bwana Mobile'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:19:02 -0500 (EST)
From: reischer@ridgefield.sdr.slb.com (Andy Reischer)
Subject: Are there any other hybrids in the states.

Hello...

This is my first posting. I've been driving a swb for 13 years and got tired
of the stiff ride, couldn't afford a new 90 so I made one..... I have a few
loose ends left. I'm posting to see if anyone can help me with them. The rolling
chassis and engine are from a 89 3.9 RR. I kept the length at 100 inchs so I
cut down a 110 body to fit. I bought 110 soft top and cut it to fit also. The
problems I have are:
	1- 110 spedometer has larger diameter cable than 89 rr spedo cable.
	2- the rolling chassis is sprung for a heavy 89 RR. My hybrid is lighter
and I am unsure of what springs to put in.
	3- 4 speed auto shifts late when cold. and in new england it's cold
all winter.

Thanks for your help.

P.S. it is a joy to drive.

Andrew Reischer
Ridgefield CT USA

------------------------------

From: Bill Yerazunis <crash@concentra.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 17:58:05 +0500
Subject: Disco Truths (was: Oracle Questions)

Re: using the Disco's ABS as a traction-control system-

	I too tried it in the most recent ice-storm; more specifically,
	I went onto some ice, and then tried using various braking
	strategies with throttle applied to see what worked best.

	Result: no strategy worked significantly better or worse than
	just not putting the brakes on.  This included one, two, three,
	and four wheels, all on ice.  Sally _always_ moved, and usually
	pretty well, too.

	Conclusion: either I'm missing something, or it doesn't help.

		-Bill

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Oil Filter Adaptors
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 14:32:00 EST

The cast aluminium adaptor works well with one word of caution. It can be 
(and has been) fitted backwards. In this position the pressure switch is on 
the port from the pump. Pressure shows as good but the filter has a check 
valve which prevents the oil flowing to the bearings with the obvious result 
on engine longevity. Also the spin on filter is not as rugged if it has a 
rock thrown at it. I have some adaptor plates available with two 1/2 npt 
ports these can connect to a remote filter and oil cooler. Call me if you 
would like one.
Trevor Easton (905) 945-6128 Miss Golightly 1962 88" SW. 

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Retractable Belts. 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:43:47 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>

Rick asks

>Any ideas on retractable seat belts for a Series III that utilizes the
>existing mounts and doesn't look 'added on' or JC Whitneyish?    Seat belts
>are the law here and I believe in them anyway, but the stock belts are a
>hassle.

and someone adds

>I installed a set on my IIa a few years ago.  I either got them from Atlantic
>British or Rovers North.  They are inertial shoulder belts that fit very
>nicely in a series truck.  The retractor spools attach on the backside of the
>bulkhead and go through a loop attached to the top of the bulkhead.  It is a
>very clean installation.

 The better answer is to go to your local wrecking yard and grab a set of belt/
inertia reel assys out of a late model Saab 900. Mine cost me 40 bucks. They are
almost identical to the stock Rover units selling for 100 bucks in the RN catalog.
They bolt right in to the hole on the bulkhead used for attaching a truck cab. Even 
the thread pitch/diameter is the same for all the bolts so grab them out of the Saab
too.

------------------------------

From: "Kerner, Robert" <FORK0@smtp.ais.ucla.edu>
Subject: lockers
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 08:54:00 PST

Someone asked about lockers.  I called LockRight(1-800-LOCKERS) and they 
said they should have a differential locker by March.  Of course I called in 
March but they expected them soon.  There other lockers were around 
$250-$350.  Quite a bit cheaper than ARB, and you don't have to worry about 
any the lines or compressor.

My question is about the front engine oil seal.  Is it as straight forward 
as it seems?  Just remove radiator and front panel, Pulley, and timing 
cover, and there you are???  I am making an all out attempt to slow my oil 
leakage to a minimum, (2qt's every 300 miles, and I am not burning it, 
seemed like a lot)  I do realize I will never make it stop leaking since it 
was designed to leak.  I wonder if the English thought that cars were 
supposed to leak, kind of like bleeding, if the fluid was coming out then 
stuff couldn't get in.  Hey that's a clever thing right?

 -Rob Kerner
fork0@smtp.ais.ucla.edu
Go Bruins Basketball in the big dance!!!

1973 Series III 88 Hardtop
1955 Morris Minor Traveller (Woody)
1994 Toyota Celica (Wifes Car)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:11:56 EST
From: CXKS46A@prodigy.com (MR ALEXANDER P GRICE)
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE

My service provider has acknowledged problems dating back to an "upgrade"
(should I say 'retrograde?') in November, not the least of which was
messages getting cut in half and pieced back together again.  Just 5 min.
ago they finally admitted to it...my reply was AMF!  So until I set up a
new account, I'm dropping off for a few days.   See ya'....

    *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"-----*
    |                                                      |
    |  Sandy Grice,  Rover Owners' Association of Virginia |
    |  E-Mail: NOT!   @prodigy.com       FAX: 804-622-7056 |
    |  Voice: 804-622-7054 (Days)  804-423-4898 (Evenings) |
    |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA, 23508-1730 USA   |
    *------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 08:21:35 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Hella 550's, 1000's, 2000's... LR Discovery.

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Hella 550's, 1000's, 2000's... LR Discovery.
Henry writes...

> There is still room for more lights up front.  Once I got started , I just
> couldn't stop.  Actually, I think I'll stop here until I (maybe, they're
> really $$$) get a expedition rack.

Philosophers of old would say:
  "Can one ever really have enough illumination???" I think not!

> My current plan leaves  room for the multi-mount winch by Warn and Rovers
> North (which puts a Class III receiver up front).

Yes, I've seen that, looks really nice, but terrible approach angle. Still,
I like the benefit of using it front OR rear.

> Regarding your predicament, I have some questions.  First, is yours a 5 speed
> or auto? What optional equipment? Is it currently hard to get a Disco at the
> dealer?

As for my situation... Mine's black, automatic, leather, 7 seats, dual
sun roofs, dual a/c, rino bar, rear tail light guards (missing the left
side), tinted windows, pin stripes.

> The trouble with new cars is that they do all their depreciating in the first
> two years; especially the first.  Even if you paid more than sticker for the

  <<< Some "snippage" here. >>>

Unfortunately (for me) you're right about the depreciation. If I wasn't
so "bent" on getting the ultimate 4WD I'd have waited 2 years and got a
used one. Now, I'll have to wait another 2-3 years (from now) before I
can save enough to recover my loss, and get another. Also, by that time
there will have been additional depreciation. I really haven't had any
offers, asking $33K, but it looks like I'll have to go even lower. I
paid $38.5K. Dealer had one just like mine but without the rino bar or
rear a/c for $31.5K. This sold in the first 24 hours that it was there!
I understand that many dealers are still having a waiting list, but
mine was allocated around 30 extras for doing a major remodeling of the
facilities. That was a few months back. One day during that time, I counted 27
Disco's in stock, and last time I was there, (a few weeks back) they had
3-4 for sale, and 3-4 with "sold" stickers on. So... While my future
looks bright, (Phoenix area being "flooded" with Disco's that will one
day become for sale again) my present looks bleak. (Currently no problem
getting Disco's in Phoenix - ie: demand=low supply=high.)

Anyone want to take advantage of the laws of supply and demand?
Make an offer... I'm ready to listen.

Thanks,

Dave Brown - '94 Discovery - Phoenix Arizona USA

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 08:21:36 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Hella 550's, 1000's, 2000's... LR Discovery.

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Hella 550's, 1000's, 2000's... LR Discovery.
Henry writes...

> There is still room for more lights up front.  Once I got started , I just
> couldn't stop.  Actually, I think I'll stop here until I (maybe, they're
> really $$$) get a expedition rack.

Philosophers of old would say:
  "Can one ever really have enough illumination???" I think not!

> My current plan leaves  room for the multi-mount winch by Warn and Rovers
> North (which puts a Class III receiver up front).

Yes, I've seen that, looks really nice, but terrible approach angle. Still,
I like the benefit of using it front OR rear.

> Regarding your predicament, I have some questions.  First, is yours a 5 speed
> or auto? What optional equipment? Is it currently hard to get a Disco at the
> dealer?

As for my situation... Mine's black, automatic, leather, 7 seats, dual
sun roofs, dual a/c, rino bar, rear tail light guards (missing the left
side), tinted windows, pin stripes.

> The trouble with new cars is that they do all their depreciating in the first
> two years; especially the first.  Even if you paid more than sticker for the

  <<< Some "snippage" here. >>>

Unfortunately (for me) you're right about the depreciation. If I wasn't
so "bent" on getting the ultimate 4WD I'd have waited 2 years and got a
used one. Now, I'll have to wait another 2-3 years (from now) before I
can save enough to recover my loss, and get another. Also, by that time
there will have been additional depreciation. I really haven't had any
offers, asking $33K, but it looks like I'll have to go even lower. I
paid $38.5K. Dealer had one just like mine but without the rino bar or
rear a/c for $31.5K. This sold in the first 24 hours that it was there!
I understand that many dealers are still having a waiting list, but
mine was allocated around 30 extras for doing a major remodeling of the
facilities. That was a few months back. One day during that time, I counted 27
Disco's in stock, and last time I was there, (a few weeks back) they had
3-4 for sale, and 3-4 with "sold" stickers on. So... While my future
looks bright, (Phoenix area being "flooded" with Disco's that will one
day become for sale again) my present looks bleak. (Currently no problem
getting Disco's in Phoenix - ie: demand=low supply=high.)

Anyone want to take advantage of the laws of supply and demand?
Make an offer... I'm ready to listen.

Thanks,

Dave Brown - '94 Discovery - Phoenix Arizona USA

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: The Prince of Darkness
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 08:37:00 EST

It just occurred to me that LUCAS is an acronym to explain the function of 
the switch
"   Lighting     Usually     Causes   A     Short."
Any other versions out there?

Trevor Easton -  teaston@dqc2.dofasco.ca - Miss Golightly 1962 88" SS 
(sexist scum)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 09:46:08 PST
From: labranch@sybase.com (Jason LaBranch)
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr

> Wait a minute, You are defending Pierre's right to trash women but try to stop 
> Jory from expressing her anger and disgust with Pierre's total putdown of Women.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
> outraged.  It seems to me like a group of people being discriminated against 
> should have the right to defend themselves.

Uh... Teriann, I agree with you 100% but Jory is a guy not a gal. (smile)

Jason LaBranch

------------------------------

From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@wrdmail.er.usgs.gov>
Subject: Re: Are there any other hybrids in the states.
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:03:48 -0800 (PST)

>>>>> Andy Reischer writes:
> Hello...
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 15 lines)]
>	3- 4 speed auto shifts late when cold. and in new england it's cold
>all winter.

This is pretty neat stuff.

I don't have any answers, but I would sure like to hear more about how 
this was done, what other problems did you encounter and how were they 
resolved?  

Did you import the 110 parts from England?  If so, how much of a hassel 
was it?

Later,

Walter Swain      1967 IIA 109 Safari SW

------------------------------

Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:44 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>

Jory shoots his mouth off,

The sort of sexist, objectifying, testosterone laden shit in Pierre's
"drivel" is truly hurtful. To be perfectly honest, while I was reading it,
I kept trying to convince myself that it was some sort of parody, instead
of facing the fact that people in an ad hoc community to which I belong
could be such total fuckers.

*****************************************************************

	Well gee, how to put this. Get off your sactimonious, self-righteous horse
you FOUL MOUTHED little twirp. Your gutter blathering is far more offensive than
anything Pierre had to say. You notice that none of the Brits had any whining about the
posting, that's because they took it just as most of the rest of us did, TOTALLY HARMLESS British
humor. You need to watch some reruns of Benny Hill or even Monty Python, then get a life.
All you have to do is delete the bloody message if your so damned OFFENDED, or better yet,
unsubscribe. Why is, as ANDY WOODWARD stated in his post, everyone in America so thin skinned
anymore. "Fragile flowers" I belive he said. Always worried about OFFENDING anyone GOD FORBID.
"Basic Human rights", phuii, how EXACTLY were your or anyone elses "Basic Human rights"affected? 
I'm not sexist, never have been, but I CAN take things in the spirit in which they were intended.
In this case, I laughed till I couldn't see straight. Guess maybe that makes my wife and I both
misogynistic POND SCUM, since she thought it was hilarious too. So be it. But keep your pathetic,
petty, college bonehead with nothing better to do, politics off the list.
							VERY CORDIALLY YOURS
							Mike Fredette
							Portland, Oregon

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:15:11 +0800
From: William.Grouell@Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell)
Subject: Re: Hollywood Rovers

 
> Just saw Wolf last night.  Not only Michelle Pfieffer beautiful and drives a
> Range Rover, but she's a WEREWOLF!!  AhhhWooooooooooo  Ow  Ow
>  AhhhWoooooooooooo!!

 Please keep your sexist, rude remarks off of the Land Rover alias. And...
do you still have my Playboy Mag with the pictures of the 88 pick up with
the nice seat covers?

R, bg

FYI to the alias:
 
On the 16th April 1995 the UK. Standard Trunk Dialling ( STD ) codes within
the UK will change, so that Area codes beginning with a 0 will now begin
with 01 i.e. 0276 will become 01276, and thus 071 will become 0171 etc..

Example:-

Dialling within the UK.

	Before phone day dial 0276-XXXXXX for Camberley

	After phone day dial 01276-XXXXXX for Camberley

Dialling to the UK.

 	Before phone day dial +44-276-XXXXXX for Camberley

	After phone day dial +44-1276-XXXXXX for Camberley

Please also note that the following Five area codes will change completely :-

	Bristol.  	currently +44-272 will become +44-117-9.

	Leeds.    	currently +44-532 will become +44-113-2.

	Leicester. 	currently +44-533 will become +44-116-2.

	Nottingham. 	currently +44-602 will become +44-115-9.

	Sheffield. 	currently +44-742 will become +44-1142-.

 
All the codes listed above are now available, please get used to using them
NOW after 16th April 1995 the old codes will be DISCONECTED

------------------------------

From: kirkwood@strider.fm.intel.com (Clayton Kirkwood)
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Disco/Def90

On Mar 10,  8:42pm, jpappa01@InterServ.Com wrote:
> Subject: Re: 	Disco/Def90
> Four wheel drive system on both models is the same. Open diffs w/mechanical
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> 50/50 split. No traction control on either - only available on Range Rovers
> and then only on rear axle up to certain speed...

Sorry for some ignorance here...I've gotten the impression that open diffs
aren't very good when I hit a slippery spot (ice, mud, etc) because the wheel
on the slick spot takes all of the power and spins while the opposite wheel
on the axle gains no power. Presumably, the other axle is not affected when
the center diff is locked; both axles get 50% of the engine power guaranteed.
What happens if a front wheel and a back wheel slip? Do I go anywhere? I have
heard that because of the great suspension, the chances are less likely than
in other vehicles of slippage because the suspension keeps all of the wheels
on the ground. True?

> Minimum ground clearance is under differentials/ excellent ramp breakover
> angles in Land Rovers gives them class-leading ability to climb over
> locking center differential. Full time 4x4 open or locked hi and lo. Locked
obstacles
> without grounding - i.e. curved frame sections.

Yet... several other vehicles have greater ground clearance. I would assume
that greater ground clearance is always better???

> Hope this of some help to you two in your decision. Please email me with
> angles in Land Rovers gives them class-leading ability to climb over
any
> more specific requests.

Thanks very much for the help. I do have a couple of other questions. I
happened to be at another dealership this weekend (Dodge, for a van). The
salesman that we talked with indicated that he had also sold LRs in the past.
He said that they are as problematic as Jag.s and have very high maintenance
costs. Case in point, he said the brakes need to be replaced/overhauled every
30K miles or so, and that we would have to take the truck into the dealership
to get the work done, and it would cost about 1200 dollars. Said people who
buy Rovers aren't typically concerned with the maintenance costs because they
can afford such things. Typical income is about 250K dollars (out of my
league, sorry). Don't plan to use the vehicle as a daily commuter or the
costs will really go up; they just aren't meant to be used all the time. Etc,
etc etc. Although both my wife and I are very interested in such a vehicle,
we are not into the high maintenance time and cost. Needless to say, hearing
this we were "concerned". Is there any truth to this? It doesn't seem to jibe
with what I have heard in the group, nor with the typical use "outback". I
seriously doubt that somebody in outer whereever needs to take their Rover in
every 30K miles to get the brakes replaced with an expensive repair bill to
boot.

> Jim
> Land Rover Metro West
>-- End of excerpt from jpappa01@InterServ.Com
> for slippery stuff. Just means that front and rear axles coupled together
> 50/50 split. No traction control on either - only available on Range Rovers

-- 
Clayton R. Kirkwood, FM1-58, 916 356-5838

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Skirted thermostats
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 09:01:00 EST

Paul Safari, Queenston , Ontario (905) 262 4448 who advertises in LRO has 
skirted thermostats and will also explain to you why you need one.

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Pierres 4x4 (44D) Offroad experience
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 08:32:00 EST

Pierre writes"He wants me to train up as a guide and instructor for Peak 
Safaris". Shouldn't that be "Peek Safaris" ?

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Retractable seat belts
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 09:20:00 EST

Inertia reel belts from Volkwagen Rabbits provide a compact unit that will 
mount on the bulkhead and store tidily. Remember to run the belt through a 
loop that is level with or above your shoulder height. Otherwise if you 
really get to use the belt you may end up safe but with a broken shoulder. 
Don't forget also to fit a substantial reinforcing plate to the bulkhead or 
the reel unit wil just rip out on the first occasion it is heavily loaded. 
Always carry a clothes peg to disable the retract feature when off roading 
or you will find yourself winched tighter and tighter into the seat.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 09:19:38 -0600
From: Marcus Tooze <tooze@vinny.cecer.army.mil>
Subject: rovers for sale in canada

There was a post on yesterdays digest for 3 rovers for sale in Canada
somewhere. I deleted the digest before extracting the post,
could somebody repost it to me please!

Marcus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 08:24:27 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Another 109 seen is "Cliffhanger" movie.

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Another 109 seen is "Cliffhanger" movie.
In case it's not already on the "video list" Sylvester Stallone drives a
109 in the movie "Cliffhanger".

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

From: "David McKain" <MCKAIN@faculty.coe.wvu.edu>
Date:          Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:46:53 EDT
Subject:       Political discussion

> To:            jory@mit.edu (jory bell)
> Cc:            lro@team.net
> Subject:       Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr 
> Date:          Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:44 -0800
> From:          Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>

> Jory shoots his mouth off,
> The sort of sexist, objectifying, testosterone laden shit in Pierre's
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 27 lines)]
> 							Mike Fredette
> 							Portland, Oregon

I'm not too familiar with other newsgroup type mailing lists but is 
there somewhere else that this thread of political discourse could 
take place. I thought that this mailing list was for topics 
pertaining to Land Rovers. 

David McKain
1966 SIIa Petrol
mckain@faculty.coe.wvu.edu
(304) 599-0120
Morgantown, WV
USA                     

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:15:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Disco/Def90

>people who buy Rovers aren't typically concerned with the maintenance costs
because they can afford such things. Typical income is about 250K dollars.
 Don't plan to use the vehicle as a daily commuter or the costs will really
go up; they just aren't meant to be used all the time.

And you wonder why used car salesmen have the reputation they do.  

I am concerned with maintenance and I don't have a "typical" Rover income.
 And, I might add, I have never paid $1,200 to service anything on either of
my Rovers.  And, I might add again, I haven't had to have anything serviced
at a Rover Dealer at all.  These are very servicable vehicles.  I would
suggest buying the shop manual with the car, however, so that your mechanic
will have the documentation on hand.  Did your Dodge saleman also tell you
that Disco's topped the JD Powers sport ut list in customer satisfaction and
maintenance?  Probably not.

I've had my IIa for 25 years and put 1/3 million "daily" miles on it, and my
'89 RR has another 80,000 as well.

------------------------------

From: Sekerere@aol.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:28:22 -0500
Subject: 109s vs 88s

Any comments on the positive qualities of each of these vehicles? I am
looking into purchasing a 109, and I currently have an 88. Which one is the
better evhicle all around? What about diesel vs petrol engines? I would
appreciate any comments the net has. Thanks

Chris Whitehead 1966 SeiesIIA 88" Petrol "AntiChrist"

Sekerere@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 07:36:16 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: RE: Hella 550's, 1000's, 2000's...

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: RE: Hella 550's, 1000's, 2000's...

Henry,

Congratulations on your lights! Very illuminating story... (Sorry,
couldn't resist.) As for resolving the light issue locally, I DO
understand. If I were to have nothing, and look for lights I'd probably
do the same. The mounting or your fogs sounds neat! Probably works
pretty well, too. With a slight angle it's probably a good thing anyway,
to see signs, or animals/people that may be straying into your path.
Sounds like a very clean mount, too.

I've never seen the 3000's, at least I don't think I have... It's a
shame we can't have a "flame-off" light comparison... ;-) Could be fun!
So, you have 5 lights then? Cool! Now, a roof rack with 3 on each
corner, outer 2 angled about the same as your fogs, and VOILLA! Here
comes the sun!

Again, congrat's.

P.S. Yes, I do still have my Disco. I'm currently asking $33K, which
kind of makes me sad, to see that it's depreciated that much, this soon.
Now, 14K miles, again, no calls on her this last week... Certainly
people aren't lining up to buy her. I'll try the Sunday paper again,
then if nothing... another price reduction. :-( (Currently in the auto
trader magazine.) Wish me luck! Let me know if you think I'm still
asking too much. There could definitely be some sentimental value that
I'm trying to place a price to. Doggone it though... it IS the best 4X4
for the $.

Dave Brown - '94 Discovery - Phoenix AZ.

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead
*** Reply to note of 03/11/95 09:13
=========================================================================
   Sat, 11 Mar 95 09:13:22 MST
          id AA21259; Sat, 11 Mar 1995 08:57:02 -0700
 #7190) id <01HO08AQXSF48XDW7O@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>; Sat,
 11 Mar 1995 10:13:27 CST
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 10:13:27 -0600 (CST)
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
From: wilsonhb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Henry B. Wilson)
Subject: RE: Hella 550's, 1000's, 2000's...
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
X-Sender: wilsonhb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

The light saga continues...
I wanted to give you some follow up.  What I ended up doing was getting the
best I could locally, which seemed to be the 6" stainless KC sealed beam
(150watt) units ($40-$50 each without wiring harness), three of which will
fit across the middle section of the brush bar (after drilling another
hole).  I also got some of the black plastic KC covers and used a solvent to
remove the big white KC letters.  These are extremely bright lights with a
spot pattern meant to throw light a long distance.  It also looks pretty
cool with three of them up front, and the stainless steel doesn't clash with
the black brush bar like I thought it might.  Actually blends with the
headlights and silver LR script on the hood.
I also bought some Hella 550FF yellow fogs and mounted them below the
headlights, RR style (by drilling two holes at the top edge of the bumper
and mounting the light upside down (rotating the bezel of course).  If you
look at your bumper,
(Do you still have your Disco?)
you'll notice that fogs mounted flat against the bumper at this point will
aim slightly away from straight ahead, maybe 15-20 degrees.  Although not
optimal, this works fine for a fog light pattern, which is wide anyway, and
gives me a little "corner" illumination (a la Lincoln Town Car :-]).

So all my lights are set up, look great, and the three KCs peel paint off of
anything in front of them (the idle actually drops when they go on!)

However, I have since noted that Hella offers a Rallye 3000 light--top of
the line.  They cost about $100 each and I have been curious.  Maybe for the
eventual roof rack.

Have you ever compared your Hella 2000s to someone whose truck had the same
KCs as mine?  I am curious how much difference there is.  Whose truck sees
better, KC or Hella equipped?

Henry B. Wilson, wilsonhb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu or henben@aol.com
'59 Austin Healey 100-6
'94 LR Discovery 5-speed

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:00:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr

On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, jory bell wrote:

> much rush limbaugh (ultra-rightwing talk radio "personality" in the US).

	Pinhead who thankfully doesn't come north...

> You can't have it both ways. Either there is a marketplace of ideas, in
> which case my analysis of Pierre et al is fair game. Or,there is strict
> control of content of some sort (moderation, posting guidelines, capricious
> mob rule, etc).

	I prefer the former with the occassional seasonal discussion on 
	relative merits of various vehicles to lighten the winter 
	blues...  :-)
 
> I am in favor of allowing people to post freely (although I would tend to
> prefer that the land rover list stick to land rover related posts... if
> only because I do not particularly enjoy the kind of ugliness this current
> thread has exposed).

	This little spat has degenerated faster than if Mike said "Series"
	in a message, or I said "D90" in a message.  IMHO, I enjoyed Pierre's
	little article & found it amusing.  Others, have found it to be 
	offensive.  Fine, I really don't care either way, nor have any problem
	with people expressing their opinions.  Just as I could have used
	the delete key to get rid of Pierre's article if I had not liked it,
	I could use the delete key to get rid of some of this nonesense.
	Not enough people are using the delete key & IMHO being entirely
	to thin skinned about this.  You can't expect opinions and culture
	to be uniform around the world & you can't expect to have one
	view point stiffle others from afar.  What's the old saying?  
	"Wear mirror shades and carry a nerf bat"?  Good advice for the
	computer networks & saves the righteous from believing that they
	are suddenly being oppressed and thus acting like the peasant from 
	Monty Python's grail movie...

	Oh well, off to the workers collective to discuss greenland halibut.
	Spanish seem to be catching little wee ones to cut down shrubbery
	with & since the Great White North put a stop to this, they seem
	to be feeling very oppressed and want to try and do nasty things
	to us.  

	Rgds,

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Disco/Def90 
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:16:51 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

It was written by someone:

> >people who buy Rovers aren't typically concerned with the maintenance costs
> because they can afford such things. Typical income is about 250K dollars.
>  Don't plan to use the vehicle as a daily commuter or the costs will really
> go up; they just aren't meant to be used all the time.

	My Rover came to me in a non functional state, had been dormant for
3 years and had not been properly mainatined.   I have no idea how many
miles it had on it.  The speedo cable was broken and the odometer read 16,000
miles.  I suspect (based on wear of the vehicle) that it was near 116,000 miles
but I could have been 216,000miles.  That was 1990.  Since then
I've put 45,000 miles on it, including 6 cross country trips.  It is a daily
driver and I'm averaging 1500 miles a month on it.  I admit that it really
needed a ground up restoration, and I seemed to have done that piece by
piece.  The only major unknown is the transmission.  Now it is running well.
I don't baby it and use it off road whenever possible.
 
Costs (US dollars):
$1500 Purchace price  (Dad bought from a friend)
$2000 rebuilt short block (The old one was really shot)
$1500 had British Pacific mechanic cut off an PO's rear spring system that
        used Suburban springs, when they broke and welded & replaced with stock.
$750 Overdrive
$1500 8000# winch and roof rack
$2750 of parts, Oil, Wd-40, LRO magazines, registration, Webber carb for
      better gas mileage, spares, CB, etc.

Which works out to $500 a year in maintenance and stuff and hopefully this
cost will start dropping as most of the Rover is in good shape.  Note that
Two of the expensive parts were inherited faults and I have kitted out
the way I want it.  There is more that I can spend money on, but that will
come in time. 

Total cost: $10k  A lot less than most cars.  And how many people get a new
car every 5 years?  

(The only reason that I know the above numbers is that I entered it into
a spreadsheet last weekend and know what the total was and could work 
back from there.  In a few weeks I hope to have it more fine tuned. (I'm
missing a few records; then I'll add the bells and whitles.)

As for salary, I make less than what Discoveries sell for.  Maybe the
typical person who buys a _new_ Range Rover makes more than 100k a year.
but not most Series owners, or even older Rangie owners, and maybe some 
new Disco owners.

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications International Corporation
 China Lake Naval Air Warfare Center
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:35:50 GMT -0600
Subject:       censorship

I, too, thought that Pierre's piece on off-road instruction was 
offensive. However, I will, with discomfort, defend his right to post it. I'd 
appreciate his posting it elsewhere on the Net, in a more suitable 
place, but I guess that's his choice. I would rather this forum stick to 
Land Rover topics. On the other hand this may be a moot point if 
Senate Bill S.314 passes. There's a companion piece in the House 
also. Not sure how this would affect postings from the UK, but I'm 
sure many  of us in the US will be shut off from Net access.
I debated for a couple of days on whether to dignify the 
aforementioned piece with a reply, but it seemed timely somehow.
I don't like telling someone "if you don't like it, leave". Jory has 
as much right to post complaints about the subject as Pierre 
does to post it. 

On to a MUCH more fun topic:
Land Rover screen savers, 
As much as I hate to recommend them, Microsoft has a screen saver 
that displays still graphics. It alternates various sceens and you 
can import your own graphics into it. I downloaded a number of L/R 
pics from the web (except I haven't found any good Lightweights, which 
I drive)  and now have about 20 alternating pictures of L/R's 
when I'm not working, which I should start doing now. Working that 
is. The screen saver is called Microsoft Screens, about $20. I'm sure 
someone else makes one too.

Tom Rowe
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Center for Dairy Research
1605 Linden Dr., Madison, WI 53706
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578
Home:608-243-8660
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu

------------------------------

From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@wrdmail.er.usgs.gov>
Subject: Re: 109s vs 88s
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:20:29 -0800 (PST)

>>>>> Sekerere@aol.com writes:
> Any comments on the positive qualities of each of these vehicles? I am
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> better evhicle all around? What about diesel vs petrol engines? I would
> appreciate any comments the net has. Thanks
What are you going to do with this vehicle?  "Better" depends on better 
for what?

Walter Swain     

1967 109 Series IIA Safari SW -- Good for all kinds of things

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 19:15:30 -0500
From: ac443@osfn.rhilinet.gov (John Karlsson)
Subject: Sighting

I got a chance to look at the April '95 issue of Shutterbug today,
and I was surprised to see that the cover story is a road test of
the Disco.  Their "first real road test" and I suppose a fine
choice in the opinion of many here.

------------------------------

From: Steve Methley <sgm@hplb.hpl.hp.com>
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 14:31:23 GMT

Mike to Jory:

  Who said anything about a rough (venue?).Dont patronise.He's actually
  portraying them as they are.If *they* arent ashamed of it why should
  you be?Tell you one thing,mate,if they read it they'd probably bust
  a gut laughing as well.North Country people may be tough,but they are
  humorous,honest,and warm hearted folk,and can take a joke against 
  themselves better than most.
  cheers
  Mike Rooth

Quite right, Mike.  Pierre came from Barnsley, and guess what Jory -
that's where I come from.  Those girls are probably telling the same
story about their off road adventure.  Believe me.

It's humour Jory, even if you don't recognise it.  Now do as the nice
man says and b*gger off!   (Yes, that's Northern humour too, so don't
have a fit).  (Sorry to those people who suffer fits, sorry to ...etc.)

Lightweights:
Someone posted about buying one; I had one for a while and did much
work and off roading with it.  Please feel free to mail me directly.
--
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Best Regards,
Steve.

Dr Steve Methley               *****     *****
HP Labs, Filton Road,          ***  /_  __ ***   email:   sgm@hplb.hpl.hp.com
Bristol, BS12 6QZ, UK          **  / / /_/  **   or       sgm@hpl.hp.co.uk
direct line: +44 117 922 8751  ***    /    ***   fax:     +44 117 922 8924
switchboard: +44 117 979 9910  *****     *****   or                   8920

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 95 20:22:22 EST
From: "Stefan R. Jacob" <100043.2400@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re:  An Introduction to Offroad Instruction

>I note with interest that all the high pitched whining about this very funny 
>bit of prose has come from >>>>>Yanks<<<<<

Well... their forefathers (and -mothers) did after all leave this troublesome
continent fleeing from oppression and discrimination, so maybe that accounts
for them being a bit more sensitive than the average ruddy European...
I mean, look at the Land Rover - could such a thing possibly have been
devised by sensitive people??

------------------------------

Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:44 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@sybase.com>

Jory shoots his mouth off,

The sort of sexist, objectifying, testosterone laden shit in Pierre's
"drivel" is truly hurtful. To be perfectly honest, while I was reading it,
I kept trying to convince myself that it was some sort of parody, instead
of facing the fact that people in an ad hoc community to which I belong
could be such total fuckers.

*****************************************************************

	Well gee, how to put this. Get off your sactimonious, self-righteous horse
you FOUL MOUTHED little twirp. Your gutter blathering is far more offensive than
anything Pierre had to say. You notice that none of the Brits had any whining about the
posting, that's because they took it just as most of the rest of us did, TOTALLY HARMLESS British
humor. You need to watch some reruns of Benny Hill or even Monty Python, then get a life.
All you have to do is delete the bloody message if your so damned OFFENDED, or better yet,
unsubscribe. Why is, as ANDY WOODWARD stated in his post, everyone in America so thin skinned
anymore. "Fragile flowers" I belive he said. Always worried about OFFENDING anyone GOD FORBID.
"Basic Human rights", phuii, how EXACTLY were your or anyone elses "Basic Human rights"affected? 
I'm not sexist, never have been, but I CAN take things in the spirit in which they were intended.
In this case, I laughed till I couldn't see straight. Guess maybe that makes my wife and I both
misogynistic POND SCUM, since she thought it was hilarious too. So be it. But keep your pathetic,
petty, college bonehead with nothing better to do, politics off the list.
							VERY CORDIALLY YOURS
							Mike Fredette
							Portland, Oregon

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 21:02:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Disco discovered!

Tom Proctor asks...

> BTW, what exactly is a Forward Control? That sound like something I might
> like to check into.

It's a *big* mother! There's a few differant varieties, but probably the
most sought after is the military 101. Foward Control simply means the cab
and controls are up front... ahead of the engine. And mostly above the
engine! The front of the truck is almost vertical and *very* imposing. The
101 is (I think) V-8 powered, lots of ground clearance and pretty much
un-stoppable off road.

It probably won't fit in your average garage... so if you really want one,
build a bigger garage!

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern) R.I.P.      
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:44 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@sybase.com>

Jory shoots his mouth off,

The sort of sexist, objectifying, testosterone laden shit in Pierre's
"drivel" is truly hurtful. To be perfectly honest, while I was reading it,
I kept trying to convince myself that it was some sort of parody, instead
of facing the fact that people in an ad hoc community to which I belong
could be such total fuckers.

*****************************************************************

	Well gee, how to put this. Get off your sactimonious, self-righteous horse
you FOUL MOUTHED little twirp. Your gutter blathering is far more offensive than
anything Pierre had to say. You notice that none of the Brits had any whining about the
posting, that's because they took it just as most of the rest of us did, TOTALLY HARMLESS British
humor. You need to watch some reruns of Benny Hill or even Monty Python, then get a life.
All you have to do is delete the bloody message if your so damned OFFENDED, or better yet,
unsubscribe. Why is, as ANDY WOODWARD stated in his post, everyone in America so thin skinned
anymore. "Fragile flowers" I belive he said. Always worried about OFFENDING anyone GOD FORBID.
"Basic Human rights", phuii, how EXACTLY were your or anyone elses "Basic Human rights"affected? 
I'm not sexist, never have been, but I CAN take things in the spirit in which they were intended.
In this case, I laughed till I couldn't see straight. Guess maybe that makes my wife and I both
misogynistic POND SCUM, since she thought it was hilarious too. So be it. But keep your pathetic,
petty, college bonehead with nothing better to do, politics off the list.
							VERY CORDIALLY YOURS
							Mike Fredette
							Portland, Oregon

------------------------------

Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:44 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@sybase.com>

Jory shoots his mouth off,

The sort of sexist, objectifying, testosterone laden shit in Pierre's
"drivel" is truly hurtful. To be perfectly honest, while I was reading it,
I kept trying to convince myself that it was some sort of parody, instead
of facing the fact that people in an ad hoc community to which I belong
could be such total fuckers.

*****************************************************************

	Well gee, how to put this. Get off your sactimonious, self-righteous horse
you FOUL MOUTHED little twirp. Your gutter blathering is far more offensive than
anything Pierre had to say. You notice that none of the Brits had any whining about the
posting, that's because they took it just as most of the rest of us did, TOTALLY HARMLESS British
humor. You need to watch some reruns of Benny Hill or even Monty Python, then get a life.
All you have to do is delete the bloody message if your so damned OFFENDED, or better yet,
unsubscribe. Why is, as ANDY WOODWARD stated in his post, everyone in America so thin skinned
anymore. "Fragile flowers" I belive he said. Always worried about OFFENDING anyone GOD FORBID.
"Basic Human rights", phuii, how EXACTLY were your or anyone elses "Basic Human rights"affected? 
I'm not sexist, never have been, but I CAN take things in the spirit in which they were intended.
In this case, I laughed till I couldn't see straight. Guess maybe that makes my wife and I both
misogynistic POND SCUM, since she thought it was hilarious too. So be it. But keep your pathetic,
petty, college bonehead with nothing better to do, politics off the list.
							VERY CORDIALLY YOURS
							Mike Fredette
							Portland, Oregon

------------------------------

Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:44 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@sybase.com>

Jory shoots his mouth off,

The sort of sexist, objectifying, testosterone laden shit in Pierre's
"drivel" is truly hurtful. To be perfectly honest, while I was reading it,
I kept trying to convince myself that it was some sort of parody, instead
of facing the fact that people in an ad hoc community to which I belong
could be such total fuckers.

*****************************************************************

	Well gee, how to put this. Get off your sactimonious, self-righteous horse
you FOUL MOUTHED little twirp. Your gutter blathering is far more offensive than
anything Pierre had to say. You notice that none of the Brits had any whining about the
posting, that's because they took it just as most of the rest of us did, TOTALLY HARMLESS British
humor. You need to watch some reruns of Benny Hill or even Monty Python, then get a life.
All you have to do is delete the bloody message if your so damned OFFENDED, or better yet,
unsubscribe. Why is, as ANDY WOODWARD stated in his post, everyone in America so thin skinned
anymore. "Fragile flowers" I belive he said. Always worried about OFFENDING anyone GOD FORBID.
"Basic Human rights", phuii, how EXACTLY were your or anyone elses "Basic Human rights"affected? 
I'm not sexist, never have been, but I CAN take things in the spirit in which they were intended.
In this case, I laughed till I couldn't see straight. Guess maybe that makes my wife and I both
misogynistic POND SCUM, since she thought it was hilarious too. So be it. But keep your pathetic,
petty, college bonehead with nothing better to do, politics off the list.
							VERY CORDIALLY YOURS
							Mike Fredette
							Portland, Oregon

------------------------------

Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr 
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:10:44 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@sybase.com>

Jory shoots his mouth off,

The sort of sexist, objectifying, testosterone laden shit in Pierre's
"drivel" is truly hurtful. To be perfectly honest, while I was reading it,
I kept trying to convince myself that it was some sort of parody, instead
of facing the fact that people in an ad hoc community to which I belong
could be such total fuckers.

*****************************************************************

	Well gee, how to put this. Get off your sactimonious, self-righteous horse
you FOUL MOUTHED little twirp. Your gutter blathering is far more offensive than
anything Pierre had to say. You notice that none of the Brits had any whining about the
posting, that's because they took it just as most of the rest of us did, TOTALLY HARMLESS British
humor. You need to watch some reruns of Benny Hill or even Monty Python, then get a life.
All you have to do is delete the bloody message if your so damned OFFENDED, or better yet,
unsubscribe. Why is, as ANDY WOODWARD stated in his post, everyone in America so thin skinned
anymore. "Fragile flowers" I belive he said. Always worried about OFFENDING anyone GOD FORBID.
"Basic Human rights", phuii, how EXACTLY were your or anyone elses "Basic Human rights"affected? 
I'm not sexist, never have been, but I CAN take things in the spirit in which they were intended.
In this case, I laughed till I couldn't see straight. Guess maybe that makes my wife and I both
misogynistic POND SCUM, since she thought it was hilarious too. So be it. But keep your pathetic,
petty, college bonehead with nothing better to do, politics off the list.
							VERY CORDIALLY YOURS
							Mike Fredette
							Portland, Oregon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 17:42:28 PST
From: labranch@sybase.com (Jason LaBranch)
Subject: My Maiden Voyage

Hey folks,

Here is a story about my first voyage in my new Land Rover:

I got my rebuilt gearbox back from Scotty on Friday March 3rd.  The
trick was that I had to install it completely over the weekend because
of the trip I had to take, and since I sold my International I had no
other vehicle to use for the trip.

About two months ago I signed up to represent Sybase in a ski team for
the Annual Alpine Meadows Corporate Ski Challenge.  The dates were March
9th through March 12th.  Those dates turned out to be very challenging
as far as skiing is concerned.

I left Thursday morning at 8am to head for Lake Tahoe.  I had barely just
finished getting the Rover together (Actually everything was not finished;
read on).  The rain was comming down hard.  All the traffic lights on the
Emeryville border were out.  All my stuff was in the back.  This vehicle
had never, driven by me, been on the freeway.  Driving was still akward --
you know the double clutch stuff, the stiff blinker control, and the brakes
that have to be pumped.

I got to the freeway entrance, wind blowing hard, rain side slanting
everywhere, and had to stop to let a vehicle go by.  I engaged first gear,
double clutched to second, followed by a quick engagement of third,
accelerated a bit, then finally engaged fourth, and after a few moments
I was at freeway speed.  I wiped the sweat off my brow.  "Boy this is 
noisy," I thought to myself.  With all my anticipation the vehicle was
bouncing all over the road (I do have large tires).

A half hour passed and I realized my nuckles where white with stress.  I
took a deep breath and loosened my grip.  The vehicle smoothed out.  The
speedometer does not work so I picked a tone for the engine and kept it
at that rpm.  Looking about I noticed I was slowly passing some vehicles.
"Hmmm, I wonder how fast I'm going," went through my head.

Exept for the the ocasional torential rains, and the strong wind gusts, every
thing went very well untill, that is, I got to the top of Donner Summit.

At Donner Summit I pulled in to the rest stop to go the bathroom.  I noticed
that the heater duct assembly had pulled away from the dash and very little
air was getting to the defrosters.  I would fix that when I got back.  The
bathroom was uneventfull (smile).  When I got back I started the engine to
find it was running very rough.  I saw black smoke comming out of the tail
pipe.  Damn, the carb was acting up, the mixture was too rich.  I pulled out
my screw driver and attempted to readjust the carb.  By this time a regular
blizzard had started up.  The snow was very wet and fast.  I was getting
drenched.  My boots and socks were soaked.  My hands and sleaves were getting
covered in oil and gas.  I compromised at a setting that was hardly suitable.
I got in the vehicle and spent about fifteen minutes trying to get the duct
attached back to the dash while shivering from the wet and cold.  I started
it up and continued.

Only a few miles away I found the exit off 80 to Lake Tahoe and highway 89.
It was all uphill.  As I proceeded the engine slowed and slowed.  I had to
move out of fourth and into third.  A line of cars began to line up behind
me and there were no passing lanes.  Snow and rain was everywhere.  Again
the engine slowed and slowed.  I shifted from third to second.  Oh no, it
was still having a hard time.  After about ten miles I got to the entrance
road to Alpine Meadows, but the Rover would go no more.  I pulled over to
let it rest.  Black smoke was comming out of the tail pipe.  I let it idle
for a while which gave it a little strength.  I knew it was getting too 
rich a mixture but when I tried to lean it out it would die.  Again I
compromised at a setting.  By this time it was pouring rain -- that's right
rain, not snow.  I was wet as hell.  It was cold.  It was then that I
remembered that I had NO anti-freeze in the radiator!  I had to get under
the vehicle and open the radiator drain, close it back up, pour a gallon of
anti-freeze in, then go search for some water to top it off.  Once that was
done, I went to get a sandwich at a deli on the corner.

When I got back to the Rover it started right up and I proceeded to the
ski-slope.  It was running ok but still lacked most of it's power.  As
I got to the parking lot the engine started to sound very loud.  I pulled
off to the side and looked at the exhaust pipe.  Sure enough the muffler
had separated from the exhaust pipe and the last bolt was just hanging on.
Since it was hot I decided to get out of the way and park so it could cool
down and I could re-tighten the bolt.  When I got to the parking place I
looked under the vehicle to find the last bolt was now gone.  Ahhh.  So,
from the inside I lifted the middle seat for access to the exhaust pipe.
Ahah!  On the transmission were two mildly unimportant bolts.  I bolted
the exhaust back together and went to the lodge to find my teamates.  
None was there.  I hung out for a while near the fire to warm up then
proceeded back to the Rover so I could go into Tahoe City where we had
rented a condo.

I drove very slowly to the condo and after some trouble found it.  I parked
the Rover and went in to get dry.  I left it sitting there the whole week-
end and got rides from others.

Sunday morning came.  There was fresh powder everywhere and the morning sun
was shinning bright.  I had a full stomach and was very dry and warm.  I 
packed the Rover and started it up.  Shoot, it was too rich again.  I took
the bonet off and attempted to readjust the carb.  This time I tuned in and
the engine began to purr.

The whole trip home was sunny and uneventful -- I sang to myself, over the
roar of the engine.

See you,
Jason LaBranch

------------------------------

Subject: Re: censorship 
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:44:22 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

This is way off topic,  if you feel you must reply send me email...

Tom Rowe wrote:
 
> On the other hand this may be a moot point if 
> Senate Bill S.314 passes. There's a companion piece in the House 
> also. Not sure how this would affect postings from the UK, but I'm 
> sure many  of us in the US will be shut off from Net access.

	For the foreigners S.314 is is try to ban the use of sexually
offensive  and other things from the net. I'll grant that you could moniter and 
detect stuff on Usenet and it is being done (the Secret Service are 
such wonderful people).  But to moniter all the traffic?  To moniter private
email?  Do you know how much money that would take?  What are they going to 
do, search everything for certain words or phrases?  It's easy to add a
random string of words to a random part of a file.  Right now my Usenet
feed averages 107 megabytes a day.  There is a lot more than that in email,
ftp, web and other access.  It will not be cheap to set up N places to 
look at every tcp/ip packet that come by.  And even if they do write a 
really good program to separate the chaff words from real smut, its real easy
to use PGP or some other encryption method.  Is the FBI going to try and
inflitrate every group to gets that mailling list's pgp passphrase.  
	If the United States get's that paranoid, its lost that which the
Founding Fathers wanted it to be.
	If 314 passes and become law, the ACLU would contest it and keep it
blocked for years.  Note how sucessful California's prop 187 was.

<rant off.  Now back to our regular Land Rover discussion.>

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88
 These opinions are mine and noone else's

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 17:56:14 PST
From: Brad Krohn <Brad_Krohn@ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Sighting ... believe it or not

     
     Yes, in the alleged climax of "The Brady Bunch Movie," a Rover can be 
     seen briefly on the right side of the screen as the semi with Ann B. 
     Davis at the wheel crests a rise in the street.
     
     So brief it's tough to tell anything - but might've been a 109.
     
     Ah, the places they turn up!
     
     Brad_Krohn@ccm.hf.intel.com
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
     "You are protected by the enormity of your own stupidity ... for a 
     time."             (from Alfred Hitchcock's "Notorious")

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 95 21:50:42 EST
From: "R. Pierce Reid, OH" <70004.4011@compuserve.com>
Subject: BRLRC Sadists?

David Wrote:

<< Now I cant wait until May for the BRLRC outing in WV. I've heard that 
<< the organizers are real sadists when they pick out trails for the 
<< expidition.

They are.  But David and Cheryl put together top-notch outings.  Not to mention
that the BRLRC HQ is in a beer distributers warehouse.  Have I died and gone to
heaven?

I'll see you there in May... I may bring a friend's Army Deuce-and-a-Half 6x6
this time, though... just to see how it'll do.

Cheers, 

R.P. Reid 

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 95 22:01:36 EST
From: "R. Pierce Reid, OH" <70004.4011@compuserve.com>
Subject: That does it -- I am not sensitive!

Andy Wrote:

>> <Sensitive little flowers, Yanks..

Right-o... that's the last straw.  I have never jumped into the middle of a
flame-fest... but calling me sensitive was the last straw!

Hell, if I were sensitive, I'd be sitting down to a quiche right now, looking
for an Alan Alda Movie on Lifetime Network and no doubt be driving a
teal-colored Cavalier instead of a Land Rover 88.  

Instead, I'm enjoying a cigar and port after my veal dinner and I'm watching
another of those great John Wayne war movies where sensitive Yanks bail Europe
out for the second time.  (If we were so sensitive, you'd all be goose-stepping
down to the Biergarten for a Becks right about now.)  

Hell, I play with assault weapons.  I think the welfare system ought to be based
on the premise that noone out there is too poor to clean up their yard.  I want
to invade small, helpless countries because it makes for good TV news coverage
(as long as the soldiers are wearing spiffy uniforms).  I make fun of those less
fortunate than me (Sally Struthers, for example). And when I go overseas, I know
for a fact that everyone in the world speaks English, they just won't talk back
to me unless I talk really loud at them.  And when I am in Europe, I never pay
my hotel and meal bills, I figure it's just part of their war debt.  

I buy products only if they've been tested on baby bunnies (anvils, for example)
I hope the Chinese discover that herbal medicine made out of spotted owls is
good for keeping the Yang up.  I think that Japanese can eat all the whales they
want -- I think they taste like c**p.  Pave the rainforests, melt down the
ice-caps and serve asbestos in school lunches, I say.  James Watt for President!

Banish Alan Alda from the planet and run nothing but re-runs of Miami-vice on
network TV.  Outlaw Donahue and make Pierce Brosnan change his name back to Elmo
Schmertz or whatever the heck it was.

As for the driving lesson story, I was ROFL!  It takes a lot to get me riled --
Just don't call me sensitive!

R. P. Reid

The opinions above are not even my own -- well, I do like cigars and port.. and
Alan Alda *is* kind of annoying.. and I do drive a Land Rover... should I duck
now?)  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 21:06:25 -0600 (CST)
From: David John Place <umplace@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: Re: 109s vs 88s

I have owned both and although I liked the 109 for carrying the family 
and for the better ride, I still come back to 7 other 88 models because 
in the bush I found it more nimble.  For camping the 109 is superior 
since the 88 is just about wrong in every direction for sleeping inside.  
I sleep on the safari top I have built.  With a tail gate however you can 
stretch out.  Other than the longer wheel base being less choppy on the 
highway, both are lots of fun.  Dave VE4PN

------------------------------

Date: 14 Mar 95 22:14:57 EST
From: "R. Pierce Reid, OH" <70004.4011@compuserve.com>
Subject: Forgiveness Requested

I am writing for forgiveness for destroying a Land Rover 

Oh, it still runs and drives and all that.  What I am talking about here is
washing it.

You see, it was a gorgeous March day, I had just washed my other car and, well,
I hosing out some crud under the wheel wells and was getting the mud off the
frame -- I mean that's ok, right?  You can't get in trouble just hosing off the
frame?

Well before I knew it, I had embarked on the path of no return.  Without
thinking about the consequences, I soaped the sucker down and was applying wax!
I even put that tire foam on the tires before I regained my senses... woe is me!

I am really concerned about the environmental damage here!  What about all the
undiscovered and undoumented species living it?  What if some new kind of
wonder-drug could have been synthesized from that unidentifiable mold-patch I
unthinkingly scrubbed off the winch?  It'll take me years to build up that 4wd,
rolling eco-system up again! 

I know an act like this makes my unworthy of Rover ownership... But can I redeem
myself?  Should I start flagellating myself by test-driving Jeep Wranglers or is
there some kind of pre-determined penance?  You know a dozen Hail Lucases while
counting off the links of a timing chain or something like that?

Should we start a support group for people thinking about washing their Series
Rovers?

R. P. Reid

------------------------------

From: FHYap@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 00:01:23 -0500
Subject: Intro to Off-Road

I enjoy reading the LRO digest.  Some discussions are informative, some a=
re
entertaining ... and some I don=92t agree with.  However, except for the =
mail
on =93Intro to Off-Road,=94 none have been offensive.

I see and read of so many offensive matters that I often find it is easie=
r to
ignore them.  Shame on me.

Jory and TeriAnn, thank you for speaking up.

------------------------------

From: taylors@hubcap.clemson.edu (C. Taylor Sutherland III)
Subject: Taylor and Arnold...I'll be back.
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 95 00:59:23 

-- 
     One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
     One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
     In the Land of Mordor, where the Shadows lie. 
<->                  C. Taylor Sutherland, III               <->
<->      IRC Nick:  NIV       <-> taylors@hubcap.clemson.edu <->

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Re:  Ersatz winches
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:22:17 UNDEFINED

So. What is the group wisdom in bush winches.

I only know 2 methods.

1: Use a loop of rope between you and the anchor. Cut a spar a few feet long, 
place it vertically between the 2 sides of the loop, and twist the loop with 
it. The more the loop twist, the shorter it gets. You can get some SEROIIUS 
pull with htis, but DONT LET GO OF THE SPAR............

2. Use a single length of rope, with a bit of slack to form a small vertical 
loop at some point on it. Insert the spar, and wind it round and round 
horizontally. As the loop twists adn grows into a hopeless mess of knot, it 
pulls the vehicle out. You can wedge the spar against the rope for a rest (but 
be VERY careful in case it unilaterally decides to jump free.....)

So. Who knows others?

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Re: An Introduction to Offroad Instr
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 08:40:31 UNDEFINED

/Mike there is more than one kind of scum,  Perhaps you like to think pond 
/scum fits you best, but cesspool scum comes to mind when I think of pierre's 
/posting and of those who have expressed support for his sexest and classist 
/opperssion.
/
/Now, be nice and learn some tolernece and sensitivity to other people not in 
/your sexual-social-economic group.

I have always found humour comes from that special form of rough and real 
tolerance formed from much experience adn hardship. And that those with no 
sense of humour are usually those who have been emotionally cossettted all 
their lives, adn never actually had to come to terms with such nasty things as 
Other People's View Of The World.

PC is the most  intolerant philosophy I have seen in supposedly free 
countries, seeking to unilaterally protect folk, regardless whether they want 
or need it, from a (usually imagined) threat by repression adn indtimidation 
of the majority.

I despise PC, but despite that I get on fine with bimbos, coons, stumpies, 
queers (OK, maybe not queers.....) etc.etc. Cos they can tell when the barbs 
are covered with sugar or poison. And they fight like with like instead 
blowing all the diodes down their left side........

There has recently been a thread on uk.humour about how Americans cant 
understand humour unless it has smileys plastered about all over. Many folk on 
here could do with reading it. (Yes, I *do* get on well with most of the Yanks 
I have met - just not the ones who take themselves SOOO seriously)

/TeriAnn Wakeman        Large format photographers look at the world
/twakeman@apple.com     upside down and backwards     

Sorry, TeriAnn. I always look forward to your postings for their superbly 
useful technical content based on hard practical knowledge, but this time, 
your sig says it all.                        
                                      

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Photos & text Copyright 1990-2011
	Bill Caloccia, All rights reserved. 

Digest Messages Copyright 1990-2011 by the original poster or/and
	Bill Caloccia,
	All rights reserved.