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From: "T.F. Mills" <tomills@du.edu>
Subject: Re: More questions than anwers
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 00:53:38 -0700 (MST)

Doug Sackinger asks:

< companies/some industry org. as to the actual numbers of Series LRs 
< still being operated as compared with numbers imported ? Geographical 
< distribution  by state/province in North America ? ( Sorry but 
< geography is my bread and butter, I couldn't help but ask)

The info is available from state mv depts., but you have to pay a bundle 
for the service.  I too am curious, btu not curious enough to pay.

My son counted about 80 Series LRs in Colorado during 1994.  (He has the 
exact count, but I don;t know where.)  I know of about 20 that he missed.

Twenty yrs ago, I think LR claimed 84% of all their vehicles were still 
on the road.  I think the most recent claim is 67%.  No idea how they 
come up with these figures, but I'm sure Dixon can compute how many 
vehicles that comes to!

< Oh yes, is there a LR screen saver?  I had a colleague download some 
< gifs/jpegs - good for wallpaper and slide shows.  Is there anything 
< like a SIIa rovering across terrain, wheels turning, dripping fluids 
< etc.....?

If you have Windows, you can draw your own in Paintbrush and load it as 
wallpaper.  My son (clever guy!) has a whole collection that we rotate on 
the screen.

T. F. Mills                                              tomills@du.edu
University of Denver Library  2150 E. Evans Ave.  Denver  CO 80208  USA
      http://mercury.cair.du.edu/~tomills (under construction)

------------------------------

From: Mr Ian Stuart <IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:33:38 +0000
Subject: Re: More questions than anwers

> Is it possible to travel to UK, buy a new US - spec D90 there and 
get No.

Only the US has the D90 (with bikini-top, roll-bar & V8), we just get 
the 90 defender (with tdi300)

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
WWW sites: Work -- <http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/>      
           Play -- <http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/>
#======================================================================#
To men, a hobby is making something or taking something to pieces.
At the very least, it involves rolling in mud & the possibility of
   fracturing a bone.                                  "She" Magazine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 03:38:52 EST
From: jory@MIT.EDU (jory bell)
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE - RIVNUTS !!!!

Well, having gone through the rivnut odessy, I can say that what you are
looking for is not the standard trademarked RIVNUT (manufactured by BF
Goodrich). The RIVNUT's I've seen and used to mount my 2nd gas tank had
only a shallow, round flange and required the use of an installation tool.
Too bad you are in the land of oz, or I could loan you the tool and some
RIVNUTS...

-jory

>Can someone out there please help me locate some RIVNUTS!
>These are the correct fastener that is used to mount a
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
>Does anyone have any idea what I'm on about?
>Does anyone know if Craddocks stocks them??

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Guilt trip.
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 9:15:45 GMT

Agreed,agreed,Daryl.Right on mate(ahem,sorry).
I remember making an awful lot of excuses to The Domestic
Authority,like"I want a good,old fashioned English OHV
engine like the ones I was brought up on".True.I did.
With no f*****g elctronics on it.And,"Well, I'm fed up
with trying to get hay and straw out of cars,you can just
sweep these things out".But the truth of the matter was
"I want one".
I remember being distinctly angry when the Range Rover came out
because the press had it that it would replace the Land Rover.
Just shows you shouldnt believe the papers.
Although the DA didnt want one.when it threw a valve and was
off the road for a while,she actually started to badger me to
get it repaired.She *missed* it.Said she used to see them on
the road and want to shout "We've got one,but its poorly".
And we are both old enough to know better.
Suffice it to say its the only vehicle I possess,and I've already
had it longer than any other I've ever owned,and have no intentions
of selling it.And it has its twenty fifth birthday in October.
Wonder what to buy it?Suggestions on a postcard.....
Cheers
Mike Rooth
PS Bill C.In the time you've been over here,is there any significant
difference you've noticed in the way we regard our Rovers,to the way
they are regarded/treated in the US?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 22:48:46 -0800
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Breakover Angles

Craig Murray <craigp@ocs.cpsg.com.au> wrote:
>The axle straps might be there to prevent body roll on a side slope, but 
>most people will stop before they get anywhere near rolling, and remember 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>can think of, except the hummer, but I don't know about that, as I don't 
>think you can get them out here.

  45 degrees is MUCH too far, that's a 100% sideslope!  The Hummer spec's
  claim a 40 % (percent) side slope capability, or about 23.6 degrees.
  Jeep Cherokees have a 'breakover' angle of 23.1 degrees, while the
  Mercedes Benz Unimog* has a 42 % sideslope, or about 24.8 degrees.
  The 1993 Range Rover County brochure claims a breakover angle of 29
  degrees, or 48.5 % percent, while the 1993 Range Rover County LWB claims
  27 degrees in standard height and 30 degrees in high profile (a 1:2 slope)
  Although they must have that backwards since the high profile must be
  raising the center of gravity.   

  Michael Carradine    Carradine Studios                   Tel.500-442-6500
  Architect            Architecture Development Planning   Pgr.510-945-5000
  NCARB RIBA           PO Box 99, Orinda, CA 94563 USA           cs@crl.com

  *see Unimogs at ftp://ftp.crl.com/ftp/users/ro/cs/unimog.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 23:01:31 -0800
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Overlanding

> > That's one of the worries I have about my dream trip (Top of Europe to 
> > the bottom of africa and back)
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> That is one hell of a long trip!
> We are talking about several months just for Africa!

I figure at least a year, two if possible.  I want to see Europe because 
it's Europe and my Dad's from there, but Africa is the real draw for me.  
When I was a wee thing I got invited to a mostly Nigerian celebration (my 
sister is sort of an honorary Nigerian) and the food was incredible.  I 
want to experience the cultures, music, and foods of Africa.  And see the 
Kalahari.  

Don't ask me where I get it from.  My dad is a CPA who loves Opera.  Went 
camping *once* prior to High School.  My mom's idea of roughing it is 
anything less than four stars.  I'm a computer nerd.  

Go figure.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California

------------------------------

From: Spenny@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 07:01:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Miscerovius

Jim writes:
Yatta, Yatta, Blabba, Blabba, 
snip...

do you ever talk about anything other than new rovers at 
the dealerhip where you **work**
                            Roverspam geekspam salesspam

BTW some of the other BSROA members are still waiting for 
our second newsletter for which we shelled out $40/yr 
                   **makes LRO look like a good deal**

we still get notices asking us to come to some rally 
for $27.95 and vote on the nicest of 3 identical D90s, 
D110s, Discos or RRs (I don't have anything against any 
of these vehicles, I just think it is pointless to to pick the 
nicest of 3 identical, stock, less than 1 year old vehicles) 
Its a popularity contest. We might as well pick the bleeding
landrover homecoming queen.

Luckily I joined in July and only had to shell out $20 for 
one issue, to which I will add is horribly created, and more 
awfully produced. It has a more ads than any other club 
newsletter, has the **worst** production values, and is 
**still the most expensive** for $40/yr - $10-20 per issue
this should be printed, bound, and have halftones 
(photos) that are viewable and every issue should come 
with a different whitworth spanner. (not spammer)

This is the worst club deal going. Look at other clubs:
OLVR- $20 - 12/yr
ROAV (Gearbox)- $20 - 4+/yr
LORA (Aluminum Workhorse) - $20 - 4/yr
Sollihull Society - $20 - 4/yr
BSROA - $40 - 2-3-4?/yr

Where does all that money go, Jim, who is the owner of 
record for the 107, for which you are asking for cash, 
parts and labor donations?

Spenny

Spencer K. C. Norcross                               Spenny@aol.com
Haverhill, Mass. USA
508-373-1788 (W)                                508-521-4093 (H)
508-521-1380 (FAX)
===--===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===--===
1969 IIA SWB - The Wayback Machine
Now with most of the Federally requred electrics!

Land Rovers on the Information Superhighway!
What will they think of next!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 95 08:38:45 EST
From: "Lapa, Hank" <hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com>
Subject: Prospective Disco

     David and others,
     
     Thanks for the response.  I visited the other 50% of L-R dealers in my 
     area last night to get a 2nd opinion on wait time.  The suit told me 
     3-6 months.  Guess I'd better call wifey in Okinawa and get permission 
     to put the deposit down NOW.  Maybe I'd better buckle down and do me 
     taxes first to make sure I'm still viable.  Is this a great country, 
     or what?  Basic 5-speed Coniston Green from the dealer and all the 
     add-on goodies from good ole RN and AB seems to be the consensus.
     
     BTW, only had Defs and RRs on the lot at the Fairfax dealer.  That 
     bright blue on the new RRs is a total abomination...unless you're 
     putting on one of those lights-going-around-the-periphery license 
     plate holders and shag carpetting the dashboard, of course.  Also, saw 
     O.J. "squeeze" Tawny Kitaen on trash TV the other night running away 
     from pseudo-journalists in a black Calif-plated RR.  Is she on the 
     celeb owner list?
     
     Though adding a new Disco to the '60 109 in the driveway won't have 
     the same neighbor shock value as, say, a big old Forward Control, I'm 
     looking forward to it quite a lot.  The kids will love it almost as 
     much as a F/C, and the ex- will be even more pissed.
     
     Life is good,
     Hank
     

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:26:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: March LRO already?

On Tue, 28 Feb 1995 rmodica@east.pima.edu wrote:

> Just caught up on the last few days of the Digest, and I'm beginning to think
> there are two different publications called LRO.  

	Three.  One on paper that arrives late, a second that arrives 
	more or less on time (ramdomizing supplied by magazines being
	addressed with a pentium processor and going via Bermuda Triangle)
	and this mailing-list if printed out.

> 	Robin writes that he already got his March LRO.  I just got my Feb LRO
> on 2/27.  Does yours come via something called "TELESORT, Inc" out of NY or
> direct from England?  Why should there be a month's difference in delivery?

	Why is there two weeks difference in delivery within a four mile 
	radius of OVLR members in Ottawa?  At least up here, this ramdom
	arrival has been a problem for years.  Sometimes its even early!

> 	Sandy--  What is the "breakfast" on a 109?  I missed the "Op Center"
> broadcast.

	Breakfast supports the radiator grille.  The metal bit between the
	wings...

> 	Dixon-- What is "IRC", or is this another Series Three Taylor put on?

	Internet Relay Chat.  Another waste of bandwidth on the backbone. 	

	Rgds,

	Dixon

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  1 Mar 95 08:57:51 EST
From: William Dan Terry <wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com>
Subject: RE: water leaks

Unfortunately my response didn't seem to make it, so I'm trying 
again.

TeriAnn writes:

>What so it hasn't occured to anyone to renew the seal between 
the top and the 
>front of the windscreen? 

It's not that it hasn't occured to anyone, but time and cost and 
goal are factors when weighing the options. Replacing the top and 
bottom windscreen seals and the roof-roofside and 
roofside-mainbody seals costs US$140 for parts from RN, not to 
mention the time to take apart the top to do it. For my goal of a 
fulltime hardtop a US$4 tube of silicone caulk and a half-hour to 
apply it neatly is my preference to solve the leaking.

>bulkhead, those were sealed from the factory.  You can take a 
couple of hours 
>out, remove the mounting bolts raise them up, remove the old 
seal material & 
>reseal them.

Sound like a lot of work for a permanent seal. I'd rather put a 
bead of 50-year silicone caulk on the seam. I have no 
predisposition to keep everything perfectly original. I also 
believe that there are things that can be improved without 
detracting from the vehicle's nature. The tar-like substance used 
to seal the front windscreen glass is nasty. It didn't do a great 
job of sealing, and it took a long time to scrape off the glass 
and frame. I used stick-on 1/4 inch thick rubber weather 
stripping to pad the glass by sticking it to the frame and metal 
retaining strips. It will never need to be removed to replace the 
glass. To seal the glass I used a thin bead of silicone caulk on 
the outside to seal the frame-glass gap. This works great.
  
>By the way, you can also purchase gromets to protect wires going 
through 
>bulkheads. 

These don't seal the wire holes. Plus, I wasn't advocating caulk 
in place of gromets. I was just pointing out that if you seal a 
wire hole with caulk, you get the added benefit of protecting the 
wires like a gromet.

>Sometimes it might even be easier to do a proper repair or 
maintenence as it 
>does to do a bodge job.  Do you want to be known as "THE dreaded 
previous owner"
>some time in the future?

What constitutes "proper repair or maintenence" varies from 
person to person. In none of the cases I've encountered has the 
original sealing job been easier than my alternative, considering 
my fulltime hardtop goal. And I personally don't consider a neat 
caulk job to be a bodge job.

And as I mentioned originally, it is not hard to remove the 
caulk; a razor to cut the seal and a plastic spatula to remove 
the "halves" from each side (plastic because metal will gouge the 
al). IMHO it's easier to remove than most of the original seals 
which come off in small pieces.

It has been my experience with my '74 Lotus and '74 TVR that it 
is possible to use non-original methods to restore a vehicle and 
keep within the spirit of the original design. Both my sports 
cars have won multiple awards since I've worked on them.

The spirit of LR to me is extremely capable, functional and 
simple. I don't think that the way I've sealed it goes against 
this. And none of my methods are irreversable if the next owner 
wanted to return to original.

Personally, I like to hear about alternatives that others try. 
That's how we can improve our vehicles and suit them to our 
tastes. To me it's the quality of execution that makes the 
difference between good and bodge.

Peace, Bill

_____W__i__l__l__i__a__m_____D__a__n_____T__e__r__r__y______

  How do we acquire wisdom   wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com
  along with all these            MINERVA Development Team
  shiney things? (David Brin)       Booz, Allen & Hamilton 
_____ __ __ __ __ __ __ _____ __ __ _____ __ __ __ __ ______
     W  i  l  l  i  a  m     D  a  n     T  e  r  r  y

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:44:02 GMT -0600
Subject:       Rivnuts & alternators

? Walker asked about Rivnuts. I haven't found them either, but Dorman 
Nutserts seem to  work well for me. The one's I've used come in a kit 
that doesn't require any special tools (just two wrenches--I mean 
spanners). They do have a little hex nut that you have to keep in 
your tool kit if you want to insert more. The major drawback to them 
is that they are made of aluminium ( it would probably be too hard to 
install steel ones without a special tool ) so I liberally coat them 
with NeverSeeze ( use this brand, its the best--also packaged by them 
for IH tactor dealers ).
Regarding alternators, I put a Delco 108 amp in my lightweight. While 
it wasn't a "drop-in" it went fairly well. The pivot bolt hole is too 
large so I used a VW 1600cc bronze vlave guide as a bushing--it has a 
5/16 ID. I also had to fab an upper bracket.  I will warn you though, 
keep a spare belt on hand.  The clearances are close enough that much 
belt stretch will require you to  replace it to avoid the alternator 
contacting the engine mount--which I had to grind down a little. If 
you want specific part numbers let me know. You can get different 
pulleys for the alt. including double ones for driving the high 
output alt. I use it with my electric winch and it made a real 
difference. I plan to put on a double belt at some point because at 
full load it will take about 30hp to drive it--so the Delco man 
said--but since at full load I'm stationary ( who uses a winch while 
driving down the road? ) I have the hp to spare.
While on the subject of electrics. Esp. with high output alt. don't 
neglect the cables--many people do. I replaced mine with #0 welding 
cable. No noticeable voltage drop which makes a big difference. I 
used the #0 cable from the battery to the starter and winch, and a #4 
( I think ) from the alt to the battery. If you do have a winch, put 
on a heavier gauge ground cable too. I don't know why winch 
manufacturers don't. It has to carry the same amount of current as 
the hot wire. OK, I know some goes through the frame, theoretically.
And lastly, yeah really, I used welding cable beacuse it has more 
strands and so is more flexible and will have slightly less volt 
drop.

// Four wheel drive will let you get stuck in places even more 
inaccessible.

Tom Rowe
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Center for Dairy Research
1605 Linden Dr., Madison, WI 53706
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578
Home:608-243-8660
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Jeeps in snow
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:01:09 UNDEFINED

Date: 28 Feb 95 08:55:56 EST
<<  "I guess my Jeep is crap in the snow, it's certainly not as good as your
Range Rover". I << agreed and said goodbye. 
/
/Jeeps have open differentials, which means only one wheel on each drive axle
/really works at a time in slippery conditions.  Not only IMHO, is it less than
/satisfactory, it can be downright dangerous.  Late model CJ's and YJ's are so
/bad in the snow that I would not even drive one unless it had Limited Slip 
/Diffsinstalled.  They will spin out for no reason at all.
/
/Range Rovers and Defenders have full-time 4wd systems that put power to the
/wheels all the time and adapt the power output to the right wheels for the
/conditions.  Best system in the world!

NOPE!!!! This is a common misconception, even among some 4wd journalists!! 
With the difflock on a Defen....NO I wont say it - 90, or a Range Rover, the 
set up is exactly the same as the Jeep in 4wd. The superiority of the 
Landrovers is due to summat else, not traction configuration.

With the difflock off, only one wheel spins adn your traction's gone.

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject:  re: Jeeps are Crap in the snow.
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:14:36 UNDEFINED

/I have subscribed to this list to try to find out just how reliable LRs

My 90 says:-

/As for my "needs", they are:
\    -   reasonable power for highway driving (this may be a problem,
\        no?).

The modern engines (2.5 turbo deisel, or V8) are fine. The 2.25 patrol or 2.5 
n/a are weedy.

\    -   bullet-proof drivetrain.

These words cannot be spoken in the same breath as Landrover :(

\    -   easy to work on (LRs are probably the easiest from what I've
\        read).

The Series vehicles are. The later coilies with permenent 4wd (90,110) arent 
so much.

\    -   adequate ground clearance for rock crawling, preferably 9-10"
\        below the diffs.

Landrovers typically are 1-2 inches worse for diff clearance than the 
opposition. It is their weak point. Big diffs -> low clearance

------------------------------

Date: 01 Mar 95 10:16:07 EST
From: "Stefan R. Jacob" <100043.2400@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: RR purchases

> To those requesting RR purchase tips-

> Stephan Jacob (I think), fellow lrolister, recently submitted a
> report that appeared in ROAV's (or maybe OVLR's) newsletter a
> few months back.  It detailed the "what to look for and what
> to look out fors" of RR purchasing.  Perhaps he could send
> that on to the list (I don't recall ever seeing it except in

It appeared in the "Gearbox" (that's ROAV), and I'm very sorry to say that
due to my neurotic fear of "Hard Disk full" messages I've meanwhile deleted it.
Sandy, do you think you could re-post it to the interested RR-aspirants?
It mainly centered on frequently experienced faults in the drivetrain parts
of used RRs, and how to look for them. I think it also mentioned that 'wet'
power steering boxes are no big tragic thing, as long as it doesn't dribble
all over the place, and that you can live with it. BTW a leaking or wet
power steering _pump_ as opposed to the box/relay *does* spell trouble and
$$$ !  While I'm at it, another caveat: On RRs that have been standing a while
it is not uncommon to percieve a more or less acute intermittant 'squeal' from
the idling engine. The simplest cause could be loose/worn pulley belts (the
RR engine can have up to 4 of those). If this can be ruled out, the other 4
possible causes can be, in the order of probability, the 'belt tensioner
wheel' (a little adjustable passive pulley wheel on the left lower front of
the engine), the alternator bearings, the power steering pump, or the water
pump. A bad water pump usually gives off a more continuous wailing sort of
squeal. Whatever the case, it is *bad* and will cost $$$ to remedy. Alternator
as well as servo pump and also this silly little tensioner wheel are all very
expensive to overhaul or replace (the tensioner is not serviceable at all
and must be replaced outright - the same is recommended for the servo pump,
although it _can_ be overhauled). And the fault *should* be corrected, because
there is always the realistic danger of any of the afflicted bearings causing
the squeal to seize at any time which will lead to an immediate rupture of
the fan and pulley belts, causing equally immediate loss of cooling, loss of
battery charge, and loss of power steering action. The water pump usually
doesn't seize, but the inner sealing can break down and the pump will very
suddenly leak and squirt coolant all over the place. So, _listen_!

As for comparing 3.5 vs. 3.9 l V8, I subjectively don't find the 3.9 to be
much more powerful than the 3.5 except if you're towing uphill where you
can go for quite a while in 4th before having to shift down (4-cyl. owners,
plug your ears... er, eyes). I do find the 3.9 to be more, how do you say,
... cultivated? More smooth, quiet, delivering its torque more evenly. The
3.5 seems to have a torque 'lag' between 1,000 and 2,200 rpm and a pronounced
surge of torque between 3,000 and 4,500 rpm. (We're talking EFI here).
Anyway, that's my personal impression from the vehicles I've tried out. Can't
say anything for the consumption, haven't measured it on the 3.9 .

On used RRs with high mileage, rebushing the suspension rods/arms will
greatly improve handling and should be considered. Fairly easy to go and not
so expensive (except if you treat yourself to a set of Australian 'Ironman'
bushes - but that's strictly for the afficionados).

'nuff RR rant...

Stefan
<Stefan R. Jacob, 100043.2400@CompuServe.com>

------------------------------

Date: 01 Mar 95 10:16:39 EST
From: "Stefan R. Jacob" <100043.2400@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Jeeps in the snow

I'd say performance in snow is 60% drivers' skill and 35% tires; attribute
the remaining 5% to the actual vehicle properties. Big fat w-i-d-e macho
tires are pure crap in snow no matter on which vehicle, and I've seen a VW
microbus with chains outperform a Hummer on a snow-covered incline with ease,
not because a VW bus is a superior offroad vehicle, but because the Humvee -
macho was a complete idiot, thinking that raw engine power is the solution to
all traction problems...

Stefan
<Stefan R. Jacob, 100043.2400@CompuServe.com>

------------------------------

From: llevitt@idcresearch.com
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 95 10:51:16 EST
Subject: Used Range Rover prices and differential question

Given the postings about used Rover prices on the west coast, I think I'm going 
to buy up all the local stock and ship them west. '87s and '88s in New England 
are going for anywhere between $10K and $18K or so, depending on condition, 
equipment, size of oil puddle underneath and the desperation of the owner.

But it sure does seem that a reasonable early (for the US) truck can be found in
the $10K range.

Which is good, cos it means I can afford one. Thanks to all who have suggested 
places to look for such a critter...

WRT the the manual versus viscuous differential issue. It sounds to me like the 
'89 and later viscuous diff would work better in snow. How squirrelly will an 
'87 or '88 be with open diffs? I briefly drove a Trooper recently and found that
driving the thing on dry pavement with locked diffs was indeed a nono. Since 
this will be my wife's everyday car for a while, I'm not sure I can picture her 
locking and unlocking the diffs when transitioning between snowy side roads and 
wet or dry main roads...

Am I AFU or what?

(WRT the diffs, of course)

Thanks in advance,

Lee Levitt
llevitt@idcresearch.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:24:28 -0700
From: "Peter C. Parsons" <pparsons@ppsol.com>
Subject: Ne DISCO commercial (in U.S.)

Subject: New DISCO commercial (in U.S.)

	I just saw a new LR commercial for the Disco.  It features
various wild animals (lions, apes, etc)  dragging their young 
around by various body parts - the head/leg/body.
At the end it shows a White Disco driving through the jungle, with a 
comment to the effect ' The Land Rover Discovery is a far superior 
method of transporting your young'.  Very humorous, I thought!!

-Peter

     _______
    |--' |  \_|_  
    |___ +--    ]
   [|_/-\____/-\|}
      (O)    (O)     '94 Disco

-Peter C. Parsons, 

 __________
|/\^_/v^/\^|
| SKYROVR  | 
|_colorado_|

--JAA20477.794074567/ppsol.com--

----- End Included Message -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 11:05:35 EST
From: CXKS46A@prodigy.com (MR ALEXANDER P GRICE)
Subject: Diffs, open or otherwise

Mike Fredette wrote:
>ALL Land Rover products have OPEN diffs front and rear.  The exception
>being someone who has put a locking diff such as an ARB...

Land Rover experimented with a limited-slip differential in late '66 or
early '67.  They are occassionally found on Rovers of that era, but there
were problems with the unit (i.e., they broke) and the unit was withdrawn.

Mike...thanks for the tip on the Delco alternator...I'll check it out.  I
just wish that little Mitsu alternator would fit! Smaller than the Lucas,
but TWICE the output!

    *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"-----*
    |                                                      |
    |  Sandy Grice,  Rover Owners' Association of Virginia |
    |  E-Mail: CXKS46A@prodigy.com       FAX: 804-622-7056 |
    |  Voice: 804-622-7054 (Days)  804-423-4898 (Evenings) |
    |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA, 23508-1730 USA   |
    *------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:28:54 EST
From: tonyb@ejv.com (Tony Bromberg)
Subject: Shocks & springs for 89 Range Rover

Hello everyone.

I have a probing question about the springs and shocks on a 89 Range Rover (66K miles).
Under hard braking (in straight line) the car has recently developed a tendency to pull to the right.

Wheel alignment is not the problem for it tracks straight on the expressway.  And the wheels where
freshly balanced.

Promptly I have inspected all rotors, calipers, and pads (fronts were replaced).  I also bled
the brake system and replenished it with fresh dot4 brake fluid.  The pedal felt stiffer with better
modulation under hard braking.  I followed the usual brake pad bedding process followed by intense braking
till fade (front pads were smoking).

Interestingly enough, the problem still persists.  I suspect its a combination of worn shocks (dampeners)
and springs.

While parked on a lever ground I proceeded to measure ride hight at every corner.  The front right was an inch
lower.  So its probably a bad spring.  Although a bad shock could cause this on a passenger car, however according
to people in NorthEast of US its not the case with RR.

A week later I decided to remeasure the ride hight once again to see if the situation has deteriorated.  To my
surprise it was the rear left that was lower.  Maybe the car needed to settle after being driven.

So at this point I'm rather dubious about my conclusions.  I wold like to know what springs (stock variable rate or
aftermarked linear) to go with or what shocks (Bilsteins ??) to go with if they need to be changed.  Also, should
I change the 5th shock by the front sway-bar?

Many thanks in advance!!!!

Tony B.
89 Range Rover
91 M3 track prepared.

Keep the sunny side up.

------------------------------

From: C Taylor Sutherland III <taylors@hubcap.clemson.edu>
Subject: The Gimme's
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:32:07 -0500 (EST)

Yeah, I got the Gimme's!  gimme gimme gimme!  I desperately want a lr!
I have heard so many good things about them and bad things as well.

loud - who cares?
smells - who cares?
slow to accel - who cares as long as it gets me where I want to go
before nightfall.  :)
cramped - I might care, I hope not.  I sat in a IIa.  It was a bit
cramped but it had crappy seats.  But it wasn't as cramped as a
certain land cruiser I once drove.  The pedals are put in the correct
place as to avoid too much strain.

I hope to go test drive one (III 88") next week sometime.  I'm
expecting a loud roudy truck that I can fix by looking at it lovingly.
I hope to find that.  If not, I may buy it anyway!  :)  Nothing much
could be worse than this crap Blazer I have...no offense to Poodle
wherever he is, great guy, but he sold me a lemon.  :(

So I wanna wanna wanna!  gimme gimme gimme!  

Is that enthusiastic enough for you?  True the Blazer has more leg
room and a higher (not that much higher) top speed, but the 4wd sucks,
the suspension is about to fall off, and the tranny never did let me
shift right, double clutching or no, plus, if I took the top off the
Blazer, the doors wouldn't open anymore.  :)

So here's to sweat, blood, and mud!  and to rovers!  May I not bite
off more than I can chew.  At the very worst, I can keep it for a
little while in perfect condition and sell it as a down payment on a
D-90 3.9 V8...pipe dream...

Taylor

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:36:42 PST
From: labranch@sybase.com (Jason LaBranch)
Subject: Re: Jeeps in the snow

> I'd say performance in snow is 60% drivers' skill and 35% tires; attribute
> the remaining 5% to the actual vehicle properties. Big fat w-i-d-e macho

I don't know about this.  I'd say I am a very good driver but I have driven
in a snow storm that I could not have done without my 84 Subaru Wagon that
had crappy tires.  In this snow storm there were 4x4's all over the side of
the road.  I was the ONLY vehicle I saw going the speed limit from Manhattan
to Sullivan County (2hr).  I would continually check to see if I was driving a
safe speed by shaking my wheels back and forth when there were no other
vehicles around.  I think SUVs and Jeeps and Land Rovers are good for
OFFROADING and Subarus are good for driving on the road in slick conditions.

A good driver is key ( I wont give percentages here) but a good driver
must pick the right vehicle for the right job and that is part of being
a good driver.  All thought when I was an apprentice mason my boss always
told me, "It aint the tool kid,  It's the tool pusher."

I think your right that a bad driver will foul up with any vehicle.

Your also correct that tires have alot to with it

Just some of my stupid oppinions and experiences.

Jason LaBranch				| To find your way, look within!
Parallel Products Group			|	-- AAA Road Atlas
Sybase Engineering  (510) 922-4690	|

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Breakover Angles 
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 10:07:14 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

Michael Carradine wrote:
> Craig Murray <craigp@ocs.cpsg.com.au> wrote:

> >and remember 
> >that you have to get the thing onto about 45 degrees before it will roll 

  
>   45 degrees is MUCH too far, that's a 100% sideslope!  The Hummer spec's
>   claim a 40 % (percent) side slope capability, or about 23.6 degrees.

	I have seen photos of a Series Rover with driver inside stable at
45 degrees side angle.  Now for off road use, you are bouncing around and so,
since every bounce gives the high side an upward vector the angle for which
you rollover will decrease with speed.  Also, the more you load your Rover
(and the higher up you load is) the more the load will cause your Rover's
side angle to be greater than the slope's of the hill you are on (and hence
decrease the angle that you rollover).  
	For off road use, the number that I have heard for Series Land Rovers 
is that they are safe (unloaded) to about 30 degrees.

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications International Corporation
 China Lake Naval Air Warfare Center
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 13:43:55 -0500
From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Subject: D-90 US Prices

Rob asked:

>I have been looking for a similar listing for the '95 Defender 90. Do you 
>have this information, or can you point me in the direction of the 
>"Automobile Invoice Services - New car cost guide, issue 3 (1995)"?  Is this 
>online, or would is it available for purchase ? 

The reference is a large soft cover book I looked through while visiting my 
credit union.  I don't know how to go about purchasing a copy.  I happened to 
be going by there during lunch and jotted down the following (using issue 4):

                   Invoice              Retail

US D-90            $25790               $28650

Soft Top, Sliding  $1680                $1975 
glass door tops,
Rear Safari Cage 

Air Conditioning   $1530                $1800  

Black Paint        $250                 $300

Fiberglass Top     $1120                $1400

Alloy wheels       $750                 $900

Destination        $625                 $625

Somehow I thought that the hard top was more expensive.  Yes, I did double 
check the figures listed.  Have fun.

Bill

maloney@wings.attmail.com

------------------------------

From: Mr Ian Stuart <IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 14:39:49 +0000
Subject: To Robin - address bounced

> I have yet to see the article myself. It was submitted a long time ago 
> now. i am sure in the best emap tradition it will have been well hacked 
> apart. I do not know the key fob guy, he is in the US somewhere. I dont 
> have his name to hand. Can you please give it to me perhaps?
I'll find out tonight & send it to you for tomorrow..

> What stuff do you have at the SLROC? any stamps?
Stickers, badges, bags, ubrellers (sp?), t-shirts, sweatshirts, 
"home"-videos of our playing,.......

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
WWW sites: Work -- <http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/>      
           Play -- <http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/>
#======================================================================#
To men, a hobby is making something or taking something to pieces.
At the very least, it involves rolling in mud & the possibility of
   fracturing a bone.                                  "She" Magazine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 13:26:49 EST
From: "ANTHONY F. QUATTROMANI INTERNET:AQUATTROMANI@SYSCON.HII.COM"
Subject: subscribe

subscribe

------------------------------

From: Tom Stevenson <gbfv08@udcf.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Questions...
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:43:27 +0000 (GMT)

I keep six honest serving men
(They taught me all I knew);
Their names are What and Why and When
And How and Where and Who.

-- 
Tom Stevenson: gbfv08@udcf.gla.ac.uk
University Marine Biological Station, Isle of Cumbrae, Scotland
Tel:(0475) 530581  Fax:(0475) 530601

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:07:18 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: Re:  Shocks & springs for 89 Range Rover

IMO, thje most likely cause of the problem is the front bushings on the 
rear radius arms -- they need replacing. They wear rapidly and cause just
the symptoms you relate. Replacement is very easy.

Re the spring heights etc -- all the springs are different lengths in LR's
attempt to compensate for engine slightly off to one side and other asynnetries.
In my experience they have over-compensated, and when I recently got sick
of my RR's permanent list to starboard I replaced both rear springs with the
stock LEFT spring, which is slightly longer than the right. This levelled
the vehicle better, especially when under load or towing. The front springs
have about an inch of difference in lengths, but I haven't got around
to replacing them yet.

Re shocks, my personal opinion is to stick to the genuine article which were 
much more carefully selected for ride, travel etc than you or I copuld hope to
do by trying different aftermarket ones.

Just an opinion...

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:10:37 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: Re: Jeeps in the snow

Aside from the 4wd systems etc, probably the old fashioned narrow tires of the RR
RR are better in snow (except deep hard packed) than the modern fat tires
of the Grand Cherokee. If you include the lighter weight of the Cherokee
in your sums, the RR probably has at least 50% more ground contact pressure
per square inch than the jeep -- bad for sand but good for snow!

Cheers

John

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 95 12:28:43 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Any 88's or 109's for sale???

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Any 88's or 109's for sale???
Hello all,

How about helping those of us "on the edge of buying" a series ???, RR,
or Defender by a brief spell (day or two) of posting all known LR's for
sale? I too have been "looking" to see what's out there, but have seen
VERY LITTLE available in Arizona. (Or anywhere else for that matter.)

I've only heard of a 88 in California for $8500 and a doormobile for
something like $12000. Oh! and a RR for $19000.

So how'bout it? What's out there??? Units for sale and prices...

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

From: "Mugele, Gerry" <Gerry.Mugele@wellsfargo.com>
Subject: Alternators
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 95 11:42:00 PST

Someone asked about replacement alternators.  My SIII finally ate its 
original dynamo last month after 22 plus years of faithful service. 
 Prevented me from going on the great Granville/Morgan Mendocino 
Forest/Trial by Mud expedition :-(
Anyway I replaced it with a Bosch unit.  Dropped right in, no conversion at 
all and cost about $120 (including belt) after taxes etc.  Not sure of the 
specs but I know it exceeds the stock Lucas that it replaced.  Had to order 
it and it took a couple days to get.  If you want I'll look up the details, 
lemme know.
Only one possible negative point...it seems to whine a little, like a turbo, 
especially right after start-up on cold mornings.  Thought it might be the 
bearings but all seems fine...no brass/copper filings oozing anywhere and 
the battery always seems to be at 14v.  If I have problems I'll be sure to 
let everyone know.

Gerry 72 88

** "Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out 
of a tube.  That is why God made fast motorcycles.       --Hunter S. 
Thompson

------------------------------

From: jpappa01@InterServ.Com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:53:19 PST
Subject: Re: 	Bad News, Good News

Just received word that Land Rover has increased the price of the Discovery by 
about $600! Which means that there is no longer a new Discovery available for 
*under* thirty grand.

The good news is that all those who are on waiting lists with orders in will 
NOT be subject to the price increase - LRNA will absorb the six bucks for 
LRUK. Of course, those who were agonizing over a purchase decision the past 
few weeks will unfortunately be exposed to the new MSRP. 

Also, 1996 Discos will have power seat option, self-dimming mirror, better 
audio, etc., etc. For 1997 - look for an *LWB* version of Disco - six inches 
longer body - to accomodate a true third rear seat - possibly stowing under 
the floor along with some body updates. Its obvious that Disco is evolving 
just like the Range Rover has. Sounds to me like upmarket Discos will 
ultimately cancel out the Range Rover Classic - or at the least share price 
points.

cheerz
Jim *sales geek*
Roverheadus onandon gibberishum

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:56:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Morgan Hannaford <morgan@nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ne DISCO commercial-addendum

> 	I just saw a new LR commercial for the Disco.  It features
> various wild animals (lions, apes, etc)  dragging their young 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> comment to the effect ' The Land Rover Discovery is a far superior 
> method of transporting your young'.  Very humorous, I thought!!

If you listen really closely, the british deadpan voice said....
"......far superior to carrying your young, in your mouth".

I just about busted a gut!

Morgan

------------------------------

From: Kelly Minnick <minnick@joker.chinalake.navy.mil>
Subject: Fed Ex
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 12:29:18 PST

RE: FED EX
FAX'ed these people back their silly form.  They promised the order would be
at my door today.  Today they called and said it was being held up because of
the cloth head linner and cloth rear bench seat cushions.  Seems they had to
know where the cloth came from or something.  This is really strange!
Kelly Minnick  '73 88" Safari
Ridgecrest, CA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 12:46:45 -0800
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Breakover Angles

William Dan Terry <wterry@sartre.minerva.bah.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately my response didn't seem to make it, so I'm trying 

>again.

  Maybe I'm not the only one who's messages don't seem to be getting through.

Craig Murray <craigp@ocs.cpsg.com.au> wrote:
>The axle straps might be there to prevent body roll on a side slope, but 
>most people will stop before they get anywhere near rolling, and remember 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>can think of, except the hummer, but I don't know about that, as I don't 
>think you can get them out here.

  45 degrees is MUCH too far, that's a 100% sideslope!  The Hummer spec's
  claim a 40 % (percent) side slope capability, or about 23.6 degrees.
  Jeep Cherokees have a 'breakover' angle of 23.1 degrees, while the
  Mercedes Benz Unimog* has a 42 % sideslope, or about 24.8 degrees.
  The 1993 Range Rover County brochure claims a breakover angle of 29
  degrees, or 48.5 % percent, while the 1993 Range Rover County LWB claims
  27 degrees in standard height and 30 degrees (a 1:2 slope) in high profile. 
  Although the Rover Group must have that backwards since the high profile
  raises the car 1.6 inches and therefore also the center of gravity.   

  Michael Carradine    Carradine Studios                   Tel.500-442-6500
  Architect            Architecture Development Planning   Pgr.510-945-5000
  NCARB RIBA           PO Box 99, Orinda, CA 94563 USA           cs@crl.com

  *see Unimogs at ftp://ftp.crl.com/ftp/users/ro/cs/unimog.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  1 Mar 1995 16:00:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Jon Humphrey <jh5r+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fed Ex

Kelly muses;
>RE: FED EX
>FAX'ed these people back their silly form.  They promised the order would be
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>the cloth head linner and cloth rear bench seat cushions.  Seems they had to
>know where the cloth came from or something.  This is really strange!

Kelly, maybe they have to run it past "Rovers Nose", the drug sniffing pooch.
Can't be too careful these days 'ya know.
Later
Jon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:12:05 +0800
From: William.Grouell@Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell)
Subject: Re: Rivnuts & alternators

> Regarding alternators, I put a Delco 108 amp in my lightweight. While 
> it wasn't a "drop-in" it went fairly well. The pivot bolt hole is too 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
> contacting the engine mount--which I had to grind down a little. 
> Tom Rowe
  

  This closly follows my experience putting a Delco on my 2.25L 88. I found
that the belt lines up with a 1" spacer with a 5/16" hole, on the stock
lower generator mount. A stack of washers will work, but I made one from 1"
dia. bar stock. I moved the stock tension adjusting bracket one stud toward
the left wing. Find the right belt and that's it for mechanical. The parts
store will sell you a plug that connects to the "sense" terminal and the
"light" terminal of the Delco. Put this on the "field" wire and the
"light" wire. My Rover has a Lucas regulator that has most of it cut off (the
top half that has all the coils and points and other junk that goes bad.)
It has all the terminals shorted together with a brass buss bar. As I remember
the last one on the right, that went to the idiot (charge) light is separate.
This keeps the wiring very nearly stock. I will FAX a wiring diagram, if you
want it.

R,bg 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:25:27 -0800
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Re: Breakover Angles

Morgan Hannaford <morgan@nature.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:

>I thought breakover angle is the triangle between the front wheels
>rear wheels and frame, longitudinally.  It estimates how hight of
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
>read to never go over 23 degrees when moving.
>I'm only replying to you because I may be totally wrong........

  Morgan,

  I believe you are correct.  The breakover angle is the inverse of
  the approach/departure angle, that is, from a level position to
  a downslope ramp.  When the vehicle crosses over the edge, the
  edge will encroach into the space between the front and rear
  wheels towards the chassis.  As I read the 1993 Range Rover County
  LWB spec's again the Angle of Approach with spoiler in standard
  height: 30 degrees, the Angle of Departure in standard height: 30
  degrees, Breakover Angle in standard height 27 degrees.  Sideslope
  is not mentioned, as you say, probably for liability reasons.

  Overturning a vehicle is more complicated than a mere sideslope
  angle anyway.  As mentioned, the load and placement of the load
  are factors, any deviation from 90 degrees to the slope will load
  the front or back suspensions differently, then the stiffness or
  'give' of the suspension factored with its age and condition all
  contribute to a rollover.  It was my impression that a reason that
  earlier Jeeps (as shown on 60 Minutes) rolled so easy was that when
  at 30 mph on a flat roadway a driver attempted a turn or swerve,
  the opposing front corner suspension was so weak that it tucked the
  vehicle down, this, with a short wheelbase and a high center of
  gravity, percipitated the rollover.

  Anyway, thanks again for the correction.

  Michael Carradine    Carradine Studios                   Tel.500-442-6500
  Architect            Architecture Development Planning   Pgr.510-945-5000
  NCARB RIBA           PO Box 99, Orinda, CA 94563 USA           cs@crl.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:33:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Breakover Angles

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Michael Carradine wrote:

>   45 degrees is MUCH too far, that's a 100% sideslope!  The Hummer spec's
>   claim a 40 % (percent) side slope capability, or about 23.6 degrees.

	I will see if I can get the page number from an old LR publication
	that has a photo of a Series One lifted by a hydraulic lift
	on one side, a large chalk board in the background that says
	40 degrees, the text somewhere saying that if stationary, it can
	go to 45 degrees (one foot horizontal, one foot vertical) before
	tipping over.  

	Rgds,

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date:          Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:38:00 GMT -0600
Subject:       Delco Alternators

I got a message from William Grouell who has done a similar 
instalation on his '88'.  It reminded me that with the Delco's you 
will need a diode wired off a ign. switched circut to energize the 
alternator so it will charge. Also, if you have a Prince of Darkness 
alternator, the bracket needs to be replaced with a IIA generator bracket. 
I removed the alternator bracket stud and used a 5/16 rod (threaded both ends) 
about 7-8" long that passes through the hole the old stud was in.
Any wiring changes will vary depending on what your  vehicle started 
out with and what's been changed over the years. I've seen few 
original wiring systems.

Tom Rowe
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Center for Dairy Research
1605 Linden Dr., Madison, WI 53706
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578
Home:608-243-8660
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:39:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Any 88's or 109's for sale???

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995 DEBROWN@SRP.GOV wrote:

> So how'bout it? What's out there??? Units for sale and prices...

	Restoration projects, IE vehicles that are complete, original,
	and generally could use a new frame, springs?  Lots of them...
	What particular year or type do you want?  Prices will vary from the
	mid hundreds to upwards of $2,000 for something nice, but needs a 
	frame (Cdn dollars/northern peso here).  The ones where someone
	else has already done all the work will cost more, though Cdn.
	prices have not hit the USA level, they are rising.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 13:57:41 +0800
From: William.Grouell@Eng.Sun.COM (William L. Grouell)
Subject: Re: Breakover Angles

> On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Michael Carradine wrote:
> >   45 degrees is MUCH too far, that's a 100% sideslope!  The Hummer spec's
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> >   45 degrees is MUCH too far, that's a 100% sideslope!  The Hummer spec's
> >   claim a 40 % (percent) side slope capability, or about 23.6 degrees.
  

  In L/R Workhorse of the World there is a picture of a Series ? Rover
ambulance on the factory tilt-o-meter. The needle is pointng at ~50!

R,bg

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 17:00:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Breakover Angles

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, William L. Grouell wrote:

>   In L/R Workhorse of the World there is a picture of a Series ? Rover
> ambulance on the factory tilt-o-meter. The needle is pointng at ~50!

	Forgot about that one...  Methinks some are getting the percentage
	and the degrees mixed up here, or confused.  Of course, by the time
	you are leaning about 20 degrees it begins to get un-nerving, let
	alone 40-45 degrees.  (no, haven't tried & not sure I want to yet)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:40:12 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: RR braking/steering /springs/shock problems

Sorry I lost the address of the person who posted a message about this -- just
wanted to make sure you checked out all the steering ball joints first before replacing the trailing arm
bushings that are likely the problem.

Cheers

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Subject: 89 Range Rover...should I buy it?
From: ostravler@bitbytes.clark.net (Evan Prytherch)
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 07:40:00 -0500

Greetings,
I found an 89 Range Rover (ivory) with 82,000 miles at a local dealer.
It's loaded with leather seats, sun roof, and the brush package.  The
vehicle is VERY clean.  The previous owner just installed 4 new brake
rotors.  This Rover is available for $15,000...is this a good deal?  Is
there any nasty spots I should look for?
Thanks in advance.
Evan...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 95 15:30:22 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Re: Any 88's or 109's for sale???

FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB219 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Re: Any 88's or 109's for sale???
Dixon,

I'd like to find a decent 109 4-door (station wagon? With seating for
9-11 or what ever they came with.) Body doesn't matter much to me, but
would like a good runner. I would need to be able to "import" it to US,
so from what I hear, that'd be a pre 1968? Unless later ones in Canada
are up to US spec's. I guess to save $$ it'd be okay to find one needing
a frame. What's a frame cost? Can I get a coil spring frame to fit? And,
if I found one with a bad/missing engine (to save $$) I have a Buick V6
turbo sitting around, would that "fit"? (With adaptors, of course.)

Having seen NONE of these in the Phoenix Arizona paper, I'd be willing
to settle for almost anything!

LR engine/trans or even a transplanted engine/trans would be okay. Kind
of like the idea of having a little more power than the 4 cyl. but not
sure how that would affect the durability of the drive train. Any advice
in that area? I'd LOVE a turbo diesel. Is that available? Next
preference would be for a diesel, but I've never owned one before.

Are there many coil spring conversions? Ever heard of one or seen one in
action? I'd think that the ride would be better, and the wheel travel
more, am I right???

Sheesh! Now I'm sounding like a total newby! Well, I guess I am. sorry,
I hope your patience holds up!

(Do they come in blue? LH cranks? smokebender exhaust? muffler bearings?
how do I rotate the taillight oil? Do you crank the opposite direction
if it's south of the equator? etc... etc...)

Thanks,

#=======#                Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|__|__|__\___            can change the world... indeed, it's the only
| _|  |   |_ |}          thing that ever has.
"(_)""""""(_)"                                          -Margaret Mead
*** Reply to note of 03/01/95 14:40
=========================================================================
   Wed, 01 Mar 95 14:40:07 MST
          id AA14088; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 14:23:47 -0700
	id AA23216; Wed, 1 Mar 95 16:39:47 EST
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 16:39:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: Re: Any 88's or 109's for sale???
Cc: lro@team.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 1 Mar 1995 DEBROWN@SRP.GOV wrote:

> So how'bout it? What's out there??? Units for sale and prices...

	Restoration projects, IE vehicles that are complete, original,
	and generally could use a new frame, springs?  Lots of them...
	What particular year or type do you want?  Prices will vary from the
	mid hundreds to upwards of $2,000 for something nice, but needs a
	frame (Cdn dollars/northern peso here).  The ones where someone
	else has already done all the work will cost more, though Cdn.
	prices have not hit the USA level, they are rising.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:04:42 -0800
From: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: Scouting Outing rescheduled

Fellow netters, I appologize for not making the announcement sooner.  I had 
earlier announced that there would be a Mendocino Forest Scouting Outing 2, 
next weekend.  Too many of us who wanted to go were simply not going to be 
ready in time so we have decided to reschedule for the weekend of 25-26 
March 1995.  

Again, for any of you who missed the first announcement, we plan to camp 
overnight in the Letts Lake area.  Our purpose (aside from getting our 
Land-Rovers scratched and muddy) is to scout routes, trails, and campsites 
for the Mendocino Forest Rallye II, scheduled for the weekend of the 29th of 
April 1995.  After this scouting trip, we will lay our detailed plans for 
the April event and post more information on the net.

Any LROs who wish to go with us on this scout-out should e-mail or call:

     Granville Pool 
     <mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net> or 
     <Granville_Pool@RedwoodFN.Org>
     Phone: (707)485-7220=home or (707)463-4265=work

or

     Morgan Hannaford 
     <morgan@nature.Berkeley.EDU>
     Phone: (510)883-0931

See you in the woods!

Granville

------------------------------

From: "John R. Benham" <BENHAM@WFOCLAN.USBM.GOV>
Date:          Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:19:53 +1100
Subject:       MORE Nat. Geo. Land Rovers!

Dear LRO's,

    Here are some more National Geographic Magazine Rover sitings:

1. December, 1991, p. 149: Red Range Rover in a Goodyear Wrangler ad.
2. June, 1990, p. 110: Green 109 pickup IIA? in Rosseau, Dominica
3. April, 1988, p. 489: White D110 UN escorting Ugandans back to
   Uganda from Sedan.
4. February, 1972, p. 154,155: Marine Blue 88 Safari and 109 4-dr.
   Safari w/roof-rack ferrying tourists to watch Cheetahs feeding
   on a Gazelle in Kenya's Nairobi National Park.

5. But the best, so-far, is the March, 1961 issue, p. 368-389:

     `We Drove Panama's Darien Gap!

And guess which vehicle was their expedition's vehicle of choice???  
You got it!  A Marine Blue 88 Safari Land Rover!  It survived river 
crossings, several roll overs, and a 70-foot fall!  This article has 
numerous photos of their Land Rover in action!  Plently of winching, 
stream crossings, and bailing out stuck jeeps!

Enjoy,

John R. Benham
Spokane, WA  USA
1968 88 IIA `Bwana Mobile'

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Any 88's or 109's for sale???
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 18:48:13 EST

> FROM:  David Brown                           Internet: debrown@srp.gov
>        Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 15 lines)]
> I've only heard of a 88 in California for $8500 and a doormobile for
> something like $12000. Oh! and a RR for $19000.
> So how'bout it? What's out there??? Units for sale and prices...

Nigel: 1960 Series II 88, blindsider hardtop, tailgate, Fairey OD, Warn
Hubs.  Loaded with character dents, otherwise in good running condition.
Needs paint (aw, no it doesn't).
Asking $1,000,000.00 US but will settle for $950,000.00

Need money to buy a home in the metro NY area.

rd/nigel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 19:57:52 -0500
From: jpg4447@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (JACK GEISE)
Subject: LR's for sale

FOR SALE:

1970, Series IIA, 109, petrol with safari roof, overdrive, new fuel tank, new 
brakes/lines/cylinders, etc. Very good shape, though could stand a tune-up. 
Asking $4500 US.

1972, Series III, 88, petrol station wagon. Good shape. Asking $1500 US.

Both vehicles fully licensed and inspected, 16" wheels, etc. Available in 
Potsdam, NY USA. Send inquiries via e-mail (jpg4447@craft.camp.clarkson.edu) 
or to J. Geise, 54 Elm St. Potsdam, NY 13676, 
USA.

------------------------------

Date: 01 Mar 95 19:23:59 EST
From: "WILLIAM  L. LEACOCK" <75473.3572@compuserve.com>
Subject: Nutserts

Nutserts can easily be fitted without the use of special tools, fit the same way
as rivnuts. The rivnuts that came with my capstan winch 20 years ago did not
have hex. merely a diagram on how to fit

 Take a screw ( def a bolt that has a thread that extends to the head)  and fit
a standard nut to it. 
screw the screw into the nutsert/rivnut with a plain washer between the nut and
the sert so that the thread protrudes thro the sert.
Fit the assembly into the hole.
 With a spanner (aka usa wrench) hold the bolt head and with another spanner (
wrench) tighten the nut onto the washer and sert. the purposeof the washer is to
take the torque from tightening the nut without turning the rivnut as well
This has the efffect of compressing the plain portion of the rivnut/sert into
the hole and locking it in place. 

Doug 
ser 1 landies had a mechanical operated clutch release system, ser 2 and 3 both
use a hydraulic slave cylinder, the difference between 2 and 3 is the linkage
and mechanism from the cylinder to the clutch pressure plate. the ser 2 is less
problematical since the bearing is more substantial and better lubricated. 
 an advantage of the ser 3 is the mechanism is inside the gearbox bell housing
and easier to seal and keep clean.

 Regards   Bill Leacock      Limey in exile.

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:37:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 89 Range Rover...should I buy it?

>I found an 89 Range Rover (ivory) with 82,000 miles

Sounds like Annabelle, my '89 ivory RR with78,000 miles.  I bought mine 1 1/2
years ago with 56,000 miles for $20,500.  Yours sounds like a good truck at a
fair price.  Mine has been a great truck.  I bought mine from
Atlantic-British so they warranteed the parts for the first few months I
drove it.  I was able to live with the car and send them a list of what was
wrong.  They sent me the parts and I provided the labor to install.  Here is
what I did to the vehicle:  I replaced the exhaust system (rusted) with
stainless steel,  the power steering pump was leaking & was replaced (common
problem, I understand), steering bushings (not needed, the RR had a wandering
problem that later turned out to be the tires), and a few other odds & ends.
 Since that time I have replaced the alternator/regulator, tires (big
improvement), brake pads (RR's eat em up), and the gas tank ('89's have a
corrosion point between the tank & skid plate.  Rough off-roading opened up a
leak).  

>From my experience and from others I think that the '89 RR is one of the
better years.  Rover just improved the engine and transmission, and had yet
to add some of their more problematic features like ABS, alarms & such.  The
'89 does not have the anti-sway bars that were later added in '91, so it does
take some getting used to the whale-ish handling.  Off-road it is impecable,
however.  Good luck!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 21:21:02 EST
From: jory@MIT.EDU (jory bell)
Subject: Re: Nutserts

>Nutserts can easily be fitted without the use of special tools, fit the
>same way
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 16 lines)]
>This has the efffect of compressing the plain portion of the rivnut/sert into
>the hole and locking it in place.

FWIW:

A few months back I tried quite hard to do the above rinvut installation
sans tools with great frustration. I eventually just bought the tool.

-jory

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Rover 3litre parts
Date: Wed, 01 Mar 95 08:22:00 EST

I've lost the name, but someone was enquiring about spares for the three 
litre saloon. I recently received a delightfully hand written, atrociously 
photocopied list from "ROVERLAND" in the UK. They appear to have a large 
variety of parts and accessories and to be true enthusiasts. Their number is 
0113 245 9569 Fax 0113 244 2570.

------------------------------

From: LuckyJoe@aol.com
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 21:48:29 -0500
Subject: Re: LRO Digest

As a potential Discovery owner, I've been reading the digest with much
interest. I am particularly drawn to the Series comments and the longevity of
these vehicles. I would like to believe that a Series Land Rover is in my
future, but for now the DIsco is a more appropriate choice. 

One thing that has kept me guessing is the longevity of the newer Land
Rovers. Will a DIsco or Defender still be an the road in 25 years? Since the
Series Rovers are seemingly fond of leaking fluids, does that mean the 'my'
Disco eventually will too?

I'm still convinced that I'm making the right choice, I'm just interested in
your collective opinions. I would appreciate any insights.

BTY, On 25 Feb 1995 Walter C. Swain wrote:

>>The local Public Radio station.......while on the subject of getting a Land
Rover
serviced or repaired, one of them said it didn't matter, they fix them on
the Internet!  Are these guys wired?<<

They are! It's actualy the NPTN - NATIONAL PUBLIC TELECOMPUTING NETWORK. They
are set-up throughout the USA and I believe there is an affiliation with
National Public Radio.

Doubtless there's a Land Rover there as well!!

Tom Proctor
Lucky Joe@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 22:53:27 -0500
From: Andrew Steele <ad158@dayton.wright.edu>
Subject: Re: UK LR Training

Jeromy,

Congradulations on the choice of a canal boat.  I've been on three canal boat
trips now.  Going to try same in the South of France this fall.  

Anyway, I spent two days with Land Rover.  Their factory training is called
the Land Rover Experience and  consists of three levels.

        Level 1 - 1 day - cost 110 sterling + VAT - @ factory in Solihul
                Land Rover Familiarisation Course
                Choice of vehicles to drive (I tried 110 diesel, discover
                diesel, RR diesel and RR lwb 4.0)
                * "Contents include instruction and practical experience in:
the capabilities of the vehicle, controls, surveying the ground, ground
clearance, steering, gear selection, gradients (good stuff on the huge dirt
mound that was once their on site dump), side slopes (reach out & touch dirt
it seemed like), wading/fording (no rain for weeks when I was there, but still
water 3+ feet deep in which to play -- tracks that they call the "jungle"),
load distrubition(don't remember covering) recovery, conservation.

This was a really great day, lunch in the factory lunch room.  Amazing how
much/varied of inclines and wet tracks they have on the factory grounds.

        Level II- 1 day - cost 220 sterling +Vat - @ Eastham Castle/Estate
        This was a day spent trail riding, applying what we learned the
previous day in Level I. 1 instructor and 2 students per vehicle.  Good
stuff!!!!!!.

        Level III - 1 day - cost 440 (I didn't take this one)
        Land Rover Instructor Courses, "These courses are designed for
companies with Land Rover leets who wish to conduct their own "at work"
courses."  Also tought at Eastham.

We timed on canal boat trip to be on the Grand Union Canal on the date of my
first class.  I got off the boat at a bridge in Solihul (canal goes along side
the LR factory) and walked to the guards gate.  I had gone to the wrong side
of the plant (huge area), but the LR Experience staff drove over and picked me
up.  At the end of the day, they gave me a ride into Birmingham where I
rejoined the boat at Gas Street Basin.  Later that night I met up with some
firefighter who had come into town for a rugby tournment ....but that's
another long story.  Suffice it to say we were refused entry into one of the
classes nightclubs late that night.  Gee, I was even wearing a tie.  Anyway,
the next morning LR Experience staff member Brian Pearson (Very big Thanks if
you see this) again picked me up at the boat and drove me to Eastham. (Aprox 2
hour drive).  At the end of the day, he gave me a ride back to Birmingham
again.  Wonderful folks and program.

If you look at a AAA map, [EASTNOR]  sorry about previous mis-spelling above,
Eastnor is located close to the M5 and M50 interchange.  The castle is marked
on my map close to the village of Ledbury.

E-mail if you want me to send you a copy of their brochure & application form.

                        The Land Rover Experience
                        Land Rover, Lode Lane
                        Solihul, West Midlands
                        B92 8NW  England
                        phone 021 700 4070

Hope this is of interest,
Andrew Steele & lum (Great Dane
Dayton, OHio

ad158@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU

------------------------------

From: "T.F. Mills" <tomills@du.edu>
Subject: Re: Miscerovius
Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 22:35:50 -0700 (MST)

Spenny fumeth re BSROA:
 
< This is the worst club deal going. Look at other clubs:
<snip>
< Sollihull Society - $20 - 4/yr

Correction:  that's $16 for 6 issues.  What a deal!

T. F. Mills (editor of selfsame newsletter)              tomills@du.edu
University of Denver Library  2150 E. Evans Ave.  Denver  CO 80208  USA
      http://mercury.cair.du.edu/~tomills (under construction)

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 


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