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From: "Keith Coman" <BAKC@giraffe.ru.ac.za>
Date:          Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:00:57 GMT+0200
Subject:       New Zealand Land Rovers -- Advice please!

Howzit all,
    The family and I will be moving to take up residence in New 
Zealand in March this year.  As a long term Landie fanatic, I'll be 
looking acquire an example of "The Best Four By Four By Far" as soon 
as funds and opportunity permit.
    Without overburdening the patience of any folk in the group 
having direct experience of the Landie situation in NZ, I'd be very 
grateful for some general advice along the following lines:

1.
Very average prices for a "good condition" LWB Safari Series 2 or 3.

2.
The best area to go shopping. Auckland? South Island?  No real 
difference?

3.
Any particular "gotchas" related to buying a Landie in NZ (e.g. most 
having been used to dump boats in salt water)?

Thanks in advance!
Keith Coman * Dept of Management, Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa *
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 00:50:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Roland Sonnenburg <sonnenbr@ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: How good really?

	I am new to this list, and potentially about to be new to the 
world of land rovers, although I have been dreaming about them for 
years.  I have millions of questions as I try to decide what my next 
vehicle will be, but for now just a couple, sorry if they are a tad 
ignorant.  My main question is how good are they off road really.  They 
are so legendary that it is hard to determine their real world 
worthiness.  Everyone just seems to know, except me.  I do SAR, and tend 
to play hard, and am looking for a vehicle that will get me home.  While 
LR charm is unquestionable, I just need to know how they compare when it 
comes to clearance, suspension, sideslopes, traction, etc, to any of the 
more traditional 4x4s (Cherokee, Yukon, Bronco, pickup. . .) Assuming I 
had ARBs, decent tires and suspension, and I tried, which vehicle would 
be winched more?  Or am I missing the point entirely?
	The actuall LR that I am considering is a beautiful (no rust, 
nice looking frame, etc) LWB Station Wagon.  I am not sure of my 
nomenclature, but it was originally built in 65, and seems to have been 
completely rebuilt in 92.  It has a four cylinder, which I would be 
inclined to replace with an eight (if I do you will all get lots more 
questions!)  BTW, what would seem like a fair price to you guys?
	I would be using it as a daily driver, SAR vehicle, toy, transport 
all over the country, etc.  Please, any thoughts would be very much 
appreciated!
Roland

------------------------------

From: "Seymour, Gareth - Technician" <GSeymour@mp.sihe.ac.uk>
Subject: FW: Info wanted.
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 09:30:00 PST

 ----------
From: Seymour, Gareth - Technician
Subject: Info wanted.
Date: 12 January 1995 09:07
Priority: High

Hi,

Myself and a few other members of the Glamorgan offroad club, Wales, are 
planning an offroading trip to California using San Francisco as the base, 
in May this year.
One of our members, John, has already had maps and other info sent him on 
trails and offroading areas in North and mid Calif. and Nevada. We have had 
a price for the hire of a "Blazer" which is aprox. ?200 all in per week ( we 
are all Land Rover/Range Rover owners and expect to have to put up with 
"foreign" vehicles! ).
I would be grateful if any one in the S.F. area could give us information on 
cheaper / alternative hire companies or any other info on routes/areas. Feel 
free to email me directly or  snail mail to....

Gareth Seymour
2  Cae  Mansel Lane,
Gowerton,
Swansea.
SA4  3HW
South Wales.

Also I came across an adress for offoading in an Internet book but have had 
no success using it. Anyone out there using it ?. Its  ai.gtri.gatech.edu

Thanks Gareth ( 1956 80" L.R., 1974 shortened Range Rover, 1976 Swb Land 
Rover.)

------------------------------

From: "Mr T.stevenson" <gbfv08@udcf.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Range Rover safety etc.
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:34:43 +0000 (GMT)

There have been a couple of articles in the UK papers recently regarding
the safety of Range Rovers in traffic accidents; the Alpine accident and
the one just before Christmas where the vehicle crossed a motorway
central reservation resulting in the deaths of the occupants.

I recently attended a lecture given by a Leicestershire police Road
Traffic Accident Investigations officer. During questions afterwards, he
was asked which vehicle he regarded as providing the best protection for
its occupants in the event of a crash. Although he would not name a make
of vehicle, he did say that in his opinion a vehicle built on a separate
chassis, for example an off-road vehicle, offered the best protection.
The chassis prevents intrusion into the passenger compartment, and the
height of the chassis above the ground means that it will slide over the
top of another vehicle in the event of a collision. In the car park
later, I noticed that he drove away in a Range Rover. You may draw your
own conclusions from this.
With regard to vehicle handling in skids and to really appreciate
Newton's laws of motion, a bit of practise in an (empty) icy car park
can also prove to be very enlightening.
-- 
Tom Stevenson: gbfv08@udcf.gla.ac.uk
University Marine Biological Station, Isle of Cumbrae, Scotland
Tel:(0475) 530581  Fax:(0475) 530601

------------------------------

From: Carl Byrne <SPECBB@CARDIFF.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:12:20 GMT
Subject: Jeep Cherokee vs Discovery

Can anybody add to an 'raging' dispute between my brother and I? He 
owns a '94 Cherokee Limited and I own a '95 spec Discovery (my second 
following one Defender). He slates my Discovery for just about 
everything - fit, performance, comfort etc. I haven't really had a 
good look at his Jeep but have noticed that it is dripping with 
gagets thankfully (in my opinion) lacking in the Discovery. Give me 
something to say to him - or is the Jeep so much better than the 
Discovery as he says.

Please help me defend our good name.

Cheers Carl
UK

Owner of Discovery and 1949 Series I.
Dr.Carl Byrne
University of Wales College of Cardiff,
Wales.
UK.

------------------------------

Subject: plunged vs rolled 
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 06:41:25 -0500
From: William Caloccia <caloccia@sw.stratus.com>

> the remains of a Range Rover that was totally flattened and destroyed in
> plunged 20 meters deep into a ravine and landed on its roof, killing its

hmmm. Unless I've forgotten all my physics, that works out to be about
something to be something like 30m/s downward (63mph) when it hit bottom.
That is a tremendous amount of force.

When we took the '72 pontiac 440 firebird for a swim in Vermont, it only
fell about 3m off the bridge, and the rock left a dimple about 10" deep a
foot to the left of my head. The momentum from the roll-over caused the
engine to twist the frame of the car lengthwise.

Which of the following things does your Rover permanent 4wd owner's manual
tell you not to do at the same time:

    > in broad daylight on dry road.
    > may have had the diff locked

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Range Rover Safety etc
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:07:53 GMT

To add to what Tom has said,its perhaps no coincidence either
that Leicestershire Police also operate two Land Rover 110s
(both V8,I think),at least the Loughborough lot do,which is
part of the same thing.Also that the Range Rover,and latterly
the Discovery,are widely used by UK Police forces for a number
of duties,incuding motorway patrolling.
The local fire service also have a Defender 110,which replaced
a six wheeled abomination (also Land Rover)which no-one wanted to
drive because it had a mind of its own,and didnt want to depart
from the straight and narrow.This is apparently common with six
wheel conversions.
The 110 suffered from the "not me,chief" sydrome as well,but for
a totally different reason.The power steering was *too* good.There
was,I was told no "feel" at all to the steering.In fact the fireman
I was talking to about it said he'd rather have my 11A.I was a little
too slow,I should have taken him up on it!I reckoned there must be
something that could be done about it.He said they had taken it to
the local franchised dealer with no result.I reckoned if they contacted
Land Rover that they'd have a better result.Whether they did or not,I
dont know,but something *was* done,with the result that now *everyone*
wants to drive it!The feedback from the steering is apparently now
jusr right,and they reckon its the best vehicle they've ever had.
This is a 200Tdi.
The problem with UK centre crash bars on motorways is that they seem
to be set up for the average family saloon.As I understand it,the
idea is to prevent a vehicle from getting into the opposite carriageway
but also to stop it bouncing back into its own carriageway.I assume the
idea is to get it to scrape alomg the barrier until it stops.As far as
I can see,a runaway truck would simply go over it,and the same applies
to just about any 4X4,to perhaps a slightly lesser degree.This is due to
the fact that the girders are set low down.
Suffice it to say that Richard Branson,who crashed *his* Range Rover,
maintains that the vehicle saved his life.He reckoned that in any other
vehicle he would have died.He subsequently ordered a goddly number of
them to use as airport shuttles.
As for Sefans comment about a four wheel skid being more dangerous than
a two wheel one,I'm not quite sure what the paper meant.In fact,I'd
hazard a guess that the reporter knew bugger all about it as well.  
They dont usually impress me with their technical expertise.
With a beam axled vehicle,a four wheel *drift* is possible,whether
all four wheels are powered or not.Again,as Tom rightly says,an empty
icy car park will prove most instructive and enjoyable.I've never
managed a four wheel drift with independant front suspension only,
but used to thoroughly enjoy the manoeuvre in my 1931 MG.I hasten to
add at about four in the morning,with *no* other traffic about,and a
nice greasy road surface.Ok,I know,a Range Rover it wasnt,but the
effect was there,and provided suitable intelligence is applied,I'm
sure it can be done,and safely.
That said,there are bound to be situations that even a Range Rover
cant get you out of.Dropping off a cliff is one,and meeting a forty
tonner head on is another.But I still reckon that by and large you
are safer in any of Land Rover's products than you are in anybody
elses,and that goes Series 1 onwards.BUT! I cant say I like the idea
of the proposed monocoque version.

Sorry for the length of this,I didnt mean to ramble on *quite* so much!

Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 08:44:45 -0500
From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Subject: Carl Defends His Disco

Carl asked:     

none
Can anybody add to an 'raging' dispute between my brother and I? He 
owns a '94 Cherokee Limited and I own a '95 spec Discovery (my second 
following one Defender). He slates my Discovery for just about 
everything - fit, performance, comfort etc.  Give me something to say to him 
- or is the Jeep so much better than the Discovery as he says.

Please help me defend our good name.
none

Carl,

Don't say anything.  

In 2 years ask him how many times it's been in the shop for other than 
routine maintenance.

In 5 years ask him what he's going to do about all that rust on the firewall 
in those difficult to reach places (and how many times it has stranded him).

In 10 years ask him whatever happened to that old Jeep he used to own.

In 20 years sell him your Disco and buy a new one.

Baloney

maloney@wings.attmail.com

P.S. - You could ask him how he would engage his front hubs (assuming part 
time 4wd) if he gets stuck in 2wd.  Or, you could take him 4 wheeling.

------------------------------

From: Mr Ian Stuart <IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 12:47:20 +0000
Subject: Re: Jeep Cherokee vs Discovery

> Can anybody add to an 'raging' dispute between my brother and I? He 
> owns a '94 Cherokee Limited and I own a '95 spec Discovery (my second 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> Discovery as he says.
> Please help me defend our good name.
Hell, it's easy -- ask him to go with you to one of wales' off-road 
centres and go round the course.

the Discovery will end up pulling the (stuck) Cherokee at every turn.

I agree that the Cherokee has lots of fancy gadgets and plush leather 
seats, but the ride-comfort and traction of the discovery are vastly 
superior off the road.

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
WWW sites: Work -- <http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/>      
           Play -- <http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~kiz/>
#======================================================================#
Pessimists are often pleasently suprised by life, |Land Rover owners do
optimists find it full of disappointments.        |  it in the mud.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:29:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Jon Humphrey <jh5r+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Zealand Land Rovers -- Advice please!

Keith, there was quite a long discussion a while back on New Zeland Land
Rovers.
It included prices, condition, availability, etc. It seemed to be for
the benefit of those persons wishing to import LR's to the U.S.
Perhaps the person who was sending this information will see your
request and send you some information. I don't remember the name.
Anybody else still have this info?

You lucky dog, I would love to go to NZ.
later
Jon

------------------------------

From: Carl Byrne <SPECBB@CARDIFF.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 15:29:53 GMT
Subject: Overdrive and Series I

Does anybody have experience of fitting an overdrive to a 1600cc 80" 
Series One. I drive a 1949 80" and would like to fit an O/D to reduce 
engine speed. However I don't think that the engine has the necessary 
torque to take full advantage of the device - I would be constantly 
changing gear except on motorways where I rarely drive it anyway.

Any views?

In addition, apart from Superwinch does any other company make O/Ds? 
Toro (made for Bearmach) are no more and the batch that Sanatana made 
were all recalled last year.Dr.Carl Byrne
University of Wales College of Cardiff,
Wales.
UK.

------------------------------

From: Carl Byrne <SPECBB@CARDIFF.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 15:38:31 GMT
Subject: Discovery 300TDI 1995 model

Anybody 'listening' out there owns one of these (must be the '95 
spec model)? I have a few queries with mine and I would like to 
compare notes with another owner? 

Can anybody help?

Regards Carl
 

Dr.Carl Byrne
University of Wales College of Cardiff,
Wales.
UK.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:50:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Jon Humphrey <jh5r+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Extra Fuel Tank

Hey John,
As Mr.Ralph Cramden so tactfully used to say to Alice.
"You wanna go to da MOOON--ALICE?"

A well placed gas tank enhances your chances.

Land Rovers in Space
Jon
>Are you sure it's a good idea to put a gas tank under the seat?
none

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:28:48 -0500
Subject: Leaky Tanks

Rover's have always had a general incontinence problem.  Gas, oil, water, you
name it.  As far as your leaky gas tank goes, I've had to repair my tanks
many times during a 25 year life of sometimes heavy off-road use.  The Rover
tanks are soldered, and very rough off-roading would crack the seams from
time to time.  To repair I would drain & drop the leaky tank and then take it
to a radiator repair shop.  They would clean it, fill it with nitrogen (don't
want them to blow up), unsolder the second skin, then re-solder the seams of
the tank, and re-assemble.  My last tank repair, however, was after Lulubelle
(IIa) had been sitting for about 4 years.  The tanks weren't leaking, but the
gas had turned to black sludge and the inside of the tank was foul.  This
time they cleaned & etched the inside of the tank, and then coated it with
some kind of epoxy.  I understand that this is not a forever cure, since the
epoxy bond is dependent on the condition of the metal it bonds to.  This is
basically a way of burying the problem under a layer of plastic.  Good Luck.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:37:05 -0500
From: Jimmy Patrick <jimmyp@cksp.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Prince of Darkness (chapter 4)

The saga continues. With regards to my Land-Rover not turning off with the
key switch. I got out a trusty test lamp and checked the power to the hot
lead of the alternator. The key switch works, as long as the engine is not
running. When the engine is running, the switch ceases to work. (With the
engine off and the switch off, no light. Switch on=light. So far, so good.
But once the engine is running, there is always a light.) I can't imagine
what the problem might be. I have a new switch here but it is a bit
different and I don't want to replace the old switch until I determine it
is the problem. Since the switch works with the engine not running, I think
the switch works. Maybe the alternator is providing power directly to the
coil somehow. Since the alternator was hooked up wrong in the first place
(no charging light) it could be completely wrong.

Looks like this Saturday could be spent chasing a bunch of little red wires.

Jimmy

Land-Rover; it's not just a vehicle, it's an adventure.

--

--

CKS|Partners                                            0344-382114
Advertising & Marketing Communications            fax   0344-303192
                                                  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:59:44 -0800
From: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: Ramp Travel Index

Sheesh!  Sorry.  I'm so embarrassed. 8*{  I made the comment, regarding the 
Four-Wheeler-of-the-Year article, that no mention was made of Ramp Travel 
Index (RTI). Several of you have been kind (really) enough to point out to 
me that it was right there in front of my eyes (such as they are).  I see it 
now and don't know how I missed it before.  

It was in the data table, alright.  Not hard to see why it was not mentioned 
in the text, as it was rather embarrassing to the other vehicles. ;~]  But 
look at the comparison of front and rear overhangs...

I'd sure like to see the RTI on a Mercedes Unimog, with its 15" of wheel 
travel front and rear and its flexi-frame.  Some pictures I've seen make it 
look like it can cross-axle to about 90 degrees!  That ability, along with 
its 20" wheels, portal axles, front and rear diff locks, and ultra-low 
gearing (I'm talking measure-the-speed-in-feet-per-hour kind of low) make it 
a rock crawler that probably has no equal.  Still rather have a Land-Rover, 
though, most of the time.  'Mogs are not too fun to drive on the road, so I 
hear.  I read about one with 18 speeds forward which still had a top speed 
of only 46 mph!  Basically a tractor.
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[ G.B.Pool(Redwood Vly, CA, USA)Appraiser,R/W Agent,Land-Rover aficionado ]
[ e-mail: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net ** Ph:(707)485-7220 H,(707)463-4265 W ]

------------------------------

From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@qvarsx.er.usgs.gov>
Subject: Land Rover Boutiques
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:48:42 -0800 (PST)

Here's one for the rugged individualist--

Our local Public Radio station this morning carried an item about 
Land-Rover setting up Rover Boutiques in their dealerships to sell 
Rover-related paraphernalia.  Needless to say, they had a lot of fun 
making comparisons with LL Bean and Eddie Bauer.  It also helps explain 
why we've seen reports of the Land Rover Logo Police making raids on 
unauthorized sellers of Rover-badged stuff.  The Beemer crowd is hot on 
the scent of untapped PROFITS.     

In Sacramento, the local Cadillac dealership has taken on Rovers, since 
the supply of 4X4 Cadillacs has been very small.  It'll be interesting to 
see if Cadillac comes up with its own "line-extension".  It boggles the 
imagination.

Walt Swain,  1967 109 Safari SW

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 15:16:44 EST
From: robdav@sunshine.vab.paramax.com (Robert Davis)
Subject: Re:  The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Good luck with the rebuild of your 2.6.
I have a lot of 2.6 parts and over 12 engines.
Call (804)421-3504 of net me if you need anything.
I have 1 spin on adapter left.
R&D

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 15:31:03 EST
From: robdav@sunshine.vab.paramax.com (Robert Davis)
Subject: Re:  The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Morgan Wrote: "gas comes out the rear right seam... any suggestions
on how to patch it... or something to that effect"
Morgan Old Stick:
Spend the coin and buy a new tank.  A lot of them get patched, but
few are fixed long term.  Its common knowledge that patched tanks will
eventually leak (in most cases).
Not to insult you and with all due respect, don't pit a welder near it.
I know a guy who had a tank blow up once that had not been drained and
open for several years before a repair attempt was made.
Jared Silbersher had a spare tank (under seat 12 gal.) that he let me
have, but prospective buyer didn't want.  He will sell it and I could
ship it.  Jareds number is (914) 764-5348 (NY).
Good luck, and would like to more about your non-original rear.
R&D

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:39:00 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: Re: Extra Fuel Tank

OK you guys -- I've now learned that the proper place for fuel tanks
is under the seat...

John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:48:17 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: Re:  Jeep Cherokee vs Discovery

The only thing a Cherokee has over a Discovery is performance on the road
due to its bantam weight. All the rest is utter fiction.

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 15:50:19 EST
From: robdav@sunshine.vab.paramax.com (Robert Davis)
Subject: Re:  The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Hello Everyone:
Several days age I asked about regalia (Land Rover Club: grill badges,
t-shirts, and window stickers).  Got one response fron Ottawa Valley
member: Dixon.  Thanks Dixon.
Anyone else belong to a club with regalia items?
Please take the time to respond!
Thanks, R&D

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:56:16 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: Re:  Ramp Travel Index

Another ststistic that was interesting and not mentioned in the text, just
tabulated at the end, was the breakover angles -- all the US trucks in
the 17 to 19 degree range and the Discovery at 32.

John Brabyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 13:32:33 -0800
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Extra Fuel Tank

In message <9501122039.AA23685@skivs.ski.org> John Brabyn writes:
> OK you guys -- I've now learned that the proper place for fuel tanks
> is under the seat...
> John
none

John, your getting close.  If you have a 88 or 109 two door its under the seat. 
If you have a 109 4 door its under the bed at the rear.  Keep working on it you 
almost have it!

;*)  ;*)  ;*)  ;*)

TeriAnn Wakeman        Large format photographers look at the world
twakeman@apple.com     upside down and backwards     
              
                         
                       

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 00:06:29 +0000
From: Steve Firth <steve@f1rthcom.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re:Range Rover fatality

>It's always tough to have a myth - or illusion - destroyed, but we all have
>to face reality sooner or later, even as Rover owners...
>[snip]
>"This vehicle handles and manoeuvres
>differently from many passenger cars both on and off road [snip]

This is absoutely true, and the Rottman incident is just one of several
reported recently. Others include the famous Richard Branson acciden and
one in my home area where a man watched his family die in the rear view
mirror as his wife following in a Range Rover hopped the barrier into the
face of oncoming traffic.

I think it's naive in the extreme to expect a vehicle in the 1 to 2 tonne
range range with immense wheel articulation and permanent 4WD to handle
like a 750kg road car. Four wheel drives need a different approach to
driving and some experience to drive at the limit. The trouble is, many
drivers don't even seem to know they are at the limit.

In each of the cases above the accidents happened at speed, in treacherous
weather and with drivers who were possibly expecting a Range Rover to
handle like a Merc saloon. It is suggested that Rottman either died of a
heart attack or was fiddling with the diff. lock while negotiating a bend.
In the other cases, the drivers were above the speed limit and got into
situations where they tried to swerve in a vehicle not suited to the
manoeuvre.

Steve Firth, 1981 SIII 109" Landrover Safari.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jan 95 19:57:18 EST
From: "WILLIAM  L. LEACOCK" <75473.3572@compuserve.com>
Subject: ERT

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 22:53:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Range Rover safety etc.

Tom Stevenson recommends...

> With regard to vehicle handling in skids and to really appreciate
> Newton's laws of motion, a bit of practise in an (empty) icy car park
> can also prove to be very enlightening.

Took my SerIII out for a "spin" on a frozen lake a couple of winters ago..
Lots of fun!!  8*}  Until the local constabulary showed up on a snowmobile
and informed me I was being "reckless"... :(  The nerve!

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern) R.I.P.      
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 22:53:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: How good really?

Roland...

First... I'll plead ignorance... what exactly is "SAR"???

As to Land Rovers and off-road... there are two things to consider... The
vehicle *and* the driver. You can have "the best" off road vehicle in the
world, but if you don't know how to drive it, you might as well walk!!

Here's a point to consider. You can take a stock Land Rover with decent
off-road tires and go just about anywhere. *Most* other 4WD vehicles will
probably need to have suspension modifications at the very least to do the
same. 

Why would you want to replace the stock 4 cylinder with a V8?? Granted, the
extra power is nice but not always needed off-road.

A winch is probably the best all-around accessory investment you can make.
Great to have when you *do* get stuck (it happens) and great to have when
you need to move something nasty and you can't get traction. 

Locking diffs are nice but most of us have survived without them. 

If you are considering using your (future) Rover for daily transportation
then ask yourself how mechanically competent you feel you are. The Series
Land Rovers are pretty simple to work on, but if you aren't comfortable with
doing things like pulling off your brake drums (to clean out the mud) or
replacing axel half-shafts after they snap then you should reconsider this
madness!! Or find a good mechanic..

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern) R.I.P.      
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

From: jpappa01@InterServ.Com
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 20:04:59 PST
Subject: Re: 	I'm mad as hell & I'm not going to take it anymore...

I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore...

I'm really getting tired of the press sounding sirens, bells, strobe lights, 
ripping out hunks `o hair everytime a 4WD vehicle is involved in an incident 
where there is loss of life. All of a sudden, these vehicles are lethal, 
unstable, unpredictable, deadly, skitty, ad nauseum...  What about the vast 
majority of auto fatalities that occur each year in essentially low-slung 
sedans? What gives when a couple is flattened; their brains launched out the 
tops of their heads when their Honda Civic blams into a bridge abutment at 80 
mph? Why don't we all of a sudden hear that all vehicles that weigh under 2500 
pounds are unsafe for human consumption?

It really is all so ludicrous. Any vehicle, LAND ROVERS included, will reach 
its limits in handling and occupant protection. When these limits are 
breached, shit happens. If a high center of gravity vehicle is flung into an 
off ramp with acute angles at an excessive rate of speed, then it clearly is 
possible to roll. Likewise in a normal auto - it is liable to go out of 
control via under/oversteer inputs from reactionary driver, or through skid... 
So, what's the hubbub, bub? If a "bullet-proof" Range Rover is rear-ended or 
front ended by a truck with several times its mass - a nasty outcome should be 
no surprise - yes, damn it, its simply physics...

I've really had it. Today there was some dork on "Good Morning America" who 
was lamenting that the Land Rover Discovery and Defender 90 displayed (all of 
a sudden with no empirical data) the worst stability of any SUV sold in 
America! Can you dig this? Another asshole shooting from the hip. We 
continually sell the Discovery on the basis of its relative stability as 
compared with similar vehicles. I routinely get people at a 33 degree sidehill 
in a Defender 90 expressly to demonstrate just how stable the 90 really is. 
There are far, far, far, more fatalities involving "normal-height vehicles" 
than there are 4WDs. I'm really pissed off - it is totally misleading to a 
basically unassuming public - they deserve better. Much as we deride the 
competition, even they deserve better. Remember the 60-minutes torpedoeing of 
the Jeep CJ-7? A basically decent off-roader. A couple of yahoos rolled one 
over for the cameras and bang - unsafe! As a result (good for Land Rover 
sales) we now have the woeful Jeep Wrangler - a truly ghastly contrivance. 
Audi almost went bankrupt because of a handful of clumsy owners and a bevy of 
hungry lawyers. As a result - interlocks for all of us stupid dolts who can't 
tell the difference between the brake pedal and the throttle. Wow, man!

Please do all of us a favor - next time someone challenges your Land Rover as 
unsafe or unstable, suggest that they fling their whatever into a tight corner 
at 60 mph. I just can't believe that this crap is still going on - rather, I 
can believe it. As long as America consumes crappola from an over-eager, 
ratings-conscious, crusading media, then we can expect loose cannon from any 
corner, at any time. Well, I hope that Land Rover's lawyers can beat up CBS's 
lawyers. 

And another thing...

We have managed to procure an additional Aluminum hardtop Conniston Green 
DEF90 at Rover central. Any interest leave me a message at my email or at 
landline 508-650-8822. The last one hung around for about a week.

Take care.

regards
Jim
roverheadus pissedoffbigtimum mediadorkus

jpappa01@interserv.com

------------------------------

From: "T.F. Mills" <tomills@du.edu>
Subject: Re: Jeep Cherokee vs Discovery
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 00:07:24 -0700 (MST)

Carl Byrne asks:
 
< Can anybody add to an 'raging' dispute between my brother and I? He 
< owns a '94 Cherokee Limited and I own a '95 spec Discovery (my second 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
< Discovery as he says.
< Please help me defend our good name.

Funny you should ask.  "4-Wheel and Off-Road" last Sept. did precisely 
such a comparison.  Actually it was a Grand Cherokee (is that the same as 
a Limited?)  Their conclusion:  "this race was neck and neck with a 
classic photo finish.  The way we see it, the grand Cherokee wins by a 
nose--that nose being the difference between its 5.2 liter V8 and 
Discovery's 3.9; the Jeep's greater cargo space; and the intangible 
comfort factor--somehow we just fit into the Jeep a little better.  
Viewed from a slightly different angle--safety features, convenience 
amenities and status-symbol panache--the photo finish would've gone the 
Discovery's way.  We can't recall the last time a duke-out ended this 
close to a draw."  They are identical in gas mileage, but the mag gave 
the Jeep the edge in off-road capabilities.

Thought you might be interested, but certainly don't tell your brother this.

As far as I'm concerned, the Cherokee is uglier than a shark, and I can't 
seriously an objective tester would rate it so highly.

T. F. Mills                                              tomills@du.edu
University of Denver Library  2150 E. Evans Ave.  Denver  CO 80208  USA

------------------------------

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