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From: "T.F. Mills" <tomills@du.edu>
Subject: Re: Camel Trophy 95
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 02:35:26 -0700 (MST)

Dave Place writes:
 
< know where they are located and an address and phone number or FAX number 
< etc.  They didn't always sponsor the Camel Trophy, but I understand that 
< the past 3 or 4 years they have handled all the publicity for the Camel 
< Trophy event.

Maybe I'm imagining it, but I think Worldwide Brands International
(WBI) has sponsored Camel Trophy from the beginning.  

I have searched high and low with all sorts of sophisticated print and
electronic resources at my disposal, and I cannot find an address or
phone number for WBI.  I have established that it is a subsidiary of
RJR Nabisco, and that it has a subsidiary in the UK (Woking), Global
Events Marketing.  WBI is in Brussels, but it does not show up in
directories.  WBI pays all participant expenses in the Camel Trophy
and trials, and markets Camel Trophy-related "adventure" gear (but not
in the US).

There is a Worldwide Brands Inc in Grimbergen, Belgium, but it is a
management consulting service.  (Boechoutlaan 55, Grimbergen 1853, tel
24620267 -- in case anybody thinks it might really be our elusive
friends.)

There is also an RJR-WBI office in Hong Kong.  I can't imagine the
main WBI office moved from Belgium to Hong Kong recently.  (Hong Kong
is moving to Belgium!)

Perhaps somebody near NY would be willing to give RJR a call:
212-258-5600, fax 212-969-9173 (1301 6th Ave, NY 10019).  

I have enlisted the help of librarians in London and Jerusalem.  I'll
let you know if anything turns up.
 

T. F. Mills                                              tomills@du.edu
University of Denver Library  2150 E. Evans Ave.  Denver  CO 80208  USA

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 94 07:46:09 EST
From: "Stefan R. Jacob" <100043.2400@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 2nd Gear pops out

Roy,

If yours is a S.III gearbox you *might* have a problem. If it's a S.II
I'll just relate my own experience:
I fitted a reconditioned S.II transmission (non-syncro) to my 109 seven
years ago. From the very start 2nd gear occasionally popped out when
changing suddenly from decelerating to accelerating, or going downhill in
2nd whith the car pushing. This has been going on like that for 7 years
now, and inspite of often gruelling running conditions and after 60,000 km
it hasn't become worse, and I've gotten used to it. If it pops out
I just put it back in again, and downhill I hold on to the stick. So,
if you want a bit of real "expert advice", I'd say: Carry on driving a
while and see if it gets any worse. If it doesn't, say the magic words
that relieve most minor problems on Land Rovers: *Bugger it*

Stefan
<Stefan R. Jacob, 100043.2400@CompuServe.com>

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 94 07:45:17 EST
From: "Stefan R. Jacob" <100043.2400@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: equipment / chains

 > Can anyone what is the best tire chains to use for the off-road purposes
 > through mud and snow ? (the point where snow tires can't go)

Last Xmas we were in the Austrian Alps with a couple of Land Rovers under
very harsh conditions (heaviest snowfalls since 15 years - and they always
have a *lot* of snow). Always had freshly fallen snow up over our knees.
>From our base camp - a cabin by a lake - we daily made our way up a small
closed winding pass road to about 2300m alt. (not *very* steep, but a
couple of tight hairpins...) to a skiing slope with a disused lift.
The strongest Rover, a Defender 110 TDi with rather aggressive tires
(can't remember which, I *think* they where BFG All-Terrain Track Edge)
drove _up_ the slope trailing 5-6 skiers behind and acted as our ski lift.
All _without_ chains. In fact, none of us had chains. And none of us, even
those with 'normal' tires, had any problems powering up that road through
deep snow. Just put in 2nd low, floor it, and keep going 'till you're
there. IOW, on a Land Rover you *don't need chains in deep snow* .
A different thing is hard, compacted snow 'polished' by traffic (or
skiers), or icy roads. There, nothing beats chains.
(BTW, it was on that occasion that I decided to get a heater replacement;
I constantly had to make stops to scratch off ice - from the *inside*).

Happy snow-ploughing!

Stefan
<Stefan R. Jacob, 100043.2400@CompuServe.com>

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Linguistics
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:25:51 UNDEFINED

."mole-grips"??? eh? Whatzat? Vice-grips maybe??

These used to be called Mole Wrenches. But the animal welfare people got that 
changed when it was found that literalist American tourists were abusing small 
burrowing creatures........

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Just another roadkill on the Information Superhighway
+++++++++++++++++++++++ None-%er #1 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Moss Motors picture 
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 07:23:16 -0800
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>

Michael,

>A side note.... The latest flyer from Moss Motors has an article about
>various events they (Moss) have been to and one of the pictures shows three
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>Rovers". I suspect the picture was maybe at Portland or some place.. Anyone
>got any clues???
	
	That was indeed a snap from the Portland Field Meet this year. Left to
right are Tony and Linda Starbird's perfect Doormobile, Doug Shipman's close to
perfect Doormobile, both from Portland, and then Art Van der Star's ultra cool
Ser lla 109 Fire Truck. This was one of two Rovers that were purchased and did 
yeomans work for an oil refinery up in Alberta, Canada. It's in original condition
and Art even gave us a demo of the 2000 gallon per minute fire pump, throwing a 
supply hose into the nearby pond and shooting a stream for a couple minutes. The 
truck has an original Land Rover trailer made from the rear of a 109 chassis with
a 500 gallon water tank mounted. He really enjoys the rig and loves to talk about
it's history to all who ask.
	As to the three, count em line, we had 105 Land Rover/Range Rovers (only
8 Range Rovers though two were early, 74' and 76', two door models), quite a large
turnout by US standards.
								Rgds
								Mike Fredette
								Portland, Oregon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 10:23:01 EST
From: CXKS46A@prodigy.com (MR ALEXANDER P GRICE)
Subject: Odds 'n' ends

WRT the comments on that miracle substance Waxoyl, it is hard to find in
this country in economical quantities.  Incidentally, it is made by
Finnegan's who also make "Hammerite."  A similar substance is Texaco's
"Flo-Coat" originally intended to rustproof ship's holds.  (Flood the hold,
dump in a barrel of Flo-Coat.  Pump out the water and the stuff sticks to
all the surfaces as the water receedes.)  Alas, Flo-Coat is no longer
available, replaced by "Texaco Rust Proofing Compound L".  It is available
from Texaco jobbers for about $45 for a 35# (5 gallon) pail.  Heating the
tub or thinning with naptha helps in application (suitable flamability
precautions taken, of course).

Another option is the old military stanby "Cosmoline" which is sometimes
available at surplus stores at reasonable prices, though military veterans
may not be able to stand the sight/smell of the stuff after years of
exposure ;-).  3M makes a compound with the curious name of "Body-Schultz".
It comes in handy quart cans that screw onto a spray head.  All of these
products are goopy, nasty substances that stick like baby poop to a
blanket.  They remain somewhat fluid and can "self heal" or "creep" unlike
most undercoatings (Ziebart, et als) that dry hard and brittle.

In other matters, a friend is very keen on purchasing a Discovery.  As he
takes yearly trips to Scotland, he would like to take posession of a
US-spec Disco over there, where the savings on a rental car would more than
pay for the shipping back across the pond.  Are US spec vehicles available
at UK dealers?  I'm assuming that the VAT can be recaptured if the vehicle
is exported, but am unsure of the procedure.  Any suggestions would be helpful.

    *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"-----*
    |                                                      |
    |  Sandy Grice,  Rover Owners' Association of Virginia |
    |  E-Mail: CXKS46A@prodigy.com       FAX: 804-622-7056 |
    |  Voice: 804-622-7054 (Days)  804-423-4898 (Evenings) |
    |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA, 23508-1730 USA   |
    *------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 08:31:00 MST
From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL )
Subject: Diesel 5

I have seen the Mercedes 5 in the new generation
VW Vans and was under the same impression as Jurgen.
The 5 cylinder diesel tech. is all from the boys
and girls at Mercedes.  Wasn't the 5 turbo diesel
the they used in a new gullwing prototype racer
that was used do break a closed course speed and
distance record?  I have heard from some VW folks
that the 5 in the van is a very good engine with
lots of low end power but with a good top end
final speed.  If that is true, I agree that would
be a very nice engine in the Rover.

Roy - Rovers in the Rockies

               You mean it isn`t justifiable homocide
               if you kill a previous owner for what
               they did to your Rover?

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Hess update
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:56:52 EST

Folks-

The Hess family is soon to be back on the road.  A new rim from British
Pacific is on the way.  Thanks much to Robert Davis for his offers to
supply them with one of his, and to Sand Toler (via Robert Davis) for his
offer of the same. (Unfortunately, John didn't check the message in time
before ordering it, but at least the price was decent and it will be
supplied by this afternoon, then thrown into the tyre and tossed on
the hood.)

John is using my guest voicemail mailbox, which he can access using a
toll free number (but it only allows him to send and receive messages
from me, and the toll free number can not be used to dial in directly
to actually speak person to person).  I have two such voicemail guest
mailboxes, and am certainly willing to let any other long-tripping roverites
and roverettes use them for this purpose.....it's a decent way to get
some free advice from me (potentially next to worthless) and you (more
like priceless).

Anyhows....the Hess' are heading for Memphis, then Austin, and have places
to stay in each.  If you see a clean doormobile putt on by with three happy
faces in it flag them down (and drink their beer).  John reports that all
is well, and that the rover only has one oil leak (coming from up high,
and it's motor oil, but not too serious a leak) detected so far.  (Nigel,
a 2.25, has a similar leak from the pressure sensor above the oil filter,
but I am unsure on a euro-6cyl whether or not it could be the same pesky
leak.)

I'll be keeping you posted, and thanks all for your replies.

rd/nige for jhess and co.

ps Todd-sounded from their message that they intend to keep south of Denver,
but thanks much for your offer. 

------------------------------

From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@qvarsx.er.usgs.gov>
Subject: Re: Odds 'n' ends
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:15:05 -0800 (PST)

Sandy Grice raised an issue that must be of considerable interest to a lot
of us-- picking up a *NEW* US spec vehicle in Europe.  The last time this
came up, the thread concluded with the disappointing info that the Rover
folks have had little interest in facilitating European deliveries of
their products.  

But there must be a way! As a group, we seem to thrive on making things
happen that otherwise wouldn't.  How about dealers there or on the
Continent who might be willing to order US spec vehicles?  Back in the
Dark Ages, when still at the University, I met at least one Swiss student
who brought a US spec VW with him. He told me that (at that time, 1972)
Swiss dealers kept a supply of US spec vehicles on hand for people to take
with them and to sell before returning.

With BMW in the picture now, perhaps they will move in that direction.

How about some of those outfitters -Overland Expeditions, Ltd?-  Do they 
have the expertise and willingness to provide this kind of service?  

Walt Swain

> In other matters, a friend is very keen on purchasing a Discovery.  As he
> takes yearly trips to Scotland, he would like to take posession of a
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
> at UK dealers?  I'm assuming that the VAT can be recaptured if the vehicle
> is exported, but am unsure of the procedure.  Any suggestions would be helpful.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 09:15:24 PST
From: Bruce Harding <Bruce_Harding@ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Mystery LR's in MOSS Catalog

Text item: Text_1

The Mystery LR's that are pictured in the latest MOSS news 
letter are from the Portland All British Field Meet.  The 
green doormobile belongs to Doug Shipman, the tan one 
belongs to Tony Starbird and the red LR was a fire engine 
(owner unknown).  These were in the LR 'speciality' area.  
>From the picture you can see the wonderful weather we had 
for the field meet(WET!).

Bruce_Harding@ccm.hf.intel.com
70 Series 88" IIA
57 Triumph TR3
75 Triumph TR6

------------------------------

Subject: Re: rambling incitement to festiv de 
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:44:55 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <01HK2HEXOH7M94EWXE@delphi.com>you write:
> And the other part of this rambling incitement dealt with....
> > > In fact who actually drives their 4WD off road!  I do.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^
> So Ben... you got your SerIII fitted with pontoons?? Aye, Matey!  ;-)

	No.  Even if I did, I wouldn't think of letting it near the
Salton Sea.  The Salton Sea is much, much salier than the ocean.  I don't
want to even think about dipping my frame in that water.  It would ne
worse than driving around the eastern US in the winter.

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications Internation Corporation
 China Lake Naval Air Weapons Center
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:42:04 MST
From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL )
Subject: Overseas Delivery

When the sig. other was looking for a new car, we
ran across a deal the VW has for buying a US spec.
vehicle across the pond and then you drive it for 
a bit and they will ship it to the states for you.
I would agree with Walt that maybe BMW either has
a program like this for their cars.  Might not hurt
to approach a BMW dealer regarding one of their
cars and then ease into, "Well if you can do it on
a beemer, about a Rover?"  With their growing success
maybe corp headquarters would say yes.  All you would
loose will be the time it takes to ask.

Roy - Rovers in the Rockies

                   You mean Road and Track did a 1/4 mile
                   acceleration test on a Rover and they
                   are still waiting for the results?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:21:36 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: Re: Odds 'n' ends

Re picking up new vehicles in Scotland, I believe you will find the retail
prices in the UK to be higher than in the US.

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 10:23:44 PST
From: brabyn@skivs.ski.org (John Brabyn)
Subject: Re: rambling incitement to festiv de

Indeed the Salton Sea area has some great four wheeling areas -- I've explored
some on the western side in the Anza Borrego Desert State Park which are neat.

John Brabyn
89RR

------------------------------

Subject: Re: equipment 
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 10:21:25 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <199411300553.AA03141@crl7.crl.com>you write:
 
> >       The rule of thumb is 2.5 times vehicle weight.  So for an 88 a winch
> >with a 8000 lb stall would be appropriate.

> So that means for my 4000lb 109", a 10,000lb winch would be appropriate.  Is 
> there anything bad about getting too big (strong?) a winch?  That is, would I
> be a wicked, wicked person if I got a 12,000lb winch instead?  Should I not 
> plan on being able to swap one winch between my 88" and 109"?  Thanks in 
> advance!

	10,000lb stall is the number that I've heard for 109s.  There is 
nothing wrong with having a stall weight greater than 10,000 lbs for your
109 or on a 88.  The 2.5 times vehicle weight is a minimum recommendation.

	If you want to buy one winch and swap it between Rovers, you'll
have to buy two mounting kits.  On my Rover, the mounting plate is welded to
my bumper.  To take the winch off, I need to disconnect the batter leads and
undo 4 bolts.
	
	One thing to note.  When the vender states that a winch has a 8000 lb
stall, that is for cable on the first wrap on the drum.    The winch is only
able to put out a certain amount of torque.  Looking at this from the
physics side, Torque = force x distance.

	So if we look at the spool of cable on your winch, the distance for the
equation is from the center of the spool.  So as the distance from the
center increases the amount of force that can be applied decreases.

	On my Warn 8000 lb winch, the spool radius (from memory) is about
two inches.  The cable is about 3/8 to 1/2 inch.  So every wrap increases
the distance from the center of spool by about 20%.  So if I could expect
a 8000 lb stall on the first wrap, I would see a 6400 stall on the second
wrap and a 5100lb stall on the 3rd wrap.  (my ~100 foot cable takes 3 wraps to
be fully spooled.)

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications Internation Corporation
 China Lake Naval Air Weapons Center
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

Subject: Re: rambling incitement to festiv de 
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 10:36:36 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <9411301823.AA00200@skivs.ski.org>you write:
> Indeed the Salton Sea area has some great four wheeling areas -- I've explore
> some on the western side in the Anza Borrego Desert State Park which are neat

	On the Northeastern shore, there is an area which is designated a 
4WD area.  Lots of trails criss-crossing each other, some of which turn quite
adventurous when you realize that they were made by motorcycles.  There are
a number of washes that you can drive up.  I've seen a lot of people camping
there, but I don't know if it is legal.  The area is also heavily impacted
by the motorcyles, ATVs and 4x4s because fairly few of these people tread 
lightly.

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications Internation Corporation
 China Lake Naval Air Weapons Center
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 11:45:03 PST
From: Brad Krohn <Brad_Krohn@ccm2.hf.intel.com>

Text item: Text_1

Michael writes:

> The latest flyer from Moss Motors has an article about various events 
> they (Moss) have been to and one of the pictures shows three (count 
> 'em) Land Rovers! Two Dormobiles and a fire appliance of some sort. No 
> details and the caption only says something about "three modified Land 
> Rovers". I suspect the picture was maybe at Portland or some place.. 

Haven't seen the picture, but I think you're right about being the ABFM 
here in PDX. The Moss "motor home" was situated just opposite a group of 
Landies, including Tony Starbird's Doormobile and the former oil company 
firefighting rig out of Canada.

======================================================================= 
"ROVER? WHO DRIVES IT?"                     Brad_Krohn@ccm.hf.intel.com 
"That would be telling." -The Prisoner              '69 IIA 88" Bug-Eye 
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 12:04:38 -0800
From: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: 2 Dormobiles & 1 fire tender

Michael, you asked:

>A side note.... The latest flyer from Moss Motors has an article about
>various events they (Moss) have been to and one of the pictures shows three
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>Rovers". I suspect the picture was maybe at Portland or some place.. Anyone
>got any clues???

Yes, I have.  Portland All-British Field Leak, Labour Day Weekend, 1994.  
Moss was there, so were my son Bennett and I (and a number of other 
Net-Rovers).  I took a photo of these and hopefully you will see it (along 
with others) in the Winter issue of Aluminum Workhorse.  Since I just got my 
Fall issue, I assume the Winter issue will arrive about three months hence.

BTW, you never did clue me in on the proper pronunciation of your unusual name.

Regards
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[ Granville Pool (Redwood Valley, CA) Appraiser, R/W Agent, LR aficionado ]
[ e-mail: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net ** Ph:(707)485-7220 H,(707)463-4265 W ]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 15:05:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Marc Kruithof <mkruitho@FLASH.LakeheadU.CA>
Subject: Waving

Well now since you complain that no one waves at you i will toss in my two
cents. Think Again !!! i wave to another Land Rover i see and just about
everyone i give the thumbs up to or waves back ! here is something that i
find anoying though why do people mistake my '52 jeep with aluminum hard
top for the ever dispopular Toyota Land Cruiser ? my little sister even
thought that a toy car of a Land Rover was my jeep. A lot of you kind and
generous people don't seem to approvce of Jeeps. i agree to a point with
you when jeep stopped producing the CJ-3's and CJ-2's they lost a strong
and beautiful breed. i own a military M38 ( military version of the
CJ-3's) but i also have an appreciation for the exquisite trucks that do
not have trouble following me up a 60% incline (first low = 44.19:1) and
seeing as how i have seen few but the Land Rover do the same you can
guarantee that i have a place for them. I have started the restoration of
'66 international Scout and still keeping my eyes out for a decent looking
Land Rover to add to my small but growing collection.

Marc Kruithof
Classic 4bys are the best !!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:44:00 -0500
From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Subject: Fall Gearbox

I just got the latest issue of The Gearbox and Sandy's done a great job 
again.  It was amusing to see Ben Smith on the back cover in mid teeter on 
the totter with Sandy looking on (better cut down on the beer Sandy, you'll 
be giving Uncle Mike a run for his money before long :-) ).

Ben got a nice shot of the Disco going through the stream/gully on the cover 
and it was quite a treat to see myself on the axle twister on page 2.  Nice 
shot, Keith (could I borrow the negative?  I'll get it back to you).

Among other useful articles by Bill C. and Uncle Mike and others, was Russ's 
pompous tale of dancing and walking down the aisle with Brookiekins.  Good 
lord, Sandy, did we have to read about it twice? :-)

It's not too late to send Sandy $15 for an annual subscription to a very 
worthwhile club newsletter.

Bill

maloney@wings.attmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 12:52:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Morgan Hannaford <morgan@nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: Waxoyl equivalents?

O.K. you asked for it.

I looked on a can of LPS and copied this down:

LPS 3 Heavy-Duty Rust Inhibitor
-soft waxy film
-stops rust and corrosion
-heavy duty protective coating
-up to two years protection

**penetrates to replace moisture and dries to a soft, transparent
waxy film, which protects for up to two years.  Provides anti-seize
coating and non-slinging heavy-duty lubrication.

**non-conductive, safe on fabric, rubber and paint.
Authorized by USDA for use in meat and poultry plants.
easily removed with a degreaser

Ingedients: (get out your chem. 1A text)
Aliphatic hydrocarbon, petrolium oil, Dipropylene glycol monomethyl ether

Comes in 6oz.& 11oz. spray(CO2 charged), or 1gal., 5gal.,& 55gal. bulk.

Manufactured by:
LPS Labs, Inc.
Tucker, GA 30085-5052
1-800-241-8334
Made in USA

NOTE:  I have no association with this company other than I have 
purchased several cans and found that they effectively stopped the
rot on my door frames; water now beads up on the bare metal and rolls
off.  I bought the stuff at Orchard Supply Hardware, near the 90wt.
gear oil aisle.

If anyone has a waxoyl jug handy, let's compare ingredients.

Ciao piscao,

Morgan Hannaford
U.C. Berkeley
'69 IIA 88"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 12:59:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Morgan Hannaford <morgan@nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: equipment / chains

I went snow-boarding last year up in the sierras.  Chains were 
required on I-80, there were signs all along warning that if you
don't have them GO BACK HOME.  About 2ft of snow had fallen the night
before and it was still coming down.  I saw 4Runners and Pathfinders
pulling over to put on chains, I didn't have any 'cause I was driving
a Land Rover.  I come to the check-point where the CHP and CalTrans
makes sure vehicles are equiped to go through the Donner Summit including
talking to drivers of ill prepared cars.
I pull up, and they just chuckled and waved me through.

Morgan Hannaford
U.C. Berkeley
'69 IIA 88"

On 30 Nov 1994, Stefan R. Jacob wrote:

>  > Can anyone what is the best tire chains to use for the off-road purposes
>  > through mud and snow ? (the point where snow tires can't go)
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 27 lines)]
> Happy snow-ploughing!
> Stefan
> <Stefan R. Jacob, 100043.2400@CompuServe.com>

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Fall Gearbox 
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 12:59:06 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <winPMXSTAR-2.2.1b-maloney-XYXYXYXYXY-2354>you write:

> Ben got a nice shot of the Disco going through the stream/gully on the cover 
> and it was quite a treat to see myself on the axle twister on page 2.  Nice 
> shot, Keith (could I borrow the negative?  I'll get it back to you).

	That's funny, I remember taking the photos, butI don't recall
sending them to Sandy.  It must have been when I was moving.  Everything
is a blur from then.  I wonder if I ever mailed the photos of the
Bay State Rovers meet to the club.  Hmmm.

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications Internation Corporation
 China Lake Naval Air Weapons Center
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Waxoyl equivalents?
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 16:12:13 EST

Morgan saiz LPS is
> **non-conductive, safe on fabric, rubber and paint.
> Authorized by USDA for use in meat and poultry plants.
> easily removed with a degreaser

Guess that means I can use it in my hair!!
              
	 **:>

	 rd/nige

ps I'll check on the ingredients tonight

pps what's the cost??  The waxoyl was $30ish a can from Moss Motors.
(and a can is a half gallon)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:10:13 -0500 (EST)
From: "Hal A. Lightwood" <halightw@FLASH.LakeheadU.CA>
Subject: Imposing Winch & Starter Problems

I received the Rovers North Newsletter today, and noticed a familiar name 
from this list had the "most imposing winch". (Dixon Kenner)  Very nice! 

Now, in my rover, I seem to have a problem with my starter coming loose 
all the time, and jamming into my flywheel resulting in me having to 
remove the starter and put it back on every few days to correct the 
problem.  This is slightly inconvienient, and getting tiresome.  
Actually, this is more than slightly inconvenient, it is very very very 
annoying.  Why am I plagued with this problem??  

Hal A. Lightwood <halightw@thunder.lakeheadu.ca>	1972 SERIII 88"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 16:39:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Jon Humphrey <jh5r+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Waxoyl equivalents?

Hey Russ,

>Guess that means I can use it in my hair!!

Sure, you can keep one of the 11oz sprays in the rover for those quick
touch ups on a bad hair day.
I just got a price of $4.70/11oz.spray, so it's perfect for pocket or purse.
Later
Jon

------------------------------

From: "Walter C. Swain" <wcswain@qvarsx.er.usgs.gov>
Subject: Re: equipment / chains
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 14:21:12 -0800 (PST)

Morgan offered this uplifting observation.  And I thought those grad 
students at Cal just worked all the time...
> I went snow-boarding last year up in the sierras.  Chains were 
> required on I-80, there were signs all along warning that if you
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> talking to drivers of ill prepared cars.
> I pull up, and they just chuckled and waved me through.

Just so nobody thinks that California has been transformed into the land
of reason, let me offer a contrasting story.  Not everybody is as willing
as those CHP and CalTrans folks to let these little exceptions get by.  

In February '93 I was up at Yosemite, going from the Valley to Wawona. 
It was after dark, and there was a little packed snow and ice on the road; 
the Park Rangers were enforcing an absolute "no chains, no go" edict. 
Apparently they were taking no chance that they would be held accountable
for any visitor's stupidity.  I guess we were lucky that they let us on
the road at all.  After all, it was still possible for somebody, with
chains, to spin out and hurt themselves, holding the National Park Service
liable for not keeping the road free of ice and snow during the wettest
winter in seven years.   

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 21:37:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Imposing Winch & Starter Problems

Hal sez...

> Now, in my rover, I seem to have a problem with my starter coming loose 
---snip---
> annoying.  Why am I plagued with this problem??  

Bad Karma???

Seriously... you say the starter is coming loose and jamming into the
flywheel?? The whole starter?? There are two bolts holding it in.. Hmmm...
Bolts come in from the flywheel housing..through the starter flange..
lockwashers and nuts..
Only thing I can think of is either you haven't tightened the nuts enough or
maybe the lockwashers are flattened out and don't lock anymore.

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern)       
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 21:37:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 2 Dormobiles & 1 fire tender

Thanks to all who have cleared up this...

Granville wrote...

> Michael, you asked:
> >A side note.... The latest flyer from Moss Motors has an article about
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> >three
> >(count 'em) Land Rovers! Two Dormobiles and a fire appliance of some
---snip----
> Yes, I have.  Portland All-British Field Leak, Labour Day Weekend, 1994.  
> Moss was there, so were my son Bennett and I (and a number of other 
> Net-Rovers).  I took a photo of these and hopefully you will see it (along

I think Mike Fredette said there were 105 Rovers there.. That's a lot of oil
leaks!  :) And Moss only had a picture of three...  Harrumph! Obviously,
they haven't a clue about what is *really* fun to own... 

> BTW, you never did clue me in on the proper pronunciation of your unusual
> name. 
> Net-Rovers).  I took a photo of these and hopefully you will see it (along
> >three
SMITH...    hehehehe  No really, the American bastardization of it sounds
like LOY-OH-DEE-CEE with the accent on DEE. 

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern)       
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

Date: 30 Nov 94 22:10:04 EST
From: "Stephen O'Hearn" <72700.3262@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hi-Lift on Defender

> I can assume that on the U.S. defender with the Air Bags( the one
> in the steering wheel) it is worse.

If there's an air bag in that steering wheel it's news to me. The
Hi-Lift should work just fine on the front bumper if placed under
one of the two mounts to the frame rails. As with using the rear
hitch mount, any Hi-Lift use can be dicey, front or back. Works
great but you gotta watch out.

I'm pretty sure that big pad in the steering wheel is just that.
Rather unfortunate too as the overseas-spec units have a nice LR
logo on the centre cap.

Stephen O'Hearn
'94 Defender

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Waxoyl ingredients
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 0:08:09 EST

Ok Morgan,

Here it is.  Finnigan's Waxoyl, The Original Rustproofing (or so it's claimed).
Gosh I love the smell of this stuff.

and the ingredients are......uh, not......they're naaa...not, nope not here.
Gheeze, how do they get away with it??  Is there no patent protection?  Too much
patent protection??  Hmmm.

The package claims "it's a thick, waxy fluid saturated with a very powerful
rustkiller"...that supposedly contains..."rust-inhibiting molecules that cut
through films of oil, grease, and dirt in seconds and cling to metal
surfaces"....which... "unlike chemical inhibitors used in ordinary rustproofers,
stay active indefinately."  Also claims it has the ability to creep and that it
is effective against multi-metal corrosion.

It's thick and waxy all right.  Doesn't spray worth a damn until you heat it up
(in hot water-it IS flammable) or dilute it.  Looks yellowish with pale wax in
it when "gelled" at room temperature (my kinda room temps, anyway), and when
heated it just looks yeller-like a dilute citronella candle (or don't you folks
have bugs, neither?).

hmmm.  Wonder what this rustkiller is.  If "unlike a chemical inhibitor", then
what is it?  Wax??  Yet another corn syrup product??  Not from mumslnd.  Maybe
they mean unlike *most* or *all other* rust inhibitors, maybe it's just more
stable and less prone towards decomposition from air oxidation, uv light, bad
gas (oooPH), and good ol' electrolyte ridden water.  It's a concept-could be...I
gotta look it up.

This creep stuff....could be wax, I suppose.  Wax wouldn't be in the name if it
wasn't there.  Multi-metal corrosion stopper?  Maybe only 'cause it's effective
against *all* corrosion on account of the fact that it seals out water so well,
and not because the rustkiller or some other ingredient is especially effective
against galvanic conduction.  Hell, maybe wax has everything to do with it.
Maybe wax seals in and protects the rust inhibitors-any ol' rust inhibitors-from
the nasties of nature and does all the work.  I know, I'll taste it.  Gotta be
able to taste wax.....There's ah, nope...no warnings on the label...says it's
just like sprayin' roses...I put it in my hair, knowingly....ok.....

Oh, man, yuck.  How am I ever gonna get this taste outa my mouth?  Where's the
Scotch?

Just can't trust these outa-merica labels.  Don't you folks got no manners?
There isn't a warning on this package that tells me not to feed this to my dog,
cat, horse, or my kids (if I have any, I dunno), or not to eat it myself.  Like
pushin' pills on a baby.  It *does* tell me not to put it in my eyes, and to
keep it out of the reach of children, but I drink stuff like that.  How do you
folks get away with this???  Don't got no legislaaation?  Too much??

(can you understand now why most americans are required to wear seatbelts?  it's
a wonder they let us drive at all.)

I do know that the stuff is impressive.  I sprayed two entire cans, non-diluted,
on Nigel's underbelly (goochy, goochy, goo) and framerails for the first time
about a month ago.  Sixty bucks worth.  Overkill.  It could have been diluted
and would have sprayed much easier if it had.  Prior to that I used a
90wt/kerosene mix.....made quite the mess, and it didn't last forever (tell that
to  the DEC).  It was cheap, but it dripped off and only areas within reach of
my various self-lubrication devices (standard features on series models)
remained well coated.  This waxoyl is on like glue, everywhere, with nothing
under it, and it ain't goin' nowhere.  As time goes on and the remaining solvent
in it evaporates, it seems to slowly spread, and not spread thin but kinda
thicken.  Hunkerin' down for winter.  My axle housings and springs, previously
rusting on the surface, have a lasting glow I could only have gotten-but never
kept-with a fresh paint job.  Everything underneath finally looks as it is-fresh
and lubed and well maintained.  I'm so happy.  Nigel is so psyched he popped
himself right outa gear the other day, backed his butt on down a slope and into
a phone poll, just to match the dent the NYC cabbie put into the other side.
Spunky boy.

A 2.5L "tin" (another one for the glossery-it's a can, dammit) of Waxoyl can be
bought with the pump, wand, and extension tip, which is just a hose with a
fitting for the wand with a nail in one end (but very good for frame rails) for
just under $50 US.  That's around what I paid at Moss Motors.  Replacement 2.5L
tins go for about $25-30.  Kinda expensive, but worth every dime.  Also don't
forget, you can use it in your hair, but it makes lousy toothpaste.

cheers all,
rd/nigel

ps Not I nor anybody who pretends to be me neither supports nor dispells
nothin'.  That should cover it.

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Imposing Winch & Starter Problems
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 0:11:56 EST

> Hal sez...
> > Now, in my rover, I seem to have a problem with my starter coming loose 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> ---snip---
> > annoying.  Why am I plagued with this problem??  

Mike replies:

> Seriously... you say the starter is coming loose and jamming into the
> flywheel?? The whole starter?? There are two bolts holding it in.. Hmmm...
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> Only thing I can think of is either you haven't tightened the nuts enough or
> maybe the lockwashers are flattened out and don't lock anymore.

these bolts are studs, yes?  Not stripped (nor is the bell housing) are they?

maybe it is Bad Karma.  You been good lately?

rd/nige

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 00:11:00 -0500
From: Andrew Steele <ad158@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject: Snow Plow Info - Thanks

Michael,

Thanks for the dimensions.  I think the frame mount on the Chevy will work w/
very minor modifications on a Rover.  By the way, if anyone is interested, I
may also have a lead on a in stock new mounting kit at a Western Plow dealer
here in Dayton.

Now, to find the Rover.....

Andrew
Dayton, OH
87 RR

P.S.  Thanks to everyone who responded.

                        ---
                    ---/   |
                ]--|O~~~~~O~      

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 22:37:23 -0700 (MST)
From: James Spyker <jspyker@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: Hybridizing

I am considering turning the Series IIA into a hybrid. Anyone know where 
to get a cheap '90 or Range Rover chassis to play with.

Also, has anyone in N.A. installed a non Rover deisel into their Rover 
and what type of motor and costs were associated.

For people who don't like the cold, the minus 20C weather in Edmonton 
hasn't slowed Camo down, the only thing I'll need is a block heater for 
-40 (any suggestions on what is best).  The arctic heater actually warms 
me up when the engine is warm but a muff on the radiator is needed for the
highway. 

The Rover will ahve to get used to cold and snow when I take up residence 
in the territories in the summer.

Happy roving

James Spyker  196? SIIA

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 

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