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Date: 13 Oct 94 03:13:09 EDT
From: Leslie from Florida & Liverpool <100042.254@compuserve.com>
Subject: TO ALL: Reliability of Land Rovers, etc

 I figure that all of you out there can give some unbiased advise
 about the reliability of older land rovers to Shel- a newcomer
 to the LRO digest, so I have forwarded a recent message of his.

 -------------------------------------------------
 FORWARDED MESSAGE - Orig: 11-Oct-94  20:00:44
 Subject: #268276-Land Rover Defender - Msg Number #268760
    From: Shel Belinkoff - SF,CA 76177,3361
      To: Leslie Stutsman 100042,254
   Forum: CARS  Section: 14 - Trucks, Vans, 4x4s
 -------------------------------------------------

 Thanks for the information about the LR's that you import. I don't know much
about the older LR's, although I am somewhat familiar with them. I used one
briefly about 20-years ago - it was a LWB (109") witha Safari Roof. I really
enjoyed it.

 I like the looks of the older LR's, but am concerned about reliablity. When I
go offroad, I tend to get into places that are well off the usual track -
sometimes in areas where I've not seen anyone for a few days. Most of my
driving isn't too difficult, but about once a month or so I get into some
pretty difficult terrain - snow, mud, very rocky trails where I've scraped my
skid plates or dinged a differential, by way of example.

 I think I would prefer a longer wheelbase model for added comfort and
carrying capacity on longer trips. My current 4x4 has a 125-inch wheelbase,
and, while I've had to jockey around in some situations, it gets me pretty
where I want to go.

 Tell me a bit about the drive train, limited slip differentials, ground
clearance and power. Can these things cruise comfortably at 70-mph or better?
How large are the largest engines?

 I've joined the LRO list on the 'net, but thus far haven't seen anything that
has given me much detail on these vehicles.

 The prices I've seen quoted in your messages seem reasonable, but I don't
know enough about the units or their value to make any further judgements. Any
help from you would be greatly appreciated.

 Thanks!

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: A bit of a diesel emergency
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 10:31:18 BST

Mike,
You appear to have pretty well covered the possibilties,here,but
there is an ananswered question.Does the thing smoke?If so,what
colour is the smoke?Also,were the injectors replaced by new,or
reconditioned ones,and if the latter,who set them up?
Some ideas(pretty way out some of them,but you've gone and nicked
all the simple ones:-)).
Check that the spill system is working OK,from injectors back to
tank for excess fuel,in other words,is the spill pipe clear?
Remember that the distributor pump *will* work if set up 180 deg.
out of true,but not well.Worth another look,perhaps.
Has the gearbox got oil in it,or conversely,does all appesr to be well
with it even if it has?
If the vehicle has free-wheel hubs,are these disengaged?
Is the engine overheating?
Have you got the special tool for setting the dist pump timing?This takes
up the play in the drive gear and tells you where to set the moveable
pointer on the block,so that you can line up the indicator groove on the
pump flange when you replace the pump.
This one is far out.Has the thing got itself into 4WD.Unlikely,I grant
you,and I'd expect somewhat different symptoms if it had,like spring
wind up on tarmac,but in view of the situation,perhaps worth a look.
Try also checking the tracking of the front wheels,a duff TRE could
produce extra rolling resistance.
The only other thing I can think of at present,which will make your
hair go white(if you havent already pulled it all out)is that one of
the hot spots in the head is loose.They are aluminium inserts,pressed
and pegged in place.But you've got to take the head off to see them.
A loose one would upset the gas flow,and combustion events.
Is the throttle linkage operating OK,or has the maximum demand screw
worked itself loose,limiting throttle opening.
I'd *love* to know how the guy manages to cruise a 109" at 65mph.Wouldnt
you Dale?
Hope this helps,keep us in the picture,stay in touch.
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:34:37 -0400
From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Subject: Book Review

(I offer my apologies if this is old news).  A few weeks back I received a 
survivalist catalog in the mail (Why, I don't know.  I seem to be surviving 
quite well, thank you).  I doubted there would be anything of interest inside 
but proceeded to thumb through it until I saw a book with a guess what on the 
cover... an SAS Pink Panther.  I just had to order this book.  The book is: 

The Visual Dictionary of Special Military Forces 
Dorling Kindersley, Publisher 
$14.95 US 

It's really pretty interesting with lots of spy stuff including pipe/zip 
guns, zippo lighter cameras, and hankerchiefs that turn into maps when soaked 
in urine.  This explains why my fellow OVLR members seem to consume so much 
brewski.  It's not because they like getting toasted.  They slurp down the 
suds because they have to hose down their hankies to be able to find their 
way back across the border. :-)  Oh, that reminds me, never ask to borrow the 
hankerchief of an OVLR member (unless you're lost). ;-D  (Dixon & company up 
at fourplay.nepal have been AWFUL QUIET lately.  Is it igloo construction 
time already :-) ?) 

A full two pages are devoted to the Pink Panther.  All of the details on the 
vehicle are identified (such as "Pneumatic Tire" and "Gear Lever" - I'll be 
sure to use this as a reference during my next oil change).  It's the best 
look I've ever gotten of the vehicle, and for me it was worth the $14 and 
change to add it to my Rover book library. 

Bill 

Wayne NJ USA 

maloney@wings.attmail.com 

------------------------------

From: marcus@dcs.qmw.ac.uk
Subject: Front chassis legs
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:03:44 +0000 (BST)

Does anyone have any experience of replacing front chassis legs on LWB Land 
Rovers?

The left front on my 1970 Station Wagon has cracked 3/4 of the way around, 
just forward of the crossmember and I need to replace it this weekend.

Legs are readily available and the task was covered in the very first issue of 
LRW, but any additional comments or advice would be welcomed.

Marcus.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:00:53 -0400
From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Subject: NJ British Car Show Saturday

This Saturday, October 15, in Dover NJ, an MG Marque Day will be held at Moss 
motors.  All British cars are invited (201-361-9358).  I'll be there around 
9:00am (it gets crowded really early) with my muddy 88 (though not as muddy 
as Ben's).  There are usually plenty of vendors with parts for all sorts of 
British vehicles.  If the T-Shirt folks are there, I may have them screen 
their large image of the 109 wagon on the back of my Ottowa and Bay State 
sweatshirts.   Mike Lodice, do you have a Moss Motors catalog for your 
Triumph?  If not, I'll pick one up for you.  Ben, if you dawdle enough 
preparing for your move, you could pull your starter and see if you could 
match it up with one of the vendor's starters.  If you can't make it, I'll 
pick up a Jag catalog for your dad and drop it off.

See ya there... maybe.

Bill

maloney@wings.attmail.com

------------------------------

Date: 13 Oct 94 11:39:27 EDT
From: "Stefan R. Jacob" <100043.2400@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: A bit of diesel emergency

Mike Fredette solicited

 >        Ok folks, heres our chance to earn our bread and
 > butter. A very nice couple from Austria is here in North

... *very* strange (I mean the diesel symptoms, not the Austrians);
but I'll have a go at it anyway:

Considering most other things have been checked, maybe the fuel pump is
doing less than its share of work. Overhaul it, or test-wise replace it
with a more powerful electric pump, like from a Range Rover or the old
6-cyl. and see what happens. Or, maybe the fuel linings between tank
and fuel pump have air seeping in somewhere? Inserting a piece of
transparent tubing just before the fuel pump could help to reveal this
problem; perhaps after a while you will see small bubbles making their
way up towards the pump. In that case, all previous 'bleeding' (ouch!)
whould have been in vain once the bubbles make it to the pump diaphragm.
Or perhaps the pump itself is sucking air from the crankcase through a 
faulty diaphragm. The air leak in the lining could even be _inside_ 
the tank!
If this doesn't reveal anything, I pass.

Stefan
<Stefan R. Jacob, 100043.2400@CompuServe.com>
LROC of Hessen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 09:06:58 -0700
From: jimmyp@netcom.com (Jimmy Patrick)
Subject: based in UK now.

As I mentioned a while back, I have moved over to the UK for a while. It is
definately Land-Rover heaven. Back in California I might see one or two
Land-Rovers in a month (except for Range-Rovers). Now I see many every day.
the discovery must have done very well here over the last couple of years,
there are tons of them on the road. So, I am going to try to find a
Land-Rover and bring it back with me.

Last night on channel 4 they showed one of the Land Rover adventures. These
are 4 minute long documentaries about land rovers and some recognizable
british personalities who tested them. Last nights was about Vermont. They
took Lord Lichfield (a photographer who is famous for the pirelli calendar
I think) and a few other people to visit Vermont.

It is very soft sell commercial. (I actually wondered why they showed that
black Ford Explorer driving around until I realized that it is the new
Range Rover.) These tapes are excerpts from some live shows that LR
produced for a target 50,000 of their best customers. They actually bought
a TV studio with satellite capability to show Land Rover TV at dealers
around the world.

They are going to try to produce 2 hours of programming a week to beam to
their dealers. Interesting? Now those of you with dishes in your back
yards.....

I will keep you all posted on the search. If there are any Britons who know
of any LRs available, let me know. Or if any of you belong to a local LR
club, let me know about that too. I am located in Berkshire county.

Bye for now.

Jimmy Patrick
jimmyp@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:02:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven M Denis  <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU>
Subject: diesel problem

Two thoughts (then my yearly supply is used up)

1. Crank....is is possible that the crank has gotten out of phase?
if it was overhauled and they use a petrol crank,all Toledo will break 
out...the endfloat on the crank will effect the timing.....

2. Camshaft...or general lifter,rocker,pushrod stuff....one overrev can 
kill some of these speed sensitive parts...if they were pushing engine 
oil into the pump,that could have cause an over rev....also...the pumps 
will leak diesel into the sump,but to put engine oil in the pump would 
require pressure...and just *where* did that pressure come from you ask?
Blow by from the rings?......this alone can cause the low power...and if 
the seal was really bad,you would have started by draining diesel into 
the sump...actually directly on the drive gear and cam....are we starting 
to see a possible commection here?...well not so fast batman....I think 
the oil in the injector pump came,and is still coming from the defective 
lift pump which cannot develop enough pressure to keep up with the 
continueous power requirements of the engine at full power (yeah,full 
power,*that's* a joke eh?) and the distributor pump starves for fuel.....
"AH!,I'ts the pump then!"......I never said that exactally now did I!
it could be the cam lobe that acuates the pump lever.....remember that 
bath of not so slipery diesel/oil mix "lubricating*the cam ?....sigh....
Ok...here's what I'd do.....
Load this thing down in the indrect gears at full power...do the canadian 
thing and tow a wheel-less SAAB about or something...this will *prove* 
wheather it is a drivetrain problem..if the power drops off during 
continuous full power in the lower gears,It's fuel.....if it dosen't the 
engine may have mechanical problems that do not allow it to develope the 
power it once had..hence no top speed....
I'd change the lift pump straight off...this will give them a spare if the 
don't have one already.....then....I'd change the cam..and really really 
inspect everything else.....
the lift pump *is* different on a diesel! do not install a petrol pump!
Did the pump shops replace the transfer pump end plate on the distriutor 
pump?...the originial piece is aluminum and wears very quickly...the new 
piece is a Bi-Metal affair that should last a long time..
also......do we have good fuel...if they picked up fuel in california,it is
*much* different than the stuff they are used to running ...most people 
report better running on this stuff.....but it would figure that in a 
Rover.......

back to work

steve......

"HEY! NICE JEEP,MISTER!"..........."Look,Kid,it's a ..Oh never mind..."

"NOTAJEEP"-1967 109 Station Wagon          Steven M. Denis
"        "-1957 107 Station Wagon          PO Box 61
"        "-1964 109 Pickup                 Erieville,New York USA
"        "_1967 109 NADA SW                13061

------------------------------

Subject: The fourth tool. 
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 19:17:50 -0400
From: William Caloccia <caloccia@sw.stratus.com>

All right, by now you'd have to be a hermit not to recognize that 
the three tools in life are Gaffers (or Duct) Tape, Dental Floss or
Bailing Wire (depending on application), and Wire Ties.  However, this
evening while attempting to change the R/Rs clutch slave cylinder, we
discovered the need for a fourth tool.

Well, as expected the unit was removed rather easily, barring the pipe,
but that was just the usualy pesky and tedious undooing of the pipe fitting.
Following that the new unit was put in place, and I was having some
difficultly lining up the bolts, so I decided to remove them, and the unit,
so that I could clean the bolts, etc.  However, in the removal of the unit,
I found the push-rod removed with it, not entirely evil, but there is this
nylon clip that retains the pushrod to the release lever, and it basically
didn't want to slip back on, and the release lever had some slop and all
were located well into the housing, behind this 2" diameter hole.

Plan A: use wire to hold the release lever forward and push it back on.
	Fails: wire interferes with the fitting of the clip, it becomes
	clear the clip won't easily be pushed on, as it's leading edges
	are square and need to be seperated to clear the release lever. 

Plan B: Use screwdriver to prise the clip apart in the hole.
	Fails, too many things to do, no space and only two hands.

	Inspiration: need another method.

Plan C: Replace wire with dental floss (to hold release lever forward
	and not interfere with clip fitting) and dig out the split-ring
	pliers with L-bits to prise the clip apart and over the  release
	lever.  Fails, as in B.

	Inspiration: need a new tool to spread the  clip ends apart and
	not take up any space.  Tape, wire-ties and wire won't do it.

Plan D:	Keep the fingers spread and simply push over release lever.
	Leaving the release lever secured forward by dental floss,
	we spread the fingers and inserted the fourth tool, 

		a wooden match stick

	and furthermore secured a piece of dental floss to the forth
	tool so we could retrieve it after it was secured.
------
Afterward, we managed to unsuccessfully bleed the slave cylinder, so
I'm left with slightly more pedal than before, but not much clutch action.. 

But, seeing how twice my finger reached the dry bottom of the master cylinder,
I think I'll be bleeding that tomorrow.

    Cheers,
	--bill	caloccia@Team.Net	caloccia@Stratus.Com

      1  3     dl OD  L           "Land Rover's first, becuase
      |--|--+  o  |   |            Land Rovers last."
      2  4  R     N   H           '72 Range Rover ++ '69 S.IIa 88"

------------------------------

From: Craig Murray <craigp@ocs.cpsg.com.au>
Subject: Re: A bit of a diesel emergency & my gear box!
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 9:17:40 EST

Hi
Mike writes:

none

Howdy,

Ok folks, heres our chance to earn our bread and
butter. A very nice couple from Austria is here in North
America touring the fruited plains in thier 74 Ser lll
2.25 diesel 109. Things were going along fine until about
Winnepeg, Canada, when abruptly, the engine lost power on
the top end. The symptoms are as follows; the engine
idles just fine, and revs to 4000+ RPMs in the first
three gears, pulling fairly sluggishly, even for a diesel.
The minute you put it in fourth, it loses power, and
can only keep the truck moving along at 45-47 MPH.
Previously, they were able to cruise comfortably at 65
MPH. It has had the following things done to it.
Firstly, the engine was overhauled 60k kilometers ago
before they came to NA, barely broken in by diesel
standards. Now the list of attempted fixes. Overhauled
the distribution pump, twice. The first time, when the
pump was bled initially, black oil came out, indicating
a failed lower seal, allowing crankcase oil to seep in.
This was fixed on the first overhaul and timing, and on
subsequent bleedings (sounds gruesome), there was no
oil detected, other than diesel oil of course. The
injectors have been replaced three times, no help
there. The fuel filters have been replaced and even at one
point, bypassed by running with a can on the bonnet
feeding directly into the distributor pump to see if
there was any obstruction in the fuel system.The regular
fuel pump was also overhauled and then replaced. The air
intake was disconnected at the filter, no help. The
exhaust has been disconnected at the silencer, no
obstructions, no help. Fuel consumption has increased
about 3.5 liters per 100k to 14 liters per 100
kilometers. compression check reveals 490 to 520 pounds
across the board, no leak down to speak of, no sticking
valves. Valves have been adjusted and the timing cover
has been off and the cam timing checked and verified as
being correct. No drag in the drive train, ie. dragging
brakes, transmission brake, slipping clutch, fozen
wheel bearings, etc. All those would be fairly easy to
catch by the smell and or noise, but the thing coasts just
fine. The injectors were tested also as they were
replaced, they spray just fine. Basically, we're out of
ideas. HELP HELP HELP all you disel gurus out there.
The only possibility I can come up with was that the
camshaft has gone flat, allowing reasonable low speeds
but falling of at the top end. But this would not be an
abrupt change, it would be gradual. The problem came on
abruptly. The engine makes no more than the usual
diesel coffee grinder noises, ie, nothing that can be
identified as being abnormal. SO put on your thinking
caps and come up with the brilliant answer folks, a
nice Austrian couple is counting on us.

Rgds
Mike Fredette
mfredett@ichips.intel.com
Portland, Oregon

none

Is it possible that the cam has dropped a lobe, that would explain why it
happened suddenly.  Thats all that I can think of, but I'm not a diesel guru,
yet.

Also while I'm posting, I did not break my lay shaft, it turns out that while
I was changing the bell housing so that I could put the 2.25 in, a 'C' ring
on the lay shaft fell off, alowing first gear to float around, and make a mess!
So currently, I might be having an 'F' suffix IIA gear box re-built, depending
on whether I can get the input shaft cleaned up!
==============================================================================
Craig Murray                                            1955 Series 1 86"
LROC of Victoria Australia                              2.25 diesel (Nearly!)
LROC of Gippsland Victoria Australia             (Currently on Digest Mode)
email: craigp@ocs.cpsg.com.au

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 18:54:50 -0700
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Peirce Manifolds / Weber 2-barrel

Well, given that the weber is at least $150+ (from the UK), and I don't 
really know how to install it, I think I'm gonna hold off on it.  For now.  I 
do appreciate everyone's info on it, though!  (I've got it all filed for the 
future.)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                         "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                                that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                               

------------------------------

From: SC00PER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:55:56 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

unsubscribe me

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From: SC00PER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:55:44 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

Unsubscribe me

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From: SC00PER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:56:23 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

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From: SC00PER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:56:33 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

unsubscribe me

------------------------------

From: SC00PER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:56:16 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

unsubscribe me immediately

------------------------------

From: SC00PER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:57:23 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

unsubscribe me
I'm sorry for doing it this way, but I have no other choice.
I need to attract someone's attention.
My apolgies for inconveniencing anyone who is not in charge of the Land Rover
Digest....
-Steve

------------------------------

From: SC00PER@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:57:31 -0400
Subject: Re: The Land Rover Owner Dail...

unsubscribe me

------------------------------

From: "T.F. Mills" <tomills@du.edu>
Subject: Re: Book Review (Visual Dic)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:53:56 -0600 (MDT)

Baloney writes:
 
< (I offer my apologies if this is old news).  A few weeks back I received a 
< survivalist catalog in the mail...
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 16 lines)]
< look I've ever gotten of the vehicle, and for me it was worth the $14 and 
< change to add it to my Rover book library. 

umm... this is a kiddie book.  I wonder what this says about
survivalist catalogs.  I wonder what this says about Baloney.  Well,
to be fair, the whole Visual Dictionary series is the best in
children's books -- absolutely stunning photography.  When I saw the
Pink Panther on the cover some time ago, I had to buy the book for my
son -- honest!  He's a good excuse for these sort of things.

This list is indeed getting rather quiet.  Is it because almost
everybody has been switched to digest mode, and that sort of kills
spontaneity?

T. F. Mills                                              tomills@du.edu
University of Denver Library  2150 E. Evans Ave.  Denver  CO 80208  USA

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 

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