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From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Re: Dieselphobia
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 09:21:48 UNDEFINED

In article  Steven M Denis <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU> writes:
When poisoning tailgaters (alternative nuclear alternative - obscure their 
vision with a blast of throttle, then JAM ON THE ANCHORS adn scrape the bits 
off your towing balll........), how much of the carbon will find its way onto 
your piston walls and exhaust.

I normally drive listening to the engine so as to stay just below the point 
where the exhaust begins to smoke, so as to minimise teh long term deposits on 
the cylinders,, adn so as not to clog up my shiny everlasting stainless 
exhaust with crud.

Am I being wise or paranoid?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Just another roadkill on the Information Superhighway
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

Subject: Re: A Landrover ride. WOW!
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 10:35:46 +0100 (BST)
From: Richard Jones <rich@amethyst.apricot.co.uk>

John Hong writes:
none
[...]
> I have an inclinometer in the rover ($7 from West Marine - a ball bearing 
> slides in a circular tube to show you heeling angle) and 45 degrees looks 
> really frightful!
none

A friend of mine had one of those devices fiited to a Japanese 4x4 he
owned (don't remember what it was), which he moved to the Range
Rover he replaced it with.  The afore mentioned device had a scale
that went up to 40 degrees, unfortunately, the Range Rover was spotted
happily sitting on a side slop, with petrol pooring out of the locked
filler cap (do Lucas make these too?), with the level indicator right
off the scale :-)  Needless to say the device was disposed of very
shortly afterwards.
 
> TDI! TDI! TDI!
>  John Hong 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>  John Hong 
> (jhong@haiku.com 617-625-9469 voice 623-5253 fax)

-- 
 _ __            Apricot Computer Limited    Tel:   (+44) 21 717 7171
' )  )      /    3500 Parkside               Fax:   (+44) 21 717 0123
 /--' o _. /_    Birmingham Business Park
/  \_<_(__/ <_   BIRMINGHAM  B37 7YS         Email: richardj@apricot.co.uk
Richard Jones    United Kingdom                     ..!uknet!apricot!richardj

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 11:39:23 GMT
From: kjartan@ejs.is (Kjartan)
Subject: Chassis numbering scheme

Hi, rover buffs. I was wondering what information is compiled into
the Range Rover chassis and engine identification numbers.
Does anyone on the list know how  the numbers are put together.
Regards
Kjartan Bergsson
kjartan@ejs.is

------------------------------

From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Date: 29 Jun 94 23:33:39 GMT
Subject: Land Rover Advice

Sean writes: 

none
     I am interested in purchasing a Land Rover and I need some advice on one 
that I have found locally.  I really want to know how much I should spend and 
what I should expect out of these critters.  I have never driven one, so I am 
kind of running on air, since I don't know anyone here with one.  The vehicle 
I'm looking at is a 1964 Series IIA SW.  It still has the stock 2.2 petrol 
engine, but with a Rochester carb, which I have never heard of.  The wiring 
from the fusebox and engine compartment has been burned out by a fire when a 
fuel hose became disattached and caught from the manifold, but the thing was 
running before that.  Most of the body is straight, but there is relatively 
bad rust on both frame and firewall.  I'm not sure how complete this is, as 
the frame still appears rather solid, despite the rust.  What I'd like to know 
is what you would expect to pay for a vehicle like this in your area.  I am in 
the SE United States, so if you know American $ figures, it would be 
appreciated. 
     As an aside, what speed do older Land Rovers comfortably travel on a 
highway?  I've heard that they're slow, but exactly how slow?  What does it 
cost to get a winch and a soft top for one? 
none

Sean, 

Carbs:  If you're having carb problems and can't afford US prices, order a NEW 
ZENITH 36 IV (as fitted to series IIA and III).  Call Dingocroft in England - 
011 44494 448367 before 7:00 weekdays (to get the economy phone rates).  The 
price is L65 (about $98).  Shipping and duty should run between $25-$30.  If 
you are running a Solex or Rochester without an adapter beneath, you'll need 
an adapter kit as well - L15.  If these parts prices include VAT (Value Added 
Tax) then the parts cost will be 14% cheaper (they didn't specify in the ad). 
 The original Zenith in good condition is smoother and better off road than 
the Rochester and peppier than the Weber (the Weber has a smaller 
venturi-throat). 

Harnesses:  You'll probably drop dead when you price a harness from a US 
supplier.  If you get that far use John Craddock or Merseyside in the UK.  I 
don't have the numbers handy but can get them if you wish. 

Rust:  Frame and firewall are usually repairable but do bring the price down. 
In the NYC suburbs a vehicle as you described should go for about $500-$1000, 
at least that seems to be the asking prices around here.  You should be able 
to pick it up on the low end of that scale.

Driveability:  Slow.  Noisy.  Uncomfortable.  Primitive.  Absolutely the most 
fun vehicle you'll ever drive!  I just love taking mine on trips of 800-1000 
miles.  Getting there is a good deal of the fun.  You sit in the slow lane 
(yes, I do run overdrives) and watch the traffic pass (and a good portion are 
watching you).  It's a friendly vehicle, as folks don't seem to think your 
rich or stuck up or try to race or cut you off.  Brings smiles mostly.  And 
lots of friendly questions.  As for speed, I've been in Rovers doing 75, but I 
keep mine below 60.  Above that is really pushing it and it REALLY sucks the 
gas.

Repairs/Restoration:  Time & patience.  For the first year of your getting it 
on the road keep in mind that each item you fix will uncover another problem. 
Once you've got the bugs worked out they are really pretty trouble free.  
You'll need very few special tools (19/32 socket, open, and box ends, hub nut 
wrench) and it is very easy to work on.  Execpt for rusted fasteners.  Be 
prepared to replace every gearbox and axle seal on the vehicle (and if the hub 
races are scored, replace them as well.

Winch:  Dunno. Never wanted one (I'm sure someone else will provide some 
details for you).  

Soft top:  About $600 from ABP with hoops.  RN has run a similar special in th 
past but not right now.  Tailgates are about $400 new and almost non-existent 
used.

Good Luck and let us know how you made out.

Bill Maloney

IIA 88 and 109 Wagon

maloney@wings.attmail.com

------------------------------

From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Date: 29 Jun 94 23:48:48 GMT
Subject: Steve Denis Makes LRW?

HMMM??? 

Was that Big Steve Denis I saw on page 106 of LRW with the shades, furry face 
(or was that diesel soot?), and doofy hat?  Steve, you really should shave or 
wash more frequently (no Steve, you can't have my copy.  Friendships only go 
just so far).  Cathy Papas made it too and some other familiar faces that I 
can't connect names to.  Also the rolling chassis that RN has been trying to 
sell for the last year and a half or so.  There's no caption under the photo 
but it looks like last year's Owls Head meet. 

Project status: It's exhaust time (choke, choke).  I'll finally get that 
exhaust system I bought 2 years ago from RN when I thought my system was going 
to fall off.  At least it means I won't have to tackle the springs this 
weekend. 

Bill Maloney 

maloney@wings.attmail.com 

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Dieselphobia
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 14:38:00 BST

> In article  Steven M Denis <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU> writes:
> When poisoning tailgaters (alternative nuclear alternative - obscure their 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> off your towing balll........), how much of the carbon will find its way onto 
> your piston walls and exhaust.
None on the walls,I wouldnt have thought,some on the crowns,and my exhausts
never last long enough to worry about:-(
> I normally drive listening to the engine so as to stay just below the point 
> where the exhaust begins to smoke, so as to minimise teh long term deposits on 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
> exhaust with crud.
> Am I being wise or paranoid?
Neither,or both.It makes a change to know *anyone* drives listening to
the engine,rather than turning up the radio and ignoring the long suffering
power unit.I'd be interested to know how long you have had your SS exhaust
and your impressions of it so far.I've had varying reports on these,mostly
bad,like they split,etc,so I've steered clear until now.But it would be
nice to think I didnt have to grovel underneath for this particular
horrible job *ever* again.

> I normally drive listening to the engine so as to stay just below the point 
> where the exhaust begins to smoke, so as to minimise teh long term deposits on 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>         Just another roadkill on the Information Superhighway
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cheers 
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 09:41:18 EDT
From: CXKS46A@prodigy.com (MR ALEXANDER P GRICE)
Subject: T-Shirts, other stuff

For all of those who wrote back asking for T-shirts (Roy, Lee, Vance and
Steve), the next batch is in, but now we have more XL's than L's.  And
Russell, you asked for a long-sleve in large...well, you got it (sorry, no
pocket, tho'). Ludo, your shirt went out last week, so let me know how
swift the international mails are.

If you tuned in late, we're talking about the club's first-quality,
heavy-weight T-shirts: four-color logo on the pocket, detailed line art of
a SIII, RHD full-tilt on the back along with clever slogans.  $20 includes
postage (in the US).  Cheques to R.O.A.V., please.

And don't forget, the Mid-Atlantic Rover Rally Columbus Day weekend in
Buckingham Co., VA.  Land Rover North America is advancing us a sizeable
chunk of change (the first time they have ever done that for a club, I
might add), so this won't be you ordinary Rover rally....Bluegrass band,
BBQ, trials course, road tour, teeter-totter, blindfold obstacle course,
silent auction (tons o' good stuff!), prizes and MORE.

    *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"-----*
    |                                                      |
    |  Sandy Grice,  Rover Owners' Association of Virginia |
    |  E-Mail: CXKS46A@prodigy.com       FAX: 804-622-7056 |
    |  Voice: 804-622-7054 (Days)  804-423-4898 (Evenings) |
    |    1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA, 23508-1730 USA   |
    *------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

From: "Keith Coman" <BAKC@giraffe.ru.ac.za>
Date:          Wed, 29 Jun 1994 16:05:03 GMT+0200
Subject:       Re: A Landrover ride. "Inclinometers"!

> > I have an inclinometer in the rover ($7 from West Marine - a ball bearing 
> > slides in a circular tube to show you heeling angle) and 45 degrees looks 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
> filler cap (do Lucas make these too?), with the level indicator right
> off the scale :-)  Needless to say the device was disposed of very
> shortly afterwards.

    Hooboy!  These inclinowhatzits are synonymous with Japanese 
"luxury" 4x4's.  Totally useless gimmick IMO: when it's getting dark 
outside, the path's full of rocks and wash-gullies, and the incline's 
such that either all you can see is the sky over the edge of the 
bonnet or you're hanging in yr seat harness like a dive-bomber 
jockey,  Oi reckon the last fing a sensible chap'd be eyeballing is 
this little gizmo!!  Still, they're a revealing insight into the 
needs, wants and values of trendy "never been off the tar and never 
will" Nissan punters! (:D)
    Incidently, the "How far can a Landie lean?" question seems to 
admit to two answers.  First, there's the static test -- as per the 
old Land Rover publicity shot -- Landie parked on a platform that's 
obviously been slowly jacked up on one side: driver hanging on like 
grim death and an inclinometer stuck on the windsreen showing some 
outrageous measurement.  Second, more practical, is the dynamic test.
Drive a Landie on the side of real world off-road incline parallel to 
the ridge.  Statically a Landie might be able to stay on its wheels
at around 45 degrees, dynamically the first small rock to lift an 
uphill wheel or wrong steering move will see a roll taking place 
perhaps well below this extreme.  Take it easy on the slopes, chaps!
Cheers,
Keith Coman * Dept of Management, Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa *
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 10:07:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven M Denis  <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU>
Subject: Re: Howdy all-

Oh yeah..the perkins is put in Land rovers with alarming regulartity....
people jump off bridges too....
The main draw of the perkins,at least in the UK,is that people put them in
landies to keep from tripping over them ....to say they are cheap and
plentiful is akin to saying Jeeps are junk....:-)
steve....

HEY, NICE JEEP MISTER!...................IT'S "NOTAJEEP"

Steven M. Denis <denis@oswego.oswego.edu>
PO BOX 61
Erieville,NY 13061

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 10:34:34 +0100
From: Robertslab<rjrlab@neb.com>
Subject: unsubscribe

unsubscribe lro-digest

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________________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 09:03:45 MDT
From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL )
Subject: Rover Names

This is nothing technical or hard just fun.
I want to up-date my list of names owners have
for their Rovers.  You can send them to me by
E-Mail to keep the list traffic down.  When I 
get enough I will post a list to the net.

You that have already passed on the names do so 
again, if you wish.

Roy - Sharing time with Wicked Wanda, Coyote Sister and
      an, as yet, un-named 69 IIA,SWB.

------------------------------

From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andy Woodward)
Subject: Re: Dieselphobia
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 16:16:10 UNDEFINED

>power unit.I'd be interested to know how long you have had your SS exhaust
>and your impressions of it so far.I've had varying reports on these,mostly
>bad,like they split,etc,so I've steered clear until now.But it would be
>nice to think I didnt have to grovel underneath for this particular
>horrible job *ever* again.

Ive only hda mine for about 5 year, and it's so far, only the rear section 
(The original is still going strong on regular coatings of baked on Waxoyl. 
But since it shows every sign of lasting for ever, I am concerned about 
filling it full of carbon over the projected life of teh vehicle 
(governmentbastards excepted.....). Sure, I know you can treat itteh same way 
as a coked up 2stroke exhaust, but I'd rather not put the crap there in the 
first place.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        Just another roadkill on the Information Superhighway
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: This Oil Burning Thing
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 94 16:30:27 BST

Actually,Steve,a Perkins cyl head makes a good doorstop,and you
can grow flowers in the block....:-)
But..there is at least one documented example of the Perkins Prima
transplanted into a ninety with success.This is a two litre engine
currently used in the Rover Montego.Better engine than the car around it.
What puzzles me about this discussion is that there does not appear to
be a small(sic) American diesel which could be used.Is this so? If so,
why?Is it because petrol is so cheap in the states that there is no
incentive to produce such a thing?Or is diesel fuel relatively expensive?
The rest of the world seems to have embraced the cause of compression
ignition with great enthusiasm(and,apparently,considerable success),and
I cant for the life of me think its beyond the wit of Detroit or whoever
to get stuck into the problem and crack it.Or is it simply customer
resistance?If so,it *must* be something someone did and made a right 
balls-up of,because I cant see the American public being more stick-in
the-mud than us lot.After all,the USA went into diesel marine,truck,
and in particular railway engines with *great* vim and vigour,so why
not cars?I dont understand.Can someone explain please?
On the subject of Incliwhatsits,I agre with you Keith.I get apprehensive
going up the kerb!Is the answer that you let it go over until the smell
hits your nostrils and your sitting in it.....Then you've gone just a
leeetle bit *too* far..
Mate of mine got a very nice '73 S111 88" through this.Bloke bought it
and took his family on a run into the hills.Onto a side slope,had the
kids screaming to get out,wife calling him all the names under the sun,
and *he* was s--t scared,too.Got rid the very next week for less than
he paid for it,a *lot* less,and what's more he did all the necessary
welding free,and got it resprayed too.Some people have all the luck.
Or perhaps its an ill wind.
Cheers
Mike Rooth
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven M Denis  <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU>
Subject: Re: This Oil Burning Thing

Well Mike, the state of most everything in the USA seems to be based on
the concept that "BIGGER IS BETTER"...(have you seen the show "Baywatch"?) 
soo the idea of a car that small and economical is a very "foreign"
concept her...pun intended.. most of the small(ish) cars here *start* at
2.0 liters and go up from there..as an example,the Vauxhall Astra is sold
here as a Pontiac Le Mans..It comes with a 2.0 FI. engine.....and is
concidered a joke as it is underpowered! Your Ford Fiesta mk 1 was only
avalible as a 1.6 l. and a choise of 1 or 2 choke carb...
our base model pick up trucks (*REAL* trucks,not those"jap-o-sneeze" jobs)
Have an 8 foot box, automatic transmission and minimum 4.1 l. engines!
There are diesel engines of course, Ford uses a 7.4 liter cattipillar V-8,
Gm uses 6.2 or 6.5 liter and Dodge has a Cummings unit of like 5.3 liters
but it is turbo-intercooled and develops 440 ft/lbs of torque at like,1700
rpm.....now wouldn't *that* snap your half shafts!!!! Alll these engines
are *WAY* too big to fit in a landie(Jed Silbersher has a silly look in
his eyes re: his 101 and that dodge unit..)and any smaller vehicle units
are rare and expensive... the only diesel cars sold her now that I can
think of are the VW Jetta (may not still have diesel in the jetta III model)
and some mercedes cars....gasoline is $1.20 or so a US gallon tho this can
vary wildly...Diesel is about $1.35 gal...? current exchange rate of $1.55
per pound sterling would mean that you would pay *about* 1.10 sterling for
an imperial gallon.....Why would you want a 2.25 109 when you could have a
225 hp ford 5.0 liter????? I traveled with a lad who had a ford 5.0 when i
was driving a nissian powewred 88" (2.2)....same route,same speed....I got
26 mpg he got 20....hardly worth the diesel bother,no? so I must say that
in this country,you have to be nuts to own a diesel..so....I'm nuts!!!!
*I* like the sound and the water-proof-ness...could use some more speed
tho....
*STILL*"rattling"on...
steve...
                                           
HEY, NICE JEEP MISTER!...................IT'S "NOTAJEEP"

Steven M. Denis <denis@oswego.oswego.edu>
PO BOX 61
Erieville,NY 13061

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 11:27:48 -0500
From: "David K. Hudson" <dkh@howdy.wustl.edu>

A long while back someone mentioned that a BMW coolant sensor is used
in a Range Rover.  The sensor in my wife's '89 RR just died, and the
RR part is about $60.  Does anyone know the BMW part number?

Thanks,
Dave Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 12:24:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven M Denis  <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU>
Subject: Re: Steve Denis Makes LRW?

On 29 Jun 1994, maloney wrote:

> HMMM??? 
> Was that Big Steve Denis I saw on page 106 of LRW with the shades, furry face 
> (or was that diesel soot?), and doofy hat?  
none

Sorry Bill,  not me...*I* was the one with the DOOFY *FACE* and the FURRY
*HAT*!........

YES folks!  THIS WAS BANTER!!!!!!!!
steve.....

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 12:46:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven M Denis  <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU>
Subject: Re: Howdy all-

ooops ! I guessed ya missed it...IF your diesel block has sleeves that
make the bore smaller than the petrol pistons,it is a 2.0 liter diesel and
the sleeves are surrounded by water! if you press them out.you have no
cylinders!....also the wrist pins on the diesel(2.0 and 2.25) are larger
than the petrol counterparts..(1.0 inch methinks)...so you will have to
change the rods too..You *might* find pistons of the correct size,pin
size,height, to fit,but your diesel pistons will work fine in a petrol(Bit
heavy,but ok) the cam is also diff. ,but those converting to petrol on the
2.25 say that the diesel cam really "wakes up" the petrol.....
have fun..
steve....

HEY, NICE JEEP MISTER!...................IT'S "NOTAJEEP"

Steven M. Denis <denis@oswego.oswego.edu>
PO BOX 61
Erieville,NY 13061

On Tue, 28 Jun 1994, David John Place wrote:

> Craig.  I have all the pieces from a diesel I took apart.  I don't wa}int
> to go this way again, but can I just push out the sleeves in the block and
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> to go this way again, but can I just push out the sleeves in the block and
> use it as a petrol?  Dave VE4PN

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 94 13:25:50 EDT
From: Keith Steele <75126.1123@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE:  Galvanized frame info

Thank you to all who sent me information on galvanized frames
and frame corrosion control.  Normally I try to thank you all 
individually but so many of you helped I've lost track.

I will try using the oil coating method this winter.  If it
prevents rust I will stick with it.  If not next summer I will try
to arrange for a frame-over with a new galvanized frame.

Thanks Again

Keith Steele
75126.1123@compuserve.com
KEITHSTEELE@delphi.com
72' Series III since new

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 13:07:54 -0500
From: hiner@mail.utexas.edu (Greg Hiner)
Subject: Frame Lore

Two things -

Does anybody know of a mail order supplier for Waxoyl. I've never seen it
down here in TX or NM.

Also - to add to the discussion of frames - I understand that on a
Lightweight the gearbox crossmember unbolts from the frame so that you can
easily drop the tranny. Can this be done to a standard frame. It seems like
it would be a major convenience to be able to drop the tranny straight out
without resorting to pulling up the floor and such (though I do know that
somebody out there posted a hint on how to get the tranny out without doing
this.)

Greg

------------------------------

From: ccray@lulu.cc.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Frame Lore
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 13:46:18 -0500 (CDT)

Greg Hiner was bold enough to point out...
>Two things -
>Does anybody know of a mail order supplier for Waxoyl. I've never seen it
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>Does anybody know of a mail order supplier for Waxoyl. I've never seen it
>down here in TX or NM.
my MG suppliers have it -- thats Victoria brittish in KCMO and
Moss Motors in Galenta, CA.  I can get 800 numbers for you if
you need 'em

>Also - to add to the discussion of frames - I understand that on a
>Lightweight the gearbox crossmember unbolts from the frame so that you can
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
>somebody out there posted a hint on how to get the tranny out without doing
>this.)

I had a frame galvanized.  I made the tx crossmember removable before.
 -- cut the tx crossmember thru about an inch from where it 
    attaches to the frame with a die grinder.
 -- get 4 pieces of flat (say 3/16 x 6 x 6 ) with 4 holes
    in each (say 7/16 for 3/8 bolts).
 -- bolt two together and the other two together.  Position
    those in place and weld the tx crossmember back in.
 -- If you remove the bolts, the tx crossmember slips off.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ray Harder                 Columbia, Missouri   314-882-2000

- 61 SIIa 88 (LULU)        - 66 SIIa 88 (rebuild project)
- 69 SIIa 88 (parts)       - 87 RR      (wife's)
- 80 MGB                   - xx
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Kok <kok@oasys.dt.navy.mil>
Date: 29 Jun 94 17:44 EDT
Subject: Defender 110 testdrive

I found this on the off road mailing list, only been following
off-road stuff for a couple months but these are real impressive.

Happy reading !

Bill Kok
kok@oasys.dt.navy.mil

 ***  Beginning of Forwarded Message  ***

	id AA00289; Tue, 28 Jun 94 00:14:06 EDT
  (5.65c/Gatech-10.0-IDA for <kok@oasys.dt.navy.mil>); Tue, 28 Jun 1994 00:04:04 -0400
	id AA09679; Mon, 27 Jun 94 23:58:04 EDT
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 23:58:01 EDT
From: Stefan Roth (The Administrator) <offroad-request@ai.gtri.gatech.edu>
X-Ignore: Offroad
Subject: Offroad Digest V3 #482

Offroad Digest              Mon, 27 Jun 94       Volume 3 : Issue 482 

Today's Topics:
		   A Landrover ride. WOW! (2 msgs)
			Axle Trusses (8 msgs)
		    Holister & Clearcreek (6 msgs)
	       Jeepster Man in NJ? / Bilmore Lake trail
			     more images
		    more images (passwd) (2 msgs)
			   Red Rock Canyon
		     Toyota Questions... (2 msgs)
		 TTB - was Re: Axle Trusses (2 msgs)
      wanted for '94 Pathfinder: Brush/Nerf bars sold in Toronto
			       Winches

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  Stefan Roth - Administrator of offroad mailing list        (RFC 934)

  To post to list:
	offroad@ai.gtri.gatech.edu

  Administrative matters (sign up, unsubscribe, mail problems, etc):
	offroad-request@ai.gtri.gatech.edu

  Offroad server for FAQ, back issues, bibliography, etc. Put the word
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 15:24:27 MDT
From: Darrin Sharp <sharp@hpsharp.fc.hp.com>
Subject: A Landrover ride. WOW!

	I just got back from a trip to the UK. While there, I had a 
	fun little sidetrip that I thought might be interesting to 
	some of my fellow off-roaders.

	Just outside London is a place called the "Heritage Auto Museum".
	They have a large collection of classic and not-so-classic
	vehicles, how-it-works displays, videos, etc. Oh, and a gift
	shop (of course).

	The most interesting part for me was their "Landrover 
	Demonstration Circuit". This is a short (3/4 mi?) obstacle
	course constructed of all kinds of "hazards". The course winds
	around quite a bit within an area of maybe 2-3 acres. It takes
	about 10-12 minutes to traverse the entire course.

	The "hazards" consist of all kinds of good stuff: water crossings
	of 20-30 yards long and a couple of feet deep; 30 degree side
	hills; _deep_ rutted double track; steep up and down hills; a
	"suspension articulation" section (more on this later); and
	lots of mud (this is England, remember).

	It costs $6-8 US to get into the museum, then another couple $'s
	US to go on the Landrover ride. The Landrover ride is a few
	hundred yards away from the actual museum itself (but they're
	connected by a shuttle train - pulled by a Landrover, naturally).

	Buying a ticket to the Landrover ride entitles you to ride
	along for once around the circuit. Unfortunately, paying extra
	for the privilege of driving is not an option :^( 

	The vehicle I got to ride in was a brand new (400 miles on the
	odometer) Landrover Defender 110. 2.? liter turbodiesel/5 speed,
	10? passenger capacity, 110" wheelbase, 5 doors, skinny 7.5x16"
	tires, and manually locking diffs front and rear. Suspension 
	was solid, live axles front and rear, with coil springs. No 
	aftermarket stuff that I could tell. Seemed like all factory 
	equipment. Pretty basic and utilitarian inside, but who needs all 
	that fancy trim anyway? The driver said it cost about 20,000 pounds 
	(~$30,000 US). Apparently this is about average for one of 
	these types of vehicles.

	This is a big truck. It has a wheelbase several inches longer
	than a full size Bronco/Blazer, but is a little narrower. My
	Wrangler has almost a foot and a half less wheelbase, and 
	I'm guessing at least 3-4 feet less overall length.

	Now for my impressions of the ride: 

	WOW!! This Landrover was amazing. It easily motored over and 
	around several obstacles that I'm sure would've left my Wrangler
	high and dry (or deep and wet) and in need of a winching. It had a 
	deceptively large amount of ground clearance. We easily traversed 
	several sections of very deep ruts without even scraping.

	It was also surprising agile for a vehicle this large. There
	were no _really_ tight spots, but it negotiated the few sharp 
	corners pretty easily.

	The turbo diesel was very impressive. At one point, while going
	up a fairly steep incline (20-30 degrees? it always seems steeper
	than it really is) in 4-LO the driver took his foot completely
	off the accelerator and we _idled_ up the rest of the incline.
	Remember, this was a 3500-4000 pound vehicle with 8 passengers on
	board! My Wrangler with its twice-as-big gas engine would've
	stalled in a second if I tried that. The creeping ability of
	this drivetrain was really astounding.

	One section of the course is called the "suspension articulation
	demonstration section", or something like that. It consists of
	a series of staggered concrete "railroad ties", followed by 
	a series of staggered concrete "donuts" set into the ground.
	The ground around all the concrete emplacements is eroded quite
	a bit. Hence, the concrete sticks up above the ground surface 
	a couple (maybe more) feet. All the obstacles are offset from 
	each other to varying degrees, so that the wheels on the
	vehicle are constantly moving through large up-and-down arcs.
	
	Again, the Landrover just motored over all this without even
	breathing hard. I was quite impressed with the amount of wheel
	travel, and suppleness of the suspension. Way better than my
	Wrangler. I've read several times that these coil-sprung 
	Landrovers/Rangerovers have the best engineered off-road suspension
	available in the world. After this ride I'm inclined to agree.

	At one point the driver took us up on a side hill that had us
	leaning _way_ over. I was getting pretty gripped, and it wasn't
	even my vehicle! We got over so far that we started to slide
	_sideways_ down the hill! Don't know if this is some kind of
	optimization Rover does between center of gravity, track width,
	tires, suspension, etc., or if we were just lucky. Anyway, I 
	was impressed (again) with the stability of the truck.

	Undoubtedly, some of this Landrover's feats were made possible
	by the dual locking diffs. However, this vehicle still would
	have had an amazing amount of off-road capability even without
	them, I'm sure.

	If Rover had a decent dealer network in the US, and they sold
	these things for reasonable prices over here, I'd buy one in
	a second. Unfortunately, I'm afraid parts availability would be
	pretty dismal in most places in the US, and they're out of my price
	range anyway (a Defender like I rode in is about $40,000 US
	here, and a Discovery is about $28,000 US). And, no diesel engines
	on this side of the pond. Guess I'll have to stick to the American 
	and Japanese offerings for a while.

	Sure, you could probably build up a CJ/Wrangler/4Runner/Pathfinder/
	Blazer/etc. to match or better this Landrover's off-road 
	performance. But, it'd take thousands of dollars and a lot of 
	time. The Landrover was able to do this all in stock form, with 
	factory enginered parts. Pretty incredible, if you ask me. Except
	for maybe the new coil-sprung Toyota Landcruisers, I'll bet this
	is the most offroad capable stock vehicle you can buy today.
	Plus, a Landrover Defender just looks _so_ cool!

	If you'd like more info on the museum (like directions), feel free 
	to e-mail me. The museum was OK, but the Landrover ride was lots 
	more fun, I thought.

	-Darrin Sharp (sharp@fc.hp.com)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 08:19:41 +1000
From: stockman@csis.dit.csiro.au (Roy Stockman)
Subject: A Landrover ride. WOW!

A diesel and coil sprung solid axle seems to best combination for off road driving.
Putting a good aftermarket coil suspension really makes  wheel travel 
on these types setups breath taking as the name of the game is the 
keep the wheels on the ground for traction. 

Roy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 27 Jun 94 07:46:00 +0600
From: Steven.G.Spearman@att.com
Subject: Axle trusses

Have those who added these found any problems with clearance?  I
always thought it looked like you lost a lot of rock clearance on
the sides of the pumpkin with those so I've avoided them.

- -Steve Spearman spear@longs.att.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 10:49:54 PDT
From: chrisw@cabo.is.brooktree.com (chris wilson)
Subject: Axle Trusses

> So, for light to medium duty trail work, you feel that a truss wouldn't 
> be needed for my '93 Ranger, is that right?
> Shel Belinkoff
> belinkof@netcom.com
none

I bent the rear axle housing on my '93 Ranger (8.8") by getting some air
under it with 1000lbs of camping gear in back.  Unless you do somthing
as stupid as that, you should be fine.  Ford replaced it under warrantee
and I had a custom truss welded on by one of the local offroad racing shops
in San Diego.

Regarding all this TTB discussion, this is an OFFROAD list and the TTB
works great OFFROAD.  Just my dos pesos.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 11:57:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: Axle Trusses

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994, chris wilson wrote:

> I bent the rear axle housing on my '93 Ranger (8.8") by getting some air
> under it with 1000lbs of camping gear in back.  Unless you do somthing
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> Regarding all this TTB discussion, this is an OFFROAD list and the TTB
> works great OFFROAD.  Just my dos pesos.
How do you like your Ranger? How's it set up? I've a '93 SuperCab with 
the 4.0-liter engine, manual trans and hubs, limited slip, and 31's. It's 
comfortable, reliable, and thus far, just great for the kind of wheelin' 
I do.

With regard to the TTB - Hey, that's one reason I bought the Ford. Now 
that I think I've found someone with some expertise in setting up the 
TTB, I suspect most of my on-road complaints, which are minor and of 
little consequence, will disappear as well.
   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 13:43:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: Axle Trusses

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994, Dimitry Struve wrote:
> Shel -
> Did you end up going to Custom, or to the place in
> Pleasanton someone else recommended
> and I had a custom truss welded on by one of the local offroad racing shops
none

I haven't done anything yet. Right now I'm pretty busy, and I won't be 
able to get the alignment taken care of until after the 4th of July. 
It'll be an all-day affair at either place, especially considering the 
distance.

 > BTW I think TTB does work great offroad, and . . . 
 > it could have been implemented better for service and
 > durability.

I'm on my 2nd TTB setup, and have had no problems with either. I 
understand how some people may feel it's a less than ideal setup, what 
with conventional thinking being that a solid axle or "traditional" IRS 
is the way to go. But it's interesting to note that some of the 4x4 mags 
have recently commented how well the TTB setup works, especially in slow, 
deliberate trail work. That's been my experience as well.

 > Also, do you have factory rims on your truck or aftermarket? I
 > might be interested in a set of factory 15x6 takeoffs if you
 > still have them ...

Can't help you there - my truck came with 15x7 alloys as standard 
equipment, and that's what I'm running now. In fact, I got a factory 
take-off for my spare. Have you tried Acker Wheel in San Jose? That's 
where I got my spare wheel - but a set of standard rims should be easy to 
come by, no?
   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 14:31:40 PDT
From: brycerw@sanjuan.uvic.ca (Robert Bryce)
Subject: Axle Trusses

With all this talk, I'm now considering this as well, only for my
Jeep Comanche, since my offroading is getting more and more serious,
and going to somewhere between a 31 and 33-inch tire size (inclusive).
Questions:
	1.)     what's the going price range for axle trusses,
		custom and otherwise?
	2.)     I see no reason why you couldn't make these
		yourself if you've got (access to) a welder, basic
		shop tools - which I do.  What are the basic parts,
		how complicated does it look, what's involved?
		Could save lotsa $$$.
	3.)     Do they always go "underneath" the axle?  Or can
		they go above the pumpkin?  (Thinking of clearance
		here).
	4.)     Do these actually "stress" the axle a bit when properly
		installed, or simply re-enforce what is already there?
	5.)     Anything else I should know if I decide to make it
		myself.  :-)

Thanx.

- --Rob

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 15:16:10 -1000
From: "Mike Jaquet, SM2, Auburn, CA" <MIKE_J2@sfov1.verifone.com>
Subject: Axle Trusses

>>      3.)     Do they always go "underneath" the axle?  Or can
>>              they go above the pumpkin?  (Thinking of clearance
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>>              installed, or simply re-enforce what is already there?
>>--Rob

3. all the ones I've seen were under the bump.  they also provide some 
additional anti-walk-home protection incase you come down with the pumpkin  
on top of a rock, like when the rock one tire is on decides to roll from 
under your tire and thump, there you are high-centered on the pumpkin 
instead of the potential truss.  A welded truss is easier to fix a ding in 
than is a cast pumpkin with a crack which leaks gear lube.  I've also seen 
some trusses with a mini-skid plate attached to help protect the nose of 
the pumpkin.  Don't you like all these high-tech terms like "pumpkin nose"?

4. i think when properly designed, they do both.

5. if you make your own, you could also add some theft deterrent,like 
adding a call-home number, or the vehicles lisc plate number incase the 
local p.d. happen to see the thieves without a plate on the rig, or if they 
switched plates to vacate the area.

mike_j2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 14:20:11 -0700
From: danapple@vicor.com
Subject: Axle Trusses 

> Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com> writes:

> In fact, I got a factory take-off for my spare.

Also try the dealerships.  At least the local Toy dealer keeps wheels
around from vehicles that people upgrade (to factory allows or
aftermarket) at the dealership.  I bought the factory "fancy" steels
wheels for my 4Runner for $25/each, in almost new condition.  I bought
two for spares.

> |    Shel Belinkoff         |

Dan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 15:57:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: Axle Trusses 

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994 danapple@vicor.com wrote: 

> Also try the dealerships.  At least the local Toy dealer keeps wheels
>>              they go above the pumpkin?  (Thinking of clearance

I tried, but none of the local dealers had any. I suspect that I'd have
had better luck if I were looking for steel wheels rather than the "fancy"
alloys. Maybe I payed a little more than I had to, maybe not. I called all
the Bay Area Ford dealerships and about 6 or 8 salvage yards. Nothing - so
Acker was my next best choice. 

   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 10:17:33 PDT
From: dave demartini <dd6582@trini.nado.hp.com>
Subject: Holister & Clearcreek

HOLISTER HILLS
I still am not sure which road runs from Holister to the coast (I must have
missed that message too..) so if someone who has the info could re-post, that
would be great..

CLEARCREEK
How was clear-creek?  Have not been there in years...   Where you able to
make it to the top of the mountain where the repeaters are?  Last time I was
there was on January 1st, during a snow storm.  The snow came half-way up the
grill on my 3" lifted Ramcharger..  we got within 100 yards of the top (we did
not know it at the time, since it was covered in clouds..).  I understand the 
view is awsome.

How are the trails?  I'm thinking of taking a trip back there with the new (old)
truck.

I'd be interested in comments..

Dave DeMartini
dd6582@nado.hp.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 12:09:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: Holister & Clearcreek

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994, dave demartini wrote:

> HOLISTER HILLS 
> I still am not sure which road runs from Holister to
the coast (I must have  missed that message too..) so if someone who has
the info could re-post, that would be great.. > 

Dave - the road is south of HHSRVA, and is located about 4 or 5 miles or
so north of Pinnacles Ntl Monument on Highway 25. It's a small road, and
looks like it just goes onto someone's property, but there's a sign there,
which is easy to miss, that says it's the road to Gonzales. It's not
difficult at all, in fact, unless the road's muddy, you probably don't
need 4WD, but it's sure a pretty drive, especially in the spring, when
everything is green and the water's running. Late in the day, when the
light's right, it's just so pleasant . . . 

   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 13:10:32 +0800
From: Dimitry.Struve@Eng.Sun.COM (Dimitry Struve)
Subject: Holister & Clearcreek

I believe the road from CA 25 to Gonzales is called Deo Gloria Road.
Unless it's muddy you should be able to do it in a Cadillac. And
there is a gate at the Highway 25 end, which I believe is closed
(locked) in winter. 

With a few exceptions, San Benito County is the only place in the
greater Bay Area with legal unpaved roads. If you are a AAA member
pick up the Monterey and San Benito County map. Most of the thinnest
lines represent unpaved roads. In winter the mud can be quite a
challenge, though I don't know if that is Treading Lightly :)

- -Dimitry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 14:17:06 -0700
From: danapple@vicor.com
Subject: Holister & Clearcreek 

> Dimitry.Struve@eng.sun.com (Dimitry Struve) writes:

> In winter the mud can be quite a
> challenge, though I don't know if that is Treading Lightly :)

Most of the guidelines I've read say that spinning tires in mud is
acceptable, as it is in snow.  A mud bog is quite a different
environment than a stream bed.  If course, I don't think this means
'spinning wildly till your vehicle is submerged' but that a bit of
spinning is acceptable, since you're not really damaging anything.  On
dirt, if you spin your wheels, you're actually damaging something.

> -Dimitry

Dan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 16:05:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: Holister & Clearcreek 

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994 danapple@vicor.com wrote:

> > Dimitry.Struve@eng.sun.com (Dimitry Struve) writes:
> > In winter the mud can be quite a
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
> Most of the guidelines I've read say that spinning tires in mud is
> acceptable, as it is in snow.  A mud bog is quite a different

Dan - we were not talking about a mud bog, we were discussing a dirt road 
that runs through a couple of ranches. To spiyour tires on such a road 
could cause deep rutting, run-off, and erosion. And, since the road 
is used by the property owners, it might be poor etiquete to mess it up.

   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 16:28:20 +0800
From: Dimitry.Struve@Eng.Sun.COM (Dimitry Struve)
Subject: Holister & Clearcreek

> > In winter the mud can be quite a
> > challenge, though I don't know if that is Treading Lightly :)

I was originally joking - building a road in the first place
isn't exactly Treading Lightly, but in fact
I am actually unsure on this: since it doesn't really rain that
much around here mud is rare experience. Most of the legal
dirt roads around here don't need 4 wd (or even high clearance)
in summer, especially if they get bladed by the county or BLM
or Forest Service. But in winter they get hugely rutted by
runoff and wheel tracks. Without these conditions, they wouldn't
be much fun. On the other hand, as Shel points out, the rutting
causes runoff and is probably a big hassle for the few ranchers or 
others who aren't there for fun. Still, it IS a road, and as such
isn't exactly like mud-bogging in an alpine meadow.

My feeling has always been that as long as the road is open, it's fair
game for travel, but wheelspin and such should be minimzed as a goal of
low-impact use (as well as a mark of skill).  I generally don't go off
road or off trail even if legal, unless I'm in a gravel pit or some
area set aside for play

- -Dimitry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 07:57:51 -0600
From: cschamau@massive.Mines.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Jeepster Man in NJ? / Bilmore Lake trail

Howdy!
  We have a rather beat-up 70 Jeepster Commando. Ran into someone
on the trail this weekend with a sharp 67 Commando Roadster. They
mentioned getting parts from "The Jeepster Man" in New Jersey. Do
any of you guys from Jersey (or that area) know who this is? I'd 
like a way to contact them and see what kind of part selection they have. 
  Does anyone belonging to Mile-Hi Jeep Club know the couple mentioned
above? (If so, I'd appreciate more info from/about them - i.e. a way to 
contact them. They were an older couple. Their Jeepster was burgundy with 
a white top, Warn winch - really sharp. Hope this helps.)

  We had an uneventful trip up towards Bilmore Lake (out of Empire), 
so I have not 'road report' other than that you can't get to the
lake any more! The jeep clubs had been maintaining this road (saw
a D9 up there a couple years ago) but the Forest Service blocked it
off with a bunch of huge boulders a mile or 2 short of the lake for
some reason. (You could probably still bike or hike in, but no 4x4s
or ATVs would be able to get past the block.)

Connie Schamaun                                 70 Jeepster Commando
Colorado School of Mines
cschamau@mines.colorado.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 09:18:07 -0500 (EDT)
From: leonard@speedy.cc.uky.edu (Leonard Lauria)
Subject: more images

According to Rick Colombo:
>Here's a sample ftp, plus I see Peter has a directory with Viewers in it:
>BRONCO_$ ftp
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 13 lines)]
>Password: (the password is Wheeler)
><Welcome to Peter's FTP site. Watch those funky Macintosh file
><    names and use wildcards if spaces keep you locked out!

hmmmmm  i had been on here before, but i tried this morning (after seeing
that there were some new pics) and could not get on with  offroad/wheeler.

does it work for you today?

thanks!

leonard

- -- 
  Leonard Lauria    Leonard@speedy.cc.uky.edu, Leonard@ukcc.uky.edu
  Sr. Systems Prog. University of Kentucky Computing Center, Lexington, Ky.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 07:30:14 -0600
From: cschamau@massive.Mines.Colorado.EDU
Subject: more images (passwd)

My notes say the password is "wheeling" NOT "wheeler". I
haven't tried it in the last week or so, but it worked prior
to that.

Connie Schamaun                         70 Jeepster Commando
Colorado School of Mines
cschamau@mines.colorado.edu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 10:51:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Rick Colombo <COLOMBO@fndcd.fnal.gov>
Subject: more images (passwd)

>My notes say the password is "wheeling" NOT "wheeler". I
>haven't tried it in the last week or so, but it worked prior
>to that.

Sorry about the password.  Also, if my example was clear/correct, you must 
set your type to binary (type binary) before you get a gif/jpg file.

       _/_/    _/  _/      _/_/    
     _/ _/     _/_/      _/ _/      Rick Colombo  colombo@bronco.fnal.gov
   _/_/_/      _/      _/_/_/
      _/     _/_/         _/        1980 Bronco + 1976 CJ-7 + dune buggy
     _/    _/  _/        _/

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 08:18:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: Red Rock Canyon

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994, Al Kiecker wrote:

> I used to live in the California desert, China Lake Naval Weapons Center
> to be specific. Northeast of Lancaster (I forget the highway, 14 maybe ???)
> was an area called Red Rock Canyon. If we are talking about the same thing, 
> thats quite a long way from Las Vegas. Thanks for the suggestion though.
>>              installed, or simply re-enforce what is already there?
No, it's not the same place. There is a Red Rock Canyon by Las Vegas. 

   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 9:26 EDT
From: Mark_Goodale@vos.stratus.com
Subject: Toyota Questions...

> I have heard more then once about cranking up the torsion bars,
> is this good for the suspension?  Any downsides?>
> Thanks
> - - Jim O.

Jim I have a 89 4Runner with 33's on it. Originally I had a 2 inch
bodi-lift with the torsion bars cranked and add-a-leafs. Last week I replaced
the 2 inch bodi-lift with a 3 inch lift, and FINALLY cranked down the torsion
bars and removed those horrible add-aleafs...... I highly recommend you do
not crank trhe torsion bars. The truck will ride horribly (at least mine
did).

My $.02 worth,
Mark                                    (Digest mode)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 8:50:52 +1000
From: Erik Lecis <erik@yarra.pyramid.com.au>
Subject: Toyota Questions...

> >2. 1992 v-6 extra cab bought new in Sept 1992. Had an antenna rattle
> >(warranty) & the rubber steering stops keep coming off, causing a squeak at
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
> Its just designed that way and any material used will fall off,
> or apart.  The bump stops on my '93 look more like hard plastic
> then rubber.
Yep. On my 90 Diesel, they're made from hard plastic, and the squeaks started
about 6 months after I bought it. The dealer "fixed" the problem by applying
grease to the steering stops and I now do likewise.

- - Erik.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 94 14:14:01 PDT
From: brycerw@sanjuan.uvic.ca (Robert Bryce)
Subject: TTB - was Re: Axle Trusses

> But it's interesting to note that some of the 4x4 mags 
> have recently commented how well the TTB setup works, especially in slow, 
> deliberate trail work. That's been my experience as well.

Interesting...  That's not the impression I got.  I remember (still have)
reviews comparing Ford's TTB with Chevy's old solid axle setup (pre-'88),
and all the 3 major offroad magazines talked like the TTB setup was simply
the best - none better, ever.  Praise galore.  But now with Chevy's
independent front-end, and Dodge's redesigned solid axle front-end, the
magazines started mentioning things about things like alignment difficulties,
and wierd bump-steer characteristics, wierd tire wear from Ford's TTB.  So
it wasn't quite ideal after all.

We had a F250-HD 4X4.  TTB, with leafs.  Good-looking truck.  Had no
problems with the front end at all - no complaints.  Figure the system has
been around long enough it can't be that bad at all.  Too bad the whole truck
was a lemon.  But boy, would that thing ever go through snow!  Wow!

I also have a 4X4 mag when the Jeep Cherokee (downsized) was first
introduced.  They couldn't get over the ride quality - to the point they
said they had to actually check underneath expecting independent suspension,
and instead found a solid axle.  On the other hand, Toyota's independent
front-end is reported to be quite stiff, rough.  I came to 2 conclusions from
this:
	1.)     lots of the talk in the magazines is just that - talk.  I
		only look at what I consider to be facts - specs, times,
		stats, dyno tests (though can't they be fudged too?) etc.,
		and ignore the opinions on ride, interior etc - I'll make my
		own decision.
	2.)     Whether solid axle, independent, TTB, or XYZ, any and every
		manufacturer is capable of producing (and giving us) the ride
		they want to - whether rough, smooth, mushy, or whatever.

- --Rob

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 14:58:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: TTB - was Re: Axle Trusses

On Mon, 27 Jun 1994, Robert Bryce wrote:

> > But it's interesting to note that some of the 4x4 mags 
> > have recently commented how well the TTB setup works, especially in slow, 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 12 lines)]
> magazines started mentioning things about things like alignment difficulties,
> and wierd bump-steer characteristics, wierd tire wear from Ford's TTB.  So
> it wasn't quite ideal after all.

I never said it was an ideal setup - there is probably no "ideal" setup. 
However, a couple of the mags mentioned how well the TTB setop worked in 
certain circumstances - in fact, one mag noted that for slow trail work 
the TTB was superior to the IFS in the Toyota. They also made it clear 
that, when the road opened up, the Toyota was superior at higher speeds.

>       1.)     lots of the talk in the magazines is just that - talk.  I
>               only look at what I consider to be facts - specs, times,
>               stats, dyno tests (though can't they be fudged too?) etc.,
>               and ignore the opinions on ride, interior etc - I'll make my
>               own decision.

I've seen specs that were wrong as well.

Bottom line is, make your own choice based on your needs. There are very 
few "bad" 4x4's out there - even the worst are pretty good.

   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

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Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 23:10:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sheldon Belinkoff <belinkof@netcom.com>
Subject: wanted for '94 Pathfinder: Brush/Nerf bars sold in Toronto

On Sat, 25 Jun 1994, Luis Lopes wrote:

> Hi all!
> Are Grizzlies any good? Can anyone recommend another mgfr?
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> Are Grizzlies any good? Can anyone recommend another mgfr?
> I read in the 4x4 archives that Smittybilt weren't so hot.
I am not happy with my SmittyBilt brush guard, and can't wait to get it 
off my truck. I don't like the finish, the design, the quality of the 
welds, and, most of all, I didn't like the service I got from the company.
I will never buy another SmittyBilt product again.

Everyone I know that has a Grizzly product (2 people, not much of a 
sampling) has been satisfied. In my dealings with the company I've always 
been treated well. While I can't personally attest to the quality of 
their products, I'm sure going to call them when next I need something 
that they may stock.

   ___________________________
  |                           |
  |    Shel Belinkoff         |
  |    belinkof@netcom.com    |
  |___________________________|

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 16:46:47 -0400
From: mjv@greenwich.com (Mark Vanston)
Subject: Winches

I am looking to purchase a winch for my CJ, since I have a dual optima
battery set up I think I should be O.K. for current drain, but I am confused by
the numerous choices available from Ramsey, Warn, Superwinch etc. Anyone who has 
a winch and could help, I would appreciate it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 23:14:01 EDT
From: BNDU67A@prodigy.com  (MR MICHAEL J DUDZIAK)

help

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The views expressed in offroad are those of the individual authors only.

End of Offroad Digest
******************************

 ***  End of Forwarded Message  ***

-------

------------------------------

From: Craig Murray <craigp@ocs.cpsg.com.au>
Subject: Side Slopes
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 9:50:05 EST

Hello all,
                With all this talk about side slopes, thought I would clear
this up.

        The safe operating angle for a series 1 was quoted by the factory
to be 30 degrees, but the vehicle would not tip over until 45 degrees.
Now since all other Land Rovers have a heavier chassie, and a wider track
than the series 1, therefore their tip over angle is greater.
So generally don't worry till the vehicle is on about 45 degrees, unless 
speed, or slipping side ways is involved.

        I have only seen two Landies roll, once when I was in my dad's
mates series IIA when I was about 13, and I can remember thinking, that if
I stuck my arm out the window, I could touch the ground!, and that was before
it started to roll, and the other one was when my sister decided to hit
the brakes going down a rather long, slippery hill, the car went side ways
and slide right down the hill, and at the bottom, the wheels dug into the mud,
and the momentum sent the vehicle over onto its side.  

        So you only need to worry, when it gets to around 40 degrees.
And if side slopes scare you, just say to your self '45'.

==============================================================================
Craig Murray                                            1955 Series 1 86"
mail: craigp@ocs.cpsg.com.au                            2.25 desiel (Soon!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 18:55:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: LROVER@u.washington.edu
Subject: Moving Sale-Land Rover Parts

I'm moving into one of those fancy new apt's w/o any storage 
space and the signifacant other says it's outa here.
Here is a short list of what's gotta go.
Roll bar, External sun visor, tailgate w/hardware, Zeinth carb-parts,
it's rebuildable, soos the alt. I have.  Also, a Safari Roof, Dlx. dished
hood, and a Land Rover trailer 109 box bed it's towable panel sides an
all roof has a tropical skin on it.  Everything is reasonably priced
considering that it's all used.  Except, if it's not mine. Please feel
free to call or e-mail me hm#(206)365-3514.  Other little things are 
also available. 
HELP I'm loseing my garage!!!!
LROVER@U.WASHINGTON.EDU

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 23:11:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: LROVER@u.washington.edu
Subject: Defender 90/Late model SIII Parts Wanted?

I'm taking this RHD stuff pretty seriously here I'd also like to
upgrade my interior of my SIII 88. So if anyone in the UK or there 
abouts could locate and price dash and interior parts for me I 
would be extremely excieted about it. :)
Tell me what you know..
Benjamin Freeman
LROVER@U.WASHINGTON.EDU
'73-SIII 88

------------------------------

From: "Keith Coman" <BAKC@giraffe.ru.ac.za>
Date:          Thu, 30 Jun 1994 08:56:00 GMT+0200
Subject:       Re: Frame Lore

> Also - to add to the discussion of frames - I understand that on a
> Lightweight the gearbox crossmember unbolts from the frame so that you can
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> somebody out there posted a hint on how to get the tranny out without doing
> this.)

    Out here in South Africa cutting off the gearbox cross member and 
then making up a set of suitable flanges to allow it to be bolted to 
the frame is a VERY popular modification aimed at taking the ouch out 
of dropping the tranny.  Properly done, it incurs no unhappy side-
effects -- frame distortion, etc.

    FWIW, pulling the Landie Series 2A gearbox tip without all this 
hassle.... 
1.
Remove front seats, drive shafts, clutch op mech -- esp the jolly 
trans brake assy! etc. 
2.
Unbolt tranny from rear of engine.
3.
Take a sheet of *heavy* plywood and cut it to fit snugly between the 
gearbox crossmember and that immediately under the back of the engine 
-- ideally will be a tight drive fit. Support the center of this 
sheet with a suitable stand.  The wood sheet should be absolutely 
flush with the tops of the 2 crossmembers.  Doesn't have to be 
terribly wide -- about a foot across or so.
4.
Unbolt yr gearbox at the two mountings at the back, remove 'em  and 
lower gently down -- use a good bottle\trolley jack to raise the 
back of the gearbox.  Back of the engine (flywheel case) will rest on 
the front crossmember and the gearbox will lie on your sheet of wood.
5.
DRAIN THE OIL out of the tranny!
6.
Carefully work the tranny off the back of the engine.  You'll reach a 
point where the tranny pops off and can now be carefully slid to the 
rear.  The wood sheet acts like a tray by preventing it from dropping
down at the front.  To remove completely, push the tranny slowly 
backwards -- the point will come when the rear end starts to pitch 
down past the gearbox crossmember.  Once its touching the ground at 
the back, hop round, get underneath and a bit of pulling and wiggling 
will have it out and on the ground. (I'm assuming the Landie is 
standing on its wheels.) 
    To merely replace a clutchplate -- moving the tranny back on yr 
wooden tray about 8-12" will do.
7.
Reinstallation.  Get underneath and lift the bellhousing up until its
resting on the gearbox x-member.  Gently lift the back of the gearbox 
up whilst pushing.  With luck, the bellhousing will easily start to 
glide forwards over the wooden sheet.  A minute later and the tranny 
will be up nuzzling close to the back of the engine.  Wiggle a bit to 
line up with the engine and voila! -- engine and tranny married up.  
Spin on the bellhousing nuts and bolts.  Raise the back of the gearbox
-- bottle jack -- insert and bolt down the gearbox mountings.  Knock 
out the piece of plywood (stash for some other time!).  Refit all the 
ancilleries. Done.

    Doing a gearbox-out job this way is a pretty easy one-man 
venture: an extra pair of hands is a delightful luxury it available 
tho!! -- basically having a piece of gearbox support between the 2 x-
members makes all the difference.
Good luck!
Keith Coman

 * Dept of Management, Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa *
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

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  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 

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