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From: alice@atd.crane.navy.mil
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 07:56:16 +0000
Subject: 2A MiscellaneousQuestions

			Hello LR List!
I am considering the purchase of one of several 2A 88's available. 
A number of questions ...if these are long in answering or if FAQ 
available, feel free to email direct.  

I hear of a "green book" for "the word" on 2A servicing.  I once 
think I saw this book ...as I remember, it consists of at least two 
books.  It was priced at $130.  Ummm ...is there a less expensive 
alternative?  I mean, is it "legally" available in a copied form at 
less expense?  While I want the original bound character, I 
minimally need and can afford only the basic information.  
I plan on getting a Haynes as well ...but, at least for my Triumph, 
these manuals fall short of the factory workshop manual.  I will 
trade a Robert Bentley Triumph Spitfire manual for a LR 2A manual!

I read of regalvanizing bits and pieces now and again.  Where can 
this be done?  Is it typically expensive?  Are there differing 
"qualities" of hot zinc dip galvanization?

One candidate vehicle has worn out swivel balls.  Is this a major 
problem to rectify?  Is it expensive to do it yourself?  It looks as 
if the parts cost is a couple hundred dollars.  

Often you guys speak of ordering parts direct from the UK.  Is this 
hard to do ...I mean, is it as simple as calling with a credit
card number?  Are there dutied assessed ...by whom, when and where?
If I compare prices, say from RN or BP versus a UK supplier 
advertizing on LROI, what coefficients must I factor in to fairly 
compare getting these bits to my doorstep?  Example ...2A gearbox 
rebuilding is a hot topic this day ...it was stated that all parts 
could be had in the UK.  How do I do this?  Is UK quality superior 
to the "third world low quality" often cited.  Or are they really the 
same parts, just more available in the UK?  

Which brings me to another beef.  Is there more to "Land Rover 
Genuine Parts" than a fancy sticker and higher price?        

I have three parts supplier catalogues: RN, BP and AB.  How do these 
compare?  Who else should I consider?

Hey, while I am at it, I'll keep on typing...
I saw a neato 88 roof rack last season at ECR in Warren ME.  Square 
tubing, welded corners, galvanized ...and it looks very similar to 
the BP custom roof rack advertized on their inside back catalogue 
cover.  I am still trying to verify this rack ...but in the meantime, 
can anyone comment on this rack ...do you have it, know it, love it?
All comments invited ...as always!  Mark  

	[Offical Land Rover Service manuals are with out comparison,
	(sort of like Unix man pages :-)
	the haynes 'nice' but you'd be better to put that money toward
	the real thing.  By the way, you can also order most of the
	Land Rover Service manuals (not to mention, VW, Audi, and many
	others) directly from the US Importer/Publisher, Robert Bentley
	in Cambridge, Ma. (two subway stops from where I'm sitting),
	I think they're at 1000 Mass. Ave.) Sometimes it is the same 
	price as the after market or dealers, sometimes those places
	mark the price up...-wpc]

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From: kevin.murphy@ps.ge.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:15:25 -0500
Subject: Undercoating Firewall

I was prepping my firewall, floorboards, etc. to be undercoated when a
friend mentioned to me that I might want to try Roofing Tar as it is more
durable, thicker, and cheaper than the generic undercoating sprays which I
was planning to use.  I realize that something like Rhino Lining or Linex -
which are the sprayable bedliner like materials - would be the most
preferable, but $$$ always comes first.

Has anyone had any experience or thoughts regarding using roofing tar as an
undercoat?

Thanks,

Murph
'67 IIA 88"

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From: "Jeff and Chris Jackson" <jcjcj88@email.msn.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:15:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Ray's Experimental

>f this vehicle has been sitting for several years there's no telling how
>the stering would behave, especially if the relay is frozen.  I would
>definitely put it on a trailer or dolly.

>David Hope
>64llA    - my wife calls it Camilla, I call it Tornado on account of it's
>speed and destructive tendencies.  Are either of these names taken?

It look's like you win with Tornado, David.  My SIII's named Camilla (also
named by my wife, who thought the car was rather homely and may break up our
marriage, hence Camilla).  The name was chosen prior to the unfortunate
death of the Princess.

Rgds,

Jeff

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From: David Scheidt <david@infocom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:30:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Undercoating Firewall

On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 kevin.murphy@ps.ge.com wrote:

:Has anyone had any experience or thoughts regarding using roofing tar as an
:undercoat?

Yeah. Don't.  It doesn't work.  It doesn't stay flexible, it isn't self
healing, and it doesn't stick perfectly, so water gets underneath causing
rust.  Waxoil, or something of its ilk is a much better solution.  The
rubbery sprayon things don't last forever, and are hard to reapply.

David

:
:Thanks,
:
:Murph
:'67 IIA 88"

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From: "Jeff and Chris Jackson" <jcjcj88@email.msn.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:11 -0800
Subject: New Tires

A few weeks back John Tackley posted a recommendation for the 49 USD
235/85R16 remoulds from Ray Carr Tires in Virginia. I bought a set of the
mud terrains and had them shipped to Connecticut.  Great service, and the
tires seem well worth the money.  The guy who mounted them at the tire shop
up here was impressed with the quality.  Only time will tell, but I'm happy
so far.

What a difference the 16" tires and wheels make.  Completely transformed
Camilla's looks and offroad manners.

BTW: Rust-o-leum antique white is a near-perfect substitute for limestone.
I didn't feel like mixing up real paint in this weather, so I opted for
spray cans to touch up the wheels.  Can't tell the difference.

Rgds,

Jeff Jackson
73 SIII 88
Moving to Seattle this summer - any clubs out there?

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From: David Scheidt <david@infocom.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:34:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Xfer case intermediate shaft removal

On Wed, 30 Dec 1998 CIrvin1258@aol.com wrote:

:In a message dated 98-12-29 22:16:04 EST, you write:
:
:<< First of all see if you can rotate it to make sure its not "frozen" I
: use a claw hammer .Tuck the claws under the slot and work it out. Do not
:apply
: too much brute force as it is possible to break the top piece off. Work it
: around.
: >>
:
:Rotating it is a must, to get the retaining plate off. So, if you can rotate
:it, then the only real problem will be getting a grip on it because of all the
:oil! (no pun intendid)
:

The gears turn, so mustn't the shaft?  Or am I supposed to be rotating the
shaft and the retaining plate?  (which means i have to remove that damn
stud)

David

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From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 08:46:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Xfer case intermediate shaft removal 

>I am in the process of taking apart a transmission that I plan on rebuilding.  
>I have just spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to remove the 
>transfer case intermediate shaft. 

david
I flet the other answers were a llittle unclear. first of all do not grind 
ANYTHING on or in the gearbox. there is a slot in the intermediate shaft just 
pround of the rear face of the casing. the shaft is removed by levering in this 
slot with a prybar of some sort. first though you must undo a locking tab which 
is held on by a single nut and lockwasher. as has already been stated, turning 
the shaft may prove helpful in breaking its 30 year fit. don't pry too har or 
you can break off the piece of the shaf aft of the slot. mine was already like 
that actually but there was still enough left for me to get it out using the 
proper technique.

failing this there is always the vise-grip technique...

later
dave "bobeck is NOT shite"

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From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 08:49:27 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: Xfer case intermediate shaft removal 

>The gears turn, so mustn't the shaft?  Or am I supposed to be rotating the 
>shaft and the retaining plate?  (which means i have to remove that damn 
>stud)

a: you don't have to remove the stud

and

b: the retaining plate can be swung out of the way

c: the gears ride on roller bearings on a stationary shaft. just like the 
layshaft on my overdrive which is now blue...(the shaft not the OD, and not the 
balls, that is trevor)

later
dave with blue shaft not balls

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From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 08:59:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Undercoating Firewall 

>I was prepping my firewall, floorboards, etc. to be undercoated when a friend 
>mentioned to me that I might want to try Roofing Tar as it is more durable, 
>thicker, and cheaper than the generic undercoating sprays which I was planning 
>to use.  I realize that something like Rhino Lining or Linex - 

ack!
Don't do it. the best protection you can provide to your firewall would be to 
spray waxoyl up the doorposts. The rest of the firewall is easyily accessible 
enough to simply give it a rinse every few months in the winter, and touch up 
any bare areas with new paint. I would strongly advise against using something 
like roofing tar which is not really designed to withstand enigne bay 
chemicals, and will serve mostly to hide whtever ruat is occuring. There is 
absolutely no need in hell to udndercoat the floorboards as they are aluminum 
and are not subject to the kind of corrsosion that undercoating is used to 
prevent. these cars will alst alot longer with a little maintenance.  htere is 
no w"wonder goo" that you can apply once and then walk awya from it. you have 
to keep after the corrosion or it will come right back at you. ask Adfrian, he 
takes his cars apart every two years!

stnadard autoparts store unvdercosating spray will not work either, it is 
better for touching up areas that already have undercoating, like volvo's.

later
dave "and no feathers either" b

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From: Jon Haskell <kb9cml@att.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:30:12 -0500
Subject: Nigel...Good God What have I done!

Thanks to all who offered advice on preserving (insert the "N" word), my
new D90.

Now to the more important matter...the name. When I picked the truck up
from the previous owners and told them that I had named the truck
(insert the "N" word), the wife who was from the UK, looked at her
husband and they both snickered. I asked if there was something wrong
with the name (insert the "N" word) and they responded that it was a
name normally associated with someone who is...gosh how do I say
this...."light in their loafers". 

Not being homophobic I set this aside, but now with this most recent
revelation regarding a communicable disease associated with the name,
maybe I should consider renaming (insert the "N" word), to something
else.

Jon Haskell
Westfield, IN 46074

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From: "richard a. nicotra" <nicotra@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:13:09 -0500
Subject: re: truck cab mounting questions

Does anybody have a source for the special mounting bracket and rear plate
to mount a truck cab
to an 88 (of course a used one would be preferred).

thanks,  

rick

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From: alice@atd.crane.navy.mil
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:55:16 +0000
Subject: 2A 88 Dual Tanks? ...PTO Winch? ...Help?

	Hello LR List!	Two more items.

One candidate 2A 88 has dual tanks ...well, at least it has two tank 
fillers.  I expected the standard filler and cap located aft of the 
right side door ...but there is another identical one on the left 
side as well ...same look and location!  Is this a common feature?

A friend of mine has a PTO driven front mounted Koenig winch 
leftover from his 2A 109 which he sold years ago.  I am interested 
but I question the value of a PTO driven versus electric driven 
winch.  So ...when is a PTO winch superior to an electric winch?  
Should his 2A 109 PTO adaptor bolt right onto any 2A 88 transfer 
case?  What is a fair price range for this winch (good working 
condition) with PTO and bumper mounting hardware?

If this topic has been beat to death before, please respond direct
or send me off to FAQ land.  Comments always appreciated!  Mark

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From: John Gerhardt <JGerhardt@deltacp.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:53:28 -0500
Subject: RE: The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

Please take me off the mailing list, Thanks

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From: "Russell G. Dushin" <rgdushin@blackcat.cat.syr.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:55:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Nigel...Good God What have I done!

***
Now to the more important matter...the name. When I picked the truck up
from the previous owners and told them that I had named the truck (insert
the "N" word), the wife who was from the UK, looked at her husband and
they both snickered. I asked if there was something wrong with the name
(insert the "N" word) and they responded that it was a name normally
associated with someone who is...gosh how do I say this...."light in their
loafers". 

Not being homophobic I set this aside, but now with this most
recent revelation regarding a communicable disease associated with the
name, maybe I should consider renaming (insert the "N" word), to something
else.
***

Not quite sure about Nigel's sexual preference but I can at least
assure you that he's HIV negative...

How's about "Randy?"

rd/nige

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From: bobnsueb@maxinet.com (Bob and Sue Bernard)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:16:30 -0800
Subject: alpine windows

Hi All,
I just cut the holes to add the alpine windows to a plain 88 top, getting
ready to paint it.
Now I'm wondering again if anyone has an 88 with the alpine windows and no
sunshield. I know I've seen them on series. What I would like to know is
how does the headliner deal with the windows?

On a Safari roof the headliner is held on the edges by a metal strip that
is held by the bolts to the standoffs for the sun shield. 
Since I don't have the bolts I don't see what would hold a strip. So what I
wonder is if the headliner is cutout for the windows then continues down as
on a standard top.
More or less what did the factory do?

Thanks
Bob Bernard

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From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 11:43:55 -0500
Subject: Re: alpine windows 

>Now I'm wondering again if anyone has an 88 with the alpine windows and no 
>sunshield.
>More or less what did the factory do?

factory never made such a set up. sunsheet and no alpines, yes, but the other 
way around is usually am owner mod.

defender SW's have alpine windows with no sunsheet.

 I believe LaSalle trim may be able to come up with something to solve your 
need for a headliner, but at some cost. why don't you just skip the headliner 
back there, or glue some carpet down, or do the trop top style but use low 
profile bolts, or something else to hold the strips of metal down.

cheers
dave

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From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:50:09 +0100
Subject: Re: Undercoating Firewall

As Dave Bobeck rightly states - this subject is really one of my
favourite hobby-horses!

Undercoating, undersealing, and such habits are (IMHO) a waste of time
and money, and serve only as a time bomb of false security waiting to
explode. For years you will be lulled into the sense of security that
everything is hunky-dory, and then, when you least expect it, you will
poke at the underseal when repairing someting else and discover that
behind all that gooey gunk, a veritable rust garden has grown beyond
your imagination. Now you will have two problems - to repair the rust,
and to do it with all that gunk in the way, which prevents safe welding
and rustpainting. Don't do it!

Land rovers are just like anything else built in steel (the steel parts
anyway) steel rusts - so it can be galvanised or painted - preferably
both.

I have just installed a new firewall on my 88", I had it sand blasted
and metalised (sprayed with fluid zinc) then liberal coats of rust paint
(the red primer stuff so popular with agricultural machinery factories)
then a few coats of enamel green paint.

I have also done this to the upriggers which hold the firewall to the
chassis, and the radiator panel (this is otherwise always a problem at
the bottom). Cavities in the firewall have been filled with rustpaint,
then preserved with a waxoyl like substance. (Carlfon)

My undercarriage philosophy is simple - clean it, paint it, and wash it
regularly. When new rust starts to appear, you will see it immediately -
clean it again and repaint.

A word on paint. I have tried the oft-praised Hammerite on my 88" - a
much more expensive paint which is supposed to last longer. Poppycock!
This vehicle was painted in June/July and is showing rust on all hubs
and axles already, whilst the 109" which i am disassembling right now
was painted over three years ago with a simple black enamel marine grade
machine paint, and it still looks good. So I'm sticking to the cheaper
paint in the future.

Undersealing is a snake oil of the modern world - a way of convincing
the unsuspecting car owner that his car will fetch a higher price when
he sells it in three years. For the new car owner or second user this
may work, but for us who will still own the car when all the problems
raise their ugly head, it's a bane.

That's my experience at least!

Adrian Redmond

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From: "Wise Owl Innovation Incorporated" <wiseowl@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:04:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Xfer case intermediate shaft removal 

Dave if all else fails warm up  the area around the shaft with a propane
torch. The aluminum expands faster than the steel and the shaft pulls out
easily. We have to do this here sometimes. Ray

----------
> From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
> To: lro@playground.sun.com
> Subject: Re: Xfer case intermediate shaft removal 
> Date: Wednesday, December 30, 1998 5:46 AM
> >I am in the process of taking apart a transmission that I plan on

rebuilding.  
> >I have just spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to remove
the 
> >transfer case intermediate shaft. 
> david
> I flet the other answers were a llittle unclear. first of all do not
grind 
> ANYTHING on or in the gearbox. there is a slot in the intermediate shaft
just 
> pround of the rear face of the casing. the shaft is removed by levering
in this 
> slot with a prybar of some sort. first though you must undo a locking tab
which 
> is held on by a single nut and lockwasher. as has already been stated,
turning 
> the shaft may prove helpful in breaking its 30 year fit. don't pry too
har or 
> you can break off the piece of the shaf aft of the slot. mine was already
like 
> that actually but there was still enough left for me to get it out using
the 

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From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:27:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Happy Holidays! - Off to MA

, and if I'm real motivated, I'll be

> blasting corrosion out of my bed, and patching up the holes.
>  - Peter
> Good Lord Peter! you must have some strange sleeping habits.

John and Muddy

> blasting corrosion out of my bed, and patching up the holes.

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From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:24:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Distributor

William Leacock wrote:

> Just like to add my 2 cents worth to this debate. I find it difficult to
> believe that the distributor could be fitted with the drive dog

That's the problem.  Many people don't think it's possible but it does happen!
I have been there and done that as they say.
So suspend your disbelief , get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness my
son
Be kind to old ladies, small children and owners of lesser 4x4. Walk tall in the
knowledge that you have seen the light and defy the Prince of Darkness.
Here endeth the first lesson.
John and Muddy

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From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:43:10 -0400
Subject: Re: scottish walk (no LR content)

TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:

> Well my house mate always said I was VERY suggestible.
> After reading the post I had this sudden urge to return to Edinburgh and
> window shop along the royal mile.  Maybe listen to street singers, stop
> in a pub for a Guinness steak pie and a pint of White Thistle ale,
> photograph the castle at sunset and do some night photography along the
> royal mile.
> My imagination had a wonderful day on a Scottish walk.  A bit chilly this
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 14 lines)]
> Thanks for the excuse to day dream  as if I ever needed any  ;^)
> TeriAnn Wakeman

Chilly!  Ye dinna ken Chilly til Ye've had a good Hielan breeze up yer kilt,
Lassie.

John and Muddy

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From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:31:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Electric Rover, for gods sake why mess with it???

Faye and Peter Ogilvie wrote:

>         This is something that just doesn't make sense.  You've got a classic
> vehicle that is appreciating in value as it becomes more scarce.  You want
> to take this treasure and mess it up.  I know your conscience will feel
> better by keeping your local environment free of those nasty petrol
> pollutants.  In reality though, you've just exported the pollution to the
> location of the electrical plant where the recharge juice will come from.
> Meanwhile the batteries will have to be replaced periodically so all that
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 36 lines)]
> really a non polluter in the real world???
> Aloha Peter.

Amen  Peter.    Battery electric vehicles are a  technology that is going 
nowhere.
  John and Muddy

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From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 98 12:28:42 -0500
Subject: Re[2]: Electric Rover, for gods sake why mess with it??? 

>Battery electric vehicles are a  technology that is going nowhere.

at least not anywhere more than sixty miles away that is...

later
dave

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From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:39:44 -1000
Subject: Re: Undercoating Firewall

Adrian wrote:
>A word on paint. I have tried the oft-praised Hammerite on my 88" - a
>much more expensive paint which is supposed to last longer. Poppycock!
>This vehicle was painted in June/July and is showing rust on all hubs
>and axles already, whilst the 109" which i am disassembling right now
>was painted over three years ago with a simple black enamel marine grade
>machine paint, and it still looks good.

Ihave come accross a brand of paint here in HI for the first time.  Company
is Zynolyte.  Pant is labled "Marine Epoxy Enamel".  Now there are no
additives that you need to measure and mix before use, so it doesn't seem
'epoxy' like in my mind, but man is this stuff solid.  Nothing special about
the spray paint, but I purchased a quart of the brush on stuff.  Goes on no
thicker then other enamels, but does a great job of leveling, no brush
marks.  When it drys, it is incredably durable.  I had to remove it in a few
spots for some welding, wire wheeling took forever, resorted to a grinder.
Our landlord said he used the same stuff when he painted the fencing around
the house.  Most of the fence is made up of rebar (very versitile stuff
rebar) and was last painted 12 years ago.  Still looks great.
In September I bought a $500 junker to get around in.  Slapped the paint in
a bunch of places to get her through the State Inspection (MOT), planned on
doing the repairs as time permitted.  Paint filled in a bunch of rust holes,
up to 1/8".  After I cut out the floor boards and replaced them, I left a
piece of the paint repaired rusty old floor out side.  Been sitting there
for 3 months (I know that that long), along the edges where cut the rust is
there, but in other areas, no bubbling yet.

>Undersealing is a snake oil of the modern world -
>For the new car owner or second user this
>may work, but for us who will still own the car when all the problems
>raise their ugly head, it's a bane.
>That's my experience at least!
>machine paint, and it still looks good.
Mine too.  Stuff is next to impossible to remove 100%.  Constantly catching
on fire when doing any welding in patches.  When I was working in the
restoration shop, saw bunches of cars where you look underneath and
everything appears fine, but start poking and find spots where the underseal
worked like a band-aid holding the moisture against the steel.

Pete

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From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:49:12 -1000
Subject: Re: Tranny pops out of gear.

Thaks to all for the info.  Looks like I need add another item to the
growing task list.
I am starting to suspect some sort of conspiracy here.  Every time I ask the
list a simple question, you guys add more time and money to what I had
thought would be a simple little project   ;-)
Good thing we are on a quaranteed 3 year tour otherwise I would never get it
back together in time and have to ship it home in boxes, haha
Hope everybody has a happy and SAFE New Years Eve.
Pete

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From: Paul Quin <Paul_Quin@pml.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:09:33 -0800
Subject: RE: 2A 88 Dual Tanks? ...PTO Winch? ...Help?

Sounds like someone has done a very neat installation of a second gas tank.
I don't think that this was ever a 'factory feature'.  Anybody know for
sure?  Most secondary tanks under the port seat that I have seen have their
filler under the seat.

I just bought a used Koenig winch myself.  C$500.00 but missing it's drive
shaft.   Haven't installed it yet.  There are many pluses and minuses re
electric Vs PTO.   PTO winches just seem more naturally suited to Land
Rovers to me.  You've got the PTO on the transmission (and front crank), why
not use it?

The manual for the Koenig winch is on the web at:
http://www.off-road.com/LR_FAQ/Series/k1.jp

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From: "Frank Elson" <frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:21:01 -0000
Subject: Re: rolling chassis

>>Thought for the week....  If you are going to go out and drink "adult
beverages" and lacked the foresight to have a designated driver....remember
that it might seem a bit uncomfortable to crawl ito the back of the rover
and take a nap but it's a whole buch more comfortable than spending the
night in Jail with some guy named bubba.<<

In the UK if you had yr car keys with you you would still be done for drunk
driving, even if you were asleep in the back!!

BTW are you STILL after that rolling chassis, Russ? Just come over and get
one then. I'll put you up and take you to Dick Graham's....

try the same question on uk-lro@playground.sun.com
I dunno anyone who deals with him.....

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

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From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:24:35 -1000
Subject: Fairey and Toro Overdrives

Hello,
someone had asked the other day about the Toro OD.
I finally completed my update, the OD manuals and soon both Koenig Winch
manuals and the Webber 1bbl info sheet are/will be at:
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Outback/4287/smanuals.htm
Pete

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From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:34:52 -1000
Subject: Re: 2A 88 Dual Tanks? ...PTO Winch? ...Help?

>Is this a common feature?

Uhhh, no, sounds like a dangerous SPOT.  If you remove all the
'unauthorized' bits and send them to me I will make sure they get 'disposed'
of properly.

>So ...when is a PTO winch superior to an electric winch?
When the engine is running.  Seriously, pound-fer-pound the only time an
electric will out perform a PTO is when the engine dies.  The Koenig has a
8,000lb 'continuous' rating.  All electrics are 'intermediate' load rated.

>Should his 2A 109 PTO adaptor bolt right onto any 2A 88 transfer
>case?
Yep, no problem.  You can find the instructions at:
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Outback/4287/smanuals.htm
Hopefully I will have the pictures showing the way to adjust the winch up
soon.

>What is a fair price range for this winch (good working
>condition) with PTO and bumper mounting hardware?
That is real hard to answer.  The winch is NLA.  Does it come with
everything?  Drive shaft and, this is a biggee, modified exhaust pipe?  The
pipe needs to bend around the PTO drive shaft.  Any good exhaust shop can
make one for you, but this is something to through into the equation.
Aloha
Pete

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From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:36:58 -1000
Subject: Re: rolling chassis

>>>Thought for the week....  If you are going to go out and drink "adult
>beverages" and lacked the foresight to have a designated driver....remember
>that it might seem a bit uncomfortable to crawl ito the back of the rover
>and take a nap but it's a whole buch more comfortable than spending the
>night in Jail with some guy named bubba.<<
>In the UK if you had yr car keys with you you would still be done for drunk
>driving, even if you were asleep in the back!!

Most US States are they same way.  Good lawyer may be able to beat it in
court, but that doesn't prevent the night in jail, car towed, and $$$$$ for
the lawyer.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "C. Marin Faure" <faurecm@halcyon.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:48:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Longevity Advice for LR's

From: Jon Haskell <kb9cml@att.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:54:16 -0500
Subject: Longevity Advice for LR's

>Hi all.....after seeing my first Land Rover on B/W television shows from
Africa over 30 years ago, I finally got a D90 SW. Having restored a
Model A Ford some years ago, I got first hand knowledge of where
problems occur overtime.

>I would like to keep this truck until I die or start drooling and get
shoved in a retirement home. I thought you guys who have restored old
LR's could give me some advice on trying to perserve "Nigel".

I have never understood this bit about naming vehicles.  To me, if it's a
mass-produced article it doesn't deserve a name.  Only things that took a
real effort to build deserve names in my opinion, like ships and boats and
space shuttles.  Something that was whacked together on an assembly line
is, well, just something that was whacked together on an assembly line.
That's not to say I don't like my Land Rover a lot, but to me, it's just a
very capable tool.  But that's just my opinion, and it carries virtually no
weight in the overall scheme of things.  (Our Grand Banks trawler, for
example, wasn't built on an assembly line and took a fair amount of effort
to put together, so it "deserves" a name.  The dinghy on the stern,
however, was whacked out on an assembly line and so does not have a name.)

Anyway, one of the best things you can do to preserve your Land Rover is
keep it clean.  I know that sounds a strange thing to say for a 4wd, but
dirt traps chemicals and moisture and leads to rust and corrosion.  I have
kept my Series III as clean as I could for the last 25 years, and while the
paint is starting to get pretty thin, there is no serious rust or corrosion
anywhere on the vehicle despite its being in Hawaii the first seven years
of its life.  Even on long trips to the Yukon and British Columbia (back
before the Alaska Highway was paved), I took every opportunity to wash the
accumulated mud and crud off the vehicle.  So ignore the folks who scoff at
keeping a 4wd washed and waxed: their vehicles will have rusted and
corroded away to dust long before your D90 is ready to scrap.

By all means take it out and get it filthy on back roads and logging trails
or whatever, just do a thorough job of cleaning it off when you get home.
Pay particular attention to the chassis and underside of the body.  Wash
out the wheel wells, particularly the reinforcing lip (if there is one)
around the arch: it's a sure trap for dirt.  A good place to clean it is at
one of those self-service car washes that have the long-handled spray
wands.  And wax the paint at least a couple of times a year.  It will help
preserve the paint which is the first line of defense against corrosion on
the aluminum panels and rust on the steel ones.  If your friends laugh at
you for waxing an off-road vehicle, don't let it bother you.  If they
actually knew anything about taking care of machinery, they'd be waxing
their vehicles, too.  Your turn to laugh will come when they have to fork
out big bucks for a re-spray or feel they have to buy a new, ridiculously
priced 4wd because their old one has begun to rust out.

Another thing to keep clean is the engine.  I periodically (every month)
spray down the engines in all my vehicles with Simple Green.  Simple Green
does a terrific job of cutting grease, oil, road dirt, etc. but is not hard
on the plastic or rubber parts in the engine compartment, and is relatively
kind to the environment.  After covering the engine, engine bay, and engine
accessories with Simple Green from a spray bottle, I let it soak a few
minutes and then just hose it all off with fresh water.  As soon as that's
done, I start the engine and let it run for awhile to get rid of any excess
moisture.  As a result, the engine in my 1991 Range Rover, which as just
about 100,000 miles on it and has been on numerous hunting trips far back
on logging and mining roads in eastern Washington and British Columbia as
well has hauling a fishing boat over hundreds of miles of dirt roads every
year or so, looks like it did the day we took delivery of the vehicle.  The
same is true for the engine in my 1982 BMW 633csi, although I've only owned
that vehicle for about six years.  A clean engine runs cooler and problems
like oil, fuel, or coolant leaks are much easier to find.  Plus it makes
working on the engine a hell of a lot more pleasant.

________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
   Seattle, WA

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From: Russ Wilson <rwwilson@mho.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 01:53:29 -0700
Subject: Re: rolling chassis

>>>>Thought for the week....  If you are going to go out and drink "adult
>>beverages" and lacked the foresight to have a designated driver....remember
>	 [ truncated by lro-lite (was 9 lines)]
>>In the UK if you had yr car keys with you you would still be done for drunk
>>driving, even if you were asleep in the back!!
>Most US States are they same way.  Good lawyer may be able to beat it in
>court, but that doesn't prevent the night in jail, car towed, and $$$$$ for
>the lawyer.

In Pa. the law was that as long as the keys were NOT in the ignition you
were o.k.  Good to know that the laws are different on this point in
different areas as I've been known to "take a little snooze" in the back of
the Pig on more than one occassion.

Cheers and a safe night to everyone....

Russ Wilson
Leslie Bittner

"That's just my opinion; I could be wrong...."
				Dennis Miller

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From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:00:53 +0100
Subject: Re: Undercoating Firewall

Dear Kevin!

If you haven't already mounted the firewall and pedal components, here's
a little tip which might appeal to you.

The top of the footwell where the brake and clutch master cylinders and
pedal gear is mounted can be kept much cleaner if you cover it with a
thin rubber mat (mine is about 3mm) so that all spilt fluids and grunge
which accumulates around this area can easily be washed off. I have
covered the entire top footwell area, and folded the rubber down over
the shot vertical face of the footwell - allow the rubber to protrude
about 4mm lower than the vertical face, so that dripping fluids drip
onto the ground and do not run down the footwell.

I glued the rubber on with contact adhesive - use plenty! Make sure the
top bit turns up at the top, so that water cannot get behind it. This
keeps the footwell clean and shiny for years.

Maybe stating the obvious, but if you have time and energy, strip and
paint the pedal mounts before refitting the master cylinders - an
afternoon's work which keeps the bits clean and working fine for years.
I did mine this summer. Right now I'm stripping my 109" which had these
parts stripped, painted and rebuilt nearly 10 years ago - they still
look good - just need a good wash and repaint and they will look like
new.

Wghen i first started rovering, I used to spend a lot of time making the
outside of the car look nice - I tended to ignore the underneath and
under the bonnet - I have slowly and expensivly learnt that the outside
is not so important - but the underneath and inside the motor chamber
is. When all the difficult bits are cleaned, services and painted,
sanding the body and giving it a lick of paint and a few doors seals is
but a weekend's work (believe me - now I paint at least 2 rovers a year,
using little more than a long weekend to do it).

That's the logic - most rebuilds take time and money because of all the
rust and crud - they turn into welding assignments and weeks of
back-ache. If you keep the underside in good condition, then there goes
longer between each rebuild, and the bi-annual coat of paint really
gives you an almost new rover.

I guess that a compressor and a high pressure water jet are the best
tools I have ever invested in, blow the dirt off, keep the underside
clean, and when it's dry, spray WD40 on all bolts. That way things come
apart easily next time. This evening i removed the wings on my 109" -
tey hadn't been removed for over 10 years, but all the bolts came undone
really easily - even the b*tch's on the doorpost.

Anyway - good luck with the new firewall - it really is worth the
trouble - take time to get the wiring loom looking nice eh? :-)

Happy new year!

Adrian Redmond

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From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:20:34 +0100
Subject: A rover by any other name... (would still rust)

I think that mass produced things don't deserve a name, until you have
taken them into your heart and pulled them apart, bit by bit, painted
every piece painstakingly, and reassembled the lot getting a few "bloody
knuckles" in the process and an even bigger overdraft than you expected
to boot.

Having been through this process at least once a year (sometimes twice)
for the last 10 years, I know that by then, the beast of burden deserves
a name, and it's your prerogative to dub it if you so choose.

Let's face it - Land Rover's as supplied by the Solihull Four Wheel
Biscuit Tin company do not last forever - but they have a number of
positive attributes - a classic, timeless design, a simplicity of form
and compositioon which makes them great cars for those who want a car
for keeps. They are sort of addictive.

If they didn't have this sort of "je ne sais quois" thing, then they
would be just like every jap tin on the market, plus they would be
noisy, leaking, rattling and uncomfortable. However, more by luck than
judgement, the old guys back at Solihull hit on a design which is
timeless, and which does embody an image which we all seem to like as
being part of ourselves (maybe it's because we feel like the landed
gentry driving a series...? Maybe it's because everyone else thinks they
are so expensive?)

That little accident of design - long before designers talked of
targetting a market segment - has saved the rover - well not exactly -
it has just made sure that there is a car which will appear to all of us
who love these wagons. So we work on them and keep them running,
laughing at everyone else who thinks that stereo and air-conditioning
are the be-all and end-all of motoring, and those who make an insurance
claim as soon as a simple scratch appears in the bodywork, threatening
their resale value in two years.

It's because of us that Land Rovers last forever. If we all became
rational, budgetwise, cost-conscious motoring consumers, the Series
trucks would rust into oblivion, followed rapidly by their tweed
upholstered coilspring lookalikes.

And our simple reward for this great endeavour which threatens many a
marriage and bank-balance? The joy of driving a car which is older than
most of our bank-managers, and the prerogative of giving a new name to
the beast which we have saved from an early grave by our own
whit(worth).

Having said that, I haven't really named mine - the 109" used to be red,
hence it became called the red land rover, as opposed to the green land
rover, but seeing as I now have three, and they are all green, then the
red, gree, and silver (yes one 88" I bought was actually painted silver
- AAAArrgghh!) rovers seem confusing to anyone outside the family who
understand their heritage. At the moment we resort to "yours" "mine" and
"the other 88" ".

Enough of this waxing lyrical - there's another front wing to remove
this evening!

Cheers!

Adrian Redmond

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: robot1@juno.com
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:41:17 -0800
Subject: Anotrher N**el?

Great ceasar's ghost- do you want to shut down the entire Rovering
public? One bloody N**el was enough!!! I don't know if the list can stand
another!!!!

And listing all those ailments- what are you trying to do to me? Now I
have to jump around the backyard singing the Lumberjack song wearing a
loincloth with a "Lucas" distributor cap strapped to my head! And it's -2
degrees here!
(many Rover owners feel I do this to appease the Great God Lucas-
Actually I just like wearing loincloths)

Welcome to the list and good luck!!!

mark

1967 109 regular "Sheila"

You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.

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From: John Cranfield <john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:25:20 -0400
Subject: Electric LR don't make my spark jump

The electric vehicle was largely abandoned in the 1920s except for milk
floats and golf carts. Why?  The woefully inadequate range and the
complete failure in cold conditions.
Do I want those in sunny California to move their pollution to my back
yard? Hell no!
Lower current draw at low speeds? only if the vehicle is not under load,
get it stuck or tackle some steep hills and watch the batteries drain.
Do I think you should convert your Land Rover to battery electric?  If
it makes your bulb brighter go for it but do remember to take your gas
powered generator with you for when you are 51 miles from home.
John and Muddy

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From: asfco <asfco@banet.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:26:57 -0500
Subject: Re: alpine windows/headlining

Bob and Sue Bernard wrote:
> Hi All,
> I just cut the holes to add the alpine windows to a plain 88 top, getting
> ready to paint it.
> Now I'm wondering again if anyone has an 88 with the alpine windows and no
> sunshield. I know I've seen them on series. What I would like to know is
> how does the headliner deal with the windows?
> On a Safari roof the headliner is held on the edges by a metal strip that
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 16 lines)]
> More or less what did the factory do?
>RE: Headlining/ alpine windows
///// The headliner is more or less just a square piece with cutouts for
the 2 roof vents and is about 2or3 inches away from the windows the  2
metal strips are  held in place by long bolts that go up thru the
sunsheet...perhaps you could use velcro and a strong adhesive (PL
2000/liquid nails/subflooring adhesive) to hold things in place 
Rgds
Steve Bradke 68 series lla

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From: "Tom Rowe" <trowe@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:51:33 -0400
Subject: Re: New Tires

>A few weeks back John Tackley posted a recommendation for the 49 USD
>235/85R16 remoulds from Ray Carr Tires in Virginia. I bought a set
of the
>mud terrains and had them shipped to Connecticut.  Great service,
and the
snip

Keep in mind that in many states recaps on the front are illegal.
Some insurance companies like to use such a nit to place blame, even
if an acident isn't really your fault.

Tom Rowe
Atlanta, GA

Four wheel drive allows you to get stuck
in places even more inaccessible.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jeff Goldman <roverboy@gis.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:51:32 -0500
Subject: PCV on a Series truck (US)

  Has anyone toyed with generic aftermarket PCV valves to do the duty of
the original, very expensive part on late SIIAs and SIIIs for US import??
Concensus? I'd just as soon not deal with it, but if a couple bucks at the
local parts store can do the job of the original, I'm game... And, I'm sure
the atmosphere might enjoy it. Thanks.

Jeff Goldman
Boston, MA
http://www.gis.net/~roverboy

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From: Michael Carradine <cs@landrover.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 17:34:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: PCV on a Series truck (US)

At 07:51 PM 12/30/98 -0500, Jeff Goldman <roverboy@gis.net> wrote:
:  Has anyone toyed with generic aftermarket PCV valves to do the duty of
:the original, very expensive part on late SIIAs and SIIIs for US import??
:Concensus? I'd just as soon not deal with it, but if a couple bucks at the
:local parts store can do the job of the original, I'm game... And, I'm sure
:the atmosphere might enjoy it. Thanks.

 Your concern for the environment is laudable!  Any appropriate
 US made PCV valve will do, I'm certain.  However, there are no
 States in the US that require SMOG equipment on SII/IIA/III's
 that I know of, not even here in California, unless yours is a
 1974 model and younger.

 Happy New Year everyone!

-Michael

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From: "Jeff and Chris Jackson" <jcjcj88@email.msn.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 20:55:58 -0800
Subject: re: 2A MiscellaneousQuestions

>I read of regalvanizing bits and pieces now and again.  Where can
>this be done?  Is it typically expensive?  Are there differing
>"qualities" of hot zinc dip galvanization?

Yes. There is "mill grade", which would be your basic highway bridge. Great
for bridges and guardrails, but it often has pebble-sized chunks of slag
stuck in the zinc.  I've seen a few re-galv'd trim pieces done this way, and
they looked terrible.  Smaller shops, in general, are equipped to do a
higher quality galvanizing.  There's a place in CT which does small pieces;
I forget the name, but I can look it up for you if you're in this area.

>One candidate vehicle has worn out swivel balls.  Is this a major
>problem to rectify?  Is it expensive to do it yourself?  It looks as
>if the parts cost is a couple hundred dollars.

Is it the balls (are they pitted?) or the seals?  Usually, it's both.  If
the balls are pitted, you can buy new (as noted, several hundred bucks),
have yours reconditoned for about a hundred, or fill the pits with liquid
steel or some such goop and replace the seals.  Some have had good luck with
the latter method; it's described in detail in the archives.  Not a huge
job, but while you're in there shipfitter's disease will strike and you'll
be replacing bearings, races, seals...

>Which brings me to another beef.  Is there more to "Land Rover
>Genuine Parts" than a fancy sticker and higher price?

Sure is.  You're forgetting poor quality.    There's also the rube-like
feeling which you'll get knowing that you paid twice what you should have
and then received an inferior part. This will compel you to make posts to
this board defending the quality of the "Genuine" part, thus freeing you
from admitting that you were taken. The Genuine stuff does come in those
cool land rover boxes, though, which look very professional sitting on your
workbench.  Buy a few Genuine parts, toss the parts and save the boxes to
impress your friends.

>I have three parts supplier catalogues: RN, BP and AB.  How do these
>compare?  Who else should I consider?

RN has shameless prices, pretty good service and gives excellent, free
advice over the phone.  I buy some stuff from them as a sort of guilt tax.
AB has pretty good service, lower prices and a sometimes-useful "kit"
approach to selling parts, but you're better off getting advice from a
psychic hotline, IMHO.  BP is on the west coast.  There's absolutely no
reason that I should not have ordered from them since they have a good
reputation, and Terri Ann Wakeman's beautiful truck is a rolling BP
signpost.  But I haven't.  They're on the west coast, you know.

>Hey, while I am at it, I'll keep on typing...
>I saw a neato 88 roof rack last season at ECR in Warren ME.  Square
>tubing, welded corners, galvanized ...and it looks very similar to
>the BP custom roof rack advertized on their inside back catalogue
>cover.  I am still trying to verify this rack ...but in the meantime,
>can anyone comment on this rack ...do you have it, know it, love it?

I'm sure that if ECR made it, the rack is of superb quality and bears a
price that would make RN blush.

Jeff

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: Jeff Goldman <roverboy@gis.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:46:16 -0500
Subject: Re: PCV on a Series truck (US)

At 05:34 PM 12/30/98 -0800, you wrote:

> States in the US that require SMOG equipment on SII/IIA/III's
> that I know of, not even here in California, unless yours is a
> 1974 model and younger.

  Is this true? Because, it was my main concern. I knew CARB exempted 25
and older from tailpipe emission tests, but I was under the impression that
all the emissions equipment original to the vehicle, regardless of age, had
to be present (even if they don't test whether the equipment is doing
anything). Please let me be wrong. 
  On the other hand, if it is as simple as picking up a generic PCV valve
then it solves headaches of converting to breather type oil filler and
crankcase breather...

Jeff Goldman
Boston, MA
http://www.gis.net/~roverboy

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:15:29 EST
Subject: Re: PCV on a Series truck (US)

In a message dated 98-12-31 00:36:19 EST, you write:

<<   Is this true? Because, it was my main concern. I knew CARB exempted 25
 and older from tailpipe emission tests, but I was under the impression that
 all the emissions equipment original to the vehicle, regardless of age, had
 to be present (even if they don't test whether the equipment is doing
 anything). Please let me be wrong. 
   On the other hand, if it is as simple as picking up a generic PCV valve
 then it solves headaches of converting to breather type oil filler and
 crankcase breather...
 
 >>

Kind of a grey area: Even though the vehicle doesn't have to be tested,
anything that was on the engine during that year of importation MUST be there.
However, the only way they'll ever know that anything is missing, is IF
somebody that knows what they're doing happens to take a look.

I've taken things off of my MGB's in the past, but always put them back for
smog tests (they never passed anyway - but at least I tried!). But now, once
in a while here in Kalifornia, the State (ze Fatherland) will set up an
emission reading device on freeway on ramps, and snap a pic of the car that
spits out the most - if it isn't exempt from testing, the owner gets hate
mail. Then, they have to get the car tested for each year - for 3 years! (one
of those little rules that got passed when nobody was looking)

As for aftermarket PCV valves - hey, if it works, go for it! There's no law
that sez that a replacement has got to be OEM.

Charles

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: CIrvin1258@aol.com
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:37:33 EST
Subject: Re: "attempted DUI's"

In a message dated 98-12-30 14:57:14 EST, you write:

<< In Pa. the law was that as long as the keys were NOT in the ignition you
 were o.k >>

Reminds me of an incident involving a friend of mine: 'Bout 14 years ago, he
had a pretty ugly habit of patying all night EVERY night! I used to hang out
at a mutual friends' auto shop late at night (I worked until the wee hours,
and there was always somebody working late at the shop), and one night he
stopped by, talked to us for about 5 minutes, then announced he was leaving.

About an hour later, I looked at my friend (we were watching "Night of The
Living Dead", in the shops' office TV), and mentioned that I never did hear
Wesley's Camaro take off. So, I wander outside to find him snoring away,
sitting behind the wheel - keys in the ignition, drivers' window rolled down,
and BEER CAN IN HAND!

Since I didn't want to disturb his sleep, I removed his keys from the
ignition, and took them inside. About 2 hours later, we heard someone banging
on something outside, so I took another look, and found him trying to break
the ignition lock with his Mag-Lite! He had sobered up a bit, but couldn't
find his keys, so I handed them to him, and off he went. This was one of those
guys who would drive under the influence of something nearly everyday of his
life, for 10 years, and NEVER got caught, or had any accidents - any time the
cops nabbed him, he was usually asleep behind the wheel, parked on a side
street - keys in the ignition!

Charles

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From: Allan Smith <smitha@candw.lc>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:44:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Undercoating Firewall

You would be better off spraying Waxoyl or Dinitrol  up the door posts and
leaving it at that. Those thick undercoatings are good at hiding things -
like rust in progress. 

At 08:15 30/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I was prepping my firewall, floorboards, etc. to be undercoated 

Allan Smith
Caribbean Natural Resources Institute (CANARI)
Vieux Fort, St. Lucia, West Indies. Tel. + 758 454 6060  Fax. + 758 454 5188

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From: "John Baker" <daddyo@loxinfo.co.th>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:39:27 +0700
Subject: Transfer Case

Many thanks to both TerriAnn and K. John Wood for their suggestions
regarding my "transfer case" noise. Turns out it was loose prop shaft
bolts, front and rear. Tightened them all up, noise and vibration
disappeared. Textbook case of the need to consider the simple things first.
Only bright side is that this effectively made me keep the revs down during
the break-in period.

On the same note, I would like to propose an Idiot of the Month contest. To
avoid acrimony, only self-nominations would be accepted. List members would
submit the stupidest things they have done Rover-wise during the month,
then there would be a vote. Perhaps there could be three categories--Idiot,
Real Idiot, and Certified Idiot. I would like to submit myself for
considering tearing down the transfer case before checking for something as
simple and obvious as loose prop bolts!! If I don't win this month, I am
sure I will have another before too long.

John Baker
Bangkok

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