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From: Mick Forster <cmtmgf@mail.soc.staffs.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:58:55 +0000
Subject: Electric Landy

I'm prepared for some flak, so here goes ....
I have a 1962 IIa 88" which I intend to convert to electric drive in the
new year so Wilde EVolutions experience with their IIa is very
encouraging. See:
http://www.EVParts.com/FaceOff.htm
I wait with baited breath for the outcome.
My 88" will be used to travel daily the 4 miles to work and back I will
still have the 109" (2.256 petrol) for real journeys.

Mick Forster
1972 109" Safari 2.25 petrol
http://gawain.soc.staffs.ac.uk/~mick/LWBrst/LWBrst.html
http://members.aol.com/IssyJames/LRlinks/LRlinks.htm

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From: dbobeck@ushmm.org
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 98 08:21:50 -0500
Subject: Re: llA Bulkheads 

>And if you are thinking I should weld my own - I have signed up two years 
>in a row to the local technical college's basic welding course.  Both years 
>the course was canceled due to 'lack of demand'.

Buy a mig machine. buy a few books. practic practice practice...(not on your 
rover at first). its easy...$500 and you can make all the bulkheads you ever 
dreamed of...

cheers
dave

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From: "Frank Elson" <frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:27:48 -0000
Subject: Re: New list member

Mathias,
welcome to the list, you fool you....... :-)>

and a Merry Christmas

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+            
     I !__|  [_]|_\___   
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV 
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

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From: "Frank Elson" <frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:24:47 -0000
Subject: Re: re:llA Bulkheads

>>I am told that Dingocroft has a "stash" of very clean Series II bulkheads
somewhere on Continental Europe and they want ~400 pounds not including VAT
or shipping.  www.dingocroft.co.uk/ <<<

Dingocroft have a good name here in the UK also. I've bought stuff from them
for many years and am entirely satisfied. Their prices are competitive in
this country where we have a lot of choice (sorry guys)

BTW it is normal now in the UK to replace Ser3 bulkheads with a Ninety one.
Very similar and not a lot to mess with... I don't know, is this possible
with the 2a ? Obviously not an issue if you are after originality but, of
course there are a lot more Ninety ones available....

Merry Christmas all - where the hell did all that Jameson's go to. It was a
full bottle when I sat down to read the mails.....

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

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From: "Frank Elson" <frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:31:04 -0000
Subject: Re: Electric Landy

Keep us in touch with your progress Mick, get lots of pix as well, might
make a decent article for you-know-who ???

Merry Christmas
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

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From: "John C. Hinkle" <defender110@email.msn.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 08:58:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Electric Landy

Mike-
Have you done much research into cost and weight issues? I am following the
progress of the Wilde EV landy with interest. They hope to have it out in
Moab for the easter  jeep safari, where I hope to get a good close look. I'm
interested in your thoughts and research.

Chris Hinkle
defender110@email.msn.com
http://extremerovers.com
'93 NAS Defender 110 #131
'94 NAS Defender 90 #132
'97 NAS Defender 90 #867
101 Forward Control "Baby"
Lightweight Hybrid Rockcrawler (under construction)

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From: "John Baker" <daddyo@loxinfo.co.th>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 22:14:09 +0700
Subject: Shake Down Cruise

Saw a report of another Land Rover back on the road, thought I would relay
my story. After almost two years, my 75 Series III 109 Station Wagon is
back on the road here in Thailand. During that time I basically replaced
almost anything replaceable and had it repainted. It was a long slow
process, lots of mistakes made that had to be corrected. Anyway, gassed up
and took off with two friends and headed from Bangkok to Koh Chang, near
the Cambodian border. This is a rather large island, about 300 or so kilos
away. Kept the speed at no higher than 80 km/h, even at that slow rate I
passed quite a few trucks and a few cars. A hot and noisy ride, but quite a
smooth ride, and the engine hummed right along. The island had some rough
roads and even a few streams that needed to be forded, so I quite enjoyed
being able to see what the Rover could do. On the island I spotted about 5
or 6 LRs in various states. My high beams gave out on day two and the lower
beams on day three. The clutch ran dry and I filled it up again and rebled.
So far the level is right up there, so not quite sure what that was all
about. On the way back I didn't believe my gauge as the filling guy said he
had filled the tank up but it never went above 3/4. So, ran out of gas on
an expressway. Fortunately picked a great place, walked about 5 minutes and
found a women who hopped on her motorcycle to fill up my gas can, and I
bought 3 Cokes for us. Got back to Bangkok about an hour before sunset,
dropped my friends off, took the wrong exit and waited in heavy traffic for
almost an hour (if you have been here, you know what I am talking about).
Thus, back home after dark. A/C goes in tomorrow, will be more comfortable,
but harder on the pocket book. Oil level on the engine is still at the H
mark, so am quite happy about that.

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From: Dale Smith <smithd@bunt.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:37:33 +0100
Subject: Re; new list member

Hello all,
I just got my first Land Rover, an Ex-British-Army SIII 109. It's just
what I dreamt of since I was a kid, so I finally made it my own
Christmas present !
Anyone else from Germany on this list ?
Mathias Babinsky
Freiburg, Germany

Which one? My auto atlas shows four. I'm in Kaiserslautern.
Smitty

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From: "K. John Wood" <jwrover@colo-net.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:05:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Cold Starting

Mitch,

Have been out of town until yesterday, and came home to this balmmy Christmas
weather here in CO.

Seing your post about the coleman makes me wonder if one also gets a great
nonstick finish applied to the stove due to "drippings"!!! I think in the
culinary field they call that seasoning!

John Wood

The Stockdales wrote:

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From: bobnsueb@maxinet.com (Bob and Sue Bernard)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 08:02:47 -0800
Subject: squeeking wheel

>Subject: Squeaky wheel . . .

>Howdy everybody,
>Steering wheel squeaking.  Have squirted both white lithium grease and some
>other lubricant up into the back of the wheel, to no avail.

>Ideas?--I'd hate to have to take the wheel off--probably break my nose
when it
>comes loose.
>Bill Rice

Bill,
Check the directional switch,depending on what year/type you have, the
rubber wheel bearing does do some squeeking when dry.

Bob B

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From: "Kevin and Crew" <willeys@cyberus.ca>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:44:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Basil gets a roll bar... cheap.
	charset="iso-8859-1"

the roll bar on my lightweight is bolted to the box top just behind the =
seats.
the bar is an original rover bit. i think i will be going to replace it =
with a custom cage, which will be bolted to the frame.
happy hoho
Kevin Willey
1996 disko (edith),
1973 lightweight,
1987 Merlin, 1998 True North soft tail(full boing)
Hummers hum but Land Rovers know the words !

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From: "The Stockdales" <mstockdale@mho.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:07:26 -0800
Subject: Bulk-heads, Engines and rants

Lets look at a couple of things here:

First I know of a guy who bought a 2.25L rebuilt by one of the UK's leading
suppliers of LR engines and had it shipped to Denver, CO USA for about
$2,200.00.  Not to shabby in my opinion, as a rebuild with all parts coming
from the normal US LR parts suppliers would cost nearly that much.

Secondly in 1991 I had my bulk-head rebuilt by a local welding shop for
$175.00 and the fella had to fabricate all the parts including foot-wells
and door pillars.  It isn't what you would call show quality, but its
watertight, straight and looks good.  Another friend of mine just bought a
used cherry bulkhead + breakfast + windshield frame for $300.00.  These
parts came from a western US rover and are in great condition although the
paint is faded.

Each time we begin our rebuild projects we must really weigh the costs Make
or Buy.  And with the number of series rigs in the world shipping from some
remote location will also need to be evaluated.  If shipping a used cherry
bulkhead form for instance Saudi to the US would be better than having a
competent welder repair mine I would do that, but it isn't so.  Conversely a
rebuild of a 2.25, it may be cheaper for you to import from the UK.  Come on
people we are driving 30 year old vehicles and it aint necessarily easy to
do that.  What did you buy your rover for in the first place, to be show
quality in perfection, or to drive a classic with tremendous
capability/versatility and within your capability to operate and repair.
Most series rovers I have seen are somewhat customized to the individual
owners tastes and needs.  Even the ones who take 5+ years for a very
detailed oriented rebuild are not 100% what was shipped from Solihull.  It
is also great to see many out there who are looking at the possibilities to
get more from what they have.  Great advances have been made by people who
are taking a new look at our 30 year old engineering and coming up with new
ideas.  Stronger axles, better camshafts, intake manifolds etc.  Those are
options we all have and all it takes is ingenuity and of course $$.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that there were over 1,000,000 series
rigs built and the parts to keep the say 80% still active are available.
You just have to look around and make a decision as to whether it is better
for YOU to repair or replace.  And as far as aftermarket parts are concerned
many of the same parts supplied on the series LR are identical to parts on
other vehicles.  Companies like Lucas, Bosch, AC or etc.  cannot produce
parts specific to one vehicle and keep efficient.  That VW brake lite switch
will work just fine on your LR, and the local guy at the muffler shop can
build a exhaust system that work just as well as the one that costs twice as
much from the mail-order company.

If you make the decision to rebuild, maintain, and drive a Series Land
Rover, you better be prepared to make allot of other decisions on just what
you want your Rover to be.  And look around to find what fits you and what
your ambitions for the Rover are.

Hurricane Mitch and the Red Dinosaur.

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From: GElam30092@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:16:42 EST
Subject: Re: llA Bulkheads

In a message dated 12/24/98 6:56:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk writes:

<< BTW it is normal now in the UK to replace Ser3 bulkheads with a Ninety one.
 Very similar and not a lot to mess with... I don't know, is this possible
 with the 2a ?  >>

There was a mention of this in LRO where a guy replaced a SIIA bulkhead with a
D-90 if I remember correctly.  The only reason I remember this is that he also
used an ACR high-compression head and SU carb setup.  Seems like there was
some difficulties with the pedals but he got it sorted out.

Happy holidays!
Gerry

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From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:16:25 -0500
Subject: Distributor

Just like to add my 2 cents worth to this debate. I find it difficult to
believe that the distributor could be fitted with the drive dog 180 degrees
out and subsequently slip. The offset would prevent the dist from seating,
the dog would sit on the top of the quill.  The depth of engagement of the
drive dog into the drive quill is such that if the drive was not correctly
engaged, the distributor would sit high in it's position, making it very
difficult for the distributor top clamp to remain on the distributor because
the location dia is only about 1/8 " long so it would be obvious that
something was wrong when the top clamp will not fit or it would be necessary
to put a spacer under the clamp so that it could be secured to the block.

 Meery Christmas and a Happy New Year  to all listers
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

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From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:16:27 -0500

	Peter writes I recently soldered a leak in my radiator.  Took it down 
to a
shop to 
have  it pressure checked to be sure I'd gotten the bugger.  Pressurized to
6 lbs
and had the top part of the radiator begin to bulge out and didn't return
to original shape afterwards.  Doesn't leak but looks like it is bloated.
Don't tell me its getting old, its original off a '65.

 I would be willing to bet that the rad shop have never heard of the
calibration process. When was the last time they checked ?  if ever ? , the
accuracy of the pressure gauge  The LR rad should stand slightly more than 6
psi without permanent deformation. Mine ( 58)  runs with a 7 psi pressure
cap ( OK I have not tested the cap ) but when I repaired the cracks in the
header tank stiffening ribs I pressure tested to 12 psi using a calibrated
gauge, No permanent deformation resulted. It is also pretty difficult to
measure 6 psi if they use a 100 psi range gauge. Sorry for the synicism, but
I have seen a lot of "professional " shops that are really very crude. 
 I have been in the radiator manufacturing business for 2 decades, primarliy
in the aluminium market but still exposed to the brass business. The
radiator would have been pressure tested at at least 10 psi at the
manufacturers and at design validation  would have been expected to pass at
least a 30,000 pressure cycle test without failure
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

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From: James Wolf <J.Wolf@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:21:35
Subject: RE: steering Wheel

>Howdy everybody,
>Steering wheel squeaking.  Have squirted both white lithium grease and some
>other lubricant up into the back of the wheel, to no avail.
>Ideas?--I'd hate to have to take the wheel off--probably break my nose

when it
>comes loose.
>Bill Rice
>other lubricant up into the back of the wheel, to no avail.

Try removing the horn stuff and putting the lubrication down where the
bearings are, you can see them with this stuff out of the way.

Jim Wolf

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From: William Leacock <wleacock@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:36:10 -0500
Subject: Camshaft

Sandy writes re cam shaft mods.
 I am a little surprised to see "start up costs would be substatial " for a
new camshaft "casting."
 Fistly cast crankshafts are not very good- witness the V8 Rover, whilst the
steel camshaft of the Land Rover lasts forever if lubricated. ( OK roller
followers make a big difference also- but the thickness of the hard skin is
the big difference. ) 
 Changing the cam profiles of a Land Rover cam is relatively easy. there is
plenty of material to regrind the profile, the other alternative is to build
up the cam profile with stelllite or similar and re grind the profile, a lot
cheaper than paying for new castings.
Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

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From: NADdMD@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:46:11 EST
Subject: Re: Distributor

In a message dated 12/24/98 2:14:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wleacock@pipeline.com writes:

> Just like to add my 2 cents worth to this debate. I find it difficult to
>  believe that the distributor could be fitted with the drive dog 180 degrees
>  out and subsequently slip. 

Hi Bill,

I'd be interested in your opinion on how the engine switched timing 180
degrees, while I was standing there listening to it run then not run,  (Switch
of wires around) and run again only better than ever.

Nate

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From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:34:31
Subject: Re: llA Bulkheads eeplaced by series III or later

	Series III or 90 bulkheads are out.  The problem is that I don't to go
backward and get a later bulkhead.  I drive a IIa for its lack of plastic
and simplicity.  The plastic, etc. of the later bulkheads is the problem
that I want to stay away from.  Sure there are a lot available but who
wants them.
	Rebuilding a bulkhead is an option if it is rusting in the right places.
Mine is beginning to pinhole at the top above the top hinge and on the
face.  That allows the steel behind to rust and you can't get at it to
remove or stabilize the rust and protect with paint.  Am going to try and
weld the holes but am afraid the rustermite has thinned out the surrounding
metal so that it will require replacement.  That will require fabricating
some relatively intricate pieces, especially if I have to replace the vent
areas.  I don't have the expertise to do the job and doubt that I would
find it here.  Buying a used one is a pig in a poke.  Who is to say the
new/used replacement won't do the same thing.  I'm not looking for a
cosmetic rebuild that will last for the short time I will own the vehicle
before I sell it.  I've owned the 88 since 1984 and don't anticipate
selling it, ever.  Its not a cosmetically restored, driven only on Sundays
show piece but my farm truck with a lot of dings especially after I exposed
the oily side a while back.  I just want any repair to last long and look
good.  Feel that I owe it to the truck for its faithful service.  I think
there will be a demand for new IIa bulkheads somewhere down the line and
was just checking to see if anyone out there was making them or there was a
stock of NOS after Andre sells out.

Aloha Peter 

At 12:16 PM 12/24/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/24/98 6:56:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
>frankelson@felson.freeserve.co.uk writes:
><< BTW it is normal now in the UK to replace Ser3 bulkheads with a Ninety

one.
> Very similar and not a lot to mess with... I don't know, is this possible
> with the 2a ?  >>
>There was a mention of this in LRO where a guy replaced a SIIA bulkhead

with a
>D-90 if I remember correctly.  The only reason I remember this is that he
also
>used an ACR high-compression head and SU carb setup.  Seems like there was
>some difficulties with the pedals but he got it sorted out.
>Happy holidays!
>Gerry

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From: "\"Mr. Mike\" Passaretti" <passaretti@sol.med.ge.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:55:48 -0600
Subject: Re: llA Bulkheads eeplaced by series III or later

>>>>> "Faye" == Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org> writes:

    Faye> 	Series III or 90 bulkheads are out.  The
    Faye> problem is that I don't to go backward and get a
    Faye> later bulkhead.  I drive a IIa for its lack of
    Faye> plastic and simplicity.  The plastic, etc. of the
    Faye> later bulkheads is the problem that I want to stay
    Faye> away from. 

There's plastic on an SIII bulkead?  Where?
						-MM

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From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:01:07
Subject: Re: Bulk-heads, Engines and rants

	Accidentally erased comments on rebuild of bulkhead for $200.
Unfortunately you need to spend nearly twice that to get the door posts and
foot wells plus the cost of welding.  Couldn't get a welder to start the
repair for under $200 let alone fabricate anything.  Makes the $1,000
rebuild by ECR look more reasonable.  Another problem for those of us in
inaccessible places is that shipping can equal the cost of the repair.  I
need new wheels.  Shipping is over $40 per wheel while I could get them
shipped anywhere on the mainland for less than $20.  If i pay the cost of
the freight, I want a quality piece that will last.  Haven't found a
supposedly good shape bulkhead for less than $500 and that was sold before
I got to it.  There are deals out there but they are not easy to find here
in the middle of the Pacific.
	As far as survival rates for series rovers here on the Big Island, its
probably l0% or less and its almost totally related to corrosion of the
frame and bulkhead.  New frames are available for a price, but bulkheads
are another story.  In areas with significant rust problems, bulkheads are
going to be a serious threat to survival of the IIa.  Listening to those
restoring series I's, it sounds like it takes 3 to make 1.  If that becomes
the ratio for IIa's we could get below the threshold where high volume
manufacturing of parts for them is not economically feasible.  Parts prices
will go through the roof.  Not a big deal for the collector but a disaster
for us who use the trucks as intended.  What makes it doubly bad is there
is nothing out there to replace it.  Modern vehicles are 'use and throw
away when it breaks or the warranty runs out' consumables.  If you have
tried to get one fixed you know that repairs are too costly to make and
usually can't be done by the rank amateur.  I've been around Series Rovers
long enough to see a tremendous inflation of parts prices in the last
decade and the serious dwindling of usable used pieces.  
	I just hope that there is always enough of the series trucking to keep 
the
parts reasonably cheap and that all the parts that can't be sourced
elsewhere are manufactured.

Aloha Peter

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From: "Michael Wells" <mwells11@rjt.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:28:07 -0000
Subject: Gearbox fault.

I have a 2.25 engine with a 11a gearbox in my 86". Everything seems OK
apart from the box sticking in reverse occasionally. I have a real job
getting it free and when I do I might not happen for weeks. Has anyone any
ideas.
Mick  86"

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From: "d.h.lowe" <dhlowe@idirect.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:41:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Gearbox fault.

Check that the selector fork clamp bolt is tight ( or even might be stripped,
it is easy to strip the bolt thread if you do not align the shaft when you
tighten it. The shaft is very hard). Unfortunately this means lifting the top
off the box, which can be done about removing the seat box.

> I have a 2.25 engine with a 11a gearbox in my 86". Everything seems OK
> apart from the box sticking in reverse occasionally. I have a real job
> getting it free and when I do I might not happen for weeks. Has anyone any
> ideas.

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From: Paul Lonsdale <Lonsdale@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:15:54 -0500
Subject: Re: New list member

 Welcome to the list.
 
 Merry Christmas & A Happy New Land-Rover to you!
 
 Paul

 Thu, 24 Dec 1998 22:24

 Ex- H.M. Coastguard Series III 88 Inch
 "Dougal Mc Landie"  B 895 OJT  (1984)
 

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From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:58:15
Subject: Re: Tyre stops and 130 wheels????

	When I let my spring bushes get too deteriorated they allowed the
spring/axle to slip sideways, the wheel hooked the inner fender tearing and
bending it.  I had to remove the fender and beat the fender back into shape
when I replaced the bushes.  While I had the fender off, decided to play
with the stops to try and get better turning radius.  Even though the stops
looked like I had set them so they would keep the wheel from hitting the
fender, they didn't.  Off with the fender and beat it flat again .  Turned
out the wheel stops to restrict the turning radius of the wheel about a
1/4" and all has been fine since though the turning is the same as before
the adjustment.  I would be sure the stops are adjusted properly as you can
hook the fender as well as rub the springs if the wheel is allowed to turn
too far even with good bushings.  I'm running 235/85/16's that appear
slightly larger than the BFG mud terrains in the same size.
	Sure would be tempting to leave the stops out on the 109 in hopes of
shortening the turning radius.  Even though I live on the Big Island, its
not big enough to do a U-turn in the 109.  Somewhere I kind of remember
hearing that offset wheels will shorten the turning radius by allowing the
wheel to turn further before hitting the spring/frame/fender.  Could you
accomplish this with the 130 rims on a 109 without having to carve out the
wheel arches and add flares??  I have to either resurrect my 15" wheels or
buy a new set of 16" and the 130 rims sure look nifty but fear they would
cause problems.  

Aloha Peter

> I am a believer in throwing away the steering stops on a Land Rover so that
>maximum lock can be obtained, OK under max lock the tyre can rub on the
>spring, so what, under these conditions it is only likely to occur at low
>speed under tight manouvering when you need the lock.
>Bill Leacock  ( Limey in exile ) NY USA.
> 88 and 109 LR's and 89 RR 

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From: John Putnam <jdputnam@oriongps.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:56:28 -0800
Subject: Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and happy Rovering in the New Year.

John Putnam
Forest Grove, OR
'70 SIIa SWB 'Rhino'
'90 RR 'Dog Sled'

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From: Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 20:06:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Gearbox fault.

Hmmm...sticks in reverse?

First question - does it make any nasty noises getting it out when it does?

Barring other input, I'd suspect a shifted bushing in the reverse gear - the
center of the gear has wandered loose and the gear has cocked on it. The royal
fight you're having is likely trying to stuff the bushing back in the gear...
with the gear slightly twisted.

Check the obvious first - pull the top cover off the transmission when it gets
stuck and see if you can move the gear back and forth easily once you take out
the reverse shift shaft and its fork. If you can, then look to a binding shaft
or the like instead.

Before you do anything else, though - check for something as simple as a burred
shift lever sticking or the like. Go for the obvious first - but a trip under
the floor seems to be advised here.

                    Alan

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From: "C. Marin Faure" <faurecm@halcyon.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:09:59 -0700
Subject: Re: groovy seals - please clarify!

From: Adrian Redmond <channel6@post2.tele.dk>
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:37:01 +0100
Subject: Re: groovy seals - please clarify!

>All this talk of grooved pulley wheels has got me confused. A lot of the
people who have posted on this topic, warn of the dangers of a grooved
shaft, which lets the oil spill out of the front cover, even though the
seal is good.

>What is this shaft - isn't this the end of the cranckshaft - and
therefore too expensive/difficult to replace for a "simple" leak? - and
how does the seal groove the pulley wheel? There is a retaining plate
between the two. Come to think of it, how does a plastic seal groove
anything in that region.

It's been years since I've had my 2.25 petrol engine apart, but I recall
that the front of the crankshaft has a "key" which locks to the mating
"key" on the crankshaft pulley.  The pulley is fastened to the crankshaft
with a big bolt.   The crankshaft extends out the front of the engine
block, but not into "open air."  Instead, the connection between the
crankshaft and the shaft on the crankshaft pulley occurs inside the timing
chain cover.  As engine oil is supposed to be inside the cover to lubricate
the chain, the only place you need a tight oil seal is in the timing chain
cover, to keep oil from seeping out around the rotating pulley shaft.  So
the front engine oil seal is actually in the timing chain cover and it
presses against the shaft of the crankshaft pulley, not the crankshaft
itself.  This is why it's relatively easy to replace.

I say relatively because while replacing the front seal properly is easier
than the major surgery needed to replace the rear oil seal, you still have
to remove the timing chain cover.  If you want to do THAT with a minimum of
swearing, it means removing the fan, radiator, water pump, and oil pan.
The oil pan has to be removed because the forward bolts that hold it onto
the engine actually go into the timing chain cover, not the block.  Trying
to remove and re-install the timing chain cover without removing the oil
pan generally results in damaging the oil pan gasket, which means you have
another leak to deal with.

The oil seal lip is rubber, not plastic, and held to form by a spring
around its circumference which puts a degree of pressure against the pulley
shaft.   While you would think that rubber could not wear a groove in
metal, in fact it can over time.  Don't forget, the pulley is rotating at
speeds of 500 to 4,000-plus rpm whenever the engine is running.  The
pressure of the seal is concentrated on a very narrow ring around the
pulley shaft.  At first, it will polish the shaft, but given time it will
begin to groove it.  I guess it's like polishing rocks: who would think
ground-up walnut shells would wear down the surface of a rock to the point
where it was shiny, but they do.  I suppose it's also possible that the
contaminates that end up in the engine oil help the oil act as a "cutting
agent," which helps the seal wear away the metal on the pulley shaft, but
this may be a totally bogus theory on my part.

Anyway, the fact is that the front oil seal does wear a groove in the
crankshaft pulley shaft, and once this happens, replacing the front oil
seal doesn't accomplish much because it will no longer ride tight against
the shaft; it will ride in the groove and oil will seep out, sometimes at a
pretty good clip.  There are three cures.  The easiest (I guess) is to pull
the crankshaft pulley, which you can do without removing any other parts,
and install a Speedi Sleeve.  I have never seen one, but my understanding
is that it's a very thin, flanged metal sleeve that is a very tight fit
around the pulley shaft.  Speedi Sleeves come in a variety of sizes, and
apparently there's one that fits the 2.25 pulley shaft perfectly.  You
position the sleeve over the groove and reinstall the pulley.  Now the oil
seal rides on the sleeve, not the grooved shaft, and the oil leakage goes
away.  Someone who's actually used a Speedi Sleeve will probably give you a
much better description of its installation than I just did.

The second cure is to replace the old crankshaft pulley with a new one.
However, this entails the process I described earlier.

The third cure would be to install an oversize seal, by which I mean a seal
that has more rubber on the inside and thus a slightly smaller inside
diameter which would make it ride tight in the groove.  As I have no idea
if such a seal even exists, this method is probably not even possible.

There is a fourth cure which involves doing nothing at all.  As long as the
oil leak up front isn't too bad, the oil seeping out and blowing back under
the vehicle will help prevent rust on the frame and outriggers and keep the
rear springs lubed.  While I bought a replacement pulley for my Series III
year ago, my lack of time has prompted me to adapt Cure Number 4.

As to how long it takes for the pulley shaft to become grooved by the seal,
all I can tell you is that I bought my Series III new in 1973, and had no
front oil leak until perhaps 1981 or so.  When we took the engine apart
that year to deal with a couple of burned exhaust valves, I noticed the
front pulley shaft was grooved at that time.  The vehicle had been a daily
driver up to that point, and had over 125,000 miles.  So it's not something
that happens overnight.  I replaced the front oil seal as we had the timing
chain cover off anyway, and while it reduced the oil leakage slightly, it
actually had little effect because of the groove.

________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
   Seattle, WA

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From: Faye and Peter Ogilvie <ogilvi@hgea.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 15:46:37
Subject: Re: Electric Rover, for gods sake why mess with it???

	This is something that just doesn't make sense.  You've got a classic
vehicle that is appreciating in value as it becomes more scarce.  You want
to take this treasure and mess it up.  I know your conscience will feel
better by keeping your local environment free of those nasty petrol
pollutants.  In reality though, you've just exported the pollution to the
location of the electrical plant where the recharge juice will come from.
Meanwhile the batteries will have to be replaced periodically so all that
lead ends up in a landfill somewhere if it is not recycled and isn't 100%
recovered if recycled.  Also with the axles and aerodynamics of the rover,
it makes a very poor choice as an economy vehicle.  
	With your tremendous commute (4 miles), might I suggest a bicycle.  The
environment will not suffer nearly the damage that the electrical
conversion and charging will cause and your body will thank you with
increased longevity and quality of life.  Once in shape, you will probably
get there faster, also
	With the extremely poor efficiency of todays battery technology, do
electric vehicles really make any sense except in areas where exhaust gases
are a major problem like inside buildings or mines???  
	If you still insist on an electric vehicle, why don't you convert an
American or Japanese 2wd pickup.  They are available cheap and are as
common and exciting as dirt.  They are more aerodynamic than the rover,
have less rotating mass to waste the precious little energy the batteries
store, and a great big bed to hold the lead mine that you need to carry
with you.
	Last but not least, if you are truly freaked by the petrol that the 
rover
burns, convert it to run on propane for clean or insert a diesel for
efficiency.
	Have not seen flame one on your idea.  Find it hard to believe that no 
one
else has questioned the efficacy or validity of your idea.  People must be
drinking too much holiday cheer.  Incidentally, checked out the Wilde
Evolution web site.  Wonder how much fuel is used in hauling the trailer
which is necessary to keep the rig going farther than you can spit and the
fuel necessary to charge up those extremely heavy batteries???  Is it
really a non polluter in the real world???  

Aloha Peter

At 11:58 AM 12/24/98 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm prepared for some flak, so here goes ....
>I have a 1962 IIa 88" which I intend to convert to electric drive in the
>new year so Wilde EVolutions experience with their IIa is very
>encouraging. See:
>>I wait with baited breath for the outcome.
>My 88" will be used to travel daily the 4 miles to work and back I will
>still have the 109" (2.256 petrol) for real journeys.
	 [ truncated by list-digester (was 11 lines)]
>Mick Forster
>1972 109" Safari 2.25 petrol

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From: GElam30092@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 20:58:33 EST
Subject: Re: Electric Rover, for gods sake why mess with it???

Jeez Peter... get off the fence and tell us how you really feel!  

I was thinking along the same lines myself but more towards your point of
"surely (Shirley?), there are better suited donor vehicles available."  But,
it's your vehicle and your choice..... and if you want me to help you dispose
of your spares, let me know!  ;-)

Here's hoping everyone has a very Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.

Gerry Elam
PHX AZ

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From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:05:31 -0800
Subject: Re: well, it finally died (the alternator)

Alan_Richer@motorcity2.lotus.com wrote:
8<
> On a related note, has anyone else noticed how cheap rebuilt GM alternators 
> are getting?

They're so cheap around here that I bought a second one and had it milled to
match my hacked-up first one.

C

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From: Robert McCullough <dieselbob@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 21:32:05 -0500
Subject: fuel lines

i would have to agree with TAW about he fuel lines, my experience has been
the plastic lines last a long time and are less prone to leak than a rubber
hose and clamp. they are very expensive to replace so if anyones doing a
restoration, save some bucks (legend brewery has a seasonal chocolate
porter thats awesome) and don't just cut through the old ones. years ago i
did manage to wear through a plastic fuel line which caused the diesel to
suck air and die. 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Christopher H. Dow" <dow@thelen.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 18:31:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Guinness for what its worth

The Stockdales wrote:
8<
> Where is your best place to enjoy the Nectar of the Gods?

Why, I like to drink it at the Prince o' Wales pub in San Mateo--home of the
World-Famous Habanero Hamburger.  Be careful, though, as the burger burns you
twice and the second time you don't have much control over it.

C

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From: "David and Cynthia Walker" <wahooadv@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:20:32 -0800
Subject: Electric LR

Well, I have already seen a posting from an unenlightened person as to the
Electric Vehicle conversion and possibilities. This is not intended to 'fan
flames' - but rather educate and inform........someone asked an honest
question - they deserve an honest answer

So, would I do it, a conversion to a Land Rover - NO................

BUT, I can say that I have driven the one that EV is touting - and it was
impressive.

While at the Portland ABFM, the gentleman who owns EV was just a couple of
LR's away. I asked him if it was ok to take it for a spin after the show -
and he indulged me (he also made the vehicle available the next day for me
to go on the off road course with it.)
I took off - well, you let out the clutch in the gear you wish to accelerate
in and the vehicle 'sits there' until you touch the gas ----- in second
gear............I let out the clutch and sat there in second - when I
pressed the 'gas' pedal 2/3 the way to the floor, the LR spun its tires and
leapt away. You can then change up through the gears, just like normal -
again, no engine sound (the no sound part was the weirdest thing). It
accelerated better than any stock engine LR, the owner intends to take it on
the track next year (they now have a class for LR slalom racing)

The acceleration was truly amazing - with no sound. It is able to do all the
things that an ordinary Land Rover can do (except drive long distance) and
can do a few things better than any LR

SO, why would someone want to do this to a Land Rover?
Well, you get:

a vehicle that now has 100% torque at 0 RPM ----- great for those 'stops and
starts' on steep hills and the like. Rock crawlers dream (you 'could' use
4th high and drive at 5 RPM transmission speed - or 3rd low at 10 RPM!!!!!)
You can go 80 miles off road
You have a lower center of gravity
You can charge it/use it in a remote location (like an island) via solar
array
It is quiet - only the suspension groans and running gear makes noise
The batteries and motor fit (mostly) under the hood - some batteries under
back
All could be converted back to original - your transmission and transfer
case are retained - as well as OD (if you have it), etc.
It is more energy efficient - it uses electricity which is made with a less
refined fuel (to make gas requires using energy just to make it!)

I think that it makes great sense if you are the type who wants to use it
around town, less than 60 or so miles per day (that would be most of us)
OR
If you are one of the people who trailers their LR to off road areas - use
it there
OR
Use it in a remote local with its own battery/solar charging

It is easy to maintain - yes it can wade - it costs about $8000 for all the
items to convert your vehicle - no the batteries do not leak

Before you throw Christmas pudding around, you best take a bite

I have (and will continue to do so) driven, sailed, motored, plowed with,
crawled around and flown most any vehicle that I can get my hands on.

Cheers
David
Full-time father of Alexander - 4 years old, this winter solstice
1970 Land Rover IIA, 88" - "BEAN TOAD"
S/V KALAKALA  - our home, an Ingrid 38, ketch rigged
wahooadv@earthlink.net

end of message

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From: "Steve Rochna" <mns@oasisol.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 19:17:32 -0800
Subject: ACR, Ltd.

Does anyone out there have an e-mail address for Automotive Component
Remanufacturing Ltd. in the UK?

Thanks - Steve

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

From: "Peter Hope" <phope@hawaii.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:47:19 -1000
Subject: Re: ACR, Ltd.

>Does anyone out there have an e-mail address for Automotive Component
>Remanufacturing Ltd. in the UK?
>Thanks - Steve

Don't have an email but do have the snail contact:
Automotive Component Remanufacturing Ltd, Reid Trading Estate, Factory Road,
Sandycroft, Deeside, Clwyd, CH5 2QJ.
I did find this scottish company that is a 'dealer' for them.
http://www.inverness.demon.co.uk/4all4s/secndpge.htm

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From: scott wilson <swilson@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 05:57:24 -0500
Subject: Lots of oil from under the valve cover?

Okay... first of all, I need to get some of the nomenclature
right. I'm not familiar with the actual engine block and the
parts attached to it... so I guess the very top thing is the
valve cover... under that is the cylinder head, and then is
the actual engine block? right? just making sure I know what
I'm talking about...

There has always been a little spot of fresh oil on one of
the corners where the head is bolted onto the block... 
never worried much about it as the oil level never dropped
or anything. Now, though, there is a ton of oil coming out
from under the vlave cover... about a quart every hundred
miles or so... (although last hundred miles, it took two
quarts - is it getting worse exponentially?)

I know that the cyliner head was rebuilt this summer right
before I bought it... there is bright orange stuff between
the valve cover, head, and block... I don't know if this 
is in place of the gasket or in adition to it... 

what should I do... I'm driving another 400 miles today,
I drove about 600 yesterday like this, and I have a few
days at my parents where I can work on it before I have
to drive the 1000 miles back... 

The oil system is something that has always escaped me.

thanksfor any help...

-Scott

1973 SIII

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From: scott wilson <swilson@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 05:56:28 -0500
Subject: Many Thanks...

Well, although I haven't slept in my own bed in about five
weeks, I finally at least get to sleep in the one I slept
in when I was little. I'm back from my paris-england trip,
and I just want to say thanks to Keith Mollenhoff and 
Frank Elson for making my trip a little easier... Keith
took care of my truck while I was gone, and so i knew the
Series III would be ready for my 1000 mile journey when I 
got home. (I have more on that in a second)

I'd also like to say thanks to frank for putting me up for
a night on fairly short notice and fairly close to xmas.
it was good to see someone from the list (and to get some
Thwaite's - great brew)

Also I'd like to say thanks to all the other guys that 
offered to let me leave the rover at their places...

and now for the rover problems...

-Scott

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