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msgSender linesSubject
1 tspoto@az.com (Thomas Sp19Re: Waving
2 Andy Woodward [azw@aber.12 Re: LR off road clinic
3 marsden@digicon-egr.co.u21Re: Waving
4 "Bobeck, David R." [dbob107Re: Downeast Rally/ Diesel Road Trip(s) Part Trois
5 "Bobeck, David R." [dbob23Frameover news brief
6 ecrover@midcoast.com (Mi73Imports
7 Dixon Kenner [dkenner@em63Re: Importing Defender 90 (fwd)
8 philippe.carchon@rug.ac.14Billing
9 Dixon Kenner [dkenner@em19Re: Imports
10 Russ Burns [burns@cisco.22Trip to Alaska
11 Michel Bertrand [mbertra26Nada 6 cyl parts for sale
12 Spenny@aol.com 42Re: 1995 D90 SW Owners reaction
13 rvirzi@gte.com (Robert A14Re: to winch or not to winch
14 Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus [A5Re: to winch or not to winch
15 rvirzi@gte.com (Robert A12Re: 1995 D90 SW Owners reaction
16 Richard Brownlee [10136031Billing error
17 "Adams, Bill" [badams@us29You've COME ALONG way baby...
18 tspoto@az.com (Thomas Sp22Re: to winch or not to winch
19 Dixon Kenner [dkenner@em17Jack-all me off (was: You've COME ALONG way baby...)
20 ELAGUE@umassd.edu 13More Ranting about Waving...
21 ahyoon@students.wisc.edu19Fire in the hole! ...err Rover?!
22 ahyoon@students.wisc.edu21Engine Braking w/ Auto
23 "Bob Frey" [frey@smtp.pv18Re: Engine Braking w/ Auto
24 12/4/95 [rsloan@titan.li31Limited What?
25 Jim Pappas [roverhed@m3.57RE: WD-40 silicone NOT!
26 ecrover@midcoast.com (Mi19Winches
27 Michael Carradine [cs@cr28LROA meeting reminder, 7/21
28 rover@pinn.net (Alexande24The Girling Treatment
29 David Place [dplace@SIRN12Re: LR off road clinic
30 Allan Smith [smitha@cand30Re: LR off road clinic
31 landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mi32Re: to winch or not to winch
32 uf974@freenet.victoria.b60Speedo woes from darkest BC
33 "Steve Reddock" [steve_r24Vinyl cleaning
34 sjak.r.haaheim@vg.no 3[not specified]
35 marsden@digicon-egr.co.u29Re: Armoured Land Rovers


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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 06:40:17 -0700
From: tspoto@az.com (Thomas Spoto)
Subject: Re: Waving

>Why do Series drivers wave ?
>Why don't coil drivers wave? 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 17 lines)]
>Brian -wipe wipe- Cotton
>South Africa 

I beg to differ I have a good heater as well as heated windscreens and still
seem to flail my arms in the presence of other Rovers. Well Series get the
flailing arms "coilers" get an acknowledging wave (generally
unacknowledged). I did once have a lady in a Disco start the exchange.
Tom
tspoto@az.com
        2 x 72 88's one in a state of flux, no not brazing flux
        1 x 67 88  truck cab, Kodiak Heater, no need for heated windscreens

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From: Andy Woodward <azw@aber.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:25:25 +0000
Subject:  Re: LR off road clinic

>>>>Any info on the engine/ underbody cleaning would be greatly
>>>>appreciated! 

!!!!!!CLEANING!!!!!!!

Hell! That's >free underseal<

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From: marsden@digicon-egr.co.uk (Richard Marsden)
Subject: Re: Waving
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 14:31:01 BST

> >This is how it works:---
> >Why do Series drivers wave ?
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
>         2 x 72 88's one in a state of flux, no not brazing flux
>         1 x 67 88  truck cab, Kodiak Heater, no need for heated windscreens

I was up in the Yorkshire Dales hiking, over the weekend. Whilst off the
main trunk road, I didn't see a single Discovery or Range Rover (amazing for
any part of the country in the UK). Plenty of working Land Rovers (as would
be expected), and Series IIIs outnumbered Defenders by quite a large
margin. All working vehicles (bar mine). Oh, and Yorkshire Farmers don't
wave - even when they meet a Series III - probably cos they're as common
as sheep!

Richard

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 08:53:53 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Subject: Re: Downeast Rally/ Diesel Road Trip(s) Part Trois

OK, time to wrap this thing up....

7/5 (actually VERY early 7/6) It must've been when the firewood ran out, we all 
decided to hit the hay, and so we did. The aspirin to beer ratio was about right
and I slept like a hibernating beast.

7/6 I must've been the last one up. I had to sit still for a minute to make sure
I wasn't hung over. Nope, no headache, no queasies, everything checks out, all 
systems go. So I get up and dodder over to the "bathhouse" to freshen up. 
Feeling human again I returned to camp and withdrew the 109 from tent pole 
service and "prepped" her for the rigors of off-road day. That is to say, I put 
the toolbox in the back and took the empty beer cans out of the spare tire. We 
stopped for a very cheap but oh-so-satisfying breakfast across the street from 
the Whale's Tooth Pub. By the time we were done there was a nice line of a dozen
or so Rovers in the parking lot. Quite a nice sight... It was really fun 
driving around town and seeing Rovers everywhere. Sort of like if all the Range 
Rovers and Disco(e)s in posh Georgetown were replaced by Series landies and 90's
and 110's. 

So then off we went to the Off-Road Day. Stopping for gas along the way, we saw 
Dixon at the station. Seems he and Dale arrived rather late the night before due
to some "technical difficulties".  We arrived at the Off-Road site and waited a 
half-hour or so while everybody arrived. One of the guys from East Coast Rover 
gave us a quick "you might break stuff so be careful" speech, then opened the 
course. I was in a borrowed vehicle so was a little hesitant about taking it out
without seeing the track first. I had never been off road in a Range Rover so I 
jumped in with Bill C. The course started with a muddy, rocky (par for the 
course) slope that led up to the first obstacle, an "articulation alley" made up
of logs at least a foot round laid out in a shallow "v". The Range Rover got up 
onto it with no difficulty, then the sidestep hung up on the way off. We backed 
up and went for it again with some more gusto and the step just kept sliding, 
and off we went. I think the course marshal was yelling "left!, left!", or 
something, we'll never know. After that it was more slippery slime and then a 
short log bridge over a shallow ditch. Enough to drop a wheel through but not 
deep enough to cause real heavy damage. The Rangie crawled right over it 
without a hitch. I was starting to have second thoughts about taking the 109 
out... Then it was on to the hill climb after going through more crud. While 
waiting we heard that somebody fell off the bridge. Everybody ran over and 
started taking pictures, until the vehicle (a pastel green SIIA 88" Maine tags, 
are you on the list?) was quickly winched out and on its way. The hubbub died 
down and we went back to do the hill climb. Again no problem. Then on through 
more muck and mire, to one stretch where the mud was so soupy that everybody 
was having a tough time getting through. The owners of the farm had their 
tractor out and were pulling trucks through and lifting out huge boulders to 
help clear the track. There was red 109 in front of us that had a tough time 
here and had to get towed through. After that it was up and around over a small 
hill, where we went the wrong way and had to do some careful navigating to get 
through without busting a diff open on the rocks. Bill was complaining of a new 
squeak in the suspension. Then it was on through the muck, and then through some
muck. After that we went through some muck. Then it was down a short, steep, 
slope into the big puddle that was about bumper deep, and I didn't see anybody 
get stuck in it, in fact by the end of the day folks were driving through it 
"top" speed, splashing mud and water everywhere. What fun. We parked the Rangie,
and did the "what did I break this time" inspection. Aside from a dented and 
probably bent steering stabilizer and side steps that had *a little* more ground
clearance, everything looked OK. All through lunch I waffled back and forth 
over whether to try the 109  on the off road. I finally decided to go for it, 
and got in line. The first section of uphill was fine, up until the log pile. I 
would get about halfway over and just start slipping. After a few tries and some
additional help the Rover went over. Some guy in a Disco a few cars ahead had 
lost a bumper cap. OOPS. Then it was off to the log bridge. Again we went right 
over, no problem. At the end of the log bridge there is a short climb, and for 
some reason the 109 just could not make it up. After getting towed up the hill, 
I thought about it, and remembered Bill telling me he had the tires inflated up 
to 85 psi!! No wonder. One of the guys suggested I back up at the top of
the hill and air down. Fine suggestion. I managed to back onto a rock that 
wouldn't let go, and the tractor with the front loader(!) on it was pressed into
service and lifted the rear end so i could drive off. We managed to get to a 
spot where we could pull over and air down. it was taking forever so we went 
down to 32 psi and got back on the way. On to the hill climb. I bogged the 
engine trying it in second, so put it in first and went straight up. The next 
section was the mud bog which, along with most of the course, had seriously 
deteriorated. The 109 couldn't make it over one of the larger rocks and again 
was towed out. Up around the bend, and then through some DEEP ruts, where the 
steering wheel whipped around and almost took off my thumb. OUCH! That one STILL
hurts. Right as that happened the left sill got too close to a rock and we had 
to use the high lift to get the truck back on course. A quick shunt and we were 
on our way to the puddle. Yay! we went through the puddle. Yippee. I immediately
headed for the soda table and shoved my thumb into a cup of ice, where it stayed
for the remainder of the day. The only damage to the truck was a couple of 
bashed up sill panels, which when I showed them to Bill, he said "Oh you mean 
those, we can just bang those out"... 

Unfortunately I had to head out Saturday night, as I had to work Monday morning 
and was facing and 18-hour drive...
I won't go into detail on the trip home as it was entirely uneventful, except 
for seeing Yvette in Boston again, but I won't bore you with all that 
"non-Rover"
stuff.

Anybody that has pictures or video of my follies please reply, I'd like to get 
some copies if there's anything good...
 
Thanks to Bill Adams for being a sport...
Nice to see all of you up there...
Best get on down to the Mid Atlantic this fall...

Cheers
I'd be sorry about the bandwidth but you all could only muster up 8 new messages
this morning so forget it...

Dave "I was in the limestone diesel 109 with the bugs attached" B. 

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 09:11:51 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@inetgate.ushmm.org>
Subject: Frameover news brief

Hey all.

Here's the latest progress.

Brakes rebuilt, still need to run some pipes, engine sealed up I hope, and block
painted. Installed engine last Sunday. Installed flywheel and new clutch. 
Gearbox is in the shop with a friend of mine who has done many a 'box and we are
going to strip it down tonight. We had the covers off last night and he says it 
shouldn't be a big deal. Ordered all new bearings and seals for the main box. 
Transfer box seems ok, so i'm not gonna fuss with it. I will pull the bottom 
cover though to make sure it's ok. Still waiting on the bulkhead to come back 
from the welder...Aside from that it's figure out what to do with the wiring, 
and rebuild the rear tub. Then it should all bolt right together...

Cheers
dave B.

Arlington VA

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:30:30 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (Mike Smith)
Subject: Imports

Dear All,
        The desire to import Defenders and late model SIII's seem to go in
waves. Nothing for months, then recently a flood of calls. A few
individuals may get some through...and more power to them!! I love it!!!
BUT, if someone who doesn't know any better buys something that is not
entirely above board, or doesn't know the problems and risks, that is a bad
thing. No names, but a few companies seem to now specialize in importing
what are basically illegal, or re-numbered Rovers. If you understand that
this is being done, I'll gladly send you to them, as they do not compete
with East Coast Rover at all! The market they handle is 180 degrees from
our clients.
        Basically, nothing newer than 25 years old can cross a US border
legally, without having been, as I call it Fedralized. The fedraization
process is a long and costly one, and can only be carried out by a US
registered importer, of which their are only about 15 around the US, and
none are Land Rover specialists. EPA and DOT laws, EPA will allow diesels
and such for newer models, up to Jan 1, 1976, gasoline models are on the 25
year policy, BUT that doesn't get you by the DOT regulations. So DOT is the
hang up, and the form you need to import a vehicle to the US is DOT form HS
7 *rev. 8.93*, this applies to OMB No. 2127 0002, Public Law 100 562, 15
USC 1397, 1916, and 2027. This form is the key...it has 12 different
situations under which you can import a vehicle. Unless you are in the
military, importing a race car, or are a diplomat, your pretty much stuck
with box number 1, that states...The vehicle is 25 or more years old or, if
a motorcycle, is 25 or more years old or was manufactured before January 1,
1969; or the equipment item was manufactured on a date when no applicable
Fedral Motor Vehicle Safety, or Theft Prevention Standard was in effect.
*591.5i*
        Years of trying to find a way around have meant long talks with
everyone from US Customs to DOT to EPA. No variation exists, you can't
legally re-number a 1980 SIII as a 1965 and import it, they consider that
fraud, and if caught it is a crime. You can't sign the bottom of the DOT
form with any mis-information, or that is a FELONY, a crime called
defrauding the government. Any US form you sign with incorrect information
is a crime. * I don't agree with this stuff it is just the facts * No where
in the minds of the any officials I talked to is there any provisions for
taking a D90, putting it on another older chassis *don't know how you'd get
it to fit anyway* and legally getting it in. It doesn't work that way. No
matter what chassis, no matter what anything, it is the running gear,
safetly gear, lights, brakes, locks, seat belts, etc. that the DOT is
concerned about, not the year of the chassis, and just how many perfect pre
1969 chassis are out there for all these SIII's? Think before you buy. The
UK will let anything out, it is coming over the US border that is the
problem. So I could go on and on, but this all came about when a US Customs
Offical from the South called me about certain cases they are looking into.
I told them I couldn't help them, but it does make you wonder what they are
looking into, and a seized Rover is not a good thing...for anybody.
        So basically... be careful out there, and remeber just because you
are told something, doesn't mean it was true, or legal, or you should spend
your hard earned money on it. It doesn't matter to me, as it is your Rover
and your money, and we are so backed up I can't even turn around, but I
don't like to see the Rover crowd, including those who attend our Off Road
day and those I talk to frequently, looked upon as idiots by people out to
just make money off them. Make sure your Rover source is a hobbyist as
well! Don't want to believe me, call a freight forwarder in your area and
ask for DOT form HS 7, and EPA form 3520 1, or go through the government go
round...
        US Customs 202.622.2000
        DOT 202.366.1111 or 202.366.4570
Good luck.

From: Mike Smith
East Coast Rover Co.                    207.594.8086
21 Tolman Road  *Rt. 90*                207.594.8120 fax
Warren, Maine 04864                     ecrover@midcoast.com
    Land Rover Service, Sales, Restoration, and More
        Series Coil Chassis Specialists

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: Importing Defender 90 (fwd)

	I have been getting a lot of mail lately about bringing vehicles
	into the United States, what is legal etc.  To start, assuming
	that you have a completely legal vehicle (built 1967 or earlier)
	that meets the old Customs regulations, or one built between
	1967 and 1971 (new regulations not reflected on the forms yet,
	thus it may not be worth arguing with Mr Customs Man about who
	is correct.  They always are...) read the FAQ on importing this
	stuff into the USA:  

	http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/OVLR/FAQ.5.parts.customs.usa.html

	Now, if you have something other than this, whether or not *you*
	can bring it in or not all comes down to how energetic you may
	want to be, and what the laws are in your particular state about
	titling and registering basically a "kit truck".  But, and this
	is a big one, this approach, if viable, does not mean that you
	can go bring in a Defender 90 as a very early Series III claiming
	that there is a coil conversion hiding underneath, and/or there
	has been an engine swap performed, or the chassis is really an 
	Arrow 88 coil chassis etc.  Your vehicle/parts might just sit on the
	end of a dock somewhere for quite a while.

	Basically, you can go ahead and try and bring that 110 into the
	USA.  You may succeed (or someone else may succeed for you <ahem>),
	but if you don't do it correctly, and be able to prove parts sources,
	invoices, you built it, it really was parts, etc. Mr. CustomsMan
	can come and seize that vehicle.  Hey, Big Sky in Montana (supplier
	of authentic military parts, guaranteed to have been trashed by 
	the British Army under Canadian Customs rules before disposal) has
	a 110 available (wouldn't touch it with a barge pole).  Go and buy
	it.  The chap will say it is legal etc.  Problem is that it isn't
	and Customs will eventually take it away from you, if they ever
	get their act together, which in a bureaucracy is only a matter 
	of time.

	Free advice (there are other ways, but you can figure them out...)

	If I lived in the USA and wanted a 110 with a TDi?  I would live in
	a State that allows me to registed assembled vehicles.  I'd go to
	England myself and find one, disassemble it and pack it into three
	different containers/pallets which would come over seperately and 
	a few weeks or more apart.  All would be inventoried etc.  Spares
	would be mixed in at the same time.  I would go get these crates etc.
	over time (probably one a month or so) and then put the thing
	together myself, or with friends, or at some trusted place to do
	it for me.  I would then get it safetied and registered as per 
	the rules and regulations that allow this kind of kit-car/home
	build stuff.  I would not go and buy anything that has been brought
	over by a third party whatever they claim.  Even the above can be 
	a risk if Customs gets curious and/or upset with you.  Now, if you
	are doing this 110 or D90 for yourself, you are a hell of a lot 
	safer than someone else doing the above and reselling the vehicle.
	US Customs doesn't seem to like this aspect of free enterprise
	as much as you would.

	Remember, this is the USA we are talking about, not Canada with much 
	more lax rules.  Your Customs service is slightly bigger and meaner 
	than ours.

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:38:22 +0200
From: philippe.carchon@rug.ac.be (philippe)
Subject: Billing

Hi Richard,

If I see the red Dormobile I'll come and say hi !
BTW: you mentioned the camp site is full , also for a small tent (no car) ? 
I have to sleep somewhere !

Philippe Carchon 
Ghent, Belgium
'81 Lightweight (not going to Billing)

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:41:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: Imports

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Mike Smith wrote:

>         The desire to import Defenders and late model SIII's seem to go in
> waves. Nothing for months, then recently a flood of calls. A few

	You have been getting the calls lately too...

	My favourite is still the chap in Dallas that wanted to know
	how to install air conditioning into his 130 hi-capacity pick-up
	once it arrived from the UK.  Didn't seem to realise that in
	Canada getting them colder is not a problem.  Getting them 
	warmer was of much greater concern to us.  Also told him to
	give a ring when he actually had it licensed and on the road.
	A 130?  Now that's pushing it...

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:05:18 -0700
From: Russ Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Trip to Alaska

Heres a quick update on the  summer adventure.
We wandered thru Minnisota, S Dakota, spent a few days in the black hills.
>From there we wandered to the Bighorn mountions in Wy., headed south
thru Jackson Hole, down to Salt Lake. In Salt Lake I picked up an
aluminan roof rack for  the D-90. Then headed south to the colorado
springs area. Spent a few days in the mountions with some friends
who flew in from Ca. Then we headed up to Colorado for the
bike, bog, and canoe triathlon, put on by Bill Burke
Me and my partner Barry Bloom had a great time. Check out the
event at http://www.suv.com/live/
We are now in gardner MT. packing for the alaskan part of the adventure.

Have great fun
Russ Burns
Joyce Burns
Cassie Burns
one muddie blue D-90

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:16:55 -0400
From: Michel Bertrand <mbertran@InterLinx.qc.ca>
Subject: Nada 6 cyl parts for sale

Hello all, 

I have some 6 cyl Nada parts for sale such as Brake servo, carb, fuel pump
(holding together with some electrical tape) and other bits and pieces.

Parts are located in Sherbrooke, Quebec, North of Vermont. Can arrange
shipping or delivery at Stowe in September.

100$ Cadn (that's about 60 $ U.S)

Thank you.

mbertran@interlinx.qc.ca

Michel Bertrand

Sherbrooke, Quebec, Canada, 

1963 109 PU (Rudolph)
1968 109 SW (in the works)
1973 88 SW (21st century project)

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From: Spenny@aol.com
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:52:41 -0400
Subject: Re: 1995 D90 SW Owners reaction

Some huge whiner writes....

  LRNA positioned our 500 vehicles as the end of the Defender run, never to
snip...

  Defenders availability in the US, one that will adversely affect the

  limited nature of our vehicles. Interested in getting other owners input

  on this subject and the groups interest in having a dialog with LRNA

  about plans that will affect our ownership experience.

What sort of elitist tripe is this? 
<Rant on>
This is exactly the sort of crap that divides series owners and the coil
sprung owners. Can you hear your cell phone over the wind noise? Why did you
buy this truck? Because you love Rovers? Because you know you will sacrifice
valuble time, money and the patience of loved ones for its up-keep? Or did
you buy it just so you could feel smug and superior on your way to the
country club? We love rovers, do you, or do you take solace in the fact that
only 176 D90SW's were built before yours? Get a grip, only about about 1.76
million rovers were produced before yours.
Ownership experience?, You want the ownership experience?, You can't handle
the ownership experience?
<Rant off>
you probably don't wave either....

Spenny
Proud owner of number 629,785/1,285,681 series rovers produced.
Interested in getting in contact with anyone who digs rovers.

1969 SWB The Wayback Machine <-- *New Frame*
Soon to be Ex of Haverhill Mass.
Land Rovers on the Information Superhighway, 
what will they think of next?

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:28:07 +0100
From: rvirzi@gte.com (Robert A. Virzi)
Subject: Re: to winch or not to winch

Franklin wrote:
>Have you considered carrying a come-a-long for emergency use?

I've thought about it, but I hear that Tom is writing an article or FAQ on
various sorts of manual winches.  Should be ready any day now, right Tom?
;-)   Bob (Hey, I'd write it but I don't know anything about them)

  rvirzi@gte.com             Think Globally. ===
  +1(617)466-2881                            === Act Locally!

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From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 17 Jul 96 13:41:49 EDT
Subject: Re: to winch or not to winch

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:23:09 +0100
From: rvirzi@gte.com (Robert A. Virzi)
Subject: Re: 1995 D90 SW Owners reaction

>1969 SWB The Wayback Machine <-- *New Frame*
                                   ^^^^^^^^^
Spenny-
Is that before or after Downeast?       -Bob

  rvirzi@gte.com             Think Globally. ===
  +1(617)466-2881                            === Act Locally!

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Date: 17 Jul 96 15:16:51 EDT
From: Richard Brownlee <101360.3273@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Billing error

Sorry all

It seems that every time I sit at this keyboard and post to these lists I cock
it up.   

I did say:

>I saw the post a little while back about meeting outside the beer tent on
saturday >5pm.  Is this still on?  I have only just been able to get the time to
attend so the >LRO camping is full - I will be camping in the Billing area in a
red Dormobile KHG >820G - arriving saturday - come and say hi.

What I meant to say was the meeting outside the LRO stand.   Oops.

- also to prevent any further confusion;  By 'Billing Area' I meant the Billing
Aquadrome camping area which is within the same complex as the LRO show camping
area, not 'in the general vicinity of Billing'.   - still confused?  so am I   

Nurse!

Regards again

Richard

Surrey UK
77 Range Rover

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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 15:35:36 -0400
From: "Adams, Bill" <badams@usia.gov>
Subject: You've COME ALONG way baby...

Okay, so you're stuck deep in the muck and you want to get out as fast as 
possible without a lot of fuss and muss. For straight line pulling, you 
would probably want to go with the winch option, as they are designed to 
more or less clean-and-jerk the vehicle. 
A Come-Along can help, but it must be used in accordance with its 
engineering. First of all, the lever arm on these tools is usually short 
- a mechanical advantage must be contrived. This will almost always 
involve snatch blocks and doubling of the line of pull so that the 
effective pulling force of the tool is doubled or tripled.
Second, the amount of cable on the spool is pretty meager (or 
non-existant for cable pulls), so carrying extra somehow has to be 
addressed (another thing flopping around the back of the truck).
Third issue is safety. A parting cable can be deadly, and standing next 
to one under high tension can be nerve wracking. Throwing coats or 
blankets over the cable will reduce its velocity should it give up. (this 
holds true for ANY winch)
The advantages of a come-along are its low cost and freedom from battery 
or engine power. The disadvantages are the lack of cable length, 
necessity of many accessories: snatch blocks, tree straps, extra cable, 
shackles,etc. and low pulling power.
The best option is to use the "buddy system" off-road. If one vehicle 
fails to clear an obstacle, the other is there to assist.
Bill Adams
3D Artist/Animator

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:21:29 -0700
From: tspoto@az.com (Thomas Spoto)
Subject: Re: to winch or not to winch

>               ...snip...
>Opinions? Also, would even a 2000 pound come-along be a safe addition for 
>vehicle recovery?
>   aj"Proudly paranoid"r

Yes, even a 1 ton come-along will help. I was once part way off a track in
the coastal mtns here. I was rigging a come-along to pull myself sideways
back onto the track when a convoy of jeeps came along. We rigged a tow to
the first jeep who proceeded to pull me resulting in pulling me further off
the track before he lost traction. Many ideas were thought of before I went
back to the original plan and used the come-along to pull sideways.  Out in
three minutes.

Tom Spoto
tspoto@az.com
        2 x 72 88's  one has an old Warn 
        1 x 67 88    has a Koenig winch but not on it at the moment

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:26:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.NRCan.gc.ca>
Subject: Jack-all me off (was: You've COME ALONG way baby...)

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Adams, Bill wrote:

> A Come-Along can help, but it must be used in accordance with its 
> engineering. First of all, the lever arm on these tools is usually short 
> - a mechanical advantage must be contrived. This will almost always 
>.
	My experience with come-alongs is that they are generally junk.
	What is more useful is some chain, and/or wire rope and a 
	jack-all.  Granted they only move you about three feet in
	a shot, but they have tremendous pulling power.  Many times
	you really don't need to move yourself 100 feet.  Many times
	just getting a few feet out of the hole you dug will suffice.

------------------------------
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From: ELAGUE@umassd.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:57:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: More Ranting about Waving...

I hate to clog up bandwidth with another interminable comment about waves,
but here I go.
     A while ago, while riding in an aquaintance's automobile (non-Rover),
we passed by a '96 Disco (pretty nice black one with headlamp guards).  A
fairly attractive female of about 29 [ :-> ] was driving the vehicle, so I
waved and smiled.... The bitch gave me the worst sour faced look I've ever
seen...

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:20:25 -0500
From: ahyoon@students.wisc.edu (Arnold Yoon)
Subject: Fire in the hole! ...err Rover?!

Gee whiz!  Hmmm.....I must say that this is Lucas at his worst....Maybe I
will reconsider completely rewiring the Disco....(I know, I'm
demented)....well, maybe not...with my luck, the damned air bag will pop
out and kill me....gotta get rid of that thing....anyone know of any good
ideas, except taking a BIG knife and poking a hole in it?

Arnold Yoon
University of Wisconsin - Madison
E-Mail: ahyoon@students.wisc.edu
Voice: (608) 259-9936

Land Rover 4 Ever!
1995 Land Rover Discovery
"Four Wheel Drive Exemplified"

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:20:22 -0500
From: ahyoon@students.wisc.edu (Arnold Yoon)
Subject: Engine Braking w/ Auto

To address Bob's question....

We have a 1995 Disco NAS with the ZF autobox.  To be honest with you, I
haven't taken it off-road anywhere when I had to use Low-Low (Low, 1).  I
know, I should be ashamed of myself.  The best indication that I can give
you is this.....I tried it going down a smooth paved driveway (ours) 50
feet, 35-40 degree incline...I had no problem keeping it under 5-6 mph.

Arnold Yoon
University of Wisconsin - Madison
E-Mail: ahyoon@students.wisc.edu
Voice: (608) 259-9936

Land Rover 4 Ever!
1995 Land Rover Discovery
"Four Wheel Drive Exemplified"

------------------------------
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Date: 17 Jul 1996 14:32:47 -0700
From: "Bob Frey" <frey@smtp.pvr.com>
Subject: Re: Engine Braking w/ Auto

35-40 degrees? That's some driveway!

Bob Frey
D-90 "Red"

 ------ From: Land-Rover-Owner@Land-Rover.Team.Net, Wed, Jul 17, 1996 =
------ 

We have a 1995 Disco NAS with the ZF autobox.  To be honest with you, I
haven't taken it off-road anywhere when I had to use Low-Low (Low, 1).  I
know, I should be ashamed of myself.  The best indication that I can give
you is this.....I tried it going down a smooth paved driveway (ours) 50
feet, 35-40 degree incline...I had no problem keeping it under 5-6 mph.

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:32:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: 12/4/95 <rsloan@titan.liunet.edu>
Subject: Limited What?

Alot of this talk about the D90 being a limited edition can be resolved 
very simply.  If you spent 30+ g's and took your new truck and stuck him 
in a garage because someone told you they would appreciate over the years 
because there wouldn't be any new ones coming over, then it would appear 
that you are sh*t out of luck.  I guess now you would have to start 
driving it and have some fun, or sell it for pretty much what you paid 
for it. (My dealer asked me if I thought about selling mine for about 
3 grand more than I paid.  No sale.)  An investment is a risk, you might win,
you might lose.  However, if, like me, you spent your 30+ g's on what you 
thought was an amazing truck that would last you for thirty or forty 
years, then the idea that I might be joined on the road by a few hundred 
more D90's every year is not that upsetting.  It will give my friends a 
chance to own one, then I'll stop raving about mine and listen to them 
for a while with a knowing grin on my face.  Besides, I'd rather drive a 
stick than an auto any day, and most people I know would too.  If you're 
worried about selling your Defender, don't.  I'm pretty sure there will 
always be a demand for them, a production run of 500 vehicles is not that 
many.  So basically, your owner experience is what you make of it, and 
I'm having a blast with mine!

P.S.  I am almost certain the LRNA instructor said Series IV with tongue 
in cheek, not at all like a serious historical revision.

Rich,
95 D90 not sure of the number...
 

------------------------------
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From: Jim Pappas <roverhed@m3.pcix.com>
Subject: RE: WD-40 silicone NOT!
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 11:24:59 -0400
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Absolutely!!
No SILICONE product should be used on auto interiors!! It is synthetic =
and will indeed clog the pores in vinyls and plastics that are necessary =
for them to breathe. WD-40 is outstanding - leaves no residue, and gives =
a slight glow - suitable alternative is CRC-brand 5-56.

cheers
Jim

----------
From: 	Alexander P. Grice[SMTP:rover@pinn.net]
Sent: 	Tuesday, July 16, 1996 8:39 PM
Subject: 	WD-40 silicone NOT!

John Tackley <jtackley.dit@state.va.us> wrote:

> I've seen recommendations for use of WD-40 and Silicone spray =
products.
>WHICH is it?
On vinyl dashes and seats, WD-40 is the *only* way to go.  (And this =
comes
from Chris "The Badger" Laws who earns his living making seats and =
tops...)
WD-40 is a petroleum product.  What is vinyl?  Essentially petroleum =
with a
few of its molecules rearranged. 

If you use "silicone" spray on seats and dashes (no comments from the =
pre-
Series III squad, please), it will clog up the pores and eventually =
crack
the material.  Worse, on seats, it'll make the stitching brittle.  Use
Armor-All and your seats will look fine...for a while.  A year or so =
later,
they will just fall apart at the seams.  (Mine did.  And The Badger did =
a
*great* job of reworking them.)  Cheers

      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.     |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 757-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    757-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 757-622-7056     |
      |                                                     |
      *----1972 Series III 88"------1996 Discovery SE-7 ----*

------ =_NextPart_000_01BB7411.0EE3D960

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:15:03 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (Mike Smith)
Subject: Winches

Dear all,
        I don't know if this can help anyone, but we just bought out
another old Land Rover dealer, and in the depths of the stuff was a Koenig
winch parts book, and manual. So if anyone needs part numbers or
instructions I'll be glad to look it up.
        See ya!

From: Mike Smith
East Coast Rover Co.                    207.594.8086
21 Tolman Road  *Rt. 90*                207.594.8120 fax
Warren, Maine 04864                     ecrover@midcoast.com
    Land Rover Service, Sales, Restoration, and More
        Series Coil Chassis Specialists

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 16:43:37 -0700
From: Michael Carradine <cs@crl.com>
Subject: LROA meeting reminder, 7/21

On 7/14/96, John Hess <jfhess@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
:
:A LROA meeting is scheduled for Sunday, July 21 at 11 AM.
:
:Place is San Jose Land Rover.
:
:Discussion concerning the new incorporation, transferrence of funds,
:insurance, and the newsletter.

Geoff Jackson confirmed that there will be a presentation by Renee Pray,
Land-Rover Representative, reportedly to handle customer complaints for
Northern California, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and Hawaii.  This should
be of particular interest to the Disco, Defender and RR membership.

Land-Rover San Jose is at 5080 Stevens Creek Blvd., San Jose, CA 95129
located near the onramp/exit just East of Hwy 280.  Meeting space (and
last time, coffee with free thermal RR mugs!) is provided courtesy of Ken
Boswell, Sales Manager, phone 408-247-7600, fax 408-261-6975.

Hope to see everyone there!

Michael Carradine
VP pro tem LROA

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:10:37 -0400
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: The Girling Treatment

Hank Lapa wrote:

>...I wonder if using a bit of Girling on rubber might be a good idea....

On rubber, sure.  But it eats the hell out of the paint work, so be careful. 
Girling/Castrol fluids are organic-based, glycol actually, wheras most "DoT" 
fluids are petroleum=based.  Years ago, this was of major importance, but 
all seals and hoses manufactured in the last half-dozen years (even British 
ones) are neoprene rather than natural rubber; the old admonition about 
using only glycol brake fluid is no longer necesary.

      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |     Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd.     |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 757-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    757-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 757-622-7056     |
      |                                                     |
      *----1972 Series III 88"------1996 Discovery SE-7 ----*

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:00:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Place <dplace@SIRNet.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: LR off road clinic

I have found that if you rally want to get the mud off the engine and 
frame, you can go to a company which specializes in cleaning heavy 
equipment like cats etc.  They use a machine called a steam jenny among 
other names.  It produces super heated steam under pressure.  It cleans 
better than any hot water cleaner you can do at home.  The high pressure 
car washes arn't bad, but most produce lots of water with little soap and 
some use recycled water as well.  Dave VE4PN

------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 00:54:48 -0500
From: Allan Smith <smitha@candw.lc>
Subject: Re: LR off road clinic

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, David Place <dplace@SIRNet.mb.ca> wrote:

>I have found that if you rally want to get the mud off the engine and 
>frame, you can go to a company which specializes in cleaning heavy 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
>some use recycled water as well.  
>A few months ago there was some discussion among people who had small furry 
rodents in their undercarriage. If you use cats to control them you could give 
them a rewarding wash after their forays into the oily depths.
(Sorry)

On the other hand, wouldn't superheated steam remove just about any anti-rust 
treatment that had been applied? Just how clean does the underneath need to be?
I need to get under the 90 with a hose about every second day to get mud out of 
the areas where it accumulates, but there is always a brown film left over the 
black Rover undercoating (ha ha)/Waxoyl combination. For me, the key is to make 
sure nowhere stays wet under a catchment of mud, and there are some really good 
catchments on the 90 frame. The channel above the outer rear crossmember, behind 
the rubber flap, is a choice one for example, but easily cleared with a garden 
hose with a jet nozzle. The tops of the front shocks hold a nice little puddle 
as well. Etc.
But - I'll find them all!
Allan
St. Lucia
  

------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 02:00:14 -0400
From: landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mike Loiodice)
Subject: Re: to winch or not to winch

Rich asks...

>Does anyone know a really cheap source of quality winches?
>So is it necessary to purchase a winch new?  What about proper mounting, 
>forward or rear? How do you determine the winch you need for your vehicle
>type?  Do I really need one?  
-

I bought a Ramsey 8000lb winch from a mail-order place for about half the
price of the same winch at local 4x4 supply places. (Check the ads in the
usual 4x4 magazines.)

You can find used winches... You may have to buy a new cable and depending
on the winch you might have to fabricate your own mounts. You will probably
get more use out of the winch if it is front mounted. You probably don't
want to go any smaller than 8000lb (single-line pull). I've had good luck
with the Ramsey for occasional use but I've talked to people who hated the
Ramsey and preferred a Warn winch. Depends on how often you need to use it,
I guess.

No matter what kind, the first time you need it, it is worth while.

I have used a come-along - once - before I bought the winch. It was slow
going, but I got out.

Cheers
Mike

------------------------------
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 23:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (Clinton D. Coates)
Subject: Speedo woes from darkest BC

It is becoming a running joke with my
family that something roverish happens
on every major trip I take with Emerson.
So far everything has been more or less
minor and annoying, not disatrarous.
Case in point:

My speedo started acting up on my way
up to Terrace for a job.  Looked at the
manual and it says it might be the worm
gear, cruddy cable, or the speedo itself.

Symptoms

1) Holds steady at about 30mph when doing
50+mph (was holding at about 40mph earlier)
under power.
2) If the accel. is let off (as in going 
down hill) the needle whips back up and
gives a proper and steady reading...
until accel. is resumed.
3) A chattery (small furry rodent?)
sound comes from the speedo sometimes.
4) The odometer is reading improperly
as well, suggesting the problem is
not too internal to the speedo?

I pulled the cable of the speedo and
shot a bunch of slick goop down it,
which did exactly nothing.  The end 
that goes into the speedo terminates
in a 2cm by ca. 3mm square section
with serrations around the edge.  The
last 4-5mm appers to be rounded off
a bit.  Is this normal?

The tranny was just rebuilt about
25K ago, so probably not the worm
drive?  If it is the speedo, can
they be repaired? It seems rather
like a sealed unit

I am going to pull the whole thing
anyway, but I like having a bit of 
borrowed wisdom along.

Thanks in advance

CDC

--
 __x___x_  /    Clinton D. Coates  uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca    
|__|__|__\/__   
|     |   |_ |  *Emerson* 61 lwb pickup.....mostly runs
  (_)"""""(_)"  *If it doesn't leak, its not a Land Rover*

------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 04:49:13 EDT
From: "Steve Reddock" <steve_reddock@uk.xyratex.com>
Subject: Vinyl cleaning

Hi, I'll resist the temptation to torch the suggestion of WD40
on seats, was it a wind up?

How do you manage not to get oil on your clothes?

Doesn't it make it really slippery?

I'm trying to find something to clean my motorbike saddle with and
I don't want it slippery.  I have enough trouble hanging on while
it accelerates as it is, last thing I need is a greased saddle.

Does it really work?

Cheers, Steve

Steve Reddock, Xyratex        |  "NEVER QUESTION AN
Ext.(01705) 486363 x4450      |   ENGINEER'S OPINION,
IBMMAIL (GBXYR96P)            |   YOU THUNDERING MORON !"
Steve_Reddock@uk.xyratex.com  |     - Dogbert 1996

------------------------------
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From: sjak.r.haaheim@vg.no

------------------------------
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From: marsden@digicon-egr.co.uk (Richard Marsden)
Subject: Re: Armoured Land Rovers
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 96 10:34:46 BST

> Are you tired of your neighbour, throwing petrol bombs and stones at your 
> vehicle?
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 18 lines)]
>    Are these specially designed models found elsewhere?
>  Cheers from Norway, Sjak R. (Celebrating my first days on the net...)

Hi, Sjak!  

I hear that fuel economy would make the RUC Landies impractical for civilians
in the UK -
8mpg if you're lucky. Guess the Army and Police aren't too bothered by that.
They'd need the V8s with all that weight!
The conversions are done by a third party. There was an article in one
of the mags. in the past 6-12 months. The acronym "CAV" rings a bell.
Whoever does it, runs a similar business as Marshalls in Cambridge, although
I don't think its them. (Marshalls do special conversions - typically
military).

I've heard it suggested that the name Defender was chosen because of
the huge military market that Land Rover has/had. (Something like 40% of
all Series IIIs went to the World's armed forces).

Richard (ex-Gurkha SIII 109 FFR)

------------------------------
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