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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:19:16 -0500
From: Michael Kirk <michaelk@infi.net>
Subject: Re: silicone brake fluid

This type of brake fluid give a spongy feel to the brake pedal.  I 
suppose it could reduce ABS's effectiveness during rapid stops.  

I've used both and prefer dot 4 and change it every 2 years like the 
manual says..lokking at the fluid that comes out can tell you if you 
have serious problems with your brake system...

I would use sythetic ATF in your transmission..especially in cold 
climates.....any comments?
-- 
=============================================================  	 
        Michael Kirk "michaelk@infi.net"
       92 Range Rover   
      Graduate Student, MBA Program, Old Dominion University
      Norfolk, VA, USA  
       (804) 440-5383   
=============================================================

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:06:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Duncan Brown <DB@CHO004.CHO.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: silicone brake fluid

    One thing to remember about silicone brake fluid is that if you have
    even the tiniest bit of DOT 4 left in your system, you drastically
    diminish the benefits of the silicone.  So you have to really flush
    a lot of the stuff through your system when changing over, just to
    make sure you wash out the old stuff.

    Which brings us to the second thing to remember about silicone brake
    fluid: it is priced on a level about even with liquid gold...  So
    running a gallon of it through your system and throwing away what
    comes out will be a pretty agonizing experience.

    I did it when I first got my 88, when I replaced every single inch
    of metal and rubber line in the system (clutch too!), and thoroughly
    diasassembled, honed, and rebuilt all the master and slave
    cylinders.  So there was no old fluid to flush.

    I've had occasion to see some of the fluid in the system years later
    (when doing lots of bleeding for what turned out to be defective
    brake shoes, but that's a story for another day...) and there was
    not a bit of rubber, rust, or anything in it.  It was just as purple
    as the day I put it in.  But it was another occasion to cringe at
    the cost of what I was pumping through the system...

    Silicone should pay back in that you don't need to replace it every
    year or two because of water.  If you have a newer vehicle, it may
    well pay back when you spill some on your fender and it *doesn't*
    eat the paint like DOT 3 or 4 will.  My 1960 88's brake are just as
    rock-hard as can be, so if there's some issue with it being spongy,
    I can't notice it.  Buy it by the gallon to save money- last time I
    bought a gallon (5 years ago?) it was running about $50.  Buy a
    quart of it from NAPA to carry with you in the vehicle, for
    emergencies... 'cause nobody else is going to have any on 'em, and
    you don't want someone to pour DOT 4 in there to get you home...

    Duncan

------------------------------

From: JDolan2109@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:11:49 -0500
Subject: diagnosing RR's?

We're currently looking for a used RR, and, not having a whole lot of success
finding a 'grey market' version w/carbs, we're considering the purchase of an
'87 or '88. The technical nature of the injection system (not to mention the
power accessories) tend to scare me, as I fear I will not be able to diagnose
the inevitable problem(s?) that will come from prolonged ownership.  I don't
wish to find myself in a position where the only option is to trailer to a
dealer for computer diagnosis. I don't want to move away from trying to
achieve self-sufficiency. I had a '73 Volvo with a similar injection system
(though more primitive), but was able to use a volt/ohm meter to isolate
problems. Most repair to that was done by substitution, leading me to believe
the problems were really only a bad ground. Does the factory manual assist
with such info? Is there an alternative manual available? And which year
begins the use of the 'industry standard' diagnostics? It has been explained
to me that the systems are much more reliable today, and I need not worry so
much. As a last alternative, does anyone know of a conversion (other than
total motor swap), that would create an aspirated (carbs) motor? If that has
plausibility, might a '87 be easier? That might be a ludicrus thing to
consider, but I'm trying to consider everything here. I guess if I can't fix
it, I don't want to take the chance of breaking it, and fear my lack of
resources (diagnostic tools for me, money for others) could be found to be a
limitation. I have put in a request for a list of files from the LROD (here).
Perhaps a FAQ file will assist me...
Thanks for any advise...
No, it isn't Taylor...
see 'ya on the old road...
Jim '61 LR 88" SW / 1 Bbl Weber, OD & 16's  (econobox?)
       '60 P5 Mk1 4spd/OD LHD (628000165)
       '68 P6 SC Auto
       '68 P6 TC
       
P.S. Any help finding a used RR would be most appreciated. We're in central
Vermont, but will travel for a good vehicle. Upon acquisition, we will be a
totally Rover household.

------------------------------

From: JDolan2109@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:11:58 -0500
Subject: index lro-digest

index lro-digest

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:58:10 -0700
From: Tony Bonanno <tbonanno@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Silicone Brake Fluid

 For what its worth, I've been using DOT-5 Silicone in my Series IIA for
about 14 years with no adverse effects or evidence of deterioration of my
hydraulics.  The only thing I did prior to the change over is flush the old
system of its Castrol fluid.  The only caution I would suggest is that you
carry some extra DOT-5 silicone with you at all times.  If you should damage
a line or a seal goes, etc., DOT-5 silicone can be hard to find in some of
the more rural areas of the USA.  Most auto parts stores carrry it, but few
gas stations do.

Tony

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:12:26 -0800
From: uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (Clinton D. Coates)
Subject: Advanced Adapters address

Does anyone know the address/phone # for Advanced Adapters?
Are they "reputable"?

Thanks

--
 __x___x_  /    Clinton D. Coates  uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca    
|__|__|__\/__   
|     |   |_ |  *Emerson* 61 lwb pickup.....mostly runs
  (_)"""""(_)"  *If it doesn't leak, its not a Land Rover*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:14:28 -0800
From: uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (Clinton D. Coates)
Subject: Hubs and front end wear

Does driving with the front hubs unlocked most of the time lead
to excessive front end wear?  I have just put 20k on Emerson, most
on highway with unlocked hubs...is he toast?

--
 __x___x_  /    Clinton D. Coates  uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca    
|__|__|__\/__   
|     |   |_ |  *Emerson* 61 lwb pickup.....mostly runs
  (_)"""""(_)"  *If it doesn't leak, its not a Land Rover*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:23:39 -0500
From: Jeff & Laura Kessler <lmkessler@srnet.com>
Subject: Re: diagnosing RR's?

At 09:11 AM 2/18/96 -0500, you wrote:
>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
> * ** * To REPLY send to: lro@Land-Rover.Team.Net * ** * -bc
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 40 lines)]
>Vermont, but will travel for a good vehicle. Upon acquisition, we will be a
>totally Rover household.

Jim

I think alot of your concerns are justified.  When the Range Rover was
introduced to the USA they added alot of extras to it to appeal to the
luxury market.

We bought our 88 Range Rover about 6 months ago and I am amazed at the
quality of material used.  It is dependable (mostly, more later) but often I
am amazed at some of the cheap material in this "luxury" vehicle.  But
people were buying the name and image.  I always whated a series III or a
newer Defender but ours became available at a good price and we took it.
And probably like most of us we have had to spend more on it than we
originally figured.

As to your concerns:

We bought the RR with the EFI light lit and it has been lit ever since.  I
spoke with Rovers North about this before buying and they did not see it as
a big concern.  The prior owner had taken it into Automaster in Shelbourne
but they did not fix the problem.  The light is reset buy disconnecting
power and after reconnecting it takes the system about 15 minutes to figure
out to come on again.

Tomorrow I am going up to Automaster (2 hour ride) to have my gas tank
replaced (recall item) and will have them check again.  From where I am
Automaster and LR Metro West are the same distance, but Automaster was able
to get me in on tomorrow's holiday (in the USA).  I think I may be running
rich due to the light.

During some really cold days, our RR would not start.  The problem appeared
to be fouled plugs.  From talk on this digest, starting problems in the cold
even effect the new V8 Land Rovers.  As I learned from Rovers North, again,
cold enough weather will be read by the coolant temperture sensor during
starting as asking for more gas, causing flooding and fouling.  My fix was
to switch from the RN recommended Bosch plugs to a hotter, and specified in
my manual Champion plug.  This plug has also helped my heater output this
past winter.

The power seat switches will act up, there has been many fixes reported in
this digest.  I have one rear power window that never, in my 6 month,
worked.  Another thing to get to.  My drivers window appears to be
temperture sensitive. In cold weather I like to help it up.

The factory manual covers checking the fuel injection with a volt ohm meter
for 1988 at least (but never said how to reset the EFI light) but I have not
been too interested in playing around with this in the middle of winter.

I think switching a RR back to carb would be a step backwards, the RR
injection has some problems but I think carb would have their own set.

Being located in central Vermont, you are not far (for a Land Rover) from a
dealer or Rovers North for assistance or parts.

Good luck with your search.  As I said earlier I was looking told a Series
III and still would like one, but I would now hate to give up the Range
Rover as my daily ride.

Jeff Kessler
88 Range Rover with EFI light on and RN12YC plugs
Newport New Hampshire
603-863-7883

------------------------------

From: KKelly6788@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:40:39 -0500
Subject: Silicone (DOT 5) Brake Fluid

Silicone brake fluid comes up quite a bit on the BMW list, the question is
usually "I just got back from a weekend at the track and I am thinking about
switching to DOT 5 to reduce fade"

>However - am I right in saying that silicone fluid does not attract moisture
>and will not start to boil when brakes overheat? 

Silicone brake fluid does have a higher dry boiling point, but unlike glycol
based
fluids, silicone fluids become compressible independently of boiling, and at
a lower temperature than they boil at so the higher boiling point won't
really help you much.  The other big problem with silicone brake fluid is it
has a tendency to trap many tiny bubbles that will compress and give a
"spongy" pedal feel.

>And will not cause corrosion in your valuable original steel brake pipes?

Not absorbing water can be a disadvantage because if there is water trapped
in the system, (water will still come through the hoses by diffusion,) it
will 
settle out in the lowest points, causing rust or possibly freezing.

>after reading the manual on my Defender where they say every couple or so
>years "renew the brake and clutch fluid"

Silicone brake fluid is not compatible with DOT 3 and 4 fluid, so if you
switch all the fluid must be replaced.  I am not sure about Land Rover but
BMW and every other manufacturer that I am aware of warns against silicone
brake fluid on ABS equipped cars.

Kevin Kelly

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:08:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Hubs and front end wear

>>Does driving with the front hubs unlocked most of the time lead to
excessive front end wear?  I have just put 20k on Emerson, most on highway
with unlocked hubs...is he toast?

Not even toasty.  Like everything else automotive, there's no blessing in
lack of use.  You should engage them every so often to keep the parts
lubricated and free-moving.  That's all.  I have seen hubs that were unlocked
for years and years that were dificult to imposible to engage.  Some even
failed during the attempt to unfreeze them. - Tony

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:08:54 -0500
From: landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mike Loiodice)
Subject: Re: Bolt-on aluminum panels?

Eh???

> Pop rivets?  Cool...  Ummmm, where do I look on my '64 109 sw?<<<<<<<<<
>Look everywhere.  Almost the entire truck is put together with pop rivets.
> If you can't unscrew it or unbolt it, it's a pop rivet! - Tony

-
Pop-rivits... aren't those the guys with the nail in the middle??

Hmmmmmm?????

Cheers
Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:08:54 -0500
From: landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mike Loiodice)
Subject: Re: Land Rover Clothes, Toys, Watches, etc.

>I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get Land Rover stuff.  My 
>dealer only carries a handful of stuff.  Burago makes a large model of 
>the terrible Explorer, does anyone know if they have one for any Land 
>Rover?  I am in search for Camel Trophy gear, and models.

-
Burago used to have a SerIII 109... Britains makes some nice D90's and
Discoveries.

Cheers
Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 11:08:54 -0500
From: landrvr@blacdisc.com (Mike Loiodice)
Subject: Re: engine swaps

Mike Hooker asks...

>"Iron Duke",a 4-cyl Chev? engine from eg.the '78 chevelle.I'm having difficulty
>getting info on this engine...a friend insists it is the engine Pontiac used
>in the Fiero?

-
Somebody probably answered this already but I'm catching up on mail... The
Fiero engine was the marine version. You don't really want that. I think the
4 cyl in the Chevy Vega is what you are looking for. Maybe not.

I'm not up on Chevy engines, but don't the 4, 6, V-6 and small block V-8 all
use the same bolt pattern??

Cheers
Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:09:49 -0500
From: ag832@freenet.carleton.ca (Grant Wilkinson)
Subject: LR Quality

The post regarding the quality of Land Rovers, and Discos in particular
all seem to point to a common problem, and that is the complete lack of
attention to detail in Discos.  I have posted all the problems that I have
experienced with mine that have led me to the conclusion that I have a
lemon that will continue to plague me with problems until I can get rid o
the damn thing.  Land Rover Canada will not reply to faxes asking  for
assistance, which indicates to me that the Canadian distributor of this
marque is as arrogant as the factory itself.  The factory seems to be
relying on the long-standing reputation of the brand, and seems to believe
that it can produce a poor quality, sub-standard vehicle and that people
will continue to be foolish enough to lay out extremely large sums of
money for it.  The replies on this list indicate that I am not the only
owner that is having quality problems that should be be experienced in a
vehicle that costs as much as the Disco does.  The warranty repairs to
mine in the 5 months that I have owned it have amounted to almost $5,000. 
I don't know what the profit on a Disco is, but I suspect that this amount
is a significant portion of it.  Many of the problems I have had are not
major in of themselves, but they do indicate that quality control is not a
priority for LR.  I can only hope that BMW will help in that area, not
that it will help me with my lemon.  I would appreciate hearing from
anyone who have managed to get someone other than the dealer to sit up and
take notice.  I faxed LRNA last week, but I have not had a reply.  To be
fair, I will wait another week, then I will approach Solihull.  I hope
that this list can continue to be a forum for this issue.  Who knows,
maybe someone from Solihull monitors this list, and will come to realize
that LR's arrogance can only lead to more problems in the future.  In the
meantime, I am passing the word locally by displaying a lemon in the
windows of my Disco and by spreading the word at the local auto show recently.

Grant Wilkinson
'95 Disco LEMON

------------------------------

From: LAW142@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 15:20:03 -0500
Subject: REBUILT DEFENDER 110s in the USA

HI FROM AUSTIN,TEXAS USA!,

     I've been searching for a Defender 110 to purchase and drive in the USA
without having to buy one of the limited edition (500 NAS spec.)
yupie-mobiles that no one wants to let touch a dirt road.  I seem to have
found a few ways of getting a Defender but would like some more information
from the LR driving world about the possibilities of making an older 1971 or
older Series 109 look like a Defender 110.
     Is this possible?  Will this cost me as much as a used NAS spec Defender
110 (~$38,000 to $44,000)?  Who does this type of modification?

AFTER HAVING SPOKEN TO SEVERAL US GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS I HAVE LEARNED THAT
THE LAND ROVER SIDE OF THE INTERNET IS BEING MONITERED BY US CUSTOMS, AND US
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICIALS FOR LEADS TO INDIVIDUALS THAT SWITCH
THE DATA PLATES AND CHASIS (VIN NUMBERS) ON LAND ROVERS TO GET THEM INTO THE
USA.  IF YOU ARE AN INDIVIDUAL THAT DOES THIS I WOULD WATCH MY BACK AND
***NOT WRITE ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET***.

KARL YOUNG
1969 LR  SERIES IIA  109  STATION WAGON RHD  12SEATER

------------------------------

From: Harincar@mooregs.com (Tim Harincar)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:56:30 -0600
Subject: Frame Replacement Log: Week 6

Frame Replacement Log, Week 6

Bushings: LR: 7; Tim: 5

Its been a somewhat frustrating week. Pretty cold again. That is a drag.
Just getting motovated to go outside when its 10 degrees (f) is   
difficult.

The only advantage was that the bushings were nice and cold and hopefully
nice and contracted (but I learned that it didn't matter anyway).

Monday was on off night; domestic chores (read: a major grocery shopping
trip). Tuesday I began to assess the bushing situation; re-grouped a bit
and cleaned out the garage work space; made some more room to work and
dug a aquaduct. The recent melting spree had caused a lot of water to
flow in under the garage door. I took a pick and dug a channel in the
ice to allow the water to drain away from the door.

Wednesday, obviously, was a night off. I recieved the following
valentine from my wife (only half joking):

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Finish the Rover
Or I'll kill you

!!

Ok, so thursday it was back outside to start working on the bushings.
Needless to say, in the two hours I was out there, I made little
progress. I began by seeing how far a hack saw and a drift would get
me on the front frame bushings: nowhere. It wasn't much of a surprise,
really, but I was hoping that it might work...

The rest of the night I began putting together a list of new parts I
wanted so I could get a quote from england. Then I had a lot of trouble
with my fax modem, and spent another two hours just trying to get that
to work.

Friday, I did some digging and found a good set of instructions on
bushing removal written a few months ago by Mike Fredette in Oregon
in which he uses an air chisel to drive them in/out. Friday night was
spent loading up my father-in-laws compressor and purchasing an air
chisel. Not to rewrite Mikes technique, but the basic idea it that you
take the 1/2" spike bit and slip a 1/2" drive socket over it and use
that as the drift. (If anyone wants the details, let me know.)

Saturday was the day I actually began attacking the bushings in the
front springs - I have a different pair that I bought from Ray when
I bought the frame. I didn't take me long to see that they were not
going to come out. So, I changed to one of the chisel bits, and drove
a slice down the bushing where there is a gap between the bushing
and spring. This did the trick. In about an hour and a half, I had
all four spring bushings replaced.

Then it was on to the frame bushings. I also had to slice those.
These were tougher, though, and it took about 45 minutes each to get
them out. I was intregued to discover that the bushings in the frame
were two pieces. I learned why in a minute.

I spent the next three hours cursing and trying to get the new ones
in. I don't know if its cheap after market parts or just physics, but
the new ones would not go all the way back in. The farthest I was
able to get one in was 3/4 its length. I tried to let sit for a while
thinking maybe heat was culprit - no luck. No amount of liquid lube
made any difference, either.

During the night, I had my last ditch idea. I had been filing the
casing down, and sanding it smooth, etc, to get it to go in. If I
couldn't get that to work, I was going to cut the bushing in two. Thats
what I ended up doing, and even that wasn't easy. I broke two metal
cutting saber saw blades in about 2 minutes - once they hit rubber.
So I had to cut it by hand with a hack saw. The smell of burning
rubber was the worst part.

After I did that, I was finally, with a little more filing, able to get
the two halves in properly.

Seems the rover engineers with the two piece bushings were not so stupid.
Can you get these anywhere? Trust me, if you're going to do this, try
to get the two piece units.

So I began to work on the second, but in cutting the first I had let
my compressor cool down, and when it kicked on again, it resulted in the
15 amp breaker to the garage popping, plunging me into the dark.

Sigh. My neighbor wasn't home to reset it for me (remeber, I'm out in
my neighbors garage for this...).

So that where the score stands. God my arms hurt...

Tim
 ---
tim harincar
harincar@mooregs.com
'66 IIa 88 SW

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:47:09 -0800
From: uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca (Clinton D. Coates)
Subject: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ

I was just concerned as it was mentioned in the FAQ that one was
supposed to engage the hubs 10km out of 50 to prevent premature
wear 

Freewheeling hubs can cause problems.  Unless the freewheeling
          hubs are engaged at least 10 miles for every 50 driven, rapid
          wear can occur in the steering swivels.  

What gives?  I too thought that I was saving my front end bu
disengaging the hubs.

Puzzled in Podunk

--
 __x___x_  /    Clinton D. Coates  uf974@freenet.victoria.bc.ca    
|__|__|__\/__   
|     |   |_ |  *Emerson* 61 lwb pickup.....mostly runs
  (_)"""""(_)"  *If it doesn't leak, its not a Land Rover*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:57:28 -0800
From: jjbpears@ix.netcom.com (Jeremy Bartlett)
Subject: Zenith carb. fuel line attachement

Well I'm getting close to turning the key on Mathilda but genuine parts 
are starting to get in the way :)

I'm in the process of attaching the genuine LR fuel line to a Zenith 
carburettor and was wondering how others have done this.  The Zenith 
carb. has a copper pipe for the fuel inlet.  Attached to this is the 
geniune LR adaptor that is supposed to work for attaching the fuel line 
to the Zenith (its a rubber hose with braided wire mesh wrap with 
different rubber fitting at either end).  The fuel line from the mech. 
pump attaches to this fitting.  The genuine line is clearly not intended 
for the Zenith since it has a "nut and nipple" type attachment and the 
tube is a pressure fit.  Pressure fitting the nipple into the adaptor 
tube leaves a less than desireable fit (in my view) - particularly as 
this connection is directly over the manifolds.

How have other people made this attachment?  Any similar experiences or 
advice?

It's rather disconcerting that genuine parts don't mesh together in the 
advertised function (I've also noticed this on the radiator shroud and 
cowl and the supporting bracket ARRGH!)

Cheers,

Jeremy

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:08:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ

>>What gives?  I too thought that I was saving my front end bu
disengaging the hubs.

Unless you're towing your series LR a lot, hubs are worse than totally
worthless.  Hubs were designed to compensate for a second rate drive train on
the early CJ's.  Apparently a lot of Rover owners felt insecure without them.

I doubt that many Rover owners have had to stop and jack the front end of a
Jeep CJ5 of the ground to unwind the drive train.  Hubs were, and are,
something that people install without even the faintest idea of why they were
made to begin with.  Ignorance.

The LR drive train was made to shift on the fly into 4WD.  It was
revolutionary when it came out (late 50's-60's).  The best there was.  This
meant that if road conditions changed suddenly, you could shift into full
drive without loosing momentum.  Imagine pulling off the highway and driving
down a maintained ranch road in 2WD, and then running unexpectedly into a
hub-deep arroyo of mud.  The CJ5 would slide into it, bog down, and then the
driver would have to get out into the slime, engage the front hubs (you see,
he couldn't drive down the hard-packed dirt road hub-engaged for fear of
cranking his tranny), and then try to get out of the bog from a standing
start.  Driving your series LR you'd just jam that yellow knob down on the
fly and plow through the muck.  Same goes for snow.

It just goes to show that a lot of people don't even know what there driving.
 THE REASON FOR DRIVING A LR IS NOT JUST TO FEEL LIKE MARLYN PERKINS ON A
TRIP TO THE 7-11.  Oh hell, most of you don't even know who Marlyn Perkins is
anyway.

Just like the wild rhino, we here at Mutual of Omaha.....

Tony

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:10:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Bolt-on aluminum panels?

>>Pop-rivits... aren't those the guys with the nail in the middle??

They are until you "pop" them.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 18:31:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Dixon Kenner <dkenner@emr1.emr.ca>
Subject: dot5.html (fwd)

DOT 5 Brake Fluid

   Mike Burdick (on the SOL list) says:
  
   A while back when this topic came up, I posted excerpts from a Skinned
   Knuckles article on silicone brake fluid. They made the best attempt
   I've seen so far to actually address this issue with hard data instead
   of anecdotes. The data they used came from military tests in jungle
   conditions and tests from the original producer of DOT5 fluid (DuPont?
   I can't remember...). Even so, they were not able to come up with many
   conclusions about DOT5 fluid. In a nutshell, the conclusions were:
  
    1. DOT5 does not absorb water and may be useful where water
       absorption is a problem.
      
    2. DOT5 does NOT mix with DOT3 or DOT4. They also maintain that all
       reported problems with DOT5 are probably due to some degree of
       mixing with other fluid types. They said the proper way to convert
       to DOT5 is to totally rebuild the hydraulic system.
      
    3. Reports of DOT5 causing premature failure of rubber brake parts
       were more common with early DOT5 formulations. This is thought to
       be due to improper addition of swelling agents and has been fixed
       in recent formulations.
      
    4. DOT5 is compatible with all rubber formulations.
      
    5. DOT5 doesn't eat paint.
      
   They also made some general recommendations based on this data and
   personal experiences. These, along with recommendataions of list
   members included:
  
    1. If it works for you, use it. You won't hurt anything if you do the
       conversion correctly. (See, #2 above)
      
    2. Careful bleeding is required to get all of the air out of the
       system. Small bubbles can form in the fluid that will form large
       bubbles over time. It may be necessary to do a series of bleeds.
      
    3. DOT5 is probably not the thing to use in your race car although it
       is rated to stand up to the heat generated during racing
       conditions. The reason for this recommendation is the difficult
       bleeding mentioned above.
      
    4. DOT5 is a good choice for the weekend driver/show car. It doesn't
       absorb water and it doesn't eat paint. One caveat is that because
       it doesn't absorb water, water that gets in the system will tend
       to collect at low points. In this scenario, it would actually be
       promoting corrosion! Annual flushing might be a good idea.
      
     _________________________________________________________________
                                     
  
    Copyright =A9 1989-1995 Team.Net
    The editor of this page is Bob Haskell, ierh2@agt.gmeds.com
    [LINK] [SOL Home Page] [SOL Technical Info Index]

------------------------------

From: SACME@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 20:00:30 -0500
Subject:  silicone brake fluid

Concerning the problem of water in brake fluid, I have replaced my share of
wheel cylinders over the years.  Often it is the bleed screw that breaks off,
then you take the cylinder apart and find corrosion, and you all know the
rest.

My questions are (1) does the hygroscopic property of the brake fluid (assume
Castrol LMT for the moment) mean that the moisture migrates up the brake
pipe, and eventually pollutes the entire fluid supply?  Following from that,
IF the moisture tends to remain concentrated in the wheel cylinder or travels
slowly at best, (2) could one not make brake fluid maintenance as routine and
regular a process (albeit a bit of pain) as other fluid checks.  It would
seem to me that a way to prevent bleed screw freeze-ups would be to exercise
them on a regular basis, which exercise would include pumping some fluid
through and out of the wheel cylinders and, hopefully, carrying the water
away with it.  It seems to me that we tend to leave the brakes alone until
something goes wrong.  Is there any merit to this?  Could it work?  What am I
missing?

Doug Scott
2 ea. 72 SIII SWB, and charter member of the BB.

------------------------------

From: SACME@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 20:00:27 -0500
Subject: Electrolysis, Alum

In the 2/18/96 lro.digest,  MHKINGER@aol.com said:

>Subject: Electrolysis, Alum
>Does anyone know of a chemical which can be put on aluminum after it has
been
>wire brushed and cleaned that will stop the corrosion process?
>I look forward to any advise I can get on this subject.

Mike, 
It is important first to distinguish between electrolysis (also called
galvanic corrosion) and the formation of oxides (rust).  The former will
occur when two dissimilar metals are in physical contact, in the presence of
moisture, in effect forming a battery and causing an electrical transfer of
ions from the "less noble" metal to the "more noble". (I think I have that
right - any chemists out there, feel free to jump in)  This is what happens
when steel in your LR is allowed to be in direct contact with the Birmabright
aluminum alloy of the skins, and is one of the reasons Solihull uses various
compounds to separate the two metals (monkey dung, etc.)  If your concern is
with the LR Birmabright, and if Solihull has continued to use an aluminum
alloy with the same characteristics in their later models (which I do not
know), then the Series Workshop manual would apply.  It says that Birmabright
will form its own protective oxide coating and self-prevent further
corrosion.  Remember, this is referring to exposure to air, atmospheric
moisture, etc., and not a dissimilar metal contact.  Much bare Birmabright is
showing on my 72 SIII, and even with the salted roads and frequent exposure
to the ocean beaches here in Maine, the aluminum looks just like our kitchen
cookware.  Where the rear seatbelt steel reinforcements were allowed to
contact the Birmabright was a different story - now fixed.  

Hope this helps.  Also hope I am right.  Again, any chemists out there please
jump in and correct any errors I may have made.  Thanks. 

Doug Scott
      

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:26:58 -0500
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Cupholders

Michael Kirk wrote:
>...or wedged in the center console.  Have not fouund a cheap cupholder
>that works yet....

Bar Bouys.  Designed for boats with a little plastic piece you screw into 
place and a gimbaled drink holder that dovetails into it.  These things
work in any position.  My brother went through a 720 degree roll and didn't 
spill a drop....  Cheers
      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |       Rover Owners' Association of Virginia         |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:27:24 -0500
From: rover@pinn.net (Alexander P. Grice)
Subject: Silicone brake fluid

I thought we beat silicone to death about one or two years ago...anyway, 
I've been using it for over two years, and it is the best stuff there is.  
The only drawback is the initial cost - $7-8 a pint vs around $3.50 for
LMA.  The problem with the glycol (glycerine), vegetable-based LMA is that 
it is very hygroscopic.  Silicone is not.  

Supposedly, the rapid pulsations inherent in the ABS system crrate 
microscopic bubbles in silicone, and for that reason, it is not 
reccommended for ABS systems.  That appears to be the only drawback, 
though...other than you need to do a *total* systems overhaul when you
make the switch.  If interested in the details, contact me directly. 
Cheers
      *----"Jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary"----*
      |               A. P. (Sandy) Grice                   |
      |       Rover Owners' Association of Virginia         |
      |    1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
      |  E-mail: rover@pinn.net  Phone: 804-622-7054 (Day)  |
      |    804-423-4898 (Evenings)    FAX: 804-622-7056     |
      *-----------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

From: Wdcockey@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:47:39 -0500

ywhere.  Almost the entire truck is put together with pop rivets.
> If you can't unscrew it or unbolt it, it's a pop rivet! 

All the Series I've seen have some pop-rivets but lots of spot welds and a
fair number of regular round head rivets. The rear tub is mostly spot welded
together.  I looks to me like LR used pop rivets in blind situations or where
the spot welder arms wouldn't fit. Spot welds can be disassembled by
drilling; a special drill cuts the rivet from the top panel with out drilling
through the second panel. Reassembly is possible by plug welding. I know one
welder who can plug weld so that it looks like a spot weld.

David Cockey

------------------------------

From: Wdcockey@aol.com
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:54:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Brake fluid and water/Silicone Fluid

I remeber a letter in "British Car" magazine a few years ago which claimed
that silicone fluid caused bad things to happen to switch contacts. In
particular silicon fluid caused the stop light switch on an MGA or similar to
die after a year. The contacts in the swithc are in the brake fluid. Anybody
have any experience?

David Cockey

------------------------------

From: Wdcockey@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 00:10:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ

Tony writes:

>The CJ5 would slide into it, bog down, and then the
>driver would have to get out into the slime, engage the front hubs (you see,
>he couldn't drive down the hard-packed dirt road hub-engaged for fear of
>cranking his tranny)

Actually, the Jeep doesn't need hubs anymore than a LR (assuming the Jeep
driver knows to shift into 2wd on hard surfaces). And the Jeep driver can
shift into 4wd on the fly just like a LR driver assuming both either don't
have hubs or have the hubs locked. 
Jeep CJs (other than some with full time 4wd) have a transfer case which is
identical to the LR Series case in function. The controls are arranged
differently though. Let's be careful when making comparisons.

David Cockey

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:09:04 -0800
From: Roger Sinasohn <sinasohn@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Land Rover Clothes, Toys, Watches, etc.

> dealer only carries a handful of stuff.  Burago makes a large model of 
> the terrible Explorer, does anyone know if they have one for any Land 
> Rover?  I am in search for Camel Trophy gear, and models.

Burago Does make a LR model, but not a disco.  Britains makes a Disco, 
and RN, BP, and AB all carry them, I think. 

Also, check out Lloyd Allison's listing of LR miniatures on the WWW.  
It's at:

http://www.cs.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/Toys/index.html

Enjoy!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uncle Roger                       "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn@crl.com                             that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California                  http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:55:56 -0800
From: "John Y. Liu" <johnliu@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ

At 01:47 PM 2/18/96 -0800, you wrote:

>Freewheeling hubs can cause problems.  Unless the freewheeling
>          hubs are engaged at least 10 miles for every 50 driven, rapid
>          wear can occur in the steering swivels.  

Why is this?  I have read it too, but the lower swivel ball bearing is
permanently lubricated by the oil in the swivel ball, and the upper pin
rides in a bushing set in a hole that does not appear to have an opening to
the bottom, so oil would have to splash up and between the swivel ball and
the swivel ball housing to even get to the area of the upper swivel pin.  Do
folks think that is really a major factor?

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ 
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:51:21 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <199602182307.PAA24440@playground.sun.com>you wrote:
  
	I've been watching this exchange here for awhile and I must
dive in...

Tony wrote:
------bein quote------
  Unless you're towing your series LR a lot, hubs are worse than totally
  worthless.  Hubs were designed to compensate for a second rate drive train on
  the early CJ's.  Apparently a lot of Rover owners felt insecure without them.
  
  Hubs were, and are, something that people install without even the faintest 
  idea of why they were made to begin with.  Ignorance.
-----end quote--------

	I didn't have a choice.  My SIII came with Warn hubs installed.
However, I see no reason to take them off.  The Land Rover was designed
to drive over dirt roads at speeds upto 45 mph.  It was not designed for
highway driving at 65mph (which many of us do).  If you drive around
with the hubs locked (or without hubs), you are needlessly turning a lot
of metal (axles, diff and propshaft).   I notice a 1 to 2 mpg drop in
highway fuel economy when I leave the hubs locked.  I also don't like 
needlessly putting wear and tear on machinery.   There is absolutely
no reason to waste energy turing a propshaft, diff and axles when you
don't need to.  That's why I keep the hubs disengaged.

	So the purpose of hubs on a LR isn't to protect a weak drivetrain.
It is to minimize wear and tear.  Some of us plan on having our Rovers for
the next 20+ years and 300,000+ miles.  I'd rather minimize whatever
wear that I can.
 
Tony also wrote:
> The LR drive train was made to shift on the fly into 4WD.  It was
> revolutionary when it came out (late 50's-60's).  The best there was.  This
> meant that if road conditions changed suddenly, you could shift into full
> drive without loosing momentum.  

	Which is why whenever I am not on pavement, I lock the hubs.  When
on pavement the chances of ever needing 4WD are <1% (if it's snowing the
hubs are locked :).  Off road I'm not going to be travelling above 50mph
and I'm usually in 4WD just because.  Yes, Land Rover has a great design
for shifing into 4WD on the fly, but hubs allow me to choose when and how
much wear I put on my front end.  And I'm one of the few idiots for which
my LR is my only source of transport.  It gets a lot of highway miles.  (It's
driven from one coast to the other of the United States 7 times)  I've
noticed that when driving with the hubs engaged, I have my top speed reduced
by at least 5mph and my speed on hills is decreased even more.

	If all you do is drive your Rover on weekends and around town, you
problably won't notice any decrease in power or fuel mileage.  You also are
probably not putting enough miles on the Rover to need to worry about wear
and tear on the front diff.  However, if someone regularly drives a lot of
highway miles, I'd recommend a set of Warn hubs.

	YMMV

Ben
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:33:05 +0000
From: David Olley at New Concept <newconcept@tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Series Brake Shoes

When I last fitted new brake shoes, I found that the retaining brackets 
could not be fitted. These are the brackets which are attached by two 
set screws into the bottom of the shoes, and hold them against the pivot 
pin.
The reason they could not be fitted was that the holes in the shoes were 
not tapped to receive the screws. All the supplier's stock was identical 
in this respect.
The shoes were purchased from a reliable source (Friction Linings).
It does not appear, though, that these brackets do very much. Can 
anybody explain exactly what their function is. The shoes cannot fall 
off the pin because the spring tension keeps them in place. Perhaps they 
are there as an anti-squeal measure?

-- 
David Olley
.....................................................................................
Winchester, England
Tel: +44(0)1962-840769      Fax : +44(0)1962-867367
    Home Page:  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~newconcept
.....................................................................................

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:33:02 +0000
From: David Olley at New Concept <newconcept@tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ

John Y. Liu wrote:

> Why is this?  I have read it too, but the lower swivel ball bearing is
> permanently lubricated by the oil in the swivel ball ........

You are right about the swivels, and these are not the problem. The 
halft shaft bearing and the universal joints are not fully immersed in 
oil when stationary. If left in this condition for an extended period, 
they will tend to dry out. When they are eventually selected - usually 
under arduous off-road conditions, they are not adequately lubricated.

Locking the hubs regularly ensures that oil is splashed onto these 
components to maintain a lubricated state.

I think that free wheel hubs are a very good idea on old Series 
vehicles. Often the splines on the front prop shaft are getting worn, 
and the less the shaft is used, the longer it will last. Any wear will 
be translated into vibration, which will then lead to problems with the 
axle input bearing and/or the transfer box bearing. Mine has just given 
up the ghost as a result of a lot of high speed miles with the hubs 
engaged. I had no option because the Superwinch hubs had failed (they do 
not appear to have been designed to cater for being submerged in water, 
and the outer plain bearings had failed) and no longer work unlocked 
without generating a great deal of noise.

-- 
David Olley
.....................................................................................
Winchester, England
Tel: +44(0)1962-840769      Fax : +44(0)1962-867367
    Home Page:  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~newconcept
.....................................................................................

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:33:00 +0000
From: David Olley at New Concept <newconcept@tcp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: silicone brake fluid

SACME@aol.com wrote:
> does the hygroscopic property of the brake fluid (assume
> Castrol LMT for the moment) mean that the moisture migrates up the brake
> pipe, and eventually pollutes the entire fluid supply?

The scientists on this list will be able to explain, but, from recent comments it 
appears that water is absorbed through the rubber pipes (by osmosis?). It then, 
presumably is absorbed into the fluid to form an emulsion. Over time this emulsion 
will mix throughout the system and the whole lot is contaminated. Regular fluid 
changes (which are less costly than an engine oil change) cures that, and have, as you 
say, the added benefit of ensuring that bleed screws remain serviceable. A renewal of 
bleed screws at intervals is even better - they cost so little - as the original 
plating will help prevent corrosion.

-- 
David Olley
.....................................................................................Winchester, England
Tel: +44(0)1962-840769      Fax : +44(0)1962-867367
    Home Page:  http://www.tcp.co.uk/~newconcept
.....................................................................................

------------------------------

From: PETER ESTIBEIRO - CGR <PETERE@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk>
Date:          Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:55:51 +0000
Subject:       series I plug leads

I use off the shelf leads on my 1956 86" but also have a modern coil, 
condenser and plugs fitted so the whole ignition system is 
compatible.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:04:06 +0000
From: Arron <asd1@ukc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Mazda conversion

Question I thought that these engines had no great amount of 
engine braking ( hence Norton motorcycles having such hugh disk brakes on 
the front of their bikes.) if this is so then its a pretty NASH engine 
for landies.

	arron

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:28:14 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Re: Locking hubs in the LRO FAQ

>Unless you're towing your series LR a lot, hubs are worse than totally
>worthless.
I disagree.I have an acquaintance who regularly tows a horsebox over
long distances,while "crewing" for his wife,who is into endurance riding.
He once tried this caper with his FWH engaged,and his fuel consumption
was so horrendous,he swore never to do it again.

>I doubt that many Rover owners have had to stop and jack the front end of a
>Jeep CJ5 of the ground to unwind the drive train.  Hubs were, and are,
>something that people install without even the faintest idea of why they were
>made to begin with.  Ignorance.
Hmmm.You would if you were daft enough to drive a series vehicle in 4WD
on tarmac.Either that,or your tyres wouldnt last too long.
In my experience,Land Rover owners are anything *but* ignorant.What they
dont know,they pretty soon make sure they find out.

>The LR drive train was made to shift on the fly into 4WD.  It was
>revolutionary when it came out (late 50's-60's).
The series drive train basically came out in the late *forties*,and
remained substantially unchanged throughout series production.
Like most engineering,this is a compromise.It just depends where you
want the compromise to lie.Do you want the "shift on the fly" facility,
or do you prefer the fuel economy/extra speed etc? I would suggest its
a combination of personal choice,combined with the use to which the
individual owner puts his/her vehicle.In certain situations the FWH would
stay permanently locked,in which case why fit them in the first place?
Fine.But to then say they are rubbish insults the intelligence of those
drivers who feel they would benefit from a set.
Also,FYI,you could actually get the factory to fit them to your brand
new,shiny series vehicle,although apparently Land Rover were unconvinced
of the benefits accrued.But....they didnt dismiss them as useless.
Just my views..and yes,I *will* fit a set.
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:47:45 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Re: Grafton's graftin...

>mike, tom, i missed it -- what is "the troppo roof flap in door idea"
>mentioned.
>ray harder (61-siia (lulu))

Oh,right.Its a "keep the drivers feet unsmelly" mod.The roof vent from
a Safari with the tropical roof,is removed from said vehicle.and fitted
into the front door(either,or both sides),hinges facing rearwards,so when
open,the thing scoops air in.Looks neat(I've seen Andy's),and works well,
apparently.The roof vent from a minivan would work as well.I suppose you
could get all technical,and fit a mesh screen on the inside to discourage
local wildlife from hitching a lift.
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
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