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The Land Rover Owner Daily Digest

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Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 4:33:05 -30000
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	  Contents:
  1 70472.1130@compuserve.com Sat Dec 16 10:02   43/2589  Plushmobiles
  2 LAW142@aol.com     Sat Dec 16 10:58   23/1179  SNORKLE FOR MY SERIES IIA
  3 johnliu@earthlink.net Sat Dec 16 11:21   22/1324  Rangies With US V-8?
  4 ecrover@midcoast.com Sat Dec 16 11:30   27/1353  VIN/Chassis numbers
  5 johnliu@earthlink.net Sat Dec 16 11:39   47/2326  Re: Plushmobiles
  6 jcwhite3@well.com  Sat Dec 16 12:31   44/1939  Re: Disco and Lucas
  7 lopezba@atnet.at   Sat Dec 16 14:27   73/4096  Hardtop insulation
  8 KKelly6788@aol.com Sat Dec 16 15:07   28/1463  Re: Where are the diesels
  9 ASFCO@aol.com      Sat Dec 16 15:49   18/1117  Vehicle ID Number system
 10 ericz@cloud9.net   Sat Dec 16 16:12   42/2291  Yuppies and other sources
 11 IIIDmentia@gnn.com Sat Dec 16 18:10   24/1378  Trailers
 12 IIIDmentia@gnn.com Sat Dec 16 18:23   33/1668  To those who are about to
 13 jcwhite3@well.com  Sat Dec 16 19:36   50/2251  RE: Popular Science
 14 jcwhite3@well.com  Sat Dec 16 19:36   38/1842  RE: wading of plushmobile
 15 jcwhite3@well.com  Sat Dec 16 19:35  106/4472  Re: Popular Science
 16 rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Sat Dec 16 19:50   33/1639  Nice lightweight for sale
 17 rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca Sat Dec 16 19:52   44/1871  Land Rover Toy News
 18 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil Sat Dec 16 20:12   41/2603  Re: Where are the diesels
 19 burns@cisco.com    Sat Dec 16 20:21   69/4037  Disco's
 20 cs@crl.com         Sat Dec 16 21:00   38/1999  Re: Hardtop Insulation

------------------------------

Date: 16 Dec 95 09:58:57 EST
From: Mark Ritter <70472.1130@compuserve.com>
Subject: Plushmobiles

In response to Teri Anne Wakemans article I would like to defend my Disco as an
extremely capable off-roader that gets one to the trail quickly and in comfort.
I resent the lable of yuppie-mobile. In fact some of the yuppies in my club are
the most ardent series owners. Before she lambasts the Camel Trophy Disco's I
suggest she get the facts. Yes they are diesels and that is one reason why they
have the incredible wading abilities ( no electronics) As for the support they
get on the event a competitor in the 94 event, Mac Barber, told me that aside
from changing tires and cleaning fuel filters (very important on a diesel) the
vehicle just kept going. He liked it so much that when he got back he bought one
for himself. Anyone wishing to call Mac a yuppie had better have good dental
insurance. I hardly think Ms. Wakemans series Rover could do a better job
crossing Borneo that a Disco.
Don't get me wrong I love the look and feel of the series vehicles. When
finances and storage space allow I plan on gettign one myself. I would love to
have a coil-sprung, galvanized chassis 88 with a smuggled in Tdi or Isuzu 2.8
complete with snorkle so I could show some of the Georgia rednecks that 10 litre
V8's and 44" tires are not the only solution to North GA clay and granite.
Obvioulsy I would take this vehicle some places the Disco does not go. Not
because I don't think it would make it but becuase I have to drive it to work
the next day. The disco has already surprised many of the rural residents of the
GA hills with its ablility-

Anyway Comments like yuppie and plushmobile are the sort of derision we don't
need on the list. A Land Rover is a Land Rover no matter what it cost or when it
was built.

							Mark Ritter
							94 Disco
							Yes, I do wave!

------------------------------

From: LAW142@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 10:57:18 -0500
Subject: SNORKLE FOR MY SERIES IIA WITH 3.5LV8

I'm looking for a way to purchase a snorkle for LR SIIA with a 3.5V8 without
having to pay a fortune.   I'm also looking for a US based company that can
build/make a roll cage for my SIIA SW with safari roof that will still allow
me to put on a roof rack with rear  ladder.
  Can any one help me?

Karl Young II
69 Land Rover Series IIA  109
Station Wagon w/Safari Roof, RHD
Austin, Texas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 08:13:52 -0800
From: "John Y. Liu" <johnliu@earthlink.net>
Subject: Rangies With US V-8?

In LRO Magazine I occasionally see blurbs about Rangies 
with Chevrolet 350 V-8 conversions, and I've heard of a 
Ford V-8 conversion too.  Does anyone know anyone about 
these -- who makes the kits, whether they retain the RR 
transmission, etc.?  Just curious.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:30:13 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (Mike Smith)
Subject: VIN/Chassis numbers

Dear all,
        Another one for you. Just got some photos of a client's Rover we
are going to do some work on. The weird thing, maybe not weird, but
something I haven't seen is, the tag with the numbers on it is all in
French. Is this what the tags looked like when sent to a French market? The
Chassis number checks out to be LHD, export 109, as does the Rover, but I
have not seen a French tag before.
Any thoughts?

Mike Smith, ECR

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 08:31:41 -0800
From: "John Y. Liu" <johnliu@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Plushmobiles

At 09:58 AM 12/16/95 EST, you wrote:
>extremely capable off-roader that gets one to the trail quickly and in comfort.

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>the most ardent series owners. Before she lambasts the Camel Trophy Disco's I
>suggest she get the facts.

<discussion of Disco and Series snipped>

>Anyway Comments like yuppie and plushmobile are the sort of derision we don't
>need on the list. A Land Rover is a Land Rover no matter what it cost or
when it
>was built.

Look, everyone, let's understand that the comments  about "plushmobile" and
the like are 
meant to be taken in jest.  Don't take them seriously and get offended.
Think of them
as being accompanied by a dig in the ribs and a hearty chortle.

Clearly people can like both Series vehicles and Rangies/Discos --  indeed,
many on this
list own both (and I aspire to.)  But the Series drivers can poke fun at the
yuppie Disco
drivers wailing over espresso spills and noisy carphones, and the Disco
owners can laugh 
at the Series owners wearing earplugs, freezing in the winter, and broiling
in the summer.
(There, now I've offended everyone.)  It's all in fun, folks.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 09:31:41 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Disco and Lucas

Actually the '95s have a several second delay as well.  Mine hasn't had the
buzzing that Bob talks about though.  Bob's radio may just be getting a
broadcast from Radio Free Lucas.

Cheers!
John

At 08:08 15.12.95 -0500, Gerald wrote:
>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>I wonder if this is related to the several second delay in 96 Disco 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 19 lines)]
>Gerald
>g@ix.netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:27:52 +0100
From: lopezba@atnet.at
Subject: Hardtop insulation

David Bobeck wrote:
>>Now that autumn has given way to winter, mymind once again turns to the 
>>tricky problem of dodging the drips of condensation emenating from the 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 38 lines)]
>handy with a needle and thread.
>Cheers
>Dave "No Roof Rash" Bobeck
Actually you can still get the product from John Craddock in the UK, 
although I do not have their latest ad here at the moment.  I seem to 
remember some name like PG Absorbent Headliner, so it may not be the 
original LR product but something made by Procter & Gamble.  As far as I 
know these headliners are on back order though, and you may have to wait 
until the beginning of April. They also advertise the Absorbent Headliner 
Valve Set which consists of four small valves for the four corners of the 
roof.  These will allow the moisture that is channeled to them by special 
ducts in the headliner to trickle down on the outside of the LR without 
letting water in.  Unfortunately they are not marked really well and 
installation is by trial and error unless you have very keen eyesight, since 
the only difference between the inside and the outside is the tiny letters 
FO for the inside and OL for the outside.  I have not been able to find out 
what the letters stand for.  Their fax number is (UK) 1543 505 408.
For a drier drive
Peter Hirsch
SI 107in S/W

------------------------------

From: KKelly6788@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:06:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Where are the diesels?

I ask whether anyone knows why we can't get them here in the US? 

I had a chance to drive the Tdi last weekend (with water coming over the hood
at times) during the Camel Trophy trials.  I asked a couple of the guys from
LRNA if they planned to bring the Tdi to the US.  They all said that there
was no plans as of now to import the Tdi.

If people are interested in the Tdi they might think about writing a letter
to LRNA. After BMW decided not to import the new E36 M3 they received quite a
few letters.  Executives from BMWNA have publicly announced that it was the
letters received from owners and potential owners that got them to change
their mind.

Kevin Kelly

------------------------------

From: ASFCO@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 15:49:06 -0500
Subject: Vehicle ID Number system

does anybody know the code for 1964 vehicle ID Numbers ??
                                        the number I have has  a total of 9
digits  and is configured as such  ...                         2 numbers ,
one letter,  6 numbers. Anybody have a clue??
                                        thanks      Steve Bradke
                      

------------------------------

From: ericz@cloud9.net
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:11:32 -0800
Subject: Yuppies and other sources of unrest.

Please, don't go crazy about the joking that goes around this list regarding 
Series Rovers versus the newer models.  Most everything said here is in jest, or 
at very least in envy.

What really counts is whether or not you appreciate the vehicle for what it is: 
the worlds toughest and most versatile off-road vehicle.  Of course, there is an 
abundance of gadgetry on the newer vehicles (disco, RR, even Defender) but look 
at the market.  We Series owners are a "lunatic fringe" (and quite content in 
being so) and lunatic fringes don't usually have the spending power of other 
groups.  As a result, the new models have the conveniences and niceties that 
such a market requires.  This is not to say that people who buy newer rovers are 
in someway inferior.  For the most part, people buying the newer rovers are just 
different people from series owners.

All rover owners have the responsibility to make each other feel welcome based 
on the person behind the wheel, not the vehicle they're sitting in. There is a 
series owner in every disco owner and vice-versa.

OK, enough misc. ramblings...its just that this whole series/non-series thing 
has the potential to get out of hand and create even more divisions within the 
rover community.

Eric  
(a confirmed series owner who still waves to discos and RRs in hope)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:12:42
From: IIIDmentia@gnn.com (WILLIAM ADAMS)
Subject: Trailers

I still can't get over the guy who put 15 sheets of 3/4 particle board on th 
e rack. One good right hander and...

I'd like to hear about trailing loads behind series Rovies. I'm considering a 
utility trailer for hauling and junkyard runs. Any advice and/or horror story 
would be appreciated.
Also wonder about the apparently PTO-driven trailer pictured in the 
literature. Anybody have one of these? what a hoot!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:25:24
From: IIIDmentia@gnn.com (WILLIAM ADAMS)
Subject: To those who are about to die,we salute you..

Parts that is. Thanks to all for their advice during the recent transmission 
crisis. (RN, expect a call from my mechanic!) Much to our chagrin, the 
gearbox expired. It is now on the table experiencing open heart surgery 
($$$$) On the bright side, it will be ready for another 30 years of faithful 
service. 
"All my troubles are Rover"

Bill Adams
3Dmentia Video Animation
4016 Spruell Drive
Kensington,MD 20895
301-949-9475

1966 S2a 109" SW Diesel "Keeping it stock in the face of common sense"

" One of these days I'm going to have this thing melted down and hammered into a coffin,
because when they lay me out it will be THIS son of a bitch that put me in it."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:36:38 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: RE: Popular Science

And you know what else, Bob?  They tell me the room service on the Camel Trophy
is terrible.  The Connaught Hotel has nothing to worry about.

Sniff.
John

At 10:36 15.12.95 -0800, Robert Watson (CNA) wrote:
>To change subscription write to: Majordomo@Land-Rover.Team.Net
>>From: 	John C. White, III[SMTP:jcwhite3@well.com]
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 26 lines)]
>    \_/        \_/                            N7UMU
>with espresso machine and tongue-in-cheek.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:36:46 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: RE: wading of plushmobiles

At 21:59 15.12.95 -0600, Soren Vels Christensen wrote:

>I'm not really defending (!(?)) the disco. I just wonder why the plush
>pilots worry so much about buzzing radios, squeeking back doors and all
>that.

These are the most minor of complaints, true, but Land Rover claims to build 
top quality vehicles in every regard.  The off-road capabilities of 
Discoveries are only part of the equation.  Land Rover has also seen fit to 
appoint NAS Discos with power steering, power anti-lock brakes, air 
conditioning, stereos with cassette players (optionally also CD players), 
leather upholstery, electric sunroofs (optionally), and carpeting.  If Land 
Rover can't get these items right, then it shouldn't be in the plush 
business.  

As the saying goes, "A job worth doing is worth doing well."

Cheers!
John

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 16:36:28 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Popular Science

Camel Trophy Discoveries are diesel so they aren't as electronically fragile 
as the V8i in NAS Discos, but I would venture to guess that an added feature 
of the diesel is that it has almost twice the gas mileage of the V8i.  
That's got to be especially important on a 1,000 mile trek where the nearest 
gas station is who knows where.

Let's talk about plushness and its darker yuppie submessage, shall we?  A 
Discovery can't clear the same rocks that a Series can.  There are things I 
can do when I'm wearing a t-shirt and jeans ("real" peoples clothes) that I 
can't do when I'm wearing a suit (yuppie garb) because suits are more 
confining.  Nevertheless it's still my god-like physique in both.  Many LROs 
have expounded on the off-road capabilities of the Discovery.  It is a Land 
Rover from its logo to Lucas electricals.

Oh yes, and no one forced me to buy a Discovery.  I bought one of my own 
free will.  Does that make me a yuppie?  While I hate all that the label 
implies (selfishness. Conspicuous, graceless consumption.  Snobbery), I will 
leave it to those who know me to decide whether or not the label fits.

Cheers!
John
'95 Discovery

At 10:19 15.12.95 -0800, TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:
>In message <199512151601.LAA13919@butler.uk.stratus.com> "John C. White, III" 
>writes:
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
>John, I suspect the only reason the Camel trophy runs are done by Discos was 
>because Rover insisted that they use them.  Discos are cheaper for them to
build
>& I understand that their margins are higher on Discos.  They probably started 
>supplying Discos for this event purely to show the potential customers that 
>plushmobiles can go offroad too.  With the kind of support the Camel Trophy
cars
>get, it could probably be run by a Ford Tarus.  Mind you it may be a year or 
>more slower making it to the finish than the Discos.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 18 lines)]
>I have indeed seen proof of Discos doing wonderous things off road but they 
>still have minimal ground clearence for rocky mountainous terrain.  Mind
you I'm
>not making a value judgment on plushmobiles, except for the new Range Rover
that
>doesn't look like it would go half the places the classic will without  losing 
>the ground effects baffeling and that low side step.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 31 lines)]
>don't own yuppi cars, plushmobiles or rice burners by personal choice.
>TeriAnn
>twakeman@apple.com

------------------------------

Subject: Nice lightweight for sale
From: rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Robin Craig)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 19:31:04 -0500

I just received my January 96 Land Rover World. in the classifieds at the 
back on page 125 is one of the nicest s3 lightweights in good condition 
for sale that I have seen for a while.

The vehcile is complete with cam nets et al and the guy only wants POUNDS 
UK 2950!! I'll be checking my lottery ticket in the am ....

Robin

--
Robin Craig, rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca
FourFold Symmetry, Ottawa, Ont. |  Ottawa Valley Land Rovers

------------------------------

Subject: Land Rover Toy News
From: rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Robin Craig)
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 19:24:02 -0500

Just when you thought it was safe......

Matchbox Collectibles have come out with a new version of their series 
one fire truck with trailer in the "Works Fire Service" livery.

The new version is diffreent only by the following:-
Decal gone from door,
Wheels now chromed intsead of red

If you ask me it does not look as good as the original but I"ll be buying 
it anyway....

I found another one of the NASA 90 and trailers with the blue wheels 
today, again in a ZEllers store.

If you would like to be included in a toy / model digest email me direct.

Rgds
Robin

--
Robin Craig, rc@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca
FourFold Symmetry, Ottawa, Ont. |  Ottawa Valley Land Rovers

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Where are the diesels? 
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:14:28 -0800
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <199512162007.PAA15069@butler.uk.stratus.com>you wrote:
  
> I ask whether anyone knows why we can't get them here in the US? 
> I had a chance to drive the Tdi last weekend (with water coming over the hood
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> LRNA if they planned to bring the Tdi to the US.  They all said that there
> was no plans as of now to import the Tdi.

	I've heard 2 conflicting rumors about the 300 Tdi.  The first is that
LRNA got it past US DOT/EPA, but doesn't think that there is a market in the
US for diesel engines.  The other is that the engine is designed to meet 
European specs and that so far LRNA has been unable to get the engine through
California Smog tests.  Since, according to rumor, there is a huge EPA fine
to bring a vehicle that cannot pass emmissions for all 50 states, LRNA gave up.
I have yet to find anyone who can give a definite answer.

Ben 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Benjamin Smith------------bens@vislab.navy.mil---------1972 Land Rover SIII 88
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake

"...If I were running such a contest, I would specifically eliminate any entry
 from Ben involving driving the [Land] Rover anywhere.  He'd drive it up the
 Amazon basin for a half can of Jolt and a stale cookie..."  --Kevin Archie

------------------------------

From: Russell Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Disco's
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 95 17:21:47 PST

Had a chance last weekend to brake one of those new yuppie mobiles.
I happen to be out on the left coast when my good friend Raj picked up
his new disco. Green thing with leather seats, cd changer, dual sunroofs,
built in expressio machine ect.. ect.
The first plan was to go to holister hills and see the camel trials.
But it seems that LRNA took over the park. All we could do is sit
outside the gate and form a parade with some other Rover owners.

After giving up on the trails, we headed south to another orv place
Clear creek. We did manage to get the disco temporarly detained on a hill.
I was explaining the benifits of having a shovel and other like tools
as we ascended this steep hill. We got to a ripply section and Raj decided
to slow down. With the loss of momentium we coulds not progress any futher
up the hill. I explained to Raj that we needed to back down the hill. As
there was a 4 foot deep rut on the passenger side I told him I would 
watch my side. Sticking my head out the window I was announcing the
distance in feet between the rut and his new truck. 
We started at three feet from the rut, and proceded to back down the hill
We then were 4 feet, and 5 feet from the rut when Raj slamed on the brakes
and announced that he backed into a tree.
So I got out and looked. The tree was the least of our worries.
It seems that he was following a rut on the drivers side, and right after the
"bush" it got progressively deeper. At we sat, the rear diff was scraping the
ground. I had Raj get out of the car to take a look, and he promply started 
sliding down the hill. (it was almost too steep to walk up)
I tried letting some air out of the tires for better traction, but I still
could not get enought to drive up the hill and take a better cut.
Well out came the jack, jacked up the rear tire. Dragged trees, rocks,small
kids etc.. and filled in the rut. After chipping at the sides of the ruts
with the jack handles, I think Raj realized the benifits of a shovel.
After about 9 cu yards of fill I was able to back the yuppie mobile down
the hill. Raj then explored some of the other trails in the park. A lot of
trails had overhanging bush, and would scrape the Disco. I kept muttering
that this was a Land-Rover polish job, but know one caught the humor....
Needless to say, when we were done there were a number of minor (major)
scratches in the clear coat. Raj was quite upset about this kept muttering
about ruining the truck with less than 500 mile on it. But actually I think
he told his fiance that this was going to be her truck, and was afraid
to face the wrath of the little women. At dinner I explained that if
the Land-Rover polish did not suit him, you could buff out the clear coat and
it would look like new.
He clearly was an unbeliver, but his up comming marriage gave him little choice.Some how Sunday he found some one with a buffer who polished the Disco,
allowing him to visit his fiance safely sunday nite.
Talking to him latter that week, he said he was heading down to holister hills
to do some more offroading. I replied "great, a few more times and you won,t
even have ot bother with the wax and polish jobs...."

Russ Burns
91 R-Rover
94 D-90
One of those damn yuppie types (mistakes can happen to the best of us)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 17:59:21 +0000
From: cs@crl.com (Michael Carradine)
Subject: Re: Hardtop Insulation

 Peter Hirsh <lopezba@atnet.at> writes:

:Actually you can still get the product from John Craddock...  They also
:advertise the Absorbent Headliner Valve Set which consists of four small
:valves for the four corners of the roof.  These will allow the moisture
:that is channeled to them by special ducts in the headliner to trickle
:down on the outside of the LR without letting water in.  Unfortunately
:they are not marked really well... the only difference between the inside
:and the outside is the tiny letters FO for the inside and OL for the
:outside.  I have not been able to find out what the letters stand for.

 Let's see, FO and OL??  FO, OL??  FO-OL?  Could it be FOOL!  :)

 Holiday Cheers,
                          ______
 Michael Carradine        [__[__\==                     Rumpole of the Bay
 510-988-0900             [________]                        Land-Rover 4x4
 cs@crl.com  ___________.._(o)__.(o)_____...o^^^^  '65 IIA 2.235m (was 88)
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Land-Rover 4x4 Connection WWW page at:  http://www.crl.com/~cs/rover.html

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
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 Output: lines 652 [content 473  forwarded 49 (cut  120) whitespace 153]

Subject: Gearbox treatments.
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 9:37:53 GMT

Hi chaps, has anyone ever treated a landie with that slick 50 gearbox treatment
i was thinking of doing both the disco and my series 2a.

should i rush to do it or should i run away from it ? any thoughts gratefully
received.

cheers danny

p.s. have a great xmas everyone.

------------------------------

From: Tom Stevenson <gbfv08@udcf.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Metrinch spanners
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:40:32 +0000 (GMT)

I have a set of Metrinch spanners which work very well. They move the
nut from its flats, not the corners, so they will undo rounded off nuts
easily.

-- 
Tom Stevenson: gbfv08@udcf.gla.ac.uk
University Marine Biological Station, Isle of Cumbrae, Scotland
Tel:(01475) 530581  Fax:(01475) 530601

------------------------------

From: Vel Natarajan <nataraja@cig.mot.com>
Subject: Re: 'Cappings' and rivet etiquette
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 05:57:43 -0600 (CST)

>------------------------------
>Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:35:24
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Vel, Vel, Vel- Rovers are riveted together so that body panel repair can be 
>done easily in the field. My technique for speedy aluminum rivet removal:

Ah.  I don't know what I was thinking.  I forgot that the simplicity
and practicality of the LR also included body panels. :-)

>Obtain a sharp carpenters chisel and keep it sharp as you are working.
>Using a light to medium hammer, drive the chisel between the rivet head and 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 8 lines)]
>For steel, copper and other metals, I recommend drilling or grinding off the 
>tail of the rivet and then carefully driving it out from the inside. 

I don't have much experience w/ rivets, so please bear with me while I
ask some more basic questions...

Did you replace the original round-head rivets with the same?  I've
only used the "pop" rivet tool which has the ones with the hole in the
center.  How are the round head ones different to replace?  I think
the round head ones look much nicer on the cappings and would prefer
the original look of them.

>I don't know about your area but I  take small stuff for galvanizing to a 
>place up in Baltimore, where they usually charge me $10-50 depending on the 
>size. I've had lots of boat parts and anchor chain dipped, which they'll do 
>as a side job.

I thought I'd do that while I'm here in the UK where replacement parts
are cheaper and plentiful.  (I also need to replace the left rear end
panel due to a good sized dent/hole from the PO.)

>Don't paint those things it'll look cheesy. 

I agree.  I'd rather have mine rusty and original than painted and
tacky.  I was being only half serious.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vel Natarajan                            Phone:  +44-1793-566-323
Motorola Inc.                            Fax:    +44-1793-430-987
Email:  nataraja@cig.mot.com             Mobile: +49-171-854-6670
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:18:06 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Re: Handbrake Drums

>.
>On another note I spotted a familiar name (and email address) in the
>LRO international magazine. One of the 'Reader's Tips' on the
>'Drivetrain' page. A handy tip from our very own M.J.Rooth. Fame at
>last Mike!!

I'll come round with the hat later.......<grin>

Merry Christmas All

Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:42:25 EST
From: "Steve Reddock" <steve_reddock@uk.xyratex.com>
Subject: Power, power, power

I want more power.  Let's see, I've got everybody to put in carriage
returns.  What next?
  
Mmmmm.  I know!
  
>From now on can everybody please send their submissions in RED ink.
  
Thank you, Sgt.  A.Nally-Retentive  LRO Submissions Police
  
Steve Reddock                         Product Evaluation, 26/12
Xyratex                  Ext.(01705) 486363 x4450  Int.721-4450
REDDOCK at HVTVM         Internet: Steve_Reddock@UK.XYRATEX.COM

------------------------------

From: hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 08:12:57 EST
Subject: Solid Rivets

I have replaced several original solid rivets on my Series 
II with genuine L-R solid rivets, available (at lest a 
couple of years ago) from Rovers North.  The correct way to 
remove the old ones, as any aviation metalsmith will tell 
you, is to drill them out from the head side.  Drill size 
should match the rivet shank (i.e., same as the hole in the 
sheet metal the rivet goes through).  Before putting drill 
bit to rivet head, centerpunch the head to create an easy 
starting point.  Swivel the drill like a waist gunner in a 
B-17 if necessary to keep the tip of the bit headed down the 
centerline of the rivet as go drill.  In theory, drill only 
far enough to penetrate completely through the head.  If 
you've done it right, the head will pop off and ride up the 
drill bit.  Then use a drift to punch out the remainder.  If 
you insist on chiseling off the head, drill the head as 
described above first, and it'll pop off really easily.

Since Series L-R hole tolerances are not what they are in 
Phantoms or even P-47s, you may need to drill all the way 
through, because the shank expanded to fill an oversize or 
out-of-round hole.  

Reinstalling new solid rivets is not hard if you have the 
feel of using a pneumatic gun.  Try to get one with a 
pressure adjustment.  If you're not used to it, it can get 
away from you quite easily and you could take out an unlucky 
bystander.  They can be hammered by hand, but once you've 
gotten the hang of the air tool, it's too much fun to go 
back to primitive methods.  Might be worth a trip to the 
local general aviation field to talk to an airframe 
mechanic.  

Drilling from the tail side can be messy because rivets 
frequently lose their symmetry about the centerline on that 
end, tending to lean over to one side on a regular basis.  
After all, they were not installed in Solihull by guys who 
were building Vulcan bombers during the weekend.

I've long contemplated separating the galvanized gutter from 
the aluminum sheet roof panel of my 109, as part of the 
perpetual restoration, for regalvanizing.  I assume the 
reattachment will be with aluminum (solid) aircraft rivets 
rather than the original (steel?) hollow-tails.  There are 
so many of them, strength is not a worry, even for 
gutter-mounted expedition racks.

Regards,
Hank "We don't need no stinkin' Cherry-Max" Lapa

------------------------------

From: hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 08:16:24 EST
Subject: Rancho Sale - Std vs HD???

I'm about convinced to run out and get four for my 109.  
Anyone with wisdom regarding standard vs heavy-duty?  A long 
time ago, a voice at RN told me that HD were overkill, 
probably referring to "Genuine."

Thanks in advance,
Hank

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 08:25:14 EST
From: "Bobeck, David R." <dbobeck@ushmm.org>
Subject: Re: Power, power, power

Steve Reddock wants control...

  
>From now on can everybody please send their submissions in RED ink.

REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM REDRUM 

PS. This message has nothing to do with changing brake parts...

Dave"Here's Johnny"Bobeck

------------------------------

From: Stuart Williams <STUARTW@po1.net.cho.ge.com>
Subject: News from the front lines ...
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 08:24:00 EST

Thanks to Rick Grant for an interesting look into Bosnian public 
transportation in his posting from Wed, 20 Dec 1995.  Not bad performance 
for a plushmobile, eh?

> I couldn't get over how that machine never even seemed to think of getting
> stuck.  With only a set of chains on the rear wheels it would happily 
charge
> off the barely cleared track into virgin snow and carve its way around any
> vehicle blocking the way.  Many times the snow was rolling up over the
> bonnet and breaking against the windscreen as we plunged on.

Derogatory bits about armored Defender performance in similar conditions 
deleted ... ;^)

Stuart Williams
'95 Discovery V8i
'85 LandCruiser 

------------------------------

Subject: snow
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 08:51:52 -0500
From: Ron Franklin <oldhaven@biddeford.com>

-- [ From: Ron Franklin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

I have just now come in from plowing 20 inches of snow, which my 65 88 seems
to enjoy as much as I do.  I was thinking that those of you on the East
coast who have sore backs from shoveling are missing a bet by not fitting a
plow.  You too can look forward to snowstorms... though I've yet to see a RR
or Disco pushing snow.  Oh yeah, by the way, I just happen to have a Fisher
plow rig to spare..ahem..  Anyhow, you'll have to excuse me as I'm going out
to fire up the sauna.  These Maine winters are hell!  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 06:00:11 -0800
From: "John C. White, III" <jcwhite3@well.com>
Subject: Re: Disco antenna replacement

At 15:07 20.12.95 EST, Tom Des Jardins wrote:

>(Of course since it's a disco and I have the 6
>disc yuppie changer...

You mean yuppies aren't at least housebroken?  Figures.

Cheers!
John
'95 Discovery

------------------------------

From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <Alan_Richer/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 21 Dec 95  8:21:29 EST
Subject: Trans leaks like a sieve - but from where?

THis is beginning to frustrate me.

The transmission on my 109 leaks a pint of oil every week or two. Most of it is 
coating the crossmember under the bellhousing, but there's nothing coming from 
the wading plug hole - i plugged it then removed the plug and it's bone-dry.

I can't for the life of me figure out where it's leaking from - any suggestions 
on tracing the leak before Lotus fires me for doing an Exxon Valdez in the 
parking garage?
More to the point, any suggestions on FIXING the beast?

      Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:33:49 -0500
From: Sanjay Prasad <Prasad@ba-iplaw.com>
Subject:  Winter in a Range Rover

I am looking forward to spending my first winter in New England with my
'90 Range Rover.  Has anyone had particular problems in the wintertime,
such as starting, etc, and if so, does anyone have any suggestions for
what to do to avoid them? 

Sanjay Prasad
'90 Range Rover
Boston, Massachusetts U.S.A.
e-mail: prasad@ba-iplaw.com

------------------------------

From: Harincar@mooregs.com (Tim Harincar)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:29:34 -0600
Subject: re: Cappings and Galvanizing

Val wrote:

> Or should I forget it all and slap on some cheesy silver paint?

No! Thats *exactly* what it will look like - cheesy silver paint. My PO did 
that to all my galvanized pieces and it looks like crap.

I've actually had the heathenistic thought of re-painting them all black (I 
donno, there is something about black spray paint that just *talks* to 
me...). OTOH, since I'm going to be taking the whole thing apart, I might as 
well have them re-galvanized, too.

My $.02

Tim
---
tim harincar
harincar@mooregs.com
'66 IIa 88 SW "Parts is 
Parts"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 07:33:44 MST
From: Brad Taylor <bradt@array.com>
Subject: disco CD changer

Is there any experiance fitting an after-market CD changer to a disco?

Is there some special magic in the Land Rover CD changer which makes it the
only option?

Brad

------------------------------

From: Harincar@mooregs.com (Tim Harincar)
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:41:43 -0600
Subject: Re: Freewheel Insecurity

>>Trevor "I'm taking off my Warns" Easton

>Alan "If you do I'll buy 'em"Richer

No! I want 'em! :-)

Tim
---
tim harincar, aka the Scavenger
harincar@mooregs.com
'66 IIa 88 SW

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:01:11 +0200 (GMT+0200)
From: Donald Abbot <donald@spl.co.za>
Subject: Re: Whit

On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Wouter de Waal wrote in response to Mike:
> So - if I have four bolts, 1/4" BSW, BSF, BA and AF (?) I would need four
> spanners or one shifter?

You mean a Free State micrometer?

Donald

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:03:07 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Re: Trans leaks like a sieve - but from where?

How about the oil seals at front/rear of the transfer case? Oil leaks out of
the main 'box into the transfer case,then out of the transfer case back to
nature,thoughtfully rust proofing the X-member on the way.Nothing goes to
waste.Clever people at Land Rover,arent they?
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:29:10 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: re: Cappings and Galvanizing

>> Or should I forget it all and slap on some cheesy silver paint?
>No! Thats *exactly* what it will look like - cheesy silver paint. My PO did
>that to all my galvanized pieces and it looks like crap.
>I've actually had the heathenistic thought of re-painting them all black

What I did was to use some matt grey zinc rich primer,brushed on.They
sometimes call it cold galvanisation paint.Looks quite nice,IMO.
Apart from the rusty cappings,some twerp had painted round the windshield
with *copper* coloured paint!
I did this two-three years ago,the Rover lives outside,due to the two
unfortunate circumstances of having an old wooden floored garage,and a
certain reluctance to qualify for the Lugnut Award,by being the first
bloke ever to put his Land Rover through the *floor* of a garage.(Through
the back wall is old stuff,its been done before).Anyway,the grey paint is
still OK.

Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: GElam30092@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:40:21 -0500
Subject: Phoenix

You wrote "Has anyone besides me noticed that Gerry Elam never gloats about
Phoenix 
weather in the dead of summer?  After all, he'd have to .sig his messages
with 'Gerry "Phx high: 125" Elam' ..."

Bummer... today was the first day that I've put on long pants since moving
here.   :-(

BTW: 125 degrees is hot no matter how low the humidity.  The worst day  this
summer was 123!  And, the way I look at it, it's four months of hell for 8
months of bliss!  The summers also keeps everyone else from moving here too!
 And to make it worse, the off-roading is superb!  

Have a Merry Christmas!  
Gerry "only up to 62 today" Elam

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:48:00 -0500
From: ecrover@midcoast.com (Mike Smith)
Subject: Series I

Dear all,
        Mark Talbot asked about Series I's. The SI grew from 80" to 86" in 1953.

        Taking off your FWHubs? Why? The hubs are a great thing that add
versatility to your Rover. Really, how many people have broken a half
shaft, on a hill, with the hubs disengaged, then at the same time had your
brakes totally fail, so you roll down and hit someone! Isn't that sort of
over thinking the possibilities.
        Fuel mileage, top speed, less wear and tear on the tires, easier
streering, on and off road versatility, listen to your fellow digest
contributors, they are giving you good advice.

Mike Smith, ECR

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:55:44 -0500
From: "Craig R. Jett" <cjett@voicenet.com>
Subject: Wading the Disco

In response to a recent thread I posted some pictures at 
http://www.voicenet.com/~cjett/interest.html. As you will see, my 95 
Disco swam through water 3/4 of the way up the door.  Not a cough or 
any other protest from the Disco.  Also not a drop of water inside.  By 
the way, this was on a rally sponsered by Cherry Hill Imports of NJ, 
USA.  Just thought some you might be interested.

Craig Jett
95 Alpine White Discovery

I wave to everyone, every car that I pass, just so no one will feel left 
out.
I also take it off road whenever possible!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:35:25 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Re: Freewheel Insecurity

>>>Trevor "I'm taking off my Warns" Easton
>>Alan "If you do I'll buy 'em"Richer
>No! I want 'em! :-)

I suppose the next best offer in this auction is when someone asks
Trevor to pay *them* to take 'em off his hands........

Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:36:59 +0000
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Re: Whit

>> So - if I have four bolts, 1/4" BSW, BSF, BA and AF (?) I would need four
>> spanners or one shifter?
>You mean a Free State micrometer?

Or a Yorkshire Slide Rule.

Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: 21 Dec 95 12:15:21 EST
From: <Chris_Browne@us014-boston-minet.ccmail.compuserve.com>
Subject: Off road contest d90 v disco

     Lzeltzer asked about the off road comparison between the d90 and 
     discovery
     
     back in Sept. (or was it October) i attended the bsroa fall off road 
     meet in the Berkshire's (part of western mass) with my 
     (auto)Discovery. 2 other Discovery owners attended, a few series and a 
     swarm of d90s.
     
     As amazing as the discovery is it is not as good as NAS D90. 
     
     1: the tires (BFG) given the vehicle an inch or so extra ground 
     clearance (regular uk 90s don't have this set up therefore no 
     advantage but I hear that it is an option over there). this has to 
     help in extreme conditions but wasn't an issue (very dry conditions) 
     during the weekend. 
     
     2: shorter wheelbase on the D90. Seven inches may not sound like much 
     but it makes a bit difference in a forest. 
     
     On one particular spot when a big rock including a sharp left turn 
     needed to be negotiated, while everyone made it up ok, but the Discos 
     all clonked the rear bumper area (no damage seen) as the longer 
     wheelbase forces the rear wheel to inscribe a smaller circle while 
     turning on a disco than a 90. 
     
     3: the difference in departure angles adds to this problem. 
     
     Solution to these problems would be taking a wider turn. but it sure 
     was tight at times in the front making sure that the trees and the 
     front fender (english=wing) did not become aquainted.  
     
     Made it down with a clonk, but not before the vehicle demonstrated an 
     excellent crossaxle with a front left wheel waving in the air, the 
     rear left wheel getting awful close to the underseal with the rear 
     right waving too I am told.
     
     It sure makes for a beautiful video shot. 
     
     So the D90 is better off road make no mistake. But the Discovery is 
     extremely competent(i lost count of the times I thought I couldn't do 
     that - but did).
     
     regards
     chris browne
     95 disco (why has my rear door stopped squeaking/my stereo buzzes when 
     i turn it on/my steering wheel squeaks)
     Brit in Boston great snow around here in last couple of days 
     
      
     
      

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 09:37:46 PST
From: rlarson@lsil.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: Purchasing dilemma 

The big difference seems to be clearance and attitude.  The D90 just has
a lot more clearance.  Offroad on tight trails it makes a big difference.
Have also noticed that (please, no flames, this is a generalization and
I'm know there are exceptions, but this has been holding true
most part) that Disco owners aren't nearly as willing to risk dents as 
D90 owners.  In fact most of the D90 owners I know have dings and dents
due to off road driving.  

It is a matter of degree.  I'd guess that Discos will handle 95%+ of off
road trails with the same degree of aplomb that D90s do.  On the other
hand, "serious" offroaders tend to seek out those 5% of the trails other 
vehicles have trouble with and spend  their time there.   One
approach you might consider would be to buy a Disco and drive it offroad.
Where you find deficiencies in its performace you can correct them with
aftermarket accessories.  You'll still have the comfort of a Discovery but
with the right stuff you'll end up better off road then a stock D90.   
(AirLockers, bigger more aggressive tires, skid plates, winch, side sill 
protection would be on the top of my list.  After, basic safety stuff of
course.)  

The downside is that the window of opportunity on obtaining D90s is small.
If money is no object I'd buy the D90 SW and see how it works.  If you don't
like it you can sell it (to me :) ) and pick up a Disco.  The reverse is
likely to be impossible or significantly harder.  

In general I've found driver attitude and skill more important than the LR 
being driven.  Tires and lockers seem to make the most difference after
that.  Clearance then becomes key.  The D90 has much more aggressive tires
and much more clearance then the Disco.  The mystery as to why neither 
has factory lockers may never be solved.......    

-Rick    

 

Richard Larson
LSI Logic Corporation
(408) 433-7149

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:44:45 -0800
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Purchasing dilemma 

In message <199512201329.IAA05318@butler.uk.stratus.com> Lee Zeltzer writes:
;
; 
> Realisticly how does the D90 compare to the Disco off road? Is it really a 
> better vehicle or do real men just drive D or series rovers? 
;
I think which car is better depends upon where you drive.  Both cars will 
probably do just as well in open offroading.  The Disco will give you better 
misquito protection and will allow yo to drive in air conditioned comfort out of
the dust while listening to your favorate CDs.

But if you head out to places where the mud is deep or your crawling over rocks,
the D90 is the best of the breed hands down.

According to my local Land Rover dealer, women purchase 5/8s of the Defenders 
they sell.  Mostly men purchase Discos.  But I will have to admit a lot more men
then women own series Land Rovers.

TeriAnn

twakeman@apple.com

              
                         
                       

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:17:10 -0800
From: "TeriAnn Wakeman"  <twakeman@apple.com>
Subject: Re: WHEELS & TIRES

In message <199512200215.VAA04486@butler.uk.stratus.com>  writes:
 
> HEY Y'ALL,
> Someone on the list made a posting about steel takeoff wheels from a Disco
>; fitting a series Rover.Well I talked to my local Land Rover dealer (Jax FL)
> and
> he said that all of the Discos come with aluminum wheels.Does anyone know of
; other dealers that would be willing to ship some.Also what size tires are
> people 
; using on series vehicles (I have a 109 s/w) I am considering a 235/85-16.

Last time I looked the spare wheel was steel.  Go back to your local Disco
dealer and ask to look at a spare tyre (ie have them take the cover off the 
spare on one of the cars).

I have a set of these 7 inch wide black wheels on my 109.  They fit nicely.
I'm running 265/70/16  B F Goodrich Mud Terrains on my 109.  Fits nicely.

TeriAnn

twakeman@apple.com

              
                         
                       

------------------------------

From: "Tom Rowe" <TROWE@AE.AGECON.WISC.EDU>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:38:33 GMT -0600
Subject: Re: Trans leaks like a sieve - but from where?

Alan,
I'd find a place that steam cleans and get it clean as possible then 
keep a close eye on it to see what gets dirty.
I've seen the drain plugs leak if the washers are totally crushed.

> More to the point, any suggestions on FIXING the beast?

The easiest way to fix LR oil leaks is to sell it, although I 
wouldn't suggest doing that.

Tom Rowe
UW-Madison Center for Dairy Research    
608-265-6194, Fax:608-262-1578        
trowe@ae.agecon.wisc.edu                

 Four wheel drive allows you to get
 stuck in places even more inaccessible.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: snow
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:49:38 -0500
From: Ron Franklin <oldhaven@biddeford.com>

-- [ From: Ron Franklin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------

> Date: Thursday, 21-Dec-95 09:22 AM
> From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus    \ Internet:   
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
> Subject: Re: snow
> What' it take to fit a plow to a Rover? I was thinking of my 109.....but
I've 
> heard that this can cause real chassis problems.
>      Info, please?
>       ajr
> To:   Ron Franklin             \ Internet:    (oldhaven@biddeford.com)

-------- REPLY, End of original message --------

	Fit up isn't too bad if you have a plow rig that was designed for a Rover
originally.  That way all the parts fit within reason, and you don't have to
be anything but hand tool proficient.  Adapting  a rig designed for a Jeep
or other small 4wd is also possible if you can cut and weld, and I've done
it, but better to trust the engineers at Fisher, and try to locate a used
Rover setup. Be sure to get all the parts, even if the PO doesn't want to do
the work to remove them from his vehicle.  The important parts are the ones
unique to the Rover, and include things you don"t normally think of like an
add-on or double pulley to drive the Hydraulics, the mounting fixture for
the Hydraulic pump, and all the parts and pieces which mount the operating
cables to the valve and the dashboard.
	If everything is there, and working, you should be able to set yourself up
for plowing in a day, assuming you've had the good sense to do this in
September, and aren't working in icewater or a snowdrift.  After the initial
installation, it takes about an hour in the fall and again in the spring to
put on or remove the pieces you will or won't need for the next 6 months(
assuming you get that much winter).  You can fit the actual plow in about
five minutes, depending on your back condition for the last little alignment
of the plow to the frame.
	Fisher plows, with which I am most familiar, come in a couple of different
varieties for LR's.  One has all the cylinders attached to the plow itself,
and the other leaves the lifting cylinder attached to the vehicle when the
plow is removed.  They both work well, as I have used both, though I  prefer
the former, since it leaves less stuff on the vehicle in the off season. 
The plow frame under the vehicle reduces ground clearance drastically, but
can be removed fairly easily for the summer, as mentioned above, along with
the drive belt for the hyd. pump.  Both of these types are designed so that
a Koenig winch can still be mounted, and I recommend some sort of winch
since you will undoubtedly bury youself in a drift several times a season.
	As for wear and tear, if you are going to plow for a living, get yourself a
big Ford, and don't worry if it destroys itself in 4 or 5 years.  I plow 4
or 500 feet of driveway from 10 to 20 times a year.  I'm not in a hurry, and
take my time and enjoy it.  The 88 I use was originally fitted with the plow
in 1965, and the man I bought it from had used it every winter for plowing. 
The original frame is still in very good shape, though I had to repair a
crack which developed, In believe, by allowing the plow frame to get loose,
allowing it to move around and stress the Rover frame.  I would definitely
not put a plow on a questionable frame because it will put a strain on it. 
Wear on the clutch, steering and suspension will be more than normal, but
what are these things for, sitting in the garage, or out getting used?  You
will need to replace your front springs with the hd type eventually, but
might as well use up the ones already on.
	I personally find the 88 handier for plowing since it will get into and out
of tighter places.  But I'm sure a 109 would do alright if you are patient
and don't have too many twists in your drive.  So, if your LR already has a
scratch or two, and you are the type who can avoid hitting any thing too big
too fast because you are not in a hurry, I'd say put on a plow and have a
good time.  
	 

------------------------------

From: Easton Trevor <TEASTON@DQC2.DOFASCO.CA>
Subject: Wrenches
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:55:00 EST

Many years ago (about 30) I encountered a set of spanners from France which 
worked by driving on the face of the hex rather than the corner. These I see 
now available from Snap On in the form of their "Flank Drive". They come as 
open, box and socket versions and really are a superior method of turning 
nuts. They will even successfully remove nuts that have been abused and have 
practically no corners left. Trouble is the're so good that in the small 
sizes its very easy to shear bolts by overtightening them. The configuration 
means that they will fit a large variety of sizes not just the AF size they 
were made for. Unfortunately coming from Snap-On they are pricy but worth it 
in the long run. (what price skinned knuckles?)

Trevor Easton

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 13:59:41 EST
From: "barnett childress" <barnett=childress%Eng%EMCHOP1@fishbowl02.lss.emc.com>
Subject: re:D90 v.s. Disco

Hi all,

Chris Browne is right I was also at the BSROA fall event and the Down East 
Rally in Maine. D90's definitely have the advantage when the trail gets 
tight, tough, and nasty. In Maine the Disco's and Rangie's were bottoming 
out in the deep mud and rock trail, and having a time climbing this one 
steep, slippery, very rutted hill. When our turn came I was nervous after 
hearing vehicles in front of us bashing things underneath. I had just 
bought the LR in May and didn't know it's full potential yet. The D90 with 
the BFG M/T's went right up! I couldn't believe it!

I have traveled some trails where I live in western Mass. that were all 
large rocks. With careful wheel placement, the extra clearance, better 
aproach and departure angles the D90 made it easily. Truly amazing! I 
bought my D90 for just this reason I wanted the best performing off-road 
vehicle I could get my hands on. 

With that said I have to admit that when I saw where the Disco's and 
Rangie's went I was truly surprised. The D90 is a more capable off-roader 
but the difference was no where as great as I would have thought! 

Happy Holidays!

Barnett Childress
95 D90 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:06:45 -0800
From: russ burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Purchasing dilemma 

I have driven both off road. If you will include a 91 R-Rover as an old disco.
I think the Disco/R-ROver with an auto is the best off-road vehicle I
have driven. 
The Auto trans makes a joke out of rock crawling.
The ability to downshift on the fly takes all the fun out of climbing hills.
The longer wheelbase seems to make hill climbing easier.
The engine braking in low low is adequate.

I will admit the 2 inches less of ground clearance will get you stuck
in the mud a little sooner, and the trailer hitch tends to drag on some
of those rock ledges, and of course you have to make a couple of cuts
to get around trees you can't run over. 

But is the same breath I will admit I would rather be driving the D-90
instead of the R-Rover. No it is not the fear of denting the poor thing
(I have a dent in every fender), but the those flat fenders are a great
place to fix lunch on, and your beer does not slide off.....

I find it interesting 5/8 of the D-90 buyers are women. Maybe that
explains why my wife is not complaining about the D-90 SW I am getting here.
She said to surprise her....
Russ Burns
91 R-ROver
94 D-90

At 09:44 AM 12/21/95 -0800, TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:

>According to my local Land Rover dealer, women purchase 5/8s of the Defenders 
>they sell.  Mostly men purchase Discos.  But I will have to admit a lot
more men
>then women own series Land Rovers.
>TeriAnn
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 14 lines)]
>TeriAnn
>twakeman@apple.com
Russ Burns
cisco/Ford
313-317-0451

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:45:20 -0600
From: William Owen <ib011ca@smtpaoc.tsc.state.tn.us>
Subject:  Disco v. RR classic

   On the subject of comparisons, how do those who have experienced
both off-road think the old RR compares to the Disco. 

    It seems they would be similar except for maybe approach/ departure
angles and the center diff.  Of course the old RR's smaller 205 tires
probably hinder it too.  (can you upgrade to 235 or so without problems?)

   Any thoughts?

   Still searching for MY 89 Range Rover,
     William

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:53:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Winter in a Range Rover

>>Has anyone had particular problems in the wintertime

My '89 RR starts like a champ in the Wisconsin cold (-28 F a few weeks ago -
still air, not wind chill), although it has its quirks & groans at that
temperature.  The power stearing feels a little leaden for the first few
miles and the normally supple suspension seems a bit hard & brittle.

My only problem with Annabelle is the heater temp.  It's sort of like my old
Volvo's A/C.  If you're going on a trip it'll get the car comfortable, but
forget comfort on the short haul around town.  

So, here's a question for all of you out there in Range Roverland:  Is there
a thermostat swap that would cure my woes (and frozen toes)?  Will the
typical vanilla-flavored US auto store variety work in a RR or do I need
something "British"?  With my current set-up, my temp gauge spends most of
the summer on the edge of the red and wintertimes at the very bottom of the
scale.

Oh yes, other cold weather problems inherant to RRs is the VERY poor design
of the rear window latch.  It sits inside a little cup that is faced up, so
it collects & freezes any moisture that's around.  Lock deicer should be
standard issue for cold-weather RRs.

Tony

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:55:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Winter in a Range Rover (#2)

>>Has anyone had particular problems in the wintertime

More....   If you have front or rear lamp gaurds, these are great for
collecting snow and covering the lights.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:01:36 -0600
From: William Owen <ib011ca@smtpaoc.tsc.state.tn.us>
Subject:  Consumer Reports hits Disco again

Did anyone see CR's latest shot at the Disco.  In a follow up to it's not so
great review, CR now questions the off road ability of the disco, the only
thing it got credit for in the first report.  They said the steering
components (?) are too low and exposed.  Their disco's steering was
damaged when they hit a hole on a dirt road.  Basically they told readers
not to buy a disco for its off rd ability.  
I wonder what would have happened to an explorer/Jeep GC on the
same hole and if CR's driver knows dip about driving off rd.  The shame is
that some people who really want a capable off rd vehicle are going to be
influenced away from one of the best on the market by this report. 
 On the bright side, less demand means lower prices for me  :)

------------------------------

From: "Robert Watson (CNA)" <a-robw@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Consumer Reports hits Disco again
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:01:04 -0800

I wouldn't worry about the impact "Consumer Reports" has on people looking 
for an "off-road" vehicle.  Mainly because it's the LAST place they'd look 
for information on off-road capabilities. To date, "Consumer Reports" is the 
only negative report on the Discovery I've seen. All others are fair and 
accurate in their reviews. OTOH, if you are looking for a 4WD mall-wagon, 
the CR is probably a reasonable source of info.

----------
From: 	William Owen[SMTP:ib011ca@smtpaoc.tsc.state.tn.us]
Sent: 	Thursday, December 21, 1995 1:01 PM
Subject: 	Consumer Reports hits Disco again

[CR Lambasting removed]

>...The shame is
>that some people who really want a capable off rd vehicle are going to be
>influenced away from one of the best on the market by this report. 
    _____
   /|__|_\__(|                           Bob Watson
  |   |   |  \                 a-robw@microsoft.com
  |---|___|___\____      Mountlake Terrace, WA, USA 
  |  _|=  |=  |o_  }\                
 [|_/_ \__|___|/_\_}|    '95 Beluga Black Discovery
    \_/        \_/                            N7UMU

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 17:30:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Russell U Wilson <ruwst+@pitt.edu>
Subject: 1970 light wht for sale in Pa.

For anyone interested in a vehicle that is in such a condition that it 
could place in any British Car show you'd want to take it to drop me a 
note for more information.  This Rover is in close to mint condition and 
is presently in a garage in the Pittsburgh area.  The owner is a friend 
and I am acting as the seller because of his hectic schedule. 

Russ
67' 88  "The Pig"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 18:46:38
From: IIIDmentia@gnn.com (WILLIAM ADAMS)
Subject: Re: 'Cappings' and rivet etiquette #2

>Did you replace the original round-head rivets with the same?  I've
>only used the "pop" rivet tool which has the ones with the hole in the
>center.  How are the round head ones different to replace?  I think
>the round head ones look much nicer on the cappings and would prefer
>the original look of them.

How many friends do you have? I ask this because it will sway your decision.
		 Pop rivets...one man job.
		"Round head" rivets...two man job.
 
Pop rivets are available with the blind end either 'open' or 'closed'. Not  
surprisingly, open end rivets are more widely available as they are cheaper. 
Closed end rivets are supposed to be water resistant as they effectively seal 
up the hole. In either case, they're easier to use than the "old fashioned' 
round head rivets on the Rover because they use a special tool and install 
from the outside. Us uppity Series Rover owners always use closed pop rivets, 
keeps out the elements!

If you insist on the real thing you'll need the help of another pair of hands 
to "back" the rivet head as you round it over on the inside (these 
contortions are always amusing to your helper). There are special tools that 
fit the particular size rivet you are assaulting. A capable hardware person 
should know what you're talking about.

A word about galvanic corrosion: be sure to use like metals when using 
fasteners. Steel rivets (or any fastener) in aluminum is a no-no as the 
combination of moisture and electrons eat the contacting surfaces into 
oblivion.I'd splurge and buy the official Rover Rivets because the engineers 
have spec'ed the rivets to take this phenomenon into account. 
All my troubles are Rover

Bill Adams
3Dmentia Video Animation
4016 Spruell Drive
Kensington,MD 20895
301-949-9475

1966 S2a 109" SW Diesel "Keeping it stock in the face of common sense"

" One of these days I'm going to have this thing melted down and hammered into a coffin,
because when they lay me out it will be THIS son of a bitch that put me in it."
All my troubles are Rover

Bill Adams
3Dmentia Video Animation
4016 Spruell Drive
Kensington,MD 20895
301-949-9475

1966 S2a 109" SW Diesel "Keeping it stock in the face of common sense"

" One of these days I'm going to have this thing melted down and hammered into a coffin,
because when they lay me out it will be THIS son of a bitch that put me in it."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 18:59:11
From: IIIDmentia@gnn.com (WILLIAM ADAMS)
Subject: RE: Consumer Reports hits Disco again

CR staffers are paid to figure out the WRONG way to do everything. They 
succeed in spades.
All my troubles are Rover

Bill Adams
3Dmentia Video Animation
4016 Spruell Drive
Kensington,MD 20895
301-949-9475

1966 S2a 109" SW Diesel "Keeping it stock in the face of common sense"

" One of these days I'm going to have this thing melted down and hammered into a coffin,
because when they lay me out it will be THIS son of a bitch that put me in it."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 20:08:47 -0500
From: rthomas@postoffice.ptd.net (Randall Thomas)
Subject: Re: Winter in a Range Rover

>in the Wisconsin cold (-28 F a few weeks ago -
>still air, not wind chill), although it has its quirks & groans at that
>temperature.  The power stearing feels a little leaden for the first few
>miles 
When I replaced my steering pump, I changed to Amsoil synthetic ATF in the
power steering 
system.  This eliminated the cold weather sluggishness completely.

>  With my current set-up, my temp gauge spends most of
>the summer on the edge of the red and wintertimes at the very bottom of the
>scale.
Sounds like you have cooling system problems.  My 88 RR runs just below half
scale winter or 
summer under most all conditions.  I have gone through 3 temp guage sender
units  though.  If you're still running the factory thermostat, you should
first try replacing it.

Cheers, Randall

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:35:21 -0600 (CST)
From: David Place <dplace@SIRNet.mb.ca>
Subject: Re: Gearbox treatments.

I use Slick 50 in my IIA in the gearbox, the difs, the main sump and the 
balls mixed with grease.  It really works well even at cold temps.  What 
I noticed most is the reduction in noise once the stuff had a few minutes 
to circulate around.  It has a good gling property that seems to help the 
engine on start up so we don't get as much lifter rattle before the pump 
comes up to pressure.  Go ahead and use it Danny, it seems to work great.
Dave VE4PN

------------------------------

From: ASFCO@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:58:18 -0500
Subject: Re:  Lightweight for sale in PA

Would someone kindly send me the posting on the 1970 lightweight for Sale in
PA ...I deleted it by mistake..Thanks

                                                                        Steve
Bradke       72 s lll 88

------------------------------

From: jpappa01@interserv.com
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 20:32:04 -0800
Subject: Re: 	A Good Wish

To all LROs:

I sincerely wish every LRO anywhere the happiest of holidays and a great 1996! 
I've enjoyed reading the list every night since I went on-line. Even when I 
trudge up to my little escape over the garage at 11PM, I read the list before 
working on the newsletter and the inevitable passing out on top of the 
keyboard. The n-key rollover finally wakes me up with its chirping!

1995 was an exciting world in the LR world. 1996 will continue the pattern. 
Even though the Defender is taking a break, the rumors will be rampant for 
1997 with who knows what coming down the road. Stretch Disco? New model Landy? 
Will Defender come back? We'll all wait and see together. If nothing else, 
there should be some lively stuff on the list!

Meanwhile, I stare at my reconstructed NADA 6-cyl chassis laying on the garage 
floor - dreaming of the time that I'll *HAVE* the time to put poor old Big Red 
right again! And then I need to make it up to M'ville to retreive my poor old 
2A and get her finished. The recent resurgence in Series cars restos and frame 
ups has been nothing short of astonishing! Scan the prices in the ABP and RN 
lists to see what I'm talking about!

But when all of the hoopla is stripped away, its just you in your trusty Land 
Rover and the feeling that you get no matter what or when. Tough to put into 
words to a non-LRO. Yep, the feeling. Nothing else quite like them, is there?

See you on (and off) the trail in 1996!

cheers
Jim - 2 more years and my 2A will be 30!!

`67 2A 88 5.0L hybrid
`67 2A 109 5.0L hybrid
`68 2B 110 F/C diesel
`70 P6B 3500S
`90 Range Rover County
`93 D110 (#457/500)
`95 D90 #1958

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:34:36 +1100 (EST)
From: Lloyd Allison <lloyd@cs.monash.edu.au>
Subject: broken half shafts

Shafts twist on a trail then work harden and snap in the car park
a week or three later - quite common with non Salisbury axles.
If you check them after the hard trip and find a twist
(usually at the inner splines) it saves a lot of bother to replace
them before they actually fail.

Lloyd

------------------------------

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