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From: Andrew Grafton <A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Which tyres?
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 13:13:26 BST

Hope I'm not being too much of a pain-in-the-arse with the volume of 
questions recently, but the time has arrived where we need to be 
spending money and I appreciate your well informed opinions.

Tyres.  Have spoken to a number of tyre salesmen, two tyre companies

to conclude an awful lot. The question is : which to buy?

The brief : 
Driving 2 x 109" SIII diesels from UK to South Africa.
Total distance to be covered is between 10K and 12K
miles.  Some 2/3 will (prob.) be on relatively good
tarred roads.  Rest will be on poor tar or on (at best)
lightly corrugated dirt roads.
Worst case is badly potted and rutted, maybe muddy dirt
roads.  We are not going to be doing very silly things
as both vehicles will be fully laden, and our whole
policy is to avoid trouble if we can by going round, not
over or through.
Would like a good lot of tread left on the tyres at the
end of the journey to help sell the vehicles on.
Don't want the tyres to go wrong, and want to use tubes.
Don't want to pay through the nose
Bear in mind that we have 2 vehicles, pulleys, ropes, 
winches, ground anchors, sandladders etc. so getting stuck
isn't going to be the end of the earth. 

So far I have concluded the following;

* Don't take any kind of remoulds
* Radials preferable to crossplys
* Buy a multipurpose tyre to save on-road wear and noise
* There is a trade-off between the # of tyre plies / wall thicknesses
  (which seems to equate to strength) and ride comfort.

So...  Any suggestions?  Have been recommended BFG Track edge (sp) and
Avon Rangemasters more than once so far - that is the price range we're 
looking at (80 quid UK, don't know what these things cost in the US)

Anyone with suitable experience, speak up!  If my conclusions are wrong
so far, don't be afraid to let me know...  Thanks for listening,

Andy
A.J.Grafton@lut.ac.uk
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 95 07:39:41 EST
From: "Lapa, Hank" <hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com>
Subject: LRNA lurker

     I would guess that it is not this guy's *job* to maintain an LRNA 
     presence on the net.  If so, he's a subscriber like the rest of us, 
     who happens to work for LRNA.  It seems reasonable that he does not 
     want to become a lightning rod for hundreds of good ideas, gripes, 
     personnal problems, stalkers, or whatever because of this affiliation, 
     as may have already started.  (Sounds like good headwork on his part.)
     
     LRNA *should* maintain a formal, corporate infohighway presence to 
     receive all of the above and whatever other praise or abuse that 
     ownership of their product inspires.  Since they seem to target that 
     portion of the American market with more money and free time than 
     brains and responsibilities (Hollywood trash and suburban yups), i.e., 
     people with "lifestyles" instead of lives "lives," rather than the 
     real people who seem to populate our more down-to-earth list, I am 
     glad someone at LRNA is subscribed.  They definitely need to see that 
     a good part of their American clientele knows what an axle breather is 
     for and wish not to be priced out of the marque by multiple power 
     sunroofs and talking electronics.  (For some of us, the "image" 
     attached to owning a 35-year old safari car begs no improvement, and 
     we will never send our personnal assistant out to pick up a new Rangey 
     every two years.)  Until then...Hello, Anonymous Lurker, nice to know 
     you're there.  Now about that last *#$#%!*! sticker price jump on 
     Disco....
     
     Hank
     (Series II now, Discovery soon,
     both 'til death do us part)

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Which tyres?
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:27:04 BST

Andy,
I wouldnt rule out radial remoulds easily,personally.I've
got a set of Trakker 205 16 remoulds on mine,with no problems
so far.They give good grip in such mud as I've been in,are
fine on road and are wearing well.Article on p10 of the Apr LRW
is worth reading,too.Also,the things cost me #35 each,inc VAT,
fitted.

Cheers
Mike R

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:21:30 -0400
From: rvirzi@gte.com (Robert A. Virzi)
Subject: Disco comments and questions

Hey! All you disco owners out there, I've got a couple of questions for
you.  Maybe a comment or two thrown in for potential/soon-to-be disco
owners as well.  This is a bit long, so hit 'd' now if you aren't
interested.

I picked mine up last week, from MetroWest LR in the Boston area (nice
guys, btw).  I was setting up the truck this weekend, and was surprised to
find a lack of storage space for standard issue items.  The under seat area
isn't useful because of electronics and stuff (what is that under the
passenger seat?).

1. Where'd you put the owners manual?  It doesn't fit in the glove box due
to the airbag.  At least my wife managed to jam the box when the manual was
in there, so I wanted to move it.  I ended up putting it in the drivers
side door bin, but this doesn't seem like a great solution.

2. Where do you stow around-town necessities like snow scrapers, The Club, rags?

3. What about offroad things, like tools, jack, ropes, etc?  My life is
complicated by two kids that >insist< on riding in the jump seats.  I
suppose without them, things would be easier.  Probably not as much fun,
though.  I'm thinking about hooking up some kind of cargo net to hold
things against the seat, like many sedans have in there trunks, to keep
smaller things from sloshing around.  Anyone know a source for those nets?

4.  Where does one put ones travel mug whilst commuting?  I balance it on
the console between the (auto) gear selector and the passenger side lip,
but not when the truck is moving.  It isn't stable.  I've heard RN has mugs
that slip into the holders, but I've misplaced my last newsletter so
haven't had a chance to check.

5.  Is the supplied hydro jack any use when stuck?  I'm wondering if the
spot that holds it can be modified to accommodate a longer lift version.

I haven't been able to do any serious offroad yet, but I did manage to do a
little.  I'm planning on exploring the Fort Devons site this weekend, now
that it is virtually abandoned.  I hear there is some good fun to be had up
there.  It is best to stay off the old firing range, however.  <BOOM>  ;-o

My vehicle came with only two little imperfections.  One is that annoying
radio buzz when you turn it on.  Has anyone noticed that if you leave the
radio on, you don't get the noise?  Maybe it is designed to work this way,
although I didn't see anything in manual saying so.  The other is that the
gearshift selector doesn't quite line up with the red indicator thingy.
Makes it a lttle hard to tell when a gear is engaged.  Other wise, very
solid, very clean, and well prepped.  And I'd really like to hear how
you've got your truck set up!

-Bob

  rvirzi@gte.com             Think Globally. ===
  +1(617)466-2881                            === Act Locally!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 95 09:23:29 EST
From: "Lapa, Hank" <hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com>
Subject: Retreads

     If retreads can be used on C-130s (they are), they ought to be 
     considered for Land-Rovers, especially if the L-R is to be sold at the 
     end of the trip.
     
     Hank

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:41:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Francis J. Twarog" <ftwarog@moose.uvm.edu>
Subject: LRNA reps etc.

I whole-heartedly agree with Stephen's suggestions/opinions in the 4/5/95 
digest. I thought I'd include my own and elaborate on some of his...  Up 
front, I don't think Land Rovers are for everyone and I'm sure LR 
themselves agree with me - they target customers by creating a product 
that they think is marketable in LIMITED numbers.  The price of the 
Defender 90 sets it well above the average person and that is the person 
that LR wants as a customer.  In essense, if they wanted to make a 
Jeep-competitor (in that $-range, I mean) in the US, they would have 
already. My hope is that in the future, LR (and LRNA) would really listen 
to the Rover enthusiasts - something that they sort of do already, but 
not enough... Simple things like being able to get steel wheels for the 
90 instead of having to get alloys (or even an aluminum hardtop kit, but I 
won't get into that again...) or offering the Discovery 5 speed in option 
configurations other than" all or nothing" - how many people think that 
there is (was) a market for 5 speed or even 2 door Range Rovers here in 
the US?  I guess I'm going off in a person tangent, but if LRNA is 
reading this, please consider offering a network to not only new owners, 
but to loyal enthusiasts - they're the people that will be able to offer 
the best advise! Send more reps out to rallies/ Rover events - I know 
that Scott Tucker shows up every so often at BSROA things, and I think 
that this is a good thing - perhaps this could be a more regular 
occurance?  Quite simply, there has to be a venue for people to voice 
their VALUABLE opinions and the internet is just one way to do it.  Put 
questionaires in the Aluminum Workhorse and other club newsletters... 
make yourself visible at the rallies... etc. etc. - It WILL be worthwhile 
and WILL help to solidify the future of Land Rover in the US!!  Thank you 
and keep in mind, if you need someone to do this for you, I know of one 
soon-to-be college grad that would love to get involved (he can be 
reached at this email address!).
Frank Twarog
Vermont, USA

------------------------------

Subject: notes from rover friends surfing the net...
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 95 11:07:39 -0400
From: William Caloccia <caloccia@sw.stratus.com>

 >From cas@unb.ca  Wed Apr  5 03:03:40 1995
 Subject: Looking for WWW Site re Rover Cars
 
 Hello;
 
 I have found several ways to obtain information relative to Land-Rovers.  I
 belong to the Rover Car Club of Canada and own a Rover 2000TC.  I and
 another RCCC member are trying to make contact with a site on the WWW, if it
 exists, that does for Rover cars what the RoverWeb
 in Australia have done for the Land-Rover.  Are you aware of a Rover car
 site on the internet?  If so, would you please send me its www or e-mail
 address?  Many thanks for whatever info you can provide.
 
 Tony Short

Hi Tony,
 
	You may want to check out the brit-car pages located at WWW.Team.Net

	There are various automotive pages in the UK, but no Rover Clubs 
	of which I'm aware. 
 
	-B

 >From erussell@cln.etc.bc.ca  Wed Apr  5 06:01:56 1995
 Subject: Rover Car Club of Canada
 
 I had the pleasure of viewing your WWW pages and found our Club listed as 
 a help source on the West Coast.  That's true.  However, the name you 
 showed as The Rover Car Club of B.C. is about 5 years out of date.  We 
 received an expanded mandate by the Rover Group,UK to use the name The 
 Rover Car Club of Canada.
 That doesn't restrict us to Rover cars nor Canada.  We have many members 
 in Washington, Virginia, and Arizona states.  We have also just 
 We noticed that Land Rover owners were well looked after by your www but 
 that car owners needing advice could do with a contact.
 Regards,
 Eric Russell, Secretary, The Rover Car Club of Canada
 
 erussell@cln.etc.bc.ca
 Grade 6 teacher at Ridgeview Elementary School, West Vancouver, B.C., Canada
 Secretary of The Rover Car Club of Canada

------------------------------

Date: 05 Apr 95 12:13:37 EDT
From: ritter mark c <70472.1130@compuserve.com>
Subject: Tirfor winches

Does anybody out there know of a U.S. supplier of Tirfor winches. I have seen
them advertised in LRW magazine, but as they are made in Germany I don't want to
pay both the U.K. import duty and the shipping to the US. They seem like they
would be much more flexible than a come-along as you would not be limited to a
fixed short length of cable. I have senn them up to a capacity of 2.5 british
tonnes @ 6000 pounds which should be sufficient to unstick all but the most
insane.

------------------------------

From: Willyz@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:45:53 -0400
Subject: Wheels/Tires Series III 88

Hello,
I am about to upgrade the wheels and tires on my 73 Series III 88 and would
appreciate any helpful comments on tires anybody may have. I have 16" LR
wheels (being painted right now) and am undecided on what tires to mount. I
know, I know, it depends on what kind of driving I will be doing..........
I'm leaning towards a 235/75-16 Dunlop Mud Rover. I like the idea of a
tall/skinny tire for both looks and to decease RPM. I don't see many 7.50-16s
available around here. Any comments?

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 09:37:38 PDT
From: rlarson@lsil.com (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: LRNA reps etc.

>The price of the 
>Defender 90 sets it well above the average person and that is the person 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>Jeep-competitor (in that $-range, I mean) in the US, they would have 
>already. 
....stuff deleted......
>even 2 door Range Rovers here in the US

You'll probably want to hit up your Congressmen first.  In order to protect
Jeep from 2 door competion (Suzuiki, Geo, etc.)  The US government imposed 
a 25% tariff on 2 door sport utilities.  Remove the 25% and you start getting
a lot closer in price to a fully loaded, 6 cylinder, Wrangler.  It is also 
why most import 2 door SUV's (Landrunners, Pathfinders etc.) have disappeared 
from the market.  The 25% duty means they end up costing more than 4 door 
versions.

>Frank Twarog
>Vermont, USA
>that LR wants as a customer.  In essense, if they wanted to make a 

I recently called LRNA about '96 D90 availability.  LRNA either really
doesn't know or for business reasons has decided not to release this info yet.

Anyone answering to email is going to be operating under the same constraints.
Either that, or do a grave disservice to their corporation and leak internal
information.   If they lurk, and use that information to improve their products,
more power to them.  Using internet as a medium for communication with their
customers does not imply increased information flow.  Nor, that they will 
grant all our wishes. ($10K RR's or a '96 Series IIA 88).  I do hope they
take the internet opportunity seriously.   It provides a very direct and
convenient way to reach their customers.   I don't expect it to get me an
aluminum top for my D90.  Someone at LRNA has to make that decision. 

-Rick
Rick Larson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 10:06:14 PDT
From: labranch@sybase.com (Jason LaBranch)
Subject: Irratic Timing

We are talking about a 1970 IIA 88" 2.25 petrol.

When I try to time my beast the timing mark moves around iratically.  Most
will say that this is my timing chain, but here, I have another piece of
infomation that is usefull.

When I attach my tachometer to the beast and the rpms are over 1000 then
the needle is steady.  When the rpms drop below 1000 then the needle begins
to bounce around ABOVE and BELOW the 1000 rpm mark.

I think this is a problem with the distributor.  What do you think?  I do
not want to lay down $195 if I do not need to.

Yours,
Jason

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Apr 95 12:25:44 EST
From: "Lapa, Hank" <hlapa@Zeus.signalcorp.com>
Subject: Re: Wheels/Tires Series III 88

     Bill,
     
     I got some Daytons about seven years ago, mud tires with self-cleaning 
     tread, tall and thin -- great in snow.  I don't know about present 
     availability, but everyone whose seen them likes them.  (I don't drive 
     the beast enough to have worn them out yet.  
     
     Noise...what noise?  You'll have to speak up.  ;-)
     
     Hank

> Subject: Wheels/Tires Series III 88
> Author:  Willyz@aol.com at Zeus

	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 13 lines)]
> appreciate ........
> Bill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:48:49 -0400
From: berg@acf2.NYU.EDU (Jeff Berg)
Subject: Re: Webbing winches

Dave VE4PN writes:

>Well the webbing I use here for towing is about 4" across and has "D"
>Rings at each end.

I hope I haven't implied that I disapprove of nylon webbing for towing.  I
believe I stated that my tow/recovery strap is constructed of nylon.  My
concern was directed at using nylon stap in a winch.  As in many feet of
the webbing wrapping around and around the winch drum.  It seems to me that
webbing with a small enough cross section to actually do this would not be
strong enough for the job.  In addition, nylon webbing is subject to
abrasion damage.  (So is steel cable, but not to quite to the same degree.)

>I guess I would rather have them hit me under load than a steel cable.

If it actually hits you under load, that is to say a snapped strap, it's
gonna feel just as bad as the cable.

And now on to more pleasant thoughts...

Keep on Roverin'

JAB

==                                                                 ==
 Jeffrey A. Berg              Interactive Telecommunications Program
 Technical Administrator                         New York University
                          berg@acf2.nyu.edu
                          =================
               My garden is full of papayas and mangos.
          My dance card is filled with merengues and tangos.
                       Taste for the good life.
                      I can see it no other way.
                           --Jimmy Buffett, Lone Palm (live version)
==                                                                 ==

------------------------------

From: Sanna@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:58:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Irratic Timing

Your erratic timing IS due to  a loose timing chain.  More than likely you've
broken a tooth of the tensioner ratchet.  Bite the bullet now and replace it
before the chain snaps and you have to rebuild the head to replace bent
valves.  It's not a hard job, just a lot of unbolting to remove the radiator
& stuff.  Believe me.  In 25 years I've gone through a number of chains.  

I ultimately solved the problem by replacing the mains and the oil pump.  My
pressure jumped from 40 to 60 lbs. and solved the problem of sloppy chains.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: LRNA reps etc. 
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 12:36:39 -0700
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

Francis Twarog wrote:
  The price of the 
  Defender 90 sets it well above the average person and that is the person 
  that LR wants as a customer.  In essense, if they wanted to make a 
  Jeep-competitor (in that $-range, I mean) in the US, they would have 
  already.

	I have to disagree with this.  I don't think that the price of the
D90 in the US necessarily means that LR doesn't only want the above average
income person as a customer.  I think that LR would like to compete with
Jeeps, but the facts of life prevent that.  

	First, I believe that the D90 is a no hold barred, off road vehicle
that is designed to last for decades of off road use.  (And lets not get 
into the Series vs defender survivability through the ages debate again).
So as not to compromise quality of the product, I would understand if the
D90 was somewhat more expensive than its competition.  

	So what is the cost of a US spec D90?  According to a post from
Jim Pappas a while back MSRP for a hardtop variant is about US $32k.
For the foreigner on the list the US spec D90 has special roll cage
and only comes with a 3.9l 182 hp V8.   From talking to dealers in a non
dealership/non-customer situation, LR is not making much (if any) profit
on the D90s in the US--I think they were mostly imported as a way to intro
the Disco.

	We all know that the US slaps a 25% tarriff on 2 door SUVs.  This
is probably before any state or local taxes, so the tariff probably equates
to US$7 to $8000.  Right there the price is dropped to $24 to $25,000.
Also the V8 is not standard and has to have US admission controls.  And the
roll cage is a US market thing only, which means special manufacturing for
a limited number of vehicles (2000 or so--Jim could probably answer this one).
This equates to more dollars on the price.  So without the cage and with
the 300 Tdi, I would expect the hartop D90 to be about US$22,000.  Suddenly,
the LR is in the affordable price bracket for many more people.  So it
looks like life, the case of the D90, has forced LR to sell in a higher
price range.

	Working backwards is ok, but if we look at known prices in other
places do we get the same answer.  Rovers North also will buy a LR from
the factory and ship it anywhere in the world for you (except the US).
I can't remember their price for a hardtop, but I recall their price for
a soft or pickup top  (I can't remember which) was about US $20,000 plus
shipping and local taxes.  From earlier posts on this forum, a shipping
a container from UK to the US is about US $1000 to $US 1500.  Factoring
in this + a hartop(say $500), we get a base vehicle price of about
$22,000 US.  Remember that RN is making a profit on this price and that
shipping for LR would be less because they'll ship in bulk.  In any case
the two answers are exactly the same.  (I forgot to say it above, but the 
RN price was for a TDi vehicle).  The MRSP also includes dealer profit
and LR profit.  (Oh, and to be fair, I didn't know the answers were
going to be identical beforehand, I was kind surprised when I looked up
the the preceeding paragraph to compare and the numbers were the same). 

	So I would be forced to conclude that LR is not making much profit on
the D90s and cannot reduce the price by any significant amount with the
current regulations.  There have been rumors of a new, economy, 4 door,
unibody LR being developed.  But if it exists, such a vehicle may have
duribility and ruggedness sacrificed to keep the price down.  We'll have to
wait and see on that one though.
 

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 13:14:59 PDT
From: mtalbot@InterServ.Com (Mark Talbot)
Subject: Re: SIIA Parts for sale

All, 

Just bought a good SIIA station wagon, 16" wheels etc, the frame is in okay 
state needs patching though. The engine and box are in good condition. They 
have approx. 65K on the clock. 

Anyway I'm breaking it up in a few weeks if anyone is interested in any parts, 
send me an-email with your requirements. 

Mark

------------------------------

Date: 05 Apr 95 17:06:44 EDT
From: ritter mark c <70472.1130@compuserve.com>
Subject: Brano and Tirfor winches

As an addendum to my previous message I have found another brand of cable winch
known as the BRANO. There are several adds for this unit in LRW magazine. If
anybody could give me some info on either this or the Tirfor, particuarly the
name and location of the manufacturer and whether they have a US distibutor it
would be a great help.
Mark Ritter   94 Disco

------------------------------

Subject: Re: Irratic Timing 
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 14:26:19 -0700
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

Sanna@aol.com wrote:

> Your erratic timing IS due to  a loose timing chain.  More than likely you've
> broken a tooth of the tensioner ratchet.  Bite the bullet now and replace it
> before the chain snaps and you have to rebuild the head to replace bent
> valves. 

	Replace bent valves if the timing chain snaps?  I don't see how this 
would happen.  Last year I suffered a stuck valve on my 2.25 petrol.  Based
on my measurements, if a valve is jammed fully open, there is still clearance
between it and the piston at all times.  So what would bend the valve?  If the
valve jams by itsself, you will bend the push rod, but if the chain snaps, the
cam will stop and the valves will remain static.

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: LRNA reps etc.
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 17:40:13 EDT

> more power to them.  Using internet as a medium for communication with their
> customers does not imply increased information flow.  Nor, that they will 
> grant all our wishes.

Yo, Mr. Rep-

My only wish is that you guys continue to support the series rigs parts
business.....you can make a little cash on me an my cronnies for the
rest of your lives and your kids lives and your grandkids lives and.....

Please,
or I'll never buy a new Range Rover product, EVER.

rd/nigel

------------------------------

From: "Russell G. Dushin" <dushinrg@pr.cyanamid.com>
Subject: Re: Irratic Timing
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 17:58:15 EDT

> When I attach my tachometer to the beast and the rpms are over 1000 then
eluded lro-lite
> the needle is steady.  When the rpms drop below 1000 then the needle begins
eluded lro-lite
> to bounce around ABOVE and BELOW the 1000 rpm mark.
eluded lro-lite
> I think this is a problem with the distributor.  What do you think?  I do
eluded lro-lite
> not want to lay down $195 if I do not need to.
eluded lro-lite

Well, let's see.....my fave diagnosis is to do the "yank the plugs,
pull the cap, rock the crank back and forth and look for play at
the distributor" trick.....so why not just pull off the valve cover
and do the same? Because you don't have an overhead cam, that's why!
DoOP!  So, why not remove the distributor and just check it out?
While you're there, peek into the hole you've left behind, and have
someone else rock the crank back and forth for you....look for play
at the distributor's drive.  If there is excessive play there then
that's "upstream" of your distributor...Just gotta be sure that when you rock
the crank back and forth-usually done just by turning the fan blade-
that you are actually turning the crank and not just slipping the
belt......and make sure you go back and forth, and not just in
one direction.....ain't gonna see no play when it's all taken up.

rgds,
rd/nigel

ps anyone going to Limerock for the vintage racing this Saturday?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 15:12:21 PDT
From: labranch@sybase.com (Jason LaBranch)
Subject: Re: LRNA reps etc.

> 	So what is the cost of a US spec D90?  According to a post from
> Jim Pappas a while back MSRP for a hardtop variant is about US $32k.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> on the D90s in the US--I think they were mostly imported as a way to intro
> the Disco.

Ben,

Actually, I think they are making a bundle if you pay $32k.  I believe the
Dealer Cost is around $24k.  $8000 is a big profit.  A lot of times the
dealer cost is greater than what the dealer actually pays for the vehicle.
A lot of times the dealer gets a kick back from the manufacturer for selling
a vehicle.  I know people who have bought their vehicles for $300 over
dealer cost.  If you could do that with LRNA then you could get a stock
Defender for ~$25,000.

Jason

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 18:38:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Charge Probs (yet another)

TeriAnn's reply to S|ren...
 
> > to start. The problem is a flat battery. What puzzles me is that the
> > charge bulb is always on when starting and goes out immediately when
> > the engine turns. So it must be charging i guess.
.....snip.....
> I believe that means your generator is kicking out enough voltage while
> the engine is running that there isn't enough drainage of the battery to
> light the filiment. 
.....snip.....
> clean your battery terminals & check fluid levels. If you can, check the
> battery to see if you have a weak or bad cell (replace if necessary).  

Enlightenment, from the voice of experiance... I'd have to agree with
everything TeriAnn says.. Clean all the connections! Then pull the battery
and take it to a garage and have them check the electrolytic level. You're
"well-kept Volvo" battery would be my number one suspect. Especially if you
can't hand-crank start the beastie.

> Of course you CAN cheat, push start the car & take it to Sears & ask for a
> free diagnosis.

Well... I'd agree with everything but this last bit...  :)

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern) R.I.P.      
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 18:38:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: HELP !! RUST

William Smith is depressed...

> I am really depressed since this morning. I went to show somebody where
> the chassis number is stencilled on my SIII 2,25l pup and discovered
> rust there.

*You're* depressed??? You should take a look at old Fern's frame.. It's got
more steel plates welded on than you can count and it *still* has holes!!
Even some of the places that were repaired are rusting through...

> How do I go about fixing this ?
> I've got an arc welder and gas (oxy/acetylene) welding equipment.
> PLEASE I'm really distressed !!

OK.. get more depressed.. Once the rust demon starts, he likes to eat away
where you *can't* see.. 

I'm not a welder, but the general technique is to cut out the nasty bits and
weld in some nice clean steel.. (old road signs, barbed wire and surplus
armor won't do!) Poke around with a hammer and see if there are any other
weak spots... fix them at the same time. Once you're done, give everything a
liberal coat of 90wt oil.. inside and out.

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern) R.I.P.      
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 18:39:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Erratic Idling Revisited

Chris Stevens has visions of Rover fireballs...

> the carb is not leaking...except when I shut the motor down. Then fuel
> continues to trickle through the fuel line into the carb and collects on
> top of the butterfly, then oozes out the rear of the spindle eventually
> dripping on the manifold (now you see why I'm concerned). Is the carb body

Did you check the float level?? Might be a tad too high...

And yes, the carb body can wear, which leaves too much play in the throttle
shaft, letting air in, causing things to run too lean, etc, etc...
You might be able to get an oversized shaft or you might be able to
fabricate bushings for the shaft you have...

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern) R.I.P.      
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 18:39:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Roof paint

Dixon's reply on Roof paint....

>         109" Station Wagons had onlt the sunscreen portion painted
>         limestone. The main roof was painted body colour.  88's
>         were all limestome to my knowledge.

Just went out for a look-see at the '65.. It's an 88 IIa Station Wagon. To
the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the bulkhead and breakfast,
it has never been re-painted. The lower body is pale green and the upper
body is - pale green - and the roof is - pale green! The sun panel however
is limestone. 

Actually, the lower body is a slightly darker shade of pale green than the
upper body.. Two-tone green?? Did they do that? I say "pale green" because
it's mostly faded.. The interior has the right color.. Light Green

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern) R.I.P.      
              7          1971 Ser IIa 88 Petrol
           #:-}>         1965 Ser IIa 88 Petrol

------------------------------

Subject: D90 costs
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 15:59:55 -0700
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>

> 	So what is the cost of a US spec D90?  According to a post from
> Jim Pappas a while back MSRP for a hardtop variant is about US $32k.
	 [ truncated by lro-lite (was 7 lines)]
> on the D90s in the US--I think they were mostly imported as a way to intro
> the Disco.

Ben,

Actually, I think they are making a bundle if you pay $32k.  I believe the
Dealer Cost is around $24k.  $8000 is a big profit.  A lot of times the
dealer cost is greater than what the dealer actually pays for the vehicle.
A lot of times the dealer gets a kick back from the manufacturer for selling
a vehicle.  I know people who have bought their vehicles for $300 over
dealer cost.  If you could do that with LRNA then you could get a stock
Defender for ~$25,000.

Jason

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Folks,

	In talking with my friend at Rassmussen Land Rover/BMW here in Portland,
the markup on BMW's is currently at 18% over dealer cost; Land Rover products on
the other hand are sold at only an 8% margin over cost. Pretty slim, which helps account
for the lack negotiating on Defender prices. There just isn't much to dicker with
when working from only 8%. I guess we should be grateful they don't add on "additional
dealer margin" like Honda dealers were so fond of doing a few years back.

Rgds
Mike Fredette
Portland, Oregon.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: LRNA reps etc. 
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 17:00:04 -0700
From: Benjamin Allan Smith <bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil>

In message <9504052212.AA09673@yeola.sybgate.sybase.com>you wrote:
 
Jason,

> Actually, I think they are making a bundle if you pay $32k.  I believe the
> Dealer Cost is around $24k.  $8000 is a big profit.  A lot of times the
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> dealer cost.  If you could do that with LRNA then you could get a stock
> Defender for ~$25,000.

	So instead of working backwards, I went out and found the data.
(this was published a month ago by Bill Maloney on this list and noone
(that I recall) contradicted him):

                   Invoice  Retail dealer Profit 
US D-90            $25790   $28650 $2860
Soft Top, Sliding   $1680    $1975  $295
glass door tops,
Rear Safari Cage 
Destination          $625     $625  ----
===========       =======    =====  ====
Total Req'd       $28,000  $31,250 $3155

Options:
Air Conditioning    $1530    $1800  
Black Paint          $250     $300
Fiberglass Top      $1120    $1400
Alloy wheels         $750     $900

	So the tarrif (based on invoice price) is $6447 which is slightly
lower than. the $7 k that I guessed.  All dealers of any type of car
make a killing with the dealer installed options.  According to Jim Pappas
(a LR nut (SIIB FC, D110, andothers) and dealer), LR is making between
$500 and $1000 a unit.  

	Knock off that tarriff you get a base model price of 
roughtly $19,300 without shipping, dealer profit, or any top,cage,etc.

-Benjamin Smith
----------------
 Science Applications International Corporation
 Naval Air Warfare Center, Weapons Division, China Lake
 bens@archimedes.vislab.navy.mil
 1972 Land Rover Series III 88

------------------------------

From: Spenny@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:21:48 -0400
Subject: Re: LRNA Lurker

It would seem to me from a little research that I have done that our lurker
is more than likely a LRNA employee who has a personal internet account and
has joined our little group out of love of the marque, but has hidden his
LRNA affiliation because he does not want to have to:

a) deal with the office on his *own* time. - having to answer LR questions
all the time-remember how much fun taylor became?
**imagine if taylor got your home phone number**

b) become the official voice of LRNA on the net -probably out of his
jurisdiction-definately not a responsibility i'd want.

I do however, think that you should come into the open. 
I also think you should deny or confirm the existance an "IDENTAROVER" book
for US customs.

If this person is trying to keep up on the LR underground (yup, that's us!)
for a sinister reason- the identabook or another reason that is quite
unfortunate, but by staying in the shadows you only convince us that you have
motives that need to hidden

most of the north americans on this list have been rover nuts since before
the return of the LR to our shores, some have been rover nuts since before
you left, we are going to continue to do our rover thing, with or without
LRNA, most of us are completly outside any kind of dealer channel whatsoever,
but if you are going to to lurk and watch us you should at least declare your
intentions and let us know what you are up to.

Rgds...
Spenny

Spencer K. C. Norcross                               Spenny@aol.com
Haverhill, Mass. USA                                   508-521-4093
===--===---===---===---===---===---===---===---===--===
                     1969 IIA SWB - The Wayback Machine
           Now with most of the Federally requred electrics!

------------------------------

From: JAMES_CIRBUS@HPATC2.desk.hp.com
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 22:53:00 -0400
Subject: QUESTIONS ON D-90

Item Subject: FILTERS FOR D-90
GREETINGS,

IT'S TIME FOR D-90 QUESTION AND ANSWER.

1.      HAS ANYONE FOUND A CROSS REFERENCE FOR THE OIL FILTER ON THE
D-90?  I HEARD THAT A FRAM HP-1 WOULD FIT, BUT ITS LENGTH PUTS IT
DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO THE FRAME.

2.      HOW ABOUT EXPERIENCE WITH SUSPENSION CHANGES/UPGRADES?  I HEARD
THAT LANDROVER PUT SOME HEAVY DUTY COILS ON THE BACK OF THE 90 TO AVOID
SOME SORT OF IMPORT TAX.  THESE COILS DETRACT FROM AN OTHERWISE GOOD RAMP
TRAVEL INDEX.  I WAS ALSO TOLD THAT "OLD MAN EMU"(sp), OUT OF AUSTRALIA,
HAS A 2" LIFT THAT IS PRICED AT ABOUT $600.  ANYBODY TRIED IT?
HOW ABOUT REMOVAL OF ANTI-SWAY BARS?

ANY INFO IS MUCH APPRECIATED.  IF IT IS EASER, RESPONSES OR OTHER
CORRESPONDENCE CAN BE SENT TO THE ADDRESS BELOW.

JIM
94 D-90

CIRBUS_JAMES/HPATC2_03@i3125ent.atl.hp.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:02:45 -0700
From: jimmyp@netcom.com (Jimmy Patrick)
Subject: Calendar update

Hello all,

I have received lots of positive feedback about the calendar idea. In
checking out what it would cost, I think we can do it if enough people want
to participate. If we can get rid of 200 at around $10-15 I can break even.

This quote would be for a twelve month calendar, finished size
9.5"x6.5"(folded saddle-stitched), four-colo(u)r plus gloss varnish,
full-bleed photos, basically a really great calendar.

If we could sell the inside cover to Rover's North or someone, we could
each get a calendar for much less.

I have been working on some ideas for the layout with a few photos from the
RoverWeb. If you want to see where I am going with it and offer feedback,
take a look at my web page at:

http://www.netpress.com/jimmyp/
down at the bottom you will see a note that says something like "LROs take
a look at my first comp of the calendar." click that to see a gif of one of
the pages.

If you have some photos to nominate send them to me at:
jimmy patrick
437 university ave.
los gatos, ca 95030  USA

Please send an sase so I can return the photos and also get permission from
the photographer. Any details about the photo can be included and the
photogs name so we can credit the photos.

cheers

jimmy

p.s. maybe the secret LRNA spy can buy the inside back cover as an
advertisement and distribute some of the calendars. Ha!

--
Jimmy Patrick
jimmyp@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: Kd4ylx@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 23:08:20 -0400
Subject: new subscriber/amateur radio

Hello everyone;
I am new to the list and thought it time to introduce myself. I have had a 88
range rover since 1989 and find it to be an outstanding vehicle. My off-road
experiences have normally occurred in North Carolina on the beaches of Cape
Hatteras Island located on the Atlantic Ocean.  My wife and I have had two
Jeeps which have not held up very well against the salt spray & water
encountered while surf fishing there !  I was initially attracted to the
Range Rover because of the aluminum outer body.  Well, as you can imagine it
does very well on the beach, and we have not had any problems with outer body
rust.

I am also interested in amateur radio and ask if there are other members of
this list who have a similar interest and who have installed a hf radio in
their vehicle. In particular, has anyone tried the "QMS" antenna/coupler
offered by SGC located in Bellevue, WA ?
meade stone, jr.
kd4ylx@aol.com 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:29:21 -0700
From: gpool@pacific.pacific.net (Granville B. Pool)
Subject: Snow Run One, Part 3

lro-netters:

I have gotten busy and haven't had time to write Part 4 of the Snow Run One
story but am going to try to put it together tonight.  I have been posting
each part on the Pacific list a day before I put it on the lro list.  I want
those who were involved to see it first.  It's a good thing I have done
that, too, because the participants have pointed out a few errors.  I wanted
time to add this note about the errata and to revise Part 3 before I posted
it to the lro list.  Sorry for the delay.

Part 2 was mostly about the ford of the Rice Fork and, indeed, that was a
day's adventure all in itself.  Hard to believe that it only took a couple
of hours, including damage control and vapor lock. 

Errata in Part 2 pertain to some details of the crossing of the Rice Fork.
It seems that Ben did, after all, make it over under his own power.  He kept
stalling because his engine was running poorly, with a blown head gasket.
But, by fits and starts, he made it.  I saw what I saw of this from the
other side (quite a distance) and my last photo of his effort, also from the
distance, led me to the mistaken impression that Walt was pulling him out.
Maybe he was just getting in postition to do so if required.

Part 3, a quick exit the easy way, via Stonyford--NOT:

Bear Creek is a beautiful spot and worth all the grief of the fording <g>
episode.  If we aren't able to have our base camp there on the planned
weekend at the end of this month, you owe it to youself to go there
sometime.  It is at about 2,100 feet elevation and so had only a few
scattered patches of snow.  Bear Creek, like all the creeks in the area, was
gushing and rushing, swollen with snow-melt.

Walt, John, and I were all expected home Saturday night.  We had had our fun
with the ford and had gotten the overnighters settled into a large campsite
(there are many choice ones at Bear Creek).  Walt and John were ready to
head for home and said so but I guess I didn't think they really meant NOW.
Suddenly, it dawned on me that they had meant it, they had just driven out.
I hated to leave but Walt was the one who knew the way out and I wanted to
follow him.  So I jumped in my pickup and hurried to catch up.  Even
hurrying, I had time to ponder that those who were left were a group of
dedicated enthusiasts who were well rid of the two non-Rovers.

There is actually a bridge across Bear Creek.  After that, the first couple
or three miles were pretty easy, with a pretty good surface and little snow.
But we were steadily climbing and the snow started to get thicker and
thicker on the road.  Pretty soon, not long after I caught up with Walt and
John, it was back to slipping and sliding again.  We took turns getting
sideways and helping each other.  Walt, with somewhat more clearance, was
the one breaking trail.  Eventually it became clear that, if we were to
continue, it would be necessary to put chains on Walt's truck.  I had two
sets of chains along but none that fit my tires. One of the sets I had
happened to fit Walt's 31x10.50x15s and we put them on his front tires.

This helped for a while but we kept climbing and the snow kept getting
deeper and deeper.  Our skid plates were tobogganing badly on the snow
between our wheel tracks.  This was making it very hard to keep control.  We
stopped and studied the maps; Walt walked ahead a little.  It was hard to
face but nonetheless clear that we had to give it up.  I don't remember what
time but it was quite dark by now and we were having to break the trail with
a shovel all the way.  We had to go back the way we came.  We had made five
miles from the camp but if we continued we would have had many difficult
miles still to go.

So we backed down the trail to a wide spot, turned around, and hightailed it
back to camp.  When we showed up back in camp, the campers were just
finishing their dinner (we must have been gone longer than it seemed to
us!!).  Fortunately for us, they had some leftovers.  I was lucky enough to
get a nice piece of open-fire-roasted chicken breast (it was delicious;
thanks guys).  Jason also gave me a tasty can of vegetable-bean soup.  I was
most grateful for the provender (remember my thick meat sandwich went
sailing away down the river, to be followed later by Jim's Filson hat).

While I fixed the soup, Walt and John headed back to that other soup.  Yes,
that's right, they unflinchingly steered directly back to the ford, IN THE
DARK!!  All but Jason and I went along to watch and to lend immoral support.
I gotta say:  Ol' Walt's no slouch; he did it, got back across in the dark
with no more trouble than he had in the daytime.  Not for me, I'll tell you,
not with what I'd gone through in the daylight.  I figured I'd just have to
stay the night, so I asked Walt to stop and call Melanie (my wife) to let
her know (turns out she was not surprised at all).

I squeegeed some more water out of my footwells and looked for my sleeping
bag. Aieeyah!! Suddenly, it dawned on me; the sleeping bag was on the floor
in the back seat (my pickup has an extended cab).  Yes, it got wet.
Fortunately, because it is a mummy bag, crammed into a small stuff sack, it
didn't get all THAT wet, mostly just near the top.  So I got it out and
dried it by the fire and Vance's gas lantern (which he tirelessly held up
for me--what a guy).  I eventually got it dry enough to make do.

I put my old Goretex jacket on the floor of my pickup to put my feet on;
otherwise the toe of the sleeping bag would have gradually gotten soaked.
Since my pickup has reclining seats and plenty of legroom, I thought I'd be
pretty comfortable sleeping there; WRONG!!  I was lucky if I got two hours
sleep that night.  Sleep deprivation was really starting to set in.  And
yet:  I felt great and had a wonderful time, as long as no difficult
thinking was required :^)

Sunday morning I was the first one up (in other words, I couldn't stand it
any longer).  I went out and tried to rekindle the campfire (well, I made a
lot of nice smoke) and took a couple of photos before anyone else got up.
We're an energetic bunch, I'll tell you.  I don't know who could match us
for dawdling in camp.  It was great.  Looked at maps, cleaned up months'
accumulation of yahoo litter and put it in garbage bags, rebuilt Ben's
engine (actually, just the manifold gasket, which didn't make it sound any
better).  [Revision Note:  Ben corrected me on this; he only loosened that
manifolds far enough to determine that the manifold gasket was not blown.
Then he figured it had to be the head gasket.  A compression check confirmed
this by showing only 40# on No. 1 cylinder.  No wonder he had a little
difficulty with the creek crossing.]

Eventually, we got back on the trail and tried again to go out to the east,
over the same trail that Walt, John, and I had failed to conquer the night
before.  With Bruce's D90 in the lead, how could we fail?  Easily, actually.
We got maybe a quarter mile farther than the previous night and found that
even the D90 was tobogganing.  Where's that Unimog?  We walked ahead to the
next intersection of major trails (very difficult going, with the snow about
two feet deep).  The trail on the ridge, where we would turn, if we could
get that far, was not bad at all.  So we went back to the D90 to study the
maps.  We came, I regret to report, to the same conclusion that Walt had the
night before, that it was hopeless.  

It would have taken most of the rest of the day to get everyone just to the
trail intersection.  After that it would be O.K. for a while but then we
would have to cover another north-slope section of several miles at about
4,400 feet elevation.  If we'd had a couple more days, a few more sets of
chains, and a few more cases of Guiness, then maybe.  But as it was, there
was nothing for it but back to the Rice Fork for another friendly tresspass
crossing and, as Jim so well put it, "The devil we know" rather than the
unknown one ahead (and some others which were likely even worse).

In Part 4 we face that devil again...

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 
 Input:  messages 31 lines 1465 [forwarded 71 whitespace 316]
 Output: lines 1293 [content 817  forwarded 63 (cut  8) whitespace 314]


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