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From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re:lro & military lrs
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 10:02:50 GMT

Mike,
I suggest that you,yourself,are guilty of,if not sweeping statements,
at least of a sweeping assumption.That is,that owners/users of the
modern product are in the majority.If you consider that Land Rover 
themselves state that 70% of *all* Land Rovers produced are still in
use,this is patently untrue.Consider also,that Land Rovers advert when
the "Defender" was introduced,made a great deal of the fact that the
old ones were still going strong(I have the full page ad from "The
Indepentant" newspaper,28th Sep 1990 pinned up on my office wall).
Over here,the V8 90 SUV is not considered a serious prospect by many,
I'm afraid,since it would be of limited use on the farm,or as a working
vehicle.As an aside,if you point anyone over here at a "Defender" and
ask him/her what the vehicle is,you will get a pitying look,and the answer
willl be "Its a Land Rover,of course".Same as if you asked him the same
question with a S1 in your sights.
As for ability,of course the coil sprung machine is more agile,it would
be a complete failure otherwise,BUT,when you come to rebush it,I'd rather
have my parts bills than yours!
As for LRO,it is busy ignoring the wants of the owners of older Rovers.
I think we *all* want a fair crack of the whip,but rest assured,its
success or failure depends on its domestic market.And that is us!
Please,please,do not make the assumption that the Land Rover scene
exists as it is seen from the USA.It doesnt.Any more than the reverse
is true from here.The 90 you have is not sold on the home market simply
because there is no demand.And Dixon is right,I'm afraid.Given his
conditions,and ours,the modern chassis just dont last as long.There
is some *very* funny steel about.There are already articles on putting
new rear ends on young 90 and 110 models.Not for nothing was the phrase
"British Racing Rust"coined!If there are two things our climate is
famous for its the ability to rust,and the incidence of arthritis.
Perhaps the latter caused by the attempts to combat the former.
Finally,I have *never* agreed with the maxim "the old giveth way to
the new".There is no reason on this earth why the old cannot co-exist
with the new in perfect harmony.IMO the only time anything ever
invented is obsolete,is when,a)The materials no longer exist to build
it,or,b)Having built it conditions no longer exist where it can be used,
like a windmill on a windless planet.Untill one or the other of these
conditions apply its still viable.
This is *not* intended to be a flame,rather more a bucket of warm water,
but I must say I am,by and large,in sympathy with Dixon's views.
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 07:44:20 -0400
From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Subject: Re: Baloney Meets DaNige

An anonymous person wrote me:

none
So, you finally met Russel... he was a bit quiet at first when we were
off-roading at the OVLR birthday bash but after realizing we were all total
fools, idiots and lunatics he loosened up a bit...
none

It must have been the concussion he got from getting bounced around the 
inside of his host's Land Rover :-).

And Russ wrote:

none
Wow, I just gained nearly 20 lbs and changed my ancestry.  Just yer basic
german mutt with some english, irish, french, and maybe even prussian on
the side.
none

Sorry Russ.  Whenever I meet someone who is built like me, if the topic of 
weight comes up, they invariably turn out to be 20 lbs heavier.  We appear to 
be the exact same weight.

---------------------------------------------

Just to make sure this message is not just Banter...

This past weekend I replaced the hardtop on my 88.  I had separated the top 
skin from the side panels when I removed it last spring for ease of removal 
with a minimum of people and storage reasons.  I must admit it is a bit of a 
hassle getting everything lined up.  I can't decide if it was worth the 
effort to break it down, then reassemble.  

One thing I discovered this summer when visiting Rich Ziegler in VT was that 
the brackets on my windshield were bent, shifting the windshield a full 1" to 
the left.  I rebent the brackets bringing it almost back to center and now 
the window seals fit much better.

After I removed the interior rear view mirror, I thought about replacing it 
with a new one as the reflective backing was flaking on the inside.  My 
inadvertantly sitting on it breaking the glass made the decision a lot easier 
(No Steve, I didn't get any glass in the a..).  This fall the removal seemed 
to take a lot longer than usual, but then it could be due to the late start 
in the day after doing my folk's Volvo's water pump & timing belt.  What a 
long day.

The new window tracks were a pleasure to look at (no more green primortial 
dried soup locking the windows in place) and made me mind the return of 
the hard top a little less.  

Re: Ben Smith:

I saw his dad yesterday and Ben made it out to CA in 3 days.  It looks like 
he's settled on a 2 bedroom with 2 car garage for $475/mo (untouchable in 
these parts for less than $1100).  He's in orientation training in San Diego 
now and we should be hearing from him again shortly.  Oh, his starter is 
working again.  I think it may be due to the low humidity out there allowing 
the armature to dry out.  Ben thought it might be due to the embarrassment his 
Rover suffered bein towed out there causing it to repair itself.

Enough Baloney for now

maloney@wings.attmail.com

------------------------------

Subject: Re: lro & new lrs 
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 07:41:08 -0700
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>

Mike,
	Oh so you want some too eh? Just kidiing, flames are
off, but I would like to splain a few points.

>I suggest that you,yourself,are guilty of,if not sweeping statements,
>at least of a sweeping assumption.

	Of course I am, but I believe in demonstrating the absurd by
being absurd. And Dixon's statement "So we will see more Defender, Disco, 
Range Rover shit.  How nice. I am sure the yuppies will be delighted not 
to read about old junkers still on the road." , which seems to imply that
the newer vehicles are somehow less than true Land Rovers and their owners
are simply image seeking yuppies, is ABSURD! And his statment
that "I wouldn't tell them that I'll have more fun that the average 90
owner." , that he and owners of Series vehicles somehow had a monopoly
on fun is also a bit silly.
	As for the V8 Defenders in the homeland, I'm in agreement with
you, no market for it at the price of petrol you folks are forced to pay.
But in the US, if you want a Defender, you can have any engine you want, 
as long as it's a V8. If the Tdi were available it would sell, unfortunately,
it appears that it never will make it to these shores thanks to the clean
air folk.
	As I said at the end of my little diatribe, I believe that there is
PLENTY of room for all of us out there, both the Series folk and the newer
vehicle owners. I love the older trucks, as I said, and love reading about 
them, and will own another one. I just felt it a bit narrow to suggest that
we're a cut below a true Land Rover owner. I also didn't mean to imply, as
Russell pointed out, that the only reason people buy Series vehicles is that
they can't afford the new ones. Sorry to give that impression.
	I realize that LRO is aimed at the domestic UK market, the fact that 
there there are a few hundred, maybe a thousand tops, international subscribers
is, I'm sure, totally incedental to them. They are, I agree, cutting their own
throats by ignoring the older trucks, but as I said, it would appear that the
majority of new Land Rover OWNERS are buying newer rather than Series vehicles.
I stand corrected if untrue, but it looks like the Series vehicles TEND I say
TEND to circulated amongst those that have already owned them. At least that is
mostly the case here. Again I stand corrected if off base.
	Didn't mean to upset you old man, terribly sorry, a thousand pardons.
But, I'm just as much a LAND ROVER OWNER with a 94 DEFENDER as any with a 54
SERIES l. And DAMN PROUD of it.
					semi-humbly yours
					Mike Fredette
					 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:56:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven M Denis  <denis@oswego.Oswego.EDU>
Subject: Rangey diffs.....

Here's one for the books......
Unless we have five front diffs for a Range rover,we have discovered a 
problem when converting a series 2a to 3.54 final drives.....the Rangey 
diffs fit the 2-2a housings and axels as we all know....but the fill plug 
on the rear of a Rangey must be in the axle like the front of a 2a.....if 
you fit the 3.54 to the rear of a 2a...you ain't got no fill plug.....ooops!
we filled it through the breather with the specified amount of 
oil.....everything will be fine if the thing dosen't leak......are we 
seeing a problem developing here?.....I will weld a fitting on the 
housing to fill and check the lube.....but is there a better way to do 
this?...I thought about using the old 4.7 carrier and seting up the 
3.54's in that....
Also...why no saftey wires on the rangey diffs? is it that they are not 
going to be used off road  and they dont need to worry about getting back 
out?   sigh....I'm putting a 3.54 Sailsbury in the back of the 109 and 
that *has* a fill plug....but if I ever want to do a rover axle...I'd 
like  to have a better way to do it than welding etc

steve.......

"HEY! NICE JEEP,MISTER!"..........."Look,Kid,it's a ..Oh never mind..."

"NOTAJEEP"-1967 109 Station Wagon          Steven M. Denis
"        "-1957 107 Station Wagon          PO Box 61
"        "-1964 109 Pickup                 Erieville,New York USA
"        "_1967 109 NADA SW                13061

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 08:16:09 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: Disco add-on's et al.....

FROM:  David Brown                          Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB204 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: Disco add-on's et al.....
Peter,

I got my Discovery with the dealer added rino bars and rear lamp guards.
The dealer price for the rino bars was $1050 US. (Don't recall on the
rear lens guards.) The CD player is around $800-$850 US but if you go to
the parts department you can get it for $700 and change. All the wiring
is already under the drivers seat, so installation is a VERY simple job.
I've also heard that one of the after market companies sells the CD
player for around $500, so that's what I'll do. I considered putting an
after market CD player in for around $400 but really don't want to have
a stupid remote control to operate it with, and don't want to try to
find a location to mount the silly remote control pick-up part.

I was not wanting to get the rino bars etc from the dealer, but they had
already installed them, and wouldn't take them off since they had to
drill holes, and cut the front spoiler to fit it. I *was* going to get
one from Atlantic British for around $400 but... oh well... One thing to
be aware of, is to make sure the rino bars are "air bag certified". Now,
I've CAREFULLY examined the rino bars, and can someone please tell me
what on earth makes this "air bag certified"? It doesn't appear to be
ANY different from ANY other I've EVER seen!!! It bolts to the frame
with 4 bolts, ... that's it!!! Nothing special that I could tell!

Now... Regarding flame wars! Let's NOT! I'm sure that many rovers will
never see dirt, but I doubt that this would apply to anyone on this
list. As for me, I've had my disco for 19 days, have off-roaded several
times, have nice "desert brush pin stripes" on both sides, and a
steering dampener that's all dented up! I really should at least make the
first payment before "trashing out" my truck, but after all, I didn't
buy it just for it's good looks in my driveway!

Enough said!!! Let's keep the arena free of flames! (Unless it pertains
to spark plugs or fire extinguishers. ;) )

#=====#                  Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|___|__\___              can change the world... indeed, it's the only
|   |   |  |             thing that ever has.
""O""""""O""                                            -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 10:15:54 MDT
From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL )

Hey Gang!

Real funny thing happen last night.  Got finished for the night
on the engine rebuild.  Ran out of things in paper bags to put back
on the engine.  Plus Northern Exposure was due on the TV.  But to
my horror it was pre-empted.  So the sig othr was doing some surfing
with the remote and I saw this show about digging old stuff out of the
ground.  Made her stop and here was this Rover in the dirt with some
guy with a clip board, a weird hat and what looked like fairly kobby
knees, hanging out around the front bumper.  Lost all track of what
the host was saying.  Say, that was a pretty nice Rover!! :~)  Sorry
but I had a hard time with the hat.  Not exactly Cav.

Ok this is the real stuff.  The engine is ready to go back in the truck.
Any hints or helps?  Maybe something I haven't thought of or not.  Put
so much time into this engine I don't want to blow it this late in the game.
Anything will help.  Getting the rebuild paranoia.

Roy - Rovers in the Rockies - Almost on the road again. 

------------------------------

From: Brian_Foster_at_ASTISHR@ccmailsmtp.ast.com
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 09:31:20 PST
Subject: Hollister Hills & So. Cal. LROs?

Dear Morgan-
Noticed your posting about Hollister Hills and wondered where this 
haven is?!  I am in Southern CA and have not seen any postings from 
down this way yet, but I'd like to see our 88 R/R do more than look 
good on the street.

Our 4-wheeling experience started with a 3-day Jeep trip (sin, 
blasphemy...) near Ouray, Colorado and we were hooked.  My SO and I 
spent a 5K mile, 4X4-summer across Colorado to Wyoming in a 92 Bronco 
which only re-inforced the madness. But, we decided that 4-doors made 
more sense.  

The sport utility market was disappointing - obviously designed for 
wanna bes and not for serious off-road w/o additional expense. Looked 
seriously at a Disco  and was waiting for the right color/pkg combo 
when the SO anounced that the first in our family is on the way and it 
was time to economize.  

The 88 R/R has over 100K mi, and cost $1K in repairs within 2 weeks of 
purchase, but all seems well now. So here we are with a serious 
off-road vehicle and nobody to play with?!  We are very active in the 
BMW club (beginning SCCA in a 2002 and an Isetta under restoration), 
but would like to get a little active with other LROs in the area.  
The new L/R dealer in Mission Viejo has promised a training drive in 
the near future, but we would like to go out with others that don't 
mind a few scratches or breaking out the wench.  Help?! Contact me 
direct at brian.foster@ast.com.
TIA, Brian.

------------------------------

From: Russell Burns <burns@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: hard top for D90
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 9:43:10 PDT

none
And someone doubted that you were a real rover owner?????
Hard to believe.

> Russell,
> to be the case. I've just decided to wait till the bloody hardtop 
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 10 lines)]
> 						Rgds
> 						Mike Fredette

------------------------------

Subject: Re:lro & military lrs 
From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 10:27:19 -0500

Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com> writes:

>   OK, knucklehead the gloves are off and the flame thrower is on full.

        Finally, something fun & interesting to participate in... :-)

> Ya know jealousy is a terrible thing, it makes complete jerks of seemingly
> normal Land Rover enthusiasts. I sold my Ser lll 88 and my Ser ll 109 to buy
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
> than on your earth pig thing and there is no reason not to expect it to last
> as long as any other Land Rover ever made.

        I am not jealous of the 90's, if I really wanted one I would go out
        and buy one.  However, that will wait until I can pick up a used one
        sometime in the future when they have depreciated to a reasonable
        level.  Frankly I will probably pick up a 101 FC first, but that is
        another matter.

        As for longevity, we will have to wait on that one.  I first have
        to organise the green beasties' (a 1964 109" Station Wagon)
        thirtieth birthday party...

        Otherwise, the late Series III's have proven to have inadequate
        frames.  Whatever steel Land Rover used at the time is not proving
        to be as durable as the earlier vehicles.  I look at the 110's and
        see rust marks coming from under, what I had thought, was the
        galvanized trim pieces.  A few questions later I found that they
        were no longer galvanised but just painted and attached to the
        aluminium skin.  I am also told from several sources that the doors
        are put together and then painted in the manufacturing process.
        This doesn't sound like a process that will slow galvanic action
        when compared to how they used to build the vehicles.  Put this
        together and I think that there might be a slight problem with the
        later vehicles lasting as long as the earlier ones.  Assuming they
        do, it may prove to carry a slightly higher cost than keeping my
        thirty year old vehicles (on average) going.  I seem to recall Land
        Rover advertising from the early 80's stating that 70% of all
        previously built Land Rovers were still on the road.  How about we
        wait ten years and then get the numbers, with a distribution across
        the various Series and Defenders of course.

        The drivetrain?  Well, the Rover V8 is a very nice engine, more
        powerful et cetera, but it is a lot more expensive to maintain, in
        fact the whole vehicle is more expensive to maintain.  Your coil
        springs are *very* nice.  To nice according to the British Army
        who found that the ride was so nice and comfortable that the troops
        would go too fast and damage the vehicle off-road.  They didn't
        have that problem with the Lightweights of Series Land Rovers in
        their possession.  I would conclude that it is going to cost me
        about $80 a corner (new springs, u-bolts, nuts et cetera) to
        replace the springs on the 1962 88" hard top (the "little earth
        pig" as it has been named by others).  Care to tell me what it is
        going to cost you when you have to do it in the future?

> The fact that some (most) can't af one is irrelevant. As for myself and the
> other two D90 owners I know here in Portland, we use ours as God intended,
> in the muck. I didn't buy the thing to look at it in the garage and wipe it
> with a diaper, I use it.

        You are one of the first that I have heard that does.  All the power
        to you, it is nice to hear this.  My limited experience has been the
        opposite.  However, I would ask, unlike most on the list, and just
        about all Land Rover owners I do know of, can you afford to wrap it
        around a tree or sink it by mistake?  Assuming you can, and can afford
        the initial cost, insurance et cetera, you are in a different class
        than the majority of Land Rover owners over here, including myself
        who would rather spread his meagre assets amongst a number of
        Series Land Rovers and some Austin Mini's.  I don't see the point
        of sinking such worth into just one vehicle.

> And it goes a l farther, and with less fuss, than any of the older Land
> Rovers around here.

        Further, maybe, though I doubt it.  Less fuss, sure, but then again it
        is horses for courses.  I'd rather have the fuss and ensuing enjoyment
        going there.

> I would put it up against any Series truck around in any terrain or mud hole
> you pick and I'll go farther.

        Being on the other side of the continent, I doubt this will happen.
        However, I would certainly be game to try.  In fact I can think of
        quite a few people that would also come along to try with me.  I
        would also point out that you could have a Hummer, International
        Scout, or any other vehicle for that matter.  The quality of the
        vehicle can not make up for experience driving off-road.  I have
        seen a Series I go through the mire a lot faster and less painfully
        than the rest of the vehicles in attendance because the driver knew
        what he was doing.  All you are doing here is staying that not only
        do you have a better vehicle than most, but that you are also a much
        better off-road driver.  Fine...

> That's why Land Rover makes D90's and not Series trucks anymore, because thay
> are better.

        Wrong.  Market forces decided what was to be produced.  Toyota and
        the rest were offering V8's and the like.  The public wanted these,
        and not the four banger.  Just because something is newer doesn't
        necessarily mean it is better.  There are as many examples one way
        as the other from automobiles to computer chips.  Using your logic
        here, the Mini Clubman was better than the Cooper S. Which of these
        two vehicles does everyone want.  Why did Intel come out with
        the 80486DX chip and then follow it with the 80486SX chip?  The
        SX is better?  Not a chance.  Marketing all the way.

        We are getting the V8 in North America because the Yanks like V8's.
        Land Rover has lost a number of potential Defender customers in
        Canada because they want the TDi and not the petrol monster.
        Marketing has decided this and when the revolution comes, they are
        the first against the wall...  Face it, it is a silly statement.

> Sure they can't go in water as deep an old Series diesel, but how often
> is that really the case, and it's still hard on the vehicle.

        Actually it can be quite common.  More often than not in the water
        it is flowing out both sides of the bonnet and over the wings like
        twin waterfalls.  Not just me either.  And yes, it hard on the
        vehicle, but then again the older vehicles are easier to fix &
        you learn a lot fixing it from the last problem.

        Oh yeah, I should add the motto "Shit Happens" to "how often
        is that really the case".  I have found that it is more true
        than you may believe.  (Its also pretty fun watching the bow
        wave break over the windscreen, praying fervently that this
        pond will get shallower before you are in real deep shit.  Ask
        Russell if he enjoyed trolling from a military 109 at the OVLR
        Birthday Party.  Water is fun... :-))

> Look at all the people on the net constantly fixing starters generators/
> alternators that have been drowned in mud too many times. And of course
> the TDi Defenders can go anywhere the Series trucks can, I was referencing
> the petrol N.A. spec D90's

        I admit I am always fixing these things.  Seems they get plugged
        with mud, but it take little time to pull them off and clean them
        out.  Yes, the TDi will go many places and is a very niceengine.
        I wouldn't mind one of those in my IIA.  But if you went in water
        all the time you would have the same problems as us, so I fail
        to see your point here.

>    I'm sure there are plenty of yuppie D90 and Discovery owners whose trucks
> will never see dirt under the tires, but I would venture that none who are on
> list fall into that catagory. And the same holds true for the Range Rover fol
> this list, most use thier rigs regularly off road.

        Possibly true, though we don't hear that much from them.  It would
        be nice to hear about some of the other goings on on the list.

>   I enjoyed working on my old rig, and I'll probably buy another just to have
> something to tinker with,as that is a major fun part of owning an older one,
> There isn't much of that on the new ones.

        And yet above you knock those of us who always have to fix them and
        enjoy doing so.

>   As for LRO, I agree they suck. But, the market has changed, out with the old
> the new and all that crap. They have to cater to the majority, and the majori
> case are those that own the newer vehicles. That's who the advertisers target
> no mistake, they are the ones paying the bills keeping the rag afloat, not us

        The Defender, Disco, RR readers have the cash to buy a lot of the
        products advertised in LRO.  A good number of ads are aimed at
        brush bars and all sorts of add on stuff, while I used to be more
        interested in the Craddocks, Merseyside, Paddocks, etc parts price
        lists.  You are right, they are targetting their audience and
        frankly I am not in it, so why should I continue to support the
        magazine from a readers view?  Remember, this thing costs over
        Cdn$100 a year to receive (late).  Could this not be better spent
        on something more like what LRO used to be like, or some needed
        parts?

> Yeah the Series folk are dropping off, but they make up for it with new Defen

        Somehow I don't think so.  There are a lot of Series out there.  They
        are just getting ignored by LRO.

> As for tech articles, at this point there is enough material out there in the
> books and back issues of the magazine fix most anything on the Series vehicle
> old ground explaining how to's when it's already been covered in many places

        This is fine for you or I, who both have a rather large assortment
        of manuals, literature, back issues of magazines and knowledge.  But
        for the newer owner they don't have this luxury.  In fact I wouldn't
        limit to just the newer owner.  To use your logic, we don't even
        need any technical articles.  Just get a copy of the factory
        manual and you are off.

        For example, its true that it gets boring to write the same series
        of technical articles on a five year rotation, but the Land Rover
        went negative earth in 1968.  Why twenty six years later do I still
        get people asking me how to change from positive to negative (after
        I have told them not to, but that is another story)? It has been in
        magazines for years, yet in my mind there seems to be a desire for
        some to know.   Someone does, and it sells magazines.  If you know
        about the techie stuff, turn the page, but at least LRO should give
        you the option to turn that page.

>    Watch those sweeping statements, many on this list are part of them. I enjo
> reading about old Rover's and new ones. I think there is room enough for all

        Sweeping statements serve several purposes...

> Flame off.

        No need.  The debate is rather enjoyable...  :-)

        Rgds,

        Dixon

        PS 212 lines... :-)  Thx, I haven't had the opportunity for a while.

--
dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca
FourFold Symmetry,            |    Ottawa Valley Land Rovers
Nepean, Ontario, Canada       |    1016 Normandy Crescent, Nepean
(OVLR's InterNet site)        |    Ontario, Canada, K2C 0L4

------------------------------

From: Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Hollister Hills & So. Cal. LROs?
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 17:04:23 GMT

Breaking out the *what*?Somehow,I dont think you've heard
the last of that........
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

From: "John R. Benham" <BENHAM@WFOCLAN.USBM.GOV>
Date:          Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:22:31 +1100
Subject:       Tire Warning!

Dear LRO's

    For the last ten days, I was in Arizona near Prescott doing some 
water sampling and evaluating old abandoned mines.  Unfortunately, I 
did not have my Land Rover.  I was supplied with a Chevy Blazer (SWB) 
with General Grabber tires.  Toward the end of one days work, we had 
a flat tire due to a sidewall rock cut from a rough 4x4 road.  We 
changed the tire and opted to continue to our final destination of 
only .5 mile away.  After working the last site, we turned the Blazer 
around only to have another sideway cut flat tire (the brand new 
spare we had just put on)!  Fortunately, we found help via a 
radio tied in to the local sheriff's office.  At 10PM, a rescurer 
brought us two new tires on rims to get us out!
    I have used B.F. Goodrich T/A radials and Michelin X's on my Land 
Rover and never had a problem such as this!  General should be 
ashamed of putting such a tire on the market especially for off-road 
vehicles!

Back safe from Arizona,
John R. Benham - Editor
N.3616 Dowdy Road                 `The Rover Runner'
Spokane, WA  99204  USA               ______
                                     |______\_____
1968 88 IIA Marine Blue      *---   [|_/-\____/-\_|}
  The `BWANA' Mobile           *---    (O)    (O)        

509.747.0692 (H); 509.353.2700 (W); E-Mail: benham@wfoclan.usbm.gov

------------------------------

From: "John R. Benham" <BENHAM@WFOCLAN.USBM.GOV>
Date:          Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:24:57 +1100
Subject:       Fuel Injection for the 2.25L

Dear LRO's

    Does anyone know of a head conversion for the 2.25L petro to 
allow for fuel injection?

    This would be an obvious solution for the Land Rovers poor fuel 
economy and emmission problems.

Later,

John R. Benham - Editor
N.3616 Dowdy Road                 `The Rover Runner'
Spokane, WA  99204  USA               ______
                                     |______\_____
1968 88 IIA Marine Blue      *---   [|_/-\____/-\_|}
  The `BWANA' Mobile           *---    (O)    (O)        

509.747.0692 (H); 509.353.2700 (W); E-Mail: benham@wfoclan.usbm.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:28:46 -0400
From: maloney@wings.attmail.com (maloney)
Subject: Roy & His Lump

Roy writes:    

none
So the sig othr was doing some surfing with the remote and I saw this show 
about digging old stuff out of the ground.  Made her stop and here was this 
Rover in the dirt with some guy with a clip board, a weird hat and what looked 
like fairly kobby knees, hanging out around the front bumper. 
none

Clip board, a weird hat and what looked like fairly kobby knees???  Sounds 
like Sandy Grice and his VirginRover.  If his knees were wobbly too it was 
probably right after the Mid Atlantic meet when he was celebrating :-).  

none
Ok this is the real stuff.  The engine is ready to go back in the truck.
Any hints or helps?  Maybe something I haven't thought of or not.  Put
so much time into this engine I don't want to blow it this late in the game.
Anything will help.  Getting the rebuild paranoia.
none

Take your time.  Replace any suspect brake/clutch lines while you're there.  
Once you have it in and have set the timing and are ready to start, pull the 
plugs, shoot some W-D40 or some other slippery stuff in the cylinders, and 
crank the engine with the starter (put the battery on charger ahead of time) 
until you have oil pressure (be sure to ground the high tension lead from the 
coil while doing this).  This will be much kinder to your bearings on initial 
start up.

Good Luck!

Bill

maloney@wings.attmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 11:58:14 MDT
From: rhcaldw@nma.mnet.uswest.com ( ROY CALDWELL )
Subject: Spin-on Oil Filter

Gang,

Who has a good source for the spin-on oil filter
adapter.  I had the info at one time but my desk
ate it.  That thing has a great big hunger for paper
I need to keep.  So any info would be appreciated.

Roy - Rovers in the Rockies -Back on the road again, soon! 

------------------------------

From: Brian_Foster_at_ASTISHR@ccmailsmtp.ast.com
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 11:06:33 PST
Subject: Re[2]: Hollister Hills & So. Cal. LROs?

Had me scared there for a moment!  I had to go back and re-read my 
message to find out what you meant.  I know I missed something there.  
Am I to assume that LROs don't need winches?  Oh... NO! I didn't mean 
*wench* -- I meant winch.  The spell check missed that one -- I need a 
grammer check!  STOP sending me comments, my SO will wonder who I am 
talking about it! 8-O
Brian

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Hollister Hills & So. Cal. LROs?
Author:  Mike Rooth <M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk> at Internet
Date:    10/25/94 5:04 PM
Breaking out the *what*?Somehow,I dont think you've heard 
the last of that........
Cheers
Mike Rooth

------------------------------

Subject: Re: lro & military lrs and a question 
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:44:51 -0700
From: Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com>

Dixon, 
	Yikes, you scared me a second there with your point about 
maintenance costs on the Defender vs Series.

	I would conclude that it is going to cost me
        about $80 a corner (new springs, u-bolts, nuts et cetera) to
        replace the springs on the 1962 88" hard top

	So I pulled out my trusty Rovers North 1994 catalog to compare
apples to apples. Now don't give me any guff about ordering from the 
UK, this just a quickie "smart shopper" comparison.
	Ok. for the front corner of an 88 we get the following:
	1 spring pack at $115 USD per
	2 U bolts at $10 per for a total of $20
	4 bushings 2per spring and 2 for frame at $4.25, total $17
   	which gives us a grand total at $152 US per corner front.(rear is more
	as is any thing for a 109 but we'll stick with short wheel base) 

	Now for the front corner of a Defender
	1 coil spring at $50
	2 panhard rod bushings at $6.50 for a total of $13
	1 radius arm bushing at $23
	2 radius arm to chassis bushings at $4 for a total of $8
	which gives us a grand total of......$94 US.....$58 cheaper than a Series.

	HMMMmmmmm.OK the starter $199 for a petrol 88,$530 for a diesel, $600
	for the Defender. OK ya got me there, though I seem to recall you have a diesel
	or two.
	OK alternator, or generator as the case may be:$185 for the 88, $500 for the
	Defender. Gosh ya got me there too. But hey, mine is new so it should hopefully
	be a while to replace those items, being made by Lucas nowithstanding.

No big deal just interesting that some things are worse (ok a lot worse) and some 
things are better price wise Defender to Series. But come clean here, if you were
offered a choice between an 88 and a Defender, free of charge, which would you take?

	As an aside, does anyone out there have the address and or phone # to the
folks at Koenig. I understand they are still in bussiness and I need the drive dog for
one of their PTO winches.
							See ya
							Mike Fredette

------------------------------

From: Mr Ian Stuart <IAN@lab0.vet.edinburgh.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:10:25 +0000
Subject: Re: Flame wars & getting dirty

> Now... Regarding flame wars! Let's NOT! I'm sure that many rovers will
> never see dirt, but I doubt that this would apply to anyone on this
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 7 lines)]
> first payment before "trashing out" my truck, but after all, I didn't
> buy it just for it's good looks in my driveway!
Hell guys (and guyesses)! Who need a Land Rover to get dirty?

I only need THINK about opening the bonnet of a car to get covered in
dirt from head to foot -- what's called a magnetic person ;-)

     ----** Ian Stuart (Computing Officer)        +44 31 650 6205
Royal (Dick) School of Veterinary Studies, Edinburgh University. 
WWW sites: Work -- http://www.vet.ed.ac.uk/       
           Play -- http://tardis.ed.ac.uk/~ian/
#======================================================================#
I'm not a computing nerd, I'm a computing geek.   |Land Rover owners do
Geeks are much higher up the evolutionary chain.  |  it in the mud.

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 25 Oct 94 15:33:36 EDT
From: Brian Willoughby <BAWILL01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Tootsie Toy Land-Rovers

Does anyone on the list have a spare Tootsie Land-Rover 109"?  This model
was released during the late 1960's and based upon a 109" Station Wagon.
The body is coloured a bright green and all of the windows except the front
doors and windscreen are blanked-off with zinc.  It measures about two
inches in length and had a trailer hitch as I recall.  I had at least two
as a kid and both were stolen by a neighbour kid.  (Well, at least he had
good taste!)  It is valued at about $2-$3 in mint condition according to
"Collectable Toys."  Anyone who has one for sale at a reasonable price can
contact me directly.  Thanks.
Brian Willoughby     1960 Series II 88" Station Wagon
bawill01@ukcc.uky.edu

------------------------------

Subject: Babes that like Land Rovers?
From: dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (Dale Desprey)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 13:02:06 -0500

Land  Rovers as a Babe Magnet?  Where do you meet women that like Land 
Rovers Russ and Bill.   I met a lady and when I showed her my Land Rover. 
she asked " Why did you put your spare tire on your hood."  "It came that 
way", I retorted.  "No it didn't, Jeeps have them on the back."  Things 
got worse when she asked, "Is it certified, does it run?"  At this point 
I decided against offering her a ride in it,  especially when it would 
almost start and kill the battery, just to spite me.  I did not want to 
hear any more disparaging remarks.   I forgot to mention that she didn't 
like the idea of more leaves on the inside than the outside.  I had 
parked topless under a tree for a week, during the transition from 
soft top to hard top.  Just got the top on that morning.  And NO 
SEATBELTS! 

Oh well.

--
Dale Desprey, dd@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca
FourFold Symmetry,            |    Ottawa Valley Land Rovers
Nepean, Ontario, Canada       |    1016 Normandy Crescent, Nepean
(OVLR's InterNet site)        |    Ontario, Canada, K2C 0L4

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 13:07:49 -0800
From: jory@MIT.EDU (jory bell)
Subject: Re: Tire Warning!

For what it's worth, I have had General Grabbers (for about 5 years now) on
my 88 without incident (and some amout of tire torture).

-jory

ps: fuel injection for a 2.25 would be intersting, as long as I could
(relatively easily) revert to the carb when the electronics were unhappy!

>Dear LRO's
>    For the last ten days, I was in Arizona near Prescott doing some
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 27 lines)]
>  The `BWANA' Mobile           *---    (O)    (O)
>509.747.0692 (H); 509.353.2700 (W); E-Mail: benham@wfoclan.usbm.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 13:33:07 MST
From: DEBROWN@SRP.GOV
Subject: GIF TRANSLATION HELP.

FROM:  David Brown                          Internet: debrown@srp.gov
       Computer Graphics Specialist * Mapping Services & Engr Graphics
       PAB204 (602)236-3544 -  Pager:6486 External (602)275-2508 #6486
SUBJECT: GIF TRANSLATION HELP.
Could someone in "internet world" please help me with a GIF file? I need
to have a GIF file converted from GIF89A format to GIF87A format. I
realize that this is from a newer format to an older one, but this is
what I need done. I don't have access to any tools that would do this.

If you can, the file can be gotten by ftp at: ftp.std.com in directory
/pub/rparker/95DISC.GIF

If you could do this for me I'd REALLY appreciate it!!! e-mail me if you
can, and I'll let you know an ftp address that you can send it to, or
let me know an ftp address that I can get it from.

MANY thanks to who ever can help me with this. Sorry for the bandwidth,
but it IS offroad related, it's a GIF of a Land Rover Discovery
traversing a river.

#=====#                  Never doubt that a small group of individuals
|___|__\___              can change the world... indeed, it's the only
|   |   |  |             thing that ever has.
""O""""""O""                                            -Margaret Mead

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:36:46 -0700
From: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: Poster Child

Morgan,

Good to see you active on the 'net:

>Luke (S.F. lad, '72 ser III) and I went down to Hollister Hills off-road
>park to Rover it up.  Nice place, lots of trails;  all the trails
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 6 lines)]
>cruising some trecherous terrain:  steep hill climbs with axle 
>twisters up the #$*?!.  I've never seen an 88" lift a tire before!

Well, it sure sounds like fun!  I like the idea of the ski-trail sign 
postings; do they have any double-diamonds?  If so, I'll have to find my way 
down there, one of these days.  

For those of you who don't know about them, there a two public off-road 
vehicle parks in my area.  

Just outside of Ukiah, on BLM land, there is the Cow Mountain ORV use area 
(better known locally as "Red Mountain"), with many square miles of 
easy-to-nasty trails for 4x4s, four-wheelers, and motorcycles.  And talk 
about not having ever before seen an 88 lift a wheel?  I can show you a 
trail where I had my left front tire a good foot or so off the ground, while 
both differentials were digging a new rut!  The hill I was climbing was so 
steep that I could hardly stand up on it, yet I got stuck enough trying to 
cross over a very deep rut that I was spinning and going nowhere while 
trying to BACK DOWN!  I eventually did succeed in climbing that hill in my 
Land-Rover.  On another outing, my son and I and two other youngsters on 
motorcycles were out that way. I took them to the trail and no one was up to 
trying it on dirt bikes!  (Well, maybe my son, Bennett could have climbed it...)

Another, in Lake County, is at Middle Creek, north of the town of Upper 
Lake, in Mendocino National Forest.  I have camped there, at the begining of 
a Land-Rover excursion (7 Land-Rovers, three days) into the national forest, 
but have not gotten around to trying the trails.  

Both areas have camping facilities.  Early in the spring, when the ground is 
still a little gooey, I'd like to organize a weekend at one of these places, 
if anyone would be interested.  Could be some good camping, conveviality, 
jawing, cruising the outback, and--for those of us gonzo types--gnarly 
four-wheeling.  Maybe I'll try out those SuperSwamperTSLs...

>Anyway, my '69 rover has the Scotty conversion to a Chevy 250ci
>I6.  The major modification in this conversion is with the cooling 
>system.  The radiator is a big cross flow jobber moved up to the 
>front panel, with a remote fan.  

Wish I had known that you had that conversion in when I saw your Rover at 
Hayward.  I would have certainly wanted to have a look.  The 250s I have 
seen installed in 88s were certainly tight fits.  An appealing idea, though. 
 Good, tough, cheap engine, very much in the Land-Rover spirit, as far as I 
am concerned.  I once had a a 109 which had a Chevy 235 and it sure made the 
difference!

Regards, Granville
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[ Granville Pool (Redwood Valley, CA) Appraiser, R/W Agent, LR aficionado ]
[ e-mail: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net ** Ph:(707)485-7220 H,(707)463-4265 W ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:37:27 -0700
From: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net (Granville Pool)
Subject: Re:lro & flames

Mike Fredette screams:
>Dixon slimes,
>>	 So we will see more Defender, Disco, Range Rover shit.  How nice.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 18 lines)]
>Ya know jealousy is a terrible thing, it makes complete jerks of seemingly
>normal Land Rover enthusiasts. 
[snip-snip-snip]
>Watch those sweeping statements, many on this list are part of them. I enjoy
>reading about old Rover's and new ones. I think there is room enough for 
all off us here.
>Flame off.							
>reading about old Rover's and new ones. I think there is room enough for 
Well, Mike, Dixon shoor knows how to push your button.  John Brabyn must 
have been away from his computer or he'd surely have said something, too.  
There is a lot to what you are saying.  I love the old Land-Rovers but the 
only thing stopping me from buying a new one(s) is the price.  I would like 
very much to have a Defender 90, a 110, a Discovery, and a couple of Range 
Rovers.  But I sure don't begrudge those who do (at least those who 
understand their heritage). I kind of like their company; maybe some of it 
will rub off...

Another aspect that we all must realize, in critiquing LRO, is that it IS a 
British magazine and, while I'm sure it would like to entertain all the 
Land-Rover enthusiasts of the world, its primary audience is in the U.K. and 
increasingly among the owners of the plentiful-in-the-UK newer rigs.  They 
need to not forget the rest, of course.  And I'm not defending LRO; I'm 
disgusted with it for its lack of serious content, not its bias toward newer 
rigs.  In fact, that aspect was very important to me when we couldn't get 
the newer ones here; I wanted to keep up.  And, in any case, like 
Land-Rover, the magazine has to keep up.  I'd like to see a lot more about 
where the industry and particulary the Land-Rover company is heading and, 
indeed, ought to be heading...

What I want to see more of is substance, details, specifications, opinion, 
objective test results, including those comparing Land-Rovers with other 
makes. LRW is maybe a little better, but not nearly good enough.  I want to 
see more about hybrid specials and other creative stuff.  Less about every 
slight combination and permutation of police and ambulance vehicles.  I 
enjoy the travel articles, but would like them to have more emphasis on the 
off-road adventure aspect.

And, yes, I love the ads, especially the private ads.  That's the stuff 
dreams are made of!  What I'd really like to see:  The classified ads posted 
on the internet (WWW site, with photos) as soon as they are received.  That 
way those of us in the rest of the world would have just as good a crack at 
the good deals as those in the U.K. (well, sort of; we can't as easily go 
and look at them).  As it is now, if I wanted to jump at an ad for some 
really bitchin' V-8 coiler trials special at an unbelievably low price, I 
might as well not bother, as some bloke in the U.K. will have long snatched 
it up.

Well, there, I've said enuff...
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[ Granville Pool (Redwood Valley, CA) Appraiser, R/W Agent, LR aficionado ]
[ e-mail: mcdpw@pacific.pacific.net ** Ph:(707)485-7220 H,(707)463-4265 W ]

------------------------------

Date:         Tue, 25 Oct 94 16:48:05 EDT
From: Brian Willoughby <BAWILL01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Tootsie Toy Land-Rovers, Cont'd. and alternators

Sorry!  I neglected to say a few other things concerning those little
Tootsie Landies I'm searching for.  As I recall, the only way one could
purchase the model was to buy it as part of a set.  These sets consisted
of about a half dozen die-cast cars all contained within plastic blisters
glued to a cardboard backing.  This model is a bit smaller than the familiar
Matchbox item (i.e. No. 12, the "Land Rover Safari" which came in Green, Blue
or Gold with luggage on the roof).  If memory serves me, this Tootsie also
had baggage atop its roof also.  It was a one piece casting with no base plate
and two axles with attached black plastic tires crimped in place upon four
little metal flanges suspended from the body.  Tootsie also sold other, bigger
Land-Rovers, though these were highly free-lanced Series III's with a lot of

accompanying plastic.  I also have them already.  A reasonable price to me is
$10 or under.  (Which is far more than it is supposed to be worth on the
collector market).  I'm in graduate school and don't have a lot of money to
play around with.  Again, let me know if you have a nice example of this model
you are willing to part with.

Now, my alternator.  Sometimes it charges, sometimes it doesn't.  When it is
not charging, the light glows orange in the center of my dash.  Often, it will
be glowing from the second it is started until it is shut down.  Other times,
it will not glow at all or half-way through a trip it will flip on.  The leads

are good and tight.  The belt is not slipping.  What is wrong?  The wiring on
this car is a nightmare and apparently has been since a p.o. switched it over
from pos. earth to neg. earth.  One of my first priorities is to get a new
wiring loom when I finish school, though in the mean time, I would like to keep
the car rolling.  Could the alt. be bad?  Automotive electrics are not my field
of expertise.  Replys on the Model can be sent directly to me; if you want to
post the alt. solution/suggestion to the entire list, be my guest or send it
again direct.  Thanks in advance.  May the Prince of Darkness watch over me!
That's a certain Joseph Lucas, you know.
Brian Willoughby  1960 Series II 88" Station Wagon

E-Mail:  bawill01@ukcc.uky.edu

------------------------------

From: "Jurgen Klus" <PSJK@psy1.ssn.flinders.edu.au>
Date:          Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:05:46 GMT-0930
Subject:       Discovery Accessories

Peter C Parsons is wondering about accessories.
Having had a Discovery for two years now, the most valuable bits are:
Floor mats
cargo barrier
head rest covers (the head rests are diabolically hard on your head 
when bouncing off-road)
something over the rat-shit arm rests, they're as hard and 
uncomfortable as all get out as well!
a decent tow bar (the Land Rover one is hopeless - the loss in ground 
clearance is diabolical with theirs, unless its been changed)
good window tinting (ours are tinted with Titanium Plus tint, 99% UV 
reflection and 60% infra red)
a rear snatch point (we fitted a front one to the rear chassis rail 
on the right hand side) Just in case you're the bunny who goes first 
and gets stuck! Most tow bar pins are NOT rated, so pulling out your 
car with them is potentially risky.
a brush??? bar. Only if you think they're sexy. We go into the Aust 
bush without a bar, not a problem.
CD changer??? Obviously you don't intend to use the Landy in any 
dusty conditions ----- wimp!
Jurgen Klus  Tel 618 201 2413    Fax 618 201 3877
When the going gets tough..the tough get Land Rover!

------------------------------

From: Morgan Hannaford <morgan@nature.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: OHV parks and trips
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:43:07 -0700 (PDT)

Granville,

Those parks sound great, if I had known I would have gone there
to kill my radiator!  The trip through the Mendocino National 
Forest sounded like fun, how long ago?  I've been trying to 
talk some friends down here into a similar trip.  Maybe some
people in No.Cal. would be interested in an officially unofficial
land-rover get together; not to park 'em on the lawn but to stick
'em in the mud!  The Mendocino Nat. For. would be a lot closer for
many of us than the Black Rock Desert trips (though they do sound
fun!).  

So, if any Rover netters are interested in the above mentioned dirt-
fest, let's organize.

Sincerely,
Morgan Hannaford
U.C. Berkeley
'69 88"

P.S. Granville, I finally did meet up with the woman from the city
who drives her red IIA 88" up to Laytonville.  I followed her up 
from Cloverdale to Willits on 101, she must have thought I was nuts.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: lro & new lrs 
From: dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca (dixon kenner)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 20:46:46 -0500

Mike Fredette <mfredett@ichips.intel.com> writes:

>                                            I also didn't mean to imply, as
> Russell pointed out, that the only reason people buy Series vehicles is that
> they can't afford the new ones. Sorry to give that impression.

        Russell's message never arrived here, nor on another site that
        I know of.  Care to forward it here, of post it?  I think the
        addressing to lro got a bit grunged.

        Thx,

--
dixon kenner, dixon@fourfold.ocunix.on.ca
FourFold Symmetry,            |    Ottawa Valley Land Rovers
Nepean, Ontario, Canada       |    1016 Normandy Crescent, Nepean
(OVLR's InterNet site)        |    Ontario, Canada, K2C 0L4

------------------------------

From: "T.F. Mills" <tomills@du.edu>
Subject: Re: Tootsie Toy Land-Rovers
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 00:21:29 -0600 (MDT)

Brian Willoughby scribbleth:
 
< Does anyone on the list have a spare Tootsie Land-Rover 109"?  This model
< was released during the late 1960's and based upon a 109" Station Wagon.
	 [ truncated by lro-digester (was 9 lines)]
< "Collectable Toys."  Anyone who has one for sale at a reasonable price can
< contact me directly.

	There be an ugly Tootsie on my computer.
	Off of Jan's dirty desk I pursued 'er.
		So, she ain't for sale!
		Not even the Holy Grail
	Or a gummy Norwegian could substitute 'er.

(especially when you consider that she runs better than my Solihull
model right now).  Of course, if you are in to gummy Norwegians, you
might be able to bribe Jon.

T. F. Mills                                              tomills@du.edu
University of Denver Library  2150 E. Evans Ave.  Denver  CO 80208  USA

------------------------------

From: LANDROVER@delphi.com
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 01:50:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Tootsie Toy Land-Rovers

Brian writes....

> Does anyone on the list have a spare Tootsie Land-Rover 109"?  This model
> was released during the late 1960's and based upon a 109" Station Wagon.
> The body is coloured a bright green and all of the windows except the
front
> doors and windscreen are blanked-off with zinc.  It measures about two
> inches in length and had a trailer hitch as I recall.

Well Brian.. I have one.. not in mint condition as some damm fool glued
sparkly stuff all over it. I don't really want to sell it, but I might trade
it if you have something interesting and cheap and land-roverish..

Cheers
  Michael Loiodice       E-MAIL   landrover@delphi.com              
  166 W.Fulton St.       VOICE    (518) 773-2697                    
  Gloversville                                                      
  NY, 12078              1972 Ser III 88 Petrol (Fern)       
 

------------------------------

  END OF LAND ROVER OWNER DIGEST 

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