Subject: LRO digest, Vol 1 #143 - 15 msgs

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 03:04:18 -0500 (EST)

Send LRO mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of LRO digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. PTO drive options (Todd Kendrick)
   2. S3 Heater motor (Ian Harper)
   3. Re: S3 Heater motor (Mark Pilkington)
   4. Re: S3 Heater motor (Kirk Hillman)
   5. Re: RE: The Stent Brothers (John Cranfield)
   6. Re: S3 Heater motor (Keith Tanner)
   7. Re: RE: The Stent Brothers (Mark Pilkington)
   8. Re: RE: The Stent Brothers (John Karlsson)
   9. Re: RE: The Stent Brothers (Frank Elson)
  10. Winch Mount Bumper (Mark Pilkington)
  11. Superwinch OX 24 Volt (Christian Kiel)
  12. Re: RE: The Stent Brothers (N Forbes)
  13. Re: Torque wrenches and Land Rovers ([email-masked])
  14. Re: RE: The Stent Brothers (Jim Hall)
  15. Fuel Economy? (apsilon)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: "Todd Kendrick" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] PTO drive options
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:10:40 -0700
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Kirk,
    I have the same problem w/ the Koenig PTO I picked off a '58 parts
truck. My truck w/ overdrive does not leave much space for a PTO even if I
did have the gear to make it work.I have a picture of my PTO; if you would
like one please e-mail me off line.

Todd Kendrick
Taos, NM
'66 109" P/U

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:07 AM
Subject: LRO digest, Vol 1 #142 - 10 msgs

> Send LRO mailing list submissions to
> [email-masked]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> [email-masked]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> [email-masked]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of LRO digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Heater Redux (Rob MacCormick)
>    2. Re: Heater Redux (richer alan)
>    3. Results (A. P. (Sandy) Grice)
>    4. Re: Results (Frank Elson)
>    5. RE: Results (Tackley, John)
>    6. Re: Heater Redux (Stephen West-Fisher)
>    7. 88 sides with sliding windows needed ([email-masked])
>    8. Koenig winches (Kirk Hillman)
>    9. PTO drive options (Kirk Hillman)
>   10. Re: Torque wrenches and Land Rovers (Jean-Leon Morin)
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:02:25 -0500
> From: Rob MacCormick <[email-masked]>
> Organization: Boston College
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [lro] Heater Redux
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> What kind of truck did she have?
>
> Stephen West-Fisher wrote:
>
> > Peter Ogilvie wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Three years on a boat and nearly 10 years using alternate energy in
our
> > > house got me real familiar with Kerosene.  Maybe the fumes went to my
> > > head but I kind of like the smell of kerosene.
> >
> > I was almost aftraid to say it, but when I was a teenager I had a job as
> > a truck mechanic at a concrete company. Had a thing going on with a
> > secretary there, who used to come visit me in the one stall garage. The
> > only heaters were the kerosene space heater/blower things in the shop.
> > The smell of kerosene makes me think of something else.....
> > _______________________________________________
> > LRO mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:11:25 -0800 (PST)
> From: richer alan <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: [lro] Heater Redux
> To: [email-masked]
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> I don't think it was the truck he was after....just
> the bumpers...
>
>
> --- Rob MacCormick <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > What kind of truck did she have?
> >
> >
> > > Peter Ogilvie wrote:
> > > The smell of kerosene makes me think of something
> > else.....
>
>
> =====
> Please ignore the following advertising.....
> Find a job, post your resume.
> http://careers.yahoo.com
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:18:53 -0500
> To: [email-masked]
> From: "A. P. (Sandy) Grice" <[email-masked]>
> Subject: [lro] Results
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
>
> >Sandy, I need those results.
>
> Sorry, I don't have them...John has my clip board with everything on
it....
>
> Cheers
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 4
> From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: [lro] Results
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:07:52 -0000
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> john?
> Best Cheers
>
> Frank
>     +--+--+--+
>      I !__|  [_]|_\___
>      I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
>      "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. P. (Sandy) Grice" <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:18 PM
> Subject: [lro] Results
>
>
> >
> > "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
> >
> > >Sandy, I need those results.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't have them...John has my clip board with everything on
> it....
> >
> > Cheers
> > _______________________________________________
> > LRO mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 5
> From: "Tackley, John" <[email-masked]>
> To: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
> Subject: RE: [lro] Results
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:46:46 -0500
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> OK, OK, Sandy ratted me out...I'll see if I can decipher his chicken
scratch
> and get those results to you Monday.
>
> Have a great weekend, Frank!
>
> L8r,
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Elson [mailto:[email-masked]]
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:08 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [lro] Results
>
>
>
> john?
> Best Cheers
>
> Frank
>     +--+--+--+
>      I !__|  [_]|_\___
>      I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
>      "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "A. P. (Sandy) Grice" <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:18 PM
> Subject: [lro] Results
>
>
> >
> > "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
> >
> > >Sandy, I need those results.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't have them...John has my clip board with everything on
> it....
> >
> > Cheers
> > _______________________________________________
> > LRO mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 17:48:23 -0500
> From: Stephen West-Fisher <[email-masked]>
> Organization: Coastal Data Systems
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [lro] Heater Redux
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> Rob MacCormick wrote:
>
> > What kind of truck did she have?
> >
>
> Scout with the pickup top.
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 7
> From: <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:23:47 -0500
> Subject: [lro] 88 sides with sliding windows needed
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> hello,
>
> i am trying something and need a pair of 88 sides for my 109. decent
condition
> and sliding windows, any color or condition of paint....i have a sander
and
> paint!
> i am located in CT.
> thank you
> chill willGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download :
> http://explorer.msn.com
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 8
> From: "Kirk Hillman" <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 19:40:19 -0700
> Subject: [lro] Koenig winches
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> I don't know if anyone has noticed, but when I searched for 'Koenig
winch',
> I found the site for Rawson-Koenig.  I would venture a guess that they are
> the remnants of the same company.  Is this where people are getting parts
> from?
>     Also, does anyone have a parts diagram comparing the PTO and crank
> version?  I have found a PTO version on an early SI, but I have an OD and
> was wondering if the crank version was a different animal or what.
>
> Thanks,
> Kirk
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 9
> From: "Kirk Hillman" <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:30:57 -0700
> Subject: [lro] PTO drive options
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
>     I was just looking around and found a web page with an adaptor to use
> both an OD and PTO.  This PTO drove his Koenig Series 100.    It got my
> hopes all up until I found out that it was on an early Jeep.  That being
the
> case, I suppose the same couldn't be done on a LR could it?  The premise
was
> that he took a regular gear and modified it.  I have never taken my
> transmission/transfer case apart so I have never actually seen these
parts,
> let alone the OD.
>     Assuming it even was possible, wouldn't the OD and PTO have to be
driven
> at the same time?  I know there is a clutch on the Koenig but I would
rather
> not have that extra shaft spinning when I am on the highway.  Conversely,
I
> don't want the OD engaged when I am stuck and trying to winch myself out.
> Is this making sense or am I missing something?
>     Here is the link to the page I found this on:
http://vernco.com/id41.htm
>     I have done much speculating on this and that over the past couple of
> LRO years.  I have finally decided to do something with my LR and the
first
> thing was to get a decent front bumper built.  That lead to the idea of
> losing the crappy electric winch I have and getting something that will
pull
> stronger and longer.  The options were hydraulic and mechanical driven.
The
> Koenig made the most sense if I could find one in a crank driven version,
> but I found a PTO version instead.  So I have a Fairey OD and want a PTO.
> 'And now you know the rest of the story...'
>
> Kirk
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> Message: 10
> From: "Jean-Leon Morin" <[email-masked]>
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [lro] Torque wrenches and Land Rovers
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:25:50 -0500
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
>
> Re: Pet Peeve from Chris Hall.
>
> I agree with you that in order for the universe to function correctly and
> the planet to not fall apart, Newton's law must be true - it states that
for
> every force there is an equal and opposite force.
>
> This would mean that 100 Nm at on end would mean 100 Nm at the other end.
> Yes, you are right, the extension would be turning if the torques varied
> from one end to another - IF the extension was stiff enough to not absorb
> energy, in this case torque, in the form of deformation. Keep in mind that
> this system is not at rest, but it is in motion and operating under load -
> and a spring can absorb energy... It's gotta give it back though.
>
> I also agree that loss of power in impact tools is a completely separate
> matter - That I won't discuss here. I might be completely wrong here, I
> admit it - But I don't think I am. Not trying to start a flame war
either...
>
> I'll try and explain my point.
>
> You are pulling a sled. Really slowly. On the rope between the sled and
your
> hand is a spring. You start walking. The spring will extend (hereby
> absorbing energy) until you have accumulated enough energy (this would be
> torque in the extension) to get the sled moving. The sled totes along
behind
> you happily, the spring is extended, and you are NOT losing any energy in
> this state, everything is in total equilibrium. 100KN in, 100KN out. But
> then -
>
> You slow down. The sled will stop. You will see that the spring will still
> be extended a bit, and you will find that the energy that you have put in
to
> moving the sled has been partly dissipated by common factors (friction,
etc)
> but a portion of it will still be absorbed in the spring. That's the
> problem. That energy gets released when you let go of the rope, your pull
> completed.
>
> It has to do with the fact that is harder to get something slipping than
to
> keep it slipping - the coefficients of friction for static and kinetic
> friction (moving and non-moving) are different. Of course, momentum does
not
> apply here- a REALLY slow pull.
>
> HOW THIS RELATES TO THE TORQUE WRENCH...
>
> What will happen will be that you will initially accumulate torque in the
> spring (extension). As soon as you pass the static friction threshold,
your
> socket and bolt will effectively spring forward, unloading the extension,
as
> the power to keep things moving is less and the bolt will grab again as
you
> aren't applying enough torque (the bar is unloaded and yet again twisting
> ever so slightly, absorbing energy). This starts the cycle over again.
>
> Think of what happens next - as you near the torque specification, you
will
> reach the point again where you bolt will stop moving and have to start
over
> and cross that static threshold to keep moving. Instead of doing so, the
bar
> will absorb the energy, and you'll max out your torque spec, without ever
> reaching the torque specification desired.  The stored energy that doesn't
> go towards tightening the bolt up gets released when you back off the
torque
> wrench and remove it from the bolt head.
>
> I'm not making this up - In high school I distinctly remember being told
> repeatedly that torque wrenches and 3/8" or 1/2" extensions over 6" long
for
> head bolts, etc did NOT work - they would throw you off a bit - I remember
> reading service manuals (although regrettably I don't know which ones)
where
> they actually gave you an equation to calculate the proper torque setting,
> taking into account the length and X section area of your extension...
These
> figures might be in my old schoolbooks, I'll try and find them. I have
never
> ever seen or heard of a professional mechanic using an extension on a
torque
> wrench when dealing with close tolerance bolts...
>
> I reserve the right to be crazy, but I'm damn sure on this one...
>
> J-L
>
>  > OK,  J-L  , Pet pieve time.  Think about that first paragraph.  If the
> > torque was not the same on both ends of the extension the extension
would
> > be turning.  If it stops turning it stops because the torque is the same
> > on both ends just in opposite directions.  Extensions DO absorb torque
> > when used with impact tools because the torque is not delivered smoothly
> > so the extension twists when torque is applied and untwists so the next
> > hit on the anvil has to twist it up again.  This is not the case with a
> > hand operated wrench (or it should not be) so a 3 meter extension with a
> > torsional force of 100 Nt/m at one end will have a have a torsional
force
> > of 100 Nt/m in the other direction at the far end if the extension is
not
> > turning.  I wish someone would may me for all the broken and striped
> > fastener I have had to fix because of this misunderstanding.
> >
> > No problem with the rest of your post
>
>
> -- __--__-- 
>
> _______________________________________________
> * Team.Net hosted courtesy of Amaranth Networks, Inc. http://Amaranth.com/
*
> * Powered by SUN(r). The network is the computer.(tm) *
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
>
>
> End of LRO Digest

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 11:51:55 -0500
From: Ian Harper <[email-masked]>
To: LRO Submissions <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] S3 Heater motor
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Does anyone have a replacement alternative to the S3 blower motors?  I
should be able to get away with just fixing/replacing the motor, if I
can just get the vanes off...seems the clip is rusted and the plastic
vanes themselves are brittle.

I don't suppose there's an alternative (GM or something a little more
attainable) for a fan/housing that would replace the whole unit???

Cheers, Ian

--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:15:12 -0800
From: Mark Pilkington <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] S3 Heater motor
Reply-To: [email-masked]

The ultimate fix is a Kodiak Land Rover Heater.  I do not know where to
get one, but they were fitted in Land Rovers in the 60's.  I have one in
mine and with the hard top on, I have to open the vents when it is off to
keep cool.  You could bake bread in there when it is running.  It is even
hot with the roof off at night!!!  See if you can find a used one.  They
mount under the dash on the right where the pedals would be if it were a
Right hand drive.  I can send you a picture of mine if you want, so you
can see what it looks like.
Kind regards,
Mark Pilkington

Ian Harper wrote:

> Does anyone have a replacement alternative to the S3 blower motors?  I
> should be able to get away with just fixing/replacing the motor, if I
> can just get the vanes off...seems the clip is rusted and the plastic
> vanes themselves are brittle.
>
> I don't suppose there's an alternative (GM or something a little more
> attainable) for a fan/housing that would replace the whole unit???
>
> Cheers, Ian
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: "Kirk Hillman" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] S3 Heater motor
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:23:39 -0700
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Mark,
    Please send me a picture of yours if you don't mind.  I have one, but am
missing some parts like the little flapper that I assume is inside the
distribution box.  Also, my controls are funny, especially the blower motor
switch.  There is glass fuse right in the switch that is always being blown.
The little ceramic part gets red hot most times too.  I have tried to avoid
using it because of this, but would like to rectify the problem all
together.

Thanks,
Kirk

--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:51:00 -0400
From: [email-masked] (John Cranfield)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: The Stent Brothers
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I'm sure you have all managed with out my bloody comments and in future
I will be turning a blind eye to many of yours. Before I continue in
this vein too long....
John and Muddy

Easton Trevor A wrote:
> 
> I of course have an arterior motive (Groan)
> 
> We'll miss Cranfield's input here. Maybe the Rosvall's can pass this on and
> get John's reply for us.
> 
> Trevor
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:52:43 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] S3 Heater motor
Reply-To: [email-masked]

A recent post by John Cranfield to this list might be useful for you, Mark:
--------------------------------------
  A motor and cage from a mid 80s front wheel drive GM will fit if you
open up the hole in the housing rather off centred to the outlet. This
will move about 200% more air than the original.
John and Muddy

Bill Fishel wrote:
 >
 > Blower for the heater in the SIII is dead. Anybody know of a replacement 
I can use from a auto salvage yard that will fit in place of the original?
 > Alternative is heater from a M37 24 volt system. Probably only run half 
speed on 12 volts. I'd like to get something cheap from a junkyard but not 
sure what to look for.
------------
Keith's page de home:
    http://keith.miata.net
------------

--__--__--

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 12:25:48 -0800
From: Mark Pilkington <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: The Stent Brothers
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Welcome back John.

John Cranfield wrote:

> I'm sure you have all managed with out my bloody comments and in future
> I will be turning a blind eye to many of yours. Before I continue in
> this vein too long....
> John and Muddy
>
> Easton Trevor A wrote:
> >
> > I of course have an arterior motive (Groan)
> >
> > We'll miss Cranfield's input here. Maybe the Rosvall's can pass this on and
> > get John's reply for us.
> >
> > Trevor
> > _______________________________________________
> > LRO mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:47:32 -0500
To: [email-masked]
From: John Karlsson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: The Stent Brothers
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Welcome back.  Glad to see you are still able to put tongue on cheek.

John

At 03:25 PM 11/3/01, you wrote:

>Welcome back John.
>
>John Cranfield wrote:
>
> > I'm sure you have all managed with out my bloody comments and in future
> > I will be turning a blind eye to many of yours. Before I continue in
> > this vein too long....
> > John and Muddy
> >
> > Easton Trevor A wrote:
> > >
> > > I of course have an arterior motive (Groan)
> > >
> > > We'll miss Cranfield's input here. Maybe the Rosvall's can pass this 
> on and
> > > get John's reply for us.
> > >
> > > Trevor
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > LRO mailing list
> > > [email-masked]
> > > http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
> > _______________________________________________
> > LRO mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
>_______________________________________________
>LRO mailing list
>[email-masked]
>http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

John Karlsson
956 Main Street
P.O. Box 1023
Hope Valley, RI  02832

--__--__--

Message: 9
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: The Stent Brothers
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:58:48 -0000
Reply-To: [email-masked]

John Cranfield writes:

and bloody good it is to see your name on a posting again John, welcome
back...
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:10:44 -0800
From: Mark Pilkington <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [lro] Winch Mount Bumper
Reply-To: [email-masked]

If anyone wants to see the winch mount front bumper off my Series IIa, have a
look on Ebay.  The reserve is $80 and there are two pictures.  It should be at
the following.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=597519591&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1005426417&indexURL=0&rd=1

Kind regards,
Mark Pilkington

--__--__--

Message: 11
From: "Christian Kiel" <[email-masked]>
To: "LandRover Diskus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:06:41 +0100
Subject: [lro] Superwinch OX 24 Volt
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Hi,
did anybody know something about this "Superwinch OX 24 Volt" Winch? Someone
is offering one, but first I was looking for a Husky. So any one, who has
Details, please post a message.

MfG Christian ;-}

If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.

--__--__--

Message: 12
From: "N Forbes" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: The Stent Brothers
Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 00:43:18 +0000
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Hey, great to see you online, John. Glad to see your sense of humour wasn't 
injured. Hope you're starting to feel better.

Niall Forbes
66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
The Nova Scotian Rover - http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/intro.htm

"See the happy moron,
He doesn't give a damn.
I wish I were a moron.
My God! Perhaps I am!"
--author unknown

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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Message: 13
To: [email-masked]
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 19:57:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [lro] Torque wrenches and Land Rovers
From: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

 That I won't discuss here. I might be completely wrong 
> here, I
> admit it - But I don't think I am. Not trying to start a flame war 
> either...

In that case I will only have this discussion if you agree to have a few
beers on me if I make it to the birthday party next year.  No flame wars
here.

> HOW THIS RELATES TO THE TORQUE WRENCH...
> 
> What will happen will be that you will initially accumulate torque 
> in the
> spring (extension). As soon as you pass the static friction 
> threshold, your
> socket and bolt will effectively spring forward, unloading the 
> extension, as
> the power to keep things moving is less and the bolt will grab again 
> as you
> aren't applying enough torque (the bar is unloaded and yet again 
> twisting
> ever so slightly, absorbing energy). This starts the cycle over 
> again.

If that is how the bolt turns there is a big problem.  The bolt (or nut
as the case may be) should keep moving from the time static friction is
over come till the ultimate torque is reached.  If it stops before care
must be taken that the static friction is lower then the dynamic friction
at the desired torque.  
> 
> Think of what happens next - as you near the torque specification, 
> you will
> reach the point again where you bolt will stop moving and have to 
> start over
> and cross that static threshold to keep moving. Instead of doing so, 
> the bar
> will absorb the energy, and you'll max out your torque spec, without 
> ever
> reaching the torque specification desired.  The stored energy that 
> doesn't
> go towards tightening the bolt up gets released when you back off 
> the torque
> wrench and remove it from the bolt head.
> 
> I'm not making this up - In high school I distinctly remember being 
> told
> repeatedly that torque wrenches and 3/8" or 1/2" extensions over 6" 
> long for
> head bolts, etc did NOT work - they would throw you off a bit - I 
> remember
> reading service manuals (although regrettably I don't know which 
> ones) where
> they actually gave you an equation to calculate the proper torque 
> setting,
> taking into account the length and X section area of your 
> extension... These
> figures might be in my old schoolbooks, I'll try and find them. I 
> have never
> ever seen or heard of a professional mechanic using an extension on 
> a torque
> wrench when dealing with close tolerance bolts...

I do it all the time on the ALFA's with BMEPs over 170PIS
> 
> I reserve the right to be crazy, but I'm damn sure on this one...
> 
> J-L
The extension is a torsion bar, in other words just a spring.  A coil
spring mostly twists when it is compressed, so they store energy much the
same way.  If you were to place a coil spring between two scales and
compress it the scales would read the same.  So why should a straight
torsion bar be different?

Another way.  The bar does absorb energy, so more  energy has to be put
in then comes out the other end, but you have to turn the wrench farther
then the bolts moves, so you put more energy.  When the system reaches
equilibrium the system stops moving and the torque on each end of the bar
is equal.  If it is not then something else is putting in energy to hold
the system in equilibrium.  Your theory would have the bar supplying that
energy , so where is it going or come from?  The bar is neither heating
or cooling so it is now static as to energy level.  

Yes the extension does absorb energy but not torque.  You supply the
extra energy by having to turning the wrench farther to get to the
desired torque.

Now how about those beers?

I gather you are a fellow gear head.  I just came from a class where a
video of this years Superflow conference was played.  The Swissauto
sidecar racer was just incredible.  the engine is 57 pounds, 250cc  and
put 190BHP to the rear wheel at 16000RPM  just an amazing machined.

Chris

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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 18:34:13 -0700
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: The Stent Brothers
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Great to see you back so soon.  Even though you weren't gone that long,
we all missed you.

John Cranfield wrote:
> 
> I'm sure you have all managed with out my bloody comments and in future
> I will be turning a blind eye to many of yours. Before I continue in
> this vein too long....
> John and Muddy

-- 
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

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Message: 15
From: "apsilon" <[email-masked]>
To: "LRO List" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:40:55 +1100
Subject: [lro] Fuel Economy?
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Hi all,

Did a bit of driving today (on road unfortunately) and noticed how bad the
fuel economy was. I couldn't have been doing better than 2mpg, 1.5mpg is
probably closer if I actually sat down and worked it out. This was for
suburban traffic so constantly flowing as opposed to stop start or sustained
highway.

I wasn't expecting great economy but this seems a little too bad to me. What
should I expect to get on a well tuned, healthy 2.25 petrol sIII 88? I
suspect it's running rich.

Thanks,
Matt.
Sydney Australia
'75 Series III 88

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