Subject: LRO digest, Vol 1 #103 - 47 msgs

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:56:04 -0400 (EDT)

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: rubber side window gasket? (Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus)
   2. Re: MAR (Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus)
   3. Re: Burn baby burn! (Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus)
   4. Re: Burn baby burn! (Jim Hall)
   5. Re: sighting in Culver City, CA (Russ Wilson)
   6. Re: Air Conditioning in a Series (TeriAnn Wakeman)
   7. Re: Air Conditioning in a Series (Bill Adams)
   8. Re: MAR ([email-masked])
   9. Re: MAR (Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus)
  10. Re: Space Heaters? (David G. Russell)
  11. 109 Diesel Owners in GA? (RON WARD)
  12. Re: 6 cylinder generator location (David G. Russell)
  13. Re: 109 Diesel Owners in GA? (John Cranfield)
  14. Re: 109 Diesel Owners in GA? (Bill Adams)
  15. Re: 109 Diesel Owners in GA? (RON WARD)
  16. Re: The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover) (TeriAnn Wakeman)
  17. 140 wt (A. P. (Sandy) Grice)
  18. Engines (A. P. (Sandy) Grice)
  19. Engines (was fixing up a Land Rover) (Faure, Marin)
  20. Re: terminal shudder (Smokey Briggs)
  21. Re: The soul of a Land Rover (Faure, Marin)
  22. Re: Re: The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land
       Rover) (Hope Peter)
  23. Re: MAR (Scott Wickham)
  24. A block heater (Michael Hatton)
  25. Air Conditioning in a Series (Rich Williams II)
  26. Re: MAR (Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus)
  27. Re: The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover) (Bryan Hoult)
  28. Re: The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover) (Bryan Hoult)
  29. Re: A block heater (Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus)
  30. Re: The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover) (Keith Tanner)
  31. WOW, soul of the Land Rover! (David and Cindi Walker)
  32. Block Heaters ATT: Sandy Grice (asfco)
  33. Re: MAR (RON WARD)
  34. Re: WOW, soul of the Land Rover! (Rob MacCormick)
  35. Re: MAR (Frank Elson)
  36. Re: MAR (Frank Elson)
  37. Re: air conditioning (Frank Elson)
  38. Re: Re: The soul of a Land Rover (Frank Elson)
  39. Re: terminal shudder (Peter Ogilvie)
  40. Re: Fixing up a Land Rover (Paul)
  41. Re: MAR (Frank Elson)
  42. Re: RE: Fixing up a Land Rover (N Forbes)
  43. Weights (TeriAnn Wakeman)
  44. Re: RE: Fixing up a Land Rover (N Forbes)
  45. Re: Re: Fixing up a Land Rover (N Forbes)
  46. 2.6 engine (Faure, Marin)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Subject: Re: [lro] rubber side window gasket?
To: [email-masked]
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 06:22:28 -0400
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Any good glass shop should have it - else JC Witless carries it in their
catalogue.

                              ajr

--__--__--

Message: 2
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
To: [email-masked]
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 06:27:35 -0400
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Pink?  I will not wear a pink shirt, me bucko.....8*)

Look for the crazy man with a fedora, blue Range Rover and a 30-odd year od
caravan.....that will be me.

                              ajr

--__--__--

Message: 3
Subject: Re: [lro] Burn baby burn!
To: [email-masked]
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 06:32:49 -0400
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Personally I'd be paranoid about it meeting the straightness specs even for
a Land-Rover - I'll lay odds both of them are warped.

Also, there is now NO paint inside that chassis - how are you going to
preserve it?

                              aj"<shudder>"r

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 06:15:30 -0600
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] Burn baby burn!
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Keith, I have a very good frame I'd be willing to sell. It has only
surface rust. The ends of the rear crossmember are a little messed up,
but I could fix them. One is bent in a little, the other one, somebody
must have tried to tow the rover by the handle, and ripped the bolts
through the holes. I would also remove the thoroughly siezed relay and
spring bushings as they are very accessible with no body. The best part
is I could probably be persuaded to bring it over for you to look at if
you were to tempt me with a trail run. I would like $500 for it, which 
is what I paid. I was going to keep it for my rover, but I am a little
low on cash flow at the moment.

Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus wrote:
> 
> Personally I'd be paranoid about it meeting the straightness specs even for
> a Land-Rover - I'll lay odds both of them are warped.
> 
> Also, there is now NO paint inside that chassis - how are you going to
> preserve it?
> 

-- 
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 05:36:18 -0700
From: Russ Wilson <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] sighting in Culver City, CA
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I have a new rover sighting for L.A. .   On Wednesday? I saw an ex 
military 88 on Santa Monica Blvd in W. Hollywood.  The truck had either 
new wheels or freshly painted wheels.  Rough looking truck but the guy 
is obviously working on it.

On Thursday, September 27, 2001, at 03:44 PM, Jeff Bieler wrote:

>
> Saw my 2nd ever Series truck in West Los Angeles/Culver City today.  
> 1st is
> a tan 109 soft top I see regularly in Santa Monica.  The owner appears 
> to
> have a 1,000 yard stare or a stiff neck as he never seems to look 
> around.
>
> The truck I saw today was a green 88" with a limestone hard top.  I 
> think it
> was a III, but I was so startled I didn't get a good look.   Anyway, 
> nice to
> see another Series whoever you are.
>
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
>

Russ Wilson

--__--__--

Message: 6
Subject: Re: [LRO] Air Conditioning in a Series
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 01 06:10:09 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
To: "LRO list" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>I'd look at the old VW bus version. The A/C lives in a pod located
>spanning the width of the interior behind the driver and passenger's
>heads. There were outlets front and rear and the hoses and wires ran up
>through a plastic trough. 

Hmmmm that's an interesting thought.  Here is another.I've built an 
overhead radio rack with a CD, AM-FM and their respective speakers.  The 
rack sits above the windscreen at the front and is about 2/3rds empty.  I 
wonder how bulky a unit is from a subcompact import and how big the hoses 
are going to the pump unit?

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
[email-masked]           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   

"How can life grant us the boon of living..unless we dare"
Amelia Earhart 1898-1937

--__--__--

Message: 7
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:24:41 -0400
From: Bill Adams <[email-masked]>
Organization: U.S. International Broadcasting Bureau
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [LRO] Air Conditioning in a Series
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Coils and hoses, ducting and wires will prolly not fit in that small a
space.
-- 
Bill Adams
Motion Graphics/3D Design Director
IBB Broadcast Design Center, Washington DC
[email-masked]
202-205-9638

1966 Land Rover 2A 109SW Diesel
1981 Honda GoldWing Standard
1963 Pearson Vanguard
"Practicing the ancient art of ren-ching"

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:46:47 EDT
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In a message dated 9/27/01 8:56:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[email-masked] writes:

> Might I sugest that this year we consider a meeting place, or all
> agree to wear pink shirts or something to enable mutual recognition.
> 
> 

I suggest we wear T shirts with oil and grease stains on them, and pants with 
greasy streaks on them. 
 
Fits well with my wardrobe.

Nate

--__--__--

Message: 9
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
To: [email-masked]
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:25:51 -0400
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I suggest we wear T shirts with oil and grease stains on them, and pants
with
greasy streaks on them.

Fits well with my wardrobe.

Nate

Yes - but how then could you tell the LROs from the non-LROs?

Or anyone else down that way, for that matter?...8*)

            aj"Hence the fedora with Lucas pins attached....."r

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:37:25 -0400
From: "David G. Russell" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] Space Heaters?
To: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Forgive me if my Hawaian history is off a bit but my barn was probably
built before your location was even "discovered" (conquered?).

It's held up somewhat by force of habit and proximity (I hear the
diesels crank up) to a 10-unit Fire station. Burning it down has been
tried at least twice (not by me--yet) and I don't think moving it is an
option.

Cheers.

-David

On 9/27/01 at 3:02 AM, [email-masked] wrote:

> From: "Peter Ogilvie" <[email-masked]>
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [lro] Space Heaters?
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:41:57 -1000
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> 
> Just can't sit by and not comment on your wasteful ways.  My garage is
> unheated.  It stays warm all winter despite the fact I don't have a
> heater, however.  Its ingeniusly designed to take advantage of solar
> energy.  You people need to take advantage of proper location and quit
> polluting the atmosphere and wasting fossil fuels.
> 
> Aloha
> Peter Ogilvie

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:12:34 -0400
From: "RON WARD" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] 109 Diesel Owners in GA?
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I have a chance to buy a very nice '72 SIII 109 with standard Rover (2.5?)diesel engine.

First, I have some experience with the petrol 2.25 and understand it's limited ability is greater still than the diesel.  Is servicing the diesel similar?  Worse, easier?

Second, any diesel owners in GA (Series diesels, that is) that might chime in regarding the ability to find a home-town mechanic to work on a diesel for me...?

thanks

Ron Ward

--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:17:21 -0400
From: "David G. Russell" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] 6 cylinder generator location
To: [email-masked]
cc: [email-masked]
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Rob,

According to my Green Bible, the Generator was on the right side,
slightly below the axis of the fan.

-David

On 9/27/01 at 7:16 PM, Rob MacCormick <[email-masked]>

> Organization: Boston College
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: [lro] 6 cylinder generator location
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> 
> In my '68 109 RHD dormobile with they chevy 6.....Where would the
> original generator have been located? It originally had the Land rover
> 6 cylinder and being RHD I'm thinking not NADA if that makes a
> difference.....I'm trying to figure out where it was (left side of
> engine vs. right side of engine) to begin to address a wiring harness
> replacement desire......
> 
> Rob MacCormick
> Concord MA

--__--__--

Message: 13
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:29:20 -0300
From: [email-masked] (John Cranfield)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] 109 Diesel Owners in GA?
Reply-To: [email-masked]

As far as the servicing a Farm Tractor dealer would be the most likely
to have experience that could be related to the small diesel in the Land
Rover and if not a John Deere shop they very possibly can supply Lucas
bits too since many manufacturers built tractors in Britain through the
60s and 70s.
John and Muddy 

RON WARD wrote:
> 
> I have a chance to buy a very nice '72 SIII 109 with standard Rover (2.5?)diesel engine.
> 
> First, I have some experience with the petrol 2.25 and understand it's limited ability is greater still than the diesel.  Is servicing the diesel similar?  Worse, easier?
> 
> Second, any diesel owners in GA (Series diesels, that is) that might chime in regarding the ability to find a home-town mechanic to work on a diesel for me...?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Ron Ward
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 14
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:32:46 -0400
From: Bill Adams <[email-masked]>
Organization: U.S. International Broadcasting Bureau
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] 109 Diesel Owners in GA?
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I'm sure John Dillingham is still kicking around down there someplace.
Diesels are easy to work on...you set 'em and forget 'em, just keep
pouring Rotella down their throat, as it constantly oozes from every
possible joint, seal and bolt hole. Once a year you check the valve
clearances.
I've lived a long while with one and they have the tendency to rattle
the bejeezus out of all other parts and systems. The new radiator I
bought less than 18 months ago has started to come apart due to
vibration. I've gone through three exhausts since I rebuilt the engine
in January 2000.
-- 
Bill Adams
3D & Motion Graphics Design Director
International Broadcasting Bureau
Washington, D.C.
202-205-9638
[email-masked]

'66 Land Rover 109 SW Diesel
'81 GoldWing
'69 Le Sabre Convertible
'63 Pearson Vanguard
"Practicing the ancient art of ren-ching"

--__--__--

Message: 15
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:43:30 -0400
From: "RON WARD" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] 109 Diesel Owners in GA?
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Rotella?  Like the cheese dip?

Ron

>>> [email-masked] 09/28/01 11:32AM >>>

I'm sure John Dillingham is still kicking around down there someplace.
Diesels are easy to work on...you set 'em and forget 'em, just keep
pouring Rotella down their throat, as it constantly oozes from every
possible joint, seal and bolt hole. Once a year you check the valve
clearances.
I've lived a long while with one and they have the tendency to rattle
the bejeezus out of all other parts and systems. The new radiator I
bought less than 18 months ago has started to come apart due to
vibration. I've gone through three exhausts since I rebuilt the engine
in January 2000.
-- 
Bill Adams
3D & Motion Graphics Design Director
International Broadcasting Bureau
Washington, D.C.
202-205-9638
[email-masked] 

'66 Land Rover 109 SW Diesel
'81 GoldWing
'69 Le Sabre Convertible
'63 Pearson Vanguard
"Practicing the ancient art of ren-ching"
_______________________________________________
LRO mailing list
[email-masked] 
http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 16
Subject: Re: [lro] The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 01 08:52:07 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
To: "LRO list" <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>>On a related note, where does the "soul" of a Land Rover reside?

Well golly.  I was going to pass this thread up, but since C. Marin 
mentioned me and my LR I might was well put on my gum boots and wade in.

>It depends on how you approach the definition.

It does indeed. C. Marin is trying to take the high road of factory 
originality but rationalizes that converting to a completely non Land 
Rover suspension system and adding non Land Rover gauges does not take 
away from being a Land Rover while tinkering with the drive train does.

I own only two cars.  One is The Green Rover the other is a 1961 Triumph 
TR3A.

I hang a lot with the Triumph crowd and attend a lot of British car field 
meets so I feel I have an idea of where the hobby is.

There are primarily two camps, the collector and the driver.

The collector camp seems to view the classic car much as any collector 
would. Mint unused is best.  With cars mint restored as second best over 
worn original.  Worn intact originals don't have all that much value 
unless the vehicle is very rare and/or the collector is a researcher 
looking for an original research material for documentation.

For this camp I get the impression the soul comes built in at the factory 
and is a consumable item that wears away with use. A percentage of the  
soul can be restored if the vehicle is rebuilt like it came from the 
factory.  Any modification wounds the soul significantly.  These are the 
car club members who have pristine cars that mostly get trailered to 
events and driven only a minimum.

The other camp believes the soul of a vehicle comes from doing what the 
vehicle was designed and built to do.   This is what I call the driver 
group.  They seem to believe that a certain amount of soul comes from the 
factory but grows and is refined into something even more wonderful 
through use.  This group largely believes that the soul of a trailer 
queen is a thin translucent specter of what it could be, locked away from 
its intended life.

In this group the soul of a classic British roadster needs wind and 
tarmac to grow and flourish.  It needs to feel the wind along a mountain 
road while running through the gears with the tyres barely clinging to 
the tarmac.  It needs to have a wicker basket on the rear luggage rack 
and to stop for a summer picnic. The  vehicle needs to spend time at the 
edge of it's intended use envelope if the soul is to flourish.

The driver camp runs a full range from those who over restore and drive, 
those who correctly restore and drive, those who just drive and try to 
keep the vehicle drivable, those who want a few modifications to fit 
their personality or special needs and a whole spectrum who reengineer 
all or part of a vehicle.  

Of course the people at opposite ends of the driver camp see what each 
other is doing as not remotely proper but agree that the people in the 
collector camp are a bit batty.  The people in the collector camp believe 
the people in the driver camp are not quite right in the head.  They view 
those who restore and drive with suspicion and those who modify as 
outright criminals who should be locked away.

Basically everyone KNOWs their way is best and knows that the farther 
someone is from their part of the hobby spectrum the more wrong they are.

I personally am in the driver camp and believe the soul of a vehicle 
resides both in the driver/owner and the vehicle.  I also believe a 
vehicle and driver needs to spend time at the edge of it's intended use 
envelope if that shared soul is to flourish.

But I also believe that a shared vehicle soul is a highly individualistic 
thing based upon the innate capabilities of the vehicle, the dreams of 
the driver and actual shared experiences.  As long as the driver/owner is 
willing to carry part of the vehicle's soul there is no right or wrong, 
only individual differences in the shared souls.

To me the sad examples are where the owner/driver can not or will not 
take on and nourish part of the vehicle's soul.  The vehicle is relegated 
to being just a tool.

For C. Marin, an original drive train is the essence of the soul he 
shares with his Land Rover.  For me the essence lays primarily in shared 
experiences and pushing parts of the Land Rover envelope.

My Land Rover was completely worn out and missing many parts when I 
rescued her from sinking into the forest humus in early 1978.  Over the 
years she has worked hard on the ranch then went into a third life as a 
long range expedition vehicle.  There are very few parts on her that have 
not worn out and been replaced over her 41 year life.  

But to me there is a vibrant full bodied soul that My Land Rover shares 
with me.  Built gradually while stringing fence, mucking the barn, 
hauling hay, following parts of the Oregon and Majave wagon train trails, 
climbing boulder cover hills in the Sierra Nevada mountains, slick rock 
in Majove, camping on Vancouver island, in the Canadian and US Rocky 
mountains, in the bottom of Canyon de Chilly, in the Vermont woods, in 
the plains, alongside the northern shores of the Great Lakes and many, 
many other places.

To me a vehicles soul resides in shared experiences and is not innately 
siting in a hunk of iron or an aluminum panel.  The only wrong is not 
believing.

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
[email-masked]           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   

"How can life grant us the boon of living..unless we dare"
Amelia Earhart 1898-1937

--__--__--

Message: 17
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:03:08 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: "A. P. (Sandy) Grice" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] 140 wt
Reply-To: [email-masked]

"G. Mugele" <[email-masked]> wrote:

>I've long used 140 wt and had no problems.  Well that's not quite 
>accurate.... I had no problems with lubrication and/or leaks....
>Also at sub freezing temps changing cogs in the 
>main gear box takes far more effort than you expect until it warms 
>up. Also at those temps for the first five or ten miles it feels a 
>bit like you have the e-brake on.

At 35F below, your vehicle becomes imobile....Made the mistake one wintry
Vermont night of parking in gear...couldn't even shift the next morning,
let alone start the vehilce.  A garage-parked jeep had to drag me for 1/3
of a mile before the wheels, grudgingly, began to turn.  It took a 1/2 mile
to 'pop the clutch' and start the vehicle.  While it wouldn't help the
gearboxes, I bought my first block heater that day.

If you want to thicken up the swivel pin oil a mite, I'd suggest a 'cling'
oil like "HiTach"....

	*-----"jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is legendary"----*
	|                 A. P. "Sandy" Grice                  |
	|    The Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd    |
	|     1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
	|     757-622-7054  (H)423-4898  (FAX)757-622-7056     |
	*------------------------------------------------------*

--__--__--

Message: 18
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:03:10 -0400
To: [email-masked]
From: "A. P. (Sandy) Grice" <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] Engines
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Nate <[email-masked]> wrote:

>Gotta say, I've been very impressed with most of the American Iron I've
dealt 
>with.  Chevy 350--gotta love that engine  I've had several in several trucks 
>and never did anything other than change oil and plugs--never leaked and
only 
>burned a small amount of oil after 170K.

>Chevy 454...Chevy 366...AMC 360....

While it has been out of production for two or three decades, I always
thought the best engine Chevy *ever* made was the 283.  GM discontinued it
because it was *too* good...it never broke, so they couldn't make any money
selling spare parts.  At Greek Peak, someone had this conversion and it
looked to be perfect for a Series Rover.

Of course, Robert Davis is now on Version 3.0 of his "Iron Duke" design.
He's taken to calling it the "Iron Prince" and he'll have it at the MAR....

	*-----"jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is legendary"----*
	|                 A. P. "Sandy" Grice                  |
	|    The Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd    |
	|     1633 Melrose Parkway, Norfolk, VA 23508-1730     |
	|     757-622-7054  (H)423-4898  (FAX)757-622-7056     |
	*------------------------------------------------------*

--__--__--

Message: 19
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
To: "'Land Rover Mail Group'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:22:35 -0700
Subject: [lro] Engines (was fixing up a Land Rover)
Reply-To: [email-masked]

From: "Peter Ogilvie" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] Re: Fixing up a Land Rover
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 16:33:01 -1000
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>As far as aircraft engines, the Allison had problems developing horsepower 
at altitude.  The engine was okay but not for a high altitude fighter.  
Believe they were even preferred over the Packard for Gold Cup Boats.  As 
far as the Mustang, it was a nice machine but the 'Jug' also had an 
impressive number of kills and believe there were more Ace's in the Jug than

the Mustang

Having had a bit of experience with both of them, the Allison was far less 
reliable than the Rolls Royce Merlin.  As to the Gold Cup, the only reason 
the Allisons were dominant is because they were available and they were 
cheap.  They were cheap because they were relatively crappy.  Ask an old 
hydro driver about the Allison's notorious "quill" drive for the
supercharger.  
But hydro engines only have to run for a few minutes at a time, so
reliability 
wasn't as big an issue as it was for an airplane.  Bernie Little, the owner
of 
the Miss Budwiser hydro team, used Rolls Royce engines, first Merlins and 
later Griffons, because he was wealthy enough to afford them.  In fact, in
the  
couple of years before the boats switched to turbines, Bernie was rumored to

have bought every Rolls Royce Griffon he could get his hands on, not because
he needed all those engines but to keep his competitors from buying them.

I totally agree with Mr.Ogilvie that the one area in which US engine
manufactures really shone 
was in the design and construction of radial engines.  So far as I know, no
other 
manufacturer in the world was able to duplicate the reliability and
power-to-weight 
ratios of the engines from Pratt & Whitney and Wright.  If the engines used
in today's 
vehicles had half the reliability of the Pratt & Whitney R-985 in the Beaver
I fly, I'd 
be a happy person.  That's an apples and oranges comparison of course, but
the point is 
that US radial aircraft engines were, with few exceptions, outstanding
powerplants, better 
in many ways than any of the liquid-cooled engines that were produced by
Allison, Packard, 
Rolls Royce, Daimler, etc.  The P-47 was an outstanding airplane, but it
lacked the sex 
appeal of the P-51 and so is always put in the back seat when it comes to
WWII fighters.  
One of the best combat planes ever produced in terms of reliability,
firepower, and versatility 
was the Douglas Skyraider.  Amazing (and big) machine if you ever get a
chance to see one 
in action, which I have.  A big reason for its success was its almost
bullet-proof radial engine.

As to Volvo diesels, I can't speak for their truck engines, but the Volvo
Penta series of marine 
engines has nothing to do with the company's association with White, and the
engine line predates 
by many years the White/Volvo organization.  All the Volvo Penta diesels
I've had any association 
with all said "Made in Sweden" on them.

The big "problem" with American engines as I see it is we have always seen
size (displacement) 
as the solution to everything.  So while some American engines have very
good reliability and 
performance statistics, they are usually bigger than they need to be and use
far more fuel than is really 
necessary to accomplish the job.  This was no big deal when fuel was $0.60 a
gallon, but with 
it pushing $2.00 a gallon in some areas of the US, and over US$5 in other
countries, it makes 
much more sense to try to accomplish the work using good engineering rather
than brute force,
as much fun as brute force is to drive.  The Europeans and the Japanese have
been far more 
successful in getting good performance and reliability out of much smaller,
more efficient engines.

Incidentally, another really good US engine in my experience is the Jeep 258
cubic inch six.  I 
don't know if that engine evolved into the more current 4.0 litre Jeep six,
but that's a good powerplant, 
too.

Using the Rover V-8 as an example of a good American engine is not a valid
comparison, because the 
engine as purchased originally from GM was not very good, and is one reason
GM bailed on it.  I 
recall reading in the early 1970s all the things Rover did to the engine
before even putting it into their 
own vehicles, and the list of changes and improvements was pretty
impressive.  Since then, 
of course, they've done even more to it.  So while the engine had its roots
in the US, Rover changed the 
design and construction so much that even from the outset, it was not the
same engine GM had been 
building.  Some parts are interchangeable between the GM version and the
earlier Rover versions, but 
a lot of things, from the cylinder liners to the fuel system, were changed
by Rover as soon as they 
obtained the rights and tooling to produce the engine.

_________________________________________
C. Marin Faure
(original owner)
1973 Land Rover Series III-88
1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
Seattle

--__--__--

Message: 20
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:25:50 -0500
Subject: Re: [lro] terminal shudder
From: Smokey Briggs <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Paul, I put new everything in that I could, railco bush, top pin, lower
bearings, but for the life of me I cannot now remember if the lower pin was
replaceable or a permanent part of the steering arm. If permanent, I did not
replace. Is the lower pin replaceable without replacing sterring arm?

John, I did not know about the stretched bolts problem. All things
considered I think I'll start by renewing the bottom studs.

Everyone, By the way, after looking at my right-hand assembly last night I
notice that I have two bolts and two studs. This does not seem correct from
the parts catalogue I have but I'm not looking at the Green Bible right now.
The left-hand has four studs. Is this a previous owner trick or an
acceptable setup? 

Thanks again to everyone,

Smokey Briggs
Pecos, Texas

--__--__--

Message: 21
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
To: "'Land Rover Mail Group'" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "[email-masked]'" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:42:10 -0700
Subject: [lro] Re: The soul of a Land Rover
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 22:17:39 -0400
To: "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] Re: The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover)
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>If I take a Series Land Rover and replace the frame, the transmission, the 
suspension, the bulkhead and other sundry bits with parts from other Series 
Rovers to repair the vehicle, at which point does it become a different 
truck and not the one I started with? :)

One you replace any of those things, it's not the same vehicle you started with.  But 
that doesn't make it no longer a Land Rover.  Say you buy a new Land Rover and 
six days later get hit by a semi.  Assuming you're still alive to tell about it, when 
your new Land Rover goes into the shop for a rebuild, it's going to get a whole 
lot of new parts on it, from entire body panels to maybe even a new frame (assuming 
the insurance company or your wallet will spring for such extensive repairs).  The 
vehicle that emerges from the repair shop will have quite a lot of parts on it that weren't 
put on by the factory.  So it won't be the same vehicle you bought new such a short time 
ago.  But it will definitely still be a Land Rover, just a "new" one as opposed to the "old" one 
you owned before the accident.

If you enter the lofty world of the vehicle restoration purists, anything you change on your 
Land Rover will reduce its value, from the paint to the frame, at least up to a point.  If the 
bulkhead on your machine is like Swiss cheese, replacing it may enhance the value of your 
Land Rover more than leaving the original bulkhead in.  But in the real world, replacing a worn 
Series transmission with a rebuilt Series transmission is a logical thing to do, and you still have 
a Land Rover when you're done.  And it's pretty much the same Land Rover you started 
with.  But to get picky about it, it's not the exact same vehicle you started with simply 
by virtue of the fact you took off an original component and put on a non-original component.

But I would say that, even though you exchange the bulkhead and frame and springs and whatever 
else for new or rebuilt stock Land Rover components for your model type, you still have the "soul" 
of your original vehicle.  When the original engine in my SIII is no longer serviceable, I will replace it 
with a rebuilt 2.25 engine.  But I will still think of the vehicle as the same one I purchased new so many 
years ago, although technically it won't be.

_________________________________________
C. Marin Faure
(original owner)
1973 Land Rover Series III-88
1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
Seattle

--__--__--

Message: 22
From: "Hope Peter" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] Re: The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land
  Rover)
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:51:02 -0700
Reply-To: [email-masked]

> Quite an essay, and an opinion I've heard before from Marin. Apparantly I
> mis-worded my question.
>
> If I take a Series Land Rover and replace the frame, the transmission, the
> suspension, the bulkhead and other sundry bits with parts from other
Series
> Rovers to repair the vehicle, at which point does it become a different
> truck and not the one I started with? :)
>

If you mean the soul of the vehicle, it's kindofa personal opinion, but I
have always felt its the same vehicle, maybe plussed up by the doations.
Like someone who has had a heart transplant...are they a different person
now?

Now, if you mean legally, that's a State to State issue.  I read once that
in Britain, if you replace X amount of a vehicle at one time, it become a
different vehicle and needs to be reregistered.  What the author had done
was to do it in 3rds over a 3 year period.  At the end he had a totally
different vehicle, but the paperwork said it was still the original and
therefore didn't require the tax disk.

People in the USA have been sort of doing the same thing.  You can get a 110
or 130 from ECR that has a D90 vin and registration.  I am planning on
getting a ragged out 109 and converting it into a 110 by adding in all new
parts.

Pete

--__--__--

Message: 23
From: "Scott Wickham" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:57:01 -0400
Reply-To: [email-masked]

.  Might I sugest that this year we consider a meeting place, or all
agree to wear pink shirts or something to enable mutual recognition.

  The Pittsburgh folks will have a 20' long tent, and a 14' telescopic flag
pole I built the other day.  And about 5-8 tents lying about.

Scooter

--__--__--

Message: 24
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:09:59 -0400
From: Michael Hatton <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] A block heater
Reply-To: [email-masked]

As I near the end of my frameover, I decided to replace the exhaust
manifold while I could still get to it eas=ily. When I took the heat
shield off, I found what looks like a small electrical socket under the
manifold, towards the rear of the engine. Is this a block heater?

Michael Hatton

--__--__--

Message: 25
From: "Rich Williams II" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: [LRO] Air Conditioning in a Series
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:07:34 -0700
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Well it seems as though a detailed write-up of the AC system is warranted as
so many have chimed in on and off list.  To all of those who have inquired,
I will post this to the list and send photos to those who request off-line.

Give me a few days as I am trying to get my 109 to the point of a legitimate
rolling chassis this weekend - argh!  This seems to be taking forever -
stand by for swivel ball assembly rebuild questiosn.

Rich

--__--__--

Message: 26
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
To: [email-masked]
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:19:26 -0400
Reply-To: [email-masked]

  The Pittsburgh folks will have a 20' long tent, and a 14' telescopic flag
pole I built the other day.  And about 5-8 tents lying about.

Scooter

And whatever you do, stay far, far, FAR away from this area......8*)

                              ajr

--__--__--

Message: 27
Date: 28 Sep 2001 10:21:43 -0700
To: [email-masked]
From: Bryan Hoult <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover)
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 28 September 2001, TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:

> 
> 
> >>On a related note, where does the "soul" of a Land Rover reside?
> 
> Well golly.  I was going to pass this thread up, but since C. Marin 
> mentioned me and my LR I might was well put on my gum boots and wade in.
> 
> >It depends on how you approach the definition.
> 
> It does indeed. C. Marin is trying to take the high road of factory 
> originality but rationalizes that converting to a completely non Land 
> Rover suspension system and adding non Land Rover gauges does not take 
> away from being a Land Rover while tinkering with the drive train does.
> 
> I own only two cars.  One is The Green Rover the other is a 1961 Triumph 
> TR3A.
> 
> I hang a lot with the Triumph crowd and attend a lot of British car field 
> meets so I feel I have an idea of where the hobby is.
> 
> There are primarily two camps, the collector and the driver.
> 
> The collector camp seems to view the classic car much as any collector 
> would. Mint unused is best.  With cars mint restored as second best over 
> worn original.  Worn intact originals don't have all that much value 
> unless the vehicle is very rare and/or the collector is a researcher 
> looking for an original research material for documentation.
> 
> For this camp I get the impression the soul comes built in at the factory 
> and is a consumable item that wears away with use. A percentage of the  
> soul can be restored if the vehicle is rebuilt like it came from the 
> factory.  Any modification wounds the soul significantly.  These are the 
> car club members who have pristine cars that mostly get trailered to 
> events and driven only a minimum.
> 
> The other camp believes the soul of a vehicle comes from doing what the 
> vehicle was designed and built to do.   This is what I call the driver 
> group.  They seem to believe that a certain amount of soul comes from the 
> factory but grows and is refined into something even more wonderful 
> through use.  This group largely believes that the soul of a trailer 
> queen is a thin translucent specter of what it could be, locked away from 
> its intended life.
> 
> In this group the soul of a classic British roadster needs wind and 
> tarmac to grow and flourish.  It needs to feel the wind along a mountain 
> road while running through the gears with the tyres barely clinging to 
> the tarmac.  It needs to have a wicker basket on the rear luggage rack 
> and to stop for a summer picnic. The  vehicle needs to spend time at the 
> edge of it's intended use envelope if the soul is to flourish.
> 
> The driver camp runs a full range from those who over restore and drive, 
> those who correctly restore and drive, those who just drive and try to 
> keep the vehicle drivable, those who want a few modifications to fit 
> their personality or special needs and a whole spectrum who reengineer 
> all or part of a vehicle.  
> 
> Of course the people at opposite ends of the driver camp see what each 
> other is doing as not remotely proper but agree that the people in the 
> collector camp are a bit batty.  The people in the collector camp believe 
> the people in the driver camp are not quite right in the head.  They view 
> those who restore and drive with suspicion and those who modify as 
> outright criminals who should be locked away.
> 
> Basically everyone KNOWs their way is best and knows that the farther 
> someone is from their part of the hobby spectrum the more wrong they are.
> 
> I personally am in the driver camp and believe the soul of a vehicle 
> resides both in the driver/owner and the vehicle.  I also believe a 
> vehicle and driver needs to spend time at the edge of it's intended use 
> envelope if that shared soul is to flourish.
> 
> But I also believe that a shared vehicle soul is a highly individualistic 
> thing based upon the innate capabilities of the vehicle, the dreams of 
> the driver and actual shared experiences.  As long as the driver/owner is 
> willing to carry part of the vehicle's soul there is no right or wrong, 
> only individual differences in the shared souls.
> 
> To me the sad examples are where the owner/driver can not or will not 
> take on and nourish part of the vehicle's soul.  The vehicle is relegated 
> to being just a tool.
> 
> For C. Marin, an original drive train is the essence of the soul he 
> shares with his Land Rover.  For me the essence lays primarily in shared 
> experiences and pushing parts of the Land Rover envelope.
> 
> My Land Rover was completely worn out and missing many parts when I 
> rescued her from sinking into the forest humus in early 1978.  Over the 
> years she has worked hard on the ranch then went into a third life as a 
> long range expedition vehicle.  There are very few parts on her that have 
> not worn out and been replaced over her 41 year life.  
> 
> But to me there is a vibrant full bodied soul that My Land Rover shares 
> with me.  Built gradually while stringing fence, mucking the barn, 
> hauling hay, following parts of the Oregon and Majave wagon train trails, 
> climbing boulder cover hills in the Sierra Nevada mountains, slick rock 
> in Majove, camping on Vancouver island, in the Canadian and US Rocky 
> mountains, in the bottom of Canyon de Chilly, in the Vermont woods, in 
> the plains, alongside the northern shores of the Great Lakes and many, 
> many other places.
> 
> To me a vehicles soul resides in shared experiences and is not innately 
> siting in a hunk of iron or an aluminum panel.  The only wrong is not 
> believing.
> 
> 
> 
> TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
> Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
> [email-masked]           I will be sure to read the message
> 
> http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   
> 
> "How can life grant us the boon of living..unless we dare"
> Amelia Earhart 1898-1937
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

--__--__--

Message: 28
Date: 28 Sep 2001 10:23:38 -0700
To: [email-masked]
From: Bryan Hoult <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover)
Reply-To: [email-masked]

On Fri, 28 September 2001, TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:

>There are primarily two camps, the >collector and the driver.

Thank you TeriAnn!

Your analysis is the best I've seen on the all Land Rover vs. component replacement I've seen.

Bryan

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

--__--__--

Message: 29
Subject: Re: [lro] A block heater
To: [email-masked]
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:20:07 -0400
Reply-To: [email-masked]

When I took the heat
shield off, I found what looks like a small electrical socket under the
manifold, towards the rear of the engine. Is this a block heater?

Yup - it is.

No guarantees it works, now....

                  ajr

--__--__--

Message: 30
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:39:30 -0600
To: [email-masked]
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] The soul of a Land Rover (was fixing up a Land Rover)
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>Your analysis is the best I've seen on the all Land Rover vs. component 
>replacement I've seen.

..and it's fairly obvious that I, and most of my friends, are firmly in the 
"driver" camp. In fact, it's one reason I'm driving a Land Rover instead of 
other classic British cars. Using it - and repairing it! - is more 
acceptable to a larger spread of the population :)

Keith

--__--__--

Message: 31
From: "David and Cindi Walker" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:46:55 -0700
Subject: [lro] WOW, soul of the Land Rover!
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I spend a lot of time in this Pub - when I am not out on the road looking at
other cool vehicles, gathering ideas, helping others and playing with my own
stuff. Most of the time, I sit near the wall, talking quietly to those I
know in person, occasionally going over to one of the conversations and
talking directly with the other fellow. Well, thinking about this over the
past day, I am going to slide back my chair and take the floor. This is a
virtual pub - I make no confusion with it and the Land Rover events that I
attend, the Land Rover articles I write, the Land Rover trips I lead and the
people in the Land Rover community that I help out (wow, I'm painting even
more Land Rovers lately!). I do, however, voice my opinions as I would if we
were all in a Pub, together.

This is not aimed at any one person on the list - but rather one of my own
few times that I feel 'compelled' to voice an opinion with the discussion of
engine swaps, souls and grease.......don't worry, it is very infrequent that
I post - although this one is as wordy as some regulars :-) Who should read
on? Well, you know who you are.

Land Rovers are not equal to rare paintings. They are in the top 20 of
highest production runs on this planet, beaten out by a limited selection of
other vehicles, including the Ford Model T, VW Type 1 (Beetle), Austin's
Mini and the Citroen 2CV. Now, my experience in vehicles is not limited to
Land Rover, but encompasses ownership of more than 60 personal vehicles. I
am so serious about the purity of automobiles that I have attended classes
at the Reynolds Museum, in vehicle restoration - the Reynolds is regarded as
one of the top three automotive museums in the world for 'correct'
restoration (the other two are the Mercedes Museum - Germany - and the
Ford - Dearborn - Museum) and is Internationally respected. The Reynolds has
won awards and is the only one of the three that does not specialize in one
Marquee. I also attend all types of car/boat/vehicle/airplane shows, events
and have interests (and collectibles) in automobilia, static engines,
literature and more!

A humbling experience (well, at least for me) was to attend the annual
gathering in Port Angeles for the American Horseless Carriage Club. For a 7
day period, they drive these vehicles all over the Olympic Peninsula,
including in the mountains and over to Victoria by ferry. No car is newer
than 1915 (try thinking the word 'classic' about your Land Rover when you
are with these folks). I mean, to see some couple put 500 miles on their
1902 Oldsmobile in the week is impressive - they average 10 flat tires in
that
time. My Land Rover is almost 70 years newer than the Olds. They told me
that they do start of day maintenance for 1/2-1 hour, end of day for 1.5
hours and an additional 50 hours before and after the week to keep the cars
running so well. That made checking the gear oil in the Land Rover seem
trivial. The Model T club in Seattle tells me they have 4 members who use
their T's as daily drivers!

Opinions as to what makes a Land Rover a Land Rover, abound............but,
we are not talking about a Tucker (seen three of them) or a Ford Model N
(seen one of the three left) or other vehicles that are equally rare that I
have had the privilege to touch, sit in or ride in. When it comes to a
custom modification - well - I think that the soul of the Land Rover may
well dwell in the spirit of the owner. Since the opinion of owners of some
'classics' was tossed out to this forum, I see no reason as to not toss out
some other 'expert' opinions. Here, some of you might find some interesting
automotive history and what defines (or not) a car design.

American LaFrance (ALF) built Fire engines. They started building them with
engines in 1910. In September of 1911 they built their first sportscar. In
the cars first race, another vehicle went out of control and the race ended
with 11 people killed. That first and only ALF race car is in a museum near
Cleveland - so here is the point. In the 1930's, ALF trucks could be had
cheaply and made reliable (if somewhat huge) race cars when built by their
owners. ALF sports cars are recognized as collectable, valuable (even though
they are owner built) authentic! production (yes, production class) racers.
They are still!! used in mountain races in Europe - those big 14.5L engines
pull the cars to trophy awards. So, maybe that is a little too remote and
esoteric to compare making a fire truck into a race car with a Land Rover
with engine modifications. ALF racers exist, racing today - although there
is only one ever built.

Now, in the true sense, is it the running gear that makes the car? How about
the body? How about where it is built? How about if the engine and body come
from different countries? How about if only one version were done? So, if
the engine and drive train define a Land Rover as a "Land Rover" - then
would tearing off the aluminum LR body and replacing it with a more
streamlined body make it a Land Rover or not? Now, if an individual follows
the course of a car manufacturer (like the ALF example) and makes vehicles
in their 'image' of a rare model then can you really be taking away the
'soul' of the vehicle?

Rolls-Royce (and Cadillac, to mention just a couple of the dozens) supplied
their running gear to many other coach builders who kept the name of the
manufacturer - regardless that the manufacturer was building their own
production bodies, but an Austin A40 running gear would become a (yikes,
American!) Nash with a different body. More confusing, if a car manufacturer
could not settle on what to do about the running gear, but retained the
body, should it still be the (fit in the name of one) car...............how
about the Volvo P1800 (would that be a Volvo or a Jensen)? Hudson got more
power for their Hornet by fitting in a Packard V8, from the factory. How
about if they take the body but change (improve) the engine/drivetrain -
like Gordini did for Renault or Shelby did for Ford? What the heck is a
'Blue Bird' bus or a MC8 if you are allowed to use different engines and
drivetrains? Perhaps the only Land Rover series with a V8 should be
Goldenrod?

Well, before I totally digress, there is the opinion, in the world of real
automobile collectibles (like museums, not Las Vegas) Land Rovers have only
a couple of homes for their true rare gems. If you read this far, I will now
say what I really think.

What we need on this list and in the automotive world is more poo-pooer's (I
am being sarcastic, ok). We need more people who poo-poo on any new ideas -
that way there will be no more ALF's made into racers, no more Gordini's or
Shelby's added after the car manufacturers name. Arguable, poo-pooing is
what kept Land Rover from being competitive in the world and has seen it's
ownership change - just like Jeep! Poo-pooing has lead to the fine choices
of automobiles that we have today, the 'classic' Reliant K car, the Neon,
Hondas, that fine roadster, the Miata and the other scads of mass produced,
characterless rubbish.
You own a Land Rover to be distinct, yet within our own group we risk
crushing distinction. For most of us in North America, in consideration for
how we use our Land Rovers, a Chevy Blazer makes a more reliable, cheaper
88" and a Suburban is a bigger, powerful version of the 109". As to yet, it
does not seem that the value of Series Land Rovers is broken buy the
swapping of engines. Engine swaps in any vehicle seem to attack this
criticism because it is easy to find poor ones (a good requires money, hard
work and planning). At the Portland ABFM there was a Morris Minor that had a
V6 in it!!, the swap looked great, was drivable and made the car more
valuable than a 'clean' version. To comfort a few, there will be plenty of
'original' examples of Land Rovers left, don't worry. To those who think of
'modifying' them - well there were a lot of Rods built in the past 50 years
and there is fine, original examples of ANY vehicle that was ever been
turned into a Hot Rod. Here is a safe rule that should work well with this
list - and make sense to anyone truly into cars - if there was more than
50,000 of a vehicle built, you can do just about what ever you want to them
and there will still be plenty of good original examples left. There was
only one ALF racer and that one is still around after 90 years. In the
automotive church of worship, praise and recognize the true rare ones and
stop holding the false ones up so high. It's just a Land Rover. For every
converted NADA 109 there are still other original ones - for every original
Series 3, there's plenty more where that one was built.

As I put on my flame proof suit, I will make myself even a better (moving?)
target.
I have a 1970 IIA88" with the original engine (got it running after
12 years of sitting, without removing the head!) with the original carb,
that has the original transmission, TC, drive shafts and front diff - along
with a load of other parts. "Bean Toad" is my daily driver and I drive it
long distances, up to 30,000 miles per year! Like Teri-Ann, I have travelled
extensively and trouble free with my 88". I have gone to the trouble to
fit the 'newer' Fairey Capstan because it is more period correct for the
vehicle than the Areoparts. I am convinced that the engine and drivetrain in
my 88" are great and would only replace them with the same. That was my bid
for the 'keep it original' camp.
My 1967 109 is undergoing a different route. I removed the NADA engine that
would 'eventually', undeniable have messed with me in some remote place
where they only spoke American or Canadian. I also wanted a vehicle that
could tow with and travel well. My 109 has a Chev 250 (kept with the six
theme), a turbo 350 (had to get a different tranny, why not auto?), a Dana
18 TC (hey, that one exits on the same side as the one that I took out!),
Stage One rear diff and RR front diff. So, is my 109 still a Land Rover -
oh, yeah, down to the oilbath, cast aluminum valve cover and 4 speed floor
shifter (for those who think that I no longer have a 109 Land Rover, refer
to the French response in Monty Python).

I never bought any vehicles that I ended up 'hating', some were just cooler,
more fun or fitting for me than others at the time. Current vehicles include
1971 Mercedes 404 Unimog (the newest vehicle we own by year!), 1967 Mercedes
250s, 1963 Citroen 2CV, 1970 LR IIA 88", 1967 LR IIA 109" and 1956 Carpenter
bodied GMC bus. We don't have a new Mini van/Honda/Range Rover for reliable'
driving, nor want one.

As to the hub lube debate, use nothing and you can still buy the parts, it's
not a Studebaker or Maple Leaf or FWD! after all!........mixing CV joint
grease with 80/90 wt to the consistence that does not fly out , but rather
oozes out for me........
Oh, and Land Rovers have no soul as they are remade by man (and woman) in
our own image and contain the many and varied imperfections :-)

Mr. Speaker, Gentleman, Ladies, I now return to the gallery.

My $1.29 (been saving those .02's for some time, like near 2 years since I
used to post to the list - and listened to aircraft engine discussions,
parts debates, firearms discussions, grease oil debates - and yet again, the
what makes a Land Rover debate).

Want to know more about the Reynolds? They have a cool Aircraft hall of fame
as well as over 1000 vehicles yet to be restored!
http://www.cd.gov.ab.ca/enjoying_alberta/museums_historic_sites/site_listing
s/reynolds_alberta_museum/information/index.asp - that's a long one.
http://www.cahf.ca/ - airplanes, for those interested
For the workshop, take the full set - well worth the travel and money. When
the Americans find out about these full workshops (2nd year now) they will
never be this cheap again! It gives new meaning to 'correct' when restoring
a vehicle - the bar is so high here.
http://www.cd.gov.ab.ca/enjoying_alberta/museums_historic_sites/site_listing
s/reynolds_alberta_museum/restoration_workshops/index.asp

Want to come visit and see my (getting larger) display of 'stuff'?
I'm near Seattle.

Cheers,

David

[email-masked]
end of message

--__--__--

Message: 32
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:07:57 -0400
From: asfco <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [lro] Block Heaters ATT: Sandy Grice
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Now that the weather is starting to get cooler its time for Sandy Grice
to make what has become a yearly tradition.....the posting of block
heater info and part numbers
Rgds
Steve Bradke '68 lla 88
still sitting in the garage (But all together and running)

--__--__--

Message: 33
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 14:58:58 -0400
From: "RON WARD" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
Reply-To: [email-masked]

Contrary to earlier reports, the Ward clan from Georgia will be under the enormous Gadsden flag, sporting a single tent, two Rovers and big cooler of Coor's Light.  Flame on!

>>> [email-masked] 09/28/01 12:57PM >>>

.  Might I sugest that this year we consider a meeting place, or all
agree to wear pink shirts or something to enable mutual recognition.

  The Pittsburgh folks will have a 20' long tent, and a 14' telescopic flag
pole I built the other day.  And about 5-8 tents lying about.

Scooter
_______________________________________________
LRO mailing list
[email-masked] 
http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 34
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 15:20:20 -0400
From: Rob MacCormick <[email-masked]>
Organization: Boston College
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] WOW, soul of the Land Rover!
Reply-To: [email-masked]

David I read with interest your message  "Re: WOW, soul of a Land Rover!"
It's Friday afternoon here and my only comment is: mmmmmm.........Pub

Rob MacCormick
Concord, MA

--__--__--

Message: 35
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:06:01 +0100
Reply-To: [email-masked]

the lro-list people all wear a cd round our necks (on a string before anyone
jumps in) on their hat or wherever, so we can recognise people we only know
virtually...

btw we also have one on our vehicles 'cos there are lots of Land Rover
people inthis country not on the list...
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Wickham <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR

>
> .  Might I sugest that this year we consider a meeting place, or all
> agree to wear pink shirts or something to enable mutual recognition.
>
>
>   The Pittsburgh folks will have a 20' long tent, and a 14' telescopic
flag
> pole I built the other day.  And about 5-8 tents lying about.
>
> Scooter
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 36
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 19:08:35 +0100
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I don't possess a pink shirt...
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR

>
> Pink?  I will not wear a pink shirt, me bucko.....8*)
>
> Look for the crazy man with a fedora, blue Range Rover and a 30-odd year
od
> caravan.....that will be me.
>
>                               ajr
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 37
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] air conditioning
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:06:36 +0100
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I have a cheap 3.95ukp fan on the dashboard,
cool air when moving from opening the vents. when stopped on goes the fan...

I get to use it for a few days every year :-(>
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

----- Original Message -----
From: William L Leacock <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 1:03 AM
Subject: [lro] air conditioning

>
> Rich writes:
> Okay don't laugh - but with the recent discussions about V6 and V8 motors
> as
> a way to increase HP I've been wondering about the possibilities of
> adding
> AC to Series trucks.
>
>   My employers claim to have produced the first under hood air
> conditioning system for  a  vehicle in 1954 (Pontiac). What they do not
> know is that Rover beat them to it in 1948.  The simple expedient of
> puting holes in the bulkhead (firewall) gave all the air conditioning
> required for the UK, elsewhere they just took the top off. Then in 1955
> Rover introduced external air conditioning which they still use today on
> the Defenders. (simply because there was no power to spare for frivolous
> add ons) This system also keeps the environmental lobby happy since there
> is no energy cost involved in operating it.
>
> Regards from Western New York State
>
>   Bill Leacock.
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 38
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] Re: The soul of a Land Rover
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 20:42:59 +0100
Reply-To: [email-masked]

You write: >>>If I take a Series Land Rover and replace the frame, the
transmission, the
> suspension, the bulkhead and other sundry bits with parts from other
Series
> Rovers to repair the vehicle, at which point does it become a different
> truck and not the one I started with? :)<<<

it's you doing all that replacing - you carry the soul around with you.

In the UK where we have a heck of a lot more Land Rovers (don't ask me why,
it just happened) I get in and out of lots of Land Rovers without a soul at
all.
 Without an owner to put the soul into the vehicle it's just a bunch of
metal, plastic and wires...

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

--__--__--

Message: 39
From: "Peter Ogilvie" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] terminal shudder
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:00:58 -1000
Reply-To: [email-masked]

One of my steering arms loosened up early on.  The nuts didn't loosen, the 
studs screwed themselves out like a bolt.  I was really bummed because 
they'd been loose long enough for the threads to become quite sloopy.  I 
double nutted the studs and screwed them back in with Super LocTite.  
They've held for about 15 years even with worn railco bushes over the last 
few years.  Hope I never have to take the studs out, though.

Aloha
Peter Ogilvie
Kona Coffee Rover
1970 88 soft top, 'huli' Mine since '84 but recovering
     from exposure of the dark side.
1966 109 pickup 'slime'  In my garage since '90, finally running.
1965 88 parts car, slowly sinking into the lava.
196? 88 hard top, possibly 'phoenix' if it rises, it will
     certainly be from ashes or at least a pile of rust

>From: Smokey Briggs <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: <[email-masked]>
>Subject: Re: [lro] terminal shudder
>Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 11:25:50 -0500
>
>
>Thanks to everyone for the advice.
>
>Paul, I put new everything in that I could, railco bush, top pin, lower
>bearings, but for the life of me I cannot now remember if the lower pin was
>replaceable or a permanent part of the steering arm. If permanent, I did 
>not
>replace. Is the lower pin replaceable without replacing sterring arm?
>
>John, I did not know about the stretched bolts problem. All things
>considered I think I'll start by renewing the bottom studs.
>
>Everyone, By the way, after looking at my right-hand assembly last night I
>notice that I have two bolts and two studs. This does not seem correct from
>the parts catalogue I have but I'm not looking at the Green Bible right 
>now.
>The left-hand has four studs. Is this a previous owner trick or an
>acceptable setup?
>
>Thanks again to everyone,
>
>Smokey Briggs
>Pecos, Texas
>_______________________________________________
>LRO mailing list
>[email-masked]
>http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

--__--__--

Message: 40
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:37:00 +0100
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] Fixing up a Land Rover
From: Paul <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: [email-masked]

In article <[email-masked]>, Bill Adams wrote:
> British horsepower = expensive, unreliable, hard to source, usually
> relies on American technology, leaks.
> American horsepower = cheap, easy to come by, lots of aftermarket
> support, reliable, things fit together, doesn't leak.
>

Isn`t it strange how it`s the opposite way round with jet engines?

;)

Rolls-Royce Rule!

Paul Lonsdale

EX-H.M.Coastguard SIII SWB
B895 OJT "Dougal"

--__--__--

Message: 41
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:02:01 +0100
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I meant the uk-lro list people, of course....
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Elson <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [lro] MAR

>
> the lro-list people all wear a cd round our necks (on a string before
anyone
> jumps in) on their hat or wherever, so we can recognise people we only
know
> virtually...
>
> btw we also have one on our vehicles 'cos there are lots of Land Rover
> people inthis country not on the list...
> Best Cheers
>
> Frank
>     +--+--+--+
>      I !__|  [_]|_\___
>      I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
>      "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Scott Wickham <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 5:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [lro] MAR
>
>
> >
> > .  Might I sugest that this year we consider a meeting place, or all
> > agree to wear pink shirts or something to enable mutual recognition.
> >
> >
> >   The Pittsburgh folks will have a 20' long tent, and a 14' telescopic
> flag
> > pole I built the other day.  And about 5-8 tents lying about.
> >
> > Scooter
> > _______________________________________________
> > LRO mailing list
> > [email-masked]
> > http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro
> _______________________________________________
> LRO mailing list
> [email-masked]
> http://land-rover.team.net/mailman/listinfo/lro

--__--__--

Message: 42
From: "N Forbes" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: Fixing up a Land Rover
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 22:00:35 +0000
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>It WAS a Land Rover.  It ain't now.....:-)
>
>Marin Faure
>1973 Series III Model 88
>1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

Hahahaha. I just KNEW that was coming as soon as I read the original email.

Niall Forbes
66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
The Nova Scotian Rover - http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/intro.htm

"See the happy moron,
He doesn't give a damn.
I wish I were a moron.
My God! Perhaps I am!"
--author unknown

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

--__--__--

Message: 43
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 01 16:23:17 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
To: " mendo rec list" <[email-masked]>, "LRO list"
  <[email-masked]>
Subject: [lro] Weights
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I played hooky from working today to build a couple new pages to my 
personal web site.

I mention this because one contains data that can be a little hard to 
come by.  It has the factory weight data for all the standard models 
built for 1972

The table includes unleaden weight, max gross weight for road work, and 
max gross weight for cross country, all broken down into front axle 
weight, rear axle weight and total weight.

TO that I added max total payload at each axle & total for the vehicle as 
well as the Land Rover part numbers for the springs used under each model.

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman/LR/springs.htm

On the second page I interpolated the data from the first as it applies 
to each leaf spring and created a table with aproximate design weight 
ranges for each spring.  It provides an approximation that can let you 
pick springs that would be best for your individual Land Rover.

I would appricate feedback on this second page in case someone thinks I'm 
off base or has additional relavent info to add.

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman/LR/spring_rates.htm

Take care

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
[email-masked]           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   

"How can life grant us the boon of living..unless we dare"
Amelia Earhart 1898-1937

--__--__--

Message: 44
From: "N Forbes" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] RE: Fixing up a Land Rover
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:25:07 +0000
Reply-To: [email-masked]

>When I lived in Boulder, Colorado some years ago there was a
>mountaineering store I shopped at that sold a t-shirt..... "He who >dies 
>with the most toys wins."

I should think that his heir would be the real winner ;-)

Niall Forbes
66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
The Nova Scotian Rover - http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/intro.htm

"See the happy moron,
He doesn't give a damn.
I wish I were a moron.
My God! Perhaps I am!"
--author unknown

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

--__--__--

Message: 45
From: "N Forbes" <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [lro] Re: Fixing up a Land Rover
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 00:46:37 +0000
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I can't believe  that with all the discussions we have about other engines 
one this list, the straight six out of a Jeep does not get mentioned more 
often. They seem to be super engines. They certainly have enough power, 
especially in recent applications. I'm surprised it's not a more common 
candidate for conversions.

Niall Forbes
66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
The Nova Scotian Rover - http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/intro.htm

"See the happy moron,
He doesn't give a damn.
I wish I were a moron.
My God! Perhaps I am!"
--author unknown

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

--__--__--

Message: 46
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
To: "'Land Rover Mail Group'" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 17:55:20 -0700
Subject: [lro] 2.6 engine
Reply-To: [email-masked]

I have an opportunity to buy from a friend of mine in the UK a Series III 109 pickup
with the 2.6 litre six cylinder engine at an extremely reasonable price.  My friend simply 
wants to get the thing off his property because it's in the way.  According to him, 
the 2.6 is a nice-running, smooth engine with a noticeable increase in power over the 
2.25 four. A 109 with the 2.25 has a pretty tough time getting out of its own way, but 
I'm told that a 109 with the six has halfway decent performance, at least for a Land 
Rover.  I'm told this particular vehicle started and ran fine the last time it was moved, but 
it has almost 83,000 miles on it.  My friend can't remember if the engine underwent an 
overhaul at some point while it was still in regular service.

While I am very much undecided if I want to mess with yet another vehicle,
let alone another Land Rover, I'm rather intrigued by this one because of the engine.  
The NADA version of the Rover six earned a bad reputation in the US for burning 
pistons, particularly numbers 5 and 6.  However, the lower 
compression version used in Europe, which this particular 109 has in it, does not 
seem to have the burning problem.  On the other hand, parts for this engine were 
hard to get in the US in the best of times, and seem to be almost extinct today.  
Rovers North lists a few gaskets and whatnot for the 2.6, but nothing else.

The friend who has the thing says that 2.6 parts are still available in the UK, but he 
has no idea how easy they are to hunt down as he phased Series Land Rovers out 
of his operation ages ago and has no interest in them today.  So I'm curious if any 
of the UK members of this list have any idea how plentiful or scarce 2.6 parts are 
over there.  My SIII shop manual covers the 2.6 as well as the 2.25 petrol and diesel, 
so I would have the information needed to work on it should I decide to 
acquire the thing.  But if obtaining parts- water pump, fuel pump, distributor, valves, 
valve guides, piston rings, and carburetor bits are the sorts of things that come to mind- 
is an expensive challenge, or will be soon, then the vehicle is not worth importing 
and messing with.

I'm not interested in re-powering it.  For the time, effort, and expense of doing that, 
I could buy a good, used US pickup of some sort, and since I already have one (except 
for its crappy 300 cubic inch six engine), there is no reason to go that route.

_________________________________________
C. Marin Faure
(original owner)
1973 Land Rover Series III-88
1991 Range Rover Vogue SE

--__--__--

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