Subject: LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #428

From: [email-masked] (LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * *)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 02:19:52 -0400

LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * Saturday, June 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 428

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:30:31 -0600
From: Ivan Van Laningham <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Piston engines

Hi All--

> "Coates, Clinton" wrote:
> 
> Marin, you said it right.
> 
> I never look up for jets or turboprops, unless I happen to be working
> on the Mountain Home Air Weapons Range, that is....  But whenever the
> Thbbpbpbbpbppp of a piston engine, especially a rotary, comes along,
> all work stops while I work on the crick in my neck....
>

<g>  I look up when I hear the "whup-whup-whup" of a Huey.  Or the whine
of a Cobra.

<nostalgic-for-all-the-wrong-things>-ly y'rs,
Ivan;-)
- ----------------------------------------------
Ivan Van Laningham
Symantec
http://www.pauahtun.org 
http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/proceedings.html
Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:37:32 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: LRO: Re: new guy stuff

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Simon wrote:

<<But all of this is no reason to be rude to a new person interested in 
series rigs.   Especially someone into Scouts.>>

My father told of his days as an aviation cadet in 1942, that they did not 
swat at flies and mosquitoes since they were fellow aviators.  

The man with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds.  Mark Twain

Paul Donohue
1965 Land Rover 109
Denver

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Simon wrote:
<BR>
<BR>&lt;&lt;But all of this is no reason to be rude to a new person interested in 
<BR>series rigs. &nbsp;&nbsp;Especially someone into Scouts.&gt;&gt;
<BR>
<BR>My father told of his days as an aviation cadet in 1942, that they did not 
<BR>swat at flies and mosquitoes since they were fellow aviators. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>The man with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds. &nbsp;Mark Twain
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Paul Donohue
<BR>1965 Land Rover 109
<BR>Denver</FONT></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:21:45 -0400
From: William L Leacock <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: 2.6 engine

Does anyone know what a good running 80,000 mile 2.6 Land Rover Straight
Six engine is worth. It is out of the vehicle.

About 1 cent a pound for scrap and 2 cents a pound as a boat anchor.
 
Regards from Western New York State

  Bill Leacock.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:54:30 -1000
From: "Hope Peter" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: War Over Galvanizing Strange New French Guy

> the jeep was the original light four wheel drive vehicle originally
conceived
> for use on the battlefields of WWII.  companies such as willys, bantam,
ford,
> and others were all took on the challenge. as many know, the willys design
> won the contract and they were produced under the wills name and later the
> ford name also.

Sorry, the design for the Jeep that was accepted by the War Department was
the one by Bantam.  Bantam didn't have the facilities to produce as many as
the Government needed so the Gov gave the contract to Willys, but building
Bantam's design.
Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:45:45 -0400
From: William L Leacock <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Smooth 6

Sandy writes That may very well be...the Rover P-5 engine (the 3.0 litre
six) used to be
advertised as so smooth running that a 10 shilling piece (I think that
was
the coin....) 

Sorry Sandy, in the days when they made the ROVER 3 litre, ten bob was a
note.  The coin frequently used in those gimmicky trials was a 3 penny
piece which had ten or twelve sides so it stood up easily.

 ISTR from several decades ago when I went to school that the six is
smooth because the vibration forces from the crank roatationt are
naturally in closed balance.

Regards from Western New York State

  Bill Leacock.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:54:05 -0400
From: "James G.Wolf" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Aluminum

>>(chosen because aluminum was cheaper in post war europe than steel).

Read in one of my earlier books that there was a huge stockpile of aircraft
alloy  sheet metal
left after everybody decided to stop fighting. They stopped building all
those wonderful (vintage) WWII war birds. So, Rover motors bought the lot and
Birmabright AKA aircraft alloy sheet metal was the metal of choice for the
first
Landy's. There was a shortage of steel, I suppose the sheet steel that one
could make
frames (chassis) out of and that's where the box channel came from. I
suppose it takes less
material to make that style of frame. Will poke around in my Landy books to
see if I can come up with
a title or two and will post when I find.

Jim Wolf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:05:29 -1000
From: "Hope Peter" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Prejudices wasKinda Long and Opinionated Leaf/Coil comments bewarned

>With all respect to Peter H. can't see anything wider than a
> 9.5" tire on a 2 1/4 powered series truck.

I totally agree with Peter O on this.  I think that the BFG 33x9.50 is the
perfect size tire for MY rover.  Just about th same size as the 900x16's
from the military.
Unfortunately they where on 2 month back order when I needed tires.  Even
tried the email places back on the mainland, no luck.
So I got the 33x12.5.
When I get to Seattle I plan on swapping them for the 33x9.50s.
Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:16:28 -1000
From: "Hope Peter" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO:  Galvy

Discussion of galv-ing bulkheads and breakfast reminded me...
Has anyone galv-ed their door and window frames?
Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:36:01 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Galvy

I know that Gord'n Perrot in Seattle does it.  Actually, everything steel
gets dipped - it's his mantra, and one that is hard to argue with.  He also
is probably the only LRO around who has an "in" with the galvy shop who
won't do anything "car related" for anyone else.

Rich
'60 SII 109sw

> Discussion of galv-ing bulkheads and breakfast reminded me...
> Has anyone galv-ed their door and window frames?
> Pete
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:42:59 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: New Guy or All about Joe

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:52:27 -0400
From: "Rodrigo Bejarano" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: New Guy or All about Joe

>"SIII doesn't look enough like a Defender "...... Defenders must be really
different in the States...

My point wasn't that Defenders look different than Series, it 
was that the average Defender buyer can't see the resemblance...:-)
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:50:00 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Farm gate clearance

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:11:49 -0700
From: "G. Mugele" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Farm gate clearance

At 10:13 AM -0700 6/29/01, Faure, Marin wrote:
>>Someone suggested the Land Rover was sized deliberately to
>fit through the farm gates in the UK.  I suspect this was not actually
>a consideration.  The Land Rover was sized to be the same as the
>Jeep it was based on, as well as the average width of other vehicles
>of that day. 

>They are not the same even though the Land Rover was based on the 
Jeep.  For the record Marin; from Graham Robson's 1976 "The Land 
Rover, Workhorse of the World"

I realize the two vehicles are not identical in frame dimensions, but 
a difference of a couple of inches in my book is close enough to be 
considered "the same" in the context I meant it in.  But thanks for 
posting the actual dimensions.

I think your California vineyard theory is spot on.  However, I don't 
think it was so much the increase in row dimension that caused Rover 
to pull out of the US in 1974, but the fact that that was the year the wineries 
stopped supplying the west coast Land Rover dealers and reps with free 
samples.  No wine, no Rovers.
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:21:58 -0500
From: "Andrew H. Litkowiak" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Leaf vs coil attitude, you guys have it made

Interesting comments by Perrone.

I'll give you another perspective from another marquee.

In the Land Cruiser community, the exact opposite is true. Shorties and leaf
spring wagon owners drool over the later coil sprung trucks (FJ80 & FZJ100
Series), waiting for those models to hit the market used so they can be bought
and wheeled.

The coil sprung owners (for the most part) know nothing of the history, nor do
they care about it. 1 in 10,000 will ever touch anything rougher than a graded
gravel road. 

I believe the difference is in manufacturer support. In the US, Land Rover is
extremely supportive of the entire family of trucks, form Series I to the 2002
models. History and purpose drive your advertising. The relationship between old
and new is wallowed in. LR supports the magazines, events, etc. A new customer
walking into the showroom will leave with a certain knowledge level concerning
Land Rover roots. It's all part of the mystique.

Toyota, on the other hand, seems to be moderately embarrassed about the Land
Cruiser roots. Although they did celebrate history one year, for the most part
they attempt to distance the late model luxo mall crawlers from their parents
and grandparents.

The TLCA is the largest single 4 wheel drive club in the country. I'm sure there
are more collective local jeep club members, but not under a single tent. I
believe the same is true of Land Rover. You would think that Toyota would bend
over backwards to support a 4000+ member organization devoted to Toyota's most
profitable (per vehicle) line, in the US and worldwide.

Ha! In 26 years, they've place one stinking ad in the national newsletter. They
make it incredibly difficult to purchase "discontinued" parts that are readily
available as close as Canada and Central America. For years, they refused to
even acknowledge the existence of the organization to Cruiser owners seeking
help (that was not available through their local dealer).

I could go on and on. You guys have it made. Count your blessings and be
grateful that so much variety is available to you. Be grateful that the coil and
spring clans even recognize the other's vehicle as a Rover. Think of how it
would feel for a Series owner to greet and Defender owner, only to discover that
the Defender owner didn't even know the two were related. That happens to us
Toyota leaf spring folk on a daily basis.

Andy Litkowiak

Perrone Ford wrote:
> 
> Marin,
> 
>    While I respect you a lot as you bring a lot of experience to the list, it
> pains me that your statements ring true.  I know many leafers don't care about
> coiler guys, and that permeates with your attitudes.  It seeps into the
> persona of off-road events, and generally makes for a difficult time planning
> events between the two groups.  Those of us who own coil-sprung rovers and
> actually are enthusiasts tend to appreciate the series trucks and learn what
> we can about the heritage of our marque.  It seems that in large part, the
> series guys would rather pretend that we don't exist or we are not "real" land
> rover enthusiasts.  I don't know if its envy, disdain, or elitism, but it
> really is distateful.  I'd stop in a heartbeat to help any motorist, but with
> some of the attitudes on this list toward coil sprung rovers and their owners,
> I don't know why I would bother to stop for a series.
> 
> Maybe thats why coil sprung guys don't wave more to you guys.
> 
> -P
> 
> Faure, Marin wrote:
> 
> > Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 22:14:33 -0400
> > From: "Perrone Ford" <[email-masked]>
> > Subject: RE: LRO: New Guy or All about Joe
> >
> >> I wouldn't DREAM of walking onto this list and telling you guys about
> >>
> > your series trucks, but I don't have ANY hesitation in telling you that as a
> > whole, it seems you guys are GROSSLY misinformed about what is available for
> > coil sprung trucks, and you really don't seem to have any idea of what they
> > can do when the playing field is made even.
> > Of course, you are making the assumption that those of us with leaf-sprung
> > Series Land Rover CARE about coil-sprung Land Rovers....:-)  I suspect
> >

------------------------------

Date: 29 Jun 2001 18:24:54 -0700
From: Bryan Hoult <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Re: New Guy or All about Joe

On Fri, 29 June 2001, "Faure, Marin" wrote:

>B) the only reason he bought it is >because it's expensive and the >Microsoft newsletter 

How the heck are you getting the MS News at Boeing - I knew they were in cahoots....antitrust!....antitrust!

BTW I drive through MS traffic everyday and pass the same yellow and green Defender.  You're right, I never got a wave back when I used to try.

Bryan
62 88
70 109 "Genie"

________________________________________________
PeoplePC:  It's for people. And it's just smart. 
http://www.peoplepc.com 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:30:55 -0400
From: "Robert McCullough" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Straight Six (was New Guy....)

what's the big deal about balancing a coin on its side with a 2.6? i'm
perfectly content with my almost vibration free 2 1/4 diesel. NOW!!! can't
we all just get along?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:35:14 -0400
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Spares for a long trip

I'm going to be driving Basil from Ottawa to Colorado at some point this 
summer - I'm moving out to the land of hot and rocks (instead of bugs and 
mud). So I'll be doing 2000 miles of interstate driving with a chase car (a 
Miata - all it'll need will be gas)

What spares should I bring along for the trip? Any suggestions for 
preparation?

Basil's details:
1967 IIa 88" petrol
new alternator, new brake system, new clutch hydraulics and clutch
spin-on oil filter, new fuel filter, Solex with a sticky float that will be 
fixed :)

Keith Tanner
- ------------
Keith's page de home:
    http://keith.miata.net
- ------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 01 18:51:03 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO:  Kinda Long and Opinionated Leaf/Coil comments bewarned

> I know many leafers don't care
>about coiler guys, and that permeates with your attitudes.  It seeps into
>the persona of off-road events, and generally makes for a difficult time
>planning events between the two groups.

A part of it is that coiler drivers like to convoy on highways at 75 MPH. 
 That's WAY fast for just about every series rig except for one  normally 
asperated 2.25L 109 diesel I know of.  With their real high gearing 
coilers tend to trail faster too.  Give them 4.7 rings & pinions and a 55 
mph highway speed governer and the coiler people would probably fit in 
with series people a lot better.

Oh and I do NOT want to hear another story about how crappy a coiler rig 
is because it has a little leak around the door or one of the motors 
adjusting the seat is not working.

TeriAnn Near Santa Cruz, California

My old car 1960 Land Rover 109 owned since 1978
My new car 1961 Triumph TR3A owned since 1986
  "Who could ask for anything more"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 01 18:56:08 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Re: New Guy or All about Joe

>I also had to chuckle at your comment about newer trucks "idleing" 
>through obstacles because in my experience, unless we're dealing with 
>extreme climbs, it's the Series drivers who idle and finess their way 
>through--the Coilers use gobs of wellie and brute force. Not saying 
>either is necessarily wrong--just an observation.

But I suspect that it is an observation based mostly upon the difference 
between 3.5 & 4.7 ring & pinions.  With coiler gearing idling is way fast.

TeriAnn Wakeman               Marigold Ltd.
Santa Cruz, California        Web design, site updating, testing
[email-masked]      search engine optimization, graphics
                              and more

http://www.overlander.net/Marigold/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:56:11 -1000
From: "Hope Peter" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Video Noise & Compression [OT](was Re: LRO: Land Rover video)

Jeff,
thankyou for all the info.  I understand much better now.  :-)
Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 01 19:03:07 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Prejudices wasKinda Long and Opinionated Leaf/Coil comments bewarned

>Are big FAT tires really better for off roading 

It really depends upon your terrain and how deep the mushy stuff goes.  
In general, if you are in deep muck you want to try and stay on top 
digging forward faster than digging downward.  In shallow muck you want 
to dig down to the firm stuff.

TeriAnn Wakeman               Marigold Ltd.
Santa Cruz, California        Web design, site updating, testing
[email-masked]      search engine optimization, graphics
                              and more

http://www.overlander.net/Marigold/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:07:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Spares for a long trip

On Fri, 29 Jun 2001, Keith Tanner wrote:

:I'm going to be driving Basil from Ottawa to Colorado at some point this
:summer - I'm moving out to the land of hot and rocks (instead of bugs and
:mud). So I'll be doing 2000 miles of interstate driving with a chase car (a
:Miata - all it'll need will be gas)
:
:What spares should I bring along for the trip? Any suggestions for
:preparation?
:
:Basil's details:
:1967 IIa 88" petrol
:new alternator, new brake system, new clutch hydraulics and clutch
:spin-on oil filter, new fuel filter, Solex with a sticky float that will be
:fixed :)

ear protection
a toolkit.  (a good one)
an axle set of brake shoes
a hub seal kit
axle shafts
rebuild kits for all the hydraulic bits (or spares)
fuel pump or rebuild kit
engine oil (enough for change, more if you leak) +filter
gear lube
If you've got an overdrive, the bits you need if it breaks.
random electrical bits - wire, terminals, crimp tool, mult meter
Ignition bits -- plugs, wires, points, condensor,cap
cell phone
AAA membership card
luck
Water pump
Any other spares you've got that will fit (I'm led to believe a cylider head
and gasket set is handy.)

That's pretty much my spares kit.  It generally seems to be enough, except
when I'm not carrying the head or overdrive bits.

- -- 
[email-masked]
Bipedalism is only a fad.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:17:38 -0600
From: "Coates, Clinton" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Electrickery

Thanks all for the thoughts and discussion on retro wiring my rover.  I had
not realized there was so much in the way of aftermarket wiring kits and
looms.

Clinton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:16:12 -0600
From: "Coates, Clinton" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Ypres

I was watching a Post Kate episode of Heartbeat a few days ago where Nick
was driving his funky little sportscar.  The wiper motor looks very much
like the one on my SII, but instead of having two motors, this car has just
one, with a bellcrank linkage to the other other wiper.

Has anyone seen one of these in the flesh, so to speak?  I wonder if it
could be adapted to the LR setup, keeping in mind such things as whether or
not the motor is strong enough to take the load etc...

Clinton

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:04:13 -0400
From: "M. Tompkins" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Spares for a long trip

Keith Tanner wrote:

> What spares should I bring along for the trip? Any suggestions for
> preparation?

Well, general rule is take everything you've got.
Of course, it really doesn't matter, cause Murphy's
Rule will be imposed and whatever you don't have
will fail. Best insurance is a list of Land Rover
people along your route.

Mike
'66 Hybrid Coiler 109" SW
http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6623/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:31:32 -0700
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: LRO: Straight Six (was New Guy....)

> :
> :>Some engineer told me a long time ago that the most inherantly 
> vibration free
> :engine design is a straight six... To do with the period the 
> cylinders
> :reciprocate at.
> :
> :I've heard this many times, too. The only thing smoother than a 
> straight six
> :is a V-12.
> 
In terms of primary and secondary imbalance straight 6 and eight are the
equal of a V12 or 16 unless the V angle is 180 degrees, than you have
true cancellation and only have a horizontal rocking couple perpendicular
to the crank, this holds true down to a twin and if it has a "knife and
fork" rod arrangement  then no rocking couple.  V8's with 82 deg. angle
are smoother then ones with 90, and one with 107 deg has a stronger
vibration but it is in plane that is easier to damp.

> Fans of non-reciprocating engines, like Wankels and gas turbines, 
> laugh at
> statements like that, of course.
> 
I give you  the gas turbine, but with all the gyrations a Wankel rotor
goes through I can;t see how it is called a "non-reciprocating" engine

chris hall

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:39:39 -0400
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: new scout guy

>We have a Toyota LC in Portsmouth, only thing is it has BIG magnetic ovals
>on it
>that say LAND-ROVER!!!! Talk about a wanna-be.

Yeah. Everyone knows you can't put magnets on a real Land Rover body :)

Keith
- ------------
Keith's page de home:
    http://keith.miata.net
- ------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:46:33 -0400
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe

>Up
>in Ottawa last weekend there was a stock Disco on a trail with a very
>diverse group.  He was dragging parts on the trail, moving all the rocks and
>tree limbs so he could make it through.  Right behind him was a stock, faded
>red SIIa that made it look like he was on a run to get some milk.  Ho hum,
>no big deal in my Series truck tra lala...

Hi, I drive a stock, faded red SIIa :) That was me following the Disco...

That was actually a pretty amusing sight watching the poor Disco trying to 
deal with the trail. Granted, it was a dealer demo truck on street tires - 
but it sure showed off what compromises had been made over the years 
especially with regards to ground clearance. On the trail, it didn't seem 
like 50 years of progress over the SIs in the group. On the trip home, I 
expect he had a much easier time.

Keith

- ------------
Keith's page de home:
    http://keith.miata.net
- ------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:55:51 -0400
From: "Perrone Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe

	So what would have been his prospects of looking competent had he been on
the same size tires, giving him the same ground clearance?

- -Perrone

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Keith Tanner
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 11:47 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe
>
>
>
> >Up
> >in Ottawa last weekend there was a stock Disco on a trail with a very
> >diverse group.  He was dragging parts on the trail, moving all
> the rocks and
> >tree limbs so he could make it through.  Right behind him was a
> stock, faded
> >red SIIa that made it look like he was on a run to get some
> milk.  Ho hum,
> >no big deal in my Series truck tra lala...
>
> Hi, I drive a stock, faded red SIIa :) That was me following the Disco...
>
> That was actually a pretty amusing sight watching the poor Disco
> trying to
> deal with the trail. Granted, it was a dealer demo truck on
> street tires -
> but it sure showed off what compromises had been made over the years
> especially with regards to ground clearance. On the trail, it didn't seem
> like 50 years of progress over the SIs in the group. On the trip home, I
> expect he had a much easier time.
>
> Keith
>
> ------------
> Keith's page de home:
>     http://keith.miata.net
> ------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:54:19 -0400
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe

Well, he was on standard Disco size tires while I was on standard Series 
size tires. So you're talking about modifying the truck, bringing in a 
whole new ballgame. You can't compare a modified truck to a stock one - or 
else you have to listen to my stories of how a modified Miata can make a C5 
vette look foolish :)

Taller tires would have removed some of the problems with clearance of the 
air dam and the tie rods, but they would have had to be another 4" in 
diameter at least to clear a particular section. This section had also been 
partially "prepped" for him by the time I showed up, so I can't comment on 
what was done. There were a bunch of Series trucks at the top already, 
though. The extra width of the truck was cutting down his options on the 
trail if I remember it correctly.

But the Disco had an interior, a higher on-road cruising speed, the ability 
to merge easily on a freeway, a/c, a sound system... it's all a matter of 
compromise. And to me, that's what I was watching. The result of 
compromising a vehicle away from off-road ability towards a more all-round 
one. I couldn't care less if he was using coils, leafs, airbags or big 
balloons full of whipped cream for a suspension.

I can't comment on the competence of the driver himself. It was only my 
first day of driving offroad myself so I certainly can't claim any ability.

Keith

At 23:55 29-06-01, you wrote:
>         So what would have been his prospects of looking competent had he 
> been on
>the same size tires, giving him the same ground clearance?
>
>-Perrone
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> > Behalf Of Keith Tanner
> > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 11:47 PM
> > To: [email-masked]
> > Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > >Up
> > >in Ottawa last weekend there was a stock Disco on a trail with a very
> > >diverse group.  He was dragging parts on the trail, moving all
> > the rocks and
> > >tree limbs so he could make it through.  Right behind him was a
> > stock, faded
> > >red SIIa that made it look like he was on a run to get some
> > milk.  Ho hum,
> > >no big deal in my Series truck tra lala...
> >
> > Hi, I drive a stock, faded red SIIa :) That was me following the Disco...
> >
> > That was actually a pretty amusing sight watching the poor Disco
> > trying to
> > deal with the trail. Granted, it was a dealer demo truck on
> > street tires -
> > but it sure showed off what compromises had been made over the years
> > especially with regards to ground clearance. On the trail, it didn't seem
> > like 50 years of progress over the SIs in the group. On the trip home, I
> > expect he had a much easier time.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > ------------
> > Keith's page de home:
> >     http://keith.miata.net
> > ------------
> >
> >
> >

- ------------
Keith's page de home:
    http://keith.miata.net
- ------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 01:19:20 -0400
From: "Perrone Ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe

	For chrissakes man.. I am not talking about adding lockers here, or
changing the body...  Its just a dang tire change to the same size you are
running!  Are you going to honestly tell me that in the course of series
ownership you have never changed tire sizes?  I don't consider that vehicle
modification any more than I consider a series owner changing to radials
instead of cross-plys a modification...

	As for added width, what is a disco, maybe 3-5" wider?  He could have made
up that difference by folding in the mirrors.  So in fact, this guy was
hobbled simply because he was running tires of less diameter.  Given
off-road tires of the same size and tread, its quite likely that he could
have done everything you did if his driving skills were up to it.

	This conversation is NOT what I wanted to get into.  Its just insane that
you can consider your truck "clearly superior" since you've got bigger
tires.  If that's what you want to think, go right ahead.  Series trucks DO
have a lot of advantages over coilers that you should be pointing out, but
this ain't one.

- -P

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Keith Tanner
> Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 12:54 AM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe
>
>
> Well, he was on standard Disco size tires while I was on standard Series
> size tires. So you're talking about modifying the truck, bringing in a
> whole new ballgame. You can't compare a modified truck to a stock
> one - or
> else you have to listen to my stories of how a modified Miata can
> make a C5
> vette look foolish :)
>
> Taller tires would have removed some of the problems with
> clearance of the
> air dam and the tie rods, but they would have had to be another 4" in
> diameter at least to clear a particular section. This section had
> also been
> partially "prepped" for him by the time I showed up, so I can't
> comment on
> what was done. There were a bunch of Series trucks at the top already,
> though. The extra width of the truck was cutting down his options on the
> trail if I remember it correctly.
>
> But the Disco had an interior, a higher on-road cruising speed,
> the ability
> to merge easily on a freeway, a/c, a sound system... it's all a matter of
> compromise. And to me, that's what I was watching. The result of
> compromising a vehicle away from off-road ability towards a more
> all-round
> one. I couldn't care less if he was using coils, leafs, airbags or big
> balloons full of whipped cream for a suspension.
>
> I can't comment on the competence of the driver himself. It was only my
> first day of driving offroad myself so I certainly can't claim
> any ability.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 02:49:09 -0400
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe

>  Are you going to honestly tell me that in the course of series
>ownership you have never changed tire sizes?

Of course not. I replaced the 7.50x16's with 235/85-16's. Not that there's 
really a whole lot of difference. Certainly not in diameter - I went with 
that size because I can get radials in it easily and it's not terribly 
different from the 7.50s. Changing wheel/tire diameter is a modification in 
my book, as it brings about a whole range of compromises both on and off 
the tarmac. Oh, there's that word again.

>         This conversation is NOT what I wanted to get into.  Its just 
> insane that
>you can consider your truck "clearly superior" since you've got bigger
>tires.  If that's what you want to think, go right ahead.  Series trucks DO
>have a lot of advantages over coilers that you should be pointing out, but
>this ain't one.

Dude, you've gotta chill out. You're looking for a fight and not getting 
it. Go back and read what I've written. So you're a Discovery fan, that's 
great. I own a Series because they have the character I want, the purity I 
appreciate and I can afford to run one as a toy. Not because I believe 
they're the ultimate in off-road ability. No, following a 101 and a Unimog 
through the trails makes that pretty obvious. I'm not bashing Discos or 
everything running on coils.

I don't know who you're quoting with the "clearly superior", but it sure 
isn't me. In those conditions, the Disco was struggling. I've acknowledged 
that it is superior in many ways. I said it was amusing to watch. Perhaps I 
should have said interesting, as it was more of a challenge to get that 
truck through than it was the others. That makes things interesting. As 
provided by Land Rover, it was not as happy doing what we were doing as the 
row of Series trucks ahead and behind it.

I'm sorry if you feel the world is out to get you. I was glad to see 
Discos, Rangies, Hummers, Unimogs, Toyotas and other vehicles out mixing it 
up at the BP. I don't kid myself that I have the best in the world - except 
that my little truck is what I consider the classic Land Rover, and that's 
why I have it.

Keith
- ------------
Keith's page de home:
    http://keith.miata.net
- ------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 02:50:34 -0400
From: Keith Tanner <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe

>  Are you going to honestly tell me that in the course of series
>ownership you have never changed tire sizes?

Of course not. I replaced the 7.50x16's with 235/85-16's. Not that there's 
really a whole lot of difference. Certainly not in diameter - I went with 
that size because I can get radials in it easily and it's not terribly 
different from the 7.50s. Changing wheel/tire diameter is a modification in 
my book, as it brings about a whole range of compromises both on and off 
the tarmac. Oh, there's that word again.

>         This conversation is NOT what I wanted to get into.  Its just 
> insane that
>you can consider your truck "clearly superior" since you've got bigger
>tires.  If that's what you want to think, go right ahead.  Series trucks DO
>have a lot of advantages over coilers that you should be pointing out, but
>this ain't one.

Dude, you've gotta chill out. You're looking for a fight and not getting 
it. Go back and read what I've written. So you're a Discovery fan, that's 
great. I own a Series because they have the character I want, the purity I 
appreciate and I can afford to run one as a toy. Not because I believe 
they're the ultimate in off-road ability. No, following a 101 and a Unimog 
through the trails makes that pretty obvious. I'm not bashing Discos or 
everything running on coils. You asked me a question or two, I answered 
them honestly.

I don't know who you're quoting with the "clearly superior", but it sure 
isn't me. In those conditions, the Disco was struggling. I've acknowledged 
that it is superior in many ways. I said it was amusing to watch. Perhaps I 
should have said interesting, as it was more of a challenge to get that 
truck through than it was the others. That makes things interesting. As 
provided by Land Rover, it was not as happy doing what we were doing as the 
row of Series trucks ahead and behind it.

I'm sorry if you feel the world is out to get you. I was glad to see 
Discos, Rangies, Hummers, Unimogs, Toyotas and other vehicles out mixing it 
up at the BP. I don't kid myself that I have the best in the world - except 
that my little truck is what I consider the classic Land Rover, and that's 
why I have it. Sure, there were advances made later. I have no problems 
with that.

Keith
- ------------
Keith's page de home:
    http://keith.miata.net
- ------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 02:05:24 -0400
From: Jeff Berg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: War Over Galvanizing Strange New French Guy

>what i meant was that because of steel being rationed, it would have 
>cost them more money to get the same amount of steel as aluminum.  a 
>twisted version of the old supply/demand rule.

You're still wrong... Aluminium cost more then steel but, plain and 
simple,they could not get enough steel as it's allocation was 
controlled by the government. Had they used steel for the body, they 
probably couldn't have produced enough Land Rovers to survive, never 
mind to have created a lucrative export market for the vehicles. This 
export market eventually allowed them access to more steel, which 
allowed them to produce more Rover cars for the home market.

Regarding your next report, I'm looking forward to Chapter 7: Bare Midriffs.

jeff
- -- 
==                                                                   
  Jeffrey A. Berg     Purple Shark Media        Rowayton, CT        
                     [email-masked]
                      ==================
	Guidance Counselor said your scores are anti-heroic.
	Computer recommends hard-drinking calypso poet.
	--Jimmy Buffett, If It All Falls Down (by Matt Betton)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:59:36 -0600
From: Joseph S Dufresne <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: New Guy or All about Joe

- --=====================_2910582==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

As I say when I('m told to sell my scout and get something better:

"define better"

Joe

At 11:46 PM 6/29/2001 -0400, you wrote:
didn't seem like 50 years of progress over the SIs in the group. On the 
trip home, I expect he had a much easier time.

Joe Dufresne, [email-masked]; ICQ# 25751950; 
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~josad/
78 SSII; Smoking Scouts, Rocky Mtn chapter  Recruitment officer for Smoking 
Scouts.

"It's a farm implement thing, you wouldn't understand"

- --=====================_2910582==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
As I say when I('m told to sell my scout and get something
better:<br><br>
&quot;define better&quot;<br><br>
Joe<br><br>
<br>
At 11:46 PM 6/29/2001 -0400, you wrote:<br>
didn't seem like 50 years of progress over the SIs in the group. On the
trip home, I expect he had a much easier time.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Joe Dufresne, [email-masked]; ICQ# 25751950;
<a href="http://tigger.tmcom.com/~josad/" eudora="autourl"><font color="#0000FF"><u>http://tigger.tmcom.com/~josad/</a></u></font>
<br>
78 SSII; Smoking Scouts, Rocky Mtn chapter&nbsp; Recruitment officer for Smoking Scouts. <br><br>
&quot;It's a farm implement thing, you wouldn't understand&quot;<br><br>
<br>
</html>

- --=====================_2910582==_.ALT--

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 02:19:34 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: LRO: Re: LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #427

I have for sale 2 rovers and some accessories. One is a 1960 ser. II trop 
top. Its clean, rust free, od equipped and driven daily. The other is a ser. 
II-a hardtop which is a great candidate for restoration. Its od equipped and 
was driven till I lost compression on #3 and parked it. If you are interested 
contact me at [email-masked].
   I also have a spare wheel and tire for a 1988 range rover.

                                                Thanks for the posting,

                                                            Ron

------------------------------

End of LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #428
**********************************************