Re: LRO: Prejudices wasKinda Long and Opinionated Leaf/Coil comments bewarned

From: Peter Ogilvie (konacoffee2@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Jun 29 2001 - 17:00:35 EDT

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    Are big FAT tires really better for off roading or is it just a myth that
    the Wider the tires, the longer the equipment of the operator. I'm a big
    proponent of ground clearance though have found 32" tires get me where I
    want to go. With all respect to Peter H. can't see anything wider than a
    9.5" tire on a 2 1/4 powered series truck. Also can't imagine a taller tire
    than 33" on a series without widening the track. You'd huli the truck on a
    20 degree sideslope with anything bigger. Just because the mall poseurs
    take along ladders to climb into the cab, doesn't mean they really work off
    road. More likely it's just a vain fashion statement to impress the chicks.
      Peter H's comments against Defender owners also applies to the big tire
    American Iron crowd. Of course, when you take your 143" wheelbase extended
    cab pickup, with custom pinstriping and graphics, offroad, you need 40"
    tires to get the same breakover angle as a Series on 31" tires. With a
    wheel base that long you aren't going to get far off road, in any case.

    As far as Joe, it sounds like he ought to strip the rusty body off his
    scout, buy a bulkhead, rear tub, fenders, and breakfast, adjust the Scout
    frame accordingly and graft the body onto the Scout Frame. The only thing
    that will be left of the series is the look. Why waste a good series doing
    this. If all he wants is the looks, its easier and cheaper to do it with
    parts than butchering a whole truck. Hell, if he wants to pay the shipping,
    I'll give him an 88 tub that is pre customized for rock work. If he insists
    on Rover underpinnings, a coil frame and donations from a RR may get him
    what he wants. Though that conversion may not be cheap.

    Some modifications to a series make sense. A more efficient, more powerful
    motor would be nice to have but not a big American V8 unless you're also
    going to swap in an appropriate transmission and axles. Especially on a
    109, power steering would be nice, your going to be doing a lot of wheel
    twisting to get that long wheelbase, huge turning circle vehicle into even
    open spaces. Of course, if you had 9.5" or narrower tires, power steering
    wouldn't be needed quite so much. Only drastic modifications to the front
    suspension will get you a lot more articulation. More cost effective to
    just install parabolics and put lockers all round. Extending the spring
    mounts and putting on longer front springs and shock towers won't get you
    nearly as far as the above modification. A way to get the road cruising
    speed up a little at a more comfortable rpm would be nice, especially if
    your running 100hp or so. Going faster than 70mph on ANY off road capable
    truck is irresponsible and dangerous to the rest of us. An offroad capable
    truck is physically unsuitable for highspeed on road work. Yeah, you can
    put air springs and electronic suspension (sound familiar) to lower and
    stiffen the suspension for road work and then pump it up and give the wheel
    travel needed for off road work. For most of us mortals, the combination of
    high CG for ground clearance and the reliability of springs and mechanical
    suspension means we have to drive prudently on the road.

    Use a little common sense in how you want to modify your Series truck. If
    you want a gonzo rock crawler, it ain't a series truck. With a few
    judicious and cost effective changes, you can have a series truck that will
    get you almost anywhere that 4 wheels will go, however, and still have a
    vehicle that bears a close resemblance to the Series Truck that you started
    with. Don't spend a lot of money on a paint job, if your going to USE your
    truck off road. You WILL be customizing the body work.

    Aloha
    Peter O

    >From: "Hope Peter" <hope_peter@bah.com>
    >Reply-To: lro@works.team.net
    >To: <lro@Works.Team.Net>
    >Subject: LRO: Kinda Long and Opinionated Leaf/Coil comments bewarned
    >Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:41:49 -1000
    >
    > >
    > > While I respect you a lot as you bring a lot of experience to the
    >list,
    >it pains me that your statements ring true. I know many leafers don't care
    >about coiler guys, and that permeates with your attitudes. It seeps into
    >the persona of off-road events, and generally makes for a difficult time
    >planning events between the two groups. Those of us who own coil-sprung
    >rovers and actually are enthusiasts tend to appreciate the series trucks
    >and
    >learn what we can about the heritage of our marque.
    >
    >
    >Unfortunately for some of us leafers we don't meet many coilers that fall
    >into this description.
    >A couple of us Series guys on island have taken the time to stop and chat
    >with coilers and invite them to participate on our trips and get togethers.
    >Pretty much get treated like we are not good enough for them. I am not
    >talking about the station wagon soccer moms either. If it's a stock
    >looking, new, scratchless Rangie or Disco I don't bother any more. I am
    >talking about the guys/girls that have off road tires, bars, lights, racks
    >etc. Ask em to go off roading, they think you mean drive through the
    >pineapple fields or to Keana Pt. Tell em we mean Peacock Flats, the
    >Kahuku's, or the training areas of Schoffield. Tell them about the knee
    >deep mud, how Kevin and I have both flooded our engines, about the time I
    >had water up to my seat cushions and they get this look on their face like
    >we are talking about going to mars. These people have the pushbars so they
    >dont scratch their fenders in parking lots. They thought that those three
    >white round disks on the front just let people know they spent more $$$ on
    >their vehicle. Don't really use the lights, because that would mean
    >getting
    >ut of the vehicle to remove the covers. The roof rack is to put the beach
    >chairs on so you don't get sand in the vehicle. The tires, well it's a
    >truck, ya have to have truck tires ona truck. The three Defender guys I
    >have met on Island bought the "image". They have money and want everyone
    >to
    >know. Oh they also have a Benz and a BMW Z-3. You know, the people who
    >think Series means new Disco, or the "early Defender", or the vehicle used
    >by the Desert Rats in North Africa during WWII. Had one guy go into this
    >long explanation about how the Range Rover company designed the Land Rover
    >for a British oil company in the 50's for oil exploration and they were
    >never sold to the general public. Other oil companies, logging companies,
    >mines, etc were the only one that got them.
    >
    >I have met some of the people from this list that own coilers and I know
    >that my above rant is not a blanket statement against all coilers, but it
    >does describe the majority of coil owners. It has been mentioned on this
    >list in the past that hopefully Ford realises that there exists a market
    >for
    >a true utility type 4x4. I hope they do, but you know what, I think the
    >market is very, very, very small. Ford bought a Name. If the Defender
    >line
    >continues, in less then 10 years it will be an aerodynamic, unibody design
    >vehicle with crumple zones, molded plastic bumpers, airbags, and all the
    >electric gadgets you can imagine. Some people believe that this
    >elctrickery
    >makes the vehicle more reliable, recent dsicussion on the Mendo list about
    >this. People didn't believe me when I claimed to have had many vehicles
    >towed into our shop for sensor related failures, including one GM car that
    >had it's brakes lock up when the ABS system went out. If you are looking
    >for something that doesn't require much in the way of maintance, then buy a
    >brand new vehicle and swap it out every 3-4 years. But dont try and tell
    >me
    >that a 10 yo EFI vehicle is more reliable then a Series vehicle would have
    >been when it was 10 years old. And if you believe that a coiler is more
    >reliable then a leafer how about a $for$ comparison. I will wager a months
    >pay that if two people both had the same budget, the one that puts all the
    >money into new parts for a Series rig will have a more relaible vehicle
    >then
    >the person that buys a Disco II.
    >
    >I am not saying that coil sprung vehicle are bad. I would love to get a
    >1975 2 door rangie. Maybe swap out the duel SU/Stromberg carbs for webers,
    >but I would be happy with the rest of the package. For my next project I
    >want to build a coil 109 with a dormie top. Diesel engine and auto tranny.
    >Hope Joe does build his Series so I can learn from his experiance. I can't
    >wait to get to the PacNorWest and meet some of the people up there and see
    >how they have built their rigs. From the photos I have seen and the people
    >I have talked to, hope I can talk Timm Cooper into letting me an apprentice
    >for a while. To me the Rover is a big lego set. I like the looks. I like
    >working on them. I enjoy the simplicity and the funny quirks. I love that
    >I had to remove the radiator in order to take off the steering relay, I
    >still laugh at that one. I like the small 4 cyl in the 88 and the low
    >gearing. Yes I drive in more mud then rock crawling and I "rednecked" the
    >88 by putting 33's on it, but they are working great for me. I do cringe
    >at
    >times when I think about what I have done to my vehicle and know there are
    >people out there that probably think I have truely ruined the vehicle. But
    >I am happy with it. The only thing I have done that isn non-reversable is
    >to change the shape of the rear wheel wells. If I ever got rid of the
    >thing, someone could get a stock chassis and springs it it would be a stock
    >series again. Show of hands, who remembers the kid that wanted to put 33's
    >and a v-8 in a Series rig? he was run off pretty quick. Think some are
    >trying the same with Joe, and am sure that if I had started out discussing
    >my plans I would have been run off also. BTW I found this list sometime in
    >mid 97, but never posted until May 98 when I found out about the move to
    >Hawaii, and asked about Rovers for sale here. Other then asking questions,
    >I stayed pretty quiete for another year. I saw alot of how the
    >non-traditionalist were treated and didn't want any part of it.
    >Well that is enough for now I am sure,
    >Pete
    >

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