Subject: LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #408

From: [email-masked] (LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * *)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:38:45 -0400

LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * Wednesday, June 13 2001 Volume 01 : Number 408

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 14:51:29 -0600
From: "Tim Czajka" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Engine/Trans Swap 

TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:
>Tim, what a great tool you have built!
>
Thanks.  I wrote part of it a while back and
never got around to killing the bugs.  So I
finally completed it last month - great thing
about being on "the bench" is I get to do
some fun stuff - unlike the COBOL I have
been writing for the past six months.

I did add the Series tcase ratios so you
might be pulling in a cached version.  I
plan to follow your suggestion of adding
the Ashcroft and other LR tcases.  But it
seems the LR tcases came with several
different gear sets - looks like I will
have to expand the form.  Let me know
if you find any bugs or ease of use
issues.

Tim Czajka
1972 Series III 88
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:51:45 -1000
From: "Peter Ogilvie" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: On being British

Christ Marin, are you trying to ruin the list.  When PC takes a hold here, 
its time to sell the trucks and walk.

Aloha
Peter

>From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: [email-masked]
>To: "'Land Rover Mail Group'" <[email-masked]>
>Subject: LRO: On being British
>Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:57:09 -0700
>
>In a recent short post about the British, I made
>a statement to the effect that the British don't take
>an Irishman seriously unless the Irishman is armed.
>Perhaps I should have put a :-) after that comment.
>I was trusting that you lot would read it with the
>humor that was intended, but perhaps not.  So before
>anyone rips off a reply accusing me of being anti-Irish,
>let me assure you I was simply quoting an old
>joke, not making some sort of political statement.
>
>Actually, I stole the thing verbatim from a book I read
>by the travel writer Paul Theroux, on his
>journey in the mid-1980s around the coast of Great
>Britain.  The book is called "The Kingdom by the
>Sea," and it's worth reading if you enjoy the
>cultures and personalities that comprise the UK.
>
>Anyway, if anyone by chance did take offense at the
>statement, none was intended.
>___________________________
>C. Marin Faure
>   (original owner)
>   1973 Land Rover Series III-88
>   1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
>   Seattle

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:58:44 -0700
From: "Rich Williams II" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?

I have dealer pricing information for all versions of Series II bodies, I
believe dated early 1961.  The pricing also has the full lo-down on all
factory options available at that time.

I am more than happy to post the model/price info to the list when I get
home tonight but does someone have a scanner and web space for this stuff
too?

Rich Williams
Series II 109 SW

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Tate Crumbley <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?

> Last Sunday, the Washington DC Post Car Pages featured a 1963 Series II
> Station Wagon in their "The Wheels of Time" column. There was a picture of
> someone's truck and a small writeup. The price listed there was $3925,
with
> median family income of $6249. I'd say the modern comparison might be
> possible to make.
>
> On another note, the write up says this: "The Land Rover, like the
American
> Jeep, came into prominence in WWII. After the war, Rover introduced a
> civilian line of land Rovers that ...".
>
> I thought that '48 was the first year they were made, several years after
> the war. Were there military vehicles made during the war? From what I
> know, a letter to the editor might be in order, but I leave that to those
> better versed in Rover history.
>
> Tate
>
> At 01:38 PM 6/13/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Would anyone happen to know the approximate price in North America of a
> >Series II in 1959 or thereabouts?
> >
> >The reason I ask is that I got chatting with a Disco driver today who
> >remarked that my rather time worn but reeking of character Series II
> >probably cost the equivalent in 1959 of a Discovery today.  I'd like to
> >check that.
> >
> >
> >
> >                                             Rick Grant
> >
> >                                   1959 Series II   "88"
> >                                   VORIZO
> >
> >
> >
> >Rick Grant Communications
> >Media and Crisis Management
> >Calgary Ottawa
> >www.rickgrant.com
> >
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:36:26 +0100
From: Kali Moss <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: 

A while ago the message archives for these lists were mentioned

http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1998/980813.html

I beleive these get to some.
Happy Hunting

  Kali Moss

LR S3 Swb
- ---------------
I do what I am told, and usually get it right!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:33:08 +0100
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Re: Re: Guinness (for Frank, the Old Fart)

Alex writes: >>>OK guys, what's the 'odd' thing about serving Newkie Brown?
>
> First use of the clear bottle (reputed to "ruin" the beer, but I haven't
> noticed)? Oldest brewing site in the UK, allegedly? Gawrsh, I don't
know....<<<

to enjoy a pint of Newkie Brown properly you should have a pint bottle and a
half pint glass. Then you keep topping up the half pint as you drink, to
keep the head on it. Otherwise it disappears and looks flat - still tastes
just as good tho.
 Seems weird the first few times as around here we think of half-pint
glasses as for women. You don't say that in Geordieland tho'

you also write: 'up Alan Shearer' to which I reply, that rat deserted
Blackburn Rovers so 'right up' him!

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:41:00 +0100
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: British history

you write: >>.  Of course that other more recent
> >French guy, Mr. Bonaparte may have contributed.<<<

so there you go, think the Welsh/Scots/English thing is confusing? Napoleon
was a Corsican, not French.
and De Gaulle, more recently, certainly stirred the pot a hell of a lot - he
hated the British and Americans 'cos he depended on us during the War. Just
like a lot of stupid British dislike Americans 'cos we depended on you. (Me,
I've said before, a lot of us appreciate what you did - but then a lot of
French appreciate us and you... c'est la vie)
btw, the most hated German ever, Adolf Hitler, was Austrian...

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:35:48 +0100
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Re: True Brits (was Guinness)

Normandy was named Normandy 'cos it was a part of France that had been
settled by 'men of the North' - ie Norsemen, or Vikings.
Funny how we have differing views of why Wales wasn't invaded :-)>
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Alex Maiolo <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>; Alex Maiolo <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:52 PM
Subject: LRO: Re: True Brits (was Guinness)

> > Funny, all those good Anglo Saxon Britons from Robin Hood's time were
> being
> > put upon by Normans, who were nothing more than a bunch of hopped up
> > Vikings, another Germanic crowd.
>
> Close - the Normans were from Normandy, France.
> William the Conquerer, betrayal, Hastings, Bayeux Tapestry.
> 1066, And All That.
>
> As far as the Britons thing goes, my British History is a little fuzzy
after
> about 2000 B.C.E., but perhaps the reason the Cymru bunch claim to be the
> only "true Brits" is because nobody has successfully invaded them. The
> island was full of the same short, dark-skinned, big headed chaps until
the
> invaders came. The Vikings didn't get into Wales. Got their asses kicked,
> really.  The Romans pretty much stopped short. The Normans didn't bother
> because they heard they would most likely get a whuppin' (they weren't
used
> to mountain combat).
>
> Basically, the armies of history never felt like messing with this hearty
> group of Celtic biker-types, so I guess they are "pure," whereas the rest
of
> Britain has been intermixed. A list of town names in England will verify
the
> many influences on its culture, whereas Wales gives you the most
vowel-free
> placenames for your buck (pound), because they're mostly still named in
> Welsh Gaelic or a derivative. Viva la glottal stop.
> The English have had so many genetic influences over the last 2500 years
> it's safe to say that they are just as much mutts as we Yanks are.
> The myth that red hair is a Scottish trait is...well.... a myth. Danish
men
> on pillage parties left their zygotes scattered with the women of  both
> Tartan-land and Hibernia, so while free of Roman genes, they've been
> seriously tainted from the East.
>
>
> Nid yw Cymru ar Werth!
> Alex Maiolo (Huw Goc Aur)
> Chapel Hill NC
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:15:17 +0100
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Replacing footwells

the brazing will still break and the rivets will hold the panels in, so why
bother?
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Hatton <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: LRO: Replacing footwells

> How about this.....
> If I rivet the footwells in and then braze the overlaps for a more
> permanent seal. I am only replacing the bottom half of the toe boards and
the side
> kick panels. Most of these are substantially OK, so I can get a good
> overlap. Welding quote was CA$ 675! The few times I have got stuff welded
> they have done an atrocious stuff, and the people I can trust are way too
> busy.
>
> Michael Hatton
>
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2001, Peter Ogilvie wrote:
>
> > Haven't any first hand experience but a number of people have riveted in
the
> > replacement footwells.  Use some kind of permanent marine sealant where
the
> > parts overlap, drill and pop.  Riveting will be nearly as strong as
welding.
> >   If you don't know how to weld and don't have the equipment, you won't
have
> > to develop a talent you may not have an aptititude for or spend the
money on
> > a welder.  You could hire the welding but believe welders charge by the
inch
> > and footwells have a lot of inches to weld.  So, unless you weld
yourself or
> > have a friend who works for beer, riveting has its strong points.
> >
> > Aloha
> > Peter O.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
> > >  Anyone have any tips on brazing in replacement footwells, I am
> > >hoping to start on this next week, so that I can continue with the
> > >frameover.
> > >Yup - brazing is right out on structural steel (which anything attached
to
> > >the bulkhead is) Find a weldor and save yourself a lot of grief.
> > >
> > >Brazes, because they are not metal fusion, will crack and fail. Not a
good
> > >idea....also against the law in inspection depending on the state.
> > >
> > >I've seen brazed repairs after a while - one 88 I bought had brazed-on
> > >outriggers - which had cracked along 3 sides and were peeling off the
frame
> > >underneath. The brazing had failed...not the metal substrate. That
frame
> > >got scrapped in a big hurry....
> > >
> > >If you do all the prep and fitting getting the stuff welded should be
cheap
> > >enough...
> > >                     ajr
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
> >
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:00:37 -0600
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Rain-X, the final step...

Just wondering, does it do anything on the inside of the windscreen as
far as fogging is concerned?
- --
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 01 15:04:15 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: RE: front t-case output seal.

>"Those nuts ain't 1/2 and they ain't 9/16"....."  This very quote could be
>heard coming from my garage last week as well!

Welcome to BSF

TeriAnn Wakeman               Marigold Ltd.
Santa Cruz, California        Web design, site updating, testing
[email-masked]      search engine optimization, graphics
                              and more

http://www.overlander.net/Marigold/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:09:25 -0400
From: "Scott Wickham Jr." <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?

 Cars have truly become 
appliances and most with the soul of a toaster.

  Spenny, what foresight you had ;)

Scooter

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:08:56 -0600
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: source for generator screws?

I have 2 screws that are 6 1/4" long. If that sounds right, they are
yours.

Matthew Wilson wrote:
> 
> Hey Jim,
>   I responded to that guy Hank about the screws over a week ago and he
> hasn't replied to me yet.  So if I could bug you to check and see if you
> have some of those screws, I'd appreciate it.
> Thanks,
> Matthew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Jim Hall
> Sent: 06 June, 2001 1:13
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: LRO: source for generator screws?
> 
> Did you find genny screws yet? I may have some if not. I'm just not sure
> if mine are from a c-40.
> 
> Matthew Wilson wrote:
> >
> > Firstoff, belated thanks to those listmembers that gave me advice on
> sealing
> > the sph.  I now have the thing apart again, but I'm puzzled as to why the
> > seal is a little loose in there.  I tried an AB and an RN (genuine) seal,
> > both have the same wobble...I wonder if the housing is deformed
> > somehow...strange.
> >
> > Next question, I rebuilt the generator (Lucas c-40) over the weekend.  I
> > cobbled together one that spins freely from the remains of mine and
> another
> > collection of parts.  However, while disassembling mine, I broke those two
> > long screws that go through the generator body and hold the end brackets
> > together.  Does anyone have a spare two that they would be willing to part
> > with?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matthew
> 
> --
> Jim Hall
> 1966 88" Elephant Chaser
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
> "You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling
> with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

- -- 
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:11:41 -0400
From: Jeff Berg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Rain-X, the final step...

>Just wondering, does it do anything on the inside of the windscreen as
>far as fogging is concerned?

Seems to help reduce fogging. I've always used it inside and out...

jeff
- -- 
==                                                                   
  Jeffrey A. Berg     Purple Shark Media        Rowayton, CT        
                     [email-masked]
                      ==================
	My garden is full of papayas and mangos.
	My dance card is filled with merengues and tangos.
	Taste for the good life, 
	I can see it no other way.
		--Jimmy Buffett, Lone Palm (live version)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:12:55 -0700
From: "G. Mugele" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?

- --============_-1219652047==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

Can't say much about 1959 since I was not interested in making a 
purchase then.

In 1968 it was all but impossible to find a new Land Rover of any 
style for sale in the US.  That was the year that they stopped 
importing 109s and diesels, although I have heard that a very few of 
each did reach our shores through "legitimate" channels.

In 1969 there was a waiting list at each of the very few US 
dealerships and the used LR market seemed to be non-existent.  In 
July of 1969, after a three month wait, I paid $3749.  That was the 
number on the check, so that includes tax, license, dealer prep, 
undercoating, power windows, skyliner retractable roof...oh wait.  No 
it was just the legal fees and the Series IIa 88 "Deluxe 
Station-wagon" with the bonnet mounted spare.  At the time I was 
making around $7.5K as a computer jockey.

In January of 1996 I bought a D90 SW and the check was for very close 
to 10x the price of the '69.  My income was better than 10x but my 
position had changed significantly.  I'd say that the same position I 
held in 1969 would have paid about 5x  or 6x more in 1996 than in 
'69,  So it's fair to suspect that there is some disparity in the 
current costs.

For another consideration though, in '69 the thought of marketing 
Land Rovers as collectibles would have been sillier than imagining 
that a has-been movie actor would be president someday.  I certainly 
had no expectations that my Land Rover would appreciate.

Somewhere in my files I have a Car&Driver road test of a 109 4-door 
from about 1964.  As I recall it was somewhere about $3,500 with 
pretty much all the good stuff you could reasonably expect.  The 88s 
were quite a bit cheaper, a fair bit under $3K.

For comparison purposes, consider a Porsche 365 in '64 was very 
nearly $4K, an Austin Healey 3000 was around $3200, a TR-4A or MGB 
was around $2700 and as Peter pointed out a Beetle was firmly priced 
at $1800.

Given the above: in the 60s Land Rover was sort of in the middle of 
the market price-wise and was a status symbol only in very limited 
social circles.  Certainly not as they are now, priced at the very 
high end with serious status collecting rides.

G. Mugele
*** "Thanks to the Interstate highway system, it is possible to 
travel coast to coast without seeing anything."   --  Charles Kuralt

- --============_-1219652047==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

Can't say much about 1959 since I was not interested in making a
purchase then.  

In 1968 it was all but impossible to find a new Land Rover of any style
for sale in the US.  That was the year that they stopped importing 109s
and diesels, although I have heard that a very few of each did reach
our shores through "legitimate" channels.

In 1969 there was a waiting list at each of the very few US dealerships
and the used LR market seemed to be non-existent.  In July of 1969,
after a three month wait, I paid $3749.  That was the number on the
check, so that includes tax, license, dealer prep, undercoating, power
windows, skyliner retractable roof...oh wait.  No it was just the legal
fees and the Series IIa 88 "Deluxe Station-wagon" with the bonnet
mounted spare.  At the time I was making around $7.5K as a computer
jockey.

In January of 1996 I bought a D90 SW and the check was for very close
to 10x the price of the '69.  My income was better than 10x but my
position had changed significantly.  I'd say that the same position I
held in 1969 would have paid about 5x  or 6x more in 1996 than in '69, 
So it's fair to suspect that there is some disparity in the current
costs.  

For another consideration though, in '69 the thought of marketing Land
Rovers as collectibles would have been sillier than imagining that a
has-been movie actor would be president someday.  I certainly had no
expectations that my Land Rover would appreciate.

Somewhere in my files I have a Car&Driver road test of a 109 4-door
from about 1964.  As I recall it was somewhere about $3,500 with pretty
much all the good stuff you could reasonably expect.  The 88s were
quite a bit cheaper, a fair bit under $3K.  

For comparison purposes, consider a Porsche 365 in '64 was very nearly
$4K, an Austin Healey 3000 was around $3200, a TR-4A or MGB was around
$2700 and as Peter pointed out a Beetle was firmly priced at $1800.  

Given the above: in the 60s Land Rover was sort of in the middle of the
market price-wise and was a status symbol only in very limited social
circles.  Certainly not as they are now, priced at the very high end
with serious status collecting rides.  

G. Mugele

*** <fontfamily><param>Palatino</param><smaller>"Thanks to the
Interstate highway system, it is possible to travel coast to coast
without seeing anything."   --  Charles Kuralt
</smaller></fontfamily>

- --============_-1219652047==_ma============--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:21:52 -0400
From: "Lee Jones" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: Rain-X, the final step...

The Rain-X people make a specific product for anti-fogging - I haven't tried
it though.

Lee

- -----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Jeff Berg
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 6:12 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: LRO: Rain-X, the final step...

>Just wondering, does it do anything on the inside of the windscreen as
>far as fogging is concerned?

Seems to help reduce fogging. I've always used it inside and out...

jeff
- --
==
  Jeffrey A. Berg     Purple Shark Media        Rowayton, CT
                     [email-masked]
                      ==================
	My garden is full of papayas and mangos.
	My dance card is filled with merengues and tangos.
	Taste for the good life,
	I can see it no other way.
		--Jimmy Buffett, Lone Palm (live version)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:28:33 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Land Rover Price in 1959?

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:38:14 -0600
From: Rick Grant <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?

>Would anyone happen to know the approximate price in North America of a 
Series II in 1959 or thereabouts?  The reason I ask is that I got 
chatting with a Disco driver today who 
remarked that my rather time worn but reeking of character Series II 
probably cost the equivalent in 1959 of a Discovery today.  I'd like to 
check that.

I'd say your acquaintance is not too far off.  I can't speak for the late 
1950s, but in 1973, a US-spec Series III Hardtop Deluxe cost about
$4,200.  Plus tax, shipping, etc.  At that time, a Toyota Land Cruiser 
FJ-40 was just under $4,000, and a Jeep CJ-5 was just under $3,000.  
During that same time frame, if memory serves, you could buy a new 
Ferrari for about $10,000, and a new Cadillac was about $5,000.  (A new 
Cessna 150 was about $8,000 and a Cessna 172 was $14,000.)  So I would 
say a new Series in the US cost about as much in relation to everything else 
as an upper-mid-range SUV does today.  I do know that at the time (1973), 
the Land Rover Series III was the most expensive of the utility-type 4wds 
available in the US.  Its only competition back then was the Toyota FJ-40, 
the Ford Bronco, the Jeep CJ, and the (very limited numbers) Datsun Patrol.  
I'm not sure if the International Scout was out yet.  The big Chevy Blazer was 
introduced at about that same time, and then Toyota began bringing in the 
long wheelbase Land Cruiser.  But by that time the Land Rover was no longer 
available in the US.
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:04:40 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Land Rover Price in 1959?

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:22:43 -0400
From: Tate Crumbley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?

>On another note, the write up says this: "The Land Rover, like the American 
Jeep, came into prominence in WWII. After the war, Rover introduced a 
civilian line of land Rovers that ...". I thought that '48 was the first year 
they were made...

You are correct.  The prototype Land Rovers were assembled in 1947, 
and the first production models were made in 1948.  I'm sure the Rover 
Company supported the war effort, but it was not by building Land 
Rovers.  I believe the Solihull plant produced aircraft components 
and/or engines, but I don't have my LR history books with me so I 
can't confirm that.

The prototype Land Rover was built using a number of parts from a pair 
of surplus Army Jeeps the company purchased in late 1946 or early 1947.  
The Jeep parts used included a frame and some drivetrain components, but this was 
done for expediency, not because the company intended to copy these 
parts exactly.  The company was in a hurry to get a proof-of-concept vehicle 
up and running because the managing directors were putting on a lot of 
pressure to get some sort of export vehicle- ANY export vehicle- into 
production.  This was because materials allocations, particularly steel, were based 
in large part on a company's exports.  Aluminum was chosen for the Land 
Rover because it was available and did not deplete the company's steel 
allocations, which it reserved for its passenger cars.  Aluminum's rust-resistant 
characteristics were a nice benefit, but they were not the main reason the material 
was chosen.

The Land Rover was 
originally envisioned as being in production for only two or three years until the 
passenger car division was back on its feet, at which time the Land Rover 
would be discontinued. For that reason, the vehicle's design was kept crude 
and simple to assemble.  The company did not anticipate the Land Rover 
would become as popular as it did, and so production continued.  Unfortunately, 
they never got around to updating the original crude design and construction until
1969, at which point they started afresh with a brand new design called the Range 
Rover.  The basic Land Rover, of course, continues today under the 
Defender name, although there are some who believe that the Defender is even 
more poorly built with even cheaper materials than the Series machines.  This last 
is open to debate of course.....:-)

My personal opinion is the only 4wd the company ever really got right from the outset 
was the Range Rover.  The Land Rover was conceived as a stop-gap and has 
always been treated that way, while the Range Rover was treated as a real 
product from day one.  The Discovery, ironically enough, was conceived as 
an "entry level" Land Rover, and was marketed as such when it came out in 
1989.  Of course, it rapidly moved upscale.  But the Discovery was plagued 
with some pretty serious quality and reliability problems until about 1995, when 
Land Rover finally got their suppliers straightened out.  (Land Rover doesn't 
actually make anything anymore- all the components of the Defender, Discovery, and 
Range Rover are made by suppliers and sent to Solihull for assembly. I don't 
know if this applies to the Freelander as well.)

But everything happened right on the Range Rover program despite the company's 
lack of funds.  The exterior design was considered so successful, it is (to my knowledge) 
the only vehicle ever put on display in the Louvre in Paris as a work of art (which I find 
surprising since the French have produced some very good looking vehicle designs of their 
own).  Today the Range Rover looks like a Ford Explorer, but the "classic" body style, 
particularly the 100-inch wheelbase model that was standard until 1993, is a real winner.

Much more than you wanted to know, I'm sure, but I'm waiting for an effect to render 
on the computer, so I had a few minutes.....
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:30:53 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Land Rover Price in 1959?

Rick Grant wrote:

> Would anyone happen to know the approximate price in North America of a
> Series II in 1959 or thereabouts?
>
> The reason I ask is that I got chatting with a Disco driver today who
> remarked that my rather time worn but reeking of character Series II
> probably cost the equivalent in 1959 of a Discovery today.  I'd like to
> check that.
>
> The shipping invoice from 1959 lists the following, presumably as options:
> 88" Station Wagon, tropical roof, two heaters, full instrument cluster,
> spare wheel carrier (bonnet and rear door), flyscreens for dash vents,
> deluxe interior trim, rear seats, locking fuel cap.

Rick,

The base price for an 88 SW w/ Tropical Roof is $2,435 for petrol, $2,750
for diesel.

Add $32.05 per heater.
Add $4.20 for speedo w/ trip meter (all other instruments listed as
"standard")
One spare is "standard"
Add $30.00 for extra spare tire
Add $3.75 for bonnet spare carrier
Add $3.28 per flyscreen
Deluxe interior trim "standard"
Rear seats "standard"
Add $1.50 for locking fuel cap

All for a grand total of $2,543.06 not including dealer fees, taxes,
license, etc...

Amounts listed in US funds and for the Series II.

Whai I have is the Dealer's North American price list which consists of
approximately 10 pages of tables.  If anyone wants a copy I'll be happy to
provide that - just email your postal address.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:40:15 +0100
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Guinness (was Acetone and Rain-X)

yeah, clever clogs...
(thanks for the tea the other day)
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Norris <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: LRO: Guinness (was Acetone and Rain-X)

> I think I know this one, 1pt of NBA, 1/2 pt glass.  1/2 bottle in glass
half
> leftin bottle to keep from going flat.
> Personally don't touch the stuff since I found what a chemical soup it is
> rather than a proper beer like Guiness or theakstons/blacksheep/TimTaylor
> etc...
> Am I right?
> PhilN
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Elson <[email-masked]>
> To: [email-masked] <[email-masked]>
> Date: 12 June 2001 20:13
> Subject: Re: LRO: Guinness (was Acetone and Rain-X)
>
>
> >Ajr writes: <<<Newcastle Brown Ale <<<
> >
> >OK guys, what's the 'odd' thing about serving Newkie Brown?
> >
> >(there is no prize btw)
> >Best Cheers
> >
> >Frank
> >    +--+--+--+
> >     I !__|  [_]|_\___
> >     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
> >     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW
> >
> >
> >
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:38:44 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Series II Prices

While I'm looking at this thing I'll send out the base prices on the other
models of Series II trucks.

Prices are in US funds.

88 Basic Model w/ Canvas Top
Petrol    2040
Diesel    2355

88 Truck Cab
Petrol    2055
Diesel    2365

88 Hard Top
Petrol    2110
Diesel    2425

88 Seven Pass. Station Wagon
Petrol    2435
Diesel    2750

109 Basic Model (Truck Cab)
Petrol    2305
Diesel    2620

109 Canvas Top
Petrol    2315
Diesel    2630

109 Hard Top
Petrol    2405
Diesel    2720

109 Ten Pass. Station Wagon
Petrol    2805
Diesel    3120

109 Dormobile Caravan w/ 4 Berths
Petrol     3540
Diesel    3855

If anyone wants any specifics on the above models let me know and I will be
happy to provide the info.

Rich
'60 SII 109SW

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:48:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: Rain-X, the final step...

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, Lee Jones wrote:

:The Rain-X people make a specific product for anti-fogging - I haven't tried
:it though.

It doesn't work.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:42:32 +0100
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: RE:  Guinness

If it's 'Penny Lane' he shoulda had a Scouse accent...
Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Tackley, John <[email-masked]>
To: [email-masked]' <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 2:45 PM
Subject: LRO: RE: Guinness

> >>>>>>>>>>>
> Frank said:
>
> Kirk, you didn't write English, you wrote British.
>  Scots, Welsh and English are British, Irish are Irish.
>
> Heard a cute ad this AM on the radio for a pub here in Richmond, Va:
>
> The owner of this fine establishment comes on, and in his genuine, best
> Cockney accent says:
>
> "Penny Lane Bri-ish Pub...A bit of auffentic Bri-ish food; Bangers and
Mash,
> roight, Shepards Pie, Pasties", roight, ...
>
> (yadda yadda...here comes the cute part)
>
> "Many Bri-ish beer styles on tap, roight, Bitters, Ales, Stouts, well over
a
> dozen in aull, roight, includin' 6 Bri-ish, 2 Scau-ish, 2 Irish and ...
> ...2 American beers for the designated drivers! Roight!"
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:00:03 -0400
From: "Peter Thomson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Re: Land Rover Price in 1959?

Just to give my 2cents worth I paid $1,998 AU (Australian) dollars for my
88" diesel 11A direct from the factory and had it shipped to the U.S. early
1970. Back then it took $2.50 U.S. to make $1.00 AU dollar.
 I was looking at the Jeep and other 4wds and found that they may have been
cheaper to buy but by the time you added the off road packeges it cost a
hell of a lot more. I know at the time one chap spent another $8.000  on his
scout and then didn't want to scratch it off road. My 88  went from the U.S.
to Canada to Australia where I sold it in 1993.(for parts) the frame was
toast. Peter.

Original Message -----
From: Faure, Marin <[email-masked]>
To: 'Land Rover Mail Group' <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 6:28 PM
Subject: LRO: Re: Land Rover Price in 1959?

> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:38:14 -0600
> From: Rick Grant <[email-masked]>
> Subject: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?
>
> >Would anyone happen to know the approximate price in North America of a
> Series II in 1959 or thereabouts?  The reason I ask is that I got
> chatting with a Disco driver today who
> remarked that my rather time worn but reeking of character Series II
> probably cost the equivalent in 1959 of a Discovery today.  I'd like to
> check that.
>
> I'd say your acquaintance is not too far off.  I can't speak for the late
> 1950s, but in 1973, a US-spec Series III Hardtop Deluxe cost about
> $4,200.  Plus tax, shipping, etc.  At that time, a Toyota Land Cruiser
> FJ-40 was just under $4,000, and a Jeep CJ-5 was just under $3,000.
> During that same time frame, if memory serves, you could buy a new
> Ferrari for about $10,000, and a new Cadillac was about $5,000.  (A new
> Cessna 150 was about $8,000 and a Cessna 172 was $14,000.)  So I would
> say a new Series in the US cost about as much in relation to everything
else
> as an upper-mid-range SUV does today.  I do know that at the time (1973),
> the Land Rover Series III was the most expensive of the utility-type 4wds
> available in the US.  Its only competition back then was the Toyota FJ-40,
> the Ford Bronco, the Jeep CJ, and the (very limited numbers) Datsun
Patrol.
> I'm not sure if the International Scout was out yet.  The big Chevy Blazer
was
> introduced at about that same time, and then Toyota began bringing in the
> long wheelbase Land Cruiser.  But by that time the Land Rover was no
longer
> available in the US.
> ___________________________
> C. Marin Faure
>   (original owner)
>   1973 Land Rover Series III-88
>   1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
>   Seattle
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:28:39 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: seeking opinions on paint schemes

Okay, this really isn't that big of a deal but I needed to kill a few
minutes so I am throwing this out to the list to get people's opinions on
paint schemes.

We're talking about a 1960 Series II 109 Station Wagon.  The truck was
originally Marine Blue and after much consideration during this restoration
I have decided to change it's body color to Bronze Green, including the side
panels rear of the middle doors.  Well, it may not be a SII color (from what
I have been able to tell save for models exported to countries other than
the USA) but at least it is a Series color.

I am using Rover White (apparently the earliest of the LR "light" colors)
for the roof and wheels.  The question is regarding the roof, some family
members are in favor of painting just the sun shield white with the rest of
the top painted body color and others want the entire roof white.  We've
seen Series trucks painted both ways and now have a divided household.  Was
there any specific reason behind the 2 different schemes?

And most importantly, what are your votes?  Chime in and settle this family
dilemma (hey, it could be worse).  I'll hold my opinion (vote) until a
decision has been made.

Thanks everyone.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:39:09 -0400
From: "Alex Maiolo" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Re: Re: Re: Guinness (for Frank, the Old Fart)

> to enjoy a pint of Newkie Brown properly you should have a pint bottle and
a
> half pint glass. Then you keep topping up the half pint as you drink, to
> keep the head on it. Otherwise it disappears and looks flat - still tastes
> just as good tho.

One of the guys on the list got it dead on!

> you also write: 'up Alan Shearer' to which I reply, that rat deserted
> Blackburn Rovers so 'right up' him!

Yeah, I've got a Rovers (<-----content) jersey in my closet. A pal gave it
to me as a very obvious joke. Relegated or not I still pull for them, owing,
of course to the name.
Personally, I'm a Chelsea fan when you're talking Premier. I just mentioned
Shearer because (let's face it) he's amazing, and from Newkie town.

Mixed a Scot's Mac tonight. Thanks for the tip!

Alex Maiolo
Chapel Hill NC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:40:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Land Rover Price in 1959?

On Wed, 13 Jun 2001, Rick Grant wrote:

> The reason I ask is that I got chatting with a Disco driver today who 
> remarked that my rather time worn but reeking of character Series II 
> probably cost the equivalent in 1959 of a Discovery today.  I'd like to 
> check that.

I worked out the price of my 109 sw in 1964 today, and it worked out to
the price of a loaded Disco. (had a sales brochure and the StatsCan cpi
figures)

------------------------------

End of LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #408
**********************************************