Subject: LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #394

From: [email-masked] (LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * *)
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:12:35 -0400

LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * *  Sunday, June 3 2001  Volume 01 : Number 394

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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:35:39 -0700
From: "Gerry Elam" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: disc brakes conversion?

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Anyone done TI Console's disc brake conversion?  

Cheers,
Gerry
PHX AZ
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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Anyone done TI=
 Console's disc brake conversion?&nbsp; <BR><BR>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>Gerry<=
/DIV> <DIV>PHX AZ<BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 18:01:31 -0600
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: disc brakes conversion?

Probably not since you can only buy it through AB, and if they install 
it. A little too pricy in my book.

Gerry Elam wrote:
> Anyone done TI Console's disc brake conversion?  

- -- 
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:07:41 -0700 
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Overworked and underpaid

Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:47:18 -0700
From: Tom Gross <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Overworked and underpaid

>Ok that's it.  I've listened to this crap long enough from Olgive and Faure.
I worked for the government, United States Forest Service, as a fire fighter
until I was 39.  I don't recall feeling particularly fat or underworked
after pulling 24 or 48 hour shifts digging hand line in steep mountain
terrain, breathing smoke that seared my lungs.

I'm not saying my memory is perfect, but I don't recall participating in an 
anti-government-worker thread.  The closest I can remember coming to 
this subject was a comment that the hysteria over asbestos wasn't 
warranted, in my opinion, because if the material is handled intelligently, 
it's benefits could be realized without the health risk.  At that point, I think 
there were some comments about people who work with asbestos, and perhaps 
that turned into a discussion of government workers.  Or maybe I'm misremembering 
things altogether.  But labeling government employees as fat and underworked is  
not something I recall saying unless my name got attached to a post I didn't make.

I HAVE said that I felt most car dealership mechanics were very poor at troubleshooting, 
but I'm not sure that's related to the issue you are concerned with.
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:29:33 -0700 
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: RE: Asbestos

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:43:38 +0100
From: "Steve Mace" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: RE: Asbestos (was tuning by eye)

On 31 May 2001, at 10:36, Faure, Marin wrote:

>> Actually, the graphite does not do anything to lubricate the lining.  The 
> purpose of the lead "inserts" in the edge of the lining (not the face) is to
> dampen the high-frequency vibrations that are the actual source of the squeal. 
> It works for both pads and shoes.

>Presumably under the assumption that a couple of inches of pencil lead is 
going to alter the mass of the pad/shoe enough to actually alter it's vibration 
characteristics?

I'm not going to dispute your numbers, but the vibration dampening effect is 
what ROLLS ROYCE said about the technique in a description of it that I 
read many years ago.  I first read about the lead thing in the early 1970s, 
so the technique has been around at least that long.  (The same RR pamphlet I 
read also described a technique for limo drivers to come to a stop without 
causing the vehicle to rock back slightly, thus avoiding "disturbing" the occupants in 
back.)  There was an sketch of the lead thing, and the holes were drilled 
in the edge of the lining on the shoe, NOT in the face of the shoe.)  
As I recall, the Rolls Royce pamphlet did not describe the technique as a way of 
overcoming the problems of asbestos-free brake lining, but simply as a way to 
eliminate brake squeal if you had it.  Makes sense, as they were still using 
asbestos in brakes in the early '70s.

Over the years, I've had the technique described to me by a few mechanics, and 
they all said the same thing- drill the holes in the edge of the lining material 
parallel and as close to the backing plate as practical.  Then insert the lead 
cores, which effectively break up the vibration patters. The length of the 
cores should be as long as you can get away with. I use pieces about 3 inches 
inches long on our Range Rover, and I put in four of them in each pad.  The 
vehicle had a bad squealing problem at low speeds from day one, but I kept putting 
off doing the lead thing until recently.  When I reinstalled the pads, the squeal was 
gone, and so far it's not come back.

As for dampening vibration, if you give a tuning fork a whack, you can almost 
completely stop the sound by touching it with a just a feather.  So I'm not sure 
mass is the only factor affecting the interruption of high frequencies, which is 
what brake squeal is.

But what I know about physics wouldn't fill a thimble, so I can't make any sort of 
scientific argument supporting the technique as described by Rolls Royce and the 
mechanics I've talked to.  All I know is that following their process, brake squeal 
goes away.  I would assume that if you drilled holes in the face of the pad or shoe, 
you'd accomplish the same thing for the same reason.
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:57:31 -0400
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Wiring advice?

Gerry, were I you I'd think about 2 separate systems - the generic harness
for the essentials and a complete separate secondary harness for the radio
gear and the goodies. Add to this a tertiary harness for lights and
rear-body essentials run off the radio battery and I think that weould be
the best bet.

THis way, you can lose the radio buss completely and still see to fix the
effing thing (and you know it will happen). Also, you can blow all the
circuits in the back boy on the split battery and still get home with the
independent basic harness - no fuss no muss no BS.

Fuses - LOTS of fuses - or a circuit breaker panel. Main fuses for all the
harnesses at the batteries to prevent smoke shows if you clip a wire, too.

Just my .02 - Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:11:06 -0700 
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re:  Overworked and underpaid

Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:47:18 -0700
From: Tom Gross <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Overworked and underpaid

>Ok that's it.  I've listened to this crap long enough from Olgive and Faure.
I worked for the government, United States Forest Service, as a fire fighter
until I was 39.  I don't recall feeling particularly fat or underworked
after pulling 24 or 48 hour shifts digging hand line in steep mountain
terrain, breathing smoke that seared my lungs.

I fought fires, too, for a season in Colorado.  Only I did it from the 
driver's seat on a Cat.  Seemed to me to be a better deal than slogging 
around on the ground with a shovel.  Considering the way things turned 
out in later years, I guess in my case it would be called "survival of the fattest."

While I have complaints about some of the government's policies, I don't have 
anything against government employees (outside of the rule-makers at the FAA).  
Most of the policies I don't like were dreamed up by elected officials, not by the 
government workers saddled with enforcing them.

As to unions, my biggest objection is that they are geared to supporting 
the lowest common denominator.  Union contracts define the minimum 
employees can be paid, not the maximum.  But very few companies, particularly 
those with adversarial relationships with a union, will pay a union member 
MORE than the contract-defined minimum for the grade and seniority of a 
particular job.  Unions tend to remove any incentive for a company to reward 
a worker for doing an exceptional job.  The workforce becomes defined by their 
contract, not by their individual abilities.  So an unmotivated, mediocre union employee 
who barely meets the qualifications to hold onto his or her job will be paid the same 
as a highly motivated, outstanding union employee who happens to have the identical job 
description and seniority.  It's been my observation from having had a union job in 
the past that it doesn't take long for this situation to discourage the motivated 
employee.  This is a generality, I admit, and there are certainly exceptions.  But for 
the most part, unions, which do have their benefits, also have by their very 
nature the downside of stifling individual effort, enthusiasm, and achievement.

Relating this to Land Rovers and the car industry, it would be interesting to hear 
the views on the benefits of unions from some of the UK members of this list old 
enough to recall the situation in Britain's automotive industry during the 1960s and 
'70s.
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 21:19:14 -0400
From: "Hank Rutherford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Colorado Land-Rover Clubs

Does anyone out there have a complete list of Land-Rover clubs in the
Colorado/Wyoming/Arizona area? Even an incomplete list would help......

Hank Rutherford
'62 SerIIa Softtop "Gromit"
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:24:15 -0700
From: "Gerry Elam" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Colorado Land-Rover Clubs

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Arizona: www.azlro.org 
 
Cheers,
Gerry Elam
PHX AZ

Does anyone out there have a complete list of Land-Rover clubs in the
Colorado/Wyoming/Arizona area? Even an incomplete list would help......
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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Arizona: <A hr=
ef=3D"http://www.azlro.org">www.azlro.org</A>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DI=
V> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>Gerry Elam</DIV> <DIV>PHX AZ</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=
 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER=
- -LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Ar=
ial">&nbsp;</DIV>Does anyone out there have a complete list of Land-Rover=
 clubs in the<BR>Colorado/Wyoming/Arizona area? Even an incomplete list w=
ould help......<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 18:38:07 -0700
From: "Gerry Elam" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: disc brakes conversion?

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Jim.. what are you looking at to determine that?  TI's site list themselv=
es as the distributor for the US and Canada.  Or did the liablity issues =
force a change that isn't noted on their site?

If you are right...... well, I don't think that's buying through AB is go=
ing to happen.

If I decide to do it and if necessary, I'll run the purchase through othe=
r friends around the world and then have it shipped to me.  Pay A-B?  S'n=
ot a chance.  =20

Cheers,
Gerry Elam
PHX AZ =20
 =20

>Probably not since you can only buy it through AB, and if they install
>it. A little too pricy in my book.

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Jim.. what are=
 you looking at to determine that?&nbsp; TI's site list themselves as the=
 distributor for the US and Canada.&nbsp; Or did the liablity issues forc=
e a change that isn't noted on their site?</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>I=
f you are right...... well, I don't think that's buying through AB is goi=
ng to happen.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>If I decide to&nbsp;do it and =
if&nbsp;necessary, I'll run the purchase through other friends around the=
 world and then have it shipped&nbsp;to me.&nbsp; Pay A-B?&nbsp; S'not a =
chance.&nbsp; </DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>Gerry Elam=
</DIV> <DIV>PHX AZ&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&=
gt;Probably not since you can only buy it through AB, and if they install=
</DIV> <DIV>&gt;it. A little too pricy in my book.<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML=

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Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:53:43 -0600
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Colorado Land-Rover Clubs

Colo: Solihull Society, Rover Riders, First Mtn Div- if we like you.

Hank Rutherford wrote:
> 
> Does anyone out there have a complete list of Land-Rover clubs in the
> Colorado/Wyoming/Arizona area? Even an incomplete list would help......
> 
> Hank Rutherford
> '62 SerIIa Softtop "Gromit"
> [email-masked]

- -- 
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:56:21 -0600
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: disc brakes conversion?

TI won't sell to anyone in the US except AB if they install them due to
liability issues. Canada may be a different story.

Gerry Elam wrote:
> Jim.. what are you looking at to determine that?  TI's site list themselves as the distributor for the US and Canada.  Or did the liablity issues force a change that isn't noted on their site?

If you are right...... well, I don't think that's buying through AB is
going to happen.

If I decide to do it and if necessary, I'll run the purchase through
other friends around the world and then have it shipped to me.  Pay
A-B?  S'not a chance.   

Cheers,
Gerry Elam
PHX AZ  
  
- -- 
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 23:20:08 -0400
From: "Jean-Leon Morin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: disc brakes conversion?

Kevin Willey, you got your ears on?

He's just put santana diskies on his lightweight, in canada. No liability
issues, or legal crap. Just pure stopping power...

J-L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Hall <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: LRO: disc brakes conversion?

> TI won't sell to anyone in the US except AB if they install them due to
> liability issues. Canada may be a different story.
>
> Gerry Elam wrote:
> > Jim.. what are you looking at to determine that?  TI's site list
themselves as the distributor for the US and Canada.  Or did the liablity
issues force a change that isn't noted on their site?
>
> If you are right...... well, I don't think that's buying through AB is
> going to happen.
>
> If I decide to do it and if necessary, I'll run the purchase through
> other friends around the world and then have it shipped to me.  Pay
> A-B?  S'not a chance.
>
> Cheers,
> Gerry Elam
> PHX AZ
>
> --
> Jim Hall
> 1966 88" Elephant Chaser
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
> "You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling
> with Jim." Mitch Stockdale
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 03:40:58 -0000
From: "N Forbes" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: disc brakes conversion?

>He's just put santana diskies on his lightweight, in canada. No liability
>issues, or legal crap. Just pure stopping power...
>
>J-L

They're sweet too. Front disks, calipers, pads, brake booster - ~$720 Canuck 
Bucks. Taxes, shipping and all. Not too shabby. I'm saving my pennies. They 
work really well. General consensus seems to be to back your rear shoes way 
off or you're just wasting rear brake shoe material ;-)

Niall Forbes
66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
The Nova Scotian Rover - http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/intro.htm

"See the happy moron,
He doesn't give a damn.
I wish I were a moron.
My God! Perhaps I am!"
- --author unknown

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:28:17 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: LRO: British Car Show/ Land Rovers

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Hi All:
     Its that time of year again for our annual British car show to benefit 
High Hopes, which grants "wishes" to terminally or chronically ill children. 
Anyway its in Milford NH on June 17th "Father's Day" from 9:00 am to 3:00 PM. 
This is a British Cars only show so Land Rovers are welcome. We had a great 
showing of Land Rovers last year with about 20 LR's.  Please go to 
http://bcnh.net/    (British Cars Of New Hampshire) for further info and 
Registration form. 
Hope to see you there
Steve Falkowski
69 SIIA 88
65 SIIA 88
75 TR6

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff"><FONT  SIZE=3>Hi All:
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Its that time of year again for our annual British car show to benefit 
<BR>High Hopes, which grants "wishes" to terminally or chronically ill children. 
<BR>Anyway its in Milford NH on June 17th "Father's Day" from 9:00 am to 3:00 PM. 
<BR>This is a British Cars only show so Land Rovers are welcome. We had a great 
<BR>showing of Land Rovers last year with about 20 LR's. &nbsp;Please go to <B>
<BR>http://bcnh.net/ &nbsp;</B>&nbsp;&nbsp;(British Cars Of New Hampshire) for further info and 
<BR>Registration form. 
<BR>Hope to see you there
<BR>Steve Falkowski
<BR>69 SIIA 88
<BR>65 SIIA 88
<BR>75 TR6</FONT></HTML>

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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 17:03:17 -0400
From: William L Leacock <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Gearbox lock up.

What do you mean by gearbox lock up?
 Do you mean that the gearbox itself locks up so that when you let out
the clutch the engine stalls?  or do you mean that you are unable to
select a gear?
 Ser 3 are prone to a problem with the gearlever which can cause the
latter problem, the end of the gearlever is fitted with a plastic ball
(to reduce rattle!) unfortunately the ball wears or breaks easily. Thus
it is possible to shift from one selector to the other before the
selector is in the nuetral position, thus the detent balls prevent the
second selector from moving, creating a selector lock! The only way out
of this is to return the lever to the original selector and ensure that
it is in nuetral.
Cure for this is to repalce the gearlever with the steel ball end type.

Anothe cause of apparent lock up of the selectors is the failure of oneor
more of the springs in the 3/4 gear syncro hub.
Cure for this is to repalce the springs, this is tediuos but can be done
from the top of the box without removing it from the vehicle

 If the transmission itself locks up, there are a number of potentail
causes, all the ones I can think of necessitate the removal of the box to
fix, ranging from loose parts, through broken/damaged sellectors, broken
thrust washers, bearings with broken cages etc. 

If you wish write me off line with more information on the symptoms.

Regards from Western New York State

  Bill Leacock.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:07:14 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

Trying to remove the steering relay.

Top 2 bolts undone.

Bottom 4 bolts on flange undone.  The 4 smaller bolts inside the perimeter
of the flange I am guessing stay put as the flange blocks their removal.

Flange seems "age-welded" as it won't budge.  Neither will the relay unit.

Any suggestions or hints.  Soaked the whole thing down w/ wd-40 too.

Also, the realy thats on the truck has two bolts at oiling points.  One at
the top of the relat spindle and another along the side at the level of the
frame.  I have another relay unit on the shelf that only has the top oiling
point.  Not exactly sure what Series rig this came off of.

Is there a vintage difference between the two?  Any other differences?

My truck is a Series II 1960 109sw.

Thanks.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 22:18:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Rich & Lori Williams wrote:

:Trying to remove the steering relay.
:
:Top 2 bolts undone.
:
:Bottom 4 bolts on flange undone.  The 4 smaller bolts inside the perimeter
:of the flange I am guessing stay put as the flange blocks their removal.
:
:Flange seems "age-welded" as it won't budge.  Neither will the relay unit.
:
:Any suggestions or hints.  Soaked the whole thing down w/ wd-40 too.

Blue wrench the frame seems to be a common solution.  AJR will tell you to
rebuild it in place.  One solution I've seen work is to chain a piece of
1/4" steel plate to the frame, and use the plate to support a bottle jack.  Put
pressure on the bottom of the relay, soak with good penetrating oil, and
leave overnight.  Crank the jack up tight the next morning, and reapply
penetrating oil.  Repeat until done...

David
- -- 
[email-masked]
Bipedalism is only a fad.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 20:45:15 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

> Blue wrench the frame seems to be a common solution.  

What does this mean?

> AJR will tell you to rebuild it in place.

I am sandblasting the frame so I'd like to get it out of there.  

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:12:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Scheidt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, Rich & Lori Williams wrote:

:> Blue wrench the frame seems to be a common solution.
:
:What does this mean?

Oxy-acetylene torch applied to the offenending cross-member, followed by
welding in a replacement bit.

David

- -- 
[email-masked]
Bipedalism is only a fad.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 21:58:28 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

> :> Blue wrench the frame seems to be a common solution.
> :
> :What does this mean?
>
> Oxy-acetylene torch applied to the offenending cross-member, followed by
> welding in a replacement bit.

DUH!  I should have been able to figure that out.

Well hopefully there is another way.  Or do you all think that covering in
duct tape and leaving it in place during sand blasting is best?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:59:04 -0400
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

OK - the ring has to come off - it's likely welded itself to the relay and
is holding it in place. The relay has also likely welded ITself in place -
whis is a not-good thing.

Lots of PB Blaster and try to get it to move either up or down. On ones
I've had to do this to it's taken a lot of time, lots of jacking and lots
of patience to get it to move.

The relay you have is original to the '60 truck - the two oiling points are
correct. the other one is early to mid 60s, before they eliminated the
cross-drilled shaft with the oil fill, but did eliminate the vent hole (the
other bolt).

Have you thought of rebuilding the relay in situ to avoid having to extract
it from the chassis? If it's just leaky but still works right, the seals
can be replaced easily with the relay in the chassis by removing the end
plates - it' won't come apart.

                         ajr

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:00:03 -0400
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

 AJR will tell you to
rebuild it in place.

And why not? <grin>

Man's read my mind.....

               ajr

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:01:33 -0400
From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

Well hopefully there is another way.  Or do you all think that covering in
duct tape and leaving it in place during sand blasting is best?

If you're just blasting the chassis I'd cover the shafts and the seal
points and just leave the doggone thing in there.

Getting it out is going to be a ROYAL bitch...

                    ajr

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 07:54:10 -0600
From: "Todd Kendrick" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Tranny swap/rebuild

    OK so the mainshaft nut did not fix my clunking sound in third gear so I
am beginning to tear down to replace/rebuild the tranny. The original
gearbox in my truck is a suffix "C"; I have also have a used suffix "D"
(without t-case or clutch ? attachments) . The "D"  appears to be in fine
working order; manually shifts OK and really quiet and no obvious teeth
missing. The suffix "C" gearbox was rebuilt here locally (yeee) before I
purchased the truck about 20,000 miles ago so I am a little afraid of what I
might find in there. When I first got it popped out of third gear; stopped
popping out of gear now it makes a loud banging noise when on the gas (bad
synchro?).
    So I removed the old tranny yesterday and am trying to decide to totally
rebuild the "C" or just add new gaskets and bearings to the "D" ?  Any other
ways to check to ensure that the D is OK?  Will everything from my C
(t-case, clutch, etc...) work with the D ? I also need a rear cv-joint for
my rear driveshaft I discovered yesterday. I can get the cv at NAPA right ?
Think I will go ahead and get a new seal for overdrive and what else ? Any
ideas, suggestions, easier ways, etc. will be much appreciated.

Todd Kendrick (digest mode)
Taos, NM
'66 109" P/U
(hanging out w/ hippie friend w/ Green Bible and other green things :>)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 07:47:49 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

> If you're just blasting the chassis I'd cover the shafts and the seal
> points and just leave the doggone thing in there.
>
> Getting it out is going to be a ROYAL bitch...

THE LIST HAS SPOKEN

...the relay will stay put, I'll seal it up and blast around it...unless it
miraculously comes out this a.m. - doubt it though,

Thanks guys.

Rich

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 01 08:08:15 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Tranny swap/rebuild

>   I also need a rear cv-joint for
>my rear driveshaft I discovered yesterday. I can get the cv at NAPA right ?
>Think I will go ahead and get a new seal for overdrive and what else ? Any
>ideas, suggestions, easier ways, etc. will be much appreciated.
>
>'66 109" P/U

I'll let someone with more experiencerebuilding different gearboxes 
answer your first question.

Unless you have done something very unusual to your 109 I think you mean 
'U' joint and not cv-joint.

Yes they are off the shelf Spicer 'U' joints and they should be able to 
match your old one with a new one at NAPA.  

When I have one that is getting tired, I usually replace both on the 
assumption that the second has lots of wear too and will need changine 
out long before the new one will.

When you have the shaft out you may be tempted to seperate the sliding 
end from the main part of the shaft.  If you are, mark both parts so that 
you can reassemble the parts with the same 'U' joint nuckle relationship 
(they go back into the exact same corresponding splines that they were 
in).

Don't forget to lube the new ones frequently.  I like to do it as soon as 
possible after a water crossing and right after any dusty off road trip 
as well.

One last thought.  Go back under and check the tightning of the prop 
shaft about 100 miles after  you reinstall it.  Sometimes those bolts 
will be a little loose  after the shaft has turned a little.

Other than that best luck with your project!!

TeriAnn Wakeman               Marigold Ltd.
Santa Cruz, California        Web design, site updating, testing
[email-masked]      search engine optimization, graphics
                              and more

http://www.overlander.net/Marigold/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 01 08:15:46 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

>...the relay will stay put, I'll seal it up and blast around it...unless it
>miraculously comes out this a.m. - doubt it though,

Never can tell.  When Timm converted my 109 to power steering (look mom 
lock to lock with one finger!) all it took was one tap with a hand sludge.

TeriAnn Wakeman               If you send me direct mail, please
Santa Cruz, California        start the subject line with TW - 
[email-masked]           I will be sure to read the message

http://www.shadow-catcher.net      <- Photography for sale
http://www.overlander.net          <- Web directory for Land Rover 
http://www.cruzers.com/~twakeman   <- My personal web site

"In the world of type A & type B drivers consider me a type C gypsy  
traveler.  Destinations are optional and not necessarily desirable."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 09:46:57 -0600
From: "Jim Hall" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Tranny swap/rebuild

I second that. In fact, I suggest you buy new nylocks to put it on
with as I have seen this happen a lot.

TeriAnn Wakeman wrote:
> One last thought.  Go back under and check the tightning of the prop
> shaft about 100 miles after  you reinstall it.  Sometimes those bolts
> will be a little loose  after the shaft has turned a little.

- -- 
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling 
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 09:17:50 -0700
From: George Simmons <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Weber 2 barrel Carb linkage

Can someone with a 2 bbl Weber on a 2.25 engine plese contact me
about the linkage from the LR bell crank to the carb.  Mine has
never had full throw to the secondary and I want to correct that.

George in Auburn CA

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:04:40 +0100
From: "Frank Elson" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Re:  Overworked and underpaid

Marin writes: >>>Relating this to Land Rovers and the car industry, it would
be interesting to hear
> the views on the benefits of unions from some of the UK members of this
list old
> enough to recall the situation in Britain's automotive industry during the
1960s and
> '70s<<<

do I have some views!

To my mind the history of the Unions in the UK motor industry, and other
industries goes something like this:

During the industrial revolution of the 19th Century owners of mills and
pits acted like dictators. When they wanted a few pounds more they dropped
wages. Conditions were atrocious and unions came in to try to get some
justice. Early unionists were attacked by soldiers for (illegally at the
time) trying to go on strike.
 Eventually we got unions legally and they did a great deal of good.

Then came the 20th Century and, particularly WW2. The war led to a boom in
industry in the UK during the 50's. Every company was making a lot of money.
Every year the Unions marched in and asked for more money and the owners,
who were all making a fortune, handed it over.
 The Unions, therefore, got the feeling that whatever they wanted they could
get - and this was true to a great extent.
 By the time the downturn came in the 60's and 70's the Unions were so
big-headed that they were not prepared to bend. They had three  ideas in
particular that they simply wouldn't budge over.
 1. Differentials. Different jobs had different wage scales but job 1 was
worth (say) half the wage of job  2. If job 1 got a rise, job 2 insisted on
the same rise to 'keep the differential' and the same the other way around.
2. tea breaks/ other perks. We saw strikes that emptied entire factories in
the 60's just 'cos management wanted to alter tea break arrangements. For
instance, in the Austin factory at Cowley I remember, the tea break was 15
minutes and started at 10am. Management told some guys that, if they worked
10-10.15 and had their tea break then, others who had been on break 10-10.15
could start work on items the other lot had worked on... the union called a
strike.
3. Inflexibility over jobs. Worker a did 'this', he did not do 'that' and if
he was told to do it, or workers en masse were asked to do a job that was
not theirs it would cause a strike. You had the fact that (say) a dozen
workers would be sitting around because it was not their job, but another's
to push a button.

So my view is that Unions started off as a 'good thing' but, through
circumstances, became so powerful that they lost sight of land.

Best Cheers

Frank
    +--+--+--+
     I !__|  [_]|_\___
     I ____|"_|"__|_ | /     B791 PKV
     "(o)======(o)"    Bronze Green 110 CSW

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Faure, Marin <[email-masked]>
To: 'Land Rover Mail Group' <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 2:11 AM
Subject: LRO: Re: Overworked and underpaid

> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:47:18 -0700
> From: Tom Gross <[email-masked]>
> Subject: LRO: Overworked and underpaid
>
> >Ok that's it.  I've listened to this crap long enough from Olgive and
Faure.
> I worked for the government, United States Forest Service, as a fire
fighter
> until I was 39.  I don't recall feeling particularly fat or underworked
> after pulling 24 or 48 hour shifts digging hand line in steep mountain
> terrain, breathing smoke that seared my lungs.
>
> I fought fires, too, for a season in Colorado.  Only I did it from the
> driver's seat on a Cat.  Seemed to me to be a better deal than slogging
> around on the ground with a shovel.  Considering the way things turned
> out in later years, I guess in my case it would be called "survival of the
fattest."
>
> While I have complaints about some of the government's policies, I don't
have
> anything against government employees (outside of the rule-makers at the
FAA).
> Most of the policies I don't like were dreamed up by elected officials,
not by the
> government workers saddled with enforcing them.
>
> As to unions, my biggest objection is that they are geared to supporting
> the lowest common denominator.  Union contracts define the minimum
> employees can be paid, not the maximum.  But very few companies,
particularly
> those with adversarial relationships with a union, will pay a union member
> MORE than the contract-defined minimum for the grade and seniority of a
> particular job.  Unions tend to remove any incentive for a company to
reward
> a worker for doing an exceptional job.  The workforce becomes defined by
their
> contract, not by their individual abilities.  So an unmotivated, mediocre
union employee
> who barely meets the qualifications to hold onto his or her job will be
paid the same
> as a highly motivated, outstanding union employee who happens to have the
identical job
> description and seniority.  It's been my observation from having had a
union job in
> the past that it doesn't take long for this situation to discourage the
motivated
> employee.  This is a generality, I admit, and there are certainly
exceptions.  But for
> the most part, unions, which do have their benefits, also have by their
very
> nature the downside of stifling individual effort, enthusiasm, and
achievement.
>
> .
> ___________________________
> C. Marin Faure
>   (original owner)
>   1973 Land Rover Series III-88
>   1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
>   Seattle
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:23:58 -0400
From: "Jean-Leon Morin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

Clear packing tape, put on very thick, seems to resist sandblasting very
very well. Just put a lot on, I suspect duct tape`s somewhat textured
surface gives the sand some purchas, incentive to tear it off...

I would simply blast it in place, and replace the seals...

J-L
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Rich & Lori Williams <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

> > :> Blue wrench the frame seems to be a common solution.
> > :
> > :What does this mean?
> >
> > Oxy-acetylene torch applied to the offenending cross-member, followed by
> > welding in a replacement bit.
>
>
> DUH!  I should have been able to figure that out.
>
> Well hopefully there is another way.  Or do you all think that covering in
> duct tape and leaving it in place during sand blasting is best?
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 14:47:57 EDT
From: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: LRO: Weber 2 barrel Carb linkage

- --part1_e0.159b68d4.284be05d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I've got one here in Sacramento. Will looking be better than photos?
Zack
916-992-1373

- --part1_e0.159b68d4.284be05d_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF" FACE="Book Antiqua" LANG="0">I've got one here in Sacramento. Will looking be better than photos?
<BR>Zack
<BR>916-992-1373</FONT></HTML>

- --part1_e0.159b68d4.284be05d_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 12:11:58 -0700
From: "Rich & Lori Williams" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Steering Relay Removal

Well as luck would have it, the relay basically just popped right our this
morning.

Before I left the garage last night I doused the whole thing in WD-40 and
let it sit.  This morning I gave it another flushing with WD-40 and the
bottom flange came right off with a few light taps from the side of a
wrench.

The main unit lifted out with a little pulling and twinsting but not a full
muscle's worth.

Now that it's out, what do I want to look for when sorting through the
thing?  Some have mentioned replacing seals and gaskets.  Anything in
particular?  Anthing peculiar about these things I should be aware of before
digging in?

And many thanks to all of you online and off that sent me many helpful
suggestions.

Rich

------------------------------

End of LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #394
**********************************************