Subject: LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #357

From: [email-masked] (LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * *)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:59:27 -0400

LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * Wednesday, April 25 2001 Volume 01 : Number 357

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:51:45 -0700
From: "Rich Williams II" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: test

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:59:49 -0700
From: "Rich Williams II" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: LRO - RR Inq.

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:03:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Ray Harder <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Range Rover Inquiry

rich, others may have had good experiences, but
i will tell you mine.  i was watching an rr
selling on ebay.  the description sounded good
and it was represented as problem free --  the pictures
looked good.  i was tempted to bid, but just watched.
anyway, it didn't get to the reserved price.
we were going to that (UNNAMED) city the very next week
and i called the owner.  went by and looked at it
and i was *shocked*.  the 95 rangie had had a hard
life.  rust, corrosion, just looked like it came
from a downtown detroit winter.  i told the owner
that i didn't want that vehicle *at any price* and
left.  anyway, i learned that buying sight-unseen
on ebay might be a pig in a poke...  my current rules are
to see it, touch it, drive it before reaching for
the wallet... (hey, i still buy the small stuff
sight unseen on ebay, though.  where do you draw the
line...)

ray harder -- currently range-rover-less...
 
On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Rich Williams II wrote:

> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:38:47 -0700
> From: Rich Williams II <[email-masked]>
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: LRO: Range Rover Inquiry
> 
> Okay everyone, I need some help.  I need another vehicle and would like some input.
> 
> Here's what I want to use this additional vehicle for:
> 
> 1)      Daily driving
> 2)      Dog hauling - needs air conditioning
> 3)      road trips and vacations
> 4)      camping and light off road use
> 
> I am open to anything that makes sense.  It doesn't need to be a LR (SWMBO says "NYET" to any additional Series trucks BTW) but I am curious about older Range Rovers, say pre 1995.  Fell free to email me off-list, I'll put both addresses at the bottom.  If those of you with RRs could chime in I would appreciate it.  If anyone else has any different suggestions, I am open to those too.  Ah yes, how much?  Well I am in the middle of a frame off project on my 109 so I'd like to be as economical as possible but I don't want a POS that I am always struggling with either.  What's reasonable here?  I don't know, maybe between $5-8K.
> 
> Here are the questions I have regarding Range Rovers.
> 
> 1) Besides lrx.com are there any other good web resources for finding rovers for sale?
> 2) Any good web resources for finding good information on the various Range Rover model years, etc.?
> 3) Are there particular model years that are substantially problematic or troublesome?  When do they become so complex that you basically need to go to the dealer for service?
> 4) What kind of problems specific to RRs do I want to look out for when looking at these?
> 5) What different motor variations available?  I have seen the 3.5L and the 3.9L engines but are there others that I should seek out or stay away from?  Any pros or cons with the 3.5 of the 3.9?
> 6) What tranny do most prefer as far as auto vs. manual?  Which one seems more durable?  How capable is the auto tranny off-road?   How are the manual trannys configured - 4 speed w/ OD or just 5 speed?
> 7) What's the real difference between the LWB and SWB models in terms of real space?
> 8) Is a RR just a RR or are there different model sub-variants besides LWB and SWB versions? 
> 9) What else should I know before seriously looking at one to buy?
> 10) I have seen several on lrx.com that are listed at $5-8K with 150-200K miles on them.  At what point do these things get to be as much "trouble" as a Series truck.
> 11) What's it usually take to make a stock RR a decent off road truck?  Are they good to go as is or do people have to go to great lengths with various modifications.  And I am talking cost here basically.
> 
> Well, hopefully this won't cause too many flame wars.  (:-]  And don't be shy.  If someone out there has something available feel free to let me know.
> 
> Thanks everyone.
> 
> Rich Williams
> Redmond, Washington
> 1960 SII 109sw
> 19xx RR ??? - well maybe sometime soon
> HOME: [email-masked]
> OFFICE: [email-masked]
> 

Sincerely,

Ray Harder 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:21:35 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re:  IIa Mechanical Fuel Pump

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 01 08:56:06 -0700
From: TeriAnn Wakeman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: IIa Mechanical Fuel Pump

>>Yes that's it, but getting at those two nuts can be an exercise in 
>inventing new words.

>I've removed the series fuel pump a number of times in over 20 years of 
ownership and I don't remember it being a big deal.

I replaced the fuel pump on my SIII once many years ago, and like TeriAnn, 
I don't recall there was anything tricky whatsoever about the job.  Disconnect 
the fuel in and out lines, remove the glass sediment bowl so it won't break 
when you accidentally drop the pump, remove the couple of bolts or nuts holding 
the pump to the block, and that's it.

I wouldn't be surprised if I had to use an open-end wrench on the bolts 
at the time, as I'm always running into that sort of thing on the Land Rover, 
but I don't recall fighting a stubborn fastener that was overly hard to get at.  I 
don't even remember if I did the job from above or below the vehicle, but if I 
did it from above, I'm sure I removed the bonnet entirely as it really gets in your 
way when you do these sort of jobs.  But I would have used the factory service 
manual and followed the instructions to the letter.  I seem to recall the whole job 
took less than an hour, but I may be mis-remembering that.

_________________________________________
C. Marin Faure
Producer/Director, Boeing Video Services
telephone (425)393-7721
mobile (206)650-5622
fax: (425)393-7741
e-mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:27:27 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: IIa Mechanical Fuel Pump

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:12:09 -0400
From: "RON WARD" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: IIa Mechanical Fuel Pump

>What?  The two nuts that are visible from above that sit on 
either side of the fuel pump assembly are connected to two 
loose bolts coming through the side cover (which is in turn 
attached by 5 or 6 bolts to the actual side of the engine)?  
So how does anyone successfully remove the pump by 
removing the two pump body nuts?

I don't have my factory service manual here at work, and it's 
been years since I replaced the fuel pump on my SIII, so I 
don't recall every move I made during the process.  But I know 
for a FACT that I did not remove the engine side cover, just whatever 
it is that holds the pump assembly to the side of the block.  Possibly 
the IIa version of the engine uses a different fastener system, but on the 
2.25 petrol SIII, there certainly was no need to remove the engine side 
cover.

_________________________________________
C. Marin Faure
Producer/Director, Boeing Video Services
telephone (425)393-7721
mobile (206)650-5622
fax: (425)393-7741
e-mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:28:01 -0400
From: Perrone Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Range Rover Inquiry

<html><head></head><body>Rich,<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;&nbsp; GREAT stuff!&nbsp; A RR Classic will give you all the things you say you are
looking for.&nbsp; I will try to answer each of your numbered questions in turn
and offer my email address and phone number of you need more help.<br>
<br>
<br>
Rich Williams II wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
  <div>&nbsp;Okay everyone, I need some help.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I need another vehicle and would like 
some input.</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>Here&#8217;s what I want to use this additional vehicle for:</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>1)<span style="font-family: &apos;Times New Roman&apos;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</span>Daily driving</div>
  <div>2)<span style="font-family: &apos;Times New Roman&apos;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</span>Dog hauling &#8211; needs air conditioning</div>
  <div>3)<span style="font-family: &apos;Times New Roman&apos;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</span>road trips and vacations</div>
  <div>4)<span style="font-family: &apos;Times New Roman&apos;; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none; ">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</span>camping and light off road use</div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div>1) Besides lrx.com are there any other good web resources for finding 
rovers for sale?</div>
  </blockquote>
Ebay, Bear Valley Land Rovers (expensive but quality) the lists, land rover clubs...<br>
  <br>
  <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
    <div>2) Any good web resources for finding good information on the various Range&nbsp; Rover model years, etc.&#8230;?</div>
    </blockquote>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.rangerovers.net">http://www.rangerovers.net</a> &nbsp; Should have everything you need.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
      <div>3) Are there particular model years that are substantially problematic or 
troublesome?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>When do they become so 
complex that you basically need to go to the dealer for service?</div>
      </blockquote>
There have only been a few additions in the RR classic line that made these
vehicles tougher to service.&nbsp; Different transfer case in 1989 is less robust
but quieter.&nbsp; ABS brakes added in 1990.&nbsp; Replacement parts are expensive.&nbsp;
And Air suspension added in 1993.&nbsp; Unreliable, and you don't want to KNOW
how much it costs to fix.&nbsp; However, you may get lucky and find someone who
wants to rid themselves of one of these cheap.&nbsp; If so, buy it.&nbsp; They are
nice, and changing over to coils can be done for a few hundred bucks.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
        <div>4) What kind of problems specific to RRs do I want to look out for when&nbsp; looking at these?</div>
        </blockquote>
Air suspension on post 1993 models, ABS problems in 1990 and later models,
self leveling unit on all pre-1993 models ($500 or upgrade to decent springs
and remove the crappy thing), seat switches, central locking in some cases,
fuel pump, transfer case output housing on post 1989 models.&nbsp; Most other
things are similar to other LR coil sprung models.<br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
          <div>5) What different motor variations available?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I have seen the 3.5L and the 3.9L 
engines but are there others that I should seek out or stay away from?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Any pros or cons with the 3.5 of the 
3.9?</div>
          </blockquote>
The 3.9 has better power than the 3.5.&nbsp; I'd go for that one. The 4.2l of
the long wheelbase can be a little more prone to bottom end failure due to
increased torque on a fairly weak block.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
            <div>6) What tranny do most prefer as far as auto vs. manual?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Which one seems more durable?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>How capable is the auto tranny 
off-road?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>How are the manual 
trannys configured &#8211; 4 speed w/ OD or just 5 speed?</div>
            </blockquote>
There were no manual tranny models officially sold in the US.&nbsp; The auto off-road will embarrass almost anything else.. period.<br>
            <br>
            <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
              <div>7) What&#8217;s the real difference between the LWB and SWB models in terms of&nbsp; real space?</div>
              </blockquote>
BIG!&nbsp; At 6'0" and 240#, I can comfortably ride in the back of the LWB model
with a tall person in front of me.&nbsp; 8" more legroom in this model.&nbsp; In fact,
there is almost as much rear legroom as front.&nbsp; This is fabulous if you have
a family.<br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
                <div> </div>
                <div>8) Is a RR just a RR or are there different model sub-variants besides LWB 
and SWB versions?&nbsp;</div>
                </blockquote>
There are a few variants, but they are really only trim level changes.&nbsp; Some
variants like the Hunter Edition (1991) had cloth seats and no ABS, and no
Sunroof.&nbsp; In most other cases the variants are just color, and a few options
(my 91 County SE was only available in black and had the 8 speaker system
with a Subwoofer)<br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
                  <div>9) What else should I know before seriously looking at one to buy?</div>
                  </blockquote>
Call me and lets talk.<br>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
                    <div>10) I have seen several on lrx.com that are listed at $5-8K with 150-200K 
miles on them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>At what point do 
these things get to be as much &#8220;trouble&#8221; as a Series truck.</div>
                    </blockquote>
They are all as much trouble as a series truck!&nbsp; All land rovers leak, all
have rusting problems if you live in that climate, etc.&nbsp; You'll be surprised
at how similar it really is to what you are used to.<br>
                    <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
                      <div>11) What&#8217;s it usually take to make a stock RR a decent off road truck?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Are they good to go as is or do people&nbsp; have to go to great lengths with various modifications.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And I am talking cost here&nbsp; basically.</div>
                      </blockquote>
Nothing.&nbsp; It will keep up with your series truck off the showroom floor..
and will leave your series truck in some instances...&nbsp; The best change to
make is to add tires first, then a decent set of springs and shocks, and
recovery points.&nbsp; After that, its all the normal stuff.&nbsp; Tougher axles, lift
kit, lockers, winch, etc.<br>
                      <br>
                      <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7">
                        <div>Well, hopefully this won&#8217;t cause too many flame wars.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>(:-]</div>
                        </blockquote>
Why would it?<br>
                        <br>
                        <br>
- -Perrone<br>
</body></html>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:04:34 -0500
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Luis_Ml_Guti=E9rrez?= <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE: LRO: RE: Re: Pictures of JL's vehicle

It is good to know who you.are
as well as where we are going.to

Ihave been trying to revive the geocities page with no luck. I think I'll
make a new one and change the link in the go.to

I will let you know.

Luis M.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Hall <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: LRO: RE: Re: Pictures of JL's vehicle

Because I have I.am/landrover, and one day I went through all the
available names to see what other land rover pages there were.

Luis Ml Gutiérrez wrote:
>
> You know something, I really had forgoten about that.
> I'll see if I can find a password for setting it again.
> 'Never did nothing with that. Well, maybe the time is now.
>
> Now you tell me something Jim, How come you DO know about that site? You
> keep a secret database on all of us?
> :-)
>
> Luis M.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Hall <[email-masked]>
> To: <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 8:23 PM
> Subject: Re: LRO: RE: Re: Pictures of JL's vehicle
>
> But you have a web page. Perhaps you got it a long time ago and forgot
> about it. http://go.to/landrover or
> http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/1886/index.html  Or else there is
> another Gutierrez in Costa Rica who likes Land Rovers.
>
> Luis Ml Gutiérrez wrote:
> >
> > In this precise moment I have one in my hands.Its a little dark but the
> > setting is ok (in the middle of a cloud forest reserve. I think I even
> have
> > it scanned somewhere.
> > What I dont have is time to make a web page for it.
> > Anyone with room for it?
> >
> > Luis M.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jim Hall <[email-masked]>
> > To: <[email-masked]>
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: LRO: RE: Re: Pictures of JL's vehicle
> >
> > Speaking of pictures, when are you going to put some up of your rover
> > Luis?
> >
> > Luis Ml Gutiérrez wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sorry JL. I think I was the first to ask for pictures a while
> ago....
> > >
> > > :-]
> > >
> > > Luis M.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Jean-Leon Morin <[email-masked]>
> > >
> > > > Jeeze, I really don't know when all this hype is about...
> > > >
> > > > Valdez is...
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > Version: 6.0.249 / Virus Database: 122 - Release Date: 13/04/01
> >
> > --
> > Jim Hall
> > 1966 88" Elephant Chaser
> > http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
> > "You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling
> > with Jim." Mitch Stockdale
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.249 / Virus Database: 122 - Release Date: 13/04/01
>
> --
> Jim Hall
> 1966 88" Elephant Chaser
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
> "You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling
> with Jim." Mitch Stockdale
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.249 / Virus Database: 122 - Release Date: 14/04/01

- --
Jim Hall
1966 88" Elephant Chaser
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo
"You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling
with Jim." Mitch Stockdale

- ---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.249 / Virus Database: 122 - Release Date: 15/04/01

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:26:59 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Range Rover Inquiry

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:33:00 -0700
From: "Rich Williams II" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Range Rover Inquiry

>Here are the questions I have regarding Range Rovers.
1) Besides lrx.com are there any other good web resources for finding =
rovers for sale?

Dont' know.

>2) Any good web resources for finding good information on the various =
Range Rover model years, etc.?

I suppose you could subscribe to the Range Rover equivelent of this list.

>3) Are there particular model years that are substantially problematic =
or troublesome?  When do they become so complex that you basically need =
to go to the dealer for service?

US-spec Range Rovers require dealer servicing for a lot of stuff unless you are a 
REALLY well equipped mechanic.  As soon as you get into air conditioning problems, 
engine control computer problems, ABS computer problems, etc., you're probably 
talking dealer unless you have the equipment and know-how to troubleshoot electro-
mechanical systems like these.

>4) What kind of problems specific to RRs do I want to look out for when =
looking at these?

A lot of thing fail in the vicinity of the 100,000 mile mark.  Radiators, water 
pumps, steering pumps and boxes, and suspension bushings you can 
pretty much count on to give up the ghost at this time, depending on how 
the vehicle has been driven.  Electrical items like central door locking, 
seat and window relays, and ABS can be troublesome at any time.

>5) What different motor variations available?  I have seen the 3.5L and =
the 3.9L engines but are there others that I should seek out or stay =
away from?  Any pros or cons with the 3.5 of the 3.9?

Under no circumstances (unless you like throwing money away) buy 
a Range Rover 4.2 LWB.  The engine is a failure waiting to happen.  I won't 
go into details here, but suffice it to say enlarging the displacement 
from 3.9 to 4.2 (actually done by TVR) was a good idea that didn't work in the 
case of the Range Rover.  The block flexes under load, and blows head 
gaskets and develops oil leaks.  This engine is why they developed the 4.0/4.6 
variant for the new model Range Rover.  Also, the 1st generation air suspension 
on the 4.2 LWB is the system Rover used to learn how NOT to make an air suspension.
Bad vehicle all around except for the extra eight inches of rear seat legroom- avoid it like 
the plague.

6) What tranny do most prefer as far as auto vs. manual?  Which one =
seems more durable?  How capable is the auto tranny off-road?   How are =
the manual trannys configured - 4 speed w/ OD or just 5 speed?

If you're in the US, you have no choice, as the only Range Rovers imported have 
automatics.  It is a very good transmission, built by ZF, and is a derivative of the 
automatic transmission used in BMWs and Mercedes.  If you import a Range Rover 
from the UK or wherever that's over 25 years old, you can get one with a manual 
transmission.  But unlike the Discoveries brought into the US, all the Range Rovers 
imported are automatics.  If you're outside the US, Rover used a 3-speed Chrysler 
automatic for awhile.  Despite the transmission's good reputation in the US, I have 
read nothing but Bad Things about that transmission as used in the Range Rover.  
Quite trouble-prone, apparently, although it shouldn't be.  The manuals are good, 
except those built in the early 90s.  There were bad quality problems at the supplier, 
and as a consequence, Range Rovers, Discoveries, and Defenders built with manual 
transmissions during that time have a high rate of failures.  The good news is that 
most of these vehicles will have had their failed transmissions replaced by now, usually 
under warranty.

>7) What's the real difference between the LWB and SWB models in terms of =
real space?

Besides the LWB being total crap mechanically, the difference is eight inches of 
legroom in the rear seat.  The front seat and bed areas are the same.  The extra 
eight inches is very nice, but not worth the potential expenses lurking in the engine 
and suspension.

>8) Is a RR just a RR or are there different model sub-variants besides =
LWB and SWB versions?=20

All "classic" Range Rovers are the same in terms of frame, body, etc.  The LWB 
has more legroom in the rear seat via a stretched frame and wheelbase.  It also 
has the first generation air suspension, which like the 4.2 engine, is a repair bill waiting 
to be paid.  The classic coil spring Range Rover's basic chassis was used as the platform 
for the Discovery.  There was a "stripped down" Range Rover imported to the US in 1991 
called the Hunter.  While the chassis, drive train, and engine are identical to the standard 
and County models, the Hunter does not have anti sway bars, a front spoiler with fog lights, 
a sunroof, or power leather seats.  The interior trim is more sparse than the regular 
model.  This was an attempt by the importer to create a more affordable Range Rover 
(the Hunter had a sticker price of $38,000 while the standar model had a sticker price 
of $44,900.  The Hunter proved not very popular with US buyers, and this version was 
soon dropped, leaving only the standard and County models.  They differ only in trim and 
interior appointments.  A Hunter can be identified from the back by the stylized horse and 
rider logo at the lower right corner of the tailgate.

>9) What else should I know before seriously looking at one to buy?

The US-spec version MUST use premium fuel unless you want to change the 
valve timing and other things.  It gets 13 mpg in town, maybe 18mph on the highway 
unless you have a really strong tailwind.  Parts are VERY expensive, unless you order 
them from the UK, in which case the parts prices are reasonable but the shipping will 
more than make up for it (been there, done that many times).  Dealer labor charges are 
close to $100 an hour now.  Some parts price examples- radiator- $700, ABS computer, 
$1,500, brake caliper rebuild/replacement (one axle only)- $1,000 minimum, fan viscous 
clutch- $400, dealer "tune up," $600 assuming they find nothing wrong.

>10) I have seen several on lrx.com that are listed at $5-8K with =
150-200K miles on them.  At what point do these things get to be as much =
"trouble" as a Series truck.

They can be as much "trouble" as a Series from the day they leave the factory.  Or 
they can go for a couple of hundred thousand miles very reliably.  The build/mechanical 
quality is very spotty.  There are great ones and there are dogs.  I personally would never 
buy a used Range Rover in the US, as there are too many ways the previous 
owner can screw it up.  It MUST have the oil and filter changed every 3,000 miles regardless 
of what the manual and dealer say.  This is because the hydraulic lifters in the Rover V-8 
are very susceptible to dirt, and if they start to stick, they quickly pound the cam lobe flat.  
Big bucks repair bill.  The aluminum engine MUST have the correct grade of coolant in it, and 
it MUST be in good condition, which means an annual change at least.  The engine MUST 
be fed only premium fuel.  Many US Range Rover owners in the US do not give them this 
kind of attention.

>11) What's it usually take to make a stock RR a decent off road truck?

Lots and lots of money :-)  Actually, I've found the stock coil spring Range Rover 
to be very, very good off-road as it is.  I use it for moose hunting in BC and for 
towing a 3,000 poound boat hundreds of miles on dirt roads in BC and on Vancouver Island.  The 
only real detriment is the rear overhang.  The front spoiler is easily removed, and in fact 
the owners manual has the instructions for doing so.  The Range Rover can be fitted with 
an ARB air locker on the differential- one on the rear should suffice for dealing with almost 
any bad mud or whatever situation you might come across.  Bear in mind that if not used 
intelligently, a locking differential can ruin your driveline in short order.

I was very leery of using an automatic off road, as I was used to the manual in my SIII, but 
after 10 years now, I've found the automatic actually has some advantages.  So I'm no longer 
an advocate of manual-only in off-road driving. Both have their advantages and disadvantages; 
it's much more a matter of the driver knowing how to use what he has effectively than which 
type of tranmission is the best.

There have been reports that the viscous clutch (used in place of the lock on the center differential)
can fail or cease working temporarily under continuous, high-stress off-roading that overheats 
the clutch fluid and components.  But I suspect that if this is the kind of off-road work you want 
to do, a Range Rover is not your best choice anyway.
 
In my opinion, the best years for US-spec Range Rovers are 91 and 92.  The 4.2 LWB was 
introduced in '93, and that was the end of Range Rover as a viable on-off road vehicle as far 
as I'm concerned.  The 4.2 LWB is just plain crap, and the new model, while fabulous from 
a technical point of view, is getting awfully fancy for anyone but the extremely wealthy to consider 
beating up on the trail.

We've been very happy with our '91 Vogue SE.  It has 118,000 miles on it, and the things that 
are supposed to give out at 100,000 miles have done so, or are doing so.  But it's been quite 
reliable.  However, it's had only one owner, and we've taken care of every problem as it's arisen, 
and have kept the oil clean and the coolant fresh.  We drive it pretty conservatively, shifting 
into a lower gear range when climbing hills, for example, to keep the transmission from hunting 
back and forth.  We also shift down manually when towing the boat up a hill.  I think we've used the 
kick-down feature of the transmission twice in ten years.  So we've been pretty easy on it, even 
when we take if off-road or into "working" mode.

Including warranty problems, we've had: 
a leaking hub seal, failed air condtioner fans, leaking brake caliper seal, bad fan belts, failed 
cruise control, failed wiper motor relay, failed window switch, failed ABS computer, failed 
fan viscous clutch, loose windshield wiper motor, non-functioning tailgate lock, failed seat 
adjustment switch, cracked road wheel, failed trailing arm bushings.  With the exception 
of the ABS computer, all the items listed were either warranty items within the first year of 
ownership, or problems my wife and I fixed ourselves.

We are not at all sorry we bought the vehicle, but when we were contemplating trading up to 
a new model Range Rover the other year, we decided we preferred the styling and relative 
simplicity of the coil spring model we have now, so we elected to keep our '91.  But I would 
caution anyone contemplating buying any Range Rover to be aware of the potential cost 
of ownership, because it can be amazingly high.  The purchase price may be the least of 
your expenses in the long run.
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:45:02 -0700
From: "Faure, Marin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: LRO: Re: Range Rover questions

In a previous post, I was not at all complimentary about the 
Range Rover 4.2 LWB.  While there may be some of you 
who take issue with my statements about that model, I do 
want to say that my comments were not based on personal 
experience with the vehicle, as I've not had any.  The comments 
I made were based on the service records of the local dealership 
shop, and the opinions of the mechanics who work 
on these vehicles.  They were also based on the opinions and 
experiences of a good friend who owns a commercial vehicle hire 
company in the UK near Manchester, and who has had Range 
Rovers and Land Rovers in his fleet for decades.  If there's 
anyone who can attest to the strengths and weakness of a vehicle, 
it's the folks who work on them for a living.
___________________________
C. Marin Faure
  (original owner)
  1973 Land Rover Series III-88
  1991 Range Rover Vogue SE
  Seattle

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 18:04:40 -0400
From: "Alex Maiolo" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: LRO: Range Rover Inquiry

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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    Here's what I want to use this additional vehicle for:

    1)      Daily driving

    >It's not a Mercedes luxury class, but it's a fine ride for what it =
is

    2)      Dog hauling - needs air conditioning

    >The AC is decent until you get into the deep South in July.
    Excels at dog hauling. The truck sits up high and gives you and the =
dogs a great field of view. I can't help you with the bad breath thing =
though - take that up with the dogs.

    3)      road trips and vacations

    >Brilliant. My first RR was like a pair of well worn jeans or a =
Barbour coat. Broken in, well-traveled - oh the stories...

    4)      camping and light off road use

    >Perfect. Get a roof rack, and consider one that's removable if this =
will be your daily driver. They can be noisey and make your sucky fuel =
economy suckier. Plus, when the roof's open you'll think it's Valhalla =
time.

    1) Besides lrx.com are there any other good web resources for =
finding rovers for sale?

  >LRX is really good. Try your local paper too.

    2) Any good web resources for finding good information on the =
various Range  Rover model years, etc..?

    >Ask away. We're a helpful lot.

    3) Are there particular model years that are substantially =
problematic or troublesome?  When do they become so complex that you =
basically need to go to the dealer for service?

  >Stay pre-BMW. 89-92 are pretty nice.

    4) What kind of problems specific to RRs do I want to look out for =
when  looking at these?

    >Rusty tailgate and wheel wells. Slipping tranny on a ragged out =
one. Headliners. Just accept that the stereo sucks and get over that =
one. A well maintained engine will serve you nicely. Avoid a dumbass' =
trash.

    5) What different motor variations available?  I have seen the 3.5L =
and the 3.9L engines but are there others that I should seek out or stay =
away from?  Any pros or cons with the 3.5 of the 3.9?

    >On SWBs, they are 3.9 from '89 on. Features of the 87 and 88's =
include a manually locking diff, but they are 3.5.=20
    The 3.5 ain't bad, but the 3.9 has many improvements. I'm personally =
quite fond of the early 89s, but anything up between '89 and '92 should =
be a good balance of performance and simplicity. The LWBs have the 4.2.

    6) What tranny do most prefer as far as auto vs. manual?  Which one =
seems more durable?  How capable is the auto tranny off-road?   How are =
the manual trannys configured - 4 speed w/ OD or just 5 speed?

    >All US spec RRs are auto, and they work great. The first year of =
the Disco (in the US - 1994) has a manual option.=20
    You should consider a Disco as well, they are marvelous trucks and =
can be had for a nice price, since there are more of them. Either way, =
the auto trans is the way to go - and I'm a 5-speed guy normally.

    7) What's the real difference between the LWB and SWB models in =
terms of  real space?

    >I've heard quite a bit, but I've never owned one.=20

    8) Is a RR just a RR or are there different model sub-variants =
besides LWB and SWB versions?=20

    >The early Hunters were simple - cloth, manual sunroof, etc, and the =
later Hunters were more posh (or maybe it's the other way around). Great =
Divides have a shallower airdam, but basically there are two models:=20
    Standard and County.=20
    County has a chrome bumper, some wood inside and a few other =
niceties.

    9) What else should I know before seriously looking at one to buy?

    >It's better to spend more money on one that's had a good life, than =
finding a trashed "bargain."
    If you spend $6k and need an engine rebuild and a tranny within a =
year, you'll have $13k into it if you do the work yourself and use =
rebuilt or used parts. Better to spend $8500 now and get a peach. They =
are out there.

    10) I have seen several on lrx.com that are listed at $5-8K with =
150-200K miles on them.  At what point do these things get to be as much =
"trouble" as a Series truck.

    > Day one?
    Nah. Heed my words on the "hard life" thing. All 4wds are expensive =
to keep on the road, but they are more expensive exponentially if you =
get one that's done heavy off-roading - no exception.
    A decently maintained RR can go 250k easily. I have a pal who has =
nearly half a mil on his and he's thinking about rebuilding after one =
more winter. The ancillaries may fail over time, but the engine is good =
if you're nice to it - use good oil, change often, service the tranny, =
and for the love of god, don't run it hot!

    11) What's it usually take to make a stock RR a decent off road =
truck?  Are they good to go as is or do people  have to go to great =
lengths with various modifications.  And I am talking cost here  =
basically.

    >You say you want to do "light" off-roading, and I assume you'll =
keep the fun stuff (     ;)      ) to the Series truck. If so, stock is =
really nice. Find a good on and off-road hybrid tire. I personally hate =
the BFG All Terrain ( the "no terrain"...) but ask around. I like =
Dunlops, Coopers and Armstrongs. Fairly quiet on-road, and pretty good =
off-road. Balance often!
    Bilsteins and new bushings help, as do decent springs.
    I swear a stock RR will shame most trucks in the mud, and you can =
drive it to the theatre in style.

    Where are you? I have friend in VA that has a nice one for sale.

    Alex Maiolo
    Chapel Hill NC

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Here&#8217;s what I want to use this additional vehicle =
for:</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>1)<SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &apos; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-VARIANT: normal; =
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; Times: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size-adjust: none">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN>Daily driving</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;It's not a Mercedes luxury class, but it's a fine ride for =
what it=20
    is</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>2)<SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &apos; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-VARIANT: normal; =
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; Times: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size-adjust: none">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN>Dog hauling &#8211; needs air conditioning</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;The AC is decent until you get into the deep South in =
July.</DIV>
    <DIV>Excels at dog hauling. The truck sits up high and gives you and =
the=20
    dogs a great field of view. I can't help you with the bad breath =
thing=20
    though - take that up with the dogs.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>3)<SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &apos; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-VARIANT: normal; =
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; Times: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size-adjust: none">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN>road trips and vacations</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;Brilliant. My first RR was like a pair of well worn jeans =
or a=20
    Barbour coat. Broken in, well-traveled - oh the stories...</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>4)<SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &apos; FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-VARIANT: normal; =
FONT-WEIGHT: normal; LINE-HEIGHT: normal; Times: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size-adjust: none">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN>camping and light off road use</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;Perfect. Get a roof rack, and consider one that's removable =
if this=20
    will be your daily driver. They can be noisey and make your sucky =
fuel=20
    economy suckier. Plus, when the roof's open you'll think it's =
Valhalla=20
    time.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>1) Besides lrx.com are there any other good web resources for =
finding=20
    rovers for sale?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&gt;LRX is really good. Try your local paper too.<BR><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>2) Any good web resources for finding good information on the =
various=20
    Range&nbsp; Rover model years, etc.&#8230;?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;Ask away. We're a helpful lot.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>3) Are there particular model years that are substantially =
problematic=20
    or troublesome?<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>When =
do they=20
    become so complex that you basically need to go to the dealer for=20
    service?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&gt;Stay pre-BMW. 89-92 are pretty nice.<BR><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>4) What kind of problems specific to RRs do I want to look out =
for=20
    when&nbsp; looking at these?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;Rusty tailgate and wheel wells. Slipping tranny on a ragged =
out=20
    one. Headliners. Just accept that the stereo sucks and get over that =
one. A=20
    well maintained engine will serve you nicely. Avoid a dumbass'=20
  trash.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>5) What different motor variations available?<SPAN=20
    style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>I have seen the 3.5L and =
the 3.9L=20
    engines but are there others that I should seek out or stay away =
from?<SPAN=20
    style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Any pros or cons with the =
3.5 of the=20
    3.9?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;On SWBs, they are 3.9 from '89 on. Features of the 87 and =
88's=20
    include a manually locking diff, but they are 3.5. </DIV>
    <DIV>The 3.5 ain't bad, but the 3.9 has many improvements. I'm =
personally=20
    quite fond of the early 89s, but anything up&nbsp;between '89 and =
'92 should=20
    be a good balance of performance and simplicity. The LWBs have the=20
  4.2.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>6) What tranny do most prefer as far as auto vs. manual?<SPAN=20
    style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Which one seems more =
durable?<SPAN=20
    style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>How capable is the auto =
tranny=20
    off-road?<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>How =
are the=20
    manual trannys configured &#8211; 4 speed w/ OD or just 5 =
speed?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;All US spec RRs are auto, and they work great. The first =
year of=20
    the Disco (in the US - 1994) has a manual option. </DIV>
    <DIV>You should consider a Disco as well, they are marvelous trucks =
and can=20
    be had for a nice price, since there are more of them. Either way, =
the auto=20
    trans is the way to go - and I'm a 5-speed guy=20
  normally.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>7) What&#8217;s the real difference between the LWB and SWB =
models in terms=20
    of&nbsp; real space?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;I've heard quite a bit, but I've never owned one.=20
  </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR></FONT>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>8) Is a RR just a RR or are there different model sub-variants =
besides=20
    LWB and SWB versions?&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;The early Hunters were simple - cloth, manual sunroof, etc, =
and the=20
    later Hunters were more posh (or maybe it's the other way around). =
Great=20
    Divides have a shallower airdam, but basically there are two models: =
</DIV>
    <DIV>Standard and County. </DIV>
    <DIV>County has a chrome bumper, some wood inside and a few other=20
    niceties.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>9) What else should I know before seriously looking at one to=20
buy?</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;It's better to spend more money on one that's had a good =
life, than=20
    finding a trashed "bargain."</DIV>
    <DIV>If you spend $6k and need an engine rebuild and a tranny within =
a year,=20
    you'll have $13k into it if you do the work yourself and use rebuilt =
or used=20
    parts. Better to spend $8500 now and get a peach. They are out=20
  there.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>10) I have seen several on lrx.com that are listed at $5-8K =
with=20
    150-200K miles on them.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>At what=20
    point do these things get to be as much &#8220;trouble&#8221; as a =
Series truck.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt; Day one?</DIV>
    <DIV>Nah. Heed my words on the "hard life" thing. All 4wds are =
expensive to=20
    keep on the road, but they are more expensive exponentially if you =
get one=20
    that's done heavy off-roading - no exception.</DIV>
    <DIV>A decently maintained RR can go 250k easily. I have a pal who =
has=20
    nearly half a mil on his and he's thinking about rebuilding after =
one more=20
    winter. The ancillaries may fail over time, but the engine is good =
if you're=20
    nice to it - use good oil, change often, service the tranny, and for =
the=20
    love of god, don't run it hot!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:00ca01c0cdb6$290354c0$8aaecacf@k4g1e7" =
type=3D"cite">
    <DIV>11) What&#8217;s it usually take to make a stock RR a decent =
off road=20
    truck?<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Are they good =
to go as=20
    is or do people&nbsp; have to go to great lengths with various=20
    modifications.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>And I =
am talking=20
    cost here&nbsp; basically.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&gt;You say you want to do "light" off-roading, and I assume =
you'll=20
    keep the fun stuff (&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    ;)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ) to the Series truck. If so, stock =
is=20
    really nice. Find a good on and off-road hybrid tire. I personally =
hate the=20
    BFG All Terrain ( the "no terrain"...) but ask around. I like =
Dunlops,=20
    Coopers and Armstrongs. Fairly quiet on-road, and pretty good =
off-road.=20
    Balance often!</DIV>
    <DIV>Bilsteins and new bushings help, as do decent springs.</DIV>
    <DIV>I swear a stock RR will shame most trucks in the mud, and you =
can drive=20
    it to the theatre in style.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Where are you? I have friend in VA that has a nice one for =
sale.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Alex Maiolo</DIV>
    <DIV>Chapel Hill NC</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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