From fadushin@ecs.syr.edu Tue May 8 06:54:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: from mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (ecs.syr.edu [128.230.208.14]) by minbar.fourfold.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48AsCN31067 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 06:54:12 -0400 Received: (from fadushin@localhost) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) id f489p3l17710 for fadushin@www.ovlr.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f489p2W17707 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from works.team.net (IDENT:root@[216.35.192.58]) by syr.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA20027 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f488XZ009268 for lro-digest-gone; Tue, 8 May 2001 04:33:35 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 04:33:35 -0400 Message-Id: <200105080833.f488XZ009268@works.team.net> From: owner-lro-digest@works.team.net (LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * *) To: lro-digest@works.team.net Subject: LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #371 Reply-To: lro-digest@works.team.net Sender: owner-lro-digest@works.team.net Errors-To: owner-lro-digest@works.team.net Precedence: bulk X-Subscriptions: http://land-rover.team.net/majorcool/cgi-bin/majorcool.cgi LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * Tuesday, May 8 2001 Volume 01 : Number 371 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:15:26 -0400 From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" Subject: Re: LRO: crossed wires (was stalling, rough idling) Looked at the dizzy and saw #2 and #3 wires were hooked up wrong! So much better when they're in their correct spots but the darn thing ran. Amazing little lumps! Chris 70 SIIa 88 Yup - they are. Reminds me of the time I lost the head gasket between 2 and 3 on Mr. Churchill. Remains of it finally blew out on the highway in rush hour coming home from Boston. Ran the rest of the way home with it backfiring and running like crap but tootled along at 55 MPH.... Tough little buggers indeed. ajr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:46:46 -0400 From: Bill Adams Subject: Re: LRO: Advise on Range Rover Only buy it if you have ANOTHER 8K ready to plunk into the truck for unforseen repairs, which there will be many. - -- Bill Adams Motion Graphics/3D Design Director IBB Broadcast Design Center, Washington DC badams@ibb.gov 202-205-9638 1966 Land Rover 2A 109SW Diesel 1981 Honda GoldWing Standard 1963 Pearson Vanguard "Practicing the ancient art of ren-ching" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:54:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andre L. Shoumatoff" Subject: LRO: Re: Stalling/Rough Idling SIII > The only incorrect item on it is a Solex carb without emission control > rather than the Zenith unit. > When it starts, it puts out a white puff of smoke. This always happens, > when starting cold or warm. It did this before the new head gasket was > installed. > Also it is now idling idling roughly and sometimes stalls at idle. It > seems to "pop-pop-pop" like an old 2 cycle Saab, but does not backfire, > when going down hills in gear. It doesn't burn oil. > Ideas? Thanks! > Kurt Hello Kurt, As per some dead-on advice I received once when I had the same problem and had the exact same symtoms, I'd look around your exaust manifold for loose bolts or a leak somewhere in the connection to the head. It could also, secondly, be a poor connection between the exaust pipe and manifold where they meet at the bottom of the manifold. Those bolts could simply be not tightened enough. You should see some slighly black buildup there though, and/or can put your hand around the pipe when the engine and pipe are completely cold. Though I never had to replace my manifold, I was told it is real common for the main nuts which connect the manifold to the head to come loose. But I'd speculate given how recently it has been replaced it is probably not the problem. I was also told the Series III gaskets were somewhat prone to leaking versus the IIA one-piece gaskets, and finally the manifold could have simply arrived warped from wherever you got it from, but that is the worst case scenario that is least probable. So, start with the water trick. Remember to MAKE SURE the engine is cold when you do it, otherwise you could crack the manifold. Pour a little cold water around the connection between manifold and engine. Start her up, and look for bubbles. In my situation it turned out to be the connection between the exaust and manifold, and my symtoms were identical. Make sure you also don't put too many miles (hundreds to thousands) with it like this otherwise you could crack the manifold and possibly hurt the valves. Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 08:29:33 -0600 From: "Jim Hall" Subject: Re: LRO: uh oh, Jim's at it again... What do you think of nylon if I can't get copper locally? Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus wrote: > > I wouldn't use fiber - not sure what the oil will do to it. Go with flat > copper washers for oil pan plugs - they'll do... > > ajr - -- Jim Hall 1966 88" Elephant Chaser http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo "You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling with Jim." Mitch Stockdale ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:33:07 -0400 From: "RON WARD" Subject: Re: LRO: Exhaust manifold bolts!!! I'm a lazy bugger and I say stack some washers behind that nut! >>> dscheidt@tumbolia.com 05/06/01 10:22PM >>> On Sun, 6 May 2001, Kirk Hillman wrote: :David, : Great thought. It occurred to me that I should just cut them off and :rethread, but I was hoping to simply screw out the old ones and screw in new :ones that are shorter. In a perfect world it would be easier. :-) I don't :have a full set of taps and dies so I won't have one to match, what is the :thread on those do you suppose? 5/16-24, I think. Might be 5/16-18, if they're not fine threaded. It's really worth having a decent set of dies (and taps, but I use dies much more often on the the rover) to work on the Land-Rover. The fairly complete set of SAE taps and dies, including a tap holder, die wrench and thread pitch do-hickey was about $50 bucks from Sears. I run just about every bolt through a die before I put it back on, makes reassembly and the next diassembly much easier. David - -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 10:41:35 -0400 From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" Subject: Re: LRO: uh oh, Jim's at it again... Nylon makes me nervous - the stuff tends to flow under pressure. Copper should be easily available - even the local AutoZone carries 'em in a blister pack on the pegboard in various sizes. Or if you still have the old ones heat 'em up in a gas flame and quench - they'll be soft and reusable. I don't recommend this but it can be done..... ajr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 08:58:03 -0600 From: "Jim Hall" Subject: Re: LRO: uh oh, Jim's at it again... I'll check the parts store. The problem with reusing them is that I was missing 2 to start with. Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus wrote: > > Nylon makes me nervous - the stuff tends to flow under pressure. Copper > should be easily available - even the local AutoZone carries 'em in a > blister pack on the pegboard in various sizes. > > Or if you still have the old ones heat 'em up in a gas flame and quench - > they'll be soft and reusable. I don't recommend this but it can be > done..... > > ajr - -- Jim Hall 1966 88" Elephant Chaser http://www.users.qwest.net/~jimfoo "You know, I never really damaged my Rover 'till I started wheeling with Jim." Mitch Stockdale ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 10:38:23 -0600 From: "Coates, Clinton" Subject: LRO: UK Independent Land Rover Broker/Inspector All this talk of remote-buying a land rover from the UK has me thinking. I wonder if there is a market niche for someone over there to inspect a rover for a remote purchase? If I was going to be shelling out 7-10 k for a vehicle landed in NA, I would happily pay someone a couple-three hundred bucks to do a super picky inspection of the truck. Clinton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:58:04 -0400 From: Easton Trevor A Subject: LRO: RE: UK Independent Land Rover Broker/Inspector Yes, but what happens when the deal goes bad and you want to recover your losses from the poor unwary inspector? > If I was going to be shelling out 7-10 k for a > vehicle landed in NA, I would happily pay someone a couple-three hundred > bucks to do a super picky inspection of the truck. > > Clinton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:49:55 -0000 From: "N Forbes" Subject: LRO: SIII locks Hey folks, Anyone know how to get the lock barrels out of a set of SIII locks? Without the key? Can I drill them out or do I need to go to a locksmith? I've got a set of three matching lock barrels to install once I get the old ones out. How do I get these in? Is it pretty self evident once I get the thing apart? Thanks a lot. Niall Forbes 66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit Dartmouth, Nova Scotia The Nova Scotian Rover - http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/intro.htm "See the happy moron, He doesn't give a damn. I wish I were a moron. My God! Perhaps I am!" - --author unknown _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: 07 May 2001 13:12:08 -0500 From: george kase Subject: LRO: Series coil sprung chassis conversion? Anyone have experience with doing this? Any experience with Big Sky Rovers and their rolling chassis? thanks George Kase Chicago USA gkase@ccfc.com ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2001 11:13:08 PDT From: Casey McMullen Subject: Re: [LRO: tab washer/transmission/overdrive] I just put my Fairy OD back on after a gearbox rebuild using a new tab/lock washer. Only one of the tabs lined up, but more importantly the other tabs were a little bit too long. They stuck up just enough to keep the OD from sliding all the way on, quite frustrating until I realized. I ended up chiseling the little pieces of tab that stuck proud from the edge of the mainshaft nut. Do yourself a favor before installing/tightening the nut and trim enough off the ends of the tabs until the washer is the same max. diameter as the nut. Casey "Gerry Elam" wrote: > I had removed the overdrive on the Series III and using that special tool, > got the nut off the mainshaft along with the tab washer. > > I obtained a new tab washer from one of the best known suppliers but > yesterday, when I went to install it, none of the tabs lined up with the > tabs on the nut. Well, one will always line up, the second one is halfway > lined up and the third is completely blocked. > > I'll admit that this is my first time in this area of the LR but it seems > wrong that the tabs don't all line up. Did the vendor send me a wrong tab > washer? Is it that simple?! ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:16:09 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt Subject: Re: LRO: SIII locks On Mon, 7 May 2001, N Forbes wrote: :Hey folks, : :Anyone know how to get the lock barrels out of a set of SIII locks? :Without the key? Can I drill them out or do I need to go to a locksmith? Drill using a bit just a bit wider than the keyway, at the top. Someone posted very good instructions a year so ago. Anybody got a copy? DAvid - -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:16:09 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt Subject: Re: LRO: SIII locks On Mon, 7 May 2001, N Forbes wrote: :Hey folks, : :Anyone know how to get the lock barrels out of a set of SIII locks? :Without the key? Can I drill them out or do I need to go to a locksmith? Drill using a bit just a bit wider than the keyway, at the top. Someone posted very good instructions a year so ago. Anybody got a copy? DAvid - -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2001 11:18:41 PDT From: Casey McMullen Subject: Re: LRO: Exhaust manifold bolts/tap 'n die Everyone always says taps/dies are great to have around so I just bought a few. So how do you use these things effectively? I think I got a 1/4-28, and it seems like they cut too much thread off. As a test I ran the tap through a new nut, and ran a new bolt through the die. When fitted they had an extremely loose fit. Is the trick to only run the cutting edges part way through? Thanks, Casey David Scheidt wrote: > 5/16-24, I think. Might be 5/16-18, if they're not fine threaded. It's > really worth having a decent set of dies (and taps, but I use dies much more > often on the the rover) to work on the Land-Rover. The fairly complete set of > SAE taps and dies, including a tap holder, die wrench and thread pitch > do-hickey was about $50 bucks from Sears. I run just about every bolt > through a die before I put it back on, makes reassembly and the next > diassembly much easier. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 2001 11:27:17 PDT From: Casey McMullen Subject: Re: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] Do you mean Craddocks or Paddocks? I just placed a big (>$1000) order from Craddocks and it took forever! After a week I had to bother them to get a quote based on the detailed parts/numbers/catalog-prices list I had emailed and faxed. Then it took two more weeks for them to say, "Oh yeah, a few items are back ordered." So I said, "Please, I'm in a hurry, send whatever you have!" Another week later when I called they said, "Gee, there's no notation on this order to send right away, it should go out soon." It ended up taking about a month. Someone else told me a similar story with Craddocks, next time I'll probably go with Paddocks or someone else. Anyone care to comment on service level from various UK parts houses? YMMV, Casey "Hope Peter" wrote: > I was going to suggest the above and Cross Country and Craddocks. > ... > Paddocks is http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/welcome.htm ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:27:56 -0400 From: "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" Subject: Re: [LRO: tab washer/transmission/overdrive] The tabs provided by Fairey were a different size for just that reason...good FYI. ajr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:32:22 -0500 (CDT) From: David Scheidt Subject: Re: LRO: Exhaust manifold bolts/tap 'n die On 7 May 2001, Casey McMullen wrote: :Everyone always says taps/dies are great to have around so I just bought a :few. So how do you use these things effectively? I think I got a 1/4-28, and :it seems like they cut too much thread off. As a test I ran the tap through a :new nut, and ran a new bolt through the die. When fitted they had an :extremely loose fit. Is the trick to only run the cutting edges part way :through? Loose which way? Too easy to spin on, or is there longitudal movement? Nuts should be really easy to spin on. Most nuts and bolts at the hardware store have badly cut threads. For 1/4-28 a good sping ought to send the nut an inch or so down the threads. The nut shouldn't wobble up and down though. David - -- dscheidt@tumbolia.com Bipedalism is only a fad. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:58:08 -0600 From: Jeremy Subject: Re: LRO: UK Independent Land Rover Broker/Inspector I would too, but I'd probably be nice and pay them in pounds sterling :) Anyways, I do have some contacts through work who I may try and have inspect some of the trucks out there. I also may be able to get over there via work and/or the massive ammount of airline miles I have collected.. Coates, Clinton enlightened recipients with the following on 07May2001: > All this talk of remote-buying a land rover from the UK has me thinking. I > wonder if there is a market niche for someone over there to inspect a rover > for a remote purchase? If I was going to be shelling out 7-10 k for a > vehicle landed in NA, I would happily pay someone a couple-three hundred > bucks to do a super picky inspection of the truck. > > Clinton - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- heffner at darkness.net Darkness Network Engineering PGP public key available on request My thoughts and opinions represent no one but myself - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:15:19 -0400 From: Matt Peckham Subject: RE: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] to get back to the original topic, I got my SIII Lightweight from Skytop about 18 months ago, and while I had it off the road this winter (roadsalt) it's been a fine running Rover, by all the reports I have heard of other's vehicles. With little in the way of repairs, I did 6,000 miles last year, mainly daily commuting in traffic. and a few longer trips, NY to Boston, then to VT and Maine. And it ran like a champ. I have since suffered the non LMA blues, leaking brakes, but that will be fixed soon and I will be back on the road. I feel the price was fair about 5,500, as I had no time to do the search over the pond for my own Rover. I told him what I wanted, he sorta pushed me in certain directions (RHD offers a better selection than LHD, 24V are a more robust system) and I think they helped. while I can't readily find parts from the local suppliers, Skytop has a bunch of spares in case anything 24V does go out. and he's pretty good about knowing how to diagnose, especially over the phone. I know it's often hard to find the ones who are happy with their purchases, as the squeaky wheel gets the oil, but I thought i would relay my experiences. He also got me a hoopset and tailgate, and some extra mirrors to make my Rover more complete after the fact. He tries to please his customers, but some I feel are of the mindset that he is a swindler. There is no changing these mindsets, short of snipping the liner from his pockets, and even then, you have turned a skeptic into a less disgruntled skeptic. He has in recent months procured a shop, a mechanic (English no less), and has been offering more services for his customers (resprays being one), and has even been known to take in the odd Rangie for service, as a Range Rover seems to invoke $$$ in mechanic's eyes. email me off list if you want more info. Matt Peckham 74 Lightweight. _____ ||===||| | \ _||___|||__|__\_{EE}_ | ____ ____ \ | / \ / \|) [||( () )\_____|( () )[ ] ~~~~\~~/~~~~~~~~~\~~/~~~~~~~~~ www.crossmember.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:58:46 -0700 From: Paul Quin Subject: RE: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] I've had a similar experience with Craddock's. Ordered a Solex overhaul kit and some misc small parts through their website. Heard nothing for two weeks, sent four (4) e-mail inquiry's, was finally answered with "we did not receive your order". I had already re-ordered the kit from Paddock's and told Craddock's to cancel the order if they did find it. Sure enough, one month later I had the Craddock's order sitting in my mail box. Oh well, I now have an extra Solex overhaul kit. Paddock's was very prompt with their replies and shipped the entire order within 48 hours of my first e-mail. To Craddock's credit, they do have a lot of hard to find items... Paul in Victoria. -----Original Message----- I'll probably go with Paddocks or someone else. Anyone care to comment on service level from various UK parts houses? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:04:49 +0100 From: "Frank Elson" Subject: LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? Jim Wolf writes:>>> I have purchased parts ( frame, bulkhead etc) from P.A. Blanchard and have > no complaints at all. I have however, never purchased a vehicle > from him<< I have known a few people here in the UK who have bought Blanchard's vehicles with no problems. Best Cheers Frank +--+--+--+ I !__| [_]|_\___ I ____|"_|"__|_ | / B791 PKV "(o)======(o)" Bronze Green 110 CSW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 16:25:23 -0400 From: Keith Tanner Subject: Re: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] I've ordered from both Craddocks and Paddock. The first order was with Paddock - about 400 pounds sterling worth. Well, some bits were back-ordered and I had to keep calling to find out what was going on. Finally, they shipped everything out UPS Express before I had confirmed shipping methods - the day before I was heading over to the UK. Needless to say, the 185 quid shipping bill didn't make me terribly happy. Then UPS lost the parcel for two weeks and so I requested that Paddock put in for a refund. A month later (after the deadline) I found out that they hadn't - so not only did my "next day" service take a fortnight, I was unable to get my money back. I'm in no rush to deal with them again mostly because of the lack of service. The prices were good, though. With Craddocks, I was careful to ensure that everything was in stock so my order could go out right away. Well, they TOLD me it was in stock. But apparantly not, and a week after I needed the parts (and a couple of phone calls later) they showed up. With one bit missing. So not much better then. Again, excellent prices. Bad website, but at least the prices are there. Rovers North, on the other hand, has been exemplary. Fast, knowledgable and accurate. Fantastic website with a very clever ordering mechanism. And expensive. My favorite so far has been Atlantic British of Canada. Since they're on my side of the border, the shipping is cheap, there are no customs issues and they were very good to deal with. Plus they're far cheaper than RN. The biggest downside is that they don't have a website or online price lists, so I have to bother them each time I want to price something. I've gotta say, there's nothing like dealing with the Brits to appreciate how professional some of the North American vendors are. Keith Tanner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:35:53 -0300 From: "Matthias Eisengruber" Subject: Re: LRO: SIII locks



Hold your horses Niall. I do have the keys for them and one lock is already missing it's cylinder.
>From: "N Forbes"
>Reply-To: lro@works.team.net
>To: LRO@land-rover.team.net
>Subject: LRO: SIII locks
>Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 17:49:55 -0000
>
>Hey folks,
>
>Anyone know how to get the lock barrels out of a set of SIII locks?
>Without the key? Can I drill them out or do I need to go to a
>locksmith?
>
>I've got a set of three matching lock barrels to install once I get
>the old
>ones out. How do I get these in? Is it pretty self evident once I
>get the
>thing apart?
>
>Thanks a lot.
>
>Niall Forbes
>66 IIa 88SW - The Red Zit
>Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
>The Nova Scotian Rover -
>http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/forbes/intro.htm
>
>"See the happy moron,
>He doesn't give a damn.
>I wish I were a moron.
>My God! Perhaps I am!"
>--author unknown
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>http://www.hotmail.com.
>

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:52:35 -0700 From: "Rich Williams II" Subject: LRO: fuel tank liners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_01BB_01C0D6FC.F88767A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am taking my fuel tank in to the radiator shop to have them boil it = out but they do not do linings as they only do cleaning and repairs. = SO... does anyone have any suggestions on what is best to use to line = the tank with. I have heard that the POR15 stuff is pretty good. Any = other ideas - what about not lining it? Or is that just asking for = trouble down the road. Thanks,=20 Rich Williams '60 SII 109SW=20 - ------=_NextPart_000_01BB_01C0D6FC.F88767A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am taking my fuel tank in to the radiator shop to have them boil = it out=20 but they do not do linings as they only do cleaning and = repairs. =20 SO...  does anyone have any suggestions on what is best to use to = line the=20 tank with.  I have heard that the POR15 stuff is pretty good.  = Any=20 other ideas - what about not lining it?  Or is that just = asking for=20 trouble down the road.
 
Thanks,
 
Rich Williams
'60 SII 109SW 
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BB_01C0D6FC.F88767A0-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:30:22 -0400 From: "Lee Jones" Subject: RE: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] So far I've had pretty good service from Craddocks - I phoned them and got parts to rebuild a head in three days! Once they sent me the incorrect generator and when it was pointed out to them the sent me the correct one and didn't want the other one back (it did take an extra week while someone was on vacation to confirm it though). I have only gotten quotes from Paddocks and each time they showed a lot of the order on backorder so I went either with RN or Craddocks for genuine parts. Lee - -----Original Message----- From: owner-lro@works.team.net [mailto:owner-lro@works.team.net]On Behalf Of Casey McMullen Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 2:27 PM To: lro@works.team.net Subject: Re: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] Do you mean Craddocks or Paddocks? I just placed a big (>$1000) order from Craddocks and it took forever! After a week I had to bother them to get a quote based on the detailed parts/numbers/catalog-prices list I had emailed and faxed. Then it took two more weeks for them to say, "Oh yeah, a few items are back ordered." So I said, "Please, I'm in a hurry, send whatever you have!" Another week later when I called they said, "Gee, there's no notation on this order to send right away, it should go out soon." It ended up taking about a month. Someone else told me a similar story with Craddocks, next time I'll probably go with Paddocks or someone else. Anyone care to comment on service level from various UK parts houses? YMMV, Casey "Hope Peter" wrote: > I was going to suggest the above and Cross Country and Craddocks. > ... > Paddocks is http://www.johncraddockltd.co.uk/welcome.htm ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:44:48 +0100 From: "Phil Norris" Subject: LRO: Re: UK Independent Land Rover Broker/Inspector Could there be an auto club arrangement where a US club could commission an inspection from the AA or RAC?? Most of the UK orgs do pre-purchase inspections for a "fairly high" fee. They all run Landies to cover wilder parts so should have a fair idea..... PhilN - -----Original Message----- From: Coates, Clinton To: 'lro-digest@Works.Team.Net' Date: 07 May 2001 17:46 Subject: LRO: UK Independent Land Rover Broker/Inspector >All this talk of remote-buying a land rover from the UK has me thinking. I >wonder if there is a market niche for someone over there to inspect a rover >for a remote purchase? If I was going to be shelling out 7-10 k for a >vehicle landed in NA, I would happily pay someone a couple-three hundred >bucks to do a super picky inspection of the truck. > >Clinton > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:36:05 -0400 From: William L Leacock Subject: LRO: tab washer Gerry The tab washer is designed so that only one of the tabs lines up. One tab is suffiicient to lock the nut. Beware that if you use a standard tab washer the two remaining tabs are too long and will prevent the over drive from fitting. Check that the tabs do not protrude beyond the root diamater of the overdrive gear. if they do, shorten them! Regards from Western New York State Bill Leacock. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:49:32 -0400 From: William L Leacock Subject: LRO: Peirce WEbber manifold When using the Pierce manifold with the standard exhaust manifold it is necessary to fit a blanking plate over the hole in the manifold. Be careful when choosing a plate to cover the hole, there is not much clearance, and if you make the plate too thin it will warp and not seal. ISTR approx 3/16 inch will wrok, but if you hear a manifold hiss on start up then reduce the thickness, or file some material off the manifold, ( Be careful, it's not very thick!) It is necesary to replace the studs with hex head screws, since the clearance under the manifold is insufficient to use the variuos suggestions made regarding spacers etc.. Regards from Western New York State Bill Leacock. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 19:38:27 -0400 From: "d.h.lowe" Subject: Re: LRO: LMA vs. DOT 4 DoT standards are a "performance standard". They lay down the minimums and maximums and the product has to meet those requirements. They do not specify what it has to be made from. Dave Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus wrote: > >Your brake system will be happy with any brake fluid that is rated DOT4. > >Most auto parts store carries at least one brand of DOT4 fluid. > > I am very sorry to disagree but not all DOT4 fluids are the same. I have > personally had hydraulic system failures from using a fluid that while DOT4 > was not Castrol - it promptly dissolved all my seals.Pyroil was the name - > and I haven't used any other than Castrol since. > > Natural rubber seals (Girling and he like) require a fluid different from > the standard American and European synthetic rubber seals. Specifically, > the seals can't contain mineral-oil products else the rubber swells and > dissolves. > > DOT ratings are for boiling, NOT chemical composition. > > ajr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 01 15:50:45 -0700 From: TeriAnn Wakeman Subject: Re: [LRO: tab washer/transmission/overdrive] >I just put my Fairy OD back on after a gearbox rebuild using a new tab/lock >washer. Only one of the tabs lined up, but more importantly the other tabs >were a little bit too long. They stuck up just enough to keep the OD from >sliding all the way on, quite frustrating until I realized. I ended up >chiseling the little pieces of tab that stuck proud from the edge of the >mainshaft nut. Do yourself a favor before installing/tightening the nut and >trim enough off the ends of the tabs until the washer is the same max. >diameter as the nut. When I purchased Superwinch OD I seem to remember it coming with a special tab washer. I guess it was just a little shorter than the Land Rover one. Good advice TeriAnn Wakeman Marigold Ltd. Santa Cruz, California Web design, site updating, testing webmaster@overlander.net search engine optimization, graphics and more http://www.overlander.net/Marigold/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:07:56 -0700 From: "Nick Eckert" Subject: LRO: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED - Replacement of Syncromesh Detent Springs Well, I did it. I'd like to thank all the internet help I got from Bill Leacock and phone support I got from my friends Gord'n and Pat. It really is a tedious job, but quite do able in 1 day at a leasurely pace. The easy part was removing the old piece as I found 1/2 in the syncromesh assy and the other half when I drained the oil. The hardest part was aligning the new spring to go into the slot without being able to see the slot. Tools required inside tranny: Surgical Forceps Long Needle Nose Pliers Long, Skinny Flat tip screwdriver and lots of patience! :-) Cheers, Nickster 1971 SIII 'Grommit' with the red bonnet 1961 SII 2.5TD Coiler Hybrid, soon to be intercooled ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 21:05:15 -0300 From: john.cranfield@ns.sympatico.ca (John Cranfield) Subject: LRO: Moose Trophy Rally There will be a night Offroad run Thursday for those arriving early at the Moose Trophy Rally Cranfield Farm at 8 pm. John and Muddy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 21:02:00 -0400 From: "RON WARD" Subject: LRO: Solex Carb Accelerator Pump Well, the British Motor Car Day in North Georgia is this Saturday and tonight the Solex on my 1965 IIa 88" decides to spring a leak. Looks like it is coming from the pump diaphram and not so much the gasket that goes between the pump assembly and the carb body. I already have the gasket kit from RN (which I'd hoped contained the diaphram but it doesn't..just the seals) and I see they offer the accelerator pump membrane also. The green bible doesn't go into a lot of detail on rebuilding the pump assembly. Assuming I can get it, just the assembly, removed tonight, anyone have a suggestion or advice for working on this tempermental pump unit? I really need to get this jewel fixed so I can safely make the 300 mile round trip on Saturday!! TIA Ron Ward ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 21:06:02 EDT From: HeirPhoto@aol.com Subject: Re: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] - --part1_e6.1512340e.2828a07a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt, Thanks for the positive feedback on Gabor and Skytop Rovers. I had met him once and looked over some of his vehicles a few months before he aquired the shop. He seemed very eager to please and I have no problem with him making a few dollars in the process. Seems safer than buying offshore. Tony Miller 73 Lightweight ANTHONY D. MILLER & Co. ~ The Tintype Artist ~ Ambrotypes & Ferrotypes 34 Perryfalls Place Baltimore, Maryland 21236 410-256-7442 www.tintype-artist.com - --part1_e6.1512340e.2828a07a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt,
Thanks for the positive feedback on Gabor and Skytop Rovers. I had met him
once and looked over some of his vehicles a few months before he aquired the
shop. He seemed very eager to please and I have no problem with him making a
few dollars in the process. Seems safer than buying offshore.
Tony Miller
73 Lightweight

ANTHONY D. MILLER & Co.
       ~ The Tintype Artist ~
     Ambrotypes & Ferrotypes
          34 Perryfalls Place
   Baltimore, Maryland 21236
                410-256-7442
      www.tintype-artist.com
- --part1_e6.1512340e.2828a07a_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 03:52:09 -1000 From: "Hope Peter" Subject: Re: [LRO: Re: Re: ser3 importers? skytop? Others? ] > Do you mean Craddocks or Paddocks? Meant Craddocks. I have only dealt with Craddocks and LR Marketplace from the UK. Positive experiance both times. Yes I spent about a week or two emailing back and forth to get an agreement on the parts needed, prices and shipping. After I placed the order, I had the parts in under 14 days. Yes, if I order from RN or BP I have the stuff within 7 days of first contact. But for the savings I can be patiant. One order in particular was 1000 at RN prices, plus shipping. My bill from LRM for the parts and shipping was under 700. I was planning on using Craddocks for the vehicle and some other used parts I want. Pete ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:11:11 -0600 From: "Kirk Hillman" Subject: LRO: Re: Peirce WEbber manifold Bill, Right you are about there not being enough room. Your idea about the bolts is ideal. I just can't get the darn studs out. I will continue to work on it but I may resort to cutting them to about 1/2" and thread the last bit for a nut. The plate sent to me is about 3/16... could be 1/4". I don't know but I will check. I was going to whip up one from 1/8" plate. At least then with the short studs and/or bolts and a thinner plate I could remove the intake manifold without taking half the engine bay apart! :-) Kirk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 04:40:16 -1000 From: "Hope Peter" Subject: LRO: Re: Series coil sprung chassis conversion? Big Sky Not personally, but this subject has come up a few times in the past, havenot heard a single positive comment yet. Overpriced, failure to deliver, etc. http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1997/970830.html http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1998/980124.html http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1996/960118.html Yeah they are old, but the recent archives are not searchable. Pete ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:35:54 +0100 From: Ian Stuart Subject: LRO: 2.6 gearbox onto 2-ltr engine does go (eventually) I'm rebuilding a Series 1 (80", with late 2-ltr engine) and have a dribbly gearbox to deal with. I'd been told that the all-syncro gearbox from the 2.6, 6-cylinder, engine fitted the 2-ltr engine in Series 1's - and managed to aquire one for 100 quid, with (new) clutch-plate and pressure-plate. I can confirm that it does go in, but it's not a simple bolt-on job. 1) On the 80", the bellhousing crossmember wraps up quite close to the bellhousing - and the SIII's clutch slave-cylinder won't fit. You can't swap the 2.6's bellhousing for one from the 2-ltr engine as the layshafts are different diameters, as are the front bearings. You need to chop & weld the crossmember to make clearance. 2) There is a stud where the SIII slave-cylinder sits, which is not used: " Alex was round again last night, helping me fit the gearbox. We shoved the 'box backwards, and seated the engine in place. We then spent an hour shoving, pushing, lifting, pulling, and twisting - all to get the d*mn gearbox to fit : and it just would not seat. The clutch-plate was fine (we checked, even though the pressure plate and clutch plate came with the gearbox); the spare flywheel housing nestled against the bellhousing lovely (two studs just to ensure it lined-up OK); Starter-motor out in case *that* was holding thing back. ** It just would not go IN! ** In the end, we decided to open the holes out to 12mm - to see if there was a slight warp somewhere. As I was about half way round, I noticed that there was a spot of very shiney metal just beside the slave-cylinder housing. "Alex, how many studs do you have, between the starter-motor hole and the bottom of the gearbox?", I asked him. "Five, why?", he replied. "'Cos I've got four holes and a shiny spot!", I answered.. It turns out that there the 2.6 gearbox uses one less stud that the 2-ltr gearbox. With the stud removed, it slotted into place as sweet and easy as anything! Grrrrr!!!! " - -- --==**==-- Ian Stuart - EdINA, DataLibrary, University computing services. - --------------------------------- A man depriving some village, somewhere, of a first-class idiot. - --------------------------------- http://lucas.ucs.ed.ac.uk/ ------------------------------ End of LRO Mailing List DIGEST * * * * V1 #371 ********************************************** From fadushin@ecs.syr.edu Tue May 8 12:34:44 2001 Return-Path: Received: from mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (ecs.syr.edu [128.230.208.14]) by minbar.fourfold.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48GYhN31571 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:34:43 -0400 Received: (from fadushin@localhost) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) id f48FVV528464 for fadushin@www.ovlr.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f48FVVW28461 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from works.team.net (IDENT:root@[216.35.192.58]) by syr.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18419 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f48FEsT14359 for lro-gone; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:14:54 -0400 Received: from kabru.pinn.net (kabru.pinn.net [198.252.201.11]) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48FEh614349 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:14:43 -0400 Received: from rover.pinn.net (orf-max-5-24.pinn.net [216.9.74.152]) by kabru.pinn.net (8.11.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id f48Exik01512 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.20010508102334.0068dc04@pinn.net> X-Sender: rover@pinn.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:16:44 -0400 To: lro-digest@works.team.net From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" Subject: LRO: crossed wires Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-lro@works.team.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lro@works.team.net X-Subscriptions: http://land-rover.team.net/majorcool/cgi-bin/majorcool.cgi >>Looked at the dizzy and saw #2 and #3 wires were hooked up wrong! So >>much better when they're in their correct spots but the darn thing ran. >>Amazing little lumps! >Chris and "Alan Richer/CAM/Lotus" added: >Yup - they are. >Reminds me of the time I lost the head gasket between 2 and 3 on Mr. >Churchill. Remains of it finally blew out on the highway in rush hour >coming home from Boston. Ran the rest of the way home with it backfiring >and running like crap but tootled along at 55 MPH.... >Tough little buggers indeed. That's nothing...I've seen an engine run (poorly) *backwards*. A friend had just purchased a junker he was going to break up for parts. Terminal frame/bulkhead cancer, while the engine was well and truly knackered, barely registering any compression. It was a filthy, crud-encrusted lump, severly abused by the PO, or rather, series of PO's. The battery was flat so we hand-cranked it. The ignition must've been way advanced, 'cause it kicked back, fired and continued to run...in reverse! Exhaust was chuffin' out the carb an we just stood there in amazement for a minute or so until whatever 'fuel' it had gave out and it quit. The same engine was later made to run on *one* cylinder! We eventually got it running the right way 'round, but it still didn't sound like it was firing on all cylinders. My friend pulled one spark plug wire after another to isolate the misfire, 'til only one was connected and yet it still ran.... Cheers *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----* | | | A. P. ("Sandy") Grice | | Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd. | | 1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730 | |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 | | www.roav.org | | (original owner) (pre-production) | *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----* From fadushin@ecs.syr.edu Tue May 8 12:34:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: from mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (ecs.syr.edu [128.230.208.14]) by minbar.fourfold.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48GYsN31585 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:34:54 -0400 Received: (from fadushin@localhost) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) id f48FVj028476 for fadushin@www.ovlr.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f48FVjW28473 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from works.team.net (IDENT:root@[216.35.192.58]) by syr.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18471 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f48FErf14358 for lro-gone; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:14:53 -0400 Received: from kabru.pinn.net (kabru.pinn.net [198.252.201.11]) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48FEj614353 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:14:45 -0400 Received: from rover.pinn.net (orf-max-5-24.pinn.net [216.9.74.152]) by kabru.pinn.net (8.11.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id f48Exjk01518 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.20010508104249.0068dc04@pinn.net> X-Sender: rover@pinn.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:16:45 -0400 To: lro-digest@works.team.net From: "A. P. \"Sandy\" Grice" Subject: LRO: Makin' the grade Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-lro@works.team.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lro@works.team.net X-Subscriptions: http://land-rover.team.net/majorcool/cgi-bin/majorcool.cgi "d.h.lowe" wrote: >DoT standards are a "performance standard". They lay down the minimums and >maximums and the product has to meet those requirements. They do not specify >what it has to be made from. Indeed...but with one exception. DoT 5 is silicone fluid. DoT 3 or 4 fluids can be made of whatever, as long as the fluid is up to specs: specific grvity and boiling point. To continue with this thread, even the Brits eventually realized that continued use of natural rubber in brake components was Very A Bad Idea, so they swapped over to neoprene or somesuch compound. I'm thinking this was in the early to mid-1980's. Does anyone know when for sure? *----jeep may be famous, LAND-ROVER is Legendary----* | | | A. P. ("Sandy") Grice | | Rover Owners' Association of Virginia, Ltd. | | 1633 Melrose Pkwy., Norfolk, VA 23508-1730 | |(O)757-622-7054, (H)757-423-4898, FAX 757-622-7056 | | www.roav.org | | (original owner) (pre-production) | *----1972 Series III------1996 Discovery SE-7(m)----* From fadushin@ecs.syr.edu Tue May 8 15:13:23 2001 Return-Path: Received: from mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (ecs.syr.edu [128.230.208.14]) by minbar.fourfold.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48JDNN31965 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:13:23 -0400 Received: (from fadushin@localhost) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) id f48IAEZ06329 for fadushin@www.ovlr.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f48IAEW06326 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from works.team.net (IDENT:root@[216.35.192.58]) by syr.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28653 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f48I0dE16286 for lro-gone; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:00:39 -0400 Received: from nwcst313.netaddress.usa.net (nwcst313.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.23.58]) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f48I0a616282 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:00:36 -0400 Received: (qmail 1763 invoked by uid 60001); 8 May 2001 18:00:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20010508180032.1762.qmail@nwcst313.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.23.58 by nwcst313 for [204.193.180.43] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.17C.01) on Tue May 8 18:00:31 GMT 2001 Date: 8 May 2001 12:00:31 MDT From: jjp4 To: Subject: LRO: tub adjestment X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.17C.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by works.team.net id f48I0a616283 Sender: owner-lro@works.team.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lro@works.team.net X-Subscriptions: http://land-rover.team.net/majorcool/cgi-bin/majorcool.cgi This past weekend I removed the Tub from my 5-door 109 and replaced it with another. This is not going as smoothly as I had hoped. First I could not find any information on tub removal for the 5-door, found plenty for the 88 and regular 109. I called RN for "technical help" what I received I would not call technical, I could guess better than the help they offered. I even left my # 3 different days in a row without a call back. Sorry for the ramblings. What I would like to know is has anyone replaced the tub on a 5-door, what were the problems if any getting the tub, doors and top re-adjusted. What is the best way to get everything readjusted? Did the pop rivet holes line up, are they suppose to? Thank you Joe Palecek ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 From fadushin@ecs.syr.edu Tue May 8 19:11:13 2001 Return-Path: Received: from mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (ecs.syr.edu [128.230.208.14]) by minbar.fourfold.org (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48NBDN32574 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 19:11:13 -0400 Received: (from fadushin@localhost) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) id f48M85S16307 for fadushin@www.ovlr.org; Tue, 8 May 2001 18:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from syr.edu (syr.edu [128.230.1.49]) by mailroom.ecs.syr.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f48M84W16304 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 18:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from works.team.net (IDENT:root@[216.35.192.58]) by syr.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22317 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 18:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f48Luol17814 for lro-gone; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:56:50 -0400 Received: from barebones.com (mail.barebones.com [204.107.232.35]) by works.team.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f48Luj617809 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:56:45 -0400 Received: from 204.107.232.114 ([204.107.232.114] verified) by barebones.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.1) with ESMTP id 1004987 for lro-digest@works.team.net; Tue, 08 May 2001 17:56:36 -0400 Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 17:58:19 -0400 From: "David G. Russell" Subject: LRO: Trail Access To: lro-digest@works.team.net X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <20010508175821-r01010600-f271fa82@204.107.232.114> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: Mailsmith 1.1.6 (Bluto) Sender: owner-lro@works.team.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lro@works.team.net X-Subscriptions: http://land-rover.team.net/majorcool/cgi-bin/majorcool.cgi Just looking for some feedback. The rules for driving off hwy in NH are simple, as long as you have written access from the land owner, be it public or private, you're good to go. I've been told by the state fish and game dept. that DeLorme maps (similar to the British Ordnance Survey Maps?) are not reliable indicators of what smaller roads are actually legally passible so it's _always_ best to get written permission. So far, I haven't gotten a whole lotta letters in my mailbox from generous private citizens, cities, and towns, etc. inviting me to come drive on their land. Therefore, I'm going to have to initiate this myself. I'd like to be able to approach a land owner with a solid plan that has no risk to him/her and if possible, some sort of benefit. In no particular order I've come up with the following: 1. Liability waiver I know in our litigious society this may not hold up but something's gotta be better than nothing. If anyone has a sample waiver they could e-mail me it would be helpful. 2. Limited and Specific Number of Vehicles I think someone will be much more receptive if we have a specific plan. I.e., We'd like to bring five vehicles Saturday between 0900-1500. We're not yahoos, will observe the Tread Lightly rules, won't cut new trails, etc. 3. Pack out more than we Pack in This would be a benefit to the land owner. I know that in our town forest we come across a lot of trash and empty cans of really bad beer. If we could say to the landowner, look, we're going to pick up as much trash as we can carry for no cost to you they might think twice about saying no. 4. Trail Maintenance Offering to perform trail maintenance might raise liability issues but it might be worth offering. 5. After trip report Rather than "eat and run" it might generate some good will to thank the land owner, in writing, and describe what happened. Does anyone have any thoughts they'd like to share? Thanks. David